1 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:07,200 Speaker 1: Hi, this is Annie and this is Bridget, and you're 2 00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:22,160 Speaker 1: listening to stuff. Mom never told you. This is another update, 3 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 1: another video game update for you, and this one is 4 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: about UM characters and games and UM women playing video games, 5 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 1: and it is another supplement to our recent episode that 6 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:38,200 Speaker 1: we did on women in online Gaming UM. And kind 7 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:41,479 Speaker 1: of a couple of updates from me is that E 8 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 1: three has was happening recently when we were recording this 9 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:48,839 Speaker 1: And what is E three? Annie? Three? Wow, Bridget, I 10 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 1: actually don't know what E standard. The three E Standford's 11 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 1: Electronics something something. It's when all the video game announcements happened. 12 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: One of my favorite games that I mentioned in that episode, 13 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:00,080 Speaker 1: The Last of Us, had like a twelve Men it 14 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 1: game demo that just blew me away. And it's a 15 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:08,760 Speaker 1: demo and I watched like five times. I'm like already 16 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:11,039 Speaker 1: planning because I don't have what I believe it will 17 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 1: be on the PlayStation four and I don't have one, 18 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 1: but I'm going to buy one when that game comes out. 19 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 1: I'm like stashing money away. We're moving towards having more 20 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 1: inclusive characters and storylines, which is good. There's always always 21 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 1: always room for more progress. But in this episode, Christen Caroline, 22 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 1: do look at kind of the past of characters such 23 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:35,319 Speaker 1: as Sammy's which is a pretty formative character for me. 24 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 1: And then, um, where where we're going in the future. 25 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: And uh, another game I love is mass In fact, 26 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:43,640 Speaker 1: if you heard Mass Effect, I have heard of it. 27 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:46,120 Speaker 1: I don't know much about it. Okay, Well, I'd like 28 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 1: games like that too, where you can kind of pick 29 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: if you want to be male or female or alien 30 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: or pretty much all kinds of things, and then you 31 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 1: get to pursue romance with anyone you want. And I 32 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 1: always went from the cars that's a pan sexual dreams. 33 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 1: I always for the alien and I had a weird 34 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 1: crush on him, like outside of the game, but you 35 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 1: have to like go get sex advice at one point 36 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 1: in the game because he's a he's a different species, 37 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 1: and the doctors like, well, I would suggest lub good 38 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:17,360 Speaker 1: advice for anyone alien, any species. Really, Lub is always 39 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:20,520 Speaker 1: a good advice. Yeah, I agree, I agree. So, um, 40 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 1: we hope you enjoy this are our second update in 41 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 1: our video game kind of little mini serious thing we 42 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 1: have happening here, and we'll definitely do more episodes on 43 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 1: video games because it's not obvious. I'm a big fan, 44 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:38,799 Speaker 1: but enjoy this. In the meantime, Hello, and welcome to 45 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 1: the podcast. I'm Caroline and I'm Kristen. This is part 46 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 1: two looking at women in video games. The last episode, 47 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 1: which I'm sure you listen to, was focusing on women 48 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 1: in the actual gaming industry, the women who designed the games, 49 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 1: run the company's come up with these great ideas, and 50 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:02,080 Speaker 1: the fact that while the numbers aren't great, there is 51 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 1: hope out there. We gave you a list of a 52 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 1: lot of really interesting women who are heading up companies 53 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 1: and designing the games. This episode, we're gonna be talking 54 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:13,920 Speaker 1: about both the women playing the games and the women 55 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 1: in the games. Yeah, so let's kick off with some 56 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 1: numbers for a little refresher. Women comprise of the entire 57 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 1: gaming population, and that includes all kinds of games, and 58 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 1: then from there we comprise of video gamers. So anyone 59 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 1: who says women and girls don't play video games don't 60 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 1: know what they're talking about. One thing that has kind 61 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: of lobbed against women gamers, though, is that a lot 62 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 1: of us play social games. These might be on social media. 63 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 1: They're called social or casual gaming, and it's things like 64 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 1: Candy Crush, for instance. Yeah, the interesting thing is how King, 65 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 1: which is a company that publishes Candy Crush, actually tests 66 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: all of its new games on a target demo of 67 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 1: women to fifty five, and if they like it, they 68 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 1: go ahead and put it out because they've found that 69 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:16,719 Speaker 1: if women to fifty five respond well to a game, 70 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:19,479 Speaker 1: it goes on to be a smash hit with all audiences. 71 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 1: What do you know about that? Who knew? Well? So, 72 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 1: women comprise of social gamers compared to forty six percent 73 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 1: of men, and the average age is forty What's up 74 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 1: with that? Why? Why do women make up such a 75 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:36,279 Speaker 1: huge percent of social gamers? I think it could have 76 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 1: something to do with the fact that, I don't know, 77 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 1: we're busy and we might not have a tendency to 78 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:42,840 Speaker 1: sit down and play Halo for five hours. Yeah. I mean, 79 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 1: first of all, we dominate social media. There are more 80 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:49,359 Speaker 1: of us on places like Facebook, where you see so 81 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 1: many Candy Crush updates and ads, um. But experts suggest 82 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:58,280 Speaker 1: that essentially women are adult women where I mean, think 83 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:01,719 Speaker 1: about moms, okay, working mom. They are multitasking, they have 84 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 1: so much to do. And there was a story that 85 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:08,600 Speaker 1: I was reading interviewing one woman about her candy crush addiction, 86 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: and she I think she had she had a very 87 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 1: young child, and she said, I play it during naptime 88 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:18,039 Speaker 1: because it's just this little window of time that I 89 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: have all to myself, and it allows me to forget everything. 90 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:24,160 Speaker 1: She can't sit down and play Call of Duty for 91 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:26,840 Speaker 1: eight hours, and she says that playing it offers her 92 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:31,239 Speaker 1: just this window of escape and because she doesn't have time, 93 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:35,039 Speaker 1: for instance, to not that all men have hours to 94 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:37,840 Speaker 1: kill playing Call of Duty kill Call of Duty un 95 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 1: pun but that they think that that's one reason why 96 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 1: adult women tend to play more on the go games 97 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 1: is just because we have smaller pockets of time throughout 98 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 1: the day. Perhaps, um, but this whole women being more 99 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:54,919 Speaker 1: drawn to social and casual gaming as it's called. I 100 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 1: kind of hate the term casual gaming because it plays 101 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 1: into the stereotype at women aren't legit gamers. Because if 102 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 1: you start talking to quote unquote hardcore gamers and you 103 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:12,480 Speaker 1: are a female identified, well, just get ready because they 104 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:15,359 Speaker 1: will challenge your credibility because they're gonna want to know 105 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:17,720 Speaker 1: as soon as you say that you enjoy games, you're 106 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:21,159 Speaker 1: gonna need you Essentially need to resume to prove that 107 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:22,599 Speaker 1: you know what you're talking about, kind of like talking 108 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:26,280 Speaker 1: to like record store guys, no offense. Yeah, well so 109 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 1: you mentioned hardcore, like that's that's actually a thing. That's 110 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 1: a demographic. Hardcore gamers are defined by play time per 111 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 1: week and are basically a smaller subset of a games 112 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 1: core audience. These are the top ten percent of gamers 113 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 1: who spend the most time playing per week, at nineteen 114 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: hours a week. Nineteen hours a week. That's incredible. That's 115 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 1: a second job. That's like a part time job. And 116 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 1: Dennis Schameeca over at Venture be looked into gender and 117 00:06:56,400 --> 00:07:00,160 Speaker 1: core and hardcore gaming, because don't confuse core game ing 118 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 1: and hardcore gaming. Core gamers simply refer to anyone who 119 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 1: plays video games on consoles like Xbox three, sixty p 120 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 1: S three uh, as well as like Nintendo WE and 121 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:16,559 Speaker 1: three D S. And when you look at the top 122 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 1: selling super genres as they're called for these core gamers, 123 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 1: those console players, it is a lot of guy oriented stuff. 124 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 1: First person shooter games, action games, sports games. Those are 125 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: the three not surprisingly top sellers, and they have overwhelmingly 126 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 1: over male audiences. Although as we mentioned in that last 127 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 1: podcast in Part one of our video game series. Do 128 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:44,239 Speaker 1: not discount women for not wanting to play first person 129 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: shooter games, action games, etcetera. Because what was it like 130 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 1: of women enjoy playing violent video games? Absolutely, and when 131 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 1: you talk about these core gamers, these are the people 132 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:59,239 Speaker 1: who really have the most influence over how the public 133 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 1: thinks about video games and gamers. So when you think 134 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 1: of a gamer, the image that comes to mind is 135 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 1: not a forty year old married woman playing candy Crush. 136 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 1: You think of that demographic that is playing a first 137 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:15,800 Speaker 1: person shooter game on the Xbox three sixty for instance. 138 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 1: So when you look at the age breakdown for core 139 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 1: and hardcore gamers, the core audience has an average age 140 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 1: of about thirty and is excuse sixty forty mail. The 141 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 1: hardcore average age is lower, it's about five and skews 142 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 1: eighty five to fifteen mail. And that I mean that 143 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:41,719 Speaker 1: breakdown of the hardcore gaming population is where a lot 144 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 1: of this idea that well, women don't play video games, 145 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 1: No women are actual legit gamers. That's where a lot 146 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 1: of this comes in. But the thing is, you got 147 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 1: to remember when you're hearing from hardcore gamers, we're talking 148 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 1: about like the ninety percentile gamers. These are the people 149 00:08:56,559 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 1: who play in the top ten percent, like nineteen Like 150 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 1: you said, an average that means some people play plenty 151 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 1: more than nineteen hours a week. These are It's like 152 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 1: the voices a few are being broadcast too many exactly Well, now, Christine, 153 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:15,680 Speaker 1: you said something a minute ago about like if a 154 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 1: if a woman or a young girl says that she's 155 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 1: a gamer, she basically has to prove herself, like she 156 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:22,840 Speaker 1: needs a resume to prove that she knows about and 157 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:26,599 Speaker 1: plays games. This ties into the whole girl gamer stereotype, 158 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 1: and girl usually spelled when it's being used as a 159 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 1: pejorative term gu r L not to be confused with 160 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 1: the generic just a girl game or a female person 161 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 1: who plays games, and not to be confused with fake 162 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 1: geek girls. Like all of these things that arouse such 163 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:46,959 Speaker 1: ire in a lot of young men playing video games, 164 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 1: and a lot of stereotypes that come up with this 165 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 1: girl gamer surround the idea that any woman or young 166 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:57,199 Speaker 1: girl who is playing games is just doing it for attention, 167 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 1: And God forbid you claim the term girl gamer for yourself. 168 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 1: God forbids you want to set yourself apart as a 169 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 1: woman and own it, because there's that notion that if 170 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 1: you're doing it, you do just want attention. You're not 171 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:13,839 Speaker 1: even allowed to own your own femininity or femaleness. Yeah, 172 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 1: and and this spawned an entire meme across the internet 173 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 1: where and you have like women participating in it as well, 174 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 1: talking down about oh, girl gamers. She's just the girl 175 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 1: gamerh did she instagram herself looking cute with her joy 176 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 1: stick in our hand? Then you're just a girl gamer. 177 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:35,960 Speaker 1: You don't actually enjoy these games. And um, I got 178 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 1: into a little bit of a Reddit rabbit hole reading 179 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:41,440 Speaker 1: up on girl gamers because it's just interesting to see 180 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: just first person these perceptions and people's supposed experiences with them. 181 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:51,320 Speaker 1: And there was one woman's post on Reddit talking about 182 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:53,559 Speaker 1: you know what, She kind of copped to it. She said, 183 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:58,560 Speaker 1: I was a girl gamer for a while. She started 184 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 1: talking about how she kind of found gaming and it 185 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 1: was the first place where she ever received attention, any 186 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 1: kind of attention from God. She never really fit in, 187 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:12,439 Speaker 1: she was overweight, she just never felt good about herself, 188 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 1: and finally when she found gaming, all of a sudden, 189 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 1: men were taking interest in her because she was into 190 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:24,679 Speaker 1: this kind of male oriented hobby, and she said that 191 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:27,080 Speaker 1: for a while she kind of played it up because 192 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 1: she enjoyed that so much. And to me, her experience 193 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:34,920 Speaker 1: was telling because it seemed like this wasn't an issue 194 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 1: of oh, well, this most means that women aren't legitimate gamers, 195 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 1: but more just has to do with you know, flirtation, 196 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 1: body image, how we deal with the world and our 197 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 1: attractions and attractiveness, etcetera. Where But but what is what 198 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 1: what it's led to is a lot of slut shaming 199 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 1: that happens and just ickiness that women have to deal with. 200 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 1: That was one of the main things that our Facebook 201 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 1: stuff Mo'm Never Told you followers responded to when we 202 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:06,280 Speaker 1: asked what we should talk about regarding video games, so 203 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 1: many women said, oh, please talk about girl gamers and 204 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:12,559 Speaker 1: how I always have to prove myself. Yeah, but those 205 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 1: girl gamers are a lot of the times having to 206 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 1: prove themselves based on their looks, whereas if a dude 207 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:18,840 Speaker 1: comes along and wants to play a game, it's like, okay, 208 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 1: well we're going to test you based on your skill. 209 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:22,679 Speaker 1: Are you any good at this? No? Okay, well, then 210 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:25,679 Speaker 1: obviously you're not worth it. Whereas when a woman comes along, 211 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 1: it's like, okay, well are you hot? Are you really 212 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 1: playing the game? Are you just posing with your joystick 213 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 1: and like licking it and posting pictures of yourself on 214 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 1: the internet, Like yeah, first of all, why are you 215 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:37,559 Speaker 1: looking at joystick? But that's the thing, there's like that 216 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:40,680 Speaker 1: horrible divide where men at least get the get the 217 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 1: favor of being judged on their actual skill, whereas women 218 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:46,680 Speaker 1: are just like are you cute or not? Or yeah, 219 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't think I've ever heard anyone termed 220 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 1: a guy gamer. Oh he's a guy gamer. He's just 221 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:54,840 Speaker 1: he's just posing with that joystick by his abs, for 222 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 1: just for the just for the ladies. Well, then, I 223 00:12:57,720 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 1: mean that's another thing. You hear a lot of guys 224 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:01,559 Speaker 1: saying like, shut up about being a girl gamer. I 225 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:03,720 Speaker 1: don't call myself a guy gamer. You're just a gamer 226 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:06,920 Speaker 1: and so, but then that discourages girls and women who 227 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 1: do want to own it, because yes, okay, well there's 228 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:13,600 Speaker 1: a girl gamer demographic. That's like just doing it for attention, 229 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:16,680 Speaker 1: according to these guys. But then what happens when the 230 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 1: girls and women actually want to say, no, I'm different 231 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 1: from you, I play differently, I want different things, and 232 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 1: why do all of these criteria have to exist? Katie 233 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:30,599 Speaker 1: Heeney over at BuzzFeed created just such a perfect collection 234 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 1: of all of the slut shamy, confusing, and sometimes straight 235 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 1: up sexist and contradictory rules for being a girl gamer, 236 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 1: where it's like, you gotta play games, but you can't 237 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:45,079 Speaker 1: be too obvious about it, because if you're too obvious 238 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 1: about how you like games, and they're just going to 239 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:49,440 Speaker 1: assume that you're a girl gamer. And then you know, 240 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:52,080 Speaker 1: they guys want you to be attractive because we like 241 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 1: looking at attractive people. But if you're too attractive, you know, 242 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 1: it's just like and so that's why a lot of 243 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 1: times women will end up going just like, won't speak, 244 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 1: for instance, on you know, like multiplayer games. They won't. 245 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 1: They just keep their femaleness as hidden as possible, just 246 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 1: to not have to even deal with it. Yeah, Blogger 247 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 1: Stephanie ben Dixon basically said the exact same thing. She 248 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 1: was talking about how she finds herself editing certain aspects 249 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 1: of her femininity for fear that it would somehow damage 250 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 1: her credibility. And I mean this gets into all sorts 251 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:27,720 Speaker 1: of issues that christ and I have talked about before 252 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 1: as far as fem phobia goes. But Stephanie says, hey, look, 253 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 1: I have a lot of pink tech accessories, and she 254 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 1: goes into it. It starts to sound really cool, and 255 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 1: she's like owning her differences. She says she accepts the 256 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 1: term girl gamer because for now we're still a minority 257 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 1: that faces a wall of angry nerd rage. But in 258 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 1: talking about her pink accessories, I noticed something very interesting 259 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 1: because at first she's like, yeah, I'm owning it, like 260 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 1: pink is different. But then she says, I liked the 261 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 1: idea of how this obnoxiously defiant and slightly sickening color 262 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 1: would go against the grain somewhat. And then I'm like, oh, 263 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 1: it's Stephanie, Like there's still she while she is owning 264 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 1: pink and owning the term girl gamer, there's still sounds 265 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 1: like there's from phobia in that, because she's calling the 266 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 1: color pink obnoxious and sickening, and so it still sounds 267 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 1: like she's been discouraged over her game playing career from 268 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 1: kind of owning her femaleness. Well, I think it's because 269 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 1: of a lot of those contradictory rules in quotes that 270 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 1: pop up for you know, just you can't you can't 271 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 1: look like you're trying too hard, you know. Um. And 272 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 1: it's fascinating to me that in this segment, specifically like 273 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 1: in gaming, that it's such a prominent aspect of it, 274 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 1: like this just this common assumption that that women have 275 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 1: some kind of ulterior motive for wanting to play games. Um. 276 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 1: But unfortunately, like the kinds of you know, the issues 277 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:55,360 Speaker 1: of harassment that women in the video game industry, the 278 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 1: ones who are making the games, sometimes run up against 279 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:02,560 Speaker 1: another thing there was echoed among people on Facebook was 280 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 1: the issue of also dealing with straight up harassment from 281 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:08,800 Speaker 1: other gamers as soon as their female identity is revealed. 282 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 1: Sometimes they just get an onslaught of come ons, or 283 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 1: just gendered epithets. Uh. There was a survey conducted by 284 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 1: Emily Matthew at the Price Charting Blog which found that 285 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:24,640 Speaker 1: women are harassed four times as often as men, and 286 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: six reported being called a slut, whore or other words 287 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 1: that I can't say on this podcast. And there are 288 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 1: also lots of charming requests for women to just get 289 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 1: back in the kitchen and start making lots of sandwiches. Yeah, 290 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 1: and in that pole of the people she talked to 291 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 1: believe that sexism is rampant. Interesting don't but I mean, 292 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 1: you know, you would, you would think that they're okay. 293 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 1: So there is a degree of awareness, but it sure 294 00:16:54,000 --> 00:17:06,480 Speaker 1: is still bad out there despite that awareness. It does 295 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 1: go both ways. Fifteen point seven percent of men also 296 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:14,120 Speaker 1: reported that they had experienced sex based taunting, harassment, or 297 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:18,679 Speaker 1: threats while playing video games. Um and ten percent of 298 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:22,880 Speaker 1: women unfortunately copped to using their gender for favors, basically 299 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 1: like strolling into a world of warcraft and being like, oh, yes, 300 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:32,920 Speaker 1: you wanted to give me gold Shore a no problem tee. Well, 301 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 1: and just like we talked about in the last episode, 302 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:38,920 Speaker 1: where um, a lot of well not a lot, but 303 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:41,359 Speaker 1: but many women, probably many more than we even know. 304 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:44,120 Speaker 1: Many women have left the industry because of the abuse. 305 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 1: Nearly thirty six percent of women that Emily Matthew pulled 306 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 1: reported having to quit playing temporarily because of the abuse 307 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:54,480 Speaker 1: and the harassment, versus eleven point seven percent of guys 308 00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:57,680 Speaker 1: that she pulled. Game is game is you'd be mean? 309 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 1: Sometimes We're looking a little bit deeper into this issue. 310 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 1: A team over at Ohio University looked at the reactions 311 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 1: by gamers to female voices versus male voices on Xbox Alive, 312 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 1: like looking at first person shooter games, and they publish 313 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 1: a study in the journal New Media and Society, and 314 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:25,240 Speaker 1: one of the researchers, why you en tang Um, explained how, 315 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 1: on average, female voices received three times as many negative 316 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:33,639 Speaker 1: comments as male voices or no male voices, and on 317 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 1: top of that, women's voices received more queries and messages 318 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:40,919 Speaker 1: from other gamers than male voices or no voices. So 319 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:44,920 Speaker 1: it's kind of the same thing of Uh, just by 320 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,320 Speaker 1: virtue of being a woman, you sort of open yourself 321 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 1: up to either being called terrible things or being solicited 322 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:54,639 Speaker 1: for sex. Yeah, so you basically your option is to 323 00:18:55,440 --> 00:19:00,240 Speaker 1: speak and get abused or remain silent. Yeah, and Tank said, 324 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:02,880 Speaker 1: the take home message is that female players when herd 325 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:07,199 Speaker 1: aren't treated as well as their male counterparts, despite skill 326 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:11,639 Speaker 1: level wins or losses. They women aren't attracting negative comments 327 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:15,040 Speaker 1: just because they be terrible a gaming. Yeah, it's like 328 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:17,200 Speaker 1: there's there's that little sign up on the clubhouse store, 329 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:21,640 Speaker 1: no girls allowed. Yeah, unfortunate, Although I know that not 330 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:25,399 Speaker 1: all male gamers are like this. Guy, guy gamers listening, 331 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 1: I'm gonna call you guy gamers. Don't worry, I know 332 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:30,879 Speaker 1: that it's it's again. I feel like it's the loud 333 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 1: voices of this horrific minority that often get the most 334 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 1: all that they are generating all of this negative press, 335 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 1: because it's horrifying. It is kind of horrifying. So let's 336 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:45,919 Speaker 1: look a little bit more maybe into what women want 337 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:51,359 Speaker 1: in their games, aside from harassment, obviously, because this is 338 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 1: a question that ties back to our part one episode, 339 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 1: looking more at the industry of like what they're trying 340 00:19:57,160 --> 00:19:59,639 Speaker 1: trying to figure out of well aside front, we know, 341 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 1: we know the candy crush is popular, but what kind 342 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:06,720 Speaker 1: of games do women really like playing? Because if you 343 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 1: look back into the early days of gaming, the titles 344 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:15,879 Speaker 1: that were made specifically for women and girls were so 345 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 1: hilariously riddled with hearts and sparkles and pink. And there's 346 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:25,760 Speaker 1: actually a site called femicom that's calm with an M, 347 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:29,400 Speaker 1: which calls itself the Feminine Computer Museum. It's a website 348 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:33,679 Speaker 1: dedicated to archiving these quote unquote girl games from like 349 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:36,679 Speaker 1: the early eighties and nineties, and it's kind of fascinating 350 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 1: to see. I mean, these are also the days when 351 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 1: you have alone Carol Shaw or Donna Bailey at atari, 352 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 1: like the only woman like in the room. So not 353 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:50,960 Speaker 1: surprisingly that you have such kind of overtly just let's 354 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 1: play house. You have to do the dishes for twenty 355 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:57,240 Speaker 1: points kind of games coming up. Kristen accepts that challenge. 356 00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:00,200 Speaker 1: She will organize the dishwasher. I will I would win 357 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:05,119 Speaker 1: that game, would but I mean, yeah, the museum founder, 358 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 1: I guess we'll call her, basically said that she's preserving 359 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:11,879 Speaker 1: these games to spark conversations, not necessarily preserving them because 360 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:15,520 Speaker 1: they are so awesome, but preserving them because nobody's playing 361 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:17,920 Speaker 1: them anymore and nobody's talking about them. They're not talking 362 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:20,159 Speaker 1: about them the way you would like duck Hunt, Like 363 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 1: everybody has a duck Hunt memory of standing up against 364 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:24,679 Speaker 1: the TV with the gun even though you're not supposed to. 365 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:28,880 Speaker 1: But nobody has those collective memories of these quote unquote 366 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 1: girly games. And so she is working to preserve them 367 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 1: just so that we can take a look at why 368 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:37,479 Speaker 1: we do the things we do, why we look at 369 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 1: certain games the way we do. Yeah, And and she 370 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 1: pointed out how girly video games are rarely advertised, reviewed 371 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:49,120 Speaker 1: or written up, and rarely demoed in stores. And she says, 372 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:51,879 Speaker 1: even if it's a huge seller, like the more recent 373 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 1: game Style Savvy for Nintendo d S, which I mean 374 00:21:55,720 --> 00:22:00,399 Speaker 1: Style Savvy, come on, hardcore gamers roll their eyes. But 375 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:04,160 Speaker 1: it's a big seller. And yet it's kind of like 376 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:07,720 Speaker 1: um with fandom in general. A lot of times, girly 377 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 1: fandom is sort of relegated to the corner, just like 378 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 1: Go Go Away, hearts and Polka dots. No, no, you 379 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:15,399 Speaker 1: over here. There's a little pink corner over here. So 380 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:17,879 Speaker 1: behind that line, I picture like the Lego movie, Like 381 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 1: there's all these little universes, different universes for different videos. 382 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 1: Polka dot, polka dots. You go over there, and they're 383 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 1: all like sad polka dot. But the fact of the 384 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 1: matter is, don't don't worry women gamers listening. We're not 385 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:34,480 Speaker 1: suggesting that Style Savvy is what women want in video games. 386 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:37,960 Speaker 1: We're also not suggesting the Candy Crush or Halo or 387 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:40,880 Speaker 1: Grand Theft Auto or whatever games. You know what people 388 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:46,920 Speaker 1: are realizing, Caroline, women want different things. We don't all 389 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:50,560 Speaker 1: want the same kind of game. Weird women are different 390 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 1: then each other. That's what you're That's what you're saying. 391 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 1: Women are different from each other. Yeah, you and me. 392 00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 1: We might even want to play different games. I want 393 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:00,400 Speaker 1: to load, I want to play the dishwak your game. 394 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 1: Maybe you want to play Prince of Persia, build the 395 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 1: Sandwich game. Yeah, this is coming from Kevin Kelly over 396 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:08,720 Speaker 1: at joystick dot com. He was talking about how women 397 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 1: do like story driven games. We do appreciate in game tutorials, 398 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:17,160 Speaker 1: because honestly, who reads manuals or even like instruction manuals 399 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:19,880 Speaker 1: when you're putting together an Ikea shelf? Like nobody reads 400 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:23,919 Speaker 1: these things. Um. But but the point is just making 401 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:28,200 Speaker 1: women aware of more games, you know, letting them know that, hey, 402 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,119 Speaker 1: they might also like Halo as well. But it's a 403 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 1: matter of not advertising it to everyone across the board 404 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 1: with just some busty, sexy sexpot on the cover. You know. 405 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:43,240 Speaker 1: Keep in mind that your audience is very diverse. Yeah, 406 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 1: I mean, there is market research that does suggest that 407 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 1: certain themes, like games that are more story driven or 408 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:54,359 Speaker 1: sort of a more communication based the sims, for instance, 409 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 1: massively popular among women. Maybe games that might be a 410 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:02,639 Speaker 1: little more emotionally evocative tend to appeal more to women. 411 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:07,800 Speaker 1: But don't get pigeonholes in just trying to remake those 412 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:11,440 Speaker 1: games over and over again. Rather, you know, consider all 413 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,920 Speaker 1: of these women who are also really loving to frag 414 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:18,239 Speaker 1: people and see, hey, maybe we can, maybe we can 415 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 1: put a female protagonist in there. Put put a gun 416 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,200 Speaker 1: in the hands of a woman, shall we? Video game 417 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 1: wise video games? Well, we are going to talk about 418 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 1: women in video games, the female protagonist of video games, 419 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:33,680 Speaker 1: and and how telling their roles are. When we come 420 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:38,359 Speaker 1: right back from the quick break. Well, since Caroline and 421 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 1: I are all about folks learning and using new skills, 422 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:46,359 Speaker 1: Linda dot com offers thousands of engaging and easy to 423 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:50,640 Speaker 1: follow video tutorials taught by industry experts to help you, yes, 424 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:55,439 Speaker 1: you learn software, creative and business skills. Membership starts at 425 00:24:56,240 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 1: a month and provides unlimited seven access, and with Linda 426 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:02,640 Speaker 1: dot com, you can learn at your own pace from 427 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:07,160 Speaker 1: bite sized tutorials or comprehensive courses and things like web design, programming, 428 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 1: and photography. And you fair listeners can try Linda dot 429 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:15,640 Speaker 1: com free for seven days by visiting Linda dot com 430 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:19,679 Speaker 1: slash mom stuff That's Linda dot Com slash mom stuff, 431 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 1: so they know we sent you. And now back to 432 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:26,160 Speaker 1: the show. So when we left off, we had established 433 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 1: that while market research has suggested that there are certain 434 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 1: types of games that women like, surprise, surprise, women like 435 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 1: different kinds of things, And yet if you look at 436 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: the legacy of female characters in especially like big name 437 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:46,400 Speaker 1: video games, they start to fall into very predictable types 438 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:50,440 Speaker 1: of roles. So, for instance, in the late eighties, this 439 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 1: game called Metroid came out, and I'm sure a lot 440 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 1: of people have played Metroid, and it features this character, 441 00:25:56,000 --> 00:26:00,640 Speaker 1: Sammy's female character, and for all of the game she's 442 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:05,960 Speaker 1: wearing kind of this genderless robotic exo skeleton. But then 443 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:08,399 Speaker 1: and it's like super cool because you can like play 444 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 1: Sammy's and she's doing all sorts of cool stuff. But 445 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:16,040 Speaker 1: then when you win the game, the exo skeleton is 446 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 1: taken off to reveal her bikini body. Yeah, and and 447 00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 1: an article about this had a really really important point 448 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,639 Speaker 1: about this, which is that as you're playing the game, 449 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 1: that robot exo skeleton character, that is you, you were 450 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:34,440 Speaker 1: the hero and you were shooting. But once you win 451 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:38,399 Speaker 1: and the robots suit is removed and you see a 452 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:43,080 Speaker 1: bikini clad woman, then that character isn't you anymore. It's 453 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 1: just a passive object that you get to you get 454 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 1: rewarded with. Yeah. Yeah, And they found we'll get into 455 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:51,480 Speaker 1: this a little bit more. But speaking of that sort 456 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 1: of the role playing that happens within video games, there 457 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 1: is a type of self objectification that happens just by 458 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 1: virtue of playing a character, like you take on the 459 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 1: role of that character, and when you see that character 460 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:09,360 Speaker 1: then stripped down to reveal a busty bikini body, studies 461 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 1: have shown that it makes us think about our own 462 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 1: bikini bodies, and usually more negative ways. And so there 463 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 1: was a two thousand nine study essentially that took a 464 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,920 Speaker 1: census of video games and it found that not surprisingly, 465 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 1: male characters not only outnumber women in video games, but 466 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:32,280 Speaker 1: also female characters are overwhelmingly stereotypical and sexualized. Even the 467 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:37,440 Speaker 1: case of a potentially really cool character like Sammu's now 468 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,119 Speaker 1: that's people are probably but Kristen, that happened in like 469 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:42,679 Speaker 1: the eighties. That was like the eighties. Things have like 470 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:46,879 Speaker 1: totally changed, right, No, what who are these fictional people 471 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 1: that you're referencing, Kristen guy gamers? Yeah, No, things are 472 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,520 Speaker 1: not better. And someone who has done a ton of 473 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:57,920 Speaker 1: research to dig into these kinds of tropes is one 474 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:01,200 Speaker 1: Anita Sarkasian, who made quite a name for herself in 475 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 1: the video game industry, for she had done a Tropes 476 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 1: Versus Women's series for a while, just looking at the 477 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:11,240 Speaker 1: portrayals of women in pop culture, and she decided that 478 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 1: she wanted to really dig into the video game industry 479 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:19,120 Speaker 1: because it is such uh massively popular and growing form 480 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:23,159 Speaker 1: of entertainment for people, and she began. She had a 481 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,920 Speaker 1: Kickstarter campaign, and essentially she got cyber mopped by a 482 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:29,440 Speaker 1: lot of people who are not happy about someone wanting 483 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 1: to talk about video games from a feminist perspective, essentially 484 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,000 Speaker 1: kind of taking a deeper look at like, well, what 485 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 1: how do these video games portray women? And the good 486 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:47,960 Speaker 1: news is her Kickstarter massively exceeded expectations because she received 487 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:52,120 Speaker 1: such an onslaught of cyber attacks from people. She publicized 488 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,960 Speaker 1: and people then rushed to her aid um, and she's 489 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 1: still I mean, if you google her name, especially if 490 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:00,480 Speaker 1: you look her up in you you if you find 491 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:02,880 Speaker 1: her videos, but you also find so many videos that 492 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 1: people trying to discredit her. So I feel like we 493 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 1: need to give a little context to who Anita Sarkisian is, 494 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 1: because if you are a gamer, you've probably heard of her, 495 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 1: and there's a good chance that it isn't in a 496 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:16,840 Speaker 1: good light. But I will tell you I have watched 497 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 1: her videos. She does a great job of offering a 498 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:25,280 Speaker 1: comprehensive and non threatening look at women in games while 499 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:27,880 Speaker 1: admitting that she still enjoys these games. She's not saying 500 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:31,120 Speaker 1: burn video games to the ground, but it's worthwhile to 501 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:34,960 Speaker 1: look into how women are portrayed, because she explained this 502 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 1: so well in an interview with I g N, saying, 503 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:40,360 Speaker 1: think of it this way. If gaming is the air 504 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 1: we all breathe. Right now, the air quality is currently 505 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 1: extremely polluted with thick clouds of toxic sexism, with radioactive 506 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:52,240 Speaker 1: particles of misogyny floating around everywhere. Sounds terrifying, right, Well, 507 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 1: that's society, hello. And of course that's not to say 508 00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:58,160 Speaker 1: and and christ and I are trying to drive home 509 00:29:58,160 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 1: that it's not everybody, it's not all the time and 510 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 1: not everywhere. But there are a lot of tropes in 511 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,440 Speaker 1: these games that are worth talking about, even if you 512 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:09,440 Speaker 1: do like playing them. And we're not saying you shouldn't 513 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 1: play them. We are, And so I think Sarkisian is 514 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:14,600 Speaker 1: pleading for a little bit of media savvy, to just 515 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 1: be kind of aware of what you're looking at when 516 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 1: you're looking at it. And anyway, one of the tropes 517 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 1: that she focuses hard on is the whole damsel in distress. 518 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 1: What harm could a damsel in distress possibly have? But 519 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 1: you know, a lot of these in your face things 520 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 1: that we see over and over again tend to drive 521 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 1: home stereotypes about women and the way we think about women. 522 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 1: But anyway, before we get into that, what is this trope? Basically, Uh, 523 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 1: it's princesses, wives, girlfriends, basically women in these games who 524 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 1: often end up kidnapped or somehow frozen and disempowered, or 525 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,440 Speaker 1: they're put under a spell, or they're frozen in a crystal. 526 00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:59,200 Speaker 1: Basically they're trapped somehow. Yeah, and by trapping the women, 527 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 1: it gives the male hero some kind of incentive to 528 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 1: go through this journey. And hey, you know what, I 529 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:08,960 Speaker 1: love Super Mario Brothers. Princess Peach what a gal. She's great, 530 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:13,120 Speaker 1: but she's kind of the quintessential damsel in distress. Um. 531 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 1: And but this started even before Super Mario Brothers with 532 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:19,960 Speaker 1: Donkey Kong and Pauline also known as the Lady and Pauline, 533 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:23,360 Speaker 1: who was a damsel in distress and Donkey Kong was 534 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 1: actually kind of the model for Princess Peach and Peaches 535 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 1: kidnapped for instance in thirteen out of the fourteen Mario 536 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,360 Speaker 1: games she's featured in, and she's only a playable character 537 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,000 Speaker 1: and Super Mario Brothers too, which came out in nine 538 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 1: um And she also talks about how you see the 539 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:45,880 Speaker 1: same kind of thing in Zelda named for the damsel 540 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 1: in distress, and she's really Zelda has never really been 541 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 1: to star in her own adventure. Isn't Isn't that a 542 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,680 Speaker 1: sad metaphor? It is it really is, Ladies, let's not 543 00:31:54,720 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 1: be Zelda's Sarkisian points out how she does sometimes get 544 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,560 Speaker 1: more active roles, she becomes more of a helpful damsel 545 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 1: at times, but she always ends up at least getting 546 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,760 Speaker 1: re kidnapped. She has to be saved at some point, 547 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,200 Speaker 1: and she says this exists and pretty much any type 548 00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:26,040 Speaker 1: of game, whether you're looking at first person shooters, RPGs, MMOs, 549 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:31,520 Speaker 1: like you're gonna find damsels in distress everywhere and even 550 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:37,000 Speaker 1: when you have a heroic archetype of the hero being imprisoned, 551 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:39,280 Speaker 1: a lot of times the way that hero will escape 552 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 1: is through his own strength and cunning huzzah. And this 553 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:46,000 Speaker 1: poor freaking damsel like so, not only is she like 554 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 1: imprisoned in a castle or she's trapped or tied up 555 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 1: or whatever, she also is the victim of pretty horrific 556 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,800 Speaker 1: violence and all these different kinds of video games. She 557 00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:00,120 Speaker 1: tends to be basically a disposable woman who falls victim 558 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 1: to any number of horrific violent acts. So Sarcasian takes 559 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 1: through all of these different game titles about how they 560 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 1: follow similar paths of for instance, the hero's wife being 561 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,880 Speaker 1: brutally murdered and then you have to rescue the daughter. 562 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:18,680 Speaker 1: That happens over and over and over again. Or you 563 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,200 Speaker 1: have a wife or girlfriend's soul being trapped in hell 564 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:23,800 Speaker 1: and so then you know the hero has to travel 565 00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 1: to try to like save the soul. And then you 566 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 1: might also have damsels who martyr themselves that will then 567 00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:34,560 Speaker 1: propel the hero on his journey. Sometimes also you have 568 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:39,240 Speaker 1: games that force the hero to brutally kill the wife 569 00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:42,600 Speaker 1: or girlfriend either because it turns out done da dada, 570 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:45,280 Speaker 1: she was a villain the whole time, or that's like 571 00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:49,400 Speaker 1: the only way that you can win the game. Violence 572 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:52,680 Speaker 1: against women solves everything according to these games, right basically, 573 00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:54,400 Speaker 1: I mean it's sort of the way that these a 574 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 1: lot of these games work, is it sort of forces 575 00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 1: you into, you know, having one sole suan, which is 576 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 1: beating up, killing, stabbing, shooting, strangling, whatever it will take 577 00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:09,960 Speaker 1: to kill these women. And that's that's not so good 578 00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:13,880 Speaker 1: Caroline now. And and you know, you could be wondering, well, 579 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:15,839 Speaker 1: what does this have to do with anything as far 580 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,760 Speaker 1: as real life goes? Why do we care about violence 581 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,160 Speaker 1: and video games? Haven't there been studies showing that it 582 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:25,439 Speaker 1: doesn't make us a more violent culture. Well, actually, unlike 583 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:29,120 Speaker 1: needless violence against women and all these games actually does 584 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,400 Speaker 1: have quite a big impact. Yeah. Why. Yen Tang, who's 585 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:36,920 Speaker 1: one of those Ohio University researchers we mentioned earlier, said quote, 586 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:39,800 Speaker 1: the general gist of sexual content in video games is 587 00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:43,279 Speaker 1: that exposure to such content leads to attitudes that are 588 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,960 Speaker 1: unfavorable toward women. And you see this reflected in so 589 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,320 Speaker 1: many studies. For instance, the two thousand and twelve study 590 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:53,400 Speaker 1: found that a video game depicting sexual objectification of women 591 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:58,240 Speaker 1: and violence against women resulted in statistically significant increase rape 592 00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:01,840 Speaker 1: myth acceptance a sentence really sort of rape supportive attitudes, 593 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:06,439 Speaker 1: the whole idea of like, you know, women asking for it, essential, etcetera. Um. 594 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:10,440 Speaker 1: And that was more prevalent among male study participants, but 595 00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:13,319 Speaker 1: not for female participants. But that's not to say that 596 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:17,560 Speaker 1: these kinds of video games that sexually objectify women don't 597 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:23,160 Speaker 1: have negative impacts on female players, right. Yeah, Stanford study 598 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:27,320 Speaker 1: found that women who played with a sexualized avatar, whether 599 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:31,399 Speaker 1: it was basically with her face on it or with 600 00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:36,720 Speaker 1: another woman's face, engaged in more self objectification and bought 601 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,560 Speaker 1: into rape myths more. Yeah. You see this theme of 602 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:44,080 Speaker 1: increased rape myth acceptance a lot in these studies. Um. 603 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:46,560 Speaker 1: Also in two thousand nine, there was a study that 604 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:51,600 Speaker 1: came out which found stereotype confirming virtual women correlated to 605 00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:55,880 Speaker 1: higher levels of sexism and again rape myth acceptance in 606 00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:58,560 Speaker 1: male and female players. And we could go on and 607 00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:00,239 Speaker 1: on and on. There are a number of study He's 608 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:04,799 Speaker 1: finding over and over again that hey, when we basically 609 00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:10,080 Speaker 1: use women, highly sexualized women in video games as props 610 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:14,000 Speaker 1: upon which to inflict violence or rape. There are you 611 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:17,759 Speaker 1: know there there's the infamous rape UH scene in Grand 612 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:21,120 Speaker 1: Theft Auto. There's also a rape scene I believe in 613 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:23,080 Speaker 1: I don't know if it was in the game or 614 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:28,200 Speaker 1: just in promotion for uh tomb Rader addition that came out, 615 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:33,080 Speaker 1: and basically it's like, no, we don't because we're playing. 616 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:36,200 Speaker 1: It's different. I feel like it's different from sexual assault 617 00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:38,320 Speaker 1: being portrayed in movies and television in a way because 618 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:42,319 Speaker 1: it's almost more engaging because you're playing those characters, right. 619 00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:46,560 Speaker 1: And I feel like when rape and sexual assault are 620 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:52,000 Speaker 1: depicted in movies and TV shows, it's always a bad thing. 621 00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:54,920 Speaker 1: It's always like a crime and a negative thing that 622 00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:58,200 Speaker 1: needs to be solved. Whereas if you're the first person 623 00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:02,680 Speaker 1: player in a video game that evolves rape and sexualizing women, 624 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:07,200 Speaker 1: objectifying women, it's there's there's nothing necessarily telling you it's wrong. Yeah, 625 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,880 Speaker 1: it's fodder for your heroism, and and that can have 626 00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:13,640 Speaker 1: negative impacts on male and female players, and the solution 627 00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:17,399 Speaker 1: isn't yet. Again, it's not a call to get rid 628 00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:22,399 Speaker 1: of video games, but rather to ask for better raise 629 00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:24,840 Speaker 1: the bar. I mean, you can have you can you 630 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:27,680 Speaker 1: can shoot up as many things as you want to 631 00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:31,759 Speaker 1: in games. This isn't us railing against gun violence and 632 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:37,080 Speaker 1: video games, but rather, like you said, you know, Sarkisian 633 00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:39,480 Speaker 1: kind of requesting a little bit of media savvy. It's 634 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,520 Speaker 1: important to pay attention to what we're consuming and yeah, 635 00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:44,880 Speaker 1: and not do away with, like you said, shoot him 636 00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:48,880 Speaker 1: up games or whatever, but just offer more and different 637 00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:53,439 Speaker 1: things like left Behind, which has garnered incredible praise. People 638 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:55,080 Speaker 1: are coming out of the woodwork to be like, oh 639 00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:57,800 Speaker 1: my god, this game is amazing a change in my life. 640 00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:03,000 Speaker 1: It features a fourteen year old old girl protagonist, Yeah, 641 00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:06,880 Speaker 1: and she also interacts with her best friend Riley, but 642 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:10,840 Speaker 1: she still has to do a lot of really tough things. 643 00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:15,160 Speaker 1: And Laura Hudson wrote about left Behind recently in Wired 644 00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:18,360 Speaker 1: magazine and it was headlined something along the lines of 645 00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:21,319 Speaker 1: left Behind was the first video game that really made 646 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:24,799 Speaker 1: me feel like proud to be a woman, and she writes, 647 00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:27,640 Speaker 1: we don't just need more women in video games, we 648 00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:30,960 Speaker 1: need more women who don't fit in boxes. And she 649 00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:34,160 Speaker 1: talks about how left Behind isn't remarkable just because it 650 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:37,479 Speaker 1: meets a quota, but because Ellie and her best friend 651 00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:41,040 Speaker 1: Riley are people. They're fully realized. They're quirky, they're funny, 652 00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:44,160 Speaker 1: and they're dangerous. And she says that Ellie is there 653 00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:47,839 Speaker 1: because she's herself, and for once, that's reason enough. She's 654 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:51,400 Speaker 1: not there to just titillate and motivate. Players are like, oh, 655 00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:56,560 Speaker 1: you know, Ellie's been beaten, so go go kill somebody. 656 00:38:57,040 --> 00:39:01,279 Speaker 1: It's all about her. And like we said in episode 657 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:04,520 Speaker 1: number one, uh, Call of Duty. Ghosts, for instance, is 658 00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:08,440 Speaker 1: going to have a female playable character in its multiplayer component. Yeah. 659 00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:13,080 Speaker 1: BioWare's Mass Effect three has implemented changes that allow for 660 00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:16,600 Speaker 1: gay romance. I mean, diversity beyond just women is something 661 00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:19,359 Speaker 1: that we didn't even have time to talk about in 662 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:24,440 Speaker 1: a two part series on video games. Um So, LGBT 663 00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:28,479 Speaker 1: acceptance and visibility in games is something too that needs 664 00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:31,279 Speaker 1: to be strongly addressed. Me. A lot of what we 665 00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:35,080 Speaker 1: see is is very headeronormative violence against women. Are just 666 00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:39,399 Speaker 1: headteronormative romances, and it's like, hey, uh, I'm over here, 667 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:43,880 Speaker 1: I'm an LGBT player. I exist too, And not to 668 00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:49,080 Speaker 1: mention two racial diversity as well, overwhelmingly male or female, 669 00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:51,359 Speaker 1: the protagonists are going to be white. A lot of 670 00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:55,960 Speaker 1: the industry itself is very white. Um, so there's a 671 00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:59,360 Speaker 1: lot of room for improvement. And the thing is, a 672 00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:02,080 Speaker 1: lot of gamers sometimes get up in arms about the 673 00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:04,480 Speaker 1: possibility of changes. You get attached to a game, you 674 00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:06,279 Speaker 1: love a game, if you're spending, like if you're a 675 00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:09,160 Speaker 1: hardcore gamer nineteen plus hours a week with a game, 676 00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:13,040 Speaker 1: it's understandable that you might be a little resistant to change. 677 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:17,080 Speaker 1: But it's only going to make things better, yeah, you know, 678 00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:19,480 Speaker 1: And it's going to make things better for you know, 679 00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:22,080 Speaker 1: not just the games, but for the people who play 680 00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:25,680 Speaker 1: them as well. And shouldn't that be the the ultimate goal? No? 681 00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:28,520 Speaker 1: Not for no. People want to people want to just 682 00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:32,600 Speaker 1: shoot things on a screen, right, Yeah? Is that's what 683 00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:36,000 Speaker 1: it is? Crush candies. I don't know the answer, Caroline. 684 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:38,759 Speaker 1: This is this is why I really want to hear 685 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:42,239 Speaker 1: from listeners on this issue. What is it like to 686 00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,640 Speaker 1: be a gamer, especially if you are a woman out there? 687 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:47,080 Speaker 1: I mean, do you deal with issues of having to 688 00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:51,400 Speaker 1: prove your credibility? Um? Are you harassed or are you 689 00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:53,680 Speaker 1: immune to all of this stuff? Do you find this 690 00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:56,319 Speaker 1: kind of these kinds of issues sensationalized? We want to 691 00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:58,960 Speaker 1: hear from everybody. What are your thoughts on this mom 692 00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:01,040 Speaker 1: Stuff a Discovery dot com is where you can email 693 00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:04,320 Speaker 1: us or you can tweet us at Mom's Stuff podcast, 694 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:06,359 Speaker 1: and we've got a couple of messages to share with 695 00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:12,719 Speaker 1: you right now. Well, I've got a message here from 696 00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:17,920 Speaker 1: Christopher about our men scaping episode, and he said, I'd 697 00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:20,000 Speaker 1: like to make a statement of opposition in regard to 698 00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:23,520 Speaker 1: your comments about male body hair still being socially acceptable 699 00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:25,640 Speaker 1: in the US. As a twenty two year old guy 700 00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:28,719 Speaker 1: with body hair, I get ridiculed and laughed at on 701 00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:32,560 Speaker 1: a nearly daily basis by my peers and coworkers, and 702 00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:35,640 Speaker 1: I'm often told that if I want to get a girlfriend, quote, 703 00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:39,680 Speaker 1: you need to not be an abominable snowman bro. Maybe 704 00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:41,920 Speaker 1: this is just East Coast college town culture, but my 705 00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:45,400 Speaker 1: experience here and in Houston were about the same. As 706 00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:47,640 Speaker 1: a side note, I've tried manscaping in the past, both 707 00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:50,440 Speaker 1: with near and traditional methods, but removing all that hair 708 00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:53,439 Speaker 1: is an arduous task that rewards me with ingrown hair 709 00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:56,360 Speaker 1: and the sensation of sand paper taped to the backside 710 00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:58,640 Speaker 1: of all my shirts. I can only hope that I 711 00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:01,439 Speaker 1: find a lady who doesn't mind my body here, if 712 00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:06,840 Speaker 1: any exists, and Christopher, they absolutely exist. Yeah, I'm pointing 713 00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:09,680 Speaker 1: at myself right here, because my question to you about 714 00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:12,480 Speaker 1: these people who are like trying to humiliate you, are 715 00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:16,080 Speaker 1: they all dudes, because there are plenty of ladies out 716 00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:19,800 Speaker 1: there who don't mind it or do like it. My 717 00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:24,080 Speaker 1: my gentleman caller does have quite a bit of hair 718 00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:31,280 Speaker 1: in places, and he's very handsome. Yeah. Yeah, I say, 719 00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:34,839 Speaker 1: don't don't listen. Don't listen to the hair haters. And 720 00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:36,640 Speaker 1: this is also an example too of why we wanted 721 00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:40,600 Speaker 1: to talk about this issue, because you're experiencing the same 722 00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:42,880 Speaker 1: and so many other guys i'm sure are experiencing the 723 00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:45,400 Speaker 1: same kind of body hair shame that has usually just 724 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:49,640 Speaker 1: been targeted on women. But Christopher, don't worry. There are 725 00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:52,799 Speaker 1: plenty of women who don't mind and might even like 726 00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:55,239 Speaker 1: a hairy bag. Yeah, Because if you're getting a bunch 727 00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:58,040 Speaker 1: of that flak from fellow dudes, all that means is 728 00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:00,880 Speaker 1: that they're buying into the junk that like those men's 729 00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:05,720 Speaker 1: magazines are selling them, and they're probably voicing some insecurity. Okay, 730 00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:07,840 Speaker 1: I have a letter here from es may Um also 731 00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:11,359 Speaker 1: about our grooming episode. She says, for as long as 732 00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:13,239 Speaker 1: I can remember. As a woman, I have been very 733 00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:16,160 Speaker 1: aware of this expectation to remove almost all body hair, 734 00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:18,960 Speaker 1: and personally, it's never really sat right with me. I 735 00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:21,239 Speaker 1: was brought up with role models like Patty Smith, who 736 00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:23,040 Speaker 1: not only grew out their body hair, but we're not 737 00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:25,760 Speaker 1: afraid to show it off. The cover to Patti Smith's 738 00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:28,880 Speaker 1: album Easter is a perfect example of this. But as 739 00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:31,040 Speaker 1: a woman in her early to mid twenties, I've never 740 00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:33,920 Speaker 1: come across someone who shares the beauty in body hair. 741 00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:36,840 Speaker 1: I'm more than happy with every other aspect of my body, 742 00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:39,600 Speaker 1: but hate having to shave for other people. I found 743 00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:41,839 Speaker 1: it interesting when you spoke of the anxiety that some 744 00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:44,040 Speaker 1: men and women feel when not shaving, and I think 745 00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:46,799 Speaker 1: I feel the opposite. I prefer how I look when 746 00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:48,920 Speaker 1: I let my body do its thing, and I wish 747 00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:52,759 Speaker 1: that wasn't seen as such a disgusting choice. So thank you, 748 00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:54,680 Speaker 1: es May, and thank you for sending that picture of 749 00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:58,279 Speaker 1: Patti Smith's cover, and thanks to everybody who's written into us. 750 00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:00,600 Speaker 1: Mom Stuff at Discovery dot Com is where you can 751 00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:03,040 Speaker 1: send your emails. If you want to reach out to 752 00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:07,319 Speaker 1: us on social media, check out this podcast with all 753 00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:10,719 Speaker 1: the links to all of our sources, watch our videos, 754 00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:13,759 Speaker 1: read our blogs. There's one place to go and that 755 00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:19,920 Speaker 1: stuff I've never told you. Dot com for more on 756 00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:22,760 Speaker 1: this and thousands of other topics. Does it How stuff works? 757 00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:31,320 Speaker 1: Dot Com