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Speaker 1: On the night of March twenty fourth, nineteen ninety, Felix

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Speaker 1: Costo Rico was walking down an alley in San Francisco's

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Speaker 1: Mission District. Witnesses saw a man get out of a

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Speaker 1: white money Carlo and confront Felix, and the two started arguing. Suddenly,

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Speaker 1: a shot rang out and Felix fell to the ground dead.

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Speaker 1: The shooter jumped back into the car and sped away

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Speaker 1: with another man at the wheel. By the next morning,

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Speaker 1: rumors were flying around the streets that the shooter was

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Speaker 1: a lifelong friend of Felix's, Joaquin Syria. They had grown

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Speaker 1: up together in Cuba. Word was that the two were

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Speaker 1: in a dispute over money. Joaquin had been out earlier

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Speaker 1: that evening with a friend who drove a white money Carlo,

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Speaker 1: but he claimed to be home with his wife and

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Speaker 1: baby son for the night by the time the crime

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Speaker 1: was committed. After viewing several lineups that included Joaquin's picture,

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Speaker 1: two eyewitnesses id'd him as the man they seen. One

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Speaker 1: witness claimed that she was eighty percent certain and that

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Speaker 1: was close enough for the jury. But this is wrongful conviction.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to romeful conviction. I'm Mariline Woods, co creator

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Speaker 1: and co hosts of the Ear Hustle podcast, guest hosting

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Speaker 1: for Jason flummer Day. And I gotta tell you I

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Speaker 1: served over twenty seven years in prison, and I used

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Speaker 1: to always think about the people who were in here

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Speaker 1: that were actually innocent, you know, dealing with the day

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Speaker 1: to day grinding rigor of prison life. And that brings

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Speaker 1: us to our guest today, Joaquin Sariah. Joaquin. Welcome to

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Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you.

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Speaker 1: Cool cool. And here to help tell Joaquin's story is

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Speaker 1: Paige Kanap. She's the supervising attorney at the Northern California

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Speaker 1: Innocent Project. Paige, thanks for being here.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I am super excited to meet you, Arline. I'm

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Speaker 3: super happy to be with you.

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Speaker 1: Morning. Joaquin. Can you tell me, like, since you from Cuba,

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Speaker 1: what was your life like growing up growing now in Kilwow?

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Speaker 2: It was beautiful. It was beautiful, you know for me

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Speaker 2: to be a child growing now in my country. You know,

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Speaker 2: so rein them my family frame and kill what you

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Speaker 2: do a lot of teams you know that you're not

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Speaker 2: able to do in this country. You know, I remember

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Speaker 2: you know that in kill what we who to play

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Speaker 2: you know in the three to one o'cloud two o'cline

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Speaker 2: the morning, and it was no dingy everybody know everybody,

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Speaker 2: you know, because it's an island. I had a royal

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Speaker 2: beautiful shaohoo.

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Speaker 1: Got you, got you, got you. So when you were

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Speaker 1: a youngster, the US and Cuba was beefing. You know,

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Speaker 1: they have a pretty fraud history, you know, the Missile crisis,

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Speaker 1: the Communist revolt and bargoes. Not really a free flowing dialogue.

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Speaker 1: So I'm just curious, like, what were your impressions of

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Speaker 1: the United States back.

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Speaker 2: Well, let me let me tell you this, man, everybody

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Speaker 2: c what the majority we grow out believing everything that

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Speaker 2: we're watching the TV about the United States. We really

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Speaker 2: believe that Superman really exists. Anything that you go out

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Speaker 2: from United States, we really believe that. Brother, you know,

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Speaker 2: you know in we watch so brainwatched, you know that

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Speaker 2: when we're watching movie A Superman, Wonder Woman, we really

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Speaker 2: believe that these type of people exist in the United States.

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Speaker 1: You know, unbelievable. So this see how I grow out

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Speaker 1: and and and and wa quing. You knew the victim

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Speaker 1: in this case, Phyllis bastar Rica. When you were a kid,

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Speaker 1: back in Cuba.

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Speaker 2: You know, a Phillis we all call hi colitles. He

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Speaker 2: was close to my neighborhood, so mini mini minie time.

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Speaker 2: We who to skate from the school to go swimming

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Speaker 2: in the ocean, you know, go go hip some mango

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Speaker 2: sugar cane. Everybody liked to be around Philly. You know,

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Speaker 2: if you go into a party, you want him to

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Speaker 2: be there. He was only laughing all the time, making

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Speaker 2: a lot of joke. Definitely, he was a good friend, right.

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Speaker 1: And I'm just curious, did you come from like a

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Speaker 1: political family over in Cuba.

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Speaker 2: My father he was a revolutionary, you know, he was

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Speaker 2: a Commonist. He fight with they got through, you see,

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Speaker 2: if they got got the power way. My father was

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Speaker 2: a part of that. Yeah, the majority of my family

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Speaker 2: they really believed, you know, in the Commonies. And it

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Speaker 2: was problem in the house, you know, because we all

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Speaker 2: got different views. Since my ely age, I got really

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Speaker 2: really big trouble to fit in the Commonist party. I

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Speaker 2: got trouble with that. So you know, at the age

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Speaker 2: of eighteen, I was called to be in the army.

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Speaker 2: I was in high school at that time. But they

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Speaker 2: don't care. That was a man that told it called.

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Speaker 2: You know, a lot of young people escape because we

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Speaker 2: don't want to do that, you know, to go fight

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Speaker 2: to some other country, like a lot of Joonts in Cuba,

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Speaker 2: they were saying to Angola to fight a lot of

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Speaker 2: all these young people got killed, you know. So me

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Speaker 2: and I say, oh, I don't want to do that.

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Speaker 2: So when I was called to be in the army,

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Speaker 2: I remember that I was there maybe for about sismon

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Speaker 2: and I escape. A lot of Johns they do that.

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Speaker 2: After I escape, I go to my fatherly house and

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Speaker 2: I spend some time with my family. Into my father

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Speaker 2: come and told me, and he said, you know what,

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Speaker 2: walking I don't want no trouble with the government. You

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Speaker 2: have to give it, you say, do the right thing,

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Speaker 2: you know. And and I respect my family, you know,

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Speaker 2: I love my father so more that this is how

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Speaker 2: I aim. Then, you know, in prison, you know in Cuba,

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Speaker 2: it's not like right here, you know, right here, I

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Speaker 2: waiting something hoppy to your yoka crying right in two

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Speaker 2: or three days they take.

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Speaker 1: You to court your due process.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, in kull White difity in Culba, they directed you, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you can be out thea for one through three four. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I never go to court. Yeah, they see how it

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Speaker 2: is in Kiwa damn.

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Speaker 1: So in May of nineteen eighty, after spending some time

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Speaker 1: in prison, you fled Cuba as a part of the

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Speaker 1: Mario boat left, which from my understanding was a mass

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Speaker 1: migration of around one hundred and twenty five thousand Cubans

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Speaker 1: that was sanctioned by both Jimmy Carter and Fidale Castro.

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Speaker 1: You were still a teenager at that time, right, yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I want to ask you what do you remember

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Speaker 1: about the boat ride from Cuba to Florida because I

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Speaker 1: used to always see it on the news, you know,

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Speaker 1: individuals on floats and stuff like that coming from Cuba.

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Speaker 1: What what do you remember about that boat ride?

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Speaker 2: Well, Frosseto, to be honest with you, bro, I see

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Speaker 2: a lot of ball when I was in the ocean,

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Speaker 2: you know, and we're talking about a ball that you

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Speaker 2: might can pull twenty or thirty people in that ball.

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Speaker 2: So what the Cuba government was doing need instead or

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Speaker 2: pull twenty or thirty people? They who to put two

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Speaker 2: hundred people in the bowl. So imagining and let me

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Speaker 2: tell you, Mane, I see with my own eyes how

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Speaker 2: a lot of ball that's appeal you know, in the

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Speaker 2: ocean one minute that was next to us, and when

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Speaker 2: I look, it's not a te anomal, it is like

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Speaker 2: it is gone. So it was really, really really it

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Speaker 2: was really ugly, you know, right.

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Speaker 1: So fortunately for you you got here safely and you

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Speaker 1: landed in Key West, Florida. Can you tell me what

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Speaker 1: your feelings were when you first read the United States?

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Speaker 2: At that moment, I feel, you know, I watched Hoppy. Yeah, yah,

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Speaker 2: I wa Hoppy completely. You know that I fleck. I

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Speaker 2: watched Hoppy. You know that. I mean you not a

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Speaker 2: state that I don't have to live it a field

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Speaker 2: no more. I don't have to water, you know about that?

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Speaker 2: I going and they killed Biddy. Govin ain't on Sonty

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Speaker 2: like that. I know. I washed the most power with

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Speaker 2: fo komtri in the war. So that moment, anything that

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Speaker 2: they told me WILLILL believe it.

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Speaker 1: So over the next few years, you kind of skipped

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Speaker 1: around to a few different cities and you finally ended

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Speaker 1: up in San Francisco living with a woman named Nellie Hernandez.

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Speaker 1: Nelly was a little older than you, and she has

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Speaker 1: six kids. And back then you were hanging out with

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Speaker 1: a couple of your partners from Cuba, your childhood friend

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Speaker 1: Felix Costa Rica who had also made it to the US.

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Speaker 1: And a guy named Robert Socorro. And there was another

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Speaker 1: cat from Cuba that was a hustler name Candido ds

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Speaker 1: What did you know about him?

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Speaker 2: You know, Candido Dias, what I know about him? You

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Speaker 2: know that he's a cute one. You know, he was

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Speaker 2: living in San Francisco in the Sta Hotel, you know,

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Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety. And I never think, you know, he

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Speaker 2: had any typeo or bad feeling about me, a fat

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Speaker 2: that I know. You know, we're talking sometimes and you

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Speaker 2: know when you got the feeling that you don't click

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Speaker 2: with the persion, you know, that's the way I feel,

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Speaker 2: that the way he feel. But we never let it,

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Speaker 2: you know, past to the level or having any type

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Speaker 2: of problem with him.

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Speaker 1: Okay, And when you was in San Francisco and asked

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Speaker 1: us what was the San Francisco Police Department like?

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Speaker 2: So in nineteen ninety in San Francisco Police Department, it

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Speaker 2: was really really really I could root department. I already

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Speaker 2: you know, listening in the three what they were doing,

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Speaker 2: how they brand drag on people car you know, and

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Speaker 2: and all that type of stuff. You know. Of course,

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Speaker 2: not everybody, not every police is doing you know, some

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Speaker 2: really Torigan, they really got some a lot of bad apple,

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Speaker 2: you know in the San Francis Complete department. Hyah my

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Speaker 2: twenty four, nineteen ninety. You know, my personal life at

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Speaker 2: that time it was changing, you know for the bet

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Speaker 2: you know, I mean my baby's mama, you know, Johanna

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Speaker 2: pays about almost about a jayago before my son was born.

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Speaker 2: I was a happy man, you know at that time,

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Speaker 2: and all my friend, oh, my friend, what's happy with

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Speaker 2: me too? You know, roveto socorro he was happy if

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Speaker 2: Philidy who took coming to my house. It was a

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Speaker 2: happy time for me, right, you know, at that time.

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Speaker 1: Until, of course, your good friend Felix Basto Rico was killed,

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Speaker 1: which happened on the night of March twenty fourth of

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety. So Paige, can you can you walk us

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Speaker 1: through what transpired that night?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So what we know is that Felix Pasta Rica

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Speaker 3: was walking down the street with a plastic bag. We've

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Speaker 3: since learned from Roberto SoCoRo that Roberto was in hiding.

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Speaker 3: He had just killed someone and had asked Felix to

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Speaker 3: bring him some clothes and toilet trees and stuff. So

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Speaker 3: he's walking over to the bay Bridge Motel where Roberto is.

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Speaker 3: And in Clara Alley, which is sort of perpendicular to

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Speaker 3: the Baybridge Motel, there are people. There's a guy in

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Speaker 3: a car, Kenneth stuff, and there's a woman up in

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Speaker 3: the window, Kathleen Guovara, and they both hear this loud altercation,

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Speaker 3: this loud argument in the alleyway, and describe these two

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Speaker 3: people kind of walking back and forth interacting with each other.

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Speaker 3: There's a white Monte Carlo that the guy with the

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Speaker 3: gun gets out of and he shoots Felix Pastrica in

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Speaker 3: the street and jumps back in the white Monte Carlo

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Speaker 3: and drives off right.

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Speaker 1: And that even in Joaquin, you were spending time with

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Speaker 1: another friend, eighteen year old George Varilla, who was actually

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Speaker 1: the son of your former girlfriend Nellie Hernandez.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I remain. Me and Joe Barrela, we who

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Speaker 2: to be real close when he wasched, you know around

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Speaker 2: a nine. Yeah, oh, we who to go to the

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Speaker 2: video Keda all the time. We watched Aditta to play video.

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Speaker 2: I'm to be honesty, I feel, you know, even when

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Speaker 2: I watch young I feel like he watch my son.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: He would come to my house almost every two three days.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so can you tell us like what you and

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Speaker 1: you know George got into on the evening of March

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Speaker 1: twenty fourth, before y'all have parted ways.

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Speaker 2: I remembered that nine that wasn't home with my family.

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Speaker 2: You know, I expaid that, you know, to stay home.

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Speaker 2: I was in May and I received a phone call

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Speaker 2: from your So when I got the phone your he

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Speaker 2: started told me and he said, hey, man, what you're doing?

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Speaker 2: I said, man, I'm right here. You know, I spent

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Speaker 2: some time with Johanna and with my son. Man, I bow,

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Speaker 2: why we don't go to play video? So he conveys

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Speaker 2: me and I go out with here and he come

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Speaker 2: out to peep me out. It is white Monte Carlo.

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Speaker 1: Oh, George Rilla drove a white money Carlo.

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Speaker 2: He got a white Monte Carlo. He peeped me out.

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Speaker 2: Almost around seven o'clock we go to the CAA to

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Speaker 2: play video. I remember that we got there almost around seven.

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Speaker 2: Your saving toty with what play video? Buado the Blue?

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Speaker 2: He come out and told me and said, hey, what

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Speaker 2: can I have to go back to my house because

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00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:10,360
Speaker 2: my girlfriend. She come out from Richmond, so to make

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Speaker 2: this toy show.

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Speaker 1: We leave, and when you left, you didn't go straight home.

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Speaker 1: You enjoyed stopped by Gallon's Bar first, where a lot

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Speaker 1: of Cubans and Puerto Ricans ain't got at to see

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Speaker 1: if you might meet up with a friend of yours there,

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Speaker 1: But instead you ran into another guy, Roberto Hernandez, who

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00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:28,880
Speaker 1: was not exactly a friend.

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Speaker 2: We don't get along, you know me, and he got

247
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Speaker 2: a fire side. After I see my friend Manolo, I

248
00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:37,360
Speaker 2: talking with Manolo for a little while and got to

249
00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:40,960
Speaker 2: the fight. Joe Barrella take me home. I got to

250
00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:45,240
Speaker 2: my house around a twenty five h eight toty Navid,

251
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Speaker 2: I leave my how a game And did you know

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00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:49,960
Speaker 2: what you was wearing that night? Yeah? Yeah, that's something

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Speaker 2: that I never go and forget that, Navid, because at

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00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:55,600
Speaker 2: that time, I don't know if you remain me that

255
00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:58,840
Speaker 2: a lot of young people Epecio black people like me,

256
00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:02,280
Speaker 2: we who to with that type post Jackie letter, JACKI

257
00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:06,800
Speaker 2: you know that it washed all colorful letter, Jaki Song said.

258
00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:13,320
Speaker 2: Ko Mamba Squad Song said, how roly So Coverda got you?

259
00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:16,560
Speaker 2: I don't think that I think that I even can

260
00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:20,680
Speaker 2: sleep with that Jackey d C how to much I know,

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00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:23,880
Speaker 2: Michael Mama squad. Yeah, and they see how I get

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Speaker 2: out out of my house when yo body, I piped

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Speaker 2: me out.

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Speaker 1: Okay, cool. So George dropped you off at around eight

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Speaker 1: thirty and you spent the rest of the evening at

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Speaker 1: home with Johanna and your son. But by the next

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Speaker 1: day there was already a rumor going around that it

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Speaker 1: was you that killed Costa Rica, as you found out

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Speaker 1: from your friend Manolo when you went to Gallon's bar

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Speaker 1: the next day.

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Speaker 2: Manolo and some Odo people wasch outside the bottom. When

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Speaker 2: Manolo see me, Manolo approaching me, you know how, he said, hey, waking,

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Speaker 2: how you doing? My friend? You know ween brace and

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00:15:56,640 --> 00:15:58,760
Speaker 2: he said, man why you don't leave the CD? And

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Speaker 2: I look at here. I say, leady, CD, what are

276
00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:05,440
Speaker 2: you talking about? Manolo? He said, Main CALITOQ last night?

277
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Speaker 2: You know, I'm the rue noise that you beat it.

278
00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:11,280
Speaker 2: And I say, hey, A stop playing like tod mate,

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Speaker 2: do you show? What are you talking about? He said? Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So when he told me now the Frost team that

281
00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:19,240
Speaker 2: is coming, you know, in my mind, I just say, oh,

282
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Speaker 2: Main's something wrong here, and I just started to be afraid.

283
00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:26,360
Speaker 1: And it came out later that Condido DZ was the

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00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:29,680
Speaker 1: likely instigator of that rumor. But however it got started.

285
00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:33,040
Speaker 1: The two homicide detectives work in the case, Art Gearns

286
00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:35,800
Speaker 1: and James Crowley ran with that rumor.

287
00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:39,480
Speaker 3: So Joaquin's name comes up really fast in the investigation,

288
00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:42,080
Speaker 3: and from as soon as they get his name, he

289
00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:45,400
Speaker 3: is the only person they ever look into, and so

290
00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:48,000
Speaker 3: essentially what you can see in the police reports is

291
00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:52,400
Speaker 3: the two homicide inspectors who have Joaquin as their one

292
00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:56,280
Speaker 3: and only suspect, start showing his picture to the two eyewitnesses,

293
00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:59,160
Speaker 3: neither of whom identify him. They ask her, well, who

294
00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:03,280
Speaker 3: looks most like the shooter, and she says, well, she

295
00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:05,679
Speaker 3: points to Jaquin's photo and says he looks most like

296
00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:07,960
Speaker 3: the shooter, but she doesn't say it's him, and the

297
00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:10,600
Speaker 3: guy in the car says he doesn't pick anybody out,

298
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Speaker 3: but they still keep their focus entirely on Joaquin.

299
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Speaker 1: But Joaquin didn't even match the descriptions that the two

300
00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:17,560
Speaker 1: witnesses gave right, No.

301
00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:21,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, so the police did get descriptions from the eyewitnesses

302
00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:24,480
Speaker 3: of the shooter and the things they describe because they

303
00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:26,440
Speaker 3: both sort of say they see him from a distance,

304
00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:28,639
Speaker 3: kind of the silhouette. They say he's got an afro,

305
00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:32,400
Speaker 3: and that he's wearing this long trench coat. And we

306
00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:35,800
Speaker 3: know from independent witnesses, including the guy Joaquin got in

307
00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:37,520
Speaker 3: a fight with, who you know, didn't like him and

308
00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:40,080
Speaker 3: had no reason to lie for him, that Joaquin's hair

309
00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:42,280
Speaker 3: is in a long Jerry curl, not in an afro,

310
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Speaker 3: and he's wearing this short, short leather jacket and not

311
00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:48,520
Speaker 3: a long trench coat. And in fact, no one had

312
00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:51,119
Speaker 3: ever seen Joaquin ever in a trench coat, and he

313
00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:52,600
Speaker 3: didn't even own a trench coat.

314
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Speaker 2: You know, thank God that I just stop at the

315
00:17:55,920 --> 00:18:00,520
Speaker 2: Gottam bottle because you'll see everybody see me how the race.

316
00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:04,960
Speaker 2: Everybody the people they said by they DeFi they've remained

317
00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:07,600
Speaker 2: by how I watched the race. They've remainbed that I

318
00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:08,600
Speaker 2: got a Jerry craile.

319
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Speaker 3: I mean, even when they search the house, they're never

320
00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:15,600
Speaker 3: able to find anything to connect Joaquin, and and so

321
00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:18,280
Speaker 3: you know, it doesn't match. He doesn't match the descriptions,

322
00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:21,840
Speaker 3: and he's got an alibi. His his girlfriend and their

323
00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:24,920
Speaker 3: roommate tell the police from the very beginning that he's

324
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Speaker 3: home that night by eight thirty.

325
00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:30,800
Speaker 1: Nevertheless, Garance and Crowley stay focused on Joaquin as a suspect.

326
00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:34,359
Speaker 1: And so at that point, Joaquin, you went to the

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Speaker 1: police station on your own, correct.

328
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Speaker 2: I cannot take a no mom maent. I cannot take

329
00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:40,600
Speaker 2: a no more you watch some more roomo that I said, Man,

330
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Speaker 2: I have to go to to with the homo side.

331
00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:45,679
Speaker 2: I have to go talk to with the homo side. Bolutalitly.

332
00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:49,520
Speaker 2: I go with my loyo to speak to the homo side.

333
00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:53,520
Speaker 3: About two and a half weeks after the shooting, and

334
00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:55,840
Speaker 3: he tells them that he was with George Ferrella in

335
00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:58,359
Speaker 3: the white Monte Carlo, and he tells them how to

336
00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:00,440
Speaker 3: find George, says, I, you know, I dated it his mother,

337
00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:03,960
Speaker 3: Nellie Hernandez. They live at this address. Here's what he

338
00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:06,320
Speaker 3: looks like. Here's the car he drives, I mean, basically

339
00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:10,880
Speaker 3: everything they need. And they pull in George Verilla and

340
00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:13,240
Speaker 3: George is initially saying, well, I can tell you what

341
00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:15,600
Speaker 3: happened up until the time Joaquin and I split up,

342
00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:17,840
Speaker 3: and then he says he went home after and he says, well,

343
00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:20,640
Speaker 3: I probably I probably went somewhere after though, and they

344
00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:23,000
Speaker 3: never ask him where did you go? Instead, what they

345
00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:26,320
Speaker 3: say is, we know Joaquin was the shooter. You're going

346
00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:28,359
Speaker 3: to go down for this murder. He's you know, George

347
00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:30,120
Speaker 3: is eighteen. They tell him, you're going to go down

348
00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:33,360
Speaker 3: for this murder unless you stop lying and covering up

349
00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:36,640
Speaker 3: for Joaquin. They essentially tell him like, he's just got

350
00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:38,560
Speaker 3: to say that Joaquin is the guy in the car

351
00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:40,480
Speaker 3: with him at the time of the shooting, and that

352
00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:44,480
Speaker 3: Joaquin is the shooter. And George Verilla literally says, Okay,

353
00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:48,479
Speaker 3: whatever you said, and then he repeats the story that

354
00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:51,399
Speaker 3: they have now fed to him, and that's it.

355
00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:57,320
Speaker 1: So I guess subsequently later you end up getting arrested. Joaquin, Yes,

356
00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:00,000
Speaker 1: and you end up getting arrested based on a confession

357
00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:01,639
Speaker 1: from George.

358
00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:04,320
Speaker 3: Or at least from George saying exactly what the police

359
00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:05,119
Speaker 3: told them to say.

360
00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:07,919
Speaker 1: Okay, and so he was he fabricated her from the

361
00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:09,840
Speaker 1: officers Garn's and Crowley.

362
00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:12,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, they tell him he's got to say

363
00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:14,879
Speaker 3: it's Joaquin. That's like. Then they keep going back to

364
00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:18,920
Speaker 3: the eyewitnesses. Basically, the witnesses make positive ideas only after

365
00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:21,800
Speaker 3: they're repeatedly shown Joaquin and for one of them. She

366
00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:24,359
Speaker 3: doesn't even make a first positive Ida until the preliminary

367
00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:26,879
Speaker 3: hearing when he's literally sitting in a red jumpsuit at

368
00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:29,359
Speaker 3: the defense table, and then she's like, oh, I'm sure

369
00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:31,760
Speaker 3: that's the guy. And she says it's based on his

370
00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:36,040
Speaker 3: attitude that she can see is how she's identifying. I mean,

371
00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:38,600
Speaker 3: there's a lot of racism all through this trial, Like

372
00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:41,520
Speaker 3: she even says, I think they were speaking African.

373
00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:47,040
Speaker 1: So on April nineteen, nineteen ninety, Joaquin, you were arrested

374
00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:50,440
Speaker 1: in charged with first degree murder, bro what was going

375
00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:53,399
Speaker 1: through your head? I mean, did you even think this

376
00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:54,280
Speaker 1: shit was real?

377
00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:57,879
Speaker 2: Do you know what? Let me tell you these whoop

378
00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:01,639
Speaker 2: not even when I washed my try you, I really

379
00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:04,679
Speaker 2: believe that everything worth real. I was thinking that I

380
00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:07,960
Speaker 2: wasn't a can't the camera show looking all these people

381
00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:12,720
Speaker 2: coming and pointed me with a finger, Yeah, that the

382
00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:16,720
Speaker 2: main And in my mind I said main, I know,

383
00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:18,800
Speaker 2: I know the camera is going come out and they

384
00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:22,919
Speaker 2: go and say a smile you in camera, you know,

385
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:25,720
Speaker 2: because that was a famite show at the time. I

386
00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:30,600
Speaker 2: you to watch that show tomorrow, you know, and I

387
00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:33,119
Speaker 2: and I say, you know what I mean, what happened

388
00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:37,520
Speaker 2: to me. I cannot believe it. You you cannot, being innocing,

389
00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:45,040
Speaker 2: believe that what is happening to you is real. You cannot,

390
00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:48,800
Speaker 2: you know, and that's what happened to me. And you know,

391
00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:52,359
Speaker 2: to respond to your question, no, you know, I steel,

392
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:55,320
Speaker 2: don't get it, I steal. You don't even get it.

393
00:21:55,840 --> 00:22:01,199
Speaker 2: Main you're being charged with frost the good morning. I

394
00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:02,600
Speaker 2: just deal with them getting so.

395
00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:06,800
Speaker 3: George had actually kind of disappeared, George Urella, he'd not

396
00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:10,479
Speaker 3: shown up for the prelim, he was missing leading up

397
00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:13,720
Speaker 3: to the trial. I honestly believe Joaquin's attorney just didn't

398
00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:16,080
Speaker 3: think he was even going to have to deal with George.

399
00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:18,760
Speaker 3: It was just going to be this eyewitness I D case.

400
00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:21,919
Speaker 3: And so he did, I think, a fairly good job,

401
00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:25,919
Speaker 3: you know, showing all these discrepancies between the descriptions and

402
00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:30,639
Speaker 3: what Joaquin actually looked like their own inconsistent statements and

403
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:33,000
Speaker 3: kind of the evolution of their ideas. He did a

404
00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:36,280
Speaker 3: nice job of showing that George Ofrella's timeline didn't make

405
00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:38,600
Speaker 3: any sense, that there was this like big gap in

406
00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,200
Speaker 3: between the way he says what they did that night

407
00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:44,600
Speaker 3: and how he drove Joaquin home his timelines that lines

408
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,439
Speaker 3: up with joaquines that Joaquin is home long before the

409
00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:51,359
Speaker 3: murder happens. But what he missed, what he didn't manage

410
00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:54,040
Speaker 3: to do, And one of the things I really respect

411
00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:56,280
Speaker 3: about him is that he actually gave us a declaration

412
00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:59,840
Speaker 3: saying he was ineffective because he didn't present to the jury.

413
00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:03,080
Speaker 3: The jury never heard that Joaquin's name came from the

414
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:06,480
Speaker 3: homicide inspectors first, and that they told Rilla essentially that

415
00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:09,320
Speaker 3: he had to identify Joaquin, So the jury just never

416
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:11,800
Speaker 3: heard that. What they heard instead was this guy who

417
00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:15,520
Speaker 3: knows Joaquin, who'd grown up with him around is saying

418
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:17,760
Speaker 3: he's the guy who was with me in my car

419
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:19,560
Speaker 3: and who got out and shot him. And then he

420
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:25,000
Speaker 3: hears that corroborated by these two independent eyewitnesses, and Joaquin's

421
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:29,760
Speaker 3: attorney presented witnesses who describe what Joaquin looked like that night,

422
00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:32,199
Speaker 3: how he had Jerry Curl in the short jacket, But

423
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,280
Speaker 3: he never presented the alibi witnesses. So they also didn't

424
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:38,400
Speaker 3: hear that Joaquin was at home with his one month

425
00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:40,840
Speaker 3: old son, and that they had a good reason to

426
00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:42,760
Speaker 3: remember that night because they were going to celebrate the

427
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:45,639
Speaker 3: one month anniversary of his birth the next day. So

428
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:49,199
Speaker 3: you know, they knew that George Verrella was incentivized, they

429
00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:51,879
Speaker 3: knew he got immunity, they knew he was in and

430
00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:54,600
Speaker 3: out of trouble. So it wasn't a super strong case

431
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:56,840
Speaker 3: even with what they heard. But what they never heard

432
00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 3: was anything else about someone else actually did it, or

433
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:02,919
Speaker 3: that Joaquin had this really credible alibi, and so they

434
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:08,840
Speaker 3: end up convicting him.

435
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 2: It don't matter if I'm trying to explain to you

436
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:20,359
Speaker 2: a thousand times, I cannot even feeling close to really

437
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:25,120
Speaker 2: really tell you how I feel when they come out

438
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:32,480
Speaker 2: with a guilty verity. You know, everything inside me stopped, everything,

439
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:39,119
Speaker 2: I stop reading, my heart stop. It is a feeling

440
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:48,840
Speaker 2: that that you can never you can never explain how

441
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:55,520
Speaker 2: it is that they find you guilty, especial find me

442
00:24:55,640 --> 00:25:01,080
Speaker 2: guilty or the moory of my bed framing that's all

443
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:04,560
Speaker 2: I really killed me? How can I be doing time

444
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 2: for the mony or my beayfriend made somebody that I

445
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 2: love even to today. I ended almost opened Pelican Bay

446
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:36,719
Speaker 2: presum in what the more taught prisum in the California

447
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:41,320
Speaker 2: system at the time. I see people when they told

448
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:44,159
Speaker 2: these people you go into Pelican Bay. I see grown

449
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:48,680
Speaker 2: Maine crumbled in the floor and crying when I was

450
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:52,720
Speaker 2: in some queen, you know. And I ask the people

451
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 2: and I say, hey, Main, why he crying? I said, man,

452
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 2: you don't know where we're going. He said, we're going

453
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:02,159
Speaker 2: to Pelican be And I said what aboudy? I said, Cuba,

454
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:06,840
Speaker 2: let me tell you mane, it is no joke. He said,

455
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 2: may wait until you get there. You know it was true.

456
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 2: You know when I gotta tell your Maine every time

457
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 2: that you heal alund sound in that prison, it was

458
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 2: not a first alarm. It was somebody got killed, you know.

459
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:31,720
Speaker 2: And I said, man, how did I ain't in there? Bo?

460
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:36,119
Speaker 2: My mind is still do not stopping play some trick

461
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,360
Speaker 2: on me? I remember, you know. I who to wag

462
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,119
Speaker 2: into my said go to sleep. And I had to

463
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 2: cover my head with the Blankee real tie and I

464
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:50,120
Speaker 2: had to close my eyes royal tie, and I hold

465
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:53,720
Speaker 2: to say, Main, when I open my eyes now, when

466
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,680
Speaker 2: I open my eyes, now, I know this is a three.

467
00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:00,439
Speaker 2: This is a three. I go and being home, we

468
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,919
Speaker 2: might sign with my baby's mama. This is a three, man,

469
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 2: This is a three. I went, I got Cobway might

470
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 2: sell I need the sall. You know, I say, wow, man,

471
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:19,639
Speaker 2: this is real mm hm.

472
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 1: So I gotta ask you, man, like, how did you

473
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 1: hold on to hope so much for all those years?

474
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:27,920
Speaker 1: Because I always always say, you know, for a person

475
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 1: that committed crime, it's hard, you know, to deal with

476
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:33,200
Speaker 1: the time, But for an innocent person sitting there, it's

477
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 1: a whole different level because you're going through everything, whether

478
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:41,719
Speaker 1: it's the violence in the prison, the abuse from the cops,

479
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 1: whatever it is, the CEOs, whatever it is. So how

480
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:47,920
Speaker 1: did you hold on the hope that you would get out?

481
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 2: You know why? In the beginning I watched completely ain't

482
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:57,160
Speaker 2: good with God? Everything that I got in my mayis

483
00:27:58,000 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 2: how did I go and prove that I don't do

484
00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:04,920
Speaker 2: the what I can do? You know? And the good

485
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:07,399
Speaker 2: thing about it is and thank God, you know, to

486
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 2: all the emails, you know, in every prison that I be, brother,

487
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:17,919
Speaker 2: in every priston that i'd be, every email, believe on me,

488
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,880
Speaker 2: they can see through into my heart. They can see

489
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 2: through into the type of man that I was. You know,

490
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 2: this call it homies homeboy. They asking me working and

491
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:37,920
Speaker 2: why are you here for? Man? And I say, man, brother,

492
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 2: they give me totally one year to life or a

493
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 2: model that I not come make. I'm taking God. They say, hey, man,

494
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 2: you know what, man, I believe you? What can I

495
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 2: believe you? And I say thank you man. And I

496
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 2: received so much respect. I receive the respect that the

497
00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 2: systems don't give it to me. I got any all

498
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:05,640
Speaker 2: these em the respect that deceased denight to me. I

499
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 2: got in it from all these people.

500
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 1: And page can you can you walk us through the

501
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 1: post conviction litigation? I mean didn't Evidently nothing worked for him.

502
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean you got to give Joaquin credit, like

503
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 3: he litigated his case to the nines, Like he got

504
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 3: himself into federal court. I know he had helped from

505
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 3: jail house lawyers. I have a lot of respect for

506
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 3: jailhouth lawyers. And I mean, unfortunately the courts just refused

507
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 3: to look at it and refuse to listen. But what

508
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 3: eventually happened was Joaquin had earned the respect not only

509
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 3: of other incarcerated folks, but also some of the free staff.

510
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:46,680
Speaker 3: And we were contacted by this guy Ray Leonardini, who

511
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 3: ran a meditation circle that Joaquin was a part of,

512
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:53,120
Speaker 3: and also Ellen egger Is a pro bono attorney who

513
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 3: have partnered with in a few cases, was helping another

514
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,160
Speaker 3: guy with parole who told her, you have to meet Joaquin,

515
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 3: like he's actually innocent and you need to help them.

516
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 3: And so Ellen went and met Joaquin. He told her everything.

517
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 3: She like everybody, found him very compelling and believable, and

518
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 3: so she The first thing asked her to do was

519
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 3: go talk to George Verilla's sister, Denise Courchier, and Alan

520
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 3: did that and Denise told her, my brother told me

521
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 3: that Joaquin is innocent, that it was another Cuban man,

522
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 3: and that the police really wanted Joaquin, and George was

523
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:29,960
Speaker 3: scared of them, and so he went along with what

524
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 3: they wanted. But what really turned the case around was

525
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 3: when Roberto Sacoro got out of prison. He went to

526
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 3: Cuba and he tracked down Joaquin's family and told them

527
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 3: that he personally knew that Joaquin was innocent because he

528
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:45,800
Speaker 3: had actually seen the whole thing from his motel room.

529
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:51,040
Speaker 1: And listeners, remember, Roberto Cicoro was another friend of Joaquin's.

530
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 1: The day before all of this happened, Roberto had killed

531
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 1: this other guy named Ruben Alfonso, and he was hiding

532
00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:00,080
Speaker 1: out at the Bay Bridge Motel, wading on Felix to

533
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 1: bring up some clothes when he heard Felix southside argon

534
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:04,240
Speaker 1: with Candido Diaz.

535
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 3: They had been fighting over a gun and not paying

536
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 3: for the gun, and so he recognized their voices and

537
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 3: they start coming in and out of his view, and

538
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 3: you know, he hears the gunshot and he runs out

539
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 3: and he sees Candido get into the white Monte Carlo

540
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 3: and drive away, and he basically broke down and apologized

541
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 3: to Joaquin's family and explained that while he was in

542
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 3: he'd been a shot caller initially, and so he felt like,

543
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 3: you know, in addition to the normal amount of trouble

544
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 3: you can get in in prison for stitching, that he,

545
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 3: especially as someone who'd sort of enforced those rules, would

546
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 3: be even more in danger. And for a long time

547
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 3: he'd hope to be able to get his own revenge,

548
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 3: that at some point Candido would get locked up and

549
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 3: he would be able to avenge Felix's death, and in

550
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:54,720
Speaker 3: some ways, fortunately that never happened, and instead he gets

551
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 3: out and tells the truth, and that really broke open

552
00:31:57,880 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 3: the case.

553
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 1: And Ellen also tracked a couple of people that George

554
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 1: Rilla had talked to and had told them Joaquin was innocent.

555
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 1: One was Joaquin's sister, Denise, and the other was a

556
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:10,240
Speaker 1: woman named Kadi Dad Gonzales.

557
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 3: She was friends with Nellie Hernandez, George's mother, and also

558
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 3: knew Joaquin through Nelly and through the Cuban community. George

559
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 3: tells her also, so it's very similar to what he

560
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 3: said to Denise, that he knows Joaquin is innocent and

561
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:26,800
Speaker 3: didn't do this. And so we had these two statements

562
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:29,720
Speaker 3: from George Verilla to two different people saying that Joaquin

563
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 3: was innocent and also saying that it was another Cuban man.

564
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 3: And so Candy ro Diez is not only Cuban but

565
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 3: also matches the original description. He was always had his

566
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 3: hair in an afro, He was known to wear long

567
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 3: trench coats. And it turns out he'd had this, you know,

568
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 3: ongoing and escalating feud with Felix Pasta Rica right before

569
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 3: the murder, and it all started over the weapon that

570
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 3: may actually have been used, A forty four, which was

571
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 3: actually the weapon they said was used to kill Felix

572
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 3: Pasta Rica. So Ellen had done most of the investigation

573
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 3: by the time she came to me. And it was

574
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 3: only the Roberto piece that came afterwards, but we really

575
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 3: felt like that pushed it over the top. And then

576
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 3: the Innocence Commission also got an eyewitness I D expert

577
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 3: to look at the eyewitnesses and just really explain and

578
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 3: under the social science that we now know even more.

579
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 3: While all of those, all the reasons eyewitness identifications are unreliable,

580
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 3: but we're especially so in this case.

581
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 1: Well not just unreliable. I believe one of the witnesses,

582
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 1: Kathleen Gavada, had another reason to identify Joaquin.

583
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:34,040
Speaker 2: You know, the same woman I say from the BORGINI

584
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 2: now that I hold the pa SHOLDI nimin, I only

585
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 2: atey poucing and later you know, to give you diffending

586
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 2: change and watch you see, well she gotla.

587
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 1: So, Paige, after all this new information you put in

588
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:52,960
Speaker 1: front of them, did the courts quickly agree that Joaquin

589
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 1: was innocent?

590
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:57,480
Speaker 3: I mean we expected them to, especially because the DA's

591
00:33:57,520 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 3: office was on.

592
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 1: Board, and that was District Ernie chess A Bodin, who

593
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 1: was repeatedly under fire from the police union and adversaries.

594
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 1: There were I think like two recall elections, so his

595
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:11,239
Speaker 1: political foot and was never secure, and he was the

596
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 1: one that was making the recommendation based on the Innocence

597
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 1: Commission findings.

598
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,600
Speaker 3: They had this separate Innocence Commission, right, that was supposed

599
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:22,319
Speaker 3: to be this independent body. It had DA's public defenders, experts,

600
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 3: law professors, you know, like this whole commission of different

601
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 3: stakeholders who all agreed Joaquin is fully innocent. And in

602
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 3: my experience, usually when that happens, the courts are pretty

603
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:35,239
Speaker 3: willing to go along pretty quickly, right. But unfortunately we

604
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:38,440
Speaker 3: had the exact opposite experience here, and I can only

605
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 3: imagine some of that was the politics going on in

606
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 3: San Francisco. The court essentially just the first thing they

607
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 3: did was ask us to do another round of briefing,

608
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 3: and they invited the Attorney General's office, in which you

609
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 3: know doesn't generally happen in superior court. But here's the

610
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 3: court saying, you know, District Attorney, I don't trust what

611
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:58,360
Speaker 3: you have to say, and so Attorney General, I'm inviting

612
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 3: you in to tell me something different. Fortunately, the AG's

613
00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 3: office also saw that this wasn't a case to oppose.

614
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:07,920
Speaker 3: Everything pointed to Jacquin's innocence. There's no reliable evidence of

615
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 3: guilt anywhere. But even after you know, a second round

616
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:14,920
Speaker 3: of briefing in the AG's office, refusing to come in,

617
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 3: they still had us have an evident you're hearing. And

618
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:20,520
Speaker 3: so here we are both sides arguing for the same thing.

619
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 3: So we're both presenting opening statements on Joaquin being innocent,

620
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 3: and then we're both doing closing arguments about how he's

621
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:29,880
Speaker 3: entitled to relief and how we all believe he's innocent

622
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:32,839
Speaker 3: and the judge should reverse his conviction. Luckily, by then

623
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:35,680
Speaker 3: we'd been switched to a different judge, was a really good,

624
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 3: experienced judge and just saw all the problems with the case.

625
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:43,840
Speaker 3: And then finally, on April eighteenth, the court reversed Joaquin's

626
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:48,240
Speaker 3: conviction and the district attorneys again announced he was innocent.

627
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:49,840
Speaker 3: They dismissed all of the charges.

628
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 2: Man, I almost fail to be fluw yes, to go

629
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:03,400
Speaker 2: out to the freedom that I want, denying for almost

630
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:05,799
Speaker 2: thirty two yeah, and I don't even know how to

631
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 2: make it all the way to the door, you know,

632
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,719
Speaker 2: And I keep walking. I'm walking, imagin you know, when

633
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 2: when they open the door to me and I see

634
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:20,400
Speaker 2: you know, I see pay ailing my son and my

635
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:24,399
Speaker 2: baby's mama. I see everybody. Man, it was too much

636
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 2: for me. I say, my god, it was a day unbelievable.

637
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:35,719
Speaker 2: This type of feeling. You have to really go through

638
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:38,640
Speaker 2: that for you can really have the thing what I'm

639
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:43,520
Speaker 2: talking about. It is unbelievable. It is unbelievable.

640
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:46,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm with you on that. And of course we're

641
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:50,440
Speaker 1: all super grateful to the Northern California Innocent Project and

642
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:54,240
Speaker 1: the fantastic work that they do because it's through them

643
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,240
Speaker 1: that people like Joaquin can you know, have a chance

644
00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:00,560
Speaker 1: to get back to this free world. So if anyone

645
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 1: want to show the Northern California Innocent Projects some love,

646
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 1: we'll have the link in the bios so you can

647
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:10,120
Speaker 1: do that. So we've got to the point of the

648
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 1: show where we do this thing called closing arguments. And

649
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:15,440
Speaker 1: first I want to thank you all for being here,

650
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 1: and I also want to ask y'all to share your

651
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:21,719
Speaker 1: final thoughts for the listeners, you know, anything that you

652
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:26,880
Speaker 1: want to say, any takeaway you may have, and page

653
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 1: I want to first start with you and then we

654
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 1: can close with Joaquin.

655
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 3: So the thing that I think we haven't done a

656
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:37,759
Speaker 3: great job of yet, especially in San Francisco is like,

657
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 3: we know, there was this era in which they were

658
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:44,920
Speaker 3: treating especially young black men terribly and saw themselves as

659
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:48,040
Speaker 3: like cleaning up the streets by somehow getting people involved

660
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 3: in homicides and throwing them away for life. And there

661
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 3: are six people who've been exonerated out of San Francisco,

662
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 3: all of them are black men, and five of them

663
00:37:56,280 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 3: are from this nineteen ninety era. They all have incredible story.

664
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:03,960
Speaker 3: You should look into all of them. Joaquin, Maurice Caldwell,

665
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 3: Antoine Goff, John Tennyson, and Kara mad Conley, who I

666
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 3: know you've already interviewed, But what we haven't done is

667
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 3: look back at what else went wrong there. So it

668
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:14,680
Speaker 3: shouldn't be luck of the draw, right whose cases get

669
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 3: looked at and who gets picked up? And so Headwoaquin

670
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:21,400
Speaker 3: not you know, convinced other incarcerated folks that he was

671
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,000
Speaker 3: innocent and then one of them meeting Ellen, like you know,

672
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 3: this luck of the draw thing. It's not okay for

673
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:30,880
Speaker 3: justice to be that arbitrary with what little justice exists

674
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 3: in our system. And so my hope and listeners, I'd

675
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:37,680
Speaker 3: love for you to encourage this is that we actually

676
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 3: look back there's four homicide investigators who were involved in

677
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 3: all of these cases. We could look at their cases,

678
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 3: We could look at all cases from this era. You know,

679
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:50,400
Speaker 3: cdcr's budget for this year is over fourteen billion dollars.

680
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:52,759
Speaker 3: Just imagine what would happen if we just spent a

681
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:56,879
Speaker 3: tiny fraction of that on actually looking for where things

682
00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 3: went wrong, starting with the places we already know things

683
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:03,279
Speaker 3: went Everybody should have a chance to prove themselves. No

684
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:05,400
Speaker 3: one's as bad as the worst thing they've ever done.

685
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:08,200
Speaker 3: And you know, these guys who have done all this

686
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 3: time like you are Land, like Yuki, and who have

687
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:13,120
Speaker 3: come out and shown like I mean, one of the

688
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:15,480
Speaker 3: things I just love also about what you've been doing

689
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 3: is just highlighting the humanity of people right whether they're

690
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:22,680
Speaker 3: incarcerated or not. We are all have this huge amount

691
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 3: to offer and give, and I just would love for

692
00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:28,400
Speaker 3: us to stop leaving so many people behind and really

693
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:32,960
Speaker 3: start focusing on using our resources in better ways.

694
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:35,880
Speaker 2: What I want to say, you know, to all be listening.

695
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:39,799
Speaker 2: I want to lay everybody know that what happened to

696
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:45,239
Speaker 2: me is continually happy right now, and the only way

697
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:47,960
Speaker 2: it can be at top we all have to come

698
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:52,160
Speaker 2: out together and do something about it. I always say,

699
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:57,200
Speaker 2: if we're capable to go to the moon, we have

700
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,319
Speaker 2: to be capable to prevent the anal same peace go

701
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:03,319
Speaker 2: to prison. Simple like that. How can you go to

702
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:07,359
Speaker 2: the moon but you cannot premain one person to go

703
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:11,160
Speaker 2: to prison. It domain saying I know right now, at

704
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:14,440
Speaker 2: this moment, in some part of the country in a

705
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:19,200
Speaker 2: court house, somebody's going to prison right now, being innocing.

706
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 2: It is no doubt in my mind. And he going

707
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 2: through for the same thing that I go through when

708
00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:29,440
Speaker 2: I was in that position. I know we can stop it.

709
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:33,120
Speaker 2: I know we can do so anything about it because

710
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 2: I know Number one is we need to make the

711
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:43,080
Speaker 2: dis Ratney accountable for any wrong doing that they do.

712
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 2: And I said the every dish Ratney. No, we got

713
00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 2: some really good dist rattorney that they do their job,

714
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:54,680
Speaker 2: they go by the law and they honest the people,

715
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:58,920
Speaker 2: how walking people. But we got some other one that

716
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:03,200
Speaker 2: they don't care, they don't kate. They want to wing

717
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:07,880
Speaker 2: our CAGs O this fasic or the egocent people. We

718
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:08,799
Speaker 2: have to stop. Doc.

719
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:17,879
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'm your guest host

720
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 1: Erline Woods. I like to thank executive producers Jason Flumm

721
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 1: and Kevin Waters for inviting me to be here. Good

722
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 1: Looking Special thanks to our wonderful production team Connor Hall,

723
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:34,480
Speaker 1: Annie Chelsea, Lila Robinson and Jeff Clyburn. The music in

724
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:38,440
Speaker 1: this production comes from three time Oscar numberee Jay Raff.

725
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction,

726
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:46,719
Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at

727
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 1: Rome Conviction, as well as Lava for Good. On all

728
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 1: three platforms. You can find me online at Erline Woods,

729
00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:56,920
Speaker 1: and you can find my podcast ear Hustle wherever you

730
00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 1: listen to podcasts. Wrongful Conviction is a productiontion a Blober

731
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one