Speaker 1: On the night of March twenty fourth, nineteen ninety, Felix
Speaker 1: Costo Rico was walking down an alley in San Francisco's
Speaker 1: Mission District. Witnesses saw a man get out of a
Speaker 1: white money Carlo and confront Felix, and the two started argument. Suddenly,
Speaker 1: a shot rang out and Felix fell to the ground dead.
Speaker 1: The shooter jumped back into the car and sped away
Speaker 1: with another man at the wheel. By the next morning,
Speaker 1: rumors were flying around the streets that the shooter was
Speaker 1: a lifelong friend of Felix's, Joaquin Syria. They had grown
Speaker 1: up together in Cuba. Word was that the two were
Speaker 1: in a dispute over money. Joaquin had been out earlier
Speaker 1: that evening with a friend who drove a white money Carlo,
Speaker 1: but he claimed to be home with his wife and
Speaker 1: baby son for the night by the time the crime
Speaker 1: was committed. After viewing several lineups that included Joaquin's picture,
Speaker 1: two eyewitnesses id'd him as the man they seen. One
Speaker 1: witness claimed that she was eighty percent certain and that
Speaker 1: was close enough for the jury. But this is wrongful conviction.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to wrongful conviction. I'm Mariline Woods, co creator
Speaker 1: and co hosts of the Ear Hustle podcast, guest hosting
Speaker 1: for Jason Flummer Day, and I gotta tell you I
Speaker 1: served over twenty seven years in prison, and I used
Speaker 1: to always think about the people who were in here
Speaker 1: that were actually innocent, you know, dealing with the day
Speaker 1: to day grinding rigor of prison life. And that brings
Speaker 1: us to our guest today, Joaquin Sarah, Joaquin, Welcome to
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction.
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you, cool cool.
Speaker 1: And here to help tell Joaquin's story is Paige Knap.
Speaker 1: She's the supervising attorney at the Northern California Innocent Project. Paige,
Speaker 1: thanks for being here.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I am super excited to meet you, Arline. I'm
Speaker 3: super happy to be with you. Morningquin.
Speaker 1: Joaquin, Can you tell me, like, since you from Cuba,
Speaker 1: what was your life like growing up.
Speaker 2: Growing now in Quwow? It was beautiful. It was beautiful,
Speaker 2: you know for me to be a child growing now
Speaker 2: in my country. You know, sorain them my family friend
Speaker 2: and kill what you do a lot of teams you
Speaker 2: know that you're not able to do in this country.
Speaker 4: You know, I remember you know that in kill what
Speaker 4: we who to play?
Speaker 2: You know in the three to one o'cloud two okline
Speaker 2: the morning and it was no danger. Everybody know everybody,
Speaker 2: you know, because it's an island. I had a royal
Speaker 2: beautiful shaohoo.
Speaker 1: Got you, got you, got you. So when you was
Speaker 1: a youngster, the US and Cuba was beefing. You know,
Speaker 1: they have a pretty fraud history, you know, the missile crisis,
Speaker 1: the Communist revolt and bargoes. Not really a free flowing dialogue.
Speaker 1: So I'm just curious, like, what were your impressions of
Speaker 1: the United States back thing.
Speaker 2: Well, let me let me tell you this. Everybody cu
Speaker 2: what the majority we grow out believing everything that we're
Speaker 2: watching the TV about the United States. We really believe
Speaker 2: that Superman really exists. Anything that you go out from
Speaker 2: United States, we really believe that. Brother, you know, you
Speaker 2: know in we watch so brainwatched, you know that when
Speaker 2: we're watching movie A Superman won the Woman.
Speaker 4: We really believe.
Speaker 2: That these type of people exist in the United States.
Speaker 4: You know, unbelievable. So this see how I grow.
Speaker 1: Out and and and and Joaquin, you knew the victim
Speaker 1: in this case, Phyllis Bastar Rica. When you were a
Speaker 1: kid back in Cuba.
Speaker 2: You know, a Phyllis. We all call hi calitles. He
Speaker 2: was close to my neighborhood, so mini mini minie time.
Speaker 2: We who to skate from the school to go swimming
Speaker 2: in the ocean.
Speaker 4: You know, go go eve some.
Speaker 2: Mango sugar cane. Everybody liked to be around Philly. You know,
Speaker 2: if you go into a party, you want him to
Speaker 2: be there. He was only laughing all the time, making
Speaker 2: a lot of joke. Definitely, he was a good friend, right.
Speaker 1: And I'm just curious. Did you come from like a
Speaker 1: political family over in Cuba.
Speaker 2: My father he was a revolutionary, you know, he was
Speaker 2: a Commonist. He fight with the Gostro you see, with
Speaker 2: the gost got the power way. My father was a
Speaker 2: part of that. Yeah, the majority of my family they
Speaker 2: really believe, you know, in the Commonies. And it was
Speaker 2: problem in the house, you know, because we all got
Speaker 2: different views. Since my ely age, I got really really
Speaker 2: big trouble to fit in the Commonist party. I got
Speaker 2: trouble with that. So you know, at the age of eighteen,
Speaker 2: I was called to be in the army. I was
Speaker 2: in high school at that time, but they don't care.
Speaker 2: That was a man that told it called you know
Speaker 2: a lot of young people escape because we don't want
Speaker 2: to do that, you know, to go fight to some
Speaker 2: other country, like a lot of joints in Cuba, they
Speaker 2: were saying to Angola to fight a lot of all
Speaker 2: these young people got killed, you know, so may and
Speaker 2: I say, oh, I don't want to do that. So
Speaker 2: when I was called to be in the army, I
Speaker 2: remember that I was there maybe for about sismon and
Speaker 2: I escape.
Speaker 4: A lot of Johns say do that.
Speaker 2: After I escape, I go to my fatherly house and
Speaker 2: I spend some time with my family. Into my father come,
Speaker 2: I'm told me, and he said, you know what, walking,
Speaker 2: I don't want no trouble with the government.
Speaker 4: You have to give it, you say, do the right thing,
Speaker 4: you know.
Speaker 2: And and I respect my family, you know, I love
Speaker 2: my father so most that they see how I end.
Speaker 2: And you know, in prison, you know in Cuba, it's
Speaker 2: not like right here, you know, right here out waiting
Speaker 2: something hoppy to your yoka crying right in two or
Speaker 2: three days they take.
Speaker 4: You to court your due process.
Speaker 2: Yeah, in kill white diffity in Cilbai, they directed you,
Speaker 2: Yeah you can be out there for one through three four. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I do never go to court. Yeah, they see how
Speaker 2: it is in Kiwa Damn.
Speaker 1: So in May of nineteen eighty, after spending some time
Speaker 1: in prison, you fled Cuba as a part of the
Speaker 1: Mario Boat left, which from my understanding was a mass
Speaker 1: migration of around one hundred and twenty five thousand Cubans
Speaker 1: that was sanctioned by both Jimmy Carter and Fidale Castro.
Speaker 1: You were still a teenager at that time, right, yeah,
Speaker 1: And I want to ask you what do you remember
Speaker 1: about the boat ride from Cuba to Florida? Because I
Speaker 1: used to always see it on the news, you know,
Speaker 1: individuals on floats and stuff like that coming from Cuba.
Speaker 1: What what do you remember about that boat ride?
Speaker 2: Well, Frosseto, to be honest with you, bro, I see
Speaker 2: a lot of ball when I was in the ocean,
Speaker 2: you know, and we're talking about a ball that you
Speaker 2: might can pull twenty authority people in that ball.
Speaker 4: So what the cube?
Speaker 2: What government was doing this instead? Or pull twenty authorty people?
Speaker 2: They who to put two hundred people in the bowl?
Speaker 2: So imagining And let me tell you, mane, I see
Speaker 2: with my own eyes how a lot of boat that's appeal,
Speaker 2: you know, in the ocean. One minute that was next
Speaker 2: to us, and when I look, it's not a te
Speaker 2: an no more. It is like it is gone. So
Speaker 2: it was really, really, really it was really ugly, you know, right.
Speaker 1: So fortunately for you you got here safely and you
Speaker 1: landed in Key West, Florida. Can you tell me what
Speaker 1: your feelings were when you first read the United States?
Speaker 2: At that moment, I feel, you know, I watched Happy. Yeah, yes,
Speaker 2: I will hoppy completely. You know that I fleck. I
Speaker 2: watched Happy. You know that I mean United State. That
Speaker 2: I don't have to live in a field no more.
Speaker 2: I don't have to water. You know about that. I
Speaker 2: go in and they killed Bidy Govin ain't on Sonky
Speaker 2: like that.
Speaker 4: I know.
Speaker 2: I wasched in the most power with fo Komi in
Speaker 2: the war. So that moment, anything that they told me
Speaker 2: will believe it.
Speaker 1: So over the next few years, you kind of skipped
Speaker 1: around to a few different cities and you finally ended
Speaker 1: up in San Francisco living with a woman named Nellie Hernandez.
Speaker 1: Nelly was a little older than you, and she had
Speaker 1: six kids. And back then you were hanging out with
Speaker 1: a couple of your partners from Cuba. Your childhood friend
Speaker 1: Felix Costa Rica who had also made it to the US.
Speaker 1: And a guy named Robert Socorro. And there was another
Speaker 1: cat from Cuba that was a hustling name Candido ds
Speaker 1: What did you know about him?
Speaker 2: You know, Candido dias A what I know about him?
Speaker 2: You know that he's a cube one.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 2: He was living in San Francisco in the Sta Hotel,
Speaker 2: you know, in nineteen ninety. And I never think, you know,
Speaker 2: he had any type or bad feeling about me, a
Speaker 2: fat that I know. You know, we're talking sometimes and
Speaker 2: you know when you got the feeling that you don't
Speaker 2: click with the person, you know, that's the way I feel,
Speaker 2: that's the way he feel. But we never let it,
Speaker 2: you know, past to the level or having any type
Speaker 2: of problem with him.
Speaker 1: Okay, And when you was in San Francisco and me
Speaker 1: asked us, what was the San Francisco Police Department?
Speaker 2: Like, so in nineteen ninety in San Francisco Police Department,
Speaker 2: it was really really really I could root department. I
Speaker 2: already you know, listening in the three what they were doing,
Speaker 2: how they plan drag on people car you know, and
Speaker 2: and all that type of stuff. You know, of course
Speaker 2: not everybody. Not every police is doing you know, some
Speaker 2: really torig they've really got some a lot of bad apple,
Speaker 2: you know in the San Francis Complete department, my twenty four,
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety. You know, my personal life at that time
Speaker 2: it was changing, you know for the betro You know,
Speaker 2: I my baby's mama. You know, Johanna pays about almost
Speaker 2: about a jayago before my son was born. I was
Speaker 2: a happy man, you know at that time. I'm ah,
Speaker 2: my friend, Oh, my friend. What's happy with me too?
Speaker 2: You know, robto socorro he was happy if Phili they
Speaker 2: who took coming to my house. It was a happy
Speaker 2: time for me, right, you know at.
Speaker 1: That time until, of course, your good friend Felix Basto
Speaker 1: Rico was killed, which happened on the night of March
Speaker 1: twenty four of nineteen ninety. So Paige, can you can
Speaker 1: you walk us through what transpired that night?
Speaker 3: Yeah, So what we know is that Felix Pasta Rica
Speaker 3: was walking down the street with a plastic bag. We've
Speaker 3: since learned from Roberto SoCoRo that Roberto was in hidings.
Speaker 3: He had just killed someone and had asked Felix to
Speaker 3: bring him some clothes and toilet trees and stuff. So
Speaker 3: he's walking over to the bay Bridge Motel where Roberto is,
Speaker 3: and in Clara Alley, which is sort of perpendicular to
Speaker 3: the Baybridge Motel, there are people. There's a guy in
Speaker 3: a car, Kenneth stuff, and there's a woman up in
Speaker 3: the window, Kathleen Guovara, and they both hear this loud altercation,
Speaker 3: this loud argument in the alleyway, and describe these two
Speaker 3: people kind of walking back and forth interacting with each other.
Speaker 3: There's a white Monte Carlo that the guy with the
Speaker 3: gun gets out of and he shoots Felix Pastrica in
Speaker 3: the street and jumps back in the white Monte Carlo
Speaker 3: and drives off right.
Speaker 1: And that even in Joaquin, you were spending time with
Speaker 1: another friend, eighteen year old George Varilla, who was actually
Speaker 1: the son of your former girlfriend Nellie Hernandez.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, me and Joe Barrela. We who to be real
Speaker 2: close where he wasched, you know around a nine. Yeah. Oh,
Speaker 2: we who to go to the video a keda all
Speaker 2: the time we watch a DTA to play video. I'm
Speaker 2: to be honesty, I feel you know, even when I
Speaker 2: watched young I feel like he watch my son right.
Speaker 2: He gould to come to my house almost every two
Speaker 2: three days.
Speaker 1: Okay, so can you tell us like what you and
Speaker 1: you know George got into on the evening of March
Speaker 1: twenty fourth, before y'all parted ways.
Speaker 2: I remembered that nine that wasn't home with my family.
Speaker 2: You know, I expaid that, you know, to stay home.
Speaker 2: I was in May and I received a phone call
Speaker 2: from your So when I got the phone, your started
Speaker 2: told me and he said, hey, man, what you're doing?
Speaker 4: I said, man, I'm right here. You know. I spent
Speaker 4: some time with Johanna and with my son.
Speaker 1: Man.
Speaker 4: I bow, why we don't go to play video?
Speaker 2: So he conveys me and I go out with here
Speaker 2: and he come out to peep me out.
Speaker 4: It is white Monte Carlo.
Speaker 1: Oh, George Rilla drove a white money Carlo.
Speaker 4: He got a white Monte Carlo. He peeped me out.
Speaker 2: Almost around seven o'clock, we go to that CAA to
Speaker 2: play video. I remember that we got there almost around seven,
Speaker 2: saving Tody with what play video?
Speaker 4: Buado the Blue.
Speaker 2: He come out and told me and said, hey, what
Speaker 2: can't I have to go back to my house because
Speaker 2: my girlfriend she come out from Richmond. So to make
Speaker 2: this toy show, we leave.
Speaker 1: And when you left, you didn't go straight home. You
Speaker 1: enjoyed stopped by Gallon's Bar first, where a lot of
Speaker 1: Cubans and Puerto Ricans ain't got at to see if
Speaker 1: you might meet up with a friend of yours there,
Speaker 1: But instead you ran into another guy, Roberto Hernandez, who
Speaker 1: was not exactly a friend.
Speaker 2: We don't get along, you know me and he got
Speaker 2: a fire side. After I see my friend Manolo, I
Speaker 2: talking with Manolo for a little while, and after the fight,
Speaker 2: Joe Barrella take me home. I got to my house
Speaker 2: around a twenty five h a toty navid, I leave.
Speaker 4: My how a game And did you know what you
Speaker 4: was wearing that night? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's something that I never go and forget that
Speaker 2: Navy because at that time, I don't know if you
Speaker 2: remain me that a lot of young people Epecio, black
Speaker 2: people like me, we who to with that type post
Speaker 2: JACKI letter Jaki, you know that it was all colorful
Speaker 2: letter Jaki. So say command the squad, So go Wan said,
Speaker 2: how Roly so say Cobra got I don't think that
Speaker 2: I think that I even can sleep with that Jackey
Speaker 2: the how To Munch, I know, Michael Mama Squad. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and they see how I get out out of my
Speaker 2: house when yo body La piped me out.
Speaker 1: Okay, cool. So George dropped you off at around a
Speaker 1: thirty and you spent the rest of the evening at
Speaker 1: home with Johanna and your son. But by the next
Speaker 1: day there was already a rumor going around that it
Speaker 1: was you that killed Costa Rica, as you found out
Speaker 1: from your friend Manolo when you went to Gallon's bar
Speaker 1: the next.
Speaker 4: Day, Manolo and some other people wastch outside the bottom.
Speaker 2: When Manolo see me, Manolo approaching me, you know how,
Speaker 2: he said, hey, Waki, how you doing.
Speaker 4: My friend? You know, we brace and he said, man
Speaker 4: why you don't leave the city.
Speaker 2: And I look at here. I say, leady, CD, what
Speaker 2: are you talking about? Manolo?
Speaker 4: He said, Maine Calito. Last night? You know, I'm the
Speaker 4: rue noise that you beat it.
Speaker 2: And I say, hey, a stop playing like Tom made
Speaker 2: do you show? What are you talking about?
Speaker 4: He said, yeah.
Speaker 2: So when he told me now the Frost team that
Speaker 2: is coming, you know, in my mind, I just say, oh,
Speaker 2: Main's something Roman, and I just started to be afraid.
Speaker 1: And it came out later that Condido DZ was the
Speaker 1: likely instigator of that rumor. But however it got started.
Speaker 1: The two homicide detectives work in the case, Arc Gearns
Speaker 1: and James Crowley.
Speaker 3: Ran with that rumor, so Joaquin's name comes up really
Speaker 3: fast in the investigation, and from as soon as they
Speaker 3: get his name, he is the only person they ever
Speaker 3: look into. And so essentially what you can see in
Speaker 3: the police reports is the two homicide inspectors who have
Speaker 3: Joaquin as their one and only suspects, start showing his
Speaker 3: picture to the two eyewitnesses, neither of whom identify him.
Speaker 3: They ask her, well, who looks most like the shooter,
Speaker 3: and she says, well, she points to Joaquin's photo and
Speaker 3: says he looks most like the shooter, but she doesn't
Speaker 3: say it's him, and the guy in the car says
Speaker 3: he doesn't pick anybody out, but they still keep their
Speaker 3: focus entirely on Joaquin.
Speaker 1: But Joaquin didn't even match the descriptions that the two
Speaker 1: witnesses gave right, No.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so the police did get descriptions from the eyewitnesses
Speaker 3: of the shooter and the things they describe because they
Speaker 3: both sort of say they see him from a distance,
Speaker 3: kind of the silhouette. They say he's got an afro,
Speaker 3: and that he's wearing this long trench coat. And we
Speaker 3: know from independent witnesses, including the guy Joaquin got in
Speaker 3: a fight with, who you know, didn't like him and
Speaker 3: had no reason to lie for him, that Joaquin's hair
Speaker 3: is in a long Jerry curl, not in an afro,
Speaker 3: and he's wearing this short, short leather jacket and not
Speaker 3: a long trench coat. And in fact, no one had
Speaker 3: ever seen Joaquin ever in a trench coat, and he
Speaker 3: didn't even own a trench coat.
Speaker 2: You know, thank god that I just stopped at the
Speaker 2: gotta battle because you see everybody see me how I
Speaker 2: want the race, everybody, the people the same, the DeFi
Speaker 2: They've remained me how I watched the race.
Speaker 4: They've remained me that I got a Jerry krail.
Speaker 3: I mean, even when they search the house, they're never
Speaker 3: able to find anything to connect Joaquin, and and so
Speaker 3: you know, it doesn't match. He doesn't match the descriptions,
Speaker 3: and he's got an alibi. His his girlfriend and their
Speaker 3: roommate tell the police from the very beginning that he's
Speaker 3: home that night. By eight thirty.
Speaker 1: Nevertheless, Garan's and Crowdy stay focused on Joaquin as a suspect.
Speaker 1: And so at that point, Joaquin, you went to the
Speaker 1: police station on your own, correct.
Speaker 2: I cannot take a no moment. I cannot take a nomo.
Speaker 2: You watch some more rumo that I said, mag I
Speaker 2: have to go talk to with the homo side. I
Speaker 2: have to go talk to with the homo side, bolutality.
Speaker 2: I go with my loyo to speak to the homo side.
Speaker 3: About two and a half weeks after the shooting, and
Speaker 3: he tells them that he was with George Ferrella in
Speaker 3: the white Monte Carlo, and he tells them how to
Speaker 3: find George, says, I, you know, I dated it a
Speaker 3: his mother, Nellie Hernandez. They live at this address. Here's
Speaker 3: what he looks like. Here's the car he drives, I mean,
Speaker 3: basically everything they need and they pull in George Verilla
Speaker 3: and George is initially saying, well, I can tell you
Speaker 3: what happened up until the time Joaquin and I split up,
Speaker 3: and then he says he went home after and he says, well,
Speaker 3: I probably I probably went somewhere after though, and they
Speaker 3: never ask him where did you go? Instead, what they say,
Speaker 3: is we know Joaquin was the shooter. You're going to
Speaker 3: go down for this murder. He's you know, George is eighteen.
Speaker 3: They tell him, you're going to go down for this
Speaker 3: murder unless you stop lying and covering up for Joaquin,
Speaker 3: And they essentially tell him like, he's just got to
Speaker 3: say that Joaquin is the guy in the car with
Speaker 3: him at the time of the shooting, and that Joaquin
Speaker 3: is the shooter. And George Verilla literally says, Okay, whatever
Speaker 3: you said, and then he repeats the story that they
Speaker 3: have now fed to him, and that's it.
Speaker 1: M So I guess subsequently later you end up getting
Speaker 1: arrested Joaquin, Yes, and you end up getting arrested based
Speaker 1: on a confession from George.
Speaker 3: Or at least from George saying exactly what the police
Speaker 3: told them to say.
Speaker 1: Okay, so he was he fabricated her from the offices
Speaker 1: Garren's and Crowley.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, they tell him he's got to say
Speaker 3: it's Joaquin. That's like. Then they keep going back to
Speaker 3: the eyewitnesses. Basically, the witnesses make positive ideas only after
Speaker 3: they're repeatedly shown Joaquin, and for one of them, she
Speaker 3: doesn't even make a first positive Ida until the preliminary
Speaker 3: hearing when he's literally sitting in a red jumpsuit at
Speaker 3: the defense table, and then she's like, oh, I'm sure
Speaker 3: that's the guy. And she says it's based on his
Speaker 3: attitude that she can see is how she's identifying. I mean,
Speaker 3: there's a lot of racism all through this trial, Like
Speaker 3: she even says, I think they were speaking African.
Speaker 1: So on April nineteen, nineteen ninety, Joaquin, you were arrested
Speaker 1: in charged with first degree murder. Bro what was going
Speaker 1: through your head? I mean, did you even think this
Speaker 1: shit was real?
Speaker 4: Do you know what?
Speaker 2: Let me tell you these woop not even when I
Speaker 2: washed my are you I really believe that everything worth real?
Speaker 2: I was thinking that I was in I can't the
Speaker 2: camera show looking all these people coming and poilem me
Speaker 2: with a finger. Yeah, that the main And in my
Speaker 2: mind I said main, I know, I know the camera
Speaker 2: is going come o and they go and say a
Speaker 2: smile you in camera, you know, because that was a
Speaker 2: famite show at the time. I go to watch that
Speaker 2: show tomorrow, you know, and I and I say, you
Speaker 2: know what, I mean, what happened to me? I cannot
Speaker 2: believe it you. You cannot, being innocent, believe that what
Speaker 2: is happening to you is real. You cannot, you know,
Speaker 2: and that's what happened to me. And you know, to
Speaker 2: respond to your question, no, you know, I steel, don't
Speaker 2: get it, I steal. You don't even get it. Main
Speaker 2: you're being charged with frost the good morning.
Speaker 4: How you feel them getting so?
Speaker 3: George had actually kind of disappeared, George Urella, he'd not
Speaker 3: shown up for the prelim, he was missing leading up
Speaker 3: to the trial. I honestly believe Joaquin's attorney just didn't
Speaker 3: think he was even going to have to deal with George.
Speaker 3: It was just going to be this eyewitness I D case.
Speaker 3: And so he did I think a fairly good job,
Speaker 3: you know, showing all these discrepancies between the descriptions and
Speaker 3: what Joaquin actually looked like, their own inconsistent statements and
Speaker 3: kind of the evolution of their ideas. He did a
Speaker 3: nice job of showing that George Verrella's timeline didn't make
Speaker 3: any sense, that there was this like big gap in
Speaker 3: between the way he says what they did that night
Speaker 3: and how he drove Joaquin home. His timelines that lines
Speaker 3: up with Joaquines that Joaquin is home long before the
Speaker 3: murder happens. But what he missed, what he didn't manage
Speaker 3: to do. And one of the things I really respect
Speaker 3: about him is that he actually gave us a declaration
Speaker 3: saying he was ineffective because he didn't present to the jury.
Speaker 3: The jury never heard that Joaquin's name came from the
Speaker 3: homicide inspectors first, and that they told Verrella essentially that
Speaker 3: he had to identify Joaquin, so the jury just never
Speaker 3: heard that. What they heard instead was this guy who
Speaker 3: knows Joaquin, who'd grown up with him around is saying
Speaker 3: he's the guy who was with me in my car
Speaker 3: and who got out and shot him. And then he
Speaker 3: hears that corroborated by these two independent eyewitnesses, and Joaquin's
Speaker 3: attorney presented witnesses who describe what Joaquin looked like that night,
Speaker 3: how he had Jerry Curl in the short jacket, but
Speaker 3: he never presented the alibi witnesses. So they also didn't
Speaker 3: hear that Joaquin was at home with his one month
Speaker 3: old son and that they had a good reason to
Speaker 3: remember that night because they were going to celebrate the
Speaker 3: one month anniversary of his birth the next day, So
Speaker 3: you know, they knew that George Verrella was incentivized, they
Speaker 3: knew he got immunity, they knew he was in and
Speaker 3: out of trouble. So it wasn't a super strong case
Speaker 3: even with what they heard. But what they never heard
Speaker 3: was anything else about someone else actually did it, or
Speaker 3: that Joaquin had this really credible alibi, and so they
Speaker 3: end up convicting him.
Speaker 2: It don't matter if I'm trying to explain to you
Speaker 2: a thousand times, I cannot even feeling close to really
Speaker 2: really tell you how I feel when they come out
Speaker 2: with a guilty verity. You know, everything inside me stopped, everything,
Speaker 2: I stop breeding, my heart stopped.
Speaker 4: It is a feeling that that you can never you
Speaker 4: can never explain how it is.
Speaker 2: That they find you guilty, especial find me guilty or
Speaker 2: the moory of my bed frameming that's what really killed me.
Speaker 2: How can I be doing time for the money of
Speaker 2: my beayfriend made somebody that I love Even to today,
Speaker 2: I ain't the almost opened Pelican by presume in what
Speaker 2: the more tough prisum in the Californias sisting at the time.
Speaker 2: I see people when they told these people you go
Speaker 2: into Pelican Bay, I see grown Maine crumbled in the
Speaker 2: floor and crying when I was in some queen, you know.
Speaker 2: And I ask the people. I say, hey, man, why
Speaker 2: he crying? I said, man, you don't know where we're going.
Speaker 2: He said, we're going to Pelican be And I say,
Speaker 2: say what a body? I said, Cuba. Let me tell
Speaker 2: you man, it is no joke. He said, may wait
Speaker 2: util you get there.
Speaker 4: You know it was true.
Speaker 2: You know when I gotta tell you, Maine, every time
Speaker 2: that you heal alarm sound in that prison, it was
Speaker 2: not a first alarm. It was somebody got killed, you know.
Speaker 2: And I said, man, how did I ain't in there?
Speaker 2: But my mind is still do not stopping play some
Speaker 2: trick on me? I remember, you know. I who to
Speaker 2: weigh into my said go to sleep. And I had
Speaker 2: to cover my head with the blanket reyal tie and
Speaker 2: I had to close my eyes royal tie. And I
Speaker 2: had to say, Maine, when I open my eyes, now,
Speaker 2: when I open my eyes, now, I know this.
Speaker 4: Is a three. This is a three. I go and
Speaker 4: being home, we might sign with my baby's mama. This
Speaker 4: is a three. Man, this is a three. I went,
Speaker 4: I got Cobby might sell. I need to sell.
Speaker 2: You know, I say, wow, man, this is real mm hm.
Speaker 1: So I gotta ask you, man, like, how did you
Speaker 1: hold on to hope so much for all those years?
Speaker 1: Because I always always say, you know, for a person
Speaker 1: that committed crime, it's hard, you know, to deal with
Speaker 1: the time, But for an innocent person sitting there, it's
Speaker 1: a whole different level because you're going through everything, whether
Speaker 1: it's the violence in the prison, the abuse from the cops.
Speaker 2: Whatever it is, the CEOs, whatever it is.
Speaker 1: So how did you hold on the hope that you
Speaker 1: would get out?
Speaker 4: You know why?
Speaker 2: In the beginning I watched completely ain't good with God?
Speaker 2: Everything that I got in my mayis how did I
Speaker 2: go and prove that I don't do.
Speaker 4: What I can do? You know?
Speaker 2: And the good thing about it is and thank God,
Speaker 2: you know, to all the emails, you know, in every
Speaker 2: priest that I be, brother, in every priest that I be,
Speaker 2: every email, believe on me, hm, they can see through
Speaker 2: into my heart. They can see through into the type
Speaker 2: of man that I was. You know, this call it homies, homeboy.
Speaker 2: They're asking me working and why are you here for?
Speaker 4: Man?
Speaker 2: And I say, man, brother, they give me totally one
Speaker 2: year to life. Or a model that I not comke.
Speaker 2: I'm taking God. They say, hey, man, you know what
Speaker 2: I mean, I believe you? What can I believe you?
Speaker 2: And I say thank you man. And I received so
Speaker 2: much respect. I receive the respect that the systems don't
Speaker 2: give it to me. I got an e all these
Speaker 2: email the respect that deceasedent denight to me. I got
Speaker 2: in it from all these people.
Speaker 1: And page can you can you walk us through the
Speaker 1: post conviction litigation? I mean didn't evidently nothing worked for him.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean you got to give Jaquen credit like
Speaker 3: he litigated his case to the nines, like he got
Speaker 3: himself into federal court. I know you had helped from
Speaker 3: jail health lawyers. Have a lot of respect for jail
Speaker 3: health lawyers. And I mean, unfortunately the courts just refused
Speaker 3: to look at it and refuse to listen. But what
Speaker 3: eventually happened was Joaquin had earned the respect not only
Speaker 3: of other incarcerated folks, but also some of the free staff.
Speaker 3: And we were contacted by this guy, Ray Leonardini, who
Speaker 3: ran a meditation circle that Joaquin was a part of,
Speaker 3: and also Ellen Egger's pro bono attorney who have partnered
Speaker 3: with in a few cases, was helping another guy with
Speaker 3: parole who told her, you have to meet Joaquin, like
Speaker 3: he's actually innocent and you need to help them. And
Speaker 3: so Ellen went and met Joaquin. He told her everything.
Speaker 3: She like everybody, found him very compelling and believable, and
Speaker 3: so she The first thing asked her to do was
Speaker 3: go talk to George Verilla's sister, Denise Courcier, and Allan
Speaker 3: did that and Denise told her, my brother told me
Speaker 3: that Joaquin is innocent, that it was another Cuban man,
Speaker 3: and that the police really wanted Joaquin, and George was
Speaker 3: scared of them, and so he went along with what
Speaker 3: they wanted. But what really turned the case around was
Speaker 3: when Roberto Scoro got out of prison. He went to
Speaker 3: Cuba and he tracked down Joaquin's family and told them
Speaker 3: that he personally knew that Joaquin was innocent because he
Speaker 3: had actually seen the whole thing from his motel room.
Speaker 1: And listeners, remember, Roberto Cicoro was another friend of Joaquin's.
Speaker 1: The day before all of this happened, Roberto had killed
Speaker 1: this other guy named Ruben Alfonso, and he was hiding
Speaker 1: out at the Bay Bridge motel, waiting on Phoenix to
Speaker 1: bring up some clothes when he heard Felix southside argon
Speaker 1: with Candido Diaz.
Speaker 3: They had been fighting over over a gun and not
Speaker 3: paying for the gun, and so he recognized their voices
Speaker 3: and they start coming in and out of his view,
Speaker 3: and you know, he hears the gunshot and he runs
Speaker 3: out and he sees Candido get into the white Monte
Speaker 3: Carlo and drive away, and he basically broke down and
Speaker 3: apologized to Joaquin's family and explained that while he was
Speaker 3: in he'd been a shot caller initially, and so he
Speaker 3: felt like, you know, in addition to the normal amount
Speaker 3: of trouble you can get in in prison for snitching,
Speaker 3: that he, especially as someone who'd sort of enforced those rules,
Speaker 3: would be even more in danger. And for a long
Speaker 3: time he'd hope to be able to get his own revenge,
Speaker 3: that at some point Candido would get locked up and
Speaker 3: he would be able to avenge Felix's death, and in
Speaker 3: some ways, fortunately that never happened, and instead he gets
Speaker 3: out and tells the truth, and that really broke open
Speaker 3: the case.
Speaker 1: And Ellen also tracked down a couple of people that
Speaker 1: George Varilla had talked to and had told them Joaquin
Speaker 1: was innocent. One was Joaquin's sister Denise, and the other
Speaker 1: was a woman named Katie dad Gonzales.
Speaker 3: She was friends with Nellie Hernandez, George's mother, and also
Speaker 3: knew Joaquin through Nelly and through the Cuban community. George
Speaker 3: tells her also, so it's very similar to what he
Speaker 3: said to Denise that he knows Joaquin is innocent and
Speaker 3: didn't do this. And so we had these two statements
Speaker 3: from George Verilla to two different people saying that Joaquin
Speaker 3: was innocent and also saying that it was another Cuban man.
Speaker 3: And so Candye Rodez is not only Cuban but also
Speaker 3: matches the original description. He was always had his hair
Speaker 3: in an afro. He was known to wear long trench coats.
Speaker 3: And it turns out he'd had this, you know, ongoing
Speaker 3: and escalating feud with Felix Pasta Rica right before the murder,
Speaker 3: and it all started over the weapon that may actually
Speaker 3: have been used, A forty four, which was actually the
Speaker 3: weapon they said was used to kill Felix Basta Rica.
Speaker 3: So Ellen had done most of the investigation by the
Speaker 3: time she came to me, and it was only the
Speaker 3: Roberto piece that came afterwards, but we really felt like
Speaker 3: that pushed it over the top. And then the Innocence
Speaker 3: Commission also got an eyewitness ID expert to look at
Speaker 3: the eyewitnesses and just really explain and under the social
Speaker 3: science that we now know even more why all of
Speaker 3: those all the reasons eyewitness identifications are unreliable, but were
Speaker 3: especially so in this case.
Speaker 1: Well not just unreliable, I believe one of the witnesses,
Speaker 1: Kathleen Gavada, had another reason to identify Joaquin.
Speaker 2: You know, the same woman I say from the Beginni,
Speaker 2: now that I hold the po say SHOLDI DMin I
Speaker 2: only atey poucing and lao you know CHI give it
Speaker 2: defending change and watch you see well Chila.
Speaker 1: So Paige, after all this new information you put in
Speaker 1: front of them, did the courts quickly agree that Joaquin
Speaker 1: was innocent?
Speaker 3: I mean we expected them to, especially because the DA's
Speaker 3: office was on board, and.
Speaker 1: That was District Ernie chesso Bodin, who was repeatedly under
Speaker 1: fire from the police union and adversaries. There were I
Speaker 1: think like two recall elections, so his political foot and
Speaker 1: was never secure and he was the one that was
Speaker 1: making the recommendation based on the Innocence Commission findings.
Speaker 3: They had this separate Innocence Commission, right, that was supposed
Speaker 3: to be this independent body. It had DA's public defenders, experts,
Speaker 3: law professors, you know, like this whole commission of different
Speaker 3: stakeholders who all agreed Joaquin is fully innocent. And in
Speaker 3: my experience, usually when that happens, the courts are pretty
Speaker 3: willing to go along pretty quickly, right, But unfortunately we
Speaker 3: had the exact opposite experience here, and I can only
Speaker 3: imagine some of that was the politics going on in
Speaker 3: San Francisco. The court essentially just the first thing they
Speaker 3: did was ask us to do another round of briefing,
Speaker 3: and they invited the Attorney General's office, in which you
Speaker 3: know doesn't generally happen in superior court. But here's the
Speaker 3: court saying, you know, District Attorney, I don't trust what
Speaker 3: you have to say, and so Attorney General, I'm inviting
Speaker 3: you in to tell me something different. Fortunately, the AG's
Speaker 3: office also saw that this wasn't a case to oppose.
Speaker 3: Everything pointed to Jaquin's innocence. There's no reliable evidence of
Speaker 3: guilt anywhere. But even after you know, a second round
Speaker 3: of briefing in the AG's office, refusing to come in.
Speaker 3: They still had us have an evident you're hearing, And
Speaker 3: so here we are both sides arguing for the same thing.
Speaker 3: So we're both presenting opening statements on Joaquin being innocent,
Speaker 3: and then we're both doing closing arguments about how he's
Speaker 3: entitled to relief and how we all believe he's innocent
Speaker 3: and the judge should reverse his conviction. Luckily, by then
Speaker 3: we'd been switched to a different judge, was a really good,
Speaker 3: experienced judge and just saw all the problems with the case.
Speaker 3: And then finally, on April eighteenth, the court reversed Joaquin's
Speaker 3: conviction and the district attorneys again announced he was innocent.
Speaker 3: They dismissed all of the charges.
Speaker 4: Man, I almost fail to be fluw.
Speaker 2: Yes to go out to the freedom that I want
Speaker 2: deny for almost thirty two years, and I don't even
Speaker 2: know how to make it all the way to the door,
Speaker 2: you know, And I keep walking. I'm walking on imagin
Speaker 2: you know, when when they open the door to me
Speaker 2: and I see, you know, I see pay ailing, my
Speaker 2: son and my baby's mama, I see everybody. Man, it
Speaker 2: was too much for me. I say, my god, it
Speaker 2: was a day unbelievable, this type of feeling. You have
Speaker 2: to really go through that for you can really have
Speaker 2: the thing what I'm talking about.
Speaker 4: It is unbelievable. It is unbelievable. Yeah, I'm with you
Speaker 4: on that.
Speaker 1: And of course we're all super grateful to the Northern
Speaker 1: California Innocent Project and the fantastic work that they do
Speaker 1: because it's through them that people like Joaquin can you know,
Speaker 1: have a chance to get back to this free world.
Speaker 1: So if anyone want to show the Northern California Innocent
Speaker 1: Projects some love, we'll have the link in the bios
Speaker 1: so you can do that. So we've got to the
Speaker 1: point of the show where we do this thing called
Speaker 1: closing arguments. And first I want to thank you all
Speaker 1: for being here, and I also want to ask y'all
Speaker 1: to share your final thoughts for the listeners, you know,
Speaker 1: anything that you want to say, any takeaway you may have,
Speaker 1: and page I want to first start with you and
Speaker 1: then we can close with Joaquin.
Speaker 3: So the thing that I think we haven't done a
Speaker 3: great job of yet, especially in San Francisco, is like
Speaker 3: we know, there was this era in which they were
Speaker 3: treating especially young black men terribly and saw themselves as
Speaker 3: like cleaning up the streets by somehow getting people involved
Speaker 3: in homicides and throwing them away for life. And there
Speaker 3: are six people who've been exonerated out of San Francisco,
Speaker 3: all of them are black men, and five of them
Speaker 3: are from this nineteen ninety era. They all have incredible story.
Speaker 3: You should look into all of them. Joaquin, Maurice Caldwell,
Speaker 3: Antoine Goff, John Tennyson, and Kara mad Conley, who I
Speaker 3: know you've already interviewed, But what we haven't done is
Speaker 3: look back at what else went wrong there. So it
Speaker 3: shouldn't be luck of the draw, right whose cases get
Speaker 3: looked at and who gets picked up? And so Headjoaquin
Speaker 3: not you know, convinced other incarcerated folks that he was
Speaker 3: innocent and then one of them meeting Allen like you know,
Speaker 3: this luck of the draw thing. It's not okay for
Speaker 3: justice to be that arbitrary with what little justice exists
Speaker 3: in our system. And so my hope and listeners, I'd
Speaker 3: love for you to encourage this is that we actually
Speaker 3: look back. There's four homicide investigators who were involved in
Speaker 3: all of these cases, we could look at their cases,
Speaker 3: we could look at all cases from this era. You know,
Speaker 3: cdcr's budget for this year is over fourteen billion dollars.
Speaker 3: Just imagine what would happen if we just spent a
Speaker 3: tiny fraction of that on actually looking for where things
Speaker 3: went wrong, starting with the places we already know things
Speaker 3: went Everybody should have a chance to prove themselves nons
Speaker 3: as bad as the worst thing they've ever done. And
Speaker 3: you know, these guys who have done all this time
Speaker 3: like you are, Land, like Kyuki, and who have come
Speaker 3: out and shown like I mean, one of the things
Speaker 3: I just love also about what you've been doing is
Speaker 3: just highlighting the humanity of people right whether they're incarcerated
Speaker 3: or not. We are all have this huge amount to
Speaker 3: offer and give, and I just would love for us
Speaker 3: to stop leaving so many people behind and really start
Speaker 3: focusing on using our resources in better ways.
Speaker 4: What I want to say, you know, to all be listening.
Speaker 2: I want to leave everybody know that what happened to
Speaker 2: me is continually happening right now, and the only way
Speaker 2: it can be at top we all have to come
Speaker 2: out together and do something about it. I always say,
Speaker 2: if we're capable to go to the moon, we have
Speaker 2: to be capable to prevent the anal.
Speaker 4: Same pace go to prison. Simple like that.
Speaker 2: How can you go to the moon but you cannot
Speaker 2: prebay in one person to go to prison. It saying
Speaker 2: I know right now, at this moment, in some part
Speaker 2: of the country in a court house, somebody's going to
Speaker 2: prison right now being INNO say it is no doubt
Speaker 2: in my mind. And he going through for the same
Speaker 2: thing that I go through when I was in that position.
Speaker 2: I know we can stop it. I know we can
Speaker 2: do so anything about it because I know Number one
Speaker 2: is we need to make the dis Ratney accountable for
Speaker 2: any wrong doing that they do. And I said the
Speaker 2: every dish Ratney. No, we got some really good dist
Speaker 2: rattorney that they do their job. They go by the
Speaker 2: law and they honesty people, how walking people. But we
Speaker 2: got some other one that they don't care, they don't
Speaker 2: get They want to wing our case O this face
Speaker 2: it or the ego same people.
Speaker 4: We have to stop dot.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'm your guest host
Speaker 1: Erline Woods. I like to thank executive producers Jason Flumm
Speaker 1: and Kevin Waters for inviting me to be here good
Speaker 1: Looking Special thanks to our wonderful production team Connor Hall,
Speaker 1: Annie Chelsea, Lila Robinson and Jeff Clyburn. The music in
Speaker 1: this production comes from three time Oscar Numbernee Jay Raff.
Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction,
Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at
Speaker 1: Rome Conviction, as well as Lava for Good. On all
Speaker 1: three platforms. You can find me online at Erline Woods,
Speaker 1: and you can find my podcast ear Hustle wherever you
Speaker 1: listen to podcasts. Wrongful Conviction is a producttion to Blober
Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one