1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:01,960 Speaker 1: The volume. 2 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:15,840 Speaker 2: This is Straight Fire with Jason McIntyre. What is up, 3 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 2: straight firefam, It's me Jason McIntyre. Straight Fire for Thursday, 4 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 2: February twenty ninth. Happy Leap Yeer Day to all those 5 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 2: who celebrate. And oh my goodness did I celebrate last night? 6 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:35,479 Speaker 2: What a night you had the Lebron comeback against the 7 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:38,880 Speaker 2: paper Clips. I was at a dinner with a buddy 8 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:42,559 Speaker 2: and some other folks and we were watching the tail 9 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 2: end of that game. It was just an incredible comeback 10 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 2: by Lebron. And also, not to be unmentioned, hit a 11 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 2: five team parlay in college basketball. A five teamer. I'm 12 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 2: telling you, these moneyline parlays are crazy in college hoops. 13 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 2: Foolishly I bet Arizona State separately. That will not be done. 14 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 2: Once again, great podcast today, John orand he covers the media, 15 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 2: the sports media. He worked at Sports Business Journal forever. 16 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 2: I think the first time I met him it was 17 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 2: like the upfront week for ESPN. I decided to go 18 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:21,119 Speaker 2: and see what it was all about. And ESPNPR got 19 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 2: some media people to have lunch beforehand. At this damn it, 20 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:27,040 Speaker 2: I'm spacing on the name of the place in Times Square. 21 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:30,760 Speaker 2: I have amazing hush puppies. I can't believe I forgot 22 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 2: the name of the place. Anyways, and I roll up 23 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 2: to the table, I'm like, oh, it's John o'rand. I 24 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 2: recognize your picture from the Sports Business Journal. And that 25 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 2: was the first time I met him, must have been 26 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:42,000 Speaker 2: like fifteen years ago. And anyways, we talk a little 27 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 2: bit about sports media. For those of you who are 28 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 2: not interested in sports media, I get that, but at 29 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 2: least fast forward to the end for the Stephen A. 30 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 2: Smith part. I just want you to hear it. Anyways, 31 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 2: just so I'm on record with that. At any rate, 32 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 2: I'll be brief on Lebron. Paper Clips are leading by 33 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 2: twenty one in the fourth Lebron and it was Lebron 34 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 2: put the Lakers on his friggin back at thirty nine 35 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:09,360 Speaker 2: years old, had the largest comeback of his career for 36 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:12,679 Speaker 2: any Lebron team in the fourth quarter. He had nineteen 37 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 2: points in the fourth. Just I mean, it was an 38 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 2: unbelievable performance. The assists, the scoring, the paper Clips could 39 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:23,920 Speaker 2: not stop him. Now, Paul George did not play. I 40 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 2: know you want to put an asterisk by it, fine, 41 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 2: but to lead by twenty one, because remember, if they 42 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 2: lead by twenty one and win by twenty one. It's like, oh, 43 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 2: the Lakers can't even beat the Clippers. When I say, 44 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 2: Paul George, what a joke. And then the Lakers pull 45 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 2: off the comeback. Well, the Clippers did that, Paul George, 46 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 2: I don't want to hear it. Guys. If you watched 47 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 2: any of that game, any of it, go look at 48 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:47,640 Speaker 2: the highlights. The Clippers were in total control in the 49 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:49,800 Speaker 2: middle portion of that game, in the early fourth quarter, 50 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:53,639 Speaker 2: and Lebron exerted his will and the Lakers came back 51 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 2: for a massive, massive w. And listen, the West is 52 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 2: so jumbled. I mentioned it yesterday. The MAVs lose two 53 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 2: games in a row and fall from fifth to ninth 54 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:08,360 Speaker 2: in the West. The Lakers win and keep the Warriors 55 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 2: at bay because the Warriors seem to be coming on. 56 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:13,919 Speaker 2: And now it's the Sacramento Kings who lose two in 57 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:16,520 Speaker 2: a row and they fall out from the top six 58 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 2: into the plane. You don't want to be in the 59 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 2: play in, folks, because you likely will have to see 60 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:26,920 Speaker 2: Luca Lebron Steph Curry three of those four possibly the Suns. Now, 61 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 2: the Suns win and they are now up to fifth. 62 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 2: It's just wild. These swings five through ten separated by 63 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 2: a mere three and a half games. The West is 64 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 2: just getting absolutely bonkers. Yeah, very enjoyable NBA stretch run 65 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 2: and of course college basketball. But without further ado, let's 66 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 2: get to our guest, John o'rand of Puck News. You know, 67 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 2: Jason likes to think he knows everything when it comes 68 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 2: to sports. I know what sports fans want, but for 69 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 2: everything he doesn't. He's a guy who does. 70 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 1: Let's just say, I know a guy who knows a 71 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 1: guy who knows another guy. 72 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 2: All right, let's welcome into straight fire a guest. I 73 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 2: don't think he's been on in a minute. He's so 74 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:14,839 Speaker 2: busy covering sports media, the leagues. I mean, listen, there's 75 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 2: a lot on his plate, and he just got a 76 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 2: new job. Moving from the venerable sports business journal to 77 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 2: Puck and new media is like basically gonna be a 78 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 2: fun topic today. Let's welcome and John o'ran. John, how 79 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 2: you doing? Man? 80 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 1: Doing great? 81 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 2: Man? 82 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 1: Glad to be on. I've been covering you since the 83 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 1: big lead days, way back when when you were the 84 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:39,240 Speaker 1: anonymous reporter. Everybody's like, do we know who this is? 85 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:43,600 Speaker 2: That was great Wow, that was two thousand and six seven. Maybe, 86 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:46,279 Speaker 2: my goodness, that feels like forever. It was forever ago 87 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:49,839 Speaker 2: at the time you were at you. 88 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:53,480 Speaker 1: I started at SBJ in two thousand and six. I 89 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:55,119 Speaker 1: had been there for eighteen years. 90 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:57,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And this new move to PUCK. 91 00:04:57,640 --> 00:04:59,359 Speaker 2: I saw that and I was like, damn, there's a 92 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 2: lot happening. Substack, Puck, Janie Min has one. There's just 93 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 2: a lot. Media is exploding right now. I don't know 94 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 2: where you want to begin. Let's talk about your move, 95 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 2: because I mean, listen, eighteen years at SBJ and then 96 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:16,600 Speaker 2: moving to I don't know, but that's not quite a startup, 97 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 2: is it. 98 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 1: I think so it's been around two years. I still 99 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:22,360 Speaker 1: describe it as a startup, sort of a well funded startup. 100 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 1: It's weird. I got my start in newspapers and worked 101 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 1: for a magazine. This is the first time I can't 102 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:35,720 Speaker 1: hold anything that has my byline on it. And I 103 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 1: thought that there was going to be a that was 104 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 1: going to take some getting used to. But really everything that, 105 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:44,159 Speaker 1: like everything that I've been breaking at SBJ, we would 106 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:46,720 Speaker 1: break on the web anyway, So that you know we've 107 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:50,599 Speaker 1: SBJA is magazine still is profitable and still still brings 108 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 1: in some money, and I still wrote for that, but 109 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 1: I did a lot on the web there. So this 110 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:59,480 Speaker 1: was this was frankly an opportunity to work with people 111 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:01,840 Speaker 1: like you know, John Kelly who made his name over 112 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 1: at a vamily Fair, and Matt Bellanie and Dylan Buyers 113 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:09,159 Speaker 1: and you know, they are just some you know, really 114 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 1: good reporters that they have on staff, and so that 115 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 1: just the opportunity to sort of take off and join 116 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 1: with them. You know, it took a lot to leave SBJ. 117 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 1: I thought I was going to retire at SBJ. Yeah, 118 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 1: it's two decades worth, but I you know, they I 119 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:26,359 Speaker 1: just think the opportunity to be part of a startup 120 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:29,040 Speaker 1: is something that you know, I've really never done in 121 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 1: my career. So I thought that was going to be 122 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 1: something really cool to do. 123 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 2: What did the family think when old school newspaper guy, 124 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 2: print media guy is like, I'm going to a startup, 125 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 2: you know, Like was that a tough sell? Was that 126 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 2: like what are you doing? 127 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 1: Uh? Yeah, you know, I describe it as a startup, 128 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:48,600 Speaker 1: but it's financially backed by big kind of like TPG, 129 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 1: which is sort of the main investor in Direct TV 130 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 1: is backing it, so that made it a lot easier. 131 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:56,600 Speaker 1: I think the whole idea is that, you know, they 132 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:59,599 Speaker 1: knew what Sports Business journal is like, they know what 133 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 1: Fox Sports is like, they'd never heard of Puck and 134 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 1: so it was sort of, you know, like going somewhere 135 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 1: that doesn't have the brand name within our house anyway, 136 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 1: was something that took a little bit of a leap 137 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 1: of faith. 138 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 2: But we have seen some of these, I don't know 139 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 2: necessarily startups, but basically media print media is kind of 140 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 2: in decline it, I mean, it has been for a 141 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 2: while and I think, what was it the Messenger that 142 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:25,000 Speaker 2: just shut down recently and Vice shut down. I don't know, 143 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 2: do you have any concerns about that at all? Not 144 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 2: necessarily fuck just the written word in print media in general. 145 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, of course, how can you? How can you not 146 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 1: have concerns when you when you see what's going on there? 147 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 1: And I would have concerns to being part of Legacy Media, 148 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 1: you know which you know SBJ. I don't think I 149 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 1: think it's secure and had headed forward, you know, they're 150 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 1: backed by advanced New House, but I would have the 151 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 1: same concerns if I stayed there. I really like the 152 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 1: business plan behind Puck though, which is sort of like 153 00:07:57,320 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: they go out and they hire you know, top or 154 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 1: port On beats, and so they don't care about say, 155 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 1: you know, we're going to have an MLS beat or 156 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 1: we're going to have an NHL beat. It's just like 157 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 1: we're going to get one one person and we'll have them, 158 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 1: you know, create news or create columns, you know, twice 159 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 1: a week and do some podcasts around it and try 160 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 1: to build off of that. And they've been successful so far. 161 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 1: They've been around for two years. Matt bellanie'es we've just 162 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 1: written this was just written about in Vulture magazine. Actually 163 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 1: he just he has a column on Hollywood and he 164 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 1: is now must read if you're in the business of 165 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 1: Hollywood or the business and most motion pictures, you have 166 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 1: to read Belanie's column. And so that you know, they 167 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 1: already have sort of set something out to where a 168 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:45,439 Speaker 1: roadmap of sorts that I plan to use in terms 169 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 1: of getting them into the sports business. 170 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 2: So you call Roger Goodell and you're like, hey, John 171 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:54,199 Speaker 2: o'rin from are are the calls coming back a little 172 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:56,840 Speaker 2: slower because it's not SPJA or is it no difference 173 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 2: at all? They know your name, You've got the relationships. 174 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 1: I think I have a relationship. The Goodell's call is 175 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 1: taking just as long as it did when I was 176 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 1: at SPA. Unfortunately, Roger call me. But I've had to 177 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:12,199 Speaker 1: deal with that too. Like I started out at a 178 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:15,439 Speaker 1: publication called Cable Facts Daily, and when I went from 179 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:18,959 Speaker 1: Cable Facts as Sports Business Journal, the calls came back quicker, 180 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:22,439 Speaker 1: they came back the people calling back were much more senior, 181 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:27,680 Speaker 1: and so you know that was I've had to deal 182 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 1: with that previously my career. So right now, no, they're 183 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 1: calling me back based on who I am. 184 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:38,200 Speaker 2: One of the biggest things I've seen in media is 185 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:41,960 Speaker 2: probably the last fifteen to twenty years is do the 186 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 2: players need the media? Do the leagues need the media? 187 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:48,440 Speaker 2: I mean, if Roger Goodell really wants to put out 188 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 2: a message, he's got the NFLPR machine behind him, right, 189 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 2: do they need to go to the media. And like, 190 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 2: for instance, I think Tiger Woods was the first to 191 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 2: like start his own website instead of releasing a statement 192 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:01,439 Speaker 2: to the media, put it on his website. I think 193 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 2: this was like I don't know, two thousand and three 194 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:05,080 Speaker 2: or whatever, and I was like, oh, geez, he could 195 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 2: talk directly to the media instead of cutting out the 196 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 2: media and talking directly to the fans. How have you 197 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 2: seen that evolved now that social media is out there? 198 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:19,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's funny. I've seen that evolve hugely, especially with 199 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 1: social media. I mean, how many Instagram followers as Lebron have, 200 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:25,560 Speaker 1: and so if he wants to get a message out, 201 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 1: he can get it out immediately, and so he does 202 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:31,680 Speaker 1: not need the media in terms of doing things along 203 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:35,000 Speaker 1: those lines. I think where the media does come into help, 204 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:38,560 Speaker 1: and I've I've seen it come back around is that 205 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 1: having an independent third party write about you makes it 206 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:45,840 Speaker 1: feel and look and read much less like a press release. 207 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:49,319 Speaker 1: And so there's some validity to that, and I think 208 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:51,880 Speaker 1: that a lot of a lot of athletes have started 209 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 1: to recognize that aspect of it, which isn't taking away 210 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:57,680 Speaker 1: the ability to reach as many people as you can 211 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 1: with whatever message you want to get out there. But 212 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:04,440 Speaker 1: in terms of you know, documentaries, in terms of you know, 213 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:08,440 Speaker 1: future length stories, getting a you know, getting an outside 214 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 1: voice to come and document it does seem to help 215 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:14,319 Speaker 1: a lot more. But I certainly had the idea of 216 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:16,400 Speaker 1: the old beat writers sort of owning the beat and 217 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 1: you ind cater to them. You know, that's that's become 218 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:21,560 Speaker 1: a that's been a thing of the past for you know, 219 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:22,439 Speaker 1: for decades. 220 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 2: Now get in on the action with Draftking Sportsbook and 221 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 2: official sports betting partner of the NBA. 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It was the you know, it was the 246 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 2: FS one had popped up and people were pitting ESPN 247 00:12:57,440 --> 00:12:59,880 Speaker 2: against FS one. It was like, oh is this show working? 248 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:02,440 Speaker 2: You know, if the show doesn't get ratings, I don't know. 249 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:05,200 Speaker 2: Do you feel like that stuff even matters anymore? Like 250 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 2: the numbers for at McAfee show, Like, does that stuff 251 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 2: really matter or not? 252 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 1: Really? I think it matters still, I think I think 253 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 1: it matters. Well, it depends on who I'm talking to. 254 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: I write for the Business of sports, and it certainly 255 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:24,320 Speaker 1: matters to the business of sports. They it's a it 256 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:28,120 Speaker 1: is a snapshot at the popularity of a given program 257 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:31,960 Speaker 1: and or a given sport it's not the whole story, 258 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:34,439 Speaker 1: of course, but it is a snapshot that that tells 259 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:37,680 Speaker 1: a lot about it. I've been surprised over the years 260 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 1: at how many consumers sort of sort of take in 261 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 1: the ratings and take in the viewership and and uh 262 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 1: and you know, the ratings were made for TV advertisers 263 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 1: so that they can know where to where to advertise 264 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 1: and how much advertise for h and people like me 265 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:56,080 Speaker 1: would get in there and and and find out the 266 00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:58,920 Speaker 1: ratings and again use it as a snapshot of saying, like, hey, 267 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 1: the NBA on TV isn't doing as well. Actually they 268 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:03,439 Speaker 1: are doing better this year than last year, but last 269 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 1: year they weren't doing as well as the year before, 270 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 1: you know. And that's one data point out of what 271 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 1: ten twenty that you know, you can use to talk 272 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 1: about like that the health of the league. But I 273 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 1: do think as it goes to streaming and the I'm 274 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 1: going to get too deep in the weeds here. Nielsen 275 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 1: covers TV viewership and they're a third party that covers 276 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 1: TV viewership. Now that we're going to streaming, we have 277 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 1: companies like Apple saying, oh, we have you know, two 278 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 1: million people that downloaded mls the MLS out of market package, 279 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 1: and there's no way to verify when it's true or not, 280 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 1: you know, and you can have you know, any one 281 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 1: of the networks say like oh we got a couple 282 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 1: add in another like three or four million people that 283 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 1: streamed it, and there's no way to there's no third 284 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 1: party check on that that which makes it a lot 285 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 1: more difficult to report on. 286 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 2: So do you not report that if you know that 287 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:00,240 Speaker 2: MESSI joins the MLS. I obviously get the m this 288 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 2: package for MESSI, but there's no way to verify it, 289 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 2: Like I mean if you asked Apple for the numbers 290 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 2: and so sorry what that just you know, need to 291 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 2: know basis or something. 292 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, and in fact, not just for the press, there 293 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 1: are a lot of advertisers that that are in the 294 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 1: dark about how many people are actually watching specific games, 295 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 1: which again on television, you know, they know to the 296 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 1: quarter hour how many people are watching a various game 297 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 1: or show. So it makes it a lot more difficult. 298 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 1: I think there are numbers, so I won't ignore those numbers, 299 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: but you treat them differently. So you know, like as 300 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 1: you're write up, you source it that Apple says or 301 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 1: you know, like you source a little bit more, but 302 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 1: there is a story there. 303 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 2: Lastly, before you know, it's funny. I always hear John 304 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 2: people say, oh, well, well, Michael Jordan played. In the nineties, 305 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 2: NBA numbers were massive and then they fell off a 306 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 2: cliff and and I try to talk logic to these people, 307 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 2: but they refuse to hear it. And you know this 308 00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 2: covering ratings. If you looked at TV ratings for Eeinfeld 309 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 2: and Friends in the late nineties, they were astronomical, and 310 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 2: you compare that to today, and it's like a maybe 311 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 2: a third or a fourth or a fifth of the 312 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 2: audience is watching whatever nbccbs have on week nights. And 313 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 2: I don't know what do you attribute that to? You 314 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 2: like the Internet, I guess streaming phones, people cutting cable, 315 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 2: like there's so many factors, but it's almost like people 316 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 2: just don't want to mention that in relation to the 317 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 2: to the NBA and for NFL, Monday Night Football got 318 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 2: bigger ratings in the in the late nineties than Sunday 319 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 2: Night Football does like it two years ago. I'm almost 320 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 2: certain because I looked at the Wikipedia numbers this week. 321 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 1: Well, I mean, so back in the nineties, there were 322 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:50,200 Speaker 1: five TV Live broadcast TV channels and cable was in 323 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 1: its ascendency, so it wasn't it was growing. So by 324 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 1: the time ESPN got it in the early two thousands, 325 00:16:57,800 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 1: there were a lot more cable channels. There are still 326 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 1: the the broadcast and so it sort of uh uh 327 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:06,679 Speaker 1: went away now like went away, meaning it was it 328 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:10,639 Speaker 1: was spread out a lot more. Look, we have kids, like, 329 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:15,920 Speaker 1: what are they watching the nothing the well, nothing on TV, 330 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:18,639 Speaker 1: nothing on TV. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they're they're they're spending 331 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 1: their time watching TikTok or or Instagram, YouTube or YouTube, 332 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 1: and so all of a sudden, you're you're getting outside 333 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 1: of the TV ecosystem with all these other video choices 334 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:34,120 Speaker 1: that are that's becoming so much harder to compete with. 335 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:36,440 Speaker 1: So you know what, why why is it down? It's 336 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:40,359 Speaker 1: because viewers are being spread across so many more different places, 337 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 1: whereas back in the day it was only like five 338 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 1: broadcast channels and and and a cable a cable system 339 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:48,040 Speaker 1: that was in its infancy. 340 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, people don't want to hear this, but you could 341 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:55,159 Speaker 2: argue that more people are watching or privy to the 342 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:57,680 Speaker 2: Lebron highlights every night than they were the Michael Jordan 343 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 2: highlights and games back in the nineties big as of 344 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 2: social media YouTube. I mean, John, I got a son 345 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:06,359 Speaker 2: here who I'm watching him play video games? And the 346 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:09,399 Speaker 2: new hangout is, Oh, hey, I'm gonna play Fortnite, can 347 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 2: you fire it up? So he'll call his friend on 348 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 2: his Apple Watch. That friend will go on and play 349 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 2: YouTube at his house and they're streaming it and playing together. 350 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 2: When I was a kid, you had to like go 351 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:22,680 Speaker 2: to your friend's house and play I Got Next Game, 352 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 2: or play one v one, But you couldn't like do 353 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:27,760 Speaker 2: it like and you could just sit streaming playing all 354 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:29,840 Speaker 2: your friends hanging out for hours on end, like you 355 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:32,920 Speaker 2: couldn't do that before. Like who's watching an NBA game 356 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 2: or a baseball game? When you can just play video 357 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 2: games for hours on end with anybody anywhere in the 358 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 2: US or the world. 359 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 1: I will say this that Michael Michael Jordan was such 360 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:46,719 Speaker 1: a talent and he like just a bona fide superstar, 361 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:48,639 Speaker 1: and there was going to be a drop when he 362 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:51,640 Speaker 1: retired no matter what. And I think the NBA is 363 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:55,400 Speaker 1: facing the same thing with the old guard of you know, 364 00:18:56,119 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 1: Kevin Durant, Lebron James, Steph Curry and you know, people 365 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 1: want to watch them. We've been watching Lebron James for 366 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:07,639 Speaker 1: twenty years now, and so like when they end up 367 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:10,159 Speaker 1: going you know, it's like a TV show. You got 368 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:13,199 Speaker 1: to get the younger, younger people to step in, and 369 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:14,919 Speaker 1: it's going to take a while for that to happen. 370 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, let's get to the big topic, the 371 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:21,120 Speaker 2: NBA media rights. John somebody, you know, when I told 372 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 2: people I was talking to you, you got to ask 373 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 2: them about the NBA media rights. I guess the word 374 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:29,920 Speaker 2: on the street is NBC's suddenly in the mix. Remember 375 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 2: NBA on NBC Bob Costas blah blah blah. They're supposedly 376 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 2: back in the mix because the league, I guess is 377 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:40,639 Speaker 2: or the league's plural are ticked off that there is 378 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:44,400 Speaker 2: this potential for a joint streaming venture which is maybe 379 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 2: two in the weeds, but you could get into it 380 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:49,160 Speaker 2: if you want. And so NBC's now in the mix. 381 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:51,240 Speaker 2: But then there's another group of people saying, oh, well, 382 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:54,200 Speaker 2: the leagues are just using NBC as leverage to drive 383 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:56,640 Speaker 2: up their price. I don't know, you're on the ground 384 00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 2: floor for this. What are you hearing? 385 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:02,800 Speaker 1: So C is real? Uh? I think that the NBC 386 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 1: wants it. Uh. NBC wants it for uh. You know, 387 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:10,960 Speaker 1: they have a streaming service called Peacock, and they they 388 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:14,120 Speaker 1: want to grow the number of subscribers to Peacock. 389 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 2: Uh. 390 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:16,920 Speaker 1: And so if they weren't able to get a package 391 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 1: of games that they could place on Peacock, UH, that 392 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:23,239 Speaker 1: that that could help you know, grow that service, they 393 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 1: would love it. Remember, Peacock had a an exclusive wild 394 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:31,879 Speaker 1: card NFL Wildcard playoff game, and UH that was that 395 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 1: what playoff game happened on the day that the US 396 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:40,720 Speaker 1: saw it most had its most stream day. Thank thank 397 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 1: thank many do mainly to that that NFL game. So 398 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 1: these streaming services like a paramount plus two, they've recognized 399 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,960 Speaker 1: that sports is a way to gain subscribers. And so 400 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 1: if the NBC can use the n B a to 401 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 1: uh to help grow Peacock, then they're going to do it. 402 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:06,080 Speaker 1: The NBA is interested in NBC not for Peacock at all, 403 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 1: but because they have a broadcast station, and broadcast television 404 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:14,120 Speaker 1: is still the way that the best way to reach 405 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:18,639 Speaker 1: the biggest audiences around and the NFL is a partner 406 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:23,880 Speaker 1: parcel with that. Even with that the wild card playoff 407 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 1: game that was on Peacock set a record for streaming viewership, 408 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:29,200 Speaker 1: but it didn't even come close to what it would 409 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 1: have gotten had it been on Fox or CBS or 410 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:36,200 Speaker 1: anything like that. So I think NBC is still really 411 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,200 Speaker 1: in the mix. I think they're battling with Turner right 412 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 1: now TNT for sort of the third or fourth package, 413 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:49,119 Speaker 1: whatever the NBA decides to do. So I've been writing 414 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:54,200 Speaker 1: for the past six months, probably longer about the market 415 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:59,440 Speaker 1: for sports rights in America is really tightening up in 416 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:06,119 Speaker 1: a and there's cord cutting is happening. There is you know, 417 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 1: these networks that are not making as much money. They 418 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,359 Speaker 1: are these big digital companies that are not spending the 419 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 1: way that the leagues had wanted them to spend. And 420 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 1: so as a result that some some leagues and some 421 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:25,439 Speaker 1: conferences are just having to accept flat or less money. 422 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,400 Speaker 1: And we've seen some fallout from that case. And like that. 423 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:32,160 Speaker 1: You're in California. The PAC twelve imploded because it wasn't 424 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 1: able to get a deal. MLS wasn't able to really 425 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 1: get a television deal, so it ended up going to 426 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 1: all in with Apple on that the NBA. I don't 427 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 1: think it's going to be affected terribly by that, because 428 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:48,160 Speaker 1: it's like buying a house. If you have more than 429 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:50,760 Speaker 1: one bitter, you're going to be okay. And they have 430 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:55,640 Speaker 1: ESPN wants to renew and keep keep the main package. 431 00:22:56,000 --> 00:23:00,200 Speaker 1: Amazon is interested in it. Turner has said and and 432 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 1: has been negotiating. They definitely want to want to stay 433 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 1: in the NBA business. NBC has announced that that they 434 00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 1: want to get into the business. Apple is a big 435 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 1: wild card. We I mean, the deepest pockets, you know, 436 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:16,960 Speaker 1: if they want to make a splash, this is a 437 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:20,200 Speaker 1: great way to make a splash. Google Google YouTube also 438 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 1: is sort of a question mark that that that's been 439 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:24,679 Speaker 1: out there as well. But the upshot is that there 440 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 1: are a lot of bidders and the NBA, you know, 441 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:31,560 Speaker 1: uh it should be should be looking at I think 442 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:35,640 Speaker 1: a pretty good increase in what they get on their 443 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 1: agility rights fee. 444 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 2: That's big because that means salary cap goes up, everybody 445 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 2: gets more money. I don't know. But then you get 446 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:44,440 Speaker 2: to the point where you know, Jalen Brown of the Celtics, 447 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 2: not a top fifteen player in the league, is making like, 448 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 2: you know, sixty million dollars a year, and it gets 449 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,480 Speaker 2: a little weird. But I am curious. You said sports 450 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:55,560 Speaker 2: rights are getting things are tightening up. Where would you 451 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 2: say they are? You know, baseball obviously, I'm interested in 452 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:01,879 Speaker 2: soccer's you know, were minority owners of a team in 453 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 2: League MX. But like NHL, it's weird. I don't even 454 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 2: know where the NHL is in the season. I saw like, oh, 455 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:11,480 Speaker 2: there was an All Star game, like is that early 456 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 2: mid late. It's very strange how some of these leagues, 457 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 2: even when they leave ESPN or go back to ESPN, 458 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:19,920 Speaker 2: if you're not a hockey fan, you're kind of out 459 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 2: of the mix. Now. I know you follow baseball closely, 460 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:26,880 Speaker 2: but what's the right situation with like hockey, baseball, soccer. 461 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,240 Speaker 1: Those those leagues are okay because they have right steals 462 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:35,200 Speaker 1: that go for another like three or four years, and 463 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:38,680 Speaker 1: and so they you know, they'll wait and see how 464 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,280 Speaker 1: this all shakes out. Before there they're back back in 465 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:45,080 Speaker 1: the market. My job for the next couple of years 466 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 1: is to determine who are the haves and who are 467 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:52,439 Speaker 1: the have nots, and where that line line is drawn. 468 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 1: The NFL, clearly I have the Big Ten and the SEC. 469 00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:02,240 Speaker 1: In college football, clearly I have. The NBA clearly appears 470 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:04,880 Speaker 1: to be a have You know, Baseball ESPN has an 471 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,439 Speaker 1: help that they can exercise. Will they remain to have 472 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,679 Speaker 1: like that. I think they probably will. I think that 473 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:16,400 Speaker 1: they're especially locally there they bring in a big viewership. 474 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:20,000 Speaker 2: Oh wait, wait so John and you said locally yes, 475 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:23,639 Speaker 2: But somebody had put out that the World Series whatever 476 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,160 Speaker 2: went five, six to seven games. However, money was that 477 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,399 Speaker 2: if you combine the viewership from all the games, it 478 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 2: did not equal the number of people that watched like 479 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 2: the NFC championship game or or maybe it was Cowboys 480 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:38,400 Speaker 2: Packers or something like that, and it was like, wait 481 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:43,400 Speaker 2: a minute, Regionally baseball thriving, but nationally not so much. 482 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:49,680 Speaker 1: Nationally a little bit less. So I always that's that's 483 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,720 Speaker 1: a great stat and it's a it's a true stat. 484 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:54,399 Speaker 1: But I always find it a little bit unfair to 485 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:57,600 Speaker 1: compare anything to the NFL, because the NFL is it's 486 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:00,680 Speaker 1: really the NFL and everything else. It is really separated 487 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 1: itself so much in terms of a media product, a 488 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 1: television product, from any of the other any of the 489 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 1: other leagues. I know that Fox is happy with with 490 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:14,000 Speaker 1: the numbers it gets from from baseball. The October UH 491 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:18,359 Speaker 1: viewership that that that comes with baseball. Uh, you know 492 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 1: works for Fox, it works for a TBS and and 493 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:24,840 Speaker 1: those media companies are very happy with it. What people 494 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 1: struggle with sometimes are you know, the when was the 495 00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 1: last time you watch a regular season game on TBS. 496 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:32,920 Speaker 1: You know, they used to be on Sunday afternoons. I 497 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:37,159 Speaker 1: think they moved them to Tuesday nights. Fox's regular season 498 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,879 Speaker 1: package on Saturday afternoons. That that you know it that 499 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 1: those don't those aren't as popular as as they probably 500 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,000 Speaker 1: should be. But that's uh in terms of you know, 501 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:50,200 Speaker 1: when they get into the playoffs, it's still is clear 502 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:55,240 Speaker 1: baseball playoffs still clearly have baseball regular season. From a 503 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 1: national perspective, that might be on the a little bit 504 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:02,360 Speaker 1: greater grayer area than I would have thought a couple 505 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:02,880 Speaker 1: of years ago. 506 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:05,920 Speaker 2: What about college basketball, We'll start with the men's side 507 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,200 Speaker 2: and then go to the Kaitlin Clark addition, because they're 508 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:11,159 Speaker 2: very clearly at this point two different beasts. 509 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:15,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, college basketball is uh, very they should be very happy. 510 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:19,200 Speaker 1: They're sort of you know the deal that uh that 511 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:24,040 Speaker 1: you know, Fox, CBS and NBC did for the Big 512 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 1: Ten includes college basketball, but that that was a college 513 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:30,720 Speaker 1: football deal so in terms of a rights deal like that, 514 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 1: they piggyback off of off of football. 515 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:34,640 Speaker 2: Uh. 516 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:39,919 Speaker 1: College basketball numbers Uh yeah again regular season they're not great. 517 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,760 Speaker 1: I mean they and uh and and especially for on 518 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 1: the on the men's side, like they are certainly not 519 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:52,639 Speaker 1: where they were five ten years ago. And it's people 520 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,760 Speaker 1: jumping teams. It's it's difficult to to get you know, 521 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,920 Speaker 1: people people to sit and wind. I mean, you're doing 522 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 1: what Seinfeld said for the uniform in some cases, I do. 523 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,119 Speaker 1: I do feel though you brought up Caitlyn Clark and 524 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:11,560 Speaker 1: Angel Reese, the women's game has has players who have 525 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:14,159 Speaker 1: stayed with the pro stayed with their programs more or 526 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 1: less for you know, two three years. You have fans 527 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:20,119 Speaker 1: that get to know them and get to see their development. 528 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 1: Uh and and uh. You have off court storylines that 529 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 1: that really attract the casual fan, you know, like Caitlin 530 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:32,600 Speaker 1: Clark setting the scoring record, the Angel ree Caitlin Clark, 531 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:37,480 Speaker 1: a national championship, uh battle that they had in controversy 532 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 1: that gets people to watch. And it's no surprise that 533 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,360 Speaker 1: the women's game is seeing a lot of growth right 534 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:44,960 Speaker 1: now where the men are not. 535 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:47,960 Speaker 2: We could wrap up. I'm gonna bury this one deep 536 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:51,680 Speaker 2: into the podcast. John. So, you know, I don't want 537 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:53,920 Speaker 2: to be seen as Fox guy going after ESPN guy, 538 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 2: but I do have to ask about Steven A. Smith. Obviously. 539 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 2: Let's just how do I say this? You know, I'm 540 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 2: regularly talking to people in the media and blah blah blah, 541 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 2: and it just seems more and more likely that Steven A. 542 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 2: Smith is going to be leaving ESPN down the road. 543 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 2: I don't know what his contract situation is. I'm just 544 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 2: curious what you've heard. And a lot of people are 545 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 2: maybe putting breadcrumbs together saying, oh, well, you know, he 546 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 2: keeps going to talk about politics, and then he says 547 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:27,880 Speaker 2: he's not going to run for president, Like, wait, what 548 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 2: what are you talking about? You know, you're Steven A. 549 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 1: Smith. 550 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 2: You're a sports guy, and he's doing these rambling podcasts 551 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 2: that have nothing to do with sports, and you just 552 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:39,320 Speaker 2: start to wonder, does he think, Okay, I'm gonna get 553 00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 2: a big deal for ESBN, or does ESPN say, hey, 554 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:44,400 Speaker 2: we we can't afford you, You've outgrown us. We'll move on. 555 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:46,760 Speaker 2: What are you hearing on the Steven I. Smith front? 556 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,240 Speaker 1: I'm not hearing a ton on that front don't need 557 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:53,440 Speaker 1: talent so much as they need the NFL rights or 558 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,040 Speaker 1: they need the NBN rights, and so they you know, 559 00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 1: if ESPN is going to make a really big program 560 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 1: aiming decision, it's going to be to bring in the 561 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 1: rights to live games and uh and and uh. So 562 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:11,480 Speaker 1: they don't value necessarily uh the talent as much as 563 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 1: as as perhaps they did in the past. There are 564 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 1: some people, though, that they do value, and Stephen A. 565 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 1: Smith has been one of them. Scott Van Pelt is 566 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 1: another one of them. You can sort of go down 567 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 1: the list. I think Terry Aigman and Joe Buck, who 568 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 1: are the Monday Night Football Booth, They're another one. So 569 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:34,080 Speaker 1: the question is, and I don't I don't have an 570 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:36,920 Speaker 1: answer to this, and I don't think many people do yet. 571 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 1: The question is whether or not ESPN values Stephen A. 572 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:44,000 Speaker 1: Smith enough to sort of allow him to start doing 573 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 1: more stuff on his own. He does have his own podcast, 574 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:49,560 Speaker 1: and you know it is doing a lot more hosting 575 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 1: and appearing on political shows, or if or if they 576 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:54,960 Speaker 1: say like, okay, you know what, we're going to cut 577 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,240 Speaker 1: eat on this and then we're going to take that 578 00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 1: money to you know, to really sure up some bright 579 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,120 Speaker 1: steal that might may be coming up in the future. 580 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:06,360 Speaker 1: And that's sort of the question to add I Dodd 581 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:09,480 Speaker 1: to your question. No, that's what that that's what I 582 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:10,280 Speaker 1: would be looking at. 583 00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I guess I bring it up because listen, 584 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:15,120 Speaker 2: he's a lightning rod in the industry. Obviously, people know 585 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:19,840 Speaker 2: him casual, even casual fans know him because he's still 586 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 2: out there. But as somebody made the point like, oh 587 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:24,560 Speaker 2: it was interesting, like Steven A was like, oh, yeah, 588 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 2: we got to bring in Shannon Sharp when he became available. 589 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 2: And next thing you know, Shannon Sharp is driving numbers 590 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:32,440 Speaker 2: on that show. Like the numbers go up when he's 591 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:35,760 Speaker 2: on there, and you start to wonder, oh, if Steven A. 592 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:39,200 Speaker 2: Smith does walk or demands twenty million dollars a year, Well, 593 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 2: just play some with Shannon Sharp. I don't know, I'm 594 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:42,719 Speaker 2: just talking out loud here. 595 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,120 Speaker 1: Uh, they could do that. Stephen A is one of 596 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:51,160 Speaker 1: the one of the top five talents that ESPN executives 597 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,040 Speaker 1: you know, would want to keep. The question is whether 598 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:56,480 Speaker 1: the price type becomes too steep or not. 599 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, John O Ran Fuck now you got 600 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:03,320 Speaker 2: to subscribe to get his stuff? Oh I forgot to ask. 601 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:05,880 Speaker 2: You know, I'm sure you're seeing more and more media 602 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 2: going your route. There's some guys doing sub stack Ethan 603 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:13,240 Speaker 2: Strauss does one. I just where do you see media 604 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 2: in five years? I mean, I don't know. Do you 605 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:19,000 Speaker 2: uh think maybe maybe the newspapers are down to like 606 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 2: the New York Times in the Washington Post? I don't know, 607 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:24,120 Speaker 2: like media writers. There's one guy at the Washington Post 608 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:25,720 Speaker 2: who does it. The New York Times I don't think 609 00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 2: has a media writer. They used to have Sandomir. I 610 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:30,200 Speaker 2: don't know where are where? Where are we in the 611 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,720 Speaker 2: media five years now? Is your job going to be normal? 612 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:35,120 Speaker 2: We'll Puck have a robust sports team of three or 613 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:35,920 Speaker 2: four writers. 614 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:40,800 Speaker 1: I would expect Puck is gonna build the sports up business. 615 00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:44,120 Speaker 1: Had a little bit that's not gonna happen right away. 616 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:50,800 Speaker 1: Uh you know, Ben Smith actually had a tweet where 617 00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:54,120 Speaker 1: he was talking about all the different outlets that are 618 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,560 Speaker 1: hiring media writers. You saw like my former podcast partner 619 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:00,760 Speaker 1: Andrew marsha and went to uh over to the Athletic 620 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:04,120 Speaker 1: and you know where he's paired with Richard Dyke there, 621 00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:08,400 Speaker 1: and you're seeing different outlets that are looking for to 622 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 1: hire media reporters. New York Times is out looking for it. 623 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:15,760 Speaker 1: Ben Smith's outlet is uh is uh you know it 624 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 1: has a media reporter already and uh in Maxillany Uh 625 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:24,920 Speaker 1: So there everything that we just talked about, uh, with 626 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:27,520 Speaker 1: you know, the NBA rights and with the current market 627 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 1: just sort of being in chaos. The media business is 628 00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:34,800 Speaker 1: on fire, and so it would really behoove a lot 629 00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:37,920 Speaker 1: of these companies to uh to get you know, media 630 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 1: reporters to document it because it's a it's a uh, 631 00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:45,560 Speaker 1: it really is a uh. There's there's just a ton 632 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 1: of chaos in the market right now. 633 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:49,760 Speaker 2: It used to be that the media told you what 634 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:52,960 Speaker 2: was happening, like here's what's happening. Now it's we want 635 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,920 Speaker 2: your attention. We need you reading us, we need you 636 00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:58,840 Speaker 2: paying for us, we need you following us. You know, 637 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:01,520 Speaker 2: it really feels like it's an attention economy and it's 638 00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:04,719 Speaker 2: a battle for attention, and covering the media is certainly 639 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:06,720 Speaker 2: one way to get it, and you do a great job. John, 640 00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:08,359 Speaker 2: Thanks for taking the time to come on the pod. 641 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:09,799 Speaker 1: Buddy, Hey, thanks for the offer.