1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:02,840 Speaker 1: This is Kelly Henderson and you are listening to the 2 00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:05,760 Speaker 1: Velvet Edge podcast if you follow me on Instagram at 3 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:08,560 Speaker 1: Velvet's Edge. One of my latest post asked for topic 4 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: ideas to help learn and educate more about the racial 5 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 1: injustice conversation that's happening in our country right now. Uh. 6 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:17,960 Speaker 1: If you have any thoughts, please comment on that picture 7 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:20,079 Speaker 1: or d m me with your ideas. I would love 8 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:24,919 Speaker 1: to continue those conversations on this podcast. Today's podcast was 9 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 1: recorded a few weeks ago with Dr Gregory Parks, who 10 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 1: is a professor of law at wake Forest University. He 11 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: also has a PhD in clinical psychology, so his research 12 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 1: focuses on both race and law issues as well as 13 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:40,640 Speaker 1: social science. I found him through an article I read 14 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:43,879 Speaker 1: in the Huffington's Post about the psychology of haters, and 15 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 1: I want to be very careful with what I say 16 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:49,280 Speaker 1: here because I don't want anything to be misinterpreted. This 17 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:52,280 Speaker 1: podcast was recorded because of a topic that has become 18 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 1: more and more fascinating to me, why do haters hate? 19 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 1: My interest has been piqued because of observey to the 20 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 1: growing number of trolls or the trolling culture that I 21 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: see on social media. It's just a culture I simply 22 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 1: do not understand. However, this topic could also be applied 23 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:15,119 Speaker 1: to many things, including race, including your coworker who seems 24 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: to have a problem with you for no reason or 25 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:20,480 Speaker 1: reasons you don't understand, or even political arguments. Are the 26 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:24,760 Speaker 1: arguments about coronavirus and its severity. The overwhelming answer that 27 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: I continue to find is typically that if you are 28 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:31,399 Speaker 1: the object of a hater's hate, it very rarely actually 29 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 1: has anything to do with you. But if you're like 30 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:36,960 Speaker 1: me and you are a curious person, you need to 31 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:39,959 Speaker 1: understand the reasoning behind it in order to let it go. 32 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 1: So Dr Parks and I dissect all of the mental bias, reasoning, 33 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:47,120 Speaker 1: and how to move past the hate and just keep 34 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 1: doing you. Here's our conversation. Okay, so let's just start 35 00:01:52,760 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 1: with the basics. Why do haters hate that different reasons? 36 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 1: I think the typical convention is that they hate because 37 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:13,400 Speaker 1: they're envious or jealous, meaning that they think that someone 38 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:18,119 Speaker 1: else has something of theirs that they deserve and that's 39 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:21,640 Speaker 1: the other person doesn't deserve. Or they think that someone 40 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 1: has taken something from that which is jealous, And usually 41 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:29,640 Speaker 1: it's in the context of a relationship. But I think 42 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:35,519 Speaker 1: that there are broader reasons why, UM, why haters hate UM. 43 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 1: Some people are dispositional haters. We call those curmudgeons. They 44 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:47,080 Speaker 1: just you know, they hate not everybody. Some people aren't envious, 45 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 1: they're jealous of other people. UM, they just don't want 46 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 1: those people to have what they have, especially if the 47 00:02:54,960 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: hated on person has something of value or status. Uh. 48 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 1: Sometimes people hate on others because of group based animus, 49 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 1: because you're African American, which the Jewish. Some people hate 50 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 1: because they feel as though a person UM is in 51 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 1: a role that's not consistent with the role that the 52 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 1: hater thinks they should be in. So a typical example 53 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:24,640 Speaker 1: of this might be a woman in a high status 54 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 1: job physician or attorney or judge, or in politics. UM. 55 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 1: Sometimes a hater is motivated by UM the fact that 56 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 1: they embraced the status quo, and the hated person is 57 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 1: pushing people or the hater to think about the situation 58 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 1: a fundamentally different way, which becomes very comfortable with them. 59 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 1: And then the last thing I tend to think about 60 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 1: there could be many other reasons is that the hater 61 00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 1: sees the hated hated person as a know it all 62 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 1: as thinking that they're better than um the hater or 63 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 1: other people UM, and that would breathe a certain level 64 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:15,119 Speaker 1: of uh dislike or resentment. UM. The last one is 65 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:17,479 Speaker 1: is intriguing. I was writing about this the other day 66 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 1: because sometimes the hate is warranted. So honestly, it's not hate. 67 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:25,039 Speaker 1: It's fatigue if the person doesn't really know what they're 68 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 1: talking about, if they're not uh sophisticated in their understanding 69 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:33,000 Speaker 1: of the era. But sometimes we hate on people who 70 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:37,359 Speaker 1: actually do have a deep knowledge and skill set in 71 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:40,919 Speaker 1: an area. We call them experts UM. But increasingly in 72 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 1: society we see experts being resented. So I think those 73 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 1: are some of the well springs from which um hating 74 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 1: flows UM, though there could be others. Okay, Well, So 75 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 1: when I mentioned when I first reached out to you, 76 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 1: I mentioned to you that I found you through this 77 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:01,039 Speaker 1: article that you wrote for having to post about the 78 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:04,239 Speaker 1: psychology of haters. And when I'm listening to you talk 79 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 1: about just why haters hate even UM, it's so interesting 80 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 1: to me because in all of those definitions that you 81 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 1: just gave, typically it sounds like that hate has more 82 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:19,040 Speaker 1: to do with the hater than the subject being hated upon. 83 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 1: Would you say that's true? Yes, the hated upon individual 84 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:31,480 Speaker 1: or entity could be uh, a non living entity is 85 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 1: a trigger for some reason, for some reason. Right, So interesting, 86 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 1: So what what would an easy definition of a hater 87 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 1: b I know you mentioned a couple different resources, the 88 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 1: Oxford Dictionary, Urban Dictionary, UM, and then there was another 89 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 1: article written by Michael Strange Love that describes a hater, 90 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 1: but they all give a specific definition. Do you have 91 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 1: one that you go by? My definition is that a 92 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 1: hater is someone who engages in an irrationally high level 93 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 1: of dislike of some other person or some other thing. 94 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 1: Usually that prompts the haters engage in some kind of 95 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:18,599 Speaker 1: bizarre behavior. Maybe that may never get to the hated 96 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:23,479 Speaker 1: individual or entity, but nonetheless they engage in some kind 97 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 1: of bizarre behavior. Now, I think the common definitions are 98 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 1: a hater is someone who's envious, and I think that's right. 99 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:36,119 Speaker 1: Like I said before, but I think it pays short 100 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 1: shrift to what a hater is because I think that 101 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: there are many other factors that that prompt or trigger 102 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:47,400 Speaker 1: hating it. There's an interesting article a few years ago, 103 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 1: but to the hater is really nothing more than a critic, 104 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 1: which is someone motivated by a certain set of objective 105 00:06:56,279 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 1: facts that leads them to negatively evaluate another person and 106 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 1: arguably another thing. I think that that is a good 107 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 1: definition of a critic. The hater, I think, is different 108 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 1: because they're not motivated by facts. They're motivated by their emotions, 109 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 1: their feelings, and as a consequence, that leads them to 110 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 1: not be able to evaluate facts around the person or 111 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:28,119 Speaker 1: thing that they hate or hate on in any objective way. 112 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 1: And so that the added layer to a hater is 113 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 1: that they're emotionally driven and often their judgment decision making 114 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:41,240 Speaker 1: is subconscious that they may not even be aware of 115 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: or may right normally, they're not aware of the fact 116 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 1: that their evaluation of the hated person or thing isn't 117 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 1: even rational, which makes it difficult in the end, right 118 00:07:56,160 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 1: because if they think they're rational, but objectively they're not one, 119 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 1: it's going to be very difficult for them to desist 120 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 1: or pull back from hating. Um, it's going to be 121 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 1: difficult for them to engage in a rational way with 122 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 1: the hated person or a thing, which means the behavior, 123 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 1: as I said before, it could be quite bizarre. But 124 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 1: also it means that as the saying those haters is 125 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 1: gonna hate means they're less likely to pull back from 126 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 1: the level of critique or hostility that they're engaged in. Yeah, honestly, 127 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 1: I think one of the most interesting things I read 128 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 1: in your article was that once a person decides who 129 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 1: are what they're going to hate on just kind of 130 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 1: what you're explaining right now, it's almost impossible to change 131 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 1: their minds, right, So, like, even if you are presenting 132 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:51,960 Speaker 1: them with overwhelming factual information, they may already be so 133 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 1: set in their decision to hate that they cannot see 134 00:08:56,400 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 1: it as fact. Well, yeah, I agree with that. So 135 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 1: one of the layers of being a hater is what 136 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 1: you know, social scientists call motivated reasoning, And you see 137 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 1: this a lot of politics, and it's where a person 138 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:17,680 Speaker 1: is emotionally motivated to believe something and they are so 139 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 1: driven to believe this thing that they look for facts 140 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 1: that confirm what they believe, support what they believe, and 141 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:33,440 Speaker 1: they ignore or minimize facts that would undermine what they believe. 142 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 1: And given this drive to believe a thing, it means 143 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:42,080 Speaker 1: that you know, keep going back to the phrase fader 144 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 1: is gonna hate, it means it makes it less likely 145 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 1: that they on their own can pull back, and it 146 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 1: also makes it less likely that others who will trying 147 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 1: to deter them from hating will be successful in that endeavor. Right, 148 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 1: So even if you try to argue them, and we'll 149 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 1: talk about this in a minute, but even if you 150 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 1: try to argue them, they are so set in their 151 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 1: ways typically that they are not gonna want to see 152 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 1: that part that part of the argument. And what can 153 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 1: you explain a little bit about like confirmation bias. Let's 154 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 1: talk through a lot of the different bias that come 155 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 1: with this, because you talk about this in your article, 156 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 1: but this is the psychological aspect that happens, and it's 157 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 1: there's different kinds of bias that happened in hater's brains, 158 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 1: and they restrict us from allowing in evidence that goes 159 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:33,240 Speaker 1: against our thought process or in this instance hate specifically. 160 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:37,839 Speaker 1: So can you explain confirmation bias? Yeah, A confirmation bias 161 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:43,839 Speaker 1: is a pognitive bias where there's a tendency to search for, interpret, 162 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:48,560 Speaker 1: or focus on and remember information in a way that 163 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 1: confirms an individual's preconception. So if i believe that Alas 164 00:10:57,040 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 1: is a horrible coworker, and I'm hating on Alice. But objectively, 165 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:07,679 Speaker 1: Alice comes in every day at seven am, when we 166 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 1: only have to be in at nine am. She gets 167 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 1: in early to get ahead of the game. She's a 168 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:15,440 Speaker 1: great would me and she's a great team player because 169 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:17,679 Speaker 1: she's trying to get things set up for the team. 170 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 1: And she does this day in and day out, and 171 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 1: then one day Alice comes in at nine I'm more 172 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 1: likely to recognize that Alice came in late one day 173 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:32,080 Speaker 1: than I am to recognize that Alice came in early 174 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 1: the past six months, mainly because it confirms what I 175 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 1: already believe about Alice. But the thing is, I'm not 176 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:46,679 Speaker 1: consciously trying to look for that information. Remember it's subconscious. 177 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:51,319 Speaker 1: My mind automatically goes to the fact that Alice was late, 178 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:54,720 Speaker 1: and it does not pay attention to the fact that 179 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 1: Alice has been consistently early for many months before. So 180 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:02,560 Speaker 1: that's an example confirmation biass. So you're only paying attention 181 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:07,079 Speaker 1: to the facts that prove your point, not everything else happening. Exactly. 182 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:14,320 Speaker 1: What about attentional bias? Attentional bias is um is similar 183 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:18,319 Speaker 1: to confirmation bias, and that's when you simply pay attention 184 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:23,960 Speaker 1: to information. Uh More selectively than you pay attention to 185 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:27,559 Speaker 1: other information. Where it works in hatings is similar. I've 186 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:32,079 Speaker 1: used the same analogy that you're you're more attentive to 187 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:34,959 Speaker 1: the fact that Alice has shown up late once that 188 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:39,200 Speaker 1: than you are to the fact that she um was 189 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:43,959 Speaker 1: consistently early many months before. There's something a little more 190 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 1: insidious about UM confirmation biased and attentional bias, but they 191 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 1: may play out the same way. Okay, UM, And sort 192 00:12:52,520 --> 00:13:02,080 Speaker 1: of similarly also would be selective perception. Can you explain this, um? Yeah, 193 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 1: So selective perception and similar to attentional bias, UM, you 194 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 1: selectively perceive certain types of information and selectively don't perceive 195 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 1: other types of information. So it's the same way you 196 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:21,359 Speaker 1: think about attentional bias, you can think of selective perception. 197 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 1: So I actually think that focusing effect is another really 198 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 1: interesting one. It's where you you put undo weight on 199 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 1: certain aspects of events, especially the ones that cast the 200 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 1: negative light on the hated object. So it's a similar idea, 201 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 1: but instead of like you're saying, instead of focusing on 202 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:42,680 Speaker 1: the seven am, you're gonna put so much weight on 203 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 1: the one time that she came in at nine fifteen, Right, 204 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 1: exactly exactly, so they're all very similar. So the important 205 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 1: thing is that and I don't mean to cut you off, 206 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:59,199 Speaker 1: remember that it's not conscious right that that I want 207 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:03,280 Speaker 1: to look for the information. It's that your mind automatically, 208 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:09,320 Speaker 1: uh goes to us. So you know, there's some there's 209 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 1: a theory that the mind, and it's been proven in 210 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 1: many studies that the mind operates on two systems of 211 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:24,120 Speaker 1: cognitive judgment. System one is automatic subconscious UM highly error prone, 212 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 1: and system two is conscious, deliberative and makes far less errors. 213 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 1: Most of our judgment decision making throughout the day is 214 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 1: by system one. If we had to constantly deliberate and 215 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 1: take time to think through everything we do, whether it 216 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 1: be how we drive to work every day, or getting up, 217 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 1: going to the coffee the maker in the morning and 218 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 1: preparing your coffee, it would be we wouldn't get a 219 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 1: lot done. Um. Quite often we're on autopilot. The problem is, 220 00:14:57,000 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: if most of our judgment decision making is by system 221 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 1: one UM, then how do we explain the sense scenarios 222 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 1: in which we make big errors in our judgment decision making? 223 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 1: And quite often what happens is we make decisions by 224 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 1: system one UM and we make errors. Uh, but then 225 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 1: we use systems to to explain it away. So take 226 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 1: it out of the context of the hater and put 227 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 1: it back in the employment context where an employer says, 228 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 1: where we believe in diversity, here where egalitarians around race 229 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 1: and gender and sexual orientation. And they say, what, we're 230 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 1: going to promote individuals and managerial positions who have consistently 231 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 1: shown up to work, who've been great team players, who've 232 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: gone on the extra mile, um. But they've only promoted men. 233 00:15:55,680 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 1: And then, of course, in the question Canada should be 234 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 1: raise why are you only promoting men? The employer is 235 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 1: not gonna automatically refer to the narrative about discrimination um, 236 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:13,760 Speaker 1: in part because their legal sanctions, but pror no reason 237 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 1: why they're probably not going to is they didn't perceive 238 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 1: that they were engaged in discrimination. So they're gonna use 239 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 1: system to to explain why they did what they did. 240 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 1: And when you explain what you did from a system 241 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 1: to perspective, you can only explain what you know about 242 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 1: yourself consciously. Um. And that's not gonna be that you 243 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 1: you discriminate in the employment setting. If you look at haters, 244 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 1: a hater for the most part. Isn't gonna say, you 245 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 1: know what I did X, Y and Z because I 246 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 1: just don't like this person. No, they're gonna say, I'm 247 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 1: a rational individual, I'm logical, I'm thoughtful, and I did X, 248 00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 1: Y and Z to such a person for these what 249 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 1: I perceived as rash more reasons. Now onlookers, i'd say, 250 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 1: could look at that if they're paying close attention and say, 251 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 1: but your argument doesn't add up um. And it doesn't 252 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 1: add up because one um haters are driven by subconscious um, wishes, judgments, desires, 253 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 1: thinking um and that they're not aware of. And too, 254 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 1: they can't explain the world from the perspective of those 255 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 1: unconscious or subconscious fraud, desires, wishes, and feelings. So is 256 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:39,000 Speaker 1: it almost like it would just take too much effort 257 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 1: to think about it consciously? Like you say in the article, 258 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 1: these processes have nothing to do with how well educated 259 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 1: or intelligent the hater is or not. So it's not 260 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 1: like these people are just dumb. It's that whatever the 261 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 1: motivated reasoning is, it's self deceptive, irrational, and it lies 262 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 1: outside of our conscious awareness. So is it just more 263 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:06,120 Speaker 1: effort than not to actually put thought into consciously why 264 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 1: you are doing what you're doing or thinking what you're thinking. 265 00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 1: It's two things. One is effortful um. So in order 266 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 1: to over among the ways to override subconscious by cognitive 267 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:27,880 Speaker 1: biases is to be mindful, right, to get mindful of practices, 268 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 1: to be very introspective um. Sometimes to enlist the help 269 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:35,359 Speaker 1: of others, friends who might give you honest critique and 270 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:39,960 Speaker 1: feedback that you'll take. Um. The other thing is that 271 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:46,600 Speaker 1: it's just emotional and for a hater to step back 272 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 1: and ask, am I motivated by things that I made? 273 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 1: The test? Right? If you see yourself as a racial 274 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:58,679 Speaker 1: egalitarian and realize you're motivated to dislike somebody because of 275 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:03,880 Speaker 1: racial bias, that can be jarring to you. It doesn't 276 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:07,679 Speaker 1: behoove you too. For many people to step back and 277 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:12,200 Speaker 1: ask themselves, does that motivate them? Um? If you see 278 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:19,439 Speaker 1: yourself as an honest, upright, forth right um individual, but 279 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:21,880 Speaker 1: you step back and take an honest assessment of your 280 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 1: conduct and behavior with respect to some of the person 281 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:28,440 Speaker 1: or some other thing, and you realize your tribute your 282 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 1: petty um, that might be too jarring for you. So 283 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 1: there may not be significant motivation for haters to engage 284 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 1: in much introspection either right right, Well, when I initially 285 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 1: reached out to you, um, I mentioned that just the 286 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 1: pop culture aspect of this, like how prevalent this is, 287 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 1: especially on social media. Reality TV is a huge part 288 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:58,640 Speaker 1: of this. And I'm very fascinated about the entertainment aspect 289 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:03,640 Speaker 1: of hating, Like why do we as human beings gravitate 290 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 1: towards hating in a way of even wanting to make 291 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:10,639 Speaker 1: someone a villain? Like I find myself even watching certain shows, 292 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 1: and even though I can have factual information that these 293 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:17,199 Speaker 1: shows are not true, that they are heavily edited to 294 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 1: make me think a certain way, I still emotionally get 295 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 1: attached to creating a villain and a hero. Do you 296 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 1: have anything to say about that? Like what it is 297 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:31,920 Speaker 1: in our brains that makes us wired that way? There 298 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:35,720 Speaker 1: could be a few different things, Okay. One of the 299 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 1: things that triggers Cave is a theory called the tall 300 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:42,639 Speaker 1: Poppy syncome which is you don't want the status that 301 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 1: a person has, but a person of high status you 302 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 1: simply might resent, and you want them to have their 303 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:52,200 Speaker 1: come up, and so you want them taken down a nodge. 304 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:58,400 Speaker 1: It could be envy. U'm not saying you specifically, but uh, 305 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:02,680 Speaker 1: sometimes we want what somebody else has, and we think 306 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:06,639 Speaker 1: that they aren't justified in having the perception of what 307 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 1: they have because you know, reality TV quite often when 308 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:13,119 Speaker 1: we look behind the curtain, that's not really what's going on. 309 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:16,920 Speaker 1: Right We I look at a professional athlete and say, 310 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:21,440 Speaker 1: I can't stand such and such an athlete because they're 311 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 1: wealthy and they're on TV all the time and they've 312 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 1: got beautiful women all around that, But in reality they 313 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:32,680 Speaker 1: may be close to being broke financially, you don't know. 314 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 1: The other is emotional contagion, that the feelings that a 315 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:42,960 Speaker 1: person or some other people have may be contagious amongst 316 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:46,159 Speaker 1: other groups of people. And that's particular that may be 317 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:50,400 Speaker 1: particularly the case in a social media or media context. 318 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 1: In fact, Facebook got in troubles to this not too 319 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:58,200 Speaker 1: long ago by running an experiment on Facebook to see 320 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 1: if they could shift people's emotions. They did a study 321 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:05,920 Speaker 1: of seeing how easily they can shift people's uh emotions 322 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 1: and Facebook. So some of it may simply be if 323 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:13,120 Speaker 1: you're watching a show and person A is hating off 324 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:18,159 Speaker 1: person be, you may simply buy into how person A 325 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 1: feels you wouldn't have felt that way about being independently. Okay, 326 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:28,400 Speaker 1: so you just get emotionally attached to their emotions almost, Yes, 327 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:33,120 Speaker 1: you're connected to the emotions of another individual. Wow, that's 328 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 1: so fascinating to me because it's it is I found. 329 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 1: I found myself. I work in the entertainment industry. I 330 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 1: know the nature of spin right, logically, I know what 331 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:46,239 Speaker 1: a publicist does, I know how this all works. And 332 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 1: yet I still find myself being drawn into certain emotions 333 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 1: or emotionally attached like you're saying, and logics sort of 334 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:56,800 Speaker 1: can go out of the window with that. Well, keep 335 00:22:56,840 --> 00:23:01,160 Speaker 1: in mind that it's all subconscious, right right, e sarely conscious, 336 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:06,120 Speaker 1: there'd be easier buffers against them. But the way that 337 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:11,360 Speaker 1: skilled individuals and marketing work right and at a company 338 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:15,880 Speaker 1: is not to appeal to um your conscious wants, wishes, 339 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:21,160 Speaker 1: hopes and desires, but it's to appeal to your subconscious hopes, wishes, 340 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 1: wants and desires um and offering things visually or tactically 341 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 1: or in an old factory sense that evoke a range 342 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:36,199 Speaker 1: of emotions that simply trying to tell you directly you 343 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 1: should want this product, it wouldn't have the same uh, 344 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 1: same effect, it wouldn't be as significant and profile. Right, 345 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:47,959 Speaker 1: And in fact, you have you mentioned in the article 346 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:54,240 Speaker 1: that sometimes when presented with factual evidence that contradicts what 347 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:57,640 Speaker 1: we already think, there can be a backfire effect when 348 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:01,119 Speaker 1: in fact you can show the people or show these 349 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 1: facts and instead of convincing them to think a different way, 350 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:08,880 Speaker 1: they're so set in their ways. This goes specifically to haters, 351 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,440 Speaker 1: I think too. But um, they're so set in their 352 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 1: beliefs that it in fact can make them even stronger 353 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:19,880 Speaker 1: in their own beliefs. Yeah. Sometimes people are emotionally wedded 354 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:24,160 Speaker 1: to their beliefs, I mean, and it's tied to um 355 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:29,720 Speaker 1: um uh. You know, a motivated reasoning, all right, And 356 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 1: that motivated reasoning largely comes out of or is often 357 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:37,440 Speaker 1: used in the political psychology space. We often are very 358 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,920 Speaker 1: committed to a candidate or a leader or a set 359 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 1: of ideologies, and there may be deep weaknesses with that 360 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 1: um leader or ideology or candidate, and we're just not 361 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:56,840 Speaker 1: prepared to really think through all of those complexities. And 362 00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:01,480 Speaker 1: so when someone presents evidence to you that could fundamentally 363 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 1: undermine what you believe about that person or that ideology 364 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:11,160 Speaker 1: or that political party, um or the person that you're 365 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 1: hating on UM. Instead of grappling with the complexities and 366 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 1: with the facts, sometimes individuals simply double down on what 367 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:26,040 Speaker 1: they believe because they're so emotionally committed to believe in it, 368 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:30,639 Speaker 1: and they filter out the evidence that could um, that 369 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 1: could chip away at that belief, at that belief system. 370 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:36,680 Speaker 1: And You're right, it's called the backfire effect. We see 371 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 1: it all the time in the world. UM that people 372 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 1: they just don't want to have to uh grapple with 373 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:47,920 Speaker 1: that information. And take a young lady who a friend 374 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:51,400 Speaker 1: of her says, I saw your your your husband with 375 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:55,359 Speaker 1: some other woman in a motel and she doubles down 376 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,359 Speaker 1: and says, I don't I no longer want you as 377 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 1: my friend. You can't be telling me the truth what 378 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:03,920 Speaker 1: our hearts. She probably knows that that that that there's 379 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,640 Speaker 1: some truth to it. It's just too painful to accept 380 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:11,400 Speaker 1: the facts that they are right. Gosh, it's fascinating. So 381 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,960 Speaker 1: is there any resolve to this hater issue because we've 382 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 1: mentioned it in the entertainment world, but this is such 383 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 1: a broader issue. I mean, we see it, like you 384 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:23,120 Speaker 1: mentioned in politics, the racism issues we're having right now 385 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:28,200 Speaker 1: even honestly with the current the current pandemic um just coronavirus. 386 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:30,240 Speaker 1: There's a back and forth of is this real? Is 387 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 1: this not real? You know, I think there's the two 388 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:35,440 Speaker 1: sides arguing that out right now. Is there any resolve 389 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 1: to changing this? I think so. I mean, as a psychologist, 390 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:45,959 Speaker 1: there's plenty of information about how people can change how 391 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:50,680 Speaker 1: they view the world and how they behave The question 392 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:55,320 Speaker 1: is are people motivated to use the information right against 393 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 1: the Dr Fauci right, Yes, you're motivated to use what 394 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,679 Speaker 1: the act with science is to solve a problem or 395 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:04,920 Speaker 1: do they want to go with their gutting with their 396 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 1: emotions and and there's a there's a polarity in society 397 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,240 Speaker 1: where many people are far more comfortable going with their 398 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:15,240 Speaker 1: gut intuition hunches, which is usually not the paths to 399 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:19,680 Speaker 1: resolvable problem because there are too many pitfalls and following 400 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:24,360 Speaker 1: your gut assumptions intuitions. Not to say that science is perfect, 401 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 1: but sciences and social science included as at least some 402 00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 1: methodology that is applied by experts to uh control external 403 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 1: forces and make it more likely that the methods being 404 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:45,680 Speaker 1: used can predict what's really going on or offer more 405 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 1: practical solutions than than guessing. And so I mean there 406 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:53,240 Speaker 1: are two sides to this coin. One is the hater UM, 407 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,200 Speaker 1: and the hater has to be motivated not to want 408 00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 1: to be a hater, and I don't think anybody can 409 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:03,480 Speaker 1: can vinced them. I won't say that. I won't say that. 410 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:08,120 Speaker 1: The part of it has the behaviors have to not 411 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 1: want to behaviors, And part of that is UM being 412 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:18,719 Speaker 1: willing to take honest stock of how irrational was thinking 413 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 1: is and the irrational and costic their behavior might be. 414 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:28,720 Speaker 1: And so, like I said before, mindfulness practices, I suspect 415 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 1: someone who engages in mindfulness practices on a regular basis 416 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 1: is probably less likely to be a hater because they're 417 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 1: more into what their feelings and emotions are and probably 418 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:45,840 Speaker 1: in a better position to regulate control that. Another would 419 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 1: be to write down what you're really thinking and feeling, 420 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 1: because seeing it on paper may provide more clarity than 421 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 1: simply just going and acting on auto pilot. Another is 422 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 1: to have an honest outside a critic, a friend who 423 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:05,560 Speaker 1: gives you honest feedback about your behavior that you're willing 424 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 1: to listen to. And so a friend may be able 425 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 1: to say, you know, the way you engage with person 426 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:18,440 Speaker 1: a UM doesn't seem wholly irrational, seems motivated by negative emotions, 427 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,480 Speaker 1: and there seems to be no basis for those negative emotions. 428 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:25,280 Speaker 1: And if you're the hater and you're open to such feedback, 429 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:30,160 Speaker 1: it may make it more likely that you'll you'll rethink 430 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:33,280 Speaker 1: how you're thinking and certainly be thinking how you're behaving. 431 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 1: The other is sort of coping with the hate, right, 432 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 1: recognizing that you're hating on somebody on somebody else, but 433 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 1: turning that hate into something positive. So, if you're envy 434 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,720 Speaker 1: is you see this in the envy literature. If you're 435 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 1: envious a person a, instead of trying to take down 436 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,480 Speaker 1: person a, why don't you try to rise to the 437 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:58,480 Speaker 1: level of personnet So, if it's a coworker and they're 438 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 1: in a managerial position and and not, instead of trying 439 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 1: to undermine them as a manager, why not put in 440 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 1: the kind of effort that they put in to get 441 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 1: to that position. And barring you know, any kind of 442 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:18,240 Speaker 1: unfair value of judgments by those who decide who gets 443 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:22,760 Speaker 1: promoted to managerial positions, can you may too be promoted? 444 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 1: Right because you put in the sweat equity instead of 445 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:29,760 Speaker 1: trying to take somebody down. On the other side of 446 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,400 Speaker 1: the question is what can hate it the hated person 447 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 1: do um, And I'll focus on the hated person and 448 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:41,160 Speaker 1: not entities because I think entities probably care less because 449 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 1: the fact that the hater is probably less significant to 450 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 1: an entity like a football team and a football team 451 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 1: into an individual player. Right. One is um, you know, 452 00:30:56,080 --> 00:31:00,880 Speaker 1: simply countering their irrational arguments. Right. So let's say it's 453 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 1: a person who's a coworker. They're hating on you does 454 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:09,480 Speaker 1: affect your work environment, and they make a bunch of 455 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 1: arguments about why they have an issue with you that 456 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 1: the arguments just don't make sense, right, And they don't 457 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 1: make sense because hating is irrational. So let's say they say, 458 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 1: my issue, um with person A is that they didn't 459 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:29,800 Speaker 1: come in on time. Um, and I just don't think 460 00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 1: their team player. Um. The hated person can say, but 461 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 1: here's my time, car, I've come in on time the 462 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:39,479 Speaker 1: past six months and backed up in here early past 463 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 1: six months. Uh, all five days of each week. The 464 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,000 Speaker 1: hater may say, well, my issue with you is that 465 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:50,640 Speaker 1: you know you you sometimes leave early. I hated person say, well, 466 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:55,600 Speaker 1: here's my time. Car. I've not left early, say one 467 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 1: time and I had to take my child to a 468 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:02,040 Speaker 1: dentist appointment. You don't have an issue with this other 469 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 1: person and they regularly regularly leave early. And then certainly 470 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:10,200 Speaker 1: the hater may say, but but my issue with you 471 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,720 Speaker 1: is that anything. And you're not a team players. You 472 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,720 Speaker 1: take long lunch breaks, and I say I took a 473 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 1: long lunch break one day because I had to go 474 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 1: to a doctor's appointment. Other than that, I don't take 475 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:25,840 Speaker 1: lunch breaks. The point is the logical fallacy that the 476 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:29,120 Speaker 1: hater has engaged. That's called moving the goalposts. That none 477 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 1: of those are really the reasons. They're fishing for a 478 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:35,080 Speaker 1: reason that makes sense to them for why they don't 479 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:39,400 Speaker 1: like this person. Uh, And exposing the fact to the 480 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:43,400 Speaker 1: hater and maybe the other individuals that really the things 481 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:46,600 Speaker 1: that you say bother you about me, they're just not true. 482 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 1: None of them are true, and you're looking for a reason, 483 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,920 Speaker 1: would suggests that you're trying to find a justification for 484 00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:58,720 Speaker 1: disliking me, not disliking me based on some real justification. 485 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:03,320 Speaker 1: Maybe I opening not simply to the hater, but to others. 486 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 1: And if others are prized of it, there may be 487 00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:09,680 Speaker 1: more room for intervention. UM. The other would be if 488 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:15,200 Speaker 1: you're in an un organizational context, UM is reporting it right, 489 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:19,240 Speaker 1: especially if it becomes so toxic that it's detrimental to 490 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:23,320 Speaker 1: your personal experience there, if you're an employee, for example, 491 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 1: or you know. Another example might be f cen is 492 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:31,880 Speaker 1: and NBA players who fans who are sitting front row, Um, 493 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:35,440 Speaker 1: you know, maybe and they're they're fans of another team, 494 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 1: arguably hating on a player from the team they don't 495 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:44,280 Speaker 1: like and saying cruel stuff, maybe offensively touching the player 496 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:48,200 Speaker 1: is reporting in security right, getting them removed. The last 497 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:51,160 Speaker 1: thing I'd say, and these aren't the only ways to 498 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:52,440 Speaker 1: be able to hate it with the last thing I'd 499 00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:55,920 Speaker 1: say on this point is let haters hate. I've said 500 00:33:56,160 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 1: any number of songs, especially in hip hop, where basically 501 00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:05,160 Speaker 1: the argument is do you and blow up? Blow up? Right? 502 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:10,919 Speaker 1: And that's another approach, right that the hated individual can say, 503 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:14,520 Speaker 1: I'm gonna take this hate and use it as fuel 504 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:18,440 Speaker 1: to give you even more of a reason to hate 505 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:23,600 Speaker 1: on me. Um and so yeah, and and such fuel, 506 00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:28,000 Speaker 1: such energy can charge an individual to accomplish even more 507 00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:31,440 Speaker 1: significant things and they've accomplished in the past, do you 508 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:34,359 Speaker 1: and glow up and blow up? I'm taking that one 509 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:37,840 Speaker 1: with me today. UM. Okay, Dr Parks, where can people 510 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:41,880 Speaker 1: find you? While I'm a law professor of professor of Law, 511 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:45,680 Speaker 1: Wake Force University School of Law. Um, I've been here 512 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:51,719 Speaker 1: eight years. I teach classes in UM civil litigation, UM 513 00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:55,640 Speaker 1: sort of non criminal harms, race, the law, and social 514 00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:58,440 Speaker 1: science and law. So I'm right there. I'll wait Force website. 515 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:04,160 Speaker 1: My website as Gregory Parks dot net. Um, you can 516 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:08,600 Speaker 1: find me there um at um Black j D, pH 517 00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:13,960 Speaker 1: d on Twitter, uh and at the Alpha Revolution on Facebook, 518 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:20,080 Speaker 1: I mean on Instagram. Um. And if you're interested in 519 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:22,560 Speaker 1: my writings, you know I have an author's page on 520 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:27,439 Speaker 1: Amazon dot com and I write a range of different areas, um, 521 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:31,760 Speaker 1: not just about haters, but those are the various places 522 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:35,239 Speaker 1: where individuals can connect with me. And you actually have 523 00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:37,960 Speaker 1: a new book out called A Pledge with Purpose. Tell 524 00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:41,920 Speaker 1: us a little bit about that book. Yeah, so uh, 525 00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:48,359 Speaker 1: um active and engaged in my fraternity as a historically 526 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:53,040 Speaker 1: African American fraternity. Actually the first um Andre collegiate Histropia 527 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:56,840 Speaker 1: African American fraternity Alpha Bi Alpha that Cornell University in 528 00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:00,760 Speaker 1: nineteen o six, and I do research on UM Black 529 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,839 Speaker 1: UH fraternities and sororities, and so this is a book 530 00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:09,640 Speaker 1: on these organizations which looks at their history of racial 531 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:12,880 Speaker 1: uplift and empowerment from the turn of the twentieth century 532 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:16,760 Speaker 1: to the early to mid nineteen sixties. It's a pledge 533 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:21,040 Speaker 1: with purpose subtitle Black Sororities and Fraternities and the Fight 534 00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:24,879 Speaker 1: for Equality So often with a good friend of mine, 535 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,320 Speaker 1: Matthew Huey, who's a sociology professor at the University Connecticut. 536 00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:32,640 Speaker 1: Published by the n y U Press New York University Press, 537 00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:36,080 Speaker 1: came out just a few weeks ago. You can get 538 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:38,719 Speaker 1: it on n y U presses website or you can 539 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:41,800 Speaker 1: get it on Amazon dot com. Amazing you guys, go 540 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:44,799 Speaker 1: check out Dr Parks. Thank you so much for being here. 541 00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:47,360 Speaker 1: I'm going to link your Huffington Post article in the 542 00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:50,399 Speaker 1: bio of our the description of this podcast to you guys. 543 00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:53,000 Speaker 1: Go check that out. It's amazing. Dr Parks, Thank you 544 00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:56,480 Speaker 1: so much. Thank you appreciate your time of patients. Thank 545 00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:57,360 Speaker 1: you guys for listening.