1 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:09,880 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:22,480 Speaker 2: Our former model is over. This is not the same world. 3 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 2: We are over regulating an underinvesting. If we follow our 4 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 2: classical agenda, we will be out of the market. 5 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:31,160 Speaker 3: I have no doubt. 6 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:36,200 Speaker 1: Welcome back to voter Nomics, where politics and markets collide. 7 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:38,800 Speaker 1: This year, voters around the world have the ability to 8 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: move markets, countries and economies like never before, so we 9 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 1: created this series to help you make sense of it all. 10 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:47,520 Speaker 1: I'm Stephanie Flanders. 11 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 4: I'm Adrian Wooldridge, and I'm Alegri Stratton. Steph's good to 12 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:51,240 Speaker 4: have you back from Berlin. 13 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 1: Yes, so I was there to host a panel. You 14 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 1: just heard a bit of it. Conversation on stage with 15 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 1: the French President, Emmanuel Macron doesn't happen every day, and 16 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 1: you just heard from him at the top of the show. 17 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 1: And it was a slightly strange setup in this that 18 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 1: I was on stage mainly talking to Macron, but the 19 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: chairman of the big event that was being held, the 20 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 1: Berlin Global Dialogue, Lars Hendrik Roller, was also up on 21 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 1: stage and we were supposed to be focusing on Europe's 22 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:23,959 Speaker 1: role in a multipolar future. But I obviously wanted to 23 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: also get him some questions about the state of things 24 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:28,320 Speaker 1: in France. We've obviously had several months where there was 25 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 1: a lot of uncertainty about what the government was going 26 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 1: to be. 27 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 4: So how did you find him? Was he sort of 28 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 4: sort of normal, feistyself. 29 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 1: For he did do about sort of ten or fifteen 30 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 1: minutes of remarks, and you were mainly reminded and what 31 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 1: a great speaker he is, but who also does a 32 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 1: very good job of just sounding like he really cares. 33 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 1: And this is his sort of cri de cour that 34 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 1: he wants to save Europe, and he's still trying to 35 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 1: save Europe, even though he's really probably further away from 36 00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 1: it than he was when he came into office in 37 00:01:58,640 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 1: twenty seventy. 38 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 5: Did you think he was a operation in the sense 39 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 5: that he prepared very carefully for encountering you or. 40 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 1: Is this just himlater on? He did seem to be 41 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 1: like many people on the street in Germany who asked 42 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 1: me directions, they I, somehow do look German and so, 43 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:15,919 Speaker 1: and he seemed to think I was German, which was fine, 44 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:17,519 Speaker 1: except for I was kind of surprised that he was 45 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 1: going to be on stage, would be for an hour, 46 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 1: and none of his staff had bothered to say, by 47 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:23,080 Speaker 1: the way, this woman's actually British and she's an economist 48 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 1: or whatever. So that was quite a sort of entertaining aspect. 49 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 1: He kept on like saying, well, you care very much 50 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 1: in this country about cars, and I was like, you know, 51 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 1: don't look at em. 52 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 5: But he seemed extraordinarily jaunty given the circumstances in France. 53 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:39,799 Speaker 1: I mean, I did think that, and obviously afterwards one's 54 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:42,240 Speaker 1: always thinking, oh, you know, it should have been been tougher. 55 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:44,799 Speaker 1: I mean, if there is a sort of a tragic 56 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 1: arc to his time in office, if you remember when 57 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 1: he came in, he'd obviously had that extraordinary, very rapid 58 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 1: assent to the presidency, having been really more of an 59 00:02:56,560 --> 00:03:00,560 Speaker 1: advisor figure only a year earlier or junior minister, and 60 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:03,240 Speaker 1: he said he remember he went to the World Economic 61 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 1: Forum and devils, he said, France is back. He had 62 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:08,239 Speaker 1: lots of kind of reaching out to business, some of 63 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 1: which was very successful. If you think post Brexit the 64 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 1: number of banks and others that have been attracted to Paris. 65 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:16,639 Speaker 1: He really did quite a lot in the labor market 66 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 1: to get people back to work. Unemployment have been stuck 67 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:21,919 Speaker 1: over ten percent for years in France, down to seven, 68 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 1: stuck at seven now. But he's done quite a lot. 69 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 1: He did the pension reform with those enormous demonstrations, massive 70 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 1: political cost, and you step back and you think, what 71 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 1: has all that achieved. Public spending is still among the 72 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 1: highest in Europe, very fractionally lower than it was when 73 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 1: he came in office, budget deficits actually much worse than 74 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 1: it was, and he's got a government now that he 75 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 1: can't control, that is actually is hemmed in by the 76 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 1: far right and the far lane. 77 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 5: It also struck me that, you know, he conducted this 78 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 5: extraordinary experiment in sort of creating a populism of the 79 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 5: center of sort of trying to marry populism with technocratic 80 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 5: politics in order to draw the poison out of populism, 81 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 5: and it hasn't done that. It's actually further polarized and 82 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 5: already polarized system. 83 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 1: That is the extraordinary thing. It did seem like a 84 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: mistake to have called that snap election after the European 85 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:18,440 Speaker 1: election results. You're here. He defends that absolutely and says, actually, 86 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 1: if he hadn't done that, he would be in no 87 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 1: better situation now because the same question marks would be 88 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:26,279 Speaker 1: hanging over his agenda. But the truth is, you know, 89 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 1: whether that's right or wrong, he is for the rest 90 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 1: of his term probably going to have to sort of 91 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:34,600 Speaker 1: stand by. And the best hope is that what he's 92 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 1: done so far doesn't get reversed because any effort to 93 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 1: push forward with any of these big reforms. You know, 94 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 1: but Marie La Penn can bring down this government just 95 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:45,719 Speaker 1: by calling a confidence vote tomorrow. 96 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 4: But to me, there's such schizophrenia at the top of 97 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:53,039 Speaker 4: Europe now where you've got and I wonder how much 98 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:55,480 Speaker 4: you know you've sort of observed this talking to him, 99 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:58,279 Speaker 4: because you're talking to him in Germany where right now 100 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:02,279 Speaker 4: this week we've got on the one and Germany and 101 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:06,840 Speaker 4: the EUEU tariffs on Chinese evs they don't want them 102 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:08,840 Speaker 4: and France does want them. And then on the other hand, 103 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 4: as you also talked to him about later, there's this 104 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:14,480 Speaker 4: division between himself and Schultz over what they should do 105 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 4: with the free trade deal with the South Americans. So 106 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:20,040 Speaker 4: outside looking across to them, they look to have such 107 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 4: a schizophrenia right at the top. 108 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:23,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that's even evident in his own 109 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 1: policy towards China right, because you know, he's at one 110 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:30,480 Speaker 1: hand saying absolutely, we have to have a level playing field. 111 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:33,360 Speaker 1: I'm going to be tough, and he's pushing these tariffs 112 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:36,479 Speaker 1: on Chinese electric vehicles, which you know, we were sitting 113 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:40,279 Speaker 1: in Berlin. The previous panel had involved someone from Mercedes 114 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:43,919 Speaker 1: Benz and indeed one of the German ministers both saying 115 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:45,920 Speaker 1: we can't do it. And it's this situation which speaks 116 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 1: to our mutual depend you know, the dependence of the 117 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 1: German model on China. The German car industry does not 118 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 1: want tariffs on the Chinese imported electric vehicles because they 119 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:59,039 Speaker 1: export so much to China and they don't want the retaliation. 120 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:03,840 Speaker 1: In Germany in particular, there's that schizophrenia. But even France, 121 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 1: on the one hand, is talking about taris, on the 122 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 1: other hand, is desperately trying to get investment from China 123 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 1: to France. Come to France, don't come to Germany. You know, 124 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:14,279 Speaker 1: they're playing off each other even as they speak, say 125 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:15,720 Speaker 1: they want to speak in one voice. 126 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:17,839 Speaker 5: It struck me also that there was an extraordy schizophrenia 127 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 5: in what he was saying. On the one hand, he 128 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 5: sounds georgy, He sounds self confident, but underneath it all 129 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:25,599 Speaker 5: there's a deep worry, I mean a really deep worry 130 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:28,040 Speaker 5: about the state of Europe and its capacity to address 131 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:30,479 Speaker 5: its problems. And it struck me. I wonder if there 132 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:33,480 Speaker 5: was a that there was a presumption in the title 133 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:36,920 Speaker 5: of your piece of your interview about Europe in a 134 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:39,720 Speaker 5: multipolar world, which is just wrong. It's not a multipolar 135 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:43,480 Speaker 5: world any more. It's US versus China, and it's US 136 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 5: versus China that's determining you know, electric vehicles and that 137 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 5: sort of playing field. But also if you look at 138 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 5: what's happening in the Middle East, Europe isn't playing a part. 139 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:52,919 Speaker 5: It's all us. 140 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:55,160 Speaker 1: You're quite right, you know, we have our own economists 141 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 1: have our economists have done analysis that shows how far 142 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: Europe's fall behind in terms of its potential growth. I 143 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:04,599 Speaker 1: think it's about a gap of about twenty percent of 144 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 1: GDPs opened up in the last few years and that 145 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 1: we think would grow to forty percent. You know, European 146 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 1: Union being forty percent smaller in terms of its potential 147 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 1: output than the US. That's in a generation of a 148 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 1: massive shift in the relative standings. I would say, I 149 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 1: guess my passing thought on this is that we will 150 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 1: miss him because there are many European leaders. In fact, 151 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 1: he may be the only one. I felt as we 152 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 1: were leaving that could that could go on one of 153 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 1: those US Party convention stages and deliver a knockout. 154 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 5: Speech anyone after blur no blurse, Yes, but I. 155 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 1: Mean Blair not being a European leader any ayre you 156 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 1: might want to be. I think, you know, and despite 157 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 1: the fact that he is in fact French, I think 158 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 1: he's the only one who could represent Europe on that 159 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 1: kind of stage, and he does have a pretty sharp 160 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 1: idea of what is at stake in Europe. Continuing to 161 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 1: slip behind well after all that, we should hear that 162 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 1: interview with the French President Emmanuel Macron. You will also 163 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 1: hear I asked a few questions to Lars Henry Kbrawler. 164 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 1: He was Chancellor Merkle's chief advisor for a long time. 165 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 1: He's been around the block. You will hear. He wasn't 166 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 1: keen to be critical of his own government, but he 167 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 1: did speak to some of the questions that we talked about. 168 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 1: Thank you very much, Monsieur and Las Henri. Thank you 169 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 1: for joining us again. You mentioned a few times Mario 170 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 1: Dragui's report, I think he'd read your so on speech 171 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 1: from April. Some of it read sounded like you, and 172 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 1: he certainly he framed the debate about European compectiveness in 173 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: a similarly stark way as an existential challenge facing the 174 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 1: European model. And as you mentioned, he proposed some very 175 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 1: concrete steps, some of them quite difficult, some of them expensive, 176 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:07,839 Speaker 1: for moving Europe away from this path of decline. How 177 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 1: many of those do you think will be implemented while 178 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 1: you are French president. 179 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 2: Look, thank you very much and I'm happy to be 180 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 2: here with a roller, and thank you for organizing the 181 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 2: seventh Look, I hope the maximum number of items, because 182 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:31,200 Speaker 2: I already believe that we are at risk. To be honest, 183 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:36,080 Speaker 2: and it's just a word. I think our own model 184 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 2: was completely changed and has to be research. And when 185 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:46,439 Speaker 2: you look at the European model, largely based by the 186 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 2: way on the strength of German during Germany during the 187 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 2: past decade, we were based on exports and a big 188 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 2: part of the key industry are making industry to China. 189 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:04,440 Speaker 2: We were based on lo cost energy, Russian gas. We 190 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 2: were based on different sombrella from the US without any question, 191 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 2: and everything now is shaken. China has over capacities and 192 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:18,960 Speaker 2: is clearly a competitive place, so it's no more secured 193 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:23,440 Speaker 2: place for our exports. Russian war killed lo cost energy 194 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 2: and the killer of our competitiveness today is a big 195 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:29,199 Speaker 2: gap in terms of energy prices everywhere. This is why 196 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:31,440 Speaker 2: we have to completely change our business and have an 197 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 2: integrated energy model, because we can deliver with nuclear and renewables, 198 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:44,479 Speaker 2: but not without being integrated. And very clearly post Afghanistan, 199 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 2: some people can have doubts and the potential change in 200 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 2: leadership in the US means that this is not a 201 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 2: guarantee total total. So this is I want to insist 202 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 2: on that because it's super important to assess fairly the 203 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 2: fact that our former model is and this is not 204 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:04,680 Speaker 2: a question of adjustment. This is not the same world 205 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 2: twenty twenty four, twenty twenty five. And on top of that, 206 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 2: we are making the same mistakes. On top of the 207 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 2: key elements I mentioned, we are overregulating and underinvesting. So 208 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 2: just if in the two to three years to come, 209 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 2: if we follow our classical agenda, we will be out 210 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 2: of the market, I have no doubt. So I think 211 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 2: what we have to deliver in the two three years 212 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 2: to come is capital market union. My view is that 213 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:35,080 Speaker 2: we have to rush on energy beyond what we already decided, 214 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 2: which will be implemented for twenty twenty six, which will 215 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 2: avoids the big pick and the unstability of the energy 216 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 2: market we had during the past few years. We corrected that, 217 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 2: but we have to go much faster and further, and 218 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:54,440 Speaker 2: we need this investment shock I mentioned, and I think 219 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:59,680 Speaker 2: the simplification agenda and let's say pose in terms of regulation, 220 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 2: but even the regulation in some issues it's absolutely critical. 221 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 1: Can you have that investment shop without issuance of joint debt? 222 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 2: I think you know, the best way to deliver is 223 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 2: not to to create big trauma at the beginning by experience. 224 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:21,839 Speaker 1: But you persuade. You persuaded the Germans before. Can't you 225 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 1: do it again? 226 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 3: This is true? 227 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:27,440 Speaker 2: But I was, if I want to be fair, I 228 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 2: was a little bit helped by a colleague called COVID 229 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:36,080 Speaker 2: nineteen and it changed the reality. But what I think 230 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 2: we have an external systemic shock. I think we have 231 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 2: to assays that during the pandemic, we all experienced a 232 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 2: symmetric shock for all our economies and this is why 233 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:49,680 Speaker 2: we have We made this move move with Chancellor Merkle, 234 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 2: and I think it was a unique movement. This is 235 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 2: really for me a fundamental change of our EU. Now. 236 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 2: I want to be totally aware of the fact that 237 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 2: we are leaving a symmetric shock on our economies whose 238 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 2: scale and magnitude is underestimated because the real location factor 239 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 2: is huge. Look at the chemical industry in Europe completely 240 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 2: being relocated because of area I mentioned. If you don't 241 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:24,320 Speaker 2: deliver the level playing filled a gender, we will be 242 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:28,680 Speaker 2: super happy with rich as a good regulation for European consumer, 243 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:34,679 Speaker 2: but no more existing chemical industry and it will be 244 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 2: the same for still it will be the same for 245 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 2: I mean the existing business we have because of energy 246 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:45,319 Speaker 2: costs and overregulation. So we have to fix energy issue 247 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 2: and overregulation and for me the single market on energy 248 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:54,840 Speaker 2: and on top of that diversification of our phonitions to 249 00:13:54,920 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 2: reduce this discrepancy and acceleration of playing field agenda under 250 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:05,199 Speaker 2: and pose in terms of regulation. It's critical and if 251 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 2: we don't have the level playing fielder agenda, we will 252 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 2: be killed in this market. And in parallel, for clean 253 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:14,679 Speaker 2: energy and artificial intelligence, we have to invest much more 254 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:18,679 Speaker 2: rapidly and protect as well or key players, otherwise they 255 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 2: will be relocated in the US. 256 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 1: Wears Henrik. I mentioned the joint debt question, but actually 257 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 1: there's a broader issue here that you listen to President Macron, 258 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 1: you read the drug E report, you read many speeches 259 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 1: frankly from European leaders, but not from the German Chancellor, 260 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 1: not from German leaders assessing the threat to the growth 261 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 1: model in as fundamentally as this the stark language that 262 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:54,120 Speaker 1: President Macron has used, how does Europe move forward, rush 263 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 1: forward on this agenda if there isn't that understanding, that 264 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 1: same analysis at the top in Germany. 265 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 6: I'm not sure that you don't share the analysis with 266 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:08,200 Speaker 6: with mister with the Chancellor Shultz. Obviously he's a different person. 267 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:12,200 Speaker 6: But I think the analysis that we need simplification what 268 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 6: you were just saying, we need more investment, we have 269 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 6: less regulation. I think that is something which you know 270 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 6: the chancell he also says, I think that's a fundamental issue. 271 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 6: I think capital market union, as I said, is an 272 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 6: important step. But in the end, and you know, he 273 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 6: has been remarkable European. I remember when you first came. 274 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 6: You're actually a chapper for a while. If I may 275 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 6: say that, yeah, is together, right, but he has moved 276 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 6: on a lot. 277 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 1: I don't think you should feel bad. I think it's okay. 278 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 6: And of course you know he's there's a reason why 279 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 6: he's moved on and and and so he you know, 280 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 6: he came on stage and he said, we want Europe, 281 00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 6: and you give your speech, and there was a bait 282 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 6: whether Germany was responding appropriate to the young French president 283 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 6: who was doing that. But I think he was always 284 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 6: this good European and I think we're very lucky to 285 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 6: have him actually as a European. Also if you think 286 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 6: about the latest developments in your country, if I may 287 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 6: say so, mister president, and also in our country. And 288 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 6: I think the ultimate problem always in the end, and 289 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 6: you alluded to, is that there's still no European answer 290 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 6: to many of these things. But it's not easy in Europe, 291 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 6: you know, with and even if I may say so, 292 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 6: if Germany and France you said on Capitol market Union 293 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 6: in Meserbach, you have a paper which took us I 294 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 6: think ten years or something to get a French and 295 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 6: a German position on that. So the leadership of Germany 296 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 6: and France is very very important. I think the only 297 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 6: way actually to move Europe forward. I think that's also 298 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 6: your view. But are the others then also in the 299 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:55,280 Speaker 6: future more likely to fall in line in terms of 300 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 6: moving Europe forward. 301 00:16:56,560 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 1: Maybe it took ten years to have Franco German agreement 302 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 1: on that, but we've only got a few days to 303 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:05,479 Speaker 1: have Franco German agreement on the tariffs on Chinese electrical vehicles, 304 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 1: and you mentioned it in your speech on this stage. 305 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 1: A year ago. Actually, I spoke to Chancellor Schultz who 306 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 1: said he didn't want to see a trade war with China. 307 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 1: He didn't like tariffs. His minister earlier said something quite similar. 308 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 1: But there is a vote on whether those tariffs go 309 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:27,720 Speaker 1: through on Friday, So can I just ask do you 310 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:31,120 Speaker 1: think that will pass, that the EU governments will confirm 311 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 1: those tariffs. 312 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 2: I don't know before the vote. I can tell you 313 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:39,480 Speaker 2: that I do support the European Commission on that because 314 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 2: what I was speaking about electrical vehicles on the European market, 315 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 2: and what is the reality you have the European car makers. 316 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 2: They go to the market and by the way, we 317 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:56,680 Speaker 2: use our taxpayers money to subsidize the consumer to buy 318 00:17:56,720 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 2: this these cars and they have to compete with some 319 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:04,480 Speaker 2: car makers producing in China with an existing advantage. But 320 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 2: it's part of the offshoring production because reproduce in much 321 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 2: lower cost condition. But on top of that they benefit 322 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:16,159 Speaker 2: from subsidies from the Chinese government. This is a bias 323 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 2: for your market. The question is which model do you choose? 324 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:22,240 Speaker 2: Do you want to be a consumer or a producer. 325 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 2: And now this is the dilemma we have. Twenty years 326 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:28,480 Speaker 2: ago for solar panels, we decided to kill our markets 327 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:31,760 Speaker 2: and we exactly we had the same dilemma. We did choose. 328 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 2: We killed our industry. We had an existing industry, we 329 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:38,120 Speaker 2: killed it and we deployed solar panels in a lot 330 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:42,160 Speaker 2: of places Chinese once. So we created a dependency which 331 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:43,119 Speaker 2: could create some problem. 332 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:43,920 Speaker 3: We experiment that in. 333 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 2: COVID time and we killed the ability to produce on 334 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 2: the European soil. It's not a good idea when you 335 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:54,199 Speaker 2: need growth and you have to finance such a social 336 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:59,639 Speaker 2: model as the one we have. Now, the question is 337 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:03,280 Speaker 2: do we want a fair competition or not. I do 338 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:12,639 Speaker 2: want fair competition. So the EU Commission launched precisely a 339 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:16,119 Speaker 2: series of studios exchange with all the car makers and 340 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:21,200 Speaker 2: just correct the level of discrepancies to establish the level 341 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:25,200 Speaker 2: playing field, so you have something from nine to ten 342 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:28,159 Speaker 2: for those who are less helped, and I think the 343 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:31,639 Speaker 2: range is between twenty one and thirty five person TIFs. 344 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:34,359 Speaker 3: This is a matter of credibility. 345 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:37,240 Speaker 2: For our market, and I insist on that if you 346 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:39,639 Speaker 2: don't preserve the level of playing field, just don't hope 347 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:42,159 Speaker 2: that you want to produce and preserve you're in the 348 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:43,359 Speaker 2: scale foot print in your hope. 349 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 1: You speak the Chancellor shops earlier. I think it is 350 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:49,919 Speaker 1: a did you make progress? Unfortunately you didn't even have 351 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 1: any advisers in the room and the reporters were unable. 352 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:55,480 Speaker 1: No chance of us finding out. So I ask. 353 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 3: And I do respect. 354 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:01,439 Speaker 2: All the positions and the sensit of the market. I 355 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 2: think the question is what will become the Chinese market 356 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:11,479 Speaker 2: for the for the car makers. My view is that 357 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:13,240 Speaker 2: it did change during the past few years and it 358 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:17,239 Speaker 2: should not be underestimated. The US just put a one 359 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:23,119 Speaker 2: hundred person tax one hundred person tax undifferentiated, so let's 360 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:26,280 Speaker 2: wake up. We live in the same world. You cannot 361 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:30,480 Speaker 2: have China over subsidizing a lot of countries, even India 362 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 2: and others reacting to these subsidies, the US overreacting by 363 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 2: one hundred person trife and the od thing. You're welcome 364 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:45,680 Speaker 2: and it doesn't fly. Otherwise we will be happy consumers 365 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:49,440 Speaker 2: of non European producers. I can tell you we will 366 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 2: have an issue of growth in a few years time. 367 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:55,160 Speaker 1: You spoke about the importance of Europe speaking with one 368 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:58,160 Speaker 1: voice in order to get one voice on this, would 369 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:01,639 Speaker 1: you be would do you agree to a delay or 370 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:03,520 Speaker 1: some kind of compromise or you think. 371 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:05,879 Speaker 2: I want to be efficient and find compromise and respect 372 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:09,160 Speaker 2: all the positions. I think the I want to advocate 373 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 2: the CEO Commission. They did a great job. It was 374 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:15,679 Speaker 2: bold to do so, honestly because they had a lot 375 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 2: of pressure not to do it. And in the DNA 376 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 2: of the Commission, you know that you work there, Larsendric 377 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:24,119 Speaker 2: during Earth it was not in the DNA of the 378 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 2: European Commission to work on this type of issue. 379 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:29,720 Speaker 3: And I think it's for me. 380 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 2: This is a signal that clearly we have a much 381 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:40,639 Speaker 2: more strategic and geo strategic commission as we wanted than before. 382 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 3: But clearly I want to insist in that we are 383 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:49,879 Speaker 3: not just a market or consumers, and we were used 384 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:52,199 Speaker 3: just to behave following the nine and this is not 385 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:52,879 Speaker 3: a good idea. 386 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 1: You talked about protectionism as an ugly word, and that 387 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 1: it's about having a more realistic strategic vision, as the 388 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 1: US does and certainly as China does. I wonder if, 389 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 1: at the same time as having these tariffs for a 390 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 1: level playing field, if you were to support, for example, 391 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 1: finally moving ahead with Mercasoor, would that send a message 392 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 1: to other parts of the world that Europe is still 393 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 1: open for business, that this is a specific thing with China, 394 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:25,879 Speaker 1: but actually Europe is still very much open to trade deals. 395 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 2: I'm in favor of any deal which will be fair. 396 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:33,199 Speaker 1: Does it look fair right now? 397 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 3: Why? 398 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 2: Because exactly the same reason level playing field. You cannot 399 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:45,199 Speaker 2: impose a bunch of regulation to your industries and your 400 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 2: farmers that they are digesting by the way, because it's 401 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:51,639 Speaker 2: not yet completed, and at the same time open to 402 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:56,800 Speaker 2: economies totally designed with this regulation. How do you want 403 00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:00,679 Speaker 2: to explain to a farmer that you will be it 404 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 2: will not be allowed to use this pesticide, this chemical 405 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:10,399 Speaker 2: ingredient and so on. And at the same time on 406 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 2: ease sector you say you are more than Maltam. You 407 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:17,640 Speaker 2: can come with your food without respecting the same all. Honestly, 408 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:22,480 Speaker 2: I I never advocate regulation that I don't understand myself, 409 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 2: and I think this is a good rule and and 410 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:29,200 Speaker 2: don't be naive. 411 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:33,960 Speaker 3: We speak about Marco Shore. Brazil just imposed tariff. 412 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:38,320 Speaker 2: For if It as well, and in the can system 413 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,440 Speaker 2: they want to exclude public procurement for the deal from 414 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:46,040 Speaker 2: the deal. They protect themselves, the protect the economies. And 415 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:49,720 Speaker 2: my point is just we I think a lot of 416 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:53,040 Speaker 2: people in Europe underestimated what happened during the past two 417 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 2: to three years. But we had two huge shocks which 418 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 2: could completely change our approach. And why in Ukraine the 419 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:07,679 Speaker 2: end of our energtical model and the end of the 420 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 2: WT or order. I love and Gozi, I'm a strong 421 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:16,679 Speaker 2: advocate of the W two. Understand me. But just for 422 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:19,560 Speaker 2: the first time in our recent histories, the US decided 423 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:23,879 Speaker 2: not to be compliant with the wtwo for clintech. But 424 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 2: this is too you change. If we stay and stick 425 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,200 Speaker 2: to the same policy we are, we have no chance. 426 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:33,040 Speaker 1: One of the big features of your presidency in the 427 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 1: first few years, President Macron was that strength at home 428 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:43,360 Speaker 1: gave you strength in Europe. You made decisive reforms the 429 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 1: employment many other things. You've got the fiscal house in order, 430 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:50,960 Speaker 1: and that gave you the power to push things through. 431 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,359 Speaker 1: I think many people here will be looking at the 432 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 1: time what has happened in the last few months in France, 433 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:02,920 Speaker 1: the fragility of the new government under Messi Baltney, and 434 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 1: wondering whether you still have that capacity to push through change. 435 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:11,520 Speaker 1: Do you worry that it was a mistake to call 436 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:12,440 Speaker 1: that election. 437 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:16,359 Speaker 2: No, I don't think so. Why because it never happened 438 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,879 Speaker 2: without a coavitation in France to be re elected. So 439 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:24,120 Speaker 2: I'm very lucid about my situation and we had a 440 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 2: relative majority without any partners, so I called for snap 441 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 2: elections for this reason. After two little bit more than 442 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 2: two years, well we delivered. I mean, during the past 443 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:39,119 Speaker 2: two years we delivered the reform of indemnification of unemployed people, 444 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 2: a pension scheme reform, an immigration reform. I mean, when 445 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:44,199 Speaker 2: I look around in Europe, I don't see a lot 446 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 2: of countries deploying such a reform agenda. So we were 447 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:52,440 Speaker 2: under pressure, and I was very clear on the fact 448 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 2: that when you have the far right more than thirty 449 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:58,920 Speaker 2: five persons, you cannot follow up during three years to come, 450 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:01,520 Speaker 2: because I had three years to without making a move. 451 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 2: But I think you should not see that as a 452 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:09,159 Speaker 2: source of instability. The reaction of the French people was 453 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 2: the opposite, because if they had confirmed the thirty five 454 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:15,199 Speaker 2: person for the far right and what a lot of 455 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:19,399 Speaker 2: people thought, I would have a far rightist prime minister. 456 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:20,600 Speaker 3: Today it's not a case. 457 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,040 Speaker 2: So what we had for the first time in our history, 458 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 2: which is much more the custom in your country and 459 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,840 Speaker 2: a lot of European country, is a fragmented parliament. Fine, 460 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,440 Speaker 2: this is less our culture to have cooperation between the parties. 461 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:39,679 Speaker 2: This is my problem. So I'm trying to create this 462 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:45,359 Speaker 2: dialectic work between the parties to work together. It's not 463 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 2: a natural move, but I'm reasonably optimistic about the fact 464 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 2: that reasonable social Democrats, Centrists and reasonable rightists can work 465 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 2: together for the years to come to deliver strong agenda. 466 00:26:57,480 --> 00:26:59,639 Speaker 2: And what we have to do is first to preserve 467 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 2: and die just all the reforms we delivered dur in 468 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:05,720 Speaker 2: the past seven years, and we have to deliver more 469 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:11,280 Speaker 2: for our young people. We have to complete what we 470 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:14,399 Speaker 2: did an apprenticeship to have better and faster access to 471 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,080 Speaker 2: the market is one of the key points for the 472 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:20,879 Speaker 2: French system to have more growth. We have to follow 473 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:25,399 Speaker 2: up what we did on the unemployment system. We have 474 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:30,159 Speaker 2: to work on the access to our labor market for 475 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 2: senior workers, and we have a lot of sectorial reform 476 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 2: to be launched. We have in France. This is our chance, 477 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:44,359 Speaker 2: the ability, even with a relative majority, to deliver these 478 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,720 Speaker 2: reforms at the parliament. But I think we can create 479 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:52,639 Speaker 2: dynamic and I do trust mister Baneer's government to be 480 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 2: in this situation to deliver useful reform for the countries. 481 00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,879 Speaker 2: Because the agenda is quite clear. We have to modernize 482 00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:02,439 Speaker 2: the country to be part of this agenda. We have 483 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 2: to deliver at the European scale, and at the same 484 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:10,200 Speaker 2: time we have to make more effort on social coasion 485 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 2: and stability of the country. This is normal in the 486 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,639 Speaker 2: lifetime of the country after seven years. So I'm totally 487 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,479 Speaker 2: lucid about that and optimistic. But I want to focus 488 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:26,399 Speaker 2: on the fact that today the key points of the 489 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:30,639 Speaker 2: reform agenda for me is at the European scale. I 490 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 2: think we put in place a lot of reforms that 491 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:36,720 Speaker 2: now we have to deliver, and we have to deliver 492 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 2: in concrete terms, we have less laws to be passed 493 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 2: and what points on the pension scheme is for the 494 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 2: years to come, and it's already voted, but the key 495 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 2: elements are to be decided at the European scale, and 496 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:51,680 Speaker 2: I think if we want to improve our growth, both 497 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,720 Speaker 2: in Germany and France, for me, the top of my 498 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 2: priority are at the European scale, because this is where 499 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 2: we can unlock a lot of growth and potentials. 500 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 1: But Las Henric, when you have a country coming to 501 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 1: these discussions that has a six percent of GDP budget 502 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 1: deficit as France now has one hundred and ten percent debt, 503 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,240 Speaker 1: is having to have an extended period to get back 504 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:21,160 Speaker 1: within the convergence criteria. That is not a strong negotiating position. 505 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 1: You mean that country has, that country being France. 506 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:28,640 Speaker 6: I don't think that negotiation position of France depends on 507 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 6: the the budget deficit. I think there's more to that 508 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 6: than just that one. So I think the problem of 509 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:37,600 Speaker 6: debt in the world, I think is an issue, and 510 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 6: I think Europe needs to be careful of having prudent 511 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,480 Speaker 6: fiscal rules and stimulus and I think that's important. But 512 00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,880 Speaker 6: I think I agree with aman with President macrant that 513 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 6: it is much more of a European issue, I think 514 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 6: the future of Europe than it is a domestic French one, 515 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:57,680 Speaker 6: as he has done a lot of the reforms when 516 00:29:57,680 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 6: he became president. 517 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:01,719 Speaker 2: I mean to be just to highlight the point and 518 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 2: make it clear why are we in the situation. We 519 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 2: had an issue during the low growth this year, so 520 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 2: we have less written on our budget in terms of taxes. 521 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 2: This is why we have this discrepancy with the forecast. 522 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,000 Speaker 2: And we had a difference in terms of forecast with 523 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 2: some public expenditure at the local level, but more than that. 524 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 2: To understand the French metrics we started to diverge in 525 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 2: the eighties because we build progressively a much more generous 526 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:35,240 Speaker 2: social model. The main factor of adjustment if you take 527 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:40,440 Speaker 2: our balance sheet, I would say is clearly pension reforms 528 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:42,960 Speaker 2: and healthcare system. This is why it was a necessary 529 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 2: to pass this pension reform. Probably in the next mandates, 530 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:48,479 Speaker 2: my successor will have to pass another one if they 531 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,880 Speaker 2: want to adjust. But the main focus and I put 532 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 2: my energy on one point, how to create more activity. 533 00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:59,840 Speaker 2: And during the past seven years, because of our tax reforms, 534 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 2: because our label laws reforms, because our attractiveness agenda. We've 535 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:07,880 Speaker 2: been the number one country in terms of attracted nets 536 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,160 Speaker 2: during the past five years. We created more than two 537 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:16,360 Speaker 2: million jobs when we decreased, even with COVID, even with 538 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:22,320 Speaker 2: u crenils, by more than two points our unemployment rate. 539 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:25,720 Speaker 2: So we are converging and for me this is the 540 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 2: main topic because if we had the same level of 541 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:33,760 Speaker 2: activity as Germany, we will don't have public deficits and 542 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:37,320 Speaker 2: it's much smarter to look to work on that than 543 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 2: being obsessed by a short term adjustment, which is a 544 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 2: killer for growth. The top priority of the French economy 545 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:48,000 Speaker 2: should be how to be sure that you improve the 546 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:52,240 Speaker 2: activity rates of young people because we have I think 547 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 2: two to three points less than Germany. Your system is 548 00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:59,120 Speaker 2: more efficient, let's be clear. So yes, you need political 549 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 2: courage and you have to be fair with your people. 550 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 2: But the solution is not to have a short term 551 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 2: adjustment by cutting some social expenditure because it's super hard 552 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:13,480 Speaker 2: without any agenda, or over taxing because we don't we 553 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:15,520 Speaker 2: don't have a lot of room to maneuver in terms 554 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:17,400 Speaker 2: of taxation given the fact that we are number one 555 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:17,760 Speaker 2: or two. 556 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:20,479 Speaker 3: It depends with Denmark in Europe. 557 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,080 Speaker 1: Yes, the gender I mean the cuts that are being 558 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 1: proposed just for next year. To make Monsieur Barney's numbers 559 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:31,320 Speaker 1: add up. We have a squeezing of the deficit by 560 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:35,080 Speaker 1: sixty billion euros exactly next year, some of which will 561 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:39,080 Speaker 1: be taxes on wealthy individuals and big businesses. Are there 562 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:41,040 Speaker 1: are any higher taxes that you would. 563 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 3: They will discuss that. 564 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:46,800 Speaker 2: I think having an exceptional taxation on corporate is something 565 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:50,920 Speaker 2: which is well understood by large companies. If this is 566 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:54,960 Speaker 2: for one year in given the level of a thought 567 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:58,680 Speaker 2: which should be made, but it should be limited. And 568 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,320 Speaker 2: we don't have to I mean, we have not to 569 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 2: forget the reality of our economy, the reality of our 570 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:10,040 Speaker 2: competitiveness and our position. Just take an OCD comparison. We 571 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:13,520 Speaker 2: are number one or two in terms of taxation. We 572 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:17,360 Speaker 2: are not in the best tier in terms of level. 573 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:18,640 Speaker 3: Of activity and. 574 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:24,960 Speaker 2: How working participation or house to be worked per year. 575 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:26,240 Speaker 3: So this is what we have to improve. 576 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:28,680 Speaker 1: But as you say, the most important things that you 577 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:30,920 Speaker 1: can do for the long term is the reforms like 578 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:35,520 Speaker 1: the pension reform, And that is another reason why people worry. 579 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:37,480 Speaker 1: They look at the cost of the uncertainty of the 580 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:41,280 Speaker 1: last few months, and you say that the far right 581 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:46,240 Speaker 1: threat has been contained with this new arrangement. But Marie 582 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,880 Speaker 1: Le Penn wants to reverse that pension reform and tomorrow 583 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:52,560 Speaker 1: she could call a confidence vote and probably bring down 584 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:55,760 Speaker 1: the government over that. So do you think that there 585 00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,040 Speaker 1: will be an effort to overturn the pension reform? 586 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:00,920 Speaker 2: I think when you look at the figure sincere with 587 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:06,440 Speaker 2: people all the reasonable parties, we look at the fact 588 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,840 Speaker 2: that this pension reformed and these key metrics has to 589 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:13,840 Speaker 2: be preserved, and we have a structure with all our unions, 590 00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:16,720 Speaker 2: and this structure now is very clear and issould figure 591 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:17,279 Speaker 2: that it was a. 592 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:18,279 Speaker 3: Necessity to do so. 593 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:23,160 Speaker 2: And after a dissolution you cannot change the parliament during 594 00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:26,279 Speaker 2: at least one year time. But I want what I 595 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 2: want to to tell you. If I did not ask 596 00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 2: for this election, I could be in front of you 597 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,600 Speaker 2: and you would tell me, okay, you cannot go for 598 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:35,400 Speaker 2: election in two and a half years. Look at the 599 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:37,880 Speaker 2: course they are air and they were in a situation 600 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:41,759 Speaker 2: to call for a confident vote and force me for 601 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:47,799 Speaker 2: a dissolution, and I wouldn't answer. Now, we were bold collectively. 602 00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:51,040 Speaker 2: I took my responsibility. I asked often people, do you 603 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:56,560 Speaker 2: want them to govern. They answered very clearly, no, eleven 604 00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,120 Speaker 2: million of my people did vote for them. So it 605 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:03,759 Speaker 2: means that there is a anger, fears and clearly some 606 00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:07,920 Speaker 2: top priorities that we have to face on security, on 607 00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:11,279 Speaker 2: social justice, on the ground, the situation of our neighborhood 608 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:14,560 Speaker 2: and on rural areas. And so this is the agenda. 609 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:16,560 Speaker 2: We will have to fix that the governments in front 610 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:20,000 Speaker 2: of him, but they didn't give the flow to them. 611 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:22,640 Speaker 2: And look at the situation everywhere in Europe. Look at 612 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:26,520 Speaker 2: what happened in Austria, look at what happened in Nezerlands, 613 00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,400 Speaker 2: look at what happened in Italy, look at what's happening 614 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,160 Speaker 2: in a lot of lender in your country. So this 615 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:37,000 Speaker 2: is why I'm a strong advocate of EU growth agenda, 616 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:39,960 Speaker 2: because this is the only way to give a return 617 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:44,239 Speaker 2: to our middle classes. Otherwise this is a killer for them, 618 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:49,200 Speaker 2: and this is the only way to reconcile economy and 619 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:53,960 Speaker 2: the reality of politics. But don't you think that having 620 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:59,000 Speaker 2: farmers to which you ask for reforms and efforts, and 621 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:01,200 Speaker 2: at the same time you expec I will welcome the 622 00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:04,279 Speaker 2: sawyer being coming from Mercursire is the best way to 623 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,760 Speaker 2: kill the far right, I can tell you for my country, 624 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:11,120 Speaker 2: not at all. And at the end of the day, 625 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:14,160 Speaker 2: do you think what is the priority today for all 626 00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:19,400 Speaker 2: of us? Delivering grows and political stability, meaning fixing the 627 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:23,319 Speaker 2: anxiety of our societies and convincing reasonable people in our 628 00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:24,520 Speaker 2: middle classes not. 629 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:25,719 Speaker 3: To go to the extremes. 630 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:29,960 Speaker 2: But let's be clear, didn't we deliver collectively good policies 631 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:33,680 Speaker 2: for our middle classes during decades? We delivered good policies 632 00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:37,120 Speaker 2: to have the maximum of exports, the maximum of profits. 633 00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,560 Speaker 2: But they have the feeling sometimes for good reasons. They 634 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:44,120 Speaker 2: were the adjustment factor of our economy. This is why 635 00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:47,920 Speaker 2: preserving level playing physics, not just sacrificing a lot of 636 00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:50,919 Speaker 2: pieces of our economy where these middle classes work. 637 00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:53,240 Speaker 3: I try to be consistent. 638 00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:57,320 Speaker 1: You have defended very clearly why you took that decision 639 00:36:57,440 --> 00:36:59,680 Speaker 1: to call the election in the summer, and at the 640 00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:03,359 Speaker 1: time you said it was for clarity, and I guess 641 00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:05,719 Speaker 1: some people would say you didn't get the clarity. But 642 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:10,040 Speaker 1: would you make the same decision again, Yes, because I 643 00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:12,000 Speaker 1: sat in the next two years. 644 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:13,040 Speaker 3: No, no, no. 645 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,200 Speaker 2: My view is that we have to preserve now till 646 00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:20,000 Speaker 2: the end of my mandate. But it's important because this 647 00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:22,880 Speaker 2: is a new phase of the political modernization of France 648 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:26,719 Speaker 2: as well. I was elected in twenty seventeen in this 649 00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:32,560 Speaker 2: commitment precisely to go beyond the party system, and I 650 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:34,960 Speaker 2: gathered with me people coming from the left, the right, 651 00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:38,400 Speaker 2: in the center on a common project. And now the 652 00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:42,160 Speaker 2: question is how to work collectively with not just my 653 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:47,200 Speaker 2: party but other parties. This is a new way to 654 00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:50,600 Speaker 2: move forward at the Parliament. But this is a very 655 00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:53,000 Speaker 2: positive one for me, and this is the only one 656 00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:58,320 Speaker 2: to provide stability and not to be precisely super sensitive 657 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:01,920 Speaker 2: to the extremes s time. We need bold reforms and 658 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:04,200 Speaker 2: the agenda has to be both, and the Prime Minister 659 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:07,240 Speaker 2: was right to push some key items of this agenda. 660 00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:11,480 Speaker 2: Look at the situation, nothing was sacrificed. All the reforms 661 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:15,799 Speaker 2: are preserved, and this new government has to work with 662 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:21,920 Speaker 2: parliament and progressively with build consensus. So I'm not naive, 663 00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:24,520 Speaker 2: I'm a husumance to be optimistic, but I think at 664 00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:27,480 Speaker 2: the same time we have to accelerate to deliver a 665 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:31,800 Speaker 2: positive the U agendas. 666 00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:35,000 Speaker 1: Mister President, I want to take you right back the 667 00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:37,759 Speaker 1: final question. We've run out of time, but from where 668 00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:40,759 Speaker 1: we started, which was the sense of urgency you had 669 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:43,600 Speaker 1: in your remarks that you felt everybody in Europe should 670 00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:48,000 Speaker 1: feel about the challenges facing the European growth model. And 671 00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:52,280 Speaker 1: as you know, often in Europe it's a moment of crisis. 672 00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:55,200 Speaker 1: It's when politicians are looking over the ledge that they 673 00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:57,800 Speaker 1: actually have done things. Whether it's the global financial crisis 674 00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:00,920 Speaker 1: or as you mentioned, COVID, the invasion of Ukraine, all 675 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:04,360 Speaker 1: of those things have forced changed. As an economist, I 676 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:06,279 Speaker 1: would think that the fact that the EU could be 677 00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:08,680 Speaker 1: forty percent smaller than the US in twenty years time, 678 00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:10,319 Speaker 1: if it carries on like this is a bit of 679 00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:14,600 Speaker 1: a is a crisis, but it's a slow moving one. 680 00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:18,719 Speaker 1: Will it take an outside force to force this kind 681 00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:20,920 Speaker 1: of change? And I wonder in that context, with the 682 00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:24,000 Speaker 1: return of Donald Trump as president, help you get some 683 00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:25,320 Speaker 1: of this done. 684 00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:29,600 Speaker 2: Look, I think it could have consequences of the defense 685 00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:34,719 Speaker 2: and security part of the agenda for sure, good consequences, consequences, 686 00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:38,680 Speaker 2: but I think we should be honestly, I don't want 687 00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:41,799 Speaker 2: to speculate on the US elections. My point more than 688 00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:44,640 Speaker 2: that is that US is a very strong partner. This 689 00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:47,920 Speaker 2: is a very important lie. But whoever will be elected 690 00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:51,759 Speaker 2: and whatever the administration is, I think we have to 691 00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:56,120 Speaker 2: be lucid on our situation. Europe is normal as the 692 00:39:56,160 --> 00:40:03,040 Speaker 2: top priority of the US. The U top priority is US, 693 00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:07,400 Speaker 2: which is normal and unfair. The second top priority is China, 694 00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:09,520 Speaker 2: and for the rest it depends. 695 00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:09,680 Speaker 3: On the moment. 696 00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:13,960 Speaker 2: They are super loyal and reliable partner in Ukraine. Will 697 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:16,359 Speaker 2: it last, I don't know, but let's be clear. At 698 00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:19,400 Speaker 2: the same time, in Afghanistan we didn't have the call before, 699 00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:22,520 Speaker 2: and in the Ocus deal in Australia, I didn't have 700 00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:23,360 Speaker 2: the call before. 701 00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:27,600 Speaker 3: But it's not a reproach. I try to be lucid. 702 00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:31,120 Speaker 2: The EU is not the priority of the US, and 703 00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:33,640 Speaker 2: this is why part of the wake up call period 704 00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:36,279 Speaker 2: of time we are living and part of what we 705 00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:40,120 Speaker 2: have to completely reshape is our defense and security strategy. 706 00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:44,080 Speaker 2: We are part of NATO, no discussion. We are stronger 707 00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:46,960 Speaker 2: lives the US no discussion, But we have to derisk 708 00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:50,040 Speaker 2: our model from the US agenda. This is why we 709 00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:52,960 Speaker 2: have to invest much more for ourselves. We have to 710 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:56,560 Speaker 2: create much more European solutions. We have to preserve much 711 00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:58,920 Speaker 2: more our financing for European solutions. 712 00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:01,279 Speaker 3: This is a priority. 713 00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:05,799 Speaker 2: But what you say is very important and this is 714 00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:11,040 Speaker 2: why I try to be vocal. And we moved under 715 00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:13,960 Speaker 2: the pressure of crisis when they were perceived by our 716 00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:19,319 Speaker 2: fellow citizens, the financial crisis and the COVID crisis. You 717 00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:25,440 Speaker 2: all here, business leaders, political leaders, intellectual leaders. Our responsibility, 718 00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:30,800 Speaker 2: your responsibility, our collective responsibility if to explain our fellow 719 00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:34,960 Speaker 2: citizens that this is a symmetric shock for Europe. They 720 00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:38,799 Speaker 2: don't see now the results and the consequences. But our 721 00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:43,319 Speaker 2: responsibilities is to prehend the situation and to act now, 722 00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:45,840 Speaker 2: otherwise it will be a rescue plan in five to 723 00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:46,560 Speaker 2: ten years time. 724 00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:48,440 Speaker 3: And we know the situation. 725 00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:51,839 Speaker 2: The figures are clear, the trends are very clear. So 726 00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:55,160 Speaker 2: our responsibility as leaders is precisely to say, okay, we 727 00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:59,520 Speaker 2: feel the pressure and for me, Europe can make smart 728 00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:03,720 Speaker 2: moves when we have symmetric shock. During the financial crisis, 729 00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:07,400 Speaker 2: don't overestimate. We did react, but we didn't take automatically 730 00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:10,280 Speaker 2: all the right decisions because it was an asymmetric shock. 731 00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:15,840 Speaker 2: And we fixed this crisis much more slowly than the 732 00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:21,080 Speaker 2: US because we were precisely divided between north and South. 733 00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:24,840 Speaker 2: It was a weakness. It was before bunking Union and 734 00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:27,880 Speaker 2: such a level of integration, but it was an asymmetric shock, 735 00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:31,359 Speaker 2: meaning we didn't have the same interest today we can 736 00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:34,359 Speaker 2: have in the nitty gritty some different interest. You are 737 00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:37,760 Speaker 2: much more invested in car making business. Fine, which creates 738 00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:42,040 Speaker 2: this kind of discrepancy. But in reality we are already 739 00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:48,480 Speaker 2: aligned because it's already too late. If I'm fair, it's 740 00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:51,440 Speaker 2: already too late. So we should be aligned and just 741 00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:55,800 Speaker 2: look at the situation. Whatever our differences in the energy 742 00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:59,120 Speaker 2: system could be or industrial system, this is a symmetric 743 00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:02,960 Speaker 2: shock for the European societies and economies. So we have 744 00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:08,080 Speaker 2: to precisely deliver this in depth reform on our governance, 745 00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:12,040 Speaker 2: on security and defense and the growth model, if just 746 00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:14,400 Speaker 2: we want to deliver for our people, and this is 747 00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:17,360 Speaker 2: the best way, by the way to help all the 748 00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:25,160 Speaker 2: countries precisely to limit and get rid of the extremes 749 00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:28,680 Speaker 2: because they are just held by the recent amount of 750 00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:30,920 Speaker 2: people and the lack of collective efficient. 751 00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:34,360 Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen, you've had your marching orders from mister President, 752 00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:37,719 Speaker 1: and I think we have we've run out of time, 753 00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:42,560 Speaker 1: so thank you very much, mister President, and Las Hendricks 754 00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:55,279 Speaker 1: very much. Thanks for listening to this week's photonomics from Bloomberg. 755 00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:57,960 Speaker 1: This episode was hosted by me Stephanie Flanders, with a 756 00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:01,360 Speaker 1: Legra Stratton and Adrian Mordridge. It was produced by Samma 757 00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:05,200 Speaker 1: Sadi with production support from Chris Martlou and Isabella Ward. 758 00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:09,600 Speaker 1: Sound design by Moses and Am and Brendan Francis Newnham 759 00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:13,880 Speaker 1: is our executive producer. Sage Bowman is head of Bloomberg 760 00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:16,840 Speaker 1: Podcast and this week we have special thanks to Julia Manns, 761 00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:21,680 Speaker 1: the Berlin Global Dialogue, President of France, Emmanuel Macron and 762 00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:26,440 Speaker 1: Lars Henrik Roler. Please subscribe, rate, and review this podcast 763 00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:27,640 Speaker 1: wherever you listen to it.