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Speaker 1: Hi, guys, Welcome to a new episode of Legally Brunette.

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Speaker 1: I will be your host today, Emily Simpson with Shane

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Speaker 1: with Shane Simpson. First of all, just a reminder to

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Speaker 1: everyone that we are now on our own feed, so

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Speaker 1: when we have weekly episodes they will go on to

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Speaker 1: our new own Legally Brunette feed. So please make sure that,

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Speaker 1: if you haven't done so already, make sure that you

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Speaker 1: find us wherever you listen to your podcast, make sure

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Speaker 1: you follow us, leave a review if you would like

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Speaker 1: join the community, Join the community. All right, We're going

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Speaker 1: to do a few updates first before we go into

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Speaker 1: the Ellen Greenberg case. First of all, I know that

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Speaker 1: you've probably seen Diddy in the news again, so if

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Speaker 1: you do, remember that the jury acquitted Combs of racketeering

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Speaker 1: and sex trafficking charges back in July, but convicted him

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Speaker 1: on two of the lesser charges which we're transporting former

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Speaker 1: girlfriends for prostitution. The judge Supermanian sentenced Sean Ditty Coombs

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Speaker 1: just recently to fifty months in prison and find him

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Speaker 1: five hundred thousand dollars and ordered five years of supervised release.

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Speaker 1: Before he was sentenced, Comb's addressed the judge begging for

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Speaker 1: mercy and apologizing for his sick actions. You know, I

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Speaker 1: also saw him. I don't know if you saw this,

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Speaker 1: but I also saw that his defense team made a

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Speaker 1: like a montage, like a video what of him, like

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Speaker 1: being with his family. I think they were trying.

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Speaker 2: To show they're trying to make him like a human.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, like, yeah, they're trying to humanize them. So apparently

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Speaker 1: they showed some video montage of him, you know, with

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Speaker 1: like his kids and being a dad. It's like, forget

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Speaker 1: about all that other shady stuff that he was involved.

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Speaker 2: In, just as the real trial right here.

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Speaker 1: So, prosecutors had pushed for more than eleven years, while

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Speaker 1: the defense sought fourteen months, which would have equaled the

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Speaker 1: time he had already served. Since Combs has been in

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Speaker 1: custody since September of twenty twenty four, that would have

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Speaker 1: been time served. He was already done fourteen months, so

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Speaker 1: obviously his defense was pushing for the amount of time

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Speaker 1: he's already served. He will receive credit for over a

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Speaker 1: year that he's served, but however, he's still going to

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Speaker 1: have to serve the fifty months.

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Speaker 2: Fifty months do they say, like when he's eligible for

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Speaker 2: parole or any any early.

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Speaker 1: I don't I don't know that, but usually you know,

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Speaker 1: just based upon just what we know in general terms,

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Speaker 1: most people serve about half of their sentence unless.

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Speaker 2: It's a federal federal crimes crime, right, Yeah, I think

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Speaker 2: he's obligated to serve like eighty Either way, it's not enough.

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Speaker 2: It's only a couple of years. Really, three more years

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Speaker 2: at the most.

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Speaker 1: I also read today, right before we started doing this podcast,

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Speaker 1: I saw an article that said that he had already

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Speaker 1: booked a speaking engagement prior to his sentencing that I

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Speaker 1: guess he was so sure that he was gonna, you know,

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Speaker 1: get released. Yeah, he had, he already had a speaking engagement.

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Speaker 2: That clearly he already had everyone signed the NBA's new party, right.

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Speaker 1: So that's where we're at with Diddy. Also, if you

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Speaker 1: haven't listened yet, we did do an episode on the

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Speaker 1: yogurt shop murders, which was in the city of Austin.

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Speaker 1: This was back in nineteen ninety one, and we were

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Speaker 1: talking about when we just recently did this episode, about

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Speaker 1: how there was some DNA evidence. You remember, at the

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Speaker 1: end of the episode of the yogurt shot murders, we

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Speaker 1: talked about how there was some DNA evidence and I

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Speaker 1: had read that the FBI had tested it and they

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Speaker 1: felt like they knew who it was, but they weren't

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Speaker 1: giving that information.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, privacy concern.

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Speaker 1: We were wondering right what that was about. And then

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Speaker 1: lo and behold, right after we released that episode, there

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Speaker 1: came all this new information that they had solved this crime,

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Speaker 1: which I have never seen happen. But the timing of

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Speaker 1: it was impeccable.

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Speaker 2: So I think we cause an outrage we did. I

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Speaker 2: think everyone was, Okay, okay, we'll release it.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: Everyone listens to legally Brunette and then they were just

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Speaker 1: they were just like we.

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Speaker 2: Found it like this iscpted, Everyone called their congressman and

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Speaker 2: it was all exactly squared away.

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Speaker 1: So good job Shane making things happen in the in

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Speaker 1: the true crime world. So in June of twenty twenty five,

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Speaker 1: Detective Daniel Jackson he determined that a thirty eight cartridge

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Speaker 1: that was found in a drain at the scene of

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Speaker 1: the I can't believe it yogurt had not been submitted

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Speaker 1: into the National Integrated Ballistic Information Network in many years,

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Speaker 1: and that the software had greatly improved. So in July

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Speaker 1: of twenty twenty five, they received a hit to an

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Speaker 1: unsolved nineteen ninety eight murder in Kentucky. In August to

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty five, Detective Jackson requested a y STR DNA

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Speaker 1: search from all labs in the US that kept y

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Speaker 1: STR profiles, and the South Carolina State Lab was the

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Speaker 1: only lab that found a complete y STR match from

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Speaker 1: a nineteen ninety Greenville, South Carolina sexual assault and murder.

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Speaker 1: The profile belonged to known serial killer and rapist Robert

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Speaker 1: Eugene Brashers. Robert Eugene Brashers committed suicide back in nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety nine with the same make and model of weapon

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Speaker 1: used to shoot Amy Errors, which was one of the

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Speaker 1: girls that was murdered in the Yogurt Shot murders, with

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Speaker 1: a three eighty pistol. Detective Jackson also learned that on

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Speaker 1: December eighth of nineteen ninety one, less than forty eight

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Speaker 1: hours after the Yogurt shot murders, Brasher's was stopped by

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Speaker 1: Border patrol at a westbound checkpoint between El Paso, Texas

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Speaker 1: and Las Cruces, New Mexico. He was driving a stolen

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Speaker 1: car out of Georgia and was in possession of a

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Speaker 1: thirty eight pistol. We have confirmed that this is the

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Speaker 1: same gun that he used to commit suicide in nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety nine, as the serial numbers match.

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Speaker 2: So oh wow, So there we go. Yeah, so the

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Speaker 2: bullets matched.

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Speaker 1: Right, that's what they said, and the DNA matched, So.

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Speaker 2: All the way back in early nineties they had that evidence.

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Speaker 1: Well they saved the bullet right right, but they couldn't.

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Speaker 2: They didn't match it until more recently.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: Wow, that's crazy. It just goes to show you there's

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Speaker 2: so much room for air, unfortunately.

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Speaker 1: And it goes to show you how how how scientific

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Speaker 1: things can be, and how the science is constantly improving,

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Speaker 1: and that things that couldn't be solved years and years

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Speaker 1: ago now when you take a second look, right, because

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Speaker 1: they can be. And it's also did they hold onto

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Speaker 1: the evidence? Did they preserve it correctly? Can retest the DNA?

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Speaker 1: All right, let's move on. This is a new Hulu

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Speaker 1: series called The Death of Ellen Greenberg, and the big

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Speaker 1: question that looms over this case was did Ellen Greenberg

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Speaker 1: commit suicide or was it a murder? I will tell

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Speaker 1: you first of all, I watched the series. It's a

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Speaker 1: three parter on Hulu. It's called Death and Apartment six

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Speaker 1: oh three. What Happened to Ellen Greenberg? I watched it

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Speaker 1: twice actually, because you always miss things the first time,

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Speaker 1: and I don't know.

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Speaker 2: It's like I watched the time you thought it was

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Speaker 2: suicide the same time you watched you thought it was

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Speaker 2: a murder.

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Speaker 1: It's like, I watch it and I think one way,

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Speaker 1: and then I'm like, I'm gonna watch it again, and

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Speaker 1: then I just I don't know. We're just gonna go

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Speaker 1: through it because this is a convoluted, complex case, and honestly,

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Speaker 1: at the end of the day, it reminds me of

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Speaker 1: just like the Karen Reid case, where the only people

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Speaker 1: that know what happened don't speak don't speak, And I

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Speaker 1: don't know if we'll we'll ever actually know what happened,

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Speaker 1: but we're going to talk about it. So let's just

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Speaker 1: do a brief synopsis what we do.

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Speaker 2: That's what we do. We did we unsolve We don't

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Speaker 2: solve mysteries. We don't we talk about unsolved mystery.

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Speaker 1: We talk about them, we dissect it, we give opinions,

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Speaker 1: and then.

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Speaker 2: And then it'll get solved and then someone else will

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Speaker 2: follow it podcast.

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Speaker 1: So let's do a brief synopsis of this case if

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Speaker 1: you haven't heard about it. In January of twenty eleven,

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Speaker 1: a first grade teacher named Ellen green Bird was found

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Speaker 1: dead with twenty stab wounds in her kitchen in a

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Speaker 1: Philadelphia apartment.

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Speaker 2: First of all, okay, right there, you think murder.

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Speaker 1: Right, And I will tell you I didn't know a

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Speaker 1: lot about this case.

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Speaker 2: By it.

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Speaker 1: I had heard of it before. And when I say

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Speaker 1: I had heard of it, I mean I saw headlines, right.

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Speaker 1: And when you see a headline and the headline is

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Speaker 1: stab twenty times, suicide or murder, you say, well, she

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Speaker 1: was clearly, yeah, murdered, because how does someone stab themselves

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Speaker 1: twenty times? But we're clearly going to get into that.

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Speaker 1: After breaking down a latched door, Sam Goldberg, Ellen's fiance,

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Speaker 1: discovered her body with a ten inch long kitchen knife

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Speaker 1: sticking out of her chest and stab wounds to her

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Speaker 1: back and also to her head. At the scene, police

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Speaker 1: shocked all of Ellen's family and friends when they ruled

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Speaker 1: her death as suicide. This is immediately like, this is

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Speaker 1: not an in depth investigation.

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Speaker 2: This is at this point it doesn't need to be.

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Speaker 2: If you see all those wounds, you gotta be quick

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Speaker 2: to assume.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's let's just take it back a step, because

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Speaker 1: I don't think they knew that there were twenty stab

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Speaker 1: wounds until the medical examiner did the autopsy later.

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Speaker 2: So they walk in and they see blood everywhere, knife wounds,

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Speaker 2: and they think their first thought is suicide.

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Speaker 1: What department is this? Well, let's go through it again.

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Speaker 1: We gotta take a deep dive. So after police removed

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Speaker 1: her body, a professional crime scene cleaning company wipe down

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Speaker 1: the kitchen thoroughly. The next day. I believe it was

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Speaker 1: the next.

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Speaker 2: Day crime scene cleaning.

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Speaker 1: It was a crime scene.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't like, let's lene housekeepers. We need Yeah, I

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Speaker 2: need it.

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Speaker 1: I need that company.

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Speaker 2: It's not cutting it. What we got.

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Speaker 1: We got a lot of kids and a lot of dogs. Then,

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Speaker 1: just days later, during her funeral, the Philadelphia Medical Examiner's

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Speaker 1: office ruled the case of homicide. Then, inexplicably, four months later,

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Speaker 1: Ellen's cause of death was switched back to suicide. The

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Speaker 1: city of Philadelphia closed the case without further investigation, and

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Speaker 1: Ellen Greenberg's bizarre and tragic death is the subject of

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Speaker 1: what we just talked about, the ABC News Studios docuseries

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Speaker 1: Death and apartment six' oh three. What happened to Ellen Greenberg?

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Speaker 1: All right, let's start with a timeline of events and

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Speaker 1: let's go through this. So we first we have to

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Speaker 1: talk about Ellen and Sam's relationship. So back in two

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Speaker 1: thousand and seven, Ellen met her fiance Sam Goldberg through

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Speaker 1: a mutual friend and they went on a blind date.

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Speaker 1: After three years of dating, Sam proposed to Ellen on

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Speaker 1: the beach during a trip to California, and Ellen and

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Speaker 1: Sam moved to an apartment in Mannayank, Philadelphia together. This

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Speaker 1: is still where I was. Still Back in twenty ten

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Speaker 1: and the month leading up to her death, Ellen's parents

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Speaker 1: and friends began to notice the significant change in her behavior. Ellen,

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Speaker 1: who had always been cheerful and composed, became increasingly anxious

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Speaker 1: and stressed. When questioned about these changes, Ellen attributed her

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Speaker 1: anxiety to work pressures and the stress of planning her wedding,

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Speaker 1: which was scheduled for August.

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Speaker 2: Of that year.

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Speaker 1: In December of twenty ten, her anxiety had reached a

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Speaker 1: point where she even expressed a desire to quit her job.

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Speaker 1: You know, she did this multiple times. They showed text

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Speaker 1: messages in the series where she's she's texting her mom,

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Speaker 1: and she's texting her fiance saying how much she hates

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Speaker 1: her job and how stressful it is, you know, and

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Speaker 1: it is. It is really hard to have a job.

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Speaker 1: I taught high school for four years before I went

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Speaker 1: to law school, and I would tell you that was

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Speaker 1: my least favorite job out of all the jobs I

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Speaker 1: have had. It was stressful teaching. I taught high school.

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Speaker 1: She's teaching first grade. But you know, you know her

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Speaker 1: colleagues and the other people in the school.

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Speaker 2: Or was it a newfound career, a new school maybe,

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Speaker 2: you know, a lot of changes, right, getting married, So

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Speaker 2: there's a lot of reasons for her to be stressed.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I don't question her level of stress. I

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Speaker 1: think she was clearly stressed out by this job. And

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Speaker 1: you know what bothered me when she would text her

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Speaker 1: fiance and say how much she disliked her job and

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Speaker 1: that she wanted to quit. He would say things like,

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Speaker 1: you're not a quitter, and that bothered me.

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Speaker 2: That was his way of trying to motivate here, like

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Speaker 2: you're better. Yeah, but that's not the that's not listening

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Speaker 2: to her problem.

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Speaker 1: Right, And I just felt like she's clearly, I mean,

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Speaker 1: this isn't just like I had a bad day. To me,

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Speaker 1: it was she was spiraling, and she was becoming increasingly

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Speaker 1: depressed and increasingly upset. And you know, I don't know

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Speaker 1: if there's other things. There's speculation that maybe there were

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Speaker 1: other things going on in their relationship that was adding

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Speaker 1: to her stress that she just didn't want to talk about.

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Speaker 1: But the only thing that she was verbalizing to anyone

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Speaker 1: was how stressful her job was. And I it just

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Speaker 1: it makes me sad because I feel like people missed

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Speaker 1: the the mark on how clearly sad she was. And

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Speaker 1: this is a young girl. I mean, she graduate from college.

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Speaker 1: She's clearly intelligent and talented.

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Speaker 2: She got as far as being able to get her

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Speaker 2: teaching credential.

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Speaker 1: Right, I mean, she could find another job easily. I

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Speaker 1: just I wish the fiance was like, if you're that miserable,

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Speaker 1: it's not worth it. You should you know, we should

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Speaker 1: do something and you should find something else.

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Speaker 2: I feel like you're trying to teach me something.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so are you listening to what I'm saying?

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Speaker 2: Be stressed?

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm always stressed. I'm always stressed, all right.

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Speaker 2: Duly noted she.

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Speaker 1: Was expressing a desire to quit her job, And then

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Speaker 1: she also said she wanted to move back home with

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Speaker 1: her parents, which is another kind of telling factor that

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Speaker 1: she's supposed to get married to Sam coming up, and

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Speaker 1: she's saying she's asking her parents if she can move

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Speaker 1: back home. So I don't know how how that works

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Speaker 1: and what she had in her mind or what was

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Speaker 1: going on that she is engaged, she's planning a wedding,

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Speaker 1: she's getting married soon, but.

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Speaker 2: She sounds like she has anyone to talk to, well

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Speaker 2: her mom, you know, well at least her close what

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Speaker 2: should be her closest fiance, right.

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Speaker 1: She says in a text to her parents, I want

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Speaker 1: to leave this place, get me out. Shortly thereafter, Ellen

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Speaker 1: had also asked a cousin who lived in the Philadelphia

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Speaker 1: area if she could temporarily move into the cousin's home

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Speaker 1: and stay with her family. When asked if her fiance

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Speaker 1: would also be joining her, Ellen did not respond. As

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Speaker 1: Ellen's anxiety continued to escalate, she saw a psychiatrist on

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Speaker 1: three different occasions who prescribed her klonipin and ambient. You know,

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Speaker 1: Ambien's a sleep aid and Clonipin's a type of anti

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Speaker 1: anxiety medication. Ellen initially reported to our loved ones that

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Speaker 1: the medication seemed effective and that she felt better. Now

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Speaker 1: we move on to twenty eleven, Ellen texted her mom, Sandra,

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Speaker 1: I'm starting the meds. I know you don't understand, but

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Speaker 1: I can't keep living with feeling this way. She then

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Speaker 1: saw her psychiatrist, doctor Ellen Berman, and the notes from

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Speaker 1: the visit say that she wants things in control my

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Speaker 1: whole life. She's been a hard worker, she's anxious that

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Speaker 1: she's not sleeping. Her job sucks. So again it all

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Speaker 1: goes back to those kid her career, Oh yes, and

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Speaker 1: those first greaders. Her psychiatrist also mentions that she never

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Speaker 1: revealed that there was any issues with her fiance. She

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Speaker 1: always spoke always the anxiety was always work related as

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Speaker 1: far as what she was expressing expressing. In January of

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Speaker 1: twenty eleven, Ellen saw psychiatrist doctor Ellen Berman again and

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Speaker 1: the notes from that visit said she wants to quit,

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Speaker 1: but mom and fiance don't want her to. She can

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Speaker 1: get out of contract with two weeks notice when she

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Speaker 1: starts to work on something and she starts thinking about

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Speaker 1: everything else, and she's not suicidal. So those are the

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Speaker 1: notes from the psychiatrists. This is shortly before her death.

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Speaker 1: Then on January nineteenth, Ellen saw the psychiatrist once more.

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Speaker 1: This was her third visit. I know she had three

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Speaker 1: visits with the psychiatrists before the incident happens. And the

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Speaker 1: notes from the visit say Ellen is way better, She

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Speaker 1: feels seventy five percent better. Agrees she should just get

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Speaker 1: through till June, which would be the end of the

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Speaker 1: school year, right right, And she tends to walk around

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Speaker 1: compulsive neatning up. That's a mean, that's like a nervous reaction.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes I do that if I have anxiety. It's like

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Speaker 1: you can't sit still. You have to constantly be doing things.

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Speaker 2: Have you ever noticed when you're mad at me, I

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Speaker 2: clean the house?

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Speaker 1: No, but I noticed that you never noticed that I

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Speaker 1: noticed that I clean the house when.

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Speaker 2: You're mad at me. No, you go in the bed

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Speaker 2: and look at Instagram and then I'm doing laundry. Oh

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Speaker 2: my gosh, So I can relate, Okay.

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Speaker 1: So January twenty second to twenty eleven, Ellen sent out

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Speaker 1: her save the dates for her upcoming wedding, which was

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Speaker 1: going to happen on August thirteenth of twenty eleven. Her

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Speaker 1: friend also had an upcoming wedding and they went shopping

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Speaker 1: for bridesmaid's dresses that day. While looking for a bridesmaid's dress,

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Speaker 1: Ellen began crying and told her friend, I'm so sorry.

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Speaker 1: I know I'm not myself, but I'll get it together.

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Speaker 2: Doesn't sound like seventy five percent. No.

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Speaker 1: January twenty six, twenty eleven. So this is four days

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Speaker 1: after she goes shopping for bridesmaid's dresses with her and

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Speaker 1: she's obviously not doing well. She's crying, she's saying she's

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Speaker 1: going to get herself together. This is the day of

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Speaker 1: her death. So for context, there was a huge snowstorm

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Speaker 1: that day. They call it a nor easter. I never

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Speaker 1: heard of that before. Have you heard of that before?

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Speaker 1: A nor' easter snow? I saw that multiple times in

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Speaker 1: articles and when they.

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Speaker 2: Were talking about like where it comes from, like northeast

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Speaker 2: or something.

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Speaker 1: Like that, I don't know. At seven am, this is

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Speaker 1: the day of her death. At seven am, Ellen spoke

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Speaker 1: to her mother. At twelve pm, Ellen received a text

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Speaker 1: from a friend, Yeah, you are getting out early. This

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Speaker 1: is in reference to the school closing early because of

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Speaker 1: the snow, and she replied with quote, thank goodness. At

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Speaker 1: one point fifteen.

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Speaker 2: She left her job, So thank goodness. In reference to

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Speaker 2: having a short work.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, having a short day. Right at one twenty six,

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Speaker 1: Ellen stopped for gas and topped off her tank. You know.

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Speaker 1: And I've heard some people say like, if you knew

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Speaker 1: you were going to commit suicide, why would you fill

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Speaker 1: your gas tank up or something like that.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I don't know that she knew she would, right,

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Speaker 2: And assuming it was a suicide, she contemplates it probably

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Speaker 2: regularly throughout the day, some days more than others. Right,

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Speaker 2: But she's not thinking like, I'm going to kill myself

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Speaker 2: on Tuesday evening, you know, if there's a snorrestorm when

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Speaker 2: we get out early. But first I gotta go grocery shopping.

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Speaker 2: I mean, they don't think like that. I don't imagine.

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Speaker 1: So then at two thirty she's in her apartment and

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Speaker 1: she remotely enters the grades for her first grade students.

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Speaker 1: Then at three forty seven pm, Ellen sends her final text.

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Speaker 1: At four forty five pm, and I think this is

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Speaker 1: I think we should hold onto this time period. Four

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Speaker 1: forty five pm, Ellen uses her laptop. I don't know

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Speaker 1: does Ellen use her laptop? Someone uses her laptop?

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Speaker 2: Okay, her laptop is used.

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Speaker 1: Her laptop is used at four forty five pm.

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Speaker 2: In her like, like, in what fashion does it used?

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I think they just I think they

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Speaker 1: just know. I don't know how it was used, but forensically,

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Speaker 1: for whatever reason, you can someone use the laptop. At

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Speaker 1: four forty five pm, Sam Goldberg, Ellen's fiance leaves the

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Speaker 1: couple's home, and surveillance at their apartment building captures Sam

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Speaker 1: entering the on site GEM. Now we know in the

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Speaker 1: apartment that they live in that there are there is

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Speaker 1: security in the lobby, okay, so you can see him

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Speaker 1: get off the elevator at that time time cameras cameras

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Speaker 1: that security. Yeah, well security cameras. Okay, you can see

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Speaker 1: him get off the elevator and go to the gym.

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Speaker 1: So you know that he left the apartment around four

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Speaker 1: forty five and he does go to the gym. Then

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Speaker 1: at five thirty PM, the cameras catch him exiting the

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Speaker 1: GEM on the first floor of the apartment complex and

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Speaker 1: then he returns to the apartment. When he returns to

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Speaker 1: the apartment at five thirty, he realizes he can't enter

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Speaker 1: because the latch was locked from the inside. So despite

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Speaker 1: using his key and banging on the door, Ellen would

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Speaker 1: not respond or unlock it. And you know what I'm

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Speaker 1: talking about. With one of those latches, it's that swing

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Speaker 1: latch like.

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Speaker 2: The old ones were like a chain, right, This is

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Speaker 2: like a latch that only from the inside could be locked,

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Speaker 2: and usually you can open it a little bit, if

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Speaker 2: at all.

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Speaker 1: So from five thirty to five forty two pm, Sam

401
00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:04,280
Speaker 1: repeated calls Ellen and sends her text. Also, they interviewed

402
00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:07,280
Speaker 1: another couple that lives on that same floor and the

403
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Speaker 1: only sound or disturbance they heard was Sam.

404
00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:13,919
Speaker 2: Trying to bust through the door trying to.

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00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:17,520
Speaker 1: Get into the apartment. Okay, so here are some texts

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Speaker 1: that he's sent. Hello, open the door. What are you doing?

407
00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:26,399
Speaker 1: I'm getting pissed. Hello, you better have an excuse? What

408
00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:29,800
Speaker 1: the ah? You have no idea? So those are the

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Speaker 1: texts that he's sending.

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Speaker 2: I have an issue with this. Okay, maybe it's premature

411
00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:38,760
Speaker 2: to break this down, but if you're not answering the door,

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Speaker 2: I've learned in life, if someone's like not answering the door,

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Speaker 2: they're running late. The first thing you do is see

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Speaker 2: if they're okay. So if I'm banging on the door,

415
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Speaker 2: and you're going to answering. I'm gonna get frustrated, But

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Speaker 2: I'm also gonna think, are you laying in a pull

417
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Speaker 2: of blood or something like? This guy is getting pissed

418
00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:54,960
Speaker 2: at her, like like she's refusing to open the door

419
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Speaker 2: for him. Is that normal behavior for them?

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Speaker 3: Well?

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00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:00,520
Speaker 1: I don't know, And that's a good question, and that's

422
00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:05,320
Speaker 1: something that probably should be analyzed. Is he's not saying

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00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:06,480
Speaker 1: are you okay?

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Speaker 2: Or why aren't you opening the door?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he's not calling her mom and saying have you

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Speaker 1: talked to Ellen? Is she okay?

427
00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:18,119
Speaker 2: He's pissed, right, He could also just assume she's asleep.

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Speaker 2: I mean that would be well.

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Speaker 1: I guess also maybe he's thinking, why did she do

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Speaker 1: the swing last right?

431
00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:28,560
Speaker 2: Right? He knows she's inside or someone's inside because it's

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Speaker 2: locked from the inside, but he's mad at her like

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Speaker 2: like she's refusing.

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Speaker 1: Well, then that's a good that's an interesting observation or

435
00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:39,399
Speaker 1: question because did they get in a fight before he

436
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Speaker 1: left the apartment. I don't know, because is he thinking that.

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Speaker 2: She did the lock right? Right? If they had an

438
00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:50,080
Speaker 2: ongoing issue, then it would make sense like you're ignoring

439
00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:52,120
Speaker 2: me open the door, like, this isn't what we do,

440
00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:53,520
Speaker 2: but that's I don't know.

441
00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:57,360
Speaker 1: So then after sending these texts, Sam then went downstairs

442
00:20:57,400 --> 00:20:59,840
Speaker 1: again to the lobby and he asked Phil Hamton, the

443
00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:03,800
Speaker 1: door man, to help him break the lock. Phil told

444
00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:06,800
Speaker 1: him that he wasn't allowed to leave his post. So

445
00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:08,840
Speaker 1: at this time, Sam, this.

446
00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:10,840
Speaker 2: Is even another problem. Did he go to the doorman

447
00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:13,720
Speaker 2: and say something might be wrong she's not opened the

448
00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:16,119
Speaker 2: door or he I mean, so far, you're acting like

449
00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:19,280
Speaker 2: he's saying, she's mad at me and won't open the door.

450
00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:22,080
Speaker 2: Can he help me break the lock? Right?

451
00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:25,879
Speaker 1: So, you're saying if he was truly concerned about her

452
00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:28,680
Speaker 1: safety and health, he could have said you need to

453
00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:30,560
Speaker 1: call nine one one, because she says that would.

454
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,200
Speaker 2: Have been if he had, if he had concerns for her,

455
00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:36,640
Speaker 2: that would be I think a typical responsive like she's

456
00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:39,600
Speaker 2: not opening what's going on? Instead, it's more like, at

457
00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:43,879
Speaker 2: least from what you just read, he's saying, she's she

458
00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:45,680
Speaker 2: won't open the door for me. Can you break the lock?

459
00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:50,600
Speaker 1: Yes, he does ask that's odd the door man.

460
00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:52,679
Speaker 2: I'm not saying he's guilty. I'm just talking about that

461
00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:54,920
Speaker 2: behavior isn't it wouldn't be typical.

462
00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:59,960
Speaker 1: So the doorman, Phil, who they also interview on the HULUCI,

463
00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:02,280
Speaker 1: tells him that he's not allowed to leave his post.

464
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:06,520
Speaker 1: I guess they had changed for this apartment complex. They

465
00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:08,920
Speaker 1: had changed up some things in the security or close.

466
00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:10,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, it would make sense. He's like, if I leave here,

467
00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:13,000
Speaker 2: then I compromise the front door, which is what his

468
00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:13,680
Speaker 2: assignment is.

469
00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:18,080
Speaker 1: So at five point forty four, neighbors heard Sam call

470
00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:22,240
Speaker 1: Ellen's name out several times. At six pm, Sam goes

471
00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:25,640
Speaker 1: downstairs again to request help from Phil, but Phil tells

472
00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:29,320
Speaker 1: him that it's against policy. He offers to call Ellen instead.

473
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:33,040
Speaker 1: Ellen Cell gets two calls from Venice Lofts, but no

474
00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:36,199
Speaker 1: one answers. Ellen Cell gets another call from Venice Lofts,

475
00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:39,479
Speaker 1: but no one answers, so Phil offers to call the police.

476
00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:41,679
Speaker 1: This is at six oh seven and six'. Ten so

477
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:46,159
Speaker 1: now the security or the door, man whatever you want

478
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,160
Speaker 1: to call, him is now calling and she's not. Answering

479
00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:52,080
Speaker 1: then at six twenty three, Pm sam is seen on

480
00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:55,840
Speaker 1: the surveillance camera entering the elevator and at six point

481
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:59,400
Speaker 1: thirty pm he proceeds to break down the door to their. Apartment,

482
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:02,920
Speaker 1: inside he Finds ellen slumped on the floor in the,

483
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,800
Speaker 1: kitchen leaning against the cabinets with blood, everywhere and he

484
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:12,160
Speaker 1: calls nine to one. One all, Right so here's where

485
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:19,320
Speaker 1: it gets all muddled to, me clearly maybe possibly, wait

486
00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:19,720
Speaker 1: she is it?

487
00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:21,000
Speaker 2: Clearly or MAYBE i don't.

488
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:24,160
Speaker 1: Know this is Where i'm saying it's. Muddled it's all it's.

489
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:27,919
Speaker 1: Hard the two scenarios are she either committed suicide Or

490
00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:29,520
Speaker 1: sam killed. Her there is no other.

491
00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:34,080
Speaker 2: Option, yeah your analytical skills today.

492
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:38,960
Speaker 1: Exactly, however he claims that when he left the apartment

493
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:40,720
Speaker 1: to go to the, gym that she was.

494
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:42,040
Speaker 2: Alive and how long was he?

495
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:46,000
Speaker 1: Gone he was gone thirty, minutes forty, Minutes so she

496
00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:51,200
Speaker 1: either committed suicide within that small, timeframe latched the, door committed, suicide,

497
00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:55,199
Speaker 1: right or it's also possible that if it was a,

498
00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:57,600
Speaker 1: murder that he killed her before he went to the.

499
00:23:57,640 --> 00:23:58,320
Speaker 1: Gym it's.

500
00:23:58,400 --> 00:23:59,320
Speaker 2: Possible so that's a.

501
00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:05,159
Speaker 1: Possibility but then what about the door, Latch, well that's another.

502
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:08,639
Speaker 1: Conundrum BUT i guess it is possible that he could

503
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:12,719
Speaker 1: have had the forethought to manipulate because there are, videos

504
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:15,400
Speaker 1: you can watch videos of how to manipulate that swing.

505
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 1: Latch you can pull. It there's, like there's ways to pull.

506
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:20,560
Speaker 2: It we don't have an answer to. This but he

507
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,320
Speaker 2: from the, inside he could have latched it and then

508
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,200
Speaker 2: pull forced it. Open that's a little bit of a.

509
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:28,480
Speaker 2: Stretch NOW i think about, it because it's you're, saying

510
00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:33,560
Speaker 2: so it could busted it open from the. Inside, oh

511
00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:35,560
Speaker 2: you're saying it was never actual to make it look Like,

512
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:39,480
Speaker 2: no it was latch like for, instance it's a little

513
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 2: bit of a. Stretch but he goes, inside he kills or,

514
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,880
Speaker 2: whatever he latches the door from the inside and he's

515
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:48,200
Speaker 2: on the, inside and now he pulls the door open

516
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:50,720
Speaker 2: and busts it open with the. Latch so it looked

517
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:52,440
Speaker 2: like from the outside he kicked it, in but it's

518
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:53,359
Speaker 2: from the inside he pulled it.

519
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:55,080
Speaker 1: Open but he goes to the. Gym so when does

520
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 1: he go to the? Gym and then when he shuts the,

521
00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:57,440
Speaker 1: door what does he?

522
00:24:57,520 --> 00:24:59,800
Speaker 2: DO i don't. Know you're, right this is a. Mess

523
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:02,439
Speaker 2: it IS i said it was a.

524
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,400
Speaker 1: Stretch, yeah, Okay so he calls nine one one upon

525
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:07,320
Speaker 1: entering the apartment and finding her in the.

526
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:11,960
Speaker 2: Kitchen, well, no, wait then if it's, latched the only

527
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,240
Speaker 2: way it could have, been then could you just shut

528
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 2: down my? Theory, okay the only way it could have been,

529
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:20,719
Speaker 2: was like you, said he manipulated it to latch it

530
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:23,160
Speaker 2: on his way out after he had killed. Her had

531
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:24,119
Speaker 2: he killed her at, all.

532
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:30,160
Speaker 1: Or there's the possibility that it was never latched and

533
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,480
Speaker 1: somehow this guy was just so diabolical and smart he

534
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:34,119
Speaker 1: knew he.

535
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:35,119
Speaker 2: Just busted the latch.

536
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:38,680
Speaker 1: Somehow, yeah BECAUSE i took UP i have a. Photo

537
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 1: she shook a picture on the screen WHEN i was watching,

538
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,479
Speaker 1: it because they have a photo of the, latch AND

539
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,440
Speaker 1: i wanted to see if it was actually see, it describe.

540
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,359
Speaker 2: It so you thought you you thought you saw the.

541
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 1: CRIME i was, Like i'm gonna solve this right.

542
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 2: Now zoom.

543
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:55,719
Speaker 1: In, Yes i'm zooming. In so look this is what

544
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:56,399
Speaker 1: the door looks.

545
00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:58,639
Speaker 2: Like, yeah it's a latch like a, hotel like the.

546
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:02,320
Speaker 2: Hotel what this? Is what the? Door oh that's it?

547
00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:03,880
Speaker 2: Broken oh that's the real. One let me see.

548
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 1: It, yeah that's the real.

549
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 2: One this is.

550
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 1: Ok this is the crime scene.

551
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:11,359
Speaker 2: Photo oh, YEAH i don't know if we're going to

552
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:12,679
Speaker 2: kick that. OPEN i think it would be a lot

553
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:14,480
Speaker 2: more bust. NIGHT i remember WHEN I keller got locked

554
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:16,680
Speaker 2: in a bathroom door AND i busted it. Open, yeah

555
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 2: you did how much wood?

556
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 1: Damage that was so hot when you did.

557
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:21,920
Speaker 2: THAT i can break the door tonight if you, Want

558
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:24,480
Speaker 2: i'll lock you in the bathroom and break you.

559
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:28,120
Speaker 1: Out that was actually At Elizabeth vargas's. House i'd never

560
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 1: bring up housewise on the, podcast but this is probably

561
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:32,480
Speaker 1: the first Time i've ever done. That but that Was

562
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:35,920
Speaker 1: Elizabeth vargas's. House that big color was stuck in the.

563
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 1: Callerroom she did some remodeling on that house and they

564
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:41,399
Speaker 1: did a crappy job on a bathroom And keller went

565
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 1: to the bathroom and he got locked in it for

566
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:45,400
Speaker 1: a long, time an.

567
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:46,199
Speaker 2: Hour No.

568
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 1: Joe we slid the, iPad his iPad underneath the bathroom doors.

569
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 2: To entertain them so that he could.

570
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:55,679
Speaker 1: Watch videos until we could get him. Out and So

571
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 1: elizabeth sends over the handyman to get my child out

572
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,320
Speaker 1: of the. Bathroom the handy man cannot get this child,

573
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:03,440
Speaker 1: out he can't get the lock to. Work shane gets

574
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 1: so frustrated he just goes all a hulk on it

575
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 1: and he just takes the whole door.

576
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:09,440
Speaker 2: DOWN i think it was two.

577
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 1: KICKS i don't, know but it was.

578
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:13,440
Speaker 2: Hot it was a lot more wood broken than that little.

579
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:25,200
Speaker 1: Thing, yes it was all. Right the operator Instructs sam

580
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:30,360
Speaker 1: to Remove ellen's sweater and to ADMINISTER. Cpr when he

581
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 1: lifts her slouched, head he discovers the knife lodged in her,

582
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 1: chest and the operator instructs him to stop ADMINISTERING cpr and,

583
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,439
Speaker 1: says the paramedics are on the. Way we have to

584
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 1: go into this a little bit deeper. Though when HE'S i,

585
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,120
Speaker 1: actually they show the nine to one one call wor

586
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,160
Speaker 1: you can listen to. It the nine one one operator

587
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 1: says to him multiple times because he says she's bleeding

588
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 1: and she's on the. Floor the operator, says look at

589
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:56,919
Speaker 1: her chest to see what's the movie, like look at her,

590
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 1: chest look at her. Chest she says it a few.

591
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:00,639
Speaker 1: Times then she, says, okay, hey you need to DO,

592
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 1: cpr and then he says something to the effect of

593
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 1: DO i have to or something like. That, no he

594
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 1: does this IS i, mean he, says, LIKE i GUESS

595
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 1: i have. To like he's. Not he's not, like, YES

596
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:12,720
Speaker 1: i have to GIVE cpr to.

597
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 2: Her, no it is a little bit of a laughable.

598
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:15,439
Speaker 2: Response it.

599
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 1: Is he says something to the effect of, LIKE i

600
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 1: GUESS i really have to or. Something then, okay remember

601
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:25,280
Speaker 1: this woman is slumped. Down she slumped, like she slid

602
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:28,879
Speaker 1: down the. Cabinets, okay she's, sitting her legs are sprawled

603
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 1: out in front of. Her she has a knife in her.

604
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 1: Heart he walks into the, apartment he calls nine to one,

605
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:36,639
Speaker 1: one and he never makes reference to there being a

606
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 1: knife in her heart until like halfway through the, call

607
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 1: when she tells him that he needs to DO cpr

608
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 1: and he's, like, okay all, right and she's, like you

609
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 1: got to open her. Shirt you gotta get her sweater.

610
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:49,040
Speaker 1: Off and he's, like.

611
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 2: OKAY i forgot one small. Detail, yeah there's a knife

612
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 2: in her.

613
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:54,080
Speaker 1: Heart and then all of a sudden he's, like oh,

614
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:57,400
Speaker 1: wait she stabbed. Herself so the way the nine one

615
00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 1: one call sounds is like he never noticed the knife

616
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:05,479
Speaker 1: sticking out of her chest and then he notices it

617
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 1: on the nine one one call and then he, says

618
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 1: she stabbed. Herself, no she fell on her. KNIFE i.

619
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 1: Know so the nine one one call is.

620
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 2: Strange everything's strange so.

621
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:22,480
Speaker 1: Far and, again we've talked about how in certain circumstances

622
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 1: that we've never been in like when we even talk

623
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 1: about The Brian coberger cases and the fact that the

624
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 1: girls didn't call until.

625
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 2: Right we don't know what reactions there, are, Right we're.

626
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 1: Trying not to be judgmental because we've never been in that.

627
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 1: Situation i've never walked into an apartment and someone needed

628
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 1: nine to one. One, however his responses do sound. Strange

629
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 1: she sounds like he doesn't want to give HER. Cpr

630
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:47,720
Speaker 1: he doesn't seem to notice the.

631
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 2: Knife sounds like he doesn't want to bring her back to.

632
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 1: Life, yeah sticking out of her chest until. Later AND

633
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 1: i don't know how you don't notice. THAT i mean to,

634
00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 1: me when you open the door and you walk in the,

635
00:29:58,040 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 1: apartment that would be the first thing that you notice

636
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 1: is that she a knife plunged into her.

637
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 2: Chest, right did he move her at? All like before

638
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 2: He because my thought would be if you walk and

639
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 2: you see someone like, that you would be quick to

640
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 2: call nine one, One but you'd probably also be quick

641
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 2: to go attend them in some, way even if it's

642
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 2: just checking on them or moving them in a more comfortable,

643
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 2: position or pulling the knife out or. SOMETHING i don't

644
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 2: if you would do.

645
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 1: Something, Yeah so they Find ellen so then at six

646
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 1: thirty six, pm emergency responders arrive on. Scene that's because

647
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 1: once he says that there's a knife in her, obviously

648
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 1: the operator, says then don't DO, cpr, like don't touch.

649
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,080
Speaker 1: Her they Find ellen in a semi upright position between

650
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 1: two corner, cabinets with a serrated knife plunged four inches

651
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 1: into her, chest a strainer filled with blueberries and an

652
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 1: orange appearing freshly slice rested on the. Counter two clean

653
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 1: knives are in the, sink and the knife block looked

654
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:57,840
Speaker 1: as if it fell. Over ellen suffered twenty stab wounds in. Total,

655
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 1: however a caveat just about the stab. Wounds they don't

656
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 1: know that there's twenty stab wounds until after she's taken

657
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:07,480
Speaker 1: away from the scene and the medical examiner they just

658
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 1: see the one knife in see and she has a

659
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 1: wound in the top of her head that's like two.

660
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 1: Inches so it's six forty two. Pm ellen's pronounced dead

661
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 1: at the. Scene when police Questions, sam he tells them

662
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:24,240
Speaker 1: About ellen's medication and her poor mental. Health the police

663
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 1: rule her death as. Suicide, now they say that they

664
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 1: ruled it a suicide pretty quickly one because they said

665
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 1: that the door was latched from the. Inside, NOW i

666
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 1: don't know how much they investigated the door actually being

667
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 1: last or they just take his Door kate, suicide or

668
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 1: if they just take his word for it and they

669
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 1: see because WHEN i was.

670
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 2: Looking at your, picture it looks like the latch you,

671
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 2: COULD i mean you could you could literally gank it

672
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:51,960
Speaker 2: also just with your, hand like you, know because it

673
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 2: protrudes out and you can just pull it with your

674
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 2: hand like a lever and then try To and it

675
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 2: only had like the screws busted. Out it wasn't that.

676
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 1: Impressive so they take his word for that it was

677
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 1: from the. Inside so the police are, saying, okay well

678
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 1: the door was locked from the. Inside they look and

679
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 1: then the balcony there's fresh. Snow there's no, footprints so they're, like,

680
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 1: well it couldn't have been anyone. Else there's no surveillance

681
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,479
Speaker 1: video of anyone else going in or out to go

682
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 1: up to that. Floor the neighbors don't hear any disturbance

683
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:25,240
Speaker 1: other than him yelling.

684
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 2: Her doorman never left his, post, right.

685
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 1: The doorman didn't leave his. Post so and then he

686
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:33,479
Speaker 1: Says sam says that there's mental health issues and that

687
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 1: she was kind of spiraling and that she was taking

688
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 1: these new. Medications and so they rule a suicide pretty

689
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:44,760
Speaker 1: much on scene and then the body's taken. Away So

690
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 1: january twenty, seventh two thousand and, eight.

691
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 2: At least left it, open like do they have to

692
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 2: determine right then and? There they certainly should have left it.

693
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 2: Open it's. QUESTIONABLE i don't.

694
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 1: Know they just said they found him, cooperative AND i guess.

695
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 1: HE i don't, know he, cooperating and the door latch was,

696
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 1: busted and she had some mental health issues and there

697
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 1: was no, Suit there was no suicide, note and as

698
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 1: far AS i, REMEMBER i think at that time there

699
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 1: was nothing. There she also had a, laptop AND i

700
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:17,960
Speaker 1: believed that they didn't find any kind of evidence or

701
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:20,080
Speaker 1: search or anything on her laptop to indicate.

702
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 2: Suicide, yeah but.

703
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 1: They still ruled it a suicide at that, time not even,

704
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 1: undetermined just. Suicide that was the police. Investigation you. Know

705
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 1: that was another THING i was thinking, About AND i don't.

706
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 1: KNOW i did end up reading later BECAUSE i, thought,

707
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 1: well who else did he? Call did they do a

708
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 1: forensic analysis on his phone at? All did they see

709
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 1: not only was he calling her or texting, her but

710
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:45,959
Speaker 1: was he calling anyone? Else was? He you?

711
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 3: Know?

712
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 2: Yeah and you, KNOW.

713
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 1: I don't know about. THAT i did read that there

714
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 1: was some inconsistencies later with him saying he had called

715
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 1: certain people or, whatever and then it oh the lot.

716
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:03,280
Speaker 2: Because he don't never really bother. Me it's, like, okay

717
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:06,160
Speaker 2: so someone said they called PERSON a and then PERSON,

718
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:07,880
Speaker 2: b and then they said it WAS b and THEN.

719
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 2: A i, mean there's a lot going. On no one really.

720
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:11,600
Speaker 2: Is no one's keeping track of what's going.

721
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 1: On so On january twenty, seventh twenty, Eleven ellen's body

722
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:20,400
Speaker 1: was removed from The venicelov departments and transported to a

723
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:24,759
Speaker 1: morgue for an. Autopsy Before ellen's autopsy was completed and

724
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 1: the results of the professional examination were, Known Sam goldberg's,

725
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 1: lawyer who is his, uncle who is also a, Lawyer James.

726
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:36,839
Speaker 1: Schwartzman this is very interesting to, me and this is

727
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:40,160
Speaker 1: what pushes me over into the murder. Side so let's

728
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:44,239
Speaker 1: talk about. This Sam goldberg has an uncle who is a.

729
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:48,719
Speaker 1: Lawyer his name Is James. Schwartzman he called the apartment

730
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 1: building's property manager requesting access To ellen And sam's. Apartment

731
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:59,040
Speaker 1: so here's a, Doctor Marlon osborne is performing an autopsy On.

732
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:02,480
Speaker 1: Ellen in his, examination he notes multiple stab wounds to

733
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 1: the chess abdomen in the back of the. Neck he

734
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:08,719
Speaker 1: creates a draft autopsy report and finds. Homicide so here's

735
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 1: where the conflict. Begins you've got the police who find

736
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:15,359
Speaker 1: her body that night and rule it a suicide immediately

737
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 1: based upon certain factors the door, Latch sam being cooperative

738
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:23,319
Speaker 1: and no one else could have hosted. Something but then

739
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 1: the medical examiner does the autopsy and then he rules

740
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 1: it a. Homicide so now you've got two conflicting, reports,

741
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 1: right and then you've.

742
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:35,239
Speaker 2: Got i'd side with the homicide at this. Point but then.

743
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 1: You've got the uncle Of, sam who is a, lawyer

744
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:42,240
Speaker 1: who is now calling the apartment complex and wants access

745
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:46,240
Speaker 1: into the. Apartment so the property manager Of Venice Loft,

746
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:49,360
Speaker 1: apartments her name Is Melissa, Ware she contacts the police

747
00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:51,840
Speaker 1: after the uncle calls and asks for access to the

748
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 1: apartment because he says he wants to get a suit

749
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:57,880
Speaker 1: for his. Nephew the police apartment Tells melissa it was

750
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 1: not an active crime scene, anymore and then they gave

751
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 1: her the number of a crime scene cleanup crew to

752
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:03,520
Speaker 1: use for the.

753
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 2: Apartment how soon is this after the C it's like

754
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 2: the next. Day, WOW i would, UH i would not

755
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:10,440
Speaker 2: BE i don't know if i'd be so quick to

756
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 2: CLEAN i don't. KNOW i don't.

757
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 4: Know, AGAIN i believe it was a if it was,

758
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 4: me you were, dad, Okay, yeah and it was clearly

759
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 4: SO i know it's a suicide Because i'm the only, person,

760
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 4: RIGHT i know it's a.

761
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:28,439
Speaker 2: Suicide, Yeah i'd call a cleanup crew probably quickly. Too.

762
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 2: Yeah but also IF i murdered, you i'd call it

763
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:35,319
Speaker 2: cleanup quickly. TOO i don't have any.

764
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:38,880
Speaker 1: Answers, well it's his uncle that is asking for access

765
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:40,480
Speaker 1: to the apartment, immediately.

766
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:43,279
Speaker 2: Right right, Right and he doesn't get a. Suit he,

767
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 2: says it's under the.

768
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 1: Pretense of wanting to get a, suit probably for the. Funeral,

769
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:52,279
Speaker 1: okay police say. So when she asked the, police which

770
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:54,000
Speaker 1: was the right thing to, do, right she doesn't grant

771
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 1: this guy, Access she, says let me call the.

772
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:58,400
Speaker 2: Police, first the crime, scene, Right so she does the right.

773
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 1: Thing she calls the police and she's, LIKE i don't you,

774
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:02,359
Speaker 1: know CAN i let him? In and they're like, sure

775
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:04,880
Speaker 1: it's already been ruled, suicide and, oh and by the,

776
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:08,200
Speaker 1: way you can let him. In and also here's the

777
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:10,799
Speaker 1: number of a crime scene cleanup, crew so that they

778
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 1: can go in and just really just wipe the blaze down.

779
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:14,480
Speaker 2: Perfectly.

780
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:19,960
Speaker 1: Right so the next day the uncle comes to the,

781
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 1: apartment but he doesn't just take a. Suit he takes her.

782
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 1: Devices he takes her laptop and her phone and her.

783
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:32,719
Speaker 1: Purse see that's Where i'm, like.

784
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 2: He knew what he was, doing whether he knew that

785
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:42,320
Speaker 2: there was a conflict with homicide versus, suicide and whether

786
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:44,920
Speaker 2: he knew what happened or, not he took it probably

787
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:49,239
Speaker 2: just just to smother. It so the kind of attorney was?

788
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:50,839
Speaker 2: He was he a? Criminal you, KNOW i don't.

789
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:52,400
Speaker 1: KNOW i DIDN'T i didn't. KNOW i don't know.

790
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:53,920
Speaker 2: That it's.

791
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:01,800
Speaker 1: So the apartment manager Called James, schwartzman and again Remember

792
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:06,359
Speaker 1: James schwartzman is the uncle the attorney, uncle and told

793
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 1: him that he could have access to the premises and

794
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 1: relayed the recommendation of a crime scene cleanup. Service so she, says,

795
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:15,040
Speaker 1: okay the police said you can go get a. Suit

796
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:19,080
Speaker 1: also they said THAT i should hire a crime scene Cleanup.

797
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:21,719
Speaker 2: YEAH i bet Sh sam told his uncle to take

798
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:25,080
Speaker 2: the devices while you're, there can you grab some of

799
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:25,839
Speaker 2: this incriminating?

800
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:28,759
Speaker 1: Device or the uncle is looking out for a right

801
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:29,920
Speaker 1: that was my first.

802
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:31,920
Speaker 2: Thought right Now i'm, thinking, well Maybe sam's, like can

803
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:32,400
Speaker 2: you grab her?

804
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:35,960
Speaker 1: Devices so Then schwartzman agrees for the family to pay

805
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 1: the costs of the crime scene, cleanup and she arranged

806
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:40,920
Speaker 1: for the services to be completed before he and his

807
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:44,320
Speaker 1: son even are, right he and his son would be

808
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:49,040
Speaker 1: his cousin arrive at the. Complex so this all happens,

809
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:51,239
Speaker 1: quickly very. QUICKLY i, mean you've got the next, Day

810
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 1: you've got this guy wants access to the. Apartment he

811
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:54,880
Speaker 1: wants to get a, suit he, says a. Suit he

812
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 1: takes the computer to her purse and her, phone and

813
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 1: he also pays for a crime scene cleanup to come

814
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:04,759
Speaker 1: in and wipe everything. Down James schwartzman showed up and

815
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:06,799
Speaker 1: removed not only a sue from the, apartment but Also

816
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 1: ellen's per cell phone and. Laptop so that's WHERE i can.

817
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:16,240
Speaker 1: GO i can maybe hang my hat on the. SUICIDE

818
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 1: i can, think you, know stabbing yourself seems like a

819
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:26,520
Speaker 1: really really very, difficult, difficult difficult and, long.

820
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:30,399
Speaker 2: And she didn't have such a history of mental struggles

821
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:33,120
Speaker 2: to be able to like justify, like, oh, yeah she

822
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:35,880
Speaker 2: was really out, there you, know like drug use this and.

823
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:38,399
Speaker 2: That so she's numb to, things and then she kind

824
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 2: of is violent towards herself or cutting or anything like.

825
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:43,160
Speaker 1: That, yeah you're saying there's no. Precursor, NO i guess.

826
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:44,839
Speaker 2: Is i'm a first grade. Teacher and then her choice

827
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:47,719
Speaker 2: of suicide is stabbing HERSELF i know many, times and

828
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:50,279
Speaker 2: then cutting her head and stabbing her neck and all that.

829
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:53,560
Speaker 1: STUFF i. Know but you know, what the majority of

830
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:58,840
Speaker 1: the stab wounds are very, superficial not, deep not. Deep

831
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 1: and WHAT i learned was a lot of, people if

832
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,840
Speaker 1: they not a lot of people choose stabbing for, suicide

833
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:09,520
Speaker 1: let's be clear on. That but if they, do there

834
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:12,360
Speaker 1: are some cases of. It there are a lot of

835
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:16,840
Speaker 1: times it's. Superficial where there's superficial because they're called, hesitation,

836
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:21,839
Speaker 1: right because it's you're working yourself up to.

837
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 2: It it's hard to actually fully stab yourself AND i imagine, so,

838
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 2: right so it's.

839
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:32,759
Speaker 1: Like you're you're, trying and you're kind of seeing and

840
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:37,719
Speaker 1: then SO i think it's out. THERE i think it's

841
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 1: difficult to grasp. That BUT i don't think it's.

842
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:45,720
Speaker 2: Impossible, no it's it's been done. Before and also already

843
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 2: laying did that already Laying oh, yeah. Yeah he. STABBING

844
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:52,279
Speaker 2: i think on two different occasions he stabbed. Himself, wow didn't.

845
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:54,960
Speaker 2: Succeed but he also had high and that's What i'm.

846
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:58,279
Speaker 2: Getting he had a lot of, cocaine, used drug, use very,

847
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:02,759
Speaker 2: extreme a lot of adrenaline to be able to do

848
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 2: such a. Thing she's the first grade. TEACHER i know

849
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:07,879
Speaker 2: that comes with, stress but maybe not not to this.

850
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:10,359
Speaker 1: Level you. Know ALL i can think is that she

851
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 1: was really really, spiraling and she was on medication and

852
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:16,919
Speaker 1: you've got and she probably they, said she went from

853
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 1: like this, happy go, lucky like never had any, anxiety

854
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:22,080
Speaker 1: to all of a, sudden she's closed. Off she's not

855
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:25,880
Speaker 1: sharing things with, friends and she has all this anxiety

856
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:27,839
Speaker 1: about her. Job and maybe it was more than her.

857
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:29,799
Speaker 1: Job maybe there was a lot more things going on

858
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:33,920
Speaker 1: that she was just not. Verbalizing So january twenty, eighth twenty,

859
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:38,560
Speaker 1: eleven the autopsy findings are that Doctor osborne classified the

860
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:41,759
Speaker 1: death as a, homicide which obviously contradicts with what the

861
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 1: police department rolled, it which was a. Suicide his findings

862
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 1: from the autopsy On january twenty seventh provide critical details

863
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 1: about the cause of death and the nature of the.

864
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 1: Injury Sustain there were multiple stab. Wounds ellen had numerous

865
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:56,880
Speaker 1: stab wounds to the, chess, abdomen and back of the.

866
00:41:56,920 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 1: Neck the stab wounds affected vital areas including the aortic,

867
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:05,400
Speaker 1: arch left, lung and cervical. Spine this indicates severe trauma

868
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:09,319
Speaker 1: to essential organs and. Structures the presence this is also.

869
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 1: Important they're also found in the autopsy that there was

870
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:17,320
Speaker 1: the presence of multiple bruises at different stages of, healing

871
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:22,960
Speaker 1: which would suggest a pattern of physical altercations or abuse

872
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:23,960
Speaker 1: occurring over.

873
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:25,799
Speaker 2: Time and where were the bruises all?

874
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 1: OVER i think she had eleven different bruises on, arms.

875
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:30,319
Speaker 1: Legs oh.

876
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:31,960
Speaker 2: Wow so then.

877
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:34,840
Speaker 1: Again you can take from it what you. Want but

878
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:38,960
Speaker 1: maybe a lot of the stress didn't have so much

879
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:43,600
Speaker 1: to do with workplace, workplace but maybe there was abuse at.

880
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 2: Home you know what the.

881
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:46,480
Speaker 1: Boyfriend if.

882
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:49,880
Speaker 2: This is a case where you, think oh, wow maybe

883
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:53,200
Speaker 2: it was, murder but then had he been arresting, convicted

884
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 2: we probably do be doing a podcast on there's not enough.

885
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:56,799
Speaker 2: EVIDENCE i, know.

886
00:42:56,840 --> 00:42:59,200
Speaker 1: AND i thought about THAT i, thought if they ruled

887
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 1: it a homicide and they arrested him and he went to,

888
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 1: Trial i'd be sitting right here saying the same thing

889
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 1: that he probably did. It BUT i don't know IF

890
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:11,160
Speaker 1: i would convict him IF i were on that, jury

891
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:12,320
Speaker 1: because there's reasonable.

892
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:15,400
Speaker 2: Doubt what had they done a proper investigation OR i

893
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:19,719
Speaker 2: shouldn't say, proper more thorough with her. DEVICES i don't

894
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:23,759
Speaker 2: know what else there, was what eyewitness testimony or ear,

895
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 2: witness you, know what people can hear nearby all that

896
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:29,960
Speaker 2: maybe there'd be more evidence one way or, another.

897
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:31,319
Speaker 1: And maybe there should have. BEEN i, MEAN i don't

898
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:33,120
Speaker 1: know that they ever gave him a lie detector. Test

899
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:35,560
Speaker 1: AND i mean. THAT i know you can say whatever

900
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:38,359
Speaker 1: you want about lie detector, tests but every police force uses,

901
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:39,480
Speaker 1: them THE cia and THE.

902
00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:41,960
Speaker 2: Fbi for indictments and all kinds of.

903
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:45,000
Speaker 1: Things i'm, saying if he had been given a lie

904
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 1: detector test about his story and the latch and all

905
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:51,600
Speaker 1: that he, passed then that's something that's. Something but if

906
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:55,120
Speaker 1: there was deceit, noted that's something that's another route to.

907
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:56,360
Speaker 1: Go and they they didn't do.

908
00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:59,439
Speaker 2: That ALTHOUGH i just watched a video and was reading

909
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 2: up on a man who was convicted of killing his

910
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:04,319
Speaker 2: wife even though he. Hadn't he was released twenty five years.

911
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:08,920
Speaker 2: Later he passed two light detector tests during the. Investigation did?

912
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:10,560
Speaker 2: Matter they still arrested him and convicted.

913
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:14,200
Speaker 1: Him, yeah, Wrongfully that does. Help it does. Happen, then

914
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:16,920
Speaker 1: The commonwealth Of pennsylvania issued a search, warrant and the

915
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:20,560
Speaker 1: items they searched and seize are listed. Below it was assorted,

916
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:23,279
Speaker 1: knives the blood, samples a serrated knife with the black,

917
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:26,279
Speaker 1: handle a bloody hand towel found in the. Kitchen other

918
00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:29,880
Speaker 1: potential evidence items related to the crime. Scene assorted, clothing

919
00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:33,600
Speaker 1: a diamond ring she didn't, wear her ring, fingerprints and

920
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:36,799
Speaker 1: a rubber made. Container and also when they found this

921
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 1: IS i don't know what to make of, this but

922
00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 1: when they found her, body when she was slumped down

923
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:44,640
Speaker 1: and they found her and she was, deceased she had

924
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:48,360
Speaker 1: a white towel in one of her hands that didn't

925
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:51,160
Speaker 1: have any blood on. It it was pretty. Pristine SO

926
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:53,000
Speaker 1: i don't know what to make of that other than,

927
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:56,239
Speaker 1: maybe like if she did commit, suicide then maybe on

928
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:58,919
Speaker 1: the like she's losing her life and she slumps, down

929
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:01,200
Speaker 1: maybe she grabs it off the ca she's holding on to.

930
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:01,799
Speaker 1: IT i don't.

931
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:05,480
Speaker 2: KNOW i have no idea if this was a. Murder

932
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:09,759
Speaker 2: If sam was, like holy, crap that was easier THAN i,

933
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:14,640
Speaker 2: Thought like twenty four hours she was it was. Suicide

934
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:17,520
Speaker 2: they don't, investigate AND i get to clean the, apartment

935
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:18,799
Speaker 2: and they even told me who to.

936
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 1: Call you, Know here's here's where WHEN i think AND

937
00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:26,600
Speaker 1: i try TO i try to visualize what. HAPPENED i

938
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:29,240
Speaker 1: try to visualize it as a. Murder first of, all

939
00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:32,719
Speaker 1: if he did murder, her it wasn't a planned. Murder,

940
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:34,440
Speaker 1: NO i mean he would have just broken up with.

941
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:38,359
Speaker 2: Her, no that's not. True WELL i was saying all

942
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:40,040
Speaker 2: people would break up instead of murdering their.

943
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:43,560
Speaker 1: Space, No i'm saying it wasn't. Planned it's not. PREMEDITATED i,

944
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:45,719
Speaker 1: mean this guy isn't like someone that's going TO i.

945
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:47,880
Speaker 2: Would have guessed that it just built, up maybe in

946
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:50,359
Speaker 2: a short period of, time and then it was an

947
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:51,399
Speaker 2: explosion and then.

948
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:54,719
Speaker 1: Bam, Right i'm saying he didn't plan. It if he

949
00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:58,239
Speaker 1: did murder, her it's because something happened in that. Apartment

950
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:01,759
Speaker 1: words were, exchanged it ramped. Up, really there was some

951
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:02,480
Speaker 1: heat of the.

952
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:04,200
Speaker 2: Moment i't know what you said about breaking.

953
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:09,600
Speaker 1: Up i'm, saying this guy is engaged to. Her he's

954
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:13,120
Speaker 1: not going to plan to murder. Her i'm, saying if

955
00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:15,400
Speaker 1: he doesn't want to be with her, anymore he would

956
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:17,439
Speaker 1: just break up with. Her he's not going to murder

957
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:20,239
Speaker 1: her to get out of the. Relationship lots That, No,

958
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:23,080
Speaker 1: no but they do that because they're. Married they don't

959
00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:24,759
Speaker 1: want to pay child, support and they don't want to

960
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 1: lose custody of their. Kids these, guys they don't have any.

961
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:28,000
Speaker 1: Connection these are that's.

962
00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:30,680
Speaker 2: All he doesn't have a history of any, crime, right, right.

963
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:32,600
Speaker 3: Or.

964
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:35,520
Speaker 1: Violence if we're going to make it that he murdered,

965
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:38,399
Speaker 1: her it has to be a heat of the. Moment something.

966
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:39,279
Speaker 2: HAPPENED i would agree with.

967
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:42,320
Speaker 1: That she came home from, work she's, spiraling maybe she's acting.

968
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 1: Crazy he's telling her to calm. Down something, happens and

969
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 1: he grabs a knife and attacks. Her my question, is,

970
00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 1: though when someone murders someone with a knife and the

971
00:46:54,160 --> 00:47:01,640
Speaker 1: heat of the, moment they don't leave superficial, wounds, RIGHT i,

972
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:04,480
Speaker 1: MEAN i would think that they're not just they're not

973
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:08,200
Speaker 1: just you, know testing and like doing little you, know

974
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:13,160
Speaker 1: like millimeter little wounds to the back of her. NECK i,

975
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:14,840
Speaker 1: mean if he is in the heat of the moment

976
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:20,160
Speaker 1: and he blitz attacks, her that he's going to plunge

977
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:21,560
Speaker 1: a knife into, her not mess.

978
00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:24,120
Speaker 2: Around R it's getting all the way, through.

979
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:26,120
Speaker 1: Right i'm just saying he's not going to be, like oh,

980
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:29,439
Speaker 1: here let me just do like some little tiny baby

981
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:32,080
Speaker 1: stab baby, stabs and then, oh Now i'm going to

982
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:34,360
Speaker 1: stab you for. Real LIKE i DON'T i don't picture that.

983
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:36,160
Speaker 1: HAPPENING i don't know.

984
00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:40,440
Speaker 2: Everything you say is true and, understandable and it just

985
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:43,520
Speaker 2: leaves more. QUESTIONS i, know all, RIGHT i need, answers not.

986
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:47,160
Speaker 1: Questions, okay let's go back to because this is also.

987
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:51,880
Speaker 1: Interesting and also it goes back to the computer. Searches

988
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:54,160
Speaker 1: like we talked about. Before they initially said that there

989
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:56,040
Speaker 1: wasn't any kind of anything that they found on the

990
00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:59,840
Speaker 1: computer with A i assume just with this police investigation

991
00:47:59,920 --> 00:48:03,880
Speaker 1: was a basic cursory review of her, devices, right probably.

992
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:06,360
Speaker 1: Best then the uncle comes in the apartment under the

993
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:09,320
Speaker 1: pretense of getting a, suit but he takes her laptop

994
00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:09,680
Speaker 1: and her.

995
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:11,279
Speaker 2: Phone did he take a.

996
00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:14,239
Speaker 1: SUIT i don't even know if he took a. SUIT

997
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:19,040
Speaker 1: i don't Know so then in twenty, nineteen the case

998
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:23,200
Speaker 1: gets reopened and The Pennsylvania Attorney general's office claimed that

999
00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:27,720
Speaker 1: there were web searches found on her computer for, quote

1000
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:33,440
Speaker 1: methods of committing, suicide quick, death and, depression that they

1001
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:36,799
Speaker 1: had been found On ellen's. Computer, now, again.

1002
00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:39,360
Speaker 2: Does he have access to a. Computer, well the uncle

1003
00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:42,279
Speaker 2: took the, COMPUTER i, know BUT i meant prior to the,

1004
00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:46,239
Speaker 2: death because he. Could you, Know i'm just, thinking like a,

1005
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:47,239
Speaker 2: CRIMINAL i could go in there and.

1006
00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:51,359
Speaker 1: Search so you're saying. Suicide, wait you're saying who the fiance.

1007
00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:54,320
Speaker 2: Like If sam used her computer to make those. Searches

1008
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:58,280
Speaker 2: i'm just trying to make sense of. This ring cases

1009
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:00,400
Speaker 2: that are cut and, Dry that's what we need to talk.

1010
00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:05,279
Speaker 1: About some sources indicate the searches occurred In december, eighteenth twenty,

1011
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 1: ten for suffocation and suicide, methods and On january, tenth twenty,

1012
00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:13,840
Speaker 1: eleven for quick. Death she also reportedly browsed the website

1013
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:14,640
Speaker 1: about painless.

1014
00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:17,000
Speaker 2: Suicide, well if you go off of, that then why

1015
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:17,600
Speaker 2: wouldn't it be a?

1016
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:22,239
Speaker 1: Suicide because they're saying it's, controversial they're saying that there's a,

1017
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:25,760
Speaker 1: dispute there is a fundamental dispute over the computer. Evidence

1018
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:29,000
Speaker 1: the use of this evidence to support the suicide ruling is.

1019
00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:32,879
Speaker 1: Controversial this is a computer evidence due to the chain

1020
00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:37,600
Speaker 1: of custody issues at conflicting, Reports you've got one side, saying,

1021
00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:43,680
Speaker 1: hey she said she was searching for suicide. Before and

1022
00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:45,239
Speaker 1: you know what it means a chain of. Custody the

1023
00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:47,600
Speaker 1: chain of custody is broken when the uncle comes and takes.

1024
00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:49,360
Speaker 1: It that's when the chain of.

1025
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:52,359
Speaker 2: Custody, yeah but why can they know when the searches were?

1026
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:56,080
Speaker 1: Made, well that's the problem is that apparently you can

1027
00:49:56,520 --> 00:49:58,800
Speaker 1: manipulate the searches as. Well.

1028
00:49:59,239 --> 00:50:03,279
Speaker 2: Well then then go back to WHAT i just, said

1029
00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:09,880
Speaker 2: he probably could have planted those searches for. Suicide, OKAY i.

1030
00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:12,600
Speaker 2: KNOW i suggest everyone that everyone that's having a breakdown

1031
00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:14,960
Speaker 2: of their relationship should probably look in their search. History

1032
00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:17,000
Speaker 2: like IF i look at my search issue right now

1033
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:19,719
Speaker 2: and it's like suicide and all this, Stuff i'm gonna

1034
00:50:19,719 --> 00:50:20,279
Speaker 2: know what you're up.

1035
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:23,360
Speaker 1: To, yes but, again that would be, premeditated AND i

1036
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:27,000
Speaker 1: SEE i would HAVE I coulner, Right i'm just saying

1037
00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:30,000
Speaker 1: twenty year olds that are engaged, there it's not pre.

1038
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:32,480
Speaker 2: MESSAGE i don't, know it's very. Confusing i'm more frustrating

1039
00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:34,840
Speaker 2: ending this podcast THAN i was starting.

1040
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:46,840
Speaker 1: It So march of twenty, eleven they changed the manner

1041
00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:50,320
Speaker 1: of death. Again the police department demanded a face to

1042
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:53,880
Speaker 1: face meeting About ellen's case with Doctor. Osborne remember he

1043
00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:57,400
Speaker 1: was the original medical examiner that rolled it a homicide

1044
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:01,000
Speaker 1: and his, colleagues which was also attended by a high

1045
00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:06,040
Speaker 1: ranking representative from The Philadelphia District attorney's. Office following the

1046
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:10,799
Speaker 1: meeting with, investigators Doctor osborne made an unprecedented decision to

1047
00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:15,120
Speaker 1: change his original. Ruling he reversed his earlier classification of

1048
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:18,319
Speaker 1: the death as a homicide and concluded That ellen's death

1049
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:21,920
Speaker 1: was actually a. Suicide Doctor osborne has stated that no

1050
00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:25,000
Speaker 1: notes were taken and there is no recording of this important.

1051
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:27,920
Speaker 1: Meeting so what happened is the police ruled a, suicide

1052
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:30,880
Speaker 1: the medical examiner does the autopsy and rules it a.

1053
00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:34,439
Speaker 1: Homicide now you've got conflicting, reports and you've got these

1054
00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:37,160
Speaker 1: parents that are pissed, off, Right so now the police

1055
00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:40,239
Speaker 1: department or the city has a. Problem so then there's a,

1056
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:44,799
Speaker 1: meeting and then after the, meeting the medical examiner, says oh,

1057
00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:47,799
Speaker 1: okay and he rules it a. Suicide there's not much

1058
00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:51,080
Speaker 1: conviction over, there and there's no notes taken and no

1059
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:53,440
Speaker 1: records of what happened in this. Meeting and when they

1060
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:56,440
Speaker 1: deposed everyone and asked them about what happened in the,

1061
00:51:56,480 --> 00:52:00,359
Speaker 1: meeting every single person, SAID i don't recall or or

1062
00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:05,800
Speaker 1: something like. That so In march of twenty, Eleven ellen's

1063
00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:11,320
Speaker 1: death certificate was quietly updated from homicide to. Suicide ellen's,

1064
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:14,720
Speaker 1: Parents josh And Sandra, greenberg were astounded by the sudden.

1065
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:17,520
Speaker 1: Change it made no sense to them That ellen would

1066
00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:20,919
Speaker 1: have inflicted twenty stab wounds to, herself.

1067
00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:22,319
Speaker 2: And some of the wounds were on the.

1068
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:25,560
Speaker 1: Back, right it's on the back of the, neck but

1069
00:52:25,640 --> 00:52:27,000
Speaker 1: it's up, high so again.

1070
00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:31,160
Speaker 2: Reachable it's, reachable so that's but why would you do

1071
00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:32,160
Speaker 2: that to the back of your?

1072
00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:34,719
Speaker 1: NECK i don't, know but you know, what it's, reachable

1073
00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:37,560
Speaker 1: but it's also there were also very there were a

1074
00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:40,200
Speaker 1: few that are again like those hesitation.

1075
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:43,200
Speaker 2: Type of and that there's no defensive wounds of any.

1076
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:45,560
Speaker 1: Kind, oh that is a good. Question no defensive, Wounds

1077
00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:48,560
Speaker 1: and that was another. Question that was another reason that

1078
00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:53,319
Speaker 1: initially the police ruled it a, suicide because, again you

1079
00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:56,319
Speaker 1: would think that if it was a blitz attack where

1080
00:52:56,360 --> 00:52:58,800
Speaker 1: they were just having some heated moment and he grabs

1081
00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:01,080
Speaker 1: a knife and he goes or hear that she would

1082
00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:04,120
Speaker 1: put her hands, up that she would fight, back that

1083
00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:07,200
Speaker 1: she would put her arms, up and there were no defensive.

1084
00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:10,040
Speaker 2: Retoun anything on. Him, right he didn't have anything on.

1085
00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:15,360
Speaker 1: Him, No, also there was only HER dna found on

1086
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:18,799
Speaker 1: the knife that they removed from her. Chest now again.

1087
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:21,800
Speaker 2: That doesn't mean he didn't do. It it just means he

1088
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:22,600
Speaker 2: didn't HAVE dna on.

1089
00:53:22,640 --> 00:53:25,200
Speaker 1: It there's just there's HIS dna wasn't found on. IT

1090
00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:27,839
Speaker 1: i don't. Know he could have wiped the knife or

1091
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:31,600
Speaker 1: he could have just not LEFT. Dna but, again.

1092
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:33,319
Speaker 2: All, right all this, said what do you think? It

1093
00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:34,200
Speaker 2: what do you think it?

1094
00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:39,080
Speaker 1: IS i don't. KNOW i, MEAN i don't. Know that's the.

1095
00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:41,640
Speaker 1: Question so was it a suicide or a. Homicide let's

1096
00:53:41,640 --> 00:53:44,000
Speaker 1: just go through some things that points to. Suicide it's

1097
00:53:44,040 --> 00:53:47,560
Speaker 1: shallow hesitation, stabs no defensive wounds on her, hands the

1098
00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:50,560
Speaker 1: door was, latched there's new snow on the, balcony no,

1099
00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:53,560
Speaker 1: footprints so that means that there's no other. Perpetrator no

1100
00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:56,440
Speaker 1: one else was in the. Apartment she's had mental health.

1101
00:53:56,440 --> 00:53:59,160
Speaker 1: Issues she was taking new. Medications she went to three

1102
00:53:59,239 --> 00:54:02,160
Speaker 1: visits with us, kiatrist and it was well known that

1103
00:54:02,280 --> 00:54:05,640
Speaker 1: her demeanor had changed and that her outlook on life had,

1104
00:54:05,719 --> 00:54:08,799
Speaker 1: changed and that she was pretty. Depressed she was spiraling

1105
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:11,800
Speaker 1: at school that. Day her colleague said that she was acting,

1106
00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:15,439
Speaker 1: abnormal that she was, spiraling she was having a hard,

1107
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:19,560
Speaker 1: time she was, happy she was leaving school. Early the

1108
00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:22,759
Speaker 1: door was locked from the. Inside this is based On

1109
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:27,239
Speaker 1: sam's statement and ALSO i guess the visual that they

1110
00:54:27,280 --> 00:54:29,799
Speaker 1: saw that the lock was, broken but AGAIN i don't,

1111
00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:34,320
Speaker 1: know could that be. Manipulated, yeah the apartment was. Undisturbed

1112
00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:36,839
Speaker 1: there's no signs of a, struggle so again you would

1113
00:54:36,840 --> 00:54:39,520
Speaker 1: think that if he attacked her that there would be

1114
00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:43,200
Speaker 1: things knocked, over something. Broken no defensive, wounds there's no

1115
00:54:43,239 --> 00:54:46,919
Speaker 1: defensive wind marks on. Him they found A google search

1116
00:54:46,960 --> 00:54:49,680
Speaker 1: on her computer for quick suicide and painless, suicide but

1117
00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:52,759
Speaker 1: again that's debatable because we don't know exactly when that.

1118
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:54,960
Speaker 1: Was because the chain of custody was broken when the

1119
00:54:55,040 --> 00:54:59,160
Speaker 1: uncle took the. Laptop the knife showed Only ELLEN'S. DNA

1120
00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:03,440
Speaker 1: sam state seen and was, cooperative And ellen's last digital

1121
00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:06,279
Speaker 1: footprint was activity on her computer at four forty, five

1122
00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:08,319
Speaker 1: which was the same time That sam left for THE

1123
00:55:08,360 --> 00:55:10,759
Speaker 1: gem and the neighbors did not hear any type of

1124
00:55:10,840 --> 00:55:15,800
Speaker 1: fight or. Disturbance so that's a. Lot, yeah that's pointing

1125
00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:19,319
Speaker 1: to a. Suicide evidence that points to a. Homicide there

1126
00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:22,480
Speaker 1: is a lack of hemorrhaging on the spinal column. Injuries

1127
00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:24,960
Speaker 1: this is interesting and this is complex Because i'm not

1128
00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:28,959
Speaker 1: a MEDICAL i don't know anything about any medical type

1129
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:31,600
Speaker 1: of terms or. Anything but there is there was a

1130
00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:35,200
Speaker 1: wound that was hit the spinal cord sheath in the

1131
00:55:35,239 --> 00:55:35,880
Speaker 1: back of her.

1132
00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:38,640
Speaker 2: Neck which means What which.

1133
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:42,040
Speaker 1: Means that one of the medical examiners was of the

1134
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:47,919
Speaker 1: opinion that because there was no hemorrhaging around that cut

1135
00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:51,600
Speaker 1: into the spinal, cord that that cut occurred after. Death

1136
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:54,480
Speaker 1: that's another that's another.

1137
00:55:54,520 --> 00:55:55,640
Speaker 2: That's another thing to confuse.

1138
00:55:55,680 --> 00:55:58,400
Speaker 1: It that's another confusing thing to look at that points

1139
00:55:58,440 --> 00:56:03,200
Speaker 1: towards a. Homicide Lindsay, emory a pathologist who's also certified in,

1140
00:56:03,280 --> 00:56:07,840
Speaker 1: neuropathology conducted one Of ellen's examinations and testified saying that

1141
00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:11,160
Speaker 1: a lack of hemorrhage means no, Pulse so that means

1142
00:56:11,160 --> 00:56:15,120
Speaker 1: that there's the possibility that that could have been struck after,

1143
00:56:15,400 --> 00:56:18,000
Speaker 1: death which obviously means it wasn't suicide because she can't

1144
00:56:18,719 --> 00:56:20,280
Speaker 1: stab herself if she's already.

1145
00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:23,800
Speaker 2: Deceased, no you, know it reminds me of That utah

1146
00:56:23,840 --> 00:56:26,319
Speaker 2: case where it was it wasn't a murder, suicide it

1147
00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:30,799
Speaker 2: was a suicide. Murder what is That this lady went

1148
00:56:30,800 --> 00:56:33,680
Speaker 2: to shoot herself there in a car and she pointed

1149
00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:35,440
Speaker 2: the gun in her. HEAD i don't mean to laugh

1150
00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:37,640
Speaker 2: at her, death, obviously but she points the gun at her,

1151
00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:41,520
Speaker 2: head shoots. Herself the bullet goes through her, head and

1152
00:56:41,560 --> 00:56:44,160
Speaker 2: then hit the, passenger her, husband and killed.

1153
00:56:44,239 --> 00:56:46,839
Speaker 1: Him, oh but she didn't mean to kill. Him, no

1154
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:49,879
Speaker 1: she didn't want to kill. Him, No and she died

1155
00:56:49,920 --> 00:56:50,120
Speaker 1: and he.

1156
00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:51,439
Speaker 2: Died she died.

1157
00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:55,319
Speaker 1: First, yeah so, suicide she killed. Him so suicide murder

1158
00:56:55,400 --> 00:56:57,840
Speaker 1: as opposed to murder. Suicide, Okay so what you're, saying.

1159
00:56:58,040 --> 00:57:01,560
Speaker 2: So strange things can, Happen strange things can be very.

1160
00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:05,399
Speaker 2: Rare in that, case there was evidence to prove the

1161
00:57:05,560 --> 00:57:09,800
Speaker 2: order of. Killing. Right in this, case it's just really,

1162
00:57:09,840 --> 00:57:12,399
Speaker 2: confusing And i'm probably more frustrating now that you brought

1163
00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:15,120
Speaker 2: up this case THAN i was, yesterday not knowing about.

1164
00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:17,800
Speaker 1: This, case all, right SO i made bowl of points

1165
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:20,080
Speaker 1: of just what led me to believe. Suicide now we're

1166
00:57:20,080 --> 00:57:25,320
Speaker 1: talking about homicide. Homicide so there's the pathologists who said

1167
00:57:25,400 --> 00:57:28,680
Speaker 1: that it could the spinal, cord the lack of lack of,

1168
00:57:28,720 --> 00:57:34,200
Speaker 1: hemorrhaging twenty knife. Wounds also there is String there was

1169
00:57:34,240 --> 00:57:37,960
Speaker 1: possibly strangulation marks on her. Neck Ellen greenberg's twenty eleven

1170
00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:41,840
Speaker 1: autopsy noted a bruising to her, neck which some forensic

1171
00:57:41,880 --> 00:57:45,800
Speaker 1: experts have interpreted as evidence of. Strangulation this has been

1172
00:57:45,800 --> 00:57:48,440
Speaker 1: a key factor in the long running controversy over whether

1173
00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:51,160
Speaker 1: her death was a homicide or. SUICIDE i don't, know,

1174
00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:54,880
Speaker 1: THOUGH i feel as if it was an actual strangulation

1175
00:57:55,480 --> 00:57:59,640
Speaker 1: first that there would be noticeable, marks also evidence of

1176
00:57:59,680 --> 00:58:02,760
Speaker 1: points to homicide or the bruises and varying stages of,

1177
00:58:02,800 --> 00:58:08,200
Speaker 1: healing which would suggest that he was violent or abusive with. Her,

1178
00:58:08,320 --> 00:58:12,280
Speaker 1: previously no one was With sam when he broke the door. Down,

1179
00:58:12,520 --> 00:58:15,520
Speaker 1: okay this is, interesting and this was a controversy that

1180
00:58:15,600 --> 00:58:22,480
Speaker 1: came up originally when the medical examiner first concluded or

1181
00:58:22,520 --> 00:58:26,280
Speaker 1: the police concluded that it was a. Suicide it's because

1182
00:58:26,920 --> 00:58:29,680
Speaker 1: they were under the assumption that When sam came back

1183
00:58:29,680 --> 00:58:32,600
Speaker 1: to the apartment and busted the door down and broke

1184
00:58:32,680 --> 00:58:36,520
Speaker 1: the latch from the, inside that the security guard was with.

1185
00:58:36,680 --> 00:58:39,480
Speaker 1: HIM i don't know where that story came, from but

1186
00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:42,200
Speaker 1: they were under that, assumption and the medical examiner was

1187
00:58:42,280 --> 00:58:45,560
Speaker 1: under that. Assumption so when he ruled it a, suicide

1188
00:58:47,080 --> 00:58:52,320
Speaker 1: he considered that there was. Right so then he the medical,

1189
00:58:52,360 --> 00:58:56,440
Speaker 1: examiner then learns later that that wasn't. True that the

1190
00:58:56,560 --> 00:58:59,880
Speaker 1: security guard or the, doorman whatever you want to call, him,

1191
00:59:00,080 --> 00:59:03,360
Speaker 1: ever actually left his. Post so When sam broke the door,

1192
00:59:03,360 --> 00:59:06,040
Speaker 1: down he was. Alone there was no witness as.

1193
00:59:05,880 --> 00:59:09,400
Speaker 2: To that's, odd that it's, odd but a medical examiner

1194
00:59:09,400 --> 00:59:12,200
Speaker 2: taking in like evidence like, That LIKE i when his

1195
00:59:12,320 --> 00:59:15,520
Speaker 2: testimony and, STUFF i know WHAT i, thought you're a medical,

1196
00:59:15,840 --> 00:59:18,400
Speaker 2: EXAMINER i think look at them, MEDICALLY i.

1197
00:59:18,440 --> 00:59:19,720
Speaker 1: Know but you know WHAT i took away from, that

1198
00:59:19,760 --> 00:59:22,120
Speaker 1: it was the totality of the. Circumstances it was it

1199
00:59:22,200 --> 00:59:24,680
Speaker 1: was all these things that he found during the. Autopsy

1200
00:59:24,720 --> 00:59:28,640
Speaker 1: but then also also thinking the door was latched from the,

1201
00:59:28,680 --> 00:59:32,480
Speaker 1: inside that the police already ruled it a you, know a,

1202
00:59:32,560 --> 00:59:36,400
Speaker 1: suicide that he thought That sam was accompanied by the door,

1203
00:59:36,480 --> 00:59:37,640
Speaker 1: man and that the last.

1204
00:59:37,680 --> 00:59:39,200
Speaker 2: Was you AND i could do all. THAT i thought

1205
00:59:39,200 --> 00:59:42,360
Speaker 2: this guy's supposed to have training to look and learn

1206
00:59:42,440 --> 00:59:47,120
Speaker 2: about wounds and stab wounds and you, know hemagering and

1207
00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:47,480
Speaker 2: all that.

1208
00:59:47,520 --> 00:59:51,280
Speaker 1: Stuff, also the strange nine one one call kind of

1209
00:59:51,360 --> 00:59:54,080
Speaker 1: leads to the thought that it could possibly be. Homicide

1210
00:59:54,120 --> 00:59:56,280
Speaker 1: the fact that he doesn't notice the knife in her

1211
00:59:56,320 --> 00:59:59,040
Speaker 1: heart when he first comes into when he calls nine one,

1212
00:59:59,080 --> 01:00:01,120
Speaker 1: one he doesn't mention it until like halfway through the.

1213
01:00:01,080 --> 01:00:03,400
Speaker 2: Call reluctant to DO.

1214
01:00:03,560 --> 01:00:07,520
Speaker 1: Cpr it just doesn't sound like he doesn't sound like a.

1215
01:00:07,520 --> 01:00:12,320
Speaker 2: Grieving the clean rag in her hands kind of seems to,

1216
01:00:12,400 --> 01:00:13,000
Speaker 2: random you.

1217
01:00:13,040 --> 01:00:17,440
Speaker 1: Know, also someone, SAID i don't know that when people

1218
01:00:18,160 --> 01:00:21,720
Speaker 1: when someone commits suicide and it is a stabbing, suicide

1219
01:00:22,280 --> 01:00:25,440
Speaker 1: that normally they lift their shirt, up of their clothing.

1220
01:00:25,520 --> 01:00:30,720
Speaker 1: Up her stab was through her. Sweater that's. Interesting, yeah

1221
01:00:30,840 --> 01:00:31,680
Speaker 1: so that's something.

1222
01:00:31,720 --> 01:00:36,760
Speaker 2: Else but then is there a normal routine for suicide by?

1223
01:00:36,800 --> 01:00:37,800
Speaker 2: Stabbing there's.

1224
01:00:37,880 --> 01:00:39,920
Speaker 1: Not all you can do is look back at you

1225
01:00:40,320 --> 01:00:43,040
Speaker 1: and you, know it reminds me of Even Amanda knox's,

1226
01:00:43,040 --> 01:00:45,400
Speaker 1: case where the prosecutor was so hell bent on the

1227
01:00:45,440 --> 01:00:47,480
Speaker 1: fact that the body was covered that it must have

1228
01:00:47,520 --> 01:00:48,320
Speaker 1: been a, woman.

1229
01:00:48,680 --> 01:00:50,880
Speaker 2: Because you, know, women women do.

1230
01:00:50,920 --> 01:00:55,000
Speaker 1: That men cover the. Body so, again it's not a proven,

1231
01:00:55,280 --> 01:00:58,320
Speaker 1: science BUT i think it's just something, something it's something

1232
01:00:58,320 --> 01:01:01,360
Speaker 1: to think about. That AND i don't, Know i'm trying

1233
01:01:01,360 --> 01:01:03,760
Speaker 1: to picture myself like trying to stab. MYSELF i don't.

1234
01:01:03,760 --> 01:01:06,479
Speaker 1: Know MAYBE i probably would lift my shirt. UP i don't,

1235
01:01:06,520 --> 01:01:09,280
Speaker 1: KNOW i don't. KNOW i don't. KNOW i don't.

1236
01:01:09,320 --> 01:01:11,480
Speaker 2: KNOW i know you wouldn't lift my shirt. Up, no

1237
01:01:13,440 --> 01:01:15,520
Speaker 2: you would go right through my favorite shirt if he had.

1238
01:01:15,520 --> 01:01:19,000
Speaker 1: To and then also again when we're talking about, homicide

1239
01:01:19,240 --> 01:01:22,200
Speaker 1: the possibility of a post mortem cut into the spinal,

1240
01:01:22,240 --> 01:01:24,720
Speaker 1: cord which would have occurred after death because there was no.

1241
01:01:24,840 --> 01:01:27,920
Speaker 1: HEMORRHAGING a security guard said he had not been there

1242
01:01:27,920 --> 01:01:30,720
Speaker 1: when the fiance forced opened the, door and despite two

1243
01:01:30,800 --> 01:01:33,240
Speaker 1: relatives claims that they'd been on the phone With goldberg

1244
01:01:33,280 --> 01:01:36,200
Speaker 1: when he forced opened the, door AS cnn analysis of

1245
01:01:36,280 --> 01:01:40,120
Speaker 1: phone records and other evidence seemed to contradict that. Claim

1246
01:01:40,200 --> 01:01:43,120
Speaker 1: SO i guess there were relatives that claim to have

1247
01:01:43,200 --> 01:01:45,760
Speaker 1: been on the phone with him when he broke the door,

1248
01:01:45,840 --> 01:01:49,400
Speaker 1: down and then forensically it seemed that that Didn't that.

1249
01:01:49,520 --> 01:01:52,040
Speaker 2: Doesn't mean anything to me even if they, were because

1250
01:01:52,400 --> 01:01:54,240
Speaker 2: if he's gonna fake. It he could fake that, too

1251
01:01:54,760 --> 01:01:56,919
Speaker 2: but you know. That so the wounds on the back

1252
01:01:56,920 --> 01:01:58,840
Speaker 2: of the neck were the ones that were not.

1253
01:01:58,960 --> 01:02:03,320
Speaker 1: Heymatry, no, well just there's several wounds on the, back

1254
01:02:03,480 --> 01:02:05,200
Speaker 1: but it was the back of the. Neck, yeah but

1255
01:02:05,240 --> 01:02:08,560
Speaker 1: there was one that was close to the spinal, cord

1256
01:02:08,600 --> 01:02:09,720
Speaker 1: and that's the one that wasn't.

1257
01:02:09,720 --> 01:02:13,760
Speaker 3: Hemorrhaging hear me, Out, okay when someone, dies, yeah is

1258
01:02:13,760 --> 01:02:18,200
Speaker 3: it like as soon as their heart stops, beating that's

1259
01:02:18,240 --> 01:02:22,160
Speaker 3: the moment they won't hemorrhage or is There because it's

1260
01:02:22,200 --> 01:02:22,440
Speaker 3: on the.

1261
01:02:22,440 --> 01:02:24,840
Speaker 2: It's on the back of the neck and she's leaned

1262
01:02:24,880 --> 01:02:29,760
Speaker 2: up against the, CABINET i would think she. DIED i

1263
01:02:29,760 --> 01:02:32,840
Speaker 2: mean the position that she's. In that means someone she

1264
01:02:32,920 --> 01:02:36,000
Speaker 2: asks to die in that position and then get, stabbed

1265
01:02:36,440 --> 01:02:38,320
Speaker 2: like they move her head away from the, walls stab

1266
01:02:38,360 --> 01:02:38,880
Speaker 2: and then put it.

1267
01:02:38,920 --> 01:02:39,439
Speaker 1: BACK i don't.

1268
01:02:39,440 --> 01:02:40,440
Speaker 2: Know it just seems a little out of.

1269
01:02:40,560 --> 01:02:42,640
Speaker 1: Order, OH i see what you're. Saying you're saying because

1270
01:02:42,680 --> 01:02:46,160
Speaker 1: it was a. If if we're if we're taking it

1271
01:02:46,200 --> 01:02:49,440
Speaker 1: as a post mortem, stab, right then she's already on

1272
01:02:49,480 --> 01:02:51,360
Speaker 1: the ground and she's already slumped over.

1273
01:02:51,480 --> 01:02:53,760
Speaker 2: And, yeah and you're sitting the back of her neck's probably,

1274
01:02:53,840 --> 01:02:57,440
Speaker 2: covered or she's up against the, wall or it's not easily. Accessible,

1275
01:02:57,640 --> 01:03:01,840
Speaker 2: YEAH i don't. Know just more, question no. Answers So ellen's.

1276
01:03:01,560 --> 01:03:04,880
Speaker 1: Parents continued to fight against the suicide ruling to this very.

1277
01:03:05,000 --> 01:03:08,600
Speaker 1: Day So ellen's, Parents josh And, sandy filed two civil,

1278
01:03:08,680 --> 01:03:12,600
Speaker 1: lawsuits one in twenty nineteen against The Philadelphia Medical Examiner's

1279
01:03:12,600 --> 01:03:16,160
Speaker 1: office and Doctor osborne to change the ruling on their

1280
01:03:16,200 --> 01:03:19,880
Speaker 1: daughter's death, certificate and then another suit in twenty twenty

1281
01:03:19,960 --> 01:03:24,480
Speaker 1: two against The city Of, philadelphia Former Chief Medical Examiner Sam,

1282
01:03:24,520 --> 01:03:28,560
Speaker 1: gulino and others, involved alleging that the investigation was mishandled

1283
01:03:28,880 --> 01:03:31,920
Speaker 1: and covered up by the city. Officials In february of

1284
01:03:31,960 --> 01:03:35,400
Speaker 1: twenty twenty, five The greenberg celebrated a major legal victory

1285
01:03:35,400 --> 01:03:38,640
Speaker 1: when the city settled both suits and The Medical examiner's

1286
01:03:38,680 --> 01:03:42,400
Speaker 1: office agreed to reopen its investigation Into greenberg's cause of.

1287
01:03:42,440 --> 01:03:46,040
Speaker 1: Death the ruling came shortly after Doctor osborne signed an

1288
01:03:46,040 --> 01:03:50,840
Speaker 1: affidavit stating That ellen's death should be classified as something

1289
01:03:51,000 --> 01:03:55,880
Speaker 1: other than. Suicide according TO Nbc, philadelphia he reportedly made

1290
01:03:55,880 --> 01:03:58,360
Speaker 1: the decision after reviewing new information in the case and

1291
01:03:58,400 --> 01:04:02,840
Speaker 1: consulting with a pediatric. Pathologist the settlement also included an

1292
01:04:02,920 --> 01:04:07,160
Speaker 1: undisclosed amount of. Money The greenbergs went back to court

1293
01:04:07,200 --> 01:04:09,760
Speaker 1: In september of twenty twenty. Five the case returned to

1294
01:04:09,760 --> 01:04:12,160
Speaker 1: court last month as attorneys for her family press for

1295
01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:14,760
Speaker 1: answers about delays and the independent autopsy.

1296
01:04:14,840 --> 01:04:16,360
Speaker 2: Review so that was part.

1297
01:04:16,240 --> 01:04:18,120
Speaker 1: Of the, settlement was that someone else was going to

1298
01:04:18,120 --> 01:04:22,120
Speaker 1: do an independent. Autopsy despite the settlement earlier this, year

1299
01:04:22,200 --> 01:04:25,120
Speaker 1: The greenberg's claim they have received no updates or news

1300
01:04:25,160 --> 01:04:28,520
Speaker 1: Regardings ellen's. Case the next hearing on the matter is

1301
01:04:28,560 --> 01:04:32,840
Speaker 1: scheduled For october, fourteenth which is this month next. Week,

1302
01:04:32,920 --> 01:04:36,520
Speaker 1: yeah and they're supposed to have this independent autopsy done

1303
01:04:36,680 --> 01:04:41,200
Speaker 1: prior To october. Fourteenth so we will continue to follow this.

1304
01:04:41,320 --> 01:04:44,280
Speaker 2: Case if we solved another, crime we.

1305
01:04:43,880 --> 01:04:46,200
Speaker 1: Will follow this case and see what happens and see

1306
01:04:46,240 --> 01:04:48,960
Speaker 1: if this. Crime this is one of those crimes, where

1307
01:04:49,360 --> 01:04:53,360
Speaker 1: even like you said, earlier even if they it's ruled

1308
01:04:53,480 --> 01:04:57,200
Speaker 1: a homicide and they're going to go back and, reinvestigate.

1309
01:04:56,440 --> 01:04:57,760
Speaker 2: Now there's just enough evidence to be.

1310
01:04:57,800 --> 01:05:02,720
Speaker 1: Confused it's enough evidence on both s to confuse. You it's,

1311
01:05:02,800 --> 01:05:07,400
Speaker 1: RIGHT i don't, KNOW i lean towards. Suicide you know what,

1312
01:05:07,440 --> 01:05:11,360
Speaker 1: THOUGH i was thinking about this, Guy. Sam, Yeah so

1313
01:05:11,480 --> 01:05:13,760
Speaker 1: first they rule it a suicide and he's probably, like,

1314
01:05:13,960 --> 01:05:18,160
Speaker 1: yes then at the, funeral if you did it, right

1315
01:05:19,000 --> 01:05:22,520
Speaker 1: then at the funeral is when the media outlets report

1316
01:05:22,600 --> 01:05:24,720
Speaker 1: that it's been changed to a homicide or not changed

1317
01:05:24,720 --> 01:05:26,800
Speaker 1: with the medical examiner said it was a. Homicide so

1318
01:05:26,840 --> 01:05:30,000
Speaker 1: that guy's probably like pissing his pants right if he did, It,

1319
01:05:30,920 --> 01:05:32,600
Speaker 1: no it doesn't matter if he did it or not

1320
01:05:32,640 --> 01:05:35,640
Speaker 1: they ruled. It if they rule it a, homicide it's it's.

1321
01:05:35,720 --> 01:05:38,520
Speaker 1: HIM i, mean he's the only perpetrator they're going to come.

1322
01:05:38,560 --> 01:05:41,840
Speaker 1: After then they change it back to a, suicide so

1323
01:05:41,880 --> 01:05:44,240
Speaker 1: he's probably, Like, Okay i'm in the clear. Again and

1324
01:05:44,280 --> 01:05:47,160
Speaker 1: now they're they're you, know ruling on whether they're going

1325
01:05:47,200 --> 01:05:49,760
Speaker 1: to investigate it again or. NOT i, mean this guy

1326
01:05:49,840 --> 01:05:54,280
Speaker 1: probably wakes up every day and as he's.

1327
01:05:53,440 --> 01:05:57,760
Speaker 2: Just a person of interest today or victim, today which is?

1328
01:05:57,760 --> 01:06:01,400
Speaker 1: It and if he was the, perpetrator than. GOOD i,

1329
01:06:01,440 --> 01:06:04,960
Speaker 1: mean he should be living in a state of perpetual

1330
01:06:05,120 --> 01:06:07,640
Speaker 1: fear and. Hell but if he didn't do, it that

1331
01:06:07,800 --> 01:06:10,240
Speaker 1: is a crappy way to live, life not knowing whether

1332
01:06:10,280 --> 01:06:13,720
Speaker 1: they're going to come after. You or. Not so at

1333
01:06:13,720 --> 01:06:15,280
Speaker 1: the end of the, day we don't know what's going to.

1334
01:06:15,320 --> 01:06:17,600
Speaker 1: Happen we'll see what happens on this court date In october.

1335
01:06:17,640 --> 01:06:20,360
Speaker 1: Fourteenth and, again thank you so much guys for listening

1336
01:06:20,360 --> 01:06:21,880
Speaker 1: To lee La. Brunette we appreciate.

1337
01:06:21,960 --> 01:06:22,800
Speaker 2: You follow