1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:00,560 Speaker 1: O. 2 00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:04,360 Speaker 2: Let you know, USA listener, it's Mariino Hosam. I know 3 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:07,800 Speaker 2: that you're interested in the issue of immigration because you 4 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:10,800 Speaker 2: want to cut through and know what's real. So we're 5 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:13,319 Speaker 2: going to share an episode with you today from our 6 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 2: colleagues at Future Hindsight. It's going to give you the 7 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:23,599 Speaker 2: full historical and complicated picture of our broken US immigration system, 8 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 2: which by the way, has not been updated since the 9 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:31,160 Speaker 2: nineteen nineties. Host Mila Atmos is joined by Aaron Reichlin Melnick, 10 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 2: the policy director at the American Immigration Council, which is 11 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:39,599 Speaker 2: a nonprofit organization that looks to strengthen our country by 12 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:43,440 Speaker 2: shaping immigration policies and practices. They're going to talk about 13 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:46,840 Speaker 2: why they see the only cure to the challenge around 14 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:52,840 Speaker 2: immigration is comprehensive immigration reform coming from Congress. So here 15 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 2: you go. Take a listen. 16 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to Future Hindsight, a podcast that takes big ideas 17 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: about civic life and democracy and turns them into action 18 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 1: items for you and me. I'm Nila Atmas. Democracy is 19 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:22,040 Speaker 1: not a spectator sport, so we're here to bring you 20 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 1: an independent perspective about border rhetoric. Getting the full attention 21 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 1: of the media what's actually going on to help us 22 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 1: better understand American immigration policy and the kind of comprehensive 23 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:36,319 Speaker 1: reform that would be necessary to render a functional system. 24 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:40,560 Speaker 1: We're joined by Aaron Reichlan Melnick. He's the policy director 25 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:45,479 Speaker 1: at the American Immigration Council, a nonprofit organization that strives 26 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 1: to strengthen the United States by shaping immigration policies and 27 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:54,680 Speaker 1: practices grounded in evidence, compassion, justice, and fairness. Welcome erin, 28 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us, Thank you for having me. 29 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 1: We all know that immigration in the US is deeply dysfunctional, 30 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 1: and we also know that there are no easy answers. 31 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 1: In fact, it's so complex that it's safe to say 32 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:11,680 Speaker 1: that most Americans really don't have a firm grasp on 33 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:14,920 Speaker 1: what's happening. So justice at the stage, how would you 34 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:17,320 Speaker 1: describe a state of play when it comes to immigration. 35 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 3: I mean, the most important thing for people to know 36 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:23,800 Speaker 3: is that we haven't changed our immigration law since the 37 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 3: nineteen nineties. Our legal immigration system dates back to November 38 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:32,839 Speaker 3: nineteen ninety one, month before the first website went online, 39 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 3: and our current border enforcement and asylum system dates back 40 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 3: to nineteen ninety six, at a time when the Macharena 41 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 3: was the hit dance craze still sweeping the nation. 42 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 1: Wow. So if we think about the history of immigration 43 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 1: policy as being long and complicated, is this really the 44 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 1: main problem that it's old and outdated? 45 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:55,280 Speaker 3: That is a large part of it. So there are 46 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 3: some sort of systemic issues of how the system was designed, 47 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 3: ideas we had twenty seven thirty three years ago about 48 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 3: how a system should work that have proven to be 49 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 3: incorrect over the last quarter century. And then there's also 50 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:13,240 Speaker 3: the question of resources. Do you provide enough funding to 51 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 3: the system to ensure that it is working as intended? 52 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 3: And the answer is no. Congress hasn't provided enough resources 53 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:23,919 Speaker 3: to the system, so it isn't working as intended. But again, 54 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 3: even if it was working as intended, some of the 55 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:28,960 Speaker 3: ideas that people had twenty five years ago, you know, 56 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:32,080 Speaker 3: over a quarter century ago, just didn't turn out to 57 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 3: be correct, and we need to tweak those as well. 58 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 1: So let's unpack those. What are the ideas that were 59 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 1: incorrect and then what were the intentions. 60 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 3: I mean, one of the great examples is the flaws 61 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 3: with our legal immigration system. In nineteen ninety, Congress set 62 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 3: the number of visas that would be available in any 63 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 3: given year with an expectation about how many people should 64 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 3: be coming to the United States to benefit the country. 65 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 3: Those numbers have proven inadequate, but they are staturee ratory caps. 66 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 3: It is illegal to grant more visas beyond those certain numbers. 67 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 3: So as of today, there are more than four million 68 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 3: people waiting who have been approved for visas but can't 69 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 3: get them because they're in twenty to thirty or forty 70 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 3: or even longer year waiting times just to get legal status. 71 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 3: There are people today who have been approved for a 72 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 3: visa who cannot get that visa because they will die 73 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:29,559 Speaker 3: of old age first because there are so many people 74 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 3: in line in front of them. And that's in part 75 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:36,719 Speaker 3: because of the system Congress designed. They massively underestimated the 76 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 3: demand in short, and they made a couple of sort 77 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:42,680 Speaker 3: of structural decisions that exacerbated it, including, for example, that 78 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:46,720 Speaker 3: one country can only get seven percent of the global 79 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 3: visas in any given year. So that means that some 80 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 3: countries India, China, Mexico, and the Philippines, where there are 81 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:56,480 Speaker 3: large amounts of immigrants from those countries approved for visas, 82 00:04:57,040 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 3: get stuck in these backlogs because every year they can 83 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:01,920 Speaker 3: only get set percent of the pretty small number of 84 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 3: visas that are being handed out, but they apply and 85 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:07,840 Speaker 3: are granted for way more than seven percent. And that's 86 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 3: why Indian nationals in particular weight in backlogs that are 87 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:14,119 Speaker 3: routinely twenty to eighty years long. 88 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 1: Twenty to eighty years. I'm sorry, that's ridiculous. Well, I 89 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:21,279 Speaker 1: want to backtrack here a little bit, because are you 90 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 1: saying that the ideas that were wrong were the concept 91 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 1: that you should limit the numbers or is it that 92 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 1: there's a different idea that they got wrong. 93 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 3: Well, that's part of it. Is the first is that 94 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 3: they need to update the numbers, you know, again because 95 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 3: they came up with this idea of like, what does 96 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:41,479 Speaker 3: the United States need in terms of numbers of people coming? 97 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 3: And they came up with these ideas again before the 98 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:47,600 Speaker 3: World Wide Web existed, when the Soviet Union was still around, 99 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:53,039 Speaker 3: in this Cold War era, pre modern internet world that 100 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 3: doesn't exist anymore, and of course, what our economy needs, 101 00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:00,479 Speaker 3: who is coming and from where? We didn't know the time. 102 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 3: We could have predicted some things about how the Internet 103 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 3: was going to go, but we got a lot of 104 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 3: it wrong, and we didn't predict that, for example, there 105 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 3: would be a massive need for STEM workers coming from 106 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:15,160 Speaker 3: countries like India and China, and we set a bunch 107 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:18,920 Speaker 3: of visa numbers without being aware of that demand that 108 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 3: was going to quickly become a big thing within a 109 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:24,239 Speaker 3: few years when the dot com boom happened in the nineties. 110 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 3: Already within ten years after this law was passed, the 111 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:30,280 Speaker 3: backlogs were starting to grow significantly. And now we are 112 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:33,600 Speaker 3: in this point where there are Indian nationals graduating with 113 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:38,480 Speaker 3: master's degrees with PhDs from American universities today who find 114 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:41,599 Speaker 3: that they may have no realistic way of ever living 115 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:44,600 Speaker 3: here permanently, and they have to literally enter a lottery 116 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 3: to hope that they get one of the very limited 117 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 3: slots of h one BB's as available, or eventually they 118 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:52,719 Speaker 3: just give up and go to Canada or the United 119 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:55,920 Speaker 3: Kingdom or some other country that has a legal immigration 120 00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 3: system which can be amended more rapidly. You know, right now, 121 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:02,359 Speaker 3: Canada is eating our lunch when it comes to immigration 122 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:05,840 Speaker 3: because they have a flexible system that can be updated 123 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 3: rapidly in response to changes in labor demands. We don't 124 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 3: have that in the US. We literally have this system 125 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 3: that was created in nineteen ninety and that just by 126 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 3: and large has not been updated since that point. So 127 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 3: by losing out on the flexibility to respond to changes 128 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 3: in demand, changes in labor needs throughout the United States, 129 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 3: we are losing out on the world's best and brightest. 130 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 3: And we're also sending a message, you know, tying this 131 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 3: back into what's going on at the border, that the 132 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 3: only way to get here legally is to come to 133 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 3: the border and ask for asylum, which is not how 134 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 3: our legal immigration system should incentivize people. 135 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 1: M Yeah, I definitely want to talk about the border 136 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 1: and asylum seeking, but let's go at this from the 137 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 1: other side. We know that there's no silver bullet, and 138 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 1: we know that Congress needs to take action. So how 139 00:07:56,280 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 1: do you and the American Immigration consul envision comprehensive immigration 140 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 1: policy reform? Because obviously, you know, it's been thirty four 141 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 1: years since things have changed. Canada is eating our lunch. 142 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 1: But what would it look like to have something that 143 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 1: actually is adaptable to your point into the future and 144 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 1: really looks at all the nooks and crannies that we 145 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 1: need to address. 146 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the number one thing is we have 147 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 3: to do a big approach here. Yes, small scale change 148 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 3: is a good idea, and I don't want to discourage 149 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 3: small scale change because there are a number of small 150 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 3: fixes that can be made to fix obvious problems in 151 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:37,840 Speaker 3: the system. One great example of this is backlogs. Is 152 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:40,199 Speaker 3: I've mentioned all of these backlogs lead to situations where 153 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 3: people who are here on visas who bring their children 154 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 3: over as dependents. If they have to wait twenty years 155 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:47,960 Speaker 3: to get a visa, their children who they bring here 156 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:50,320 Speaker 3: legally grow up in the United States and then age 157 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 3: twenty one, their status is a derivative of their parent 158 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 3: expires and they have to leave. So these are kids 159 00:08:56,800 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 3: who grow up in the United States on visas here legally, 160 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 3: and this is a group that calls themselves documented dreamers, 161 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 3: and estimate there is about two hundred thousand kids in 162 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:07,679 Speaker 3: the country who basically have to self deport when they 163 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 3: turn twenty one. And Congress can fix that. There's bills 164 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:12,560 Speaker 3: out there, so you can do these small fixes, and 165 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:14,440 Speaker 3: I think Congress should do small fixes. But if you 166 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 3: really want to solve the bigger problems, you have to 167 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:19,560 Speaker 3: do something together. You have to look at what is 168 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 3: driving people to come to the border, and that is 169 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 3: both what's going on around the world, but it's also 170 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 3: the failures of our legal immigration system and the ways 171 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 3: in which the parts of the system do not function 172 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 3: together as a coherent whole to give people real viable 173 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:37,560 Speaker 3: alternatives if they want to ever come to the United States. 174 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:39,680 Speaker 3: You know, most people say, why don't they just get 175 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:42,840 Speaker 3: in line, But the reality is, for the overwhelming majority 176 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:45,559 Speaker 3: of people around the world, no line exists. It's a 177 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 3: myth that there is a line that they can even 178 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 3: get in. The closest thing is the Diversity Visa Lottery, 179 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 3: which twenty two million people applied for last year for 180 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 3: fifty thousand slots. If you are one of the lucky 181 00:09:56,840 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 3: fifty thousand out of those twenty two million who manage 182 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:01,840 Speaker 3: to get a visa, congratulations, that's your only way to 183 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 3: come here. But for most of the rest of the world, 184 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 3: unless you are the best in the brightest, and then 185 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 3: even if you are the best in the brightest, there 186 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 3: are still obstacles. So we really have to look beyond 187 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 3: the lens of just the US Mexico border and tackle 188 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 3: this as a more comprehensive whole. But that's sort of 189 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:19,280 Speaker 3: just my pitch for comprehensive in general. So like the 190 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 3: specifics here, one, we need to fund the asylum system. 191 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:25,560 Speaker 3: I mean, I think that is the key. We don't 192 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 3: have enough asylum officers. We don't have enough immigration judges. 193 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 3: We don't have enough people to enforce immigration law, even 194 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 3: if we want to do that. We don't have enough 195 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 3: people to deliver decisions. We don't have enough staff at 196 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:39,679 Speaker 3: the courts. We don't have enough staff in the legal 197 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 3: immigration system at the US Citizenship and Immigration Services. We 198 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:46,200 Speaker 3: don't have enough staff at US consulates abroad. Just systematically, 199 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:50,080 Speaker 3: the adjudication process, either for people who cross the border 200 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 3: irregularly or for people applying for benefits is broken. Six 201 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:56,719 Speaker 3: to seven to eight year weights are now common in 202 00:10:56,760 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 3: immigration court just to have a claim heard, and that 203 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:03,200 Speaker 3: is in part because of the high volume of people crossing. 204 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 3: But this is not a new problem. These numbers have 205 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:09,560 Speaker 3: been rising pretty much every few years for the last decade, 206 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 3: and despite the alarm bells ringing about the need for 207 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:17,560 Speaker 3: more funding, Congress continues to dribble out ten percent increases here, 208 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 3: fifteen percent increases. They are rather than going big and 209 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:26,439 Speaker 3: bold beyond that the legal immigration system, we really do 210 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 3: need to rethink these static caps and these seven percent 211 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 3: country quotas that are creating these huge backlogs. Know, one 212 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:37,199 Speaker 3: way to do this would be simply say no one 213 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 3: can wait in a backlog beyond the set number of years. 214 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 3: There's one proposal out there that would say if you've 215 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 3: been waiting for ten years or visa again, these are 216 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:47,080 Speaker 3: for people who are approved, that just says, all right, 217 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 3: you just get it at ten years. So you could 218 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:50,680 Speaker 3: do something like that. You could just cap it and 219 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:53,160 Speaker 3: say after a certain point, everybody just gets the visa 220 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:55,160 Speaker 3: after you've been waiting for that long enough, you can 221 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 3: increase the number of visas. I think that's very necessary 222 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 3: given again how much bigger the US population now is 223 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 3: than it was thirty years ago, and that is part 224 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 3: of the reason why you need to sort of increase 225 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 3: the immigration numbers to keep up with increasing demands for labor. 226 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 3: And then at the border, we really do need to 227 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 3: think through both alternate pathways to drive people away from 228 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 3: the border and again ways to deliver a decision on 229 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 3: whether or not someone gets to stay or has to 230 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 3: go in a reasonable period of time, not five six years. 231 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 1: Right, right, So tell us a little bit more about 232 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:35,320 Speaker 1: how the asylum process works, because I think this is 233 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:39,680 Speaker 1: a source of great confusion because people popularly think that 234 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:43,199 Speaker 1: you can show up at the border and ask for asylum, 235 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:45,160 Speaker 1: but actually you can also do that in your country 236 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:48,960 Speaker 1: of origin. So what are the steps? In broad strokes, 237 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 1: just people have an idea of like, who are these 238 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:54,880 Speaker 1: people who apply for asylum, and what's the process, how 239 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 1: long does it take, and what can we expect and 240 00:12:57,960 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 1: if you're funding it, what does that mean. 241 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, so a brief correction here, you actually can't apply 242 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 3: for asylum in your country of origin asylum. Asylum is 243 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:10,240 Speaker 3: a protection that is only available to people who are 244 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 3: physically present in the United States. 245 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 1: Thanks for the correction. 246 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:17,559 Speaker 3: This is distinct from refugee status, which you can apply 247 00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:21,439 Speaker 3: for outside of the United States. Both are about determining 248 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:25,080 Speaker 3: whether someone is a refugee. Asylum is about basically this 249 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 3: idea of we won't send you back, and refugee status 250 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 3: is we will agree that you're a refugee and take 251 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:35,199 Speaker 3: you in as part of an international process. So refugee 252 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 3: processing in the Western Hemisphere is done in collaboration with 253 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 3: the United Nations High Council on Refugees. They identify people 254 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 3: who are potential refugees. Those people are then referred to 255 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 3: the United States, screened by refugee officers, they go through 256 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:55,200 Speaker 3: several extensive rounds of vetting, security vetting, and then after 257 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:57,680 Speaker 3: all of that process is over, which can take upwards 258 00:13:57,720 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 3: of two to three years depending on where people are, 259 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 3: then they enter the United States legally as having already 260 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 3: been granted refugee status. They're already on a path to 261 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 3: a green card, and then after they get their green card, 262 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:13,680 Speaker 3: on a path to a citizenship. By contrast, asylum is 263 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 3: for people who come to our borders or come on 264 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 3: a visa and say I'm here, I'm in the US, 265 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 3: please don't send me back, I am a refugee, and 266 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 3: then it's up to the system to determine whether they 267 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 3: actually do meet the legal definition of a refugee. This 268 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 3: process happens a wide variety of different ways, and this 269 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 3: is part of the confusion. There's really no one standard 270 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 3: process that actually occurs. So in theory, how it works 271 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 3: for somebody who is supposed to come to the border 272 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 3: is they come to the border, they turn themselves into 273 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 3: a border patrol agent or go to a port of 274 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 3: entry and ask for asylum and say I fear persecution 275 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 3: in my home country. At that point, they are supposed 276 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 3: to be referred for what's known as a credible fear interview, 277 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 3: which is like an initial screening to determine whether their 278 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 3: claim meets a very easy threshold bar does it pass 279 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 3: the smell test. Basically, if they pass that screening, which 280 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 3: is supposed to happen in like seven to fourteen days, 281 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 3: then they get referred to immigration court where they have 282 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 3: to file an asylum application in front of an immigration judge. 283 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 3: The judge then decides whether or not to grant that 284 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 3: person asylum. If they lose at any stage of that process, 285 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 3: then they can be deported. Now, the problem is is 286 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 3: that breaks down a lot in practice because of these 287 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 3: resource constraints that I mentioned before. Credible fear exam interview 288 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 3: is the best example of this. In order to carry 289 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 3: out those credible fear interviews that initial smell test, you 290 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 3: need to have enough asylum officers to do those. Basically, 291 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 3: an asylum officcer can usually do about one a day, 292 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 3: maybe two a day if it's particularly fast. So if 293 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 3: you don't have enough asylum officers, you can't put people 294 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 3: through these credible fear interviews and right now there's less 295 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 3: than a thousand asylum officers. The bid administration is doing 296 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 3: more asylum credible fear interviews than any administration has ever 297 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 3: done in the past, and that works out to about 298 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 3: four hundred a day. There are more than four hundred 299 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 3: a day people crossing the border. So what happens in 300 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 3: those circumstances, well, what happens is the same thing that 301 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 3: happened in Obama and a Trump and now under Biden. 302 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 3: If you can't do the credible fear interview, then your 303 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 3: second option is to simply release the person and send 304 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:23,960 Speaker 3: them directly to the immigration's judge, so they skip the 305 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 3: credible fear stage and go straight to the judge where 306 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 3: they can file an asylum application, and then the judge 307 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 3: can decide to grant or deny. As of now, there's 308 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 3: three million cases in the immigration court stage and people 309 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 3: end up waiting five six years. All of this is, 310 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 3: of course solvable if you just give the system the 311 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 3: resources it needs to function. But Congress doesn't even fund 312 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 3: the asylum officers. They're actually paid for by fees that 313 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:50,840 Speaker 3: people pay in for regular immigration benefits like green cards 314 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 3: or citizenships or visas. Those fees paid for by users 315 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 3: go to fund asylum officers, because again, in nineteen ninety six, 316 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 3: Congress created this process. They decided that it should not 317 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:06,200 Speaker 3: be funded by Congress, it should be funded by fees 318 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:09,439 Speaker 3: because at the time they thought, well, this is probably 319 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:11,360 Speaker 3: only going to be a few thousand people a year, 320 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:13,320 Speaker 3: and so we don't really want to spend a bunch 321 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 3: of money on this when it's going to be a 322 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:17,680 Speaker 3: pretty small amount of the work that this agency does 323 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:18,800 Speaker 3: on a day to day basis. 324 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 1: Uh huh wow. Yeah, so things have changed. Things have 325 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:26,640 Speaker 1: changed a lot since nineteen ninety six, for sure, and 326 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:31,679 Speaker 1: the funding model doesn't work. But let's talk about the 327 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 1: numbers at the border, because of course people talk about 328 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 1: if you believe Fox News that the borders are open, 329 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 1: that there are droves of people crossing and smiling drugs, 330 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 1: et cetera, et cetera. And you've just described the situation 331 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:52,720 Speaker 1: with asylum officers and how underfunded it is and really 332 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:55,280 Speaker 1: why people end up getting released in order to go 333 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:59,399 Speaker 1: to immigration court. But if you were to have a 334 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:02,159 Speaker 1: conversation with somebody who is on the right it this 335 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:05,479 Speaker 1: person will not believe that the border is not open. 336 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:07,960 Speaker 1: What would you say how would you describe the situation. 337 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, the border is not open, But of course the 338 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 3: fundamental difficulties of having a discussion about that is that 339 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 3: there's no agreement on what it means to have an 340 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:21,159 Speaker 3: open border. If you ask me, an open border is 341 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 3: one that any person can simply walk across with no problem, 342 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:27,160 Speaker 3: without having to do anything. And for that, I would 343 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:29,960 Speaker 3: point to the border between states. New York and New 344 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 3: Jersey have open borders with each other. There are no 345 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:36,119 Speaker 3: checks when I cross between the two of them, or 346 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:38,359 Speaker 3: you know, between any state in the United States. No 347 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 3: one is checking my passport, nobody is confirming whether or 348 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 3: not I have a right to cross, and you could 349 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:46,199 Speaker 3: see similar things in the Schengen Zone. In Europe there 350 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:50,400 Speaker 3: are external border controls, but inside Europe there are open borders. 351 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,280 Speaker 3: You can go from France to Germany without having to 352 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 3: get your passport checked, and that is open borders. What 353 00:18:57,760 --> 00:18:59,639 Speaker 3: isn't open borders, you know, I would argue, is the 354 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:02,199 Speaker 3: situation we have today where people cross and then are 355 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 3: placed into an enforcement system. Some people who cross had 356 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 3: the immigration laws immediately enforced on them. They are rapidly deported, 357 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:13,440 Speaker 3: thousands of people every single month, But because of these 358 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 3: resource constraints. Other people get shunted into this long term system, 359 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:21,119 Speaker 3: you know, in order to figure out whether or not 360 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 3: they can stay permanently or not. And to me, that's 361 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 3: not an open border. That's a system that has broken down. 362 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 3: But at the same time, we have to keep in 363 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:34,000 Speaker 3: mind this idea that every single people person crossing is 364 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:37,480 Speaker 3: let in. That's just not true. Tens of thousands of 365 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 3: people are sent back to Mexico every month. Under the 366 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 3: Biden administration and the Trump administration, the Title forty two 367 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 3: Health Policy was in effect for three years, over two 368 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 3: point five million times. Border officials carried out expulsions of 369 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 3: people under that authority, which ended in May twenty twenty 370 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:58,159 Speaker 3: three when the COVID nineteen Public Health Emergency expired. And 371 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:00,400 Speaker 3: so this is not an open border when you over 372 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 3: millions of people being sent back to Mexico. But of 373 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 3: course not everyone was. And there are some people who 374 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:08,879 Speaker 3: say the border is open so long as a single 375 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,960 Speaker 3: person can cross and be released. And I think that's 376 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 3: what makes this conversation so challenging. There are just these 377 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 3: fundamental disagreements about what should happen. I would say, when 378 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 3: someone crosses our border, and expresses a fear of persecution. 379 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 3: We have to have a system to figure out whether 380 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:28,679 Speaker 3: or not they are bonafide refugees, because we know that 381 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 3: people cross our borders in these situations. That I mean 382 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 3: in the nineteen eighties, during death squads in Guatemala and 383 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:39,680 Speaker 3: El Salvador, during indigenous genocide in Guatemala, the Reagan administration 384 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:42,479 Speaker 3: turned away ninety seven to ninety eight percent of all 385 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:46,639 Speaker 3: people from those countries who were seeking asylum because geopolitically, 386 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:49,919 Speaker 3: it was a bad thing for the United States to 387 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:53,119 Speaker 3: admit that our allies in Central America were persecuting people. 388 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:57,920 Speaker 3: So we basically encouraged our government to turn away genuine 389 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:02,119 Speaker 3: bonafide refugees who were fleeing death squad And because we 390 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 3: haven't forgot that lesson, we built these protections into the 391 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:08,399 Speaker 3: law for a reason, the fundamental realities you don't know 392 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:11,119 Speaker 3: if a country is collapsing necessarily or for genocide is 393 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 3: about to occur until after it happens, and there are 394 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:15,520 Speaker 3: people who leave before it happens. And this is in 395 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,880 Speaker 3: nineteen thirty eight, we turned away Jews fleeing Nazi Germany 396 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 3: because at the time we thought, well, they might be 397 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:23,720 Speaker 3: German spies and because there were a number of anti 398 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:27,439 Speaker 3: Semites in the FDR administration. But the reason they gave was, 399 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,560 Speaker 3: we can't take all these German Jews fleeing Germany because 400 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:33,679 Speaker 3: some of them could be Nazi spies, and maybe some 401 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:35,880 Speaker 3: of them were, like I don't think there's any evidence 402 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:38,679 Speaker 3: of that, fleeing and particularly pretending to be Jews. But 403 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 3: the reason is, you know, at the time, there wasn't 404 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:44,879 Speaker 3: this idea. Nobody knew that the Holocaust was happening. People 405 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 3: were certainly giving a lot of alarm bells about it. 406 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,440 Speaker 3: But so we created this asylum system post World War 407 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:53,560 Speaker 3: two because we recognized it's not just about what happens 408 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:57,119 Speaker 3: during the Holocaust, it's what happens in the years before that, 409 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 3: when people start leaving and saying I will be secuted 410 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 3: if you send me back. Don't send me away, don't 411 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 3: turn me away, because we did that prior to World 412 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 3: War Two for Jews, and so we said never again, 413 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 3: and we created this international system of asylum protections so 414 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 3: that people can just show up at a border and say, 415 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:19,400 Speaker 3: if you send me back, I will be killed. And 416 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:21,879 Speaker 3: it's not a perfect system, obviously not, and there are 417 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 3: ways in which we can improve it and make it better. 418 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:25,440 Speaker 3: But I don't think it's the system that we should 419 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:27,879 Speaker 3: get rid of, Whereas there are many people who say, 420 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:29,680 Speaker 3: I just think it's time for us to move away 421 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:32,679 Speaker 3: from this concept. If you are facing persecution, just go 422 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:35,440 Speaker 3: to whatever country's closest to you. Don't come to our borders, 423 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 3: you know, don't do any of this. So if any 424 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:40,159 Speaker 3: person gets released, then that means it's an open border, 425 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:42,720 Speaker 3: and I just don't think that's true. But this is 426 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:46,199 Speaker 3: why we have such challenge having these conversations, because I 427 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:50,120 Speaker 3: think we aren't having these bigger conversations about asylum, about 428 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 3: you know, what do we do in a world of 429 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:55,399 Speaker 3: increased global displacement, And I think those are the conversations 430 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:57,160 Speaker 3: we should be having. You know, what does it mean 431 00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 3: to be the United States a nation that has traditionally 432 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 3: held itself out as a place of refuge in the 433 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 3: modern world. Is this a national ambition that we should 434 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 3: abandon or is this a national ambition that we should 435 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 3: double down on? And there, I think where the conversations 436 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 3: get most interesting, because then people can really start talking 437 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 3: about their real concerns about this. How do we make 438 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:20,880 Speaker 3: this system work? How do we uphold American values? 439 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:25,439 Speaker 1: Since you have just mentioned the larger displacement realities in 440 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:29,600 Speaker 1: the world that are contributing to migration flows everywhere to Europe, 441 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:33,680 Speaker 1: from North Africa or Africa or the Middle East, how 442 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 1: does the US fit into what's happening globally? 443 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 3: We are in a global displacement crisis. What's happening at 444 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:44,920 Speaker 3: the US Mexico border is not unique to the United States. 445 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:48,680 Speaker 3: There are tens of thousands of people crossing the Mediterranean 446 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:53,159 Speaker 3: in small boats every single year. Hundreds died. You know, 447 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 3: when these boats sink. They're landing in Greece and Italy 448 00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:58,879 Speaker 3: and other countries that are not run by democrats, that 449 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,440 Speaker 3: are not run by liberals. In the United Kingdom, there 450 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:05,640 Speaker 3: are thousands of people crossing the English Channel in small boats, 451 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:08,640 Speaker 3: to the point that this has become the defining political 452 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 3: crisis in the United Kingdom is what to do with 453 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 3: the small boats, what to do with immigration. So the 454 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:16,400 Speaker 3: idea that the United States is unique in this challenge here, 455 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:19,119 Speaker 3: this is something unique to President Biden just misses this 456 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 3: broader point. People are on the move and migration is 457 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 3: easier than it's ever been. Not only are people being 458 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:29,480 Speaker 3: forced out of countries due to wars and famine and 459 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:34,120 Speaker 3: climate change and political instability, but the act of leaving 460 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:37,240 Speaker 3: has become easier than ever thanks to changes in technology. 461 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:41,880 Speaker 3: Social media means that people can see images of their 462 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 3: compatriots who've gone to other countries splashed on their Instagrams 463 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:49,680 Speaker 3: and tiktoks and telegram, what have you, and WhatsApp in particular, 464 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:53,760 Speaker 3: So now diaspora stories are making their way back home 465 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 3: more easily than ever. And then the travel itself is 466 00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:01,200 Speaker 3: easier than ever because people can fly cheap. You now 467 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 3: have translation apps. You know, before, if you were someone 468 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:08,119 Speaker 3: from China and you needed to walk from Ecuador to 469 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:10,879 Speaker 3: the United States or a hitchhike from Ecuador to the 470 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:14,720 Speaker 3: United States, as people do today, the difficulty if you 471 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 3: didn't speak Spanish was enormous. But today you can literally 472 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 3: speak into your phone and have it perfectly translate converse. 473 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:24,720 Speaker 3: Not perfectly, but like close to perfectly translate conversations back 474 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 3: and forth between Mandarin and Spanish without much difficulty, in 475 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 3: a way that you never could do before, and that 476 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 3: has made the process of traveling easier than ever. Beyond that, 477 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 3: we also have to keep in mind that nations around 478 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 3: the world who are hostile to US foreign interests are 479 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 3: also recognizing this fact and have decided to sort of 480 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:47,440 Speaker 3: encourage migration because they know it quite frankly annoys US 481 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 3: as a nation. Venezuela, and Nicaragua, Ecuador all are countries 482 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:55,240 Speaker 3: in which the United States has strong diplomatic disagreements with, 483 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,240 Speaker 3: and Ecuador, for example, has made it so that virtually 484 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 3: any person in the world can fly to Equity. You 485 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 3: don't need a visa. You can just show up at 486 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:05,640 Speaker 3: the airport and Ecuador and they'll wave you into the country, 487 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,240 Speaker 3: and that is a stopping off by Nicaragua is now 488 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 3: doing the same. In November twenty twenty one, Nicaragua started 489 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 3: letting Cubans fly to Nicaragua without a visa for the 490 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:19,439 Speaker 3: first time, and that set off a mass exodus, with 491 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:23,200 Speaker 3: tens of thousands of Cubans leaving their country, which was 492 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 3: at the time, you know, in increasingly economically dire straits 493 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:30,600 Speaker 3: and political instability following the COVID pandemic. So tens of 494 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 3: thousands of Cubans left and went to Nicaragua and some 495 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,239 Speaker 3: stayed there, some went to Costa Rica, and a lot 496 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 3: of them went north to the United States. And so 497 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,280 Speaker 3: this is both a diplomatic issue and it's an issue 498 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:43,359 Speaker 3: of you know, the modern world and getting smaller and 499 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:44,240 Speaker 3: smaller than ever. 500 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:49,760 Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about the tensions around having exclusionary immigration 501 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:54,080 Speaker 1: laws and at the same time being this country that 502 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:58,120 Speaker 1: prides itself on being a place of refuge and where 503 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,680 Speaker 1: everybody can pursue the American dream. And since we are 504 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,920 Speaker 1: a pro democracy podcast, what is the case for fixing 505 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,480 Speaker 1: immigration for a country that believes in practice, in democracy 506 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 1: and in being a place of refuge. 507 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:15,920 Speaker 3: I firmly believe that the United States gets it strength 508 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,000 Speaker 3: from the fact that anyone can be an American. 509 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:18,600 Speaker 1: You know. 510 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:21,480 Speaker 3: That is to me a core thing that makes this 511 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,240 Speaker 3: country work. We believe that if they can contribute and 512 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,159 Speaker 3: become part of the community, they can become American. You know, 513 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:30,040 Speaker 3: on social media, I see all the time pictures going 514 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:33,439 Speaker 3: viral and people becoming US citizens waving the little American flag. 515 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 3: It is like, if you've ever been to a naturalization ceremony, 516 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:38,840 Speaker 3: it's such a joyous environment and I like encourage people 517 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:40,399 Speaker 3: to do that any time. 518 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:42,160 Speaker 1: I'm a naturalized American. 519 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:45,080 Speaker 3: So you know exactly, it is a joyous moment, but 520 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:47,840 Speaker 3: it's of course it's a complicated moment for everybody going 521 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,720 Speaker 3: through it. The feelings are not that simplistic. That said, 522 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 3: I do think we derive our strength in this country 523 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 3: from the fact that anyone can come here and become 524 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,679 Speaker 3: an American. We've got multiple members of Congress who are 525 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 3: themselves immigrants. We've had Secretaries of States who are immigrants. 526 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:04,199 Speaker 3: We've had Cabinet members who are immigrants. You know, this 527 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,200 Speaker 3: is something that we draw our strength from. And yet 528 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:12,399 Speaker 3: our immigration policies have frequently been exclusionist. We had explicitly 529 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,760 Speaker 3: racist immigration laws in effect from nineteen twenty four to 530 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 3: nineteen sixty five, and before then we had the extraordinarily 531 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 3: racist Chinese exclusion acts from eighteen eighty one onward. Then, 532 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:26,520 Speaker 3: you know, our first federal immigration laws ever were exclusionists. 533 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:30,640 Speaker 3: The Naturalization Act of seventeen ninety, which was in effect 534 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:34,440 Speaker 3: until nineteen fifty two, said that only free white persons 535 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 3: could naturalize, and so for the first nearly one hundred 536 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 3: and seventy five years of our country, we restricted naturalization 537 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 3: only to free white persons. There's actually extremely interesting Supreme 538 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 3: Court precedents about what it meant to be white. Were 539 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 3: Asians white? Our Mexicans white, Our Caucasian Aryans you know 540 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 3: from northern India? Are they white? Under the race science 541 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 3: was at the time. These are all legal case that 542 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:04,040 Speaker 3: had to be brought because of these restrictions. But in 543 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:06,480 Speaker 3: nineteen sixty five, we passed, in my opinion, the most 544 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:10,080 Speaker 3: important immigration law you know in modern history, which basically 545 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 3: got rid of these racial origins of our immigration system 546 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 3: and said, for the first time, America is open to 547 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:20,240 Speaker 3: anyone who can go through and navigate this legal process. 548 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 3: We will not turn away people based on where they 549 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:25,320 Speaker 3: come from. And it was part of the Civil Rights era. 550 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 3: It came within the same time as the Voting Rights 551 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 3: Act and the Civil Rights Act. It was part of 552 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:33,160 Speaker 3: this recognition of the United States as a multi racial democracy. 553 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 3: And so I think we have to acknowledge the exclusionary 554 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 3: tactics that our laws have adopted in the past, but 555 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,640 Speaker 3: lean into this view of the United States as a 556 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:47,600 Speaker 3: country that anyone can become a US citizen, anyone can 557 00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 3: become American, and make that our guiding vision going forward. 558 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 1: Yeah. Here here we talked about Congress already a little 559 00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:59,640 Speaker 1: bit about how Congress needs to take action and I 560 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:01,959 Speaker 1: think this conversation would not be complete to talk about 561 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:05,240 Speaker 1: the bill that failed in the House but of course 562 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:08,560 Speaker 1: passed and the Senate. What was in it? What did 563 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 1: you like about it? What did you not? 564 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, the Senate by partisan bill. It's a complicated bill 565 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 3: to talk about because it's a complicated bill. It was 566 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 3: a product of compromise. I think our biggest concern was 567 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 3: it wasn't a comprehensive bill. It was a border enforcement 568 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:26,040 Speaker 3: only bill that kicked a lot of other cans down 569 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:27,800 Speaker 3: the road by saying, you know, oh, we'll just only 570 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 3: do border It did represent a very real, serious efforts 571 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:35,480 Speaker 3: to tackle with what changes can you make to the 572 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 3: system to make it function. Unfortunately, as a product of 573 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 3: that compromise, it ended up more complicated than it should be, 574 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,280 Speaker 3: to the point where it might not have worked. And 575 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:48,960 Speaker 3: I think that that hampered it to some extent. But 576 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 3: certainly it was a very significant increase in border enforcement. 577 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 3: But it also came with the resources, and I think 578 00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:00,280 Speaker 3: that is something that has sort of gone not talked 579 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:02,480 Speaker 3: about as much. It would have led to the hiring 580 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 3: of thousands of new asylum officers, over one hundred and 581 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 3: fifty new immigration judges, more funding for processing people, more 582 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:14,560 Speaker 3: funding for supporting state and local communities. Basically, this sort 583 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 3: of massive infusion of funding that is necessary for a 584 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 3: system that's buckling under its own weight, and that in 585 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:23,960 Speaker 3: and of itself would have made a hugely positive difference. Unfortunately, 586 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 3: the discussion very quickly got derailed into a bunch of 587 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:30,640 Speaker 3: largely inaccurate talking points. You heard some people saying, oh, 588 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 3: it required four thousand people to be allowed into the country, 589 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,800 Speaker 3: a date that flagrantly falls. What it said is that 590 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:40,720 Speaker 3: when border crossings rise above a certain level, at that point, 591 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:44,360 Speaker 3: the border gets shut down and they stop letting people 592 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,000 Speaker 3: ask for asylum, though they would still have allowed some 593 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:50,040 Speaker 3: people to ask for a slightly harder to win form 594 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 3: of protection known as withholding of removal, which offers fewer 595 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 3: benefits and it's more difficult to obtain. So it's not 596 00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,120 Speaker 3: that nobody would get asylums screenings for protection, it's just 597 00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:01,840 Speaker 3: far fewer people would get screenings for protection, and it 598 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,280 Speaker 3: would have sort of allowed the US government to simply 599 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,880 Speaker 3: turn people away, potentially sending them to Mexico, though no 600 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 3: one ever answered the question of whether Mexico gave the 601 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 3: approval for this, and if Mexico said no, then this 602 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:18,080 Speaker 3: bill's practice of simply sending back to Mexico obviously couldn't happen. 603 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,360 Speaker 3: You can't do that without Mexico's permission. But I think 604 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:25,160 Speaker 3: broadly speaking, it was a serious effort to address these challenges, 605 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:27,160 Speaker 3: and even if it didn't get the balance exactly right, 606 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:31,600 Speaker 3: it's great that people were having serious conversations about it. Unfortunately, 607 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:36,480 Speaker 3: it's very very, very very hard to have serious conversations 608 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 3: about immigration policy today in Washington, DC. 609 00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:42,320 Speaker 1: Well, since it was just a border bill primarily, which 610 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:45,360 Speaker 1: I didn't fully understand until you just explained it. What's 611 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:48,320 Speaker 1: the role of states in securing the border? The state 612 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 1: of Texas past Senate Bill four which aimed to take 613 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:53,760 Speaker 1: matters in its own hands. But I think this bill 614 00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:56,840 Speaker 1: is very poorly understood. What was this bill meant to achieve, 615 00:32:57,400 --> 00:32:59,720 Speaker 1: what's the controversy and how do you expect this to 616 00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:01,040 Speaker 1: play out in the long term. 617 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, Texas SB four is an attempt by Texas to 618 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,520 Speaker 3: create its own immigration system, and I think it should 619 00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 3: be properly understood that Texas wants to enforce immigration laws 620 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,560 Speaker 3: and carry out deportations on its own without the federal government. 621 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 3: Being involved, and that's not allowed. The US Constitution is 622 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 3: pretty clear on this, well, at least as has been 623 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,240 Speaker 3: interpreted for the last century and a half, that immigration 624 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 3: is a federal authority, and Texas's bill has a lot 625 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:32,960 Speaker 3: of weird things in it because it's not a federal bill. 626 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 3: For example, under the bill, a Texas judge could order 627 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:41,800 Speaker 3: someone who is seeking asylum to walk back into Mexico 628 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:44,040 Speaker 3: at threat of twenty years in state prison if they 629 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:47,960 Speaker 3: say no, even if the person is already in the 630 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:51,560 Speaker 3: process of applying for asylum with the federal government and 631 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:54,640 Speaker 3: the federal government has said that they can stay. So 632 00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:56,560 Speaker 3: you would have a system where you could have the 633 00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,280 Speaker 3: federal government saying no, no, no, this person can stay 634 00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 3: and go through a prim and the state saying, if 635 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:03,320 Speaker 3: you don't leave, will throw you in prison for twenty years. 636 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:06,840 Speaker 3: And because we have a supremacy clause, the federal government 637 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:10,080 Speaker 3: wins out in that circumstance. And this sort of threatens 638 00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:12,840 Speaker 3: to throw a ton of confusion into it s before 639 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:16,280 Speaker 3: also allows state law enforcement across the state to arrest 640 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:20,080 Speaker 3: people that they suspect across the border illegally, even if 641 00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:22,640 Speaker 3: they've been here for decades, so you can have it 642 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 3: go after long term on documented immigrants, even though it's 643 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:27,719 Speaker 3: not just people at the border, but broadly speaking, you 644 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:30,800 Speaker 3: know why did Texas do this. It's because Texas wants 645 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,759 Speaker 3: to be the people who can arrest people, send them 646 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,480 Speaker 3: to jail for crossing the border illegally, and deport them 647 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:38,680 Speaker 3: because they think the federal government isn't doing it enough. 648 00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:42,520 Speaker 3: They've poured ten billion dollars into Operation Loan Star over 649 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:47,120 Speaker 3: the last three years, ten billion dollars, and the end 650 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:50,440 Speaker 3: results has been basically no net reduction in migration across 651 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:53,120 Speaker 3: the border at all. And I think even if they 652 00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 3: were allowed to put this law into effect, I think 653 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,040 Speaker 3: they would very quickly find that, as the federal government 654 00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:00,880 Speaker 3: has found over the last twenty years or really fifty 655 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:03,640 Speaker 3: years of trying to patrol the border, it's just not 656 00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:06,200 Speaker 3: that easy. You know, when you look down at what 657 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 3: they've done with the barbed wire and the razor wire, 658 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:11,080 Speaker 3: that represents about one to two percent of the Texas 659 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:15,080 Speaker 3: Mexico border total. So yeah, you can spend billions of 660 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:18,879 Speaker 3: dollars and have a National Guard troop every five feet 661 00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:21,840 Speaker 3: along the border if you're covering about five six miles 662 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:24,439 Speaker 3: or ten miles of the border, but Texas is nine 663 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 3: hundred miles of border with Mexico, and it is not 664 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 3: something that scales as easily when you're not doing it 665 00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:34,080 Speaker 3: in a major metro area, which is where they're doing 666 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:35,680 Speaker 3: it now. They're doing it in the city of Eagle 667 00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:38,000 Speaker 3: Pass and the city of Brownsville and the city of 668 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:41,160 Speaker 3: El Paso. Well, okay, that's that's again all well and 669 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:43,840 Speaker 3: good when you're five minutes from the nearest major highway, 670 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:47,000 Speaker 3: But if you're doing it fifty miles from there in 671 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:50,680 Speaker 3: farmland or mountains, it is just not as easy to 672 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,160 Speaker 3: patrol the border as Texas is trying to pretend they're 673 00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:56,600 Speaker 3: doing here, And you can't do the kind of policies 674 00:35:57,200 --> 00:36:00,200 Speaker 3: at scale, you know, even if you can like physically 675 00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:03,239 Speaker 3: shut off one percent of the Texas Mexico border, it's 676 00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:05,440 Speaker 3: the other ninety eight percent that's the concern. And the 677 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:07,920 Speaker 3: United States actually found out on the federal level in 678 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:11,200 Speaker 3: the nineteen nineties. The big thing was Operation Hold the 679 00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:14,640 Speaker 3: Line in nineteen ninety four because at the time people 680 00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:16,839 Speaker 3: were crossing in the really easy sections. We didn't really 681 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:18,719 Speaker 3: have any border walls at the time, so people were 682 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:22,640 Speaker 3: crossing in San Diego in Olpaso and Nogaules, Arizona, like 683 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:26,640 Speaker 3: within a mile of the regular border crossing points in 684 00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:29,440 Speaker 3: the middle of cities. And what the US found is 685 00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:31,960 Speaker 3: you can close off those areas. It's not too difficult 686 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:33,759 Speaker 3: to do that, and you put up walls, you know, 687 00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:36,040 Speaker 3: you flood the area with border patrol agents, and people 688 00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:39,799 Speaker 3: stop crossing in those those narrow, smaller areas. But what 689 00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:42,320 Speaker 3: happened was everybody just started going to the mountains and 690 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,720 Speaker 3: to the more dangerous spots of crossing, and crossings didn't stop. 691 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:48,879 Speaker 3: And so Texas I think, if they ever did get 692 00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:51,399 Speaker 3: a chance, would become the dog that caught the car. 693 00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:53,319 Speaker 3: They would find out that you know, what might be 694 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:56,440 Speaker 3: really easy if you throw billions of dollars at it, 695 00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:58,400 Speaker 3: which is shutting off this one to two percent of 696 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:00,920 Speaker 3: the border, becomes a lot harder when you're trying to 697 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:01,719 Speaker 3: go everywhere else. 698 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:07,440 Speaker 1: Now that we know we really need comprehensive immigration reform, 699 00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:10,000 Speaker 1: what are two things an everyday person can do to 700 00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:16,440 Speaker 1: advance something comprehensive. Do they go to their elected representative 701 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:17,920 Speaker 1: or what is it that people can do? 702 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:21,120 Speaker 3: I think there's there. I'll focus on two things. One, yes, 703 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:25,160 Speaker 3: talking to your representative, let them know that, you know, 704 00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:27,319 Speaker 3: more funding for the system, more funding to make the 705 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:31,280 Speaker 3: system work, and really moving away from this border only 706 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:34,520 Speaker 3: idea of the system. If all you're doing is looking 707 00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:36,759 Speaker 3: at the US Mexico border and you're not looking at 708 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,680 Speaker 3: anything else in the immigration process, you're not going to 709 00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:42,520 Speaker 3: solve the broader problems. People aren't going to come to 710 00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:44,720 Speaker 3: the US Mexico border if they do have a viable 711 00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:47,240 Speaker 3: path to come here legally. Nobody's going to throw themselves 712 00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:50,759 Speaker 3: into the hands of smugglers if they could just get 713 00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:53,000 Speaker 3: in an actual line, you know, if there was a 714 00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:55,360 Speaker 3: line to stand in. But there isn't, and so people 715 00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:58,680 Speaker 3: do end up in those circumstances. So contacting your representatives 716 00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:02,320 Speaker 3: and asking them to not just what's happening in the border, 717 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:05,400 Speaker 3: but the between ten and a half and fifteen million 718 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:08,759 Speaker 3: undocumented immigrants in the country, finding a path for them 719 00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:11,400 Speaker 3: to adjust their status, pay a fine. You know, this 720 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:13,879 Speaker 3: is very very popular among the American public, is give 721 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:18,120 Speaker 3: people a path to legal status that requires them to 722 00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:21,960 Speaker 3: go through a system, pay, get background checks, do whatever 723 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:24,200 Speaker 3: it has maybe, but you know, get their papers right. 724 00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:27,200 Speaker 3: That's very very popular among the American public, But we 725 00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:29,960 Speaker 3: aren't having that conversation in DC anymore because all we're 726 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:32,439 Speaker 3: doing is talking about the border. And so I think 727 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:34,680 Speaker 3: that's part of it. It's contacting a representative and let 728 00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:36,680 Speaker 3: them know it's not just the border. You care about 729 00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:39,200 Speaker 3: other things. And the other thing I think is to 730 00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:44,040 Speaker 3: model inclusion and welcoming in your communities. People want to 731 00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:47,839 Speaker 3: feel welcomed. They want to understand that when they arrive 732 00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:51,319 Speaker 3: in this country they can become American, they can go 733 00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:55,000 Speaker 3: through a process. And it is about presenting a positive 734 00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:57,960 Speaker 3: vision of immigration in the United States and modeling that 735 00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:01,160 Speaker 3: in your personal life, whether that's volunteering for local organizations, 736 00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:05,560 Speaker 3: talking to local politicians, about finding ways for new arrivals 737 00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:10,680 Speaker 3: to get professional licensing if they're taking certain jobs, you know, 738 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:14,600 Speaker 3: things along those lines. Welcoming policies which are applicable both 739 00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:17,560 Speaker 3: to new immigrants coming here through the legal immigration system 740 00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:19,680 Speaker 3: and to people who are waiting in these six, seven, 741 00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:24,120 Speaker 3: eight year asylum backlogs, because as they go through this process, 742 00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:27,640 Speaker 3: they are they have permission to be here. Eventually they 743 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:31,160 Speaker 3: often get permission to have a work permit. So until 744 00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:33,279 Speaker 3: we get rid of these backlogs, we have to deal 745 00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:35,919 Speaker 3: with the reality that these are people, These are people 746 00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:38,560 Speaker 3: who want to work, These are people who want to contribute. 747 00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:41,040 Speaker 3: They didn't come here to sit around in a shelter. 748 00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:43,680 Speaker 3: But one of the reason they are sitting around in 749 00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:47,400 Speaker 3: a shelter is because Congress in nineteen ninety six decided 750 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:49,680 Speaker 3: to make it illegal for asylum seekers to get a 751 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,839 Speaker 3: work permit until six months after they apply for asylum. 752 00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:55,680 Speaker 3: So literally we say, you've gotten here. All you have 753 00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:57,680 Speaker 3: is the clothes on your back. You've sold every possession 754 00:39:57,719 --> 00:39:59,759 Speaker 3: you have to make the journey here. Oh and by 755 00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:01,480 Speaker 3: the way, and when you get here, you're not allowed 756 00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:04,520 Speaker 3: to legally work for months. Getting people to model like 757 00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:08,839 Speaker 3: better ways to get people through those initial months of 758 00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:11,920 Speaker 3: a new country. You don't speak the language all, but 759 00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:13,799 Speaker 3: all you want to do is keep your head down 760 00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:16,319 Speaker 3: and work and find a way to support yourself while 761 00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:18,839 Speaker 3: you go through this process. Finding ways that communities can 762 00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:22,759 Speaker 3: help people get to self sufficiency is something that I 763 00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:25,759 Speaker 3: think the average person can help with, whether it is volunteering, 764 00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:29,640 Speaker 3: donating food, donating clothes, talking to local politicians, you know, 765 00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:32,240 Speaker 3: building support for seeing this as not just a challenge, 766 00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:34,480 Speaker 3: but as an opportunity for communities. 767 00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:38,240 Speaker 1: MM hmm, yeah, good advice. So here's my last question 768 00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:42,040 Speaker 1: looking into the future. What makes you hopeful. 769 00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:45,480 Speaker 3: You know, building off of that last thing, I'm hopeful 770 00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:48,239 Speaker 3: because there are still people every single day who get 771 00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:51,240 Speaker 3: up and they go and they volunteer and they help people. 772 00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:54,720 Speaker 3: In the immigrant rights movement, you come across the most 773 00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:57,399 Speaker 3: selfless people that you've ever met. You Know, people often 774 00:40:57,440 --> 00:40:58,920 Speaker 3: say like, well, why don't you host these, you know, 775 00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:01,080 Speaker 3: immigrants in your house therapy people who do that. There 776 00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:03,640 Speaker 3: are people who take in new arrivals who don't have 777 00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:06,040 Speaker 3: anywhere to sleep and let them use the spare bedroom 778 00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:07,600 Speaker 3: for a few weeks while they get on their feet 779 00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:11,120 Speaker 3: or for longer, who make new friends, who help children 780 00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:13,880 Speaker 3: who are caught up in this thing that their parents 781 00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:16,480 Speaker 3: are going through, who help them feel welcome, who bring 782 00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:19,680 Speaker 3: them toys, who help them get integrated into school. And 783 00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:22,400 Speaker 3: what makes me optimistic is the way that you know, 784 00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:25,320 Speaker 3: we're ten years into this. In many ways, this increase 785 00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:27,719 Speaker 3: in asylum seekers under the Obama administration, there are people 786 00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:29,560 Speaker 3: who have been volunteering for the last ten years, and 787 00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:32,400 Speaker 3: there are new volunteers. They're coming in every day to 788 00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:37,200 Speaker 3: take part in welcoming the people to this country, and 789 00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:41,120 Speaker 3: also you know, who believe in treating everyone like a 790 00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:45,000 Speaker 3: person and recognizing, sure, some people do bad things, let's 791 00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:48,360 Speaker 3: not pretend that otherwise. Obviously, there are bad actors, but 792 00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:52,000 Speaker 3: the overwhelming majority of people crossing today are everyday folk 793 00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:55,520 Speaker 3: who want safety and security for themselves and their loved ones. 794 00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:59,200 Speaker 3: And I'm optimistic because I still see so many people 795 00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:02,640 Speaker 3: coming forward and keeping that humanity in mind about who 796 00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:05,200 Speaker 3: these people are, you know, and not seeing them as 797 00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:08,040 Speaker 3: some scary monolith here to come to steal all of 798 00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:11,400 Speaker 3: our you know, to murder everybody. Obviously, again, yes, of 799 00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:14,120 Speaker 3: course there are bad people, but in any group of 800 00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:18,640 Speaker 3: sufficient size, US citizens, immigrants, lawful, unlawful, what have you, 801 00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:21,279 Speaker 3: there'll be some bad actors. But the overwhelming majority of 802 00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:24,000 Speaker 3: people are just people who want to make a better life. 803 00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:26,480 Speaker 3: And we can extend our hands and welcome. And it 804 00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:28,600 Speaker 3: makes me optimistic to know that there are still people 805 00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:29,120 Speaker 3: who do that. 806 00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:33,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, here here, that is indeed very hopeful. Thank you 807 00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:36,239 Speaker 1: very much, Erin for joining us on Future Hindsight. It 808 00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:38,120 Speaker 1: was really a pleasure to have you on the show. 809 00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:40,080 Speaker 3: Thank you very much for having me. 810 00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:44,160 Speaker 1: Ann right Land. Melnick is the policy director at the 811 00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:53,240 Speaker 1: American Immigration Council. Before I go, first of all, thanks 812 00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:56,440 Speaker 1: so much for listening. If you like this episode, you'll 813 00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:59,239 Speaker 1: love what we have in store. Be sure to hit 814 00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:02,560 Speaker 1: that falla button on Apple Podcasts or the subscribe button 815 00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:05,640 Speaker 1: on your favorite podcast app so you'll catch all of 816 00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:10,640 Speaker 1: our upcoming episodes. Thank you. Oh and please leave us 817 00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:13,880 Speaker 1: a rating and a review on Apple Podcasts. It seems 818 00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:16,160 Speaker 1: like a small thing, but it can make a huge 819 00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:19,640 Speaker 1: difference for an independent show like ours. It's the main 820 00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:22,520 Speaker 1: way other people can find out about the show. We 821 00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:28,160 Speaker 1: really appreciate your help. Thank you. This episode was produced 822 00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:32,719 Speaker 1: by Zach Travis and me. Until next time, Stay engaged. 823 00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:42,360 Speaker 1: This podcast is part of the Democracy Group