Speaker 1: A media, How could we possibly talk about any sort
Speaker 1: of election if we're not talking about the white evangelical.
Speaker 2: We had to talk about it.
Speaker 1: In this episode of Terrriforming, We're going to address the
Speaker 1: white evangelical.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: I'm giving these qualifiers to what type of Christian we're
Speaker 1: talking about for a number of reasons. One, because you
Speaker 1: know your boy, whether you notice or not, your boy
Speaker 1: knows the Bible.
Speaker 2: In addition to.
Speaker 1: Being you know, a hip hop artist and poet and
Speaker 1: being formally trained in like social sciences, your boy has
Speaker 1: theological training. And the truth is like if it come
Speaker 1: to the scriptures cont to the Bible, and I mean
Speaker 1: you don't want to smoke. Your boy knows what he's
Speaker 1: talking about. Now, in a universe where gravity and the
Speaker 1: other laws of physics that rule the universe, in a
Speaker 1: world where those still apply, the advent of a Donald
Speaker 1: Trump would have been unthinkable, anathema for all my Bible nerds.
Speaker 1: He's a Nebakanezer character again, a nero, like just a
Speaker 1: nimrod like. He's these characters that are these archetypes that
Speaker 1: are in scripture that if you twist your arm hard enough,
Speaker 1: if you twist your theology hard enough, then you could
Speaker 1: say that like he is this rod of correction, this
Speaker 1: godless rod of correction that God has sent to correct
Speaker 1: the society a man who doesn't have the moral standards
Speaker 1: and does not hold to the same things you hold
Speaker 1: that God is using to correct the wrongs of society.
Speaker 1: Like if you twist your theology well enough, you could
Speaker 1: get there. But here's the thing about theology. Christian world
Speaker 1: is like any other fandom. And I hope that doesn't
Speaker 1: sound reductive. It's like any other fandom in the sense
Speaker 1: that there are hardliners and liberals, there are people that
Speaker 1: only have a surface on understanding. There's actual experts, quite
Speaker 1: a diversity of thought ways that those are practice. You
Speaker 1: have your orthodoxy, which is like what we believe, and
Speaker 1: then your orthopraxy, which is what we practice, like correcting
Speaker 1: your practice. Theologically speaking, you want both of those to
Speaker 1: meet in a way that is consistent, aligned to the
Speaker 1: tenets of the faith that we say we hold to
Speaker 1: consistently God. But yeah, i've gravity worked the way we
Speaker 1: thought it would, especially with somebody like a conservative evangelical
Speaker 1: who presents themselves as the moral compass of the world.
Speaker 1: Like how you can put a man in power who's
Speaker 1: been married three times, all his kids got different mamas,
Speaker 1: with three different mamas, and cheated on all of them,
Speaker 1: one of which is with the porn star just who
Speaker 1: has done incredibly shady business. Like I just don't one
Speaker 1: would think that that would not fly with this group
Speaker 1: of people.
Speaker 2: And know same people.
Speaker 1: To consider a man who has been married once to
Speaker 1: the same woman and all his children got the same
Speaker 1: mom and daddy and there's no scandals and no infidelity,
Speaker 1: and no stories about his personal dealings has ever surfaced.
Speaker 2: How he's the Antichry? I don't know.
Speaker 1: Man, gravity just doesn't work the way he used to.
Speaker 1: But that's not what I'm trying to get at here.
Speaker 1: What I'm trying to get at here is there are
Speaker 1: what we call essentials and non essentials and things that
Speaker 1: we just can disagree on. But at the end of
Speaker 1: the day, you're in we're all in the same house.
Speaker 1: But then there are things that has been decided that
Speaker 1: this is a line in the sand. If you believe
Speaker 1: this thing, then you're out. That would essentially mean that
Speaker 1: you're not a Christian because you can't. This is a
Speaker 1: do not pass go issue. The issue is the people
Speaker 1: that have decided that what those lines are are basically
Speaker 1: self appointed, Like nobody agreed that y'all would be the
Speaker 1: arbiters of what is actually sound biblic doctrine, as they
Speaker 1: would say, you self selected that. And I'm saying this
Speaker 1: from the inside of the room, not the outside. And
Speaker 1: like pretty much everything else in the world, the people.
Speaker 2: That did that were the white boys.
Speaker 1: The white boys decided the who have followed the church
Speaker 1: history through the Gospel going north up into Europe, rather
Speaker 1: than going south, which is where it went first, it
Speaker 1: went southeast rather than northwest.
Speaker 2: First.
Speaker 1: I'm talking about leaving Judea, leaving the areas of Israel
Speaker 1: and Palestine where he's from. As a as a fun aside,
Speaker 1: you know, Jesus was born in Bethlehem. You know where
Speaker 1: Bethlehem is. It's in the West Bank, It's in Palestine.
Speaker 1: So there's that, and and and the issue with these
Speaker 1: white boys is kind of like, of course, I'm using
Speaker 1: this in a remarkably broad sense because it's a very
Speaker 1: specific white boy that decided they are the arbiters of truth.
Speaker 1: Is not all of them, Okay, So Jesus just just
Speaker 1: stay with me, just like I know every black people
Speaker 1: don't gangbang, I understand we talking about, but follow me here.
Speaker 1: As a cultural trend, the white evangelical has decided they
Speaker 1: are the keepers of the flame. Now what's even crazier is,
Speaker 1: if you want to get more into the weeds, it's
Speaker 1: really the white American Calvinists. And if you really want
Speaker 1: to get wonky, Calvinists aren't actually evangelical and they don't
Speaker 1: even agree because you have Baptist Calvinists. But anyway, we're
Speaker 1: getting in the weeds here, just like if we were
Speaker 1: to get into like a DC and Marvel argument, we
Speaker 1: would be in the weeds in a way that would
Speaker 1: make your eyes go blurry.
Speaker 2: But they've decided that they're the artists.
Speaker 1: But the thing is, like, if you understand the trajectory
Speaker 1: of Christian thought, what is considered orthodox or correct has
Speaker 1: changed over time and has continued to it even changes
Speaker 1: within the Bible. People realizing that like, hey, maybe they
Speaker 1: didn't understand what they believed well enough, or culture has
Speaker 1: changed or science has changed, and like knowledge has changed.
Speaker 1: And now it's like the idea of like, well we
Speaker 1: have better tools. Are academia is better, There's better tools,
Speaker 1: there's better ways to translate this ancient Aramaic perish the thought.
Speaker 1: But actually speaking to people from the region that would
Speaker 1: possibly tell you that they don't have to be Christian
Speaker 1: or Jewish, They could just tell you, like, yeah, that's.
Speaker 2: Not what that worris means. My mama says it all
Speaker 2: the time.
Speaker 1: I mean this, We now know more about context history, archaeology, anthropology.
Speaker 1: We just know more to realize that, Yeah, these dudes
Speaker 1: that are interpreting the Bible from the fifteen hundreds were
Speaker 1: reading from a Latin translation, you know what I'm saying,
Speaker 1: which was not even what it was written in in
Speaker 1: the first place. Those like realizing that, like yeah, like
Speaker 1: they just made mistakes, and it's an honest mistake. And
Speaker 1: now that we've made this honest mistake, like you dude,
Speaker 1: we got to change the way we think about these things.
Speaker 1: Like that's happening and has continued to happen all the time.
Speaker 1: But if you've decided that you're the guys who gets
Speaker 1: to decide what is right and wrong, then everybody else
Speaker 1: is wrong. Like what prop give an example, well, six creation,
Speaker 1: seven day rest and the earth being six thousand years old.
Speaker 1: Bible nerds now have been trying to say forever that
Speaker 1: like y'all reading this all wrong. That's not even what
Speaker 1: it says, or even what it's trying to say. You're
Speaker 1: missing the point. This isn't surveillance camera footage where you
Speaker 1: watch the world being made. No, it's not the point.
Speaker 1: It's a theological statement about purpose and order. That's what
Speaker 1: create means. But anyway, and the Bible nerds are trying
Speaker 1: to tell you it's not wings a change move.
Speaker 2: Very slowly.
Speaker 1: Now, having said all that, know that the white evangelical
Speaker 1: only represents eleven percent of the full Christian world. My lord,
Speaker 1: we haven't even talked about the Spanish speaking Catholic world,
Speaker 1: Like you're barely anybody. The problem is they just have
Speaker 1: the microphone. And what comes with the microphone is power,
Speaker 1: a power that was broken at least in America. You
Speaker 1: could argue all the way back to like Phylish Slapley
Speaker 1: and the religious right and John Bursch Society and Autumn weirdos,
Speaker 1: but ultimately it's a power move to preserve a way
Speaker 1: of life that essentially upheld white supremacy. I mean, I
Speaker 1: don't know how else to explain it. Masquerading as family values,
Speaker 1: and there have been people inside the church that have
Speaker 1: been ringing the alarm forever that you know, maybe one
Speaker 1: day I'll bring those people around, like my man Jamar
Speaker 1: Tisby or the boys show Baraka the homegirl Sandra. I
Speaker 1: always say her name wrong because she's actually Puerto Rican,
Speaker 1: but she married his wife. I always forget her her
Speaker 1: how to say her last name? Hopes the ball anyway,
Speaker 1: she's got the thing called chasing justice. Like is people
Speaker 1: outside really trying to like correct the ship? But either way,
Speaker 1: this is the world we live in and inside of
Speaker 1: that a lot of people, including myself. Now, I didn't
Speaker 1: grow up as a white evangelical obviously, but I come
Speaker 1: from the wing of the church that has in a
Speaker 1: lot of ways been the conscious of America. Like who
Speaker 1: actually has kept forced America to come to task, stand
Speaker 1: on business and keep their promises and correct the wrongs
Speaker 1: that they've done. And time and again it's been to
Speaker 1: black church abolitionists, civil rights movement, like as far as
Speaker 1: the church is concerned, it's been us that's been like
Speaker 1: a NAFAM now is not without its own problems, of course,
Speaker 1: but point being, there has been issues in are justice
Speaker 1: and liberation that have not been tenable, and it's been
Speaker 1: us that's been like standard, but anyway, I'm off topic.
Speaker 1: Inside of that are truly loving humans who just happen
Speaker 1: to go to these churches and grow up in these
Speaker 1: spaces that, from all you know, are just making you
Speaker 1: a decent human being. And then there are situations that
Speaker 1: make that untenable. Sometimes it's around your sexuality. Sometimes it's
Speaker 1: around again your skin color. Sometimes it's around the treatment
Speaker 1: of others and of immigrants, and sometimes it's around politics.
Speaker 1: And you find yourself in a situation where this spiritual
Speaker 1: belief and practice has served you well and like you
Speaker 1: truly believe you know Jesus Lord and died for your
Speaker 1: seeings like you or or something somewhere close to that.
Speaker 1: You understand that like loving God and neighbor is like
Speaker 1: still the gold that I got, like I want to
Speaker 1: be I want.
Speaker 2: To be like Jesus.
Speaker 1: But this context, culture, and direction has made your life
Speaker 1: made it untenable. I can't stay here, I can't in
Speaker 1: good conscious even if I'm trying to be like the
Speaker 1: Jesus I say, I profess.
Speaker 2: That means I can't keep rocking with y'all. What do
Speaker 2: you do then?
Speaker 1: Who are the people that still want to hold on
Speaker 1: to the tenets of their faith, but are just like,
Speaker 1: I cannot fuck with the rest of this.
Speaker 2: I just it, just it. The math is in math,
Speaker 2: it's impossible.
Speaker 1: Allow me to introduce you to Kevin Garcia, and I'm
Speaker 1: gonna let him tell you more about himself. All right,
Speaker 1: you up in there now. I have done an extensive
Speaker 1: intro already, great for the pod people that you will
Speaker 1: hear when this actually airs, or I could play it
Speaker 1: before you, but anyway, it's basically what I texted you
Speaker 1: already where I'm like, all right, listen, this is about
Speaker 1: to be a nightmare year as far as the public discourse.
Speaker 1: Maybe our personal lives might be amazing, yep, say.
Speaker 3: It, but god, I'm that's what I'm gaming for, right,
Speaker 3: That's what I want.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, that's the goal.
Speaker 1: But I do a show, as you know, called Hood
Speaker 1: Politics will prop where essentially the idea is these politicians,
Speaker 1: political buness, whatever it happens, whatever's happening in the world.
Speaker 2: These people are not smarter than you. They just use
Speaker 2: another language.
Speaker 1: Right, And I am pretty sure your experiences growing up
Speaker 1: where you grew up actually equipped you more than you
Speaker 1: think you do to understand what's going on in the
Speaker 1: way world. Right, So normally what I try to do
Speaker 1: is I try to stay ahead.
Speaker 2: I try not to get more.
Speaker 1: Than four episodes ahead in the can because of how
Speaker 1: fast things happen. Right this year, I'm like eight weeks
Speaker 1: ahead because so much happens, so.
Speaker 3: Much is happening, there's so much to cover, and there's
Speaker 3: like it's all necessary.
Speaker 2: It's all necessary. You can't skip anything.
Speaker 3: It's like all hands on deck education so that we
Speaker 3: can like not even like like full fully education, but
Speaker 3: just like equipping people exactly. Yeah, I think this is
Speaker 3: necessary to yeah, to not totally slip into two fascism.
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
Speaker 1: There's Yeah, there's this like amazing silver place silvered Metals
Speaker 1: second place run happening on the Republican side, where y'all
Speaker 1: just so fighting for a consolation prize for some reason,
Speaker 1: so wild to watch. Yeah, and you're about to lose
Speaker 1: to someone who didn't even show up, who ain't come
Speaker 1: to none of the shit and has ninety one cases
Speaker 1: and who go put it, which is why you're here,
Speaker 1: part of why you're here, and who is probably gonna
Speaker 1: put him in office is a voter block who looked
Speaker 1: at a man ten years ago, who was the husband
Speaker 1: of one wife, who had no scandals, who raised his
Speaker 1: children in ways that are moral and have a typical
Speaker 1: you know, like very typical, kept them out of the spotlight,
Speaker 1: who have like perfect, perfect children, and chose the guy
Speaker 1: with three baby mamas who cheated on all of them,
Speaker 1: mamas with adult porn stars, paid them off, cheated on everything.
Speaker 2: It used to be a woman, lie talk to the woman,
Speaker 2: lied about it, and.
Speaker 3: Discriminated against black people for housing in the twentieth century,
Speaker 3: like in the in the eighties and nineties, like not
Speaker 3: even in the seventies.
Speaker 2: But the black dudes, danti Christ got it.
Speaker 3: So a sign of the Antichrist, and this is the
Speaker 3: tribulation any day now we are going.
Speaker 2: To be raptured up.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like yeah, so so so so the church folks
Speaker 1: chose that dude, right, which is a thing. While at
Speaker 1: the same time, it's wars breaking out all over the country,
Speaker 1: all over the world that we somehow are funding.
Speaker 3: Uh there what money? That's the other thing I want
Speaker 3: to know.
Speaker 2: That's where y'all Where are y'all fighting this one?
Speaker 3: Yet it's like we cannot, we cannot forgive your student
Speaker 3: loan debts.
Speaker 2: We cannot help just really build the money. I really
Speaker 2: we really need to go bomb these kids. You have
Speaker 2: to war, just.
Speaker 1: And one of these wars are any of our business
Speaker 1: on top of that, right, So just all of this
Speaker 1: happens and here we are, and then I haven't even
Speaker 1: got to cover the just the gift that twenty twenty
Speaker 1: three ended us with of George Santos, Like, I haven't
Speaker 1: even got to get that one out.
Speaker 2: Well, just god, if we can even touch on that
Speaker 2: crazy silly moment. Dude.
Speaker 1: It was like, it was like, please tell me watch
Speaker 1: the z Way interview with him.
Speaker 2: Of course I did. I was like, you like it.
Speaker 1: I must feel I must think for for the gaze,
Speaker 1: it has to feel like he's like a he's like
Speaker 1: a Colon Powell character that we thought of for black
Speaker 1: people to where you're like, god, damn it, you get
Speaker 1: a black man in position to really affect change. You're
Speaker 1: super proud of what he is, and then you do
Speaker 1: this shit and you're just like.
Speaker 3: But not that, like that, not like it's just like
Speaker 3: it was like this was how how did we huh?
Speaker 3: It's like it's it's really like a case of like
Speaker 3: how did it happen? Like and I look at George
Speaker 3: Santos and I'm just like, from it's one of these
Speaker 3: really interesting things if you look at it from like,
Speaker 3: this is the problem. Politics has become entertainment, yes, absolutely,
Speaker 3: and spectacle absolutely, And so this is also part of
Speaker 3: the problem that I can look at this and you know,
Speaker 3: some gays would say, oh my god, I can iconic
Speaker 3: or like it's like as oh yeah, that's iconic gay
Speaker 3: behavior or something like that, And of course it's in
Speaker 3: jest because it's actually quite horrifying that absolutely, yeah, who
Speaker 3: lied about everything and then got removed, is still trying
Speaker 3: to stand.
Speaker 2: Tinto's down on what he did.
Speaker 1: He's still standing all business like and you respect it.
Speaker 3: But it's like as as a grift, yeah, I mean,
Speaker 3: like scammer's gonna scam so like you did as far
Speaker 3: as you can, but just like you're still no Donald J. Trump,
Speaker 3: unfortunate you still JV. Yeah, man, the grift of it all.
Speaker 3: And I think the thing like I watched the Iowa caucus,
Speaker 3: so if that puts us in a timeline for anyone
Speaker 3: listening that just happened this past Tuesday and seeing how
Speaker 3: the numbers have jumped up, but like almost doubled in
Speaker 3: every category of people who were supporting him back in
Speaker 3: twenty sixteen. Yeah, and you know, like you know, we
Speaker 3: thought like, oh yeah, like we're finally you know. I
Speaker 3: was like part of like the crew was like okay,
Speaker 3: so like not my first choice for a president, but
Speaker 3: we gotta do it. We got to do it.
Speaker 1: Like you know.
Speaker 3: I was also like we were like going hard for
Speaker 3: Stacy Abriams here in Georgia, and it was like the
Speaker 3: heartbreak of heartbreaks, but like we were just like this
Speaker 3: was supposed this was supposed to be our years. Yeah, right,
Speaker 3: right right, and jokes jokes, and like I feel like
Speaker 3: even those of us who like we're all like hardcore
Speaker 3: Obama campaigners too, Like, you know, we look back on
Speaker 3: it now, we see, you know, how many bombs he
Speaker 3: dropped on different places, and we never heard about it
Speaker 3: talked about it because we just didn't know what we
Speaker 3: didn't know. Yeah, and now it's almost just like, you know,
Speaker 3: to quote the NAP Bishop her self, trust to Hersey,
Speaker 3: we have been pambou soled.
Speaker 1: Yes, facts and like in you know, my my partners
Speaker 1: obviously Latina and her thing was like in the Latino community,
Speaker 1: they were like we was proud, but you know, he
Speaker 1: was the deporter in chief, Like he parted more people.
Speaker 2: He parted more people than any president before him. You know,
Speaker 2: it's just this.
Speaker 1: He was just nice about it, you know, and that's
Speaker 1: it just sucks, man. So I wanted to every month
Speaker 1: this year bring in people actually putting good in the world.
Speaker 1: So while we're talking about all this stuff, like you
Speaker 1: feel dooms, yeah, like all the doom that and there
Speaker 1: is enough. There are people out there telling better stories,
Speaker 1: creating better narratives, even in spaces that one would think
Speaker 1: are irredeemable. And that's where Kevin Garcia comes in. So
Speaker 1: my first I saw your merch before I saw you,
Speaker 1: and I was like, oh, hell yeah, so your merch
Speaker 1: says bad theology kills and I was like, oh shit,
Speaker 1: like this is so And why it's so brilliant to
Speaker 1: me is because the like the angry Calvinists would buy
Speaker 1: your shirt not knowing you know what I'm saying that like,
Speaker 1: because they say the same shit, the fool you know
Speaker 1: what I'm saying saying, Yeah, they would say the same thing,
Speaker 1: you feel me. And then the you know, the rolling
Speaker 1: on the ground talking and tongue Pentecosta would buy your shirt.
Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying, not knowing you know what
Speaker 1: I'm saying, What's really going on here? And you sit
Speaker 1: in this amazing intersection. What I said in the interview
Speaker 1: was like, there are people who have felt as though
Speaker 1: there were things about their christian and I'm saying like international,
Speaker 1: not just like Western Evangelical, like Christian upbringing or base
Speaker 1: that really still resonates with them. But staying there was untenable.
Speaker 1: Was just I can't stay in this culture. There are
Speaker 1: things like you said that the alternative is taking my
Speaker 1: own life or someone taking.
Speaker 2: It for me.
Speaker 1: The alternative is death death? Right, where do I go?
Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying? And I did a deep
Speaker 1: dive and I was like, this, dude's a g like
Speaker 1: who like.
Speaker 2: I have different about this?
Speaker 1: Yeah, Kev's different, right, So now I'm gonna let you
Speaker 1: speak for yourself.
Speaker 2: I did all that, soh So.
Speaker 3: I mean you've juiced up my ego in a nice way,
Speaker 3: especially because I was feeling like shit today.
Speaker 2: So this is great.
Speaker 1: I tell you, like, nah, you you you a terror
Speaker 1: former man. You you you build, you building a bigger
Speaker 1: world year. So keV, all right, start us off the
Speaker 1: background to what we're doing now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, in two minutes.
Speaker 3: Helps kidding, No, no, no, I can do like the elevator
Speaker 3: pitch because you know we've all who can't exactly you've
Speaker 3: been talking on stage as long as we have.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 3: So, Hi, my name is Kevin Miyl Garcia pronouns they them,
Speaker 3: although like I like they he and she just like
Speaker 3: depends on how I'm looking, looking like a dude. But
Speaker 3: I also like to tell people just like if you
Speaker 3: can lean towards them, I would prefer it. I am
Speaker 3: the author of two books, Bad Theology Kills was the
Speaker 3: first one and subtitle Undoing Toxic Belief and Reclaiming Your
Speaker 3: Spiritual Authority Brian I. I wrote that book could kind
Speaker 3: of like help with the first half of my life
Speaker 3: of asking the question like why do I believe what
Speaker 3: I do? Because I grew up in a good Christian home.
Speaker 3: My mom was the worship leader, my uncle was the pastor.
Speaker 3: I got baptized at age nine because I was I
Speaker 3: felt the Holy goes.
Speaker 2: Because you're supposed to God's moving.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, And I really do think from that moment on,
Speaker 3: I had this connection to the divine, to the christ
Speaker 3: and that was one thing I never questioned, which is
Speaker 3: very funny even after even now, as I say, like,
Speaker 3: I don't even know if I'm a Christian, but we'll
Speaker 3: get to that in a second. I realized I was
Speaker 3: queer in high school. My dad added me to my mom,
Speaker 3: and then I was in x gay ministry with Exodus
Speaker 3: International if you wish I had, But I was in
Speaker 3: that world for like twelve years of my own volition
Speaker 3: because like they promised hope for change, and then when
Speaker 3: they shuttered their doors and said we've made a grave
Speaker 3: mistake in the most literal sense of the word, I
Speaker 3: started questioning things. But I still kind of held onto
Speaker 3: a not a kind of I held onto a traditional
Speaker 3: belief for years, you know, fell from one pentecostal cult
Speaker 3: into like a missionary cult, and.
Speaker 2: Like did missionary work for a while.
Speaker 3: And then when I came out in that space, they
Speaker 3: were like, even though, like I'm not gonna lie, I
Speaker 3: go back to I have my old journals from that time.
Speaker 3: I was such a self righteous ass dude. I was
Speaker 3: zealous and I was trying to beast. I was the
Speaker 3: best Christian. Like if we're looking at the points, yes,
Speaker 3: I won, Yeah, and I was so mad because nobody
Speaker 3: else was as.
Speaker 2: Serious as I was. I'm just like, damn, damn putting
Speaker 2: it into work, y'all.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I got the I got the grace of the Cross,
Speaker 1: but I need less of the grace because yeah, I.
Speaker 2: Don't need grace.
Speaker 3: I need I need jewels in my crown, which yes,
Speaker 3: that's what I want.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 3: And so when I got kicked out of that world,
Speaker 3: best thing that could have happened to me, and I
Speaker 3: kind of started carving out of life for myself in Atlanta,
Speaker 3: h I was big into like I used to be
Speaker 3: somebody who was like considered myself a reformer and wanted
Speaker 3: to be somebody who actively organized within non affirming spaces
Speaker 3: to bring about affirmation. Then I realized that doesn't fucking work.
Speaker 1: So so for y'all who there is a the vast
Speaker 1: majority these listeners have no idea what any of these
Speaker 1: terms mean. What they mean is the idea is that
Speaker 1: within the Christian within the Christian tradition, especially in the
Speaker 1: States because Europe is different. They they've had this conversation
Speaker 1: decades ago.
Speaker 2: Yes, there is this space where there are.
Speaker 1: Churches who have gotten to a place to where they're
Speaker 1: completely accepting of the queer community, and the term for
Speaker 1: that is affirming we are gay. Affirming like I go
Speaker 1: to a church like this, where are we are lesbian?
Speaker 1: You know, pastors and this it's queer, it's trance or whatever, right,
Speaker 1: And then there are other places that they would call
Speaker 1: gay welcoming, which is like you could be here, just
Speaker 1: don't tell nobody, like just don't doming, but not affirming. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: like don't don't welcome. And most of the time that's
Speaker 1: where the Black church is, where in general it's like
Speaker 1: we all know the choir directors gay, Like everyone knows this,
Speaker 1: you know, and we just don't talk about it, you know,
Speaker 1: you just we know those two antis are not those
Speaker 1: two ants. Yes they are not best friends. She's not
Speaker 1: bringing her her best friend, that's her boot, Like we
Speaker 1: know it, you know, you just don't talk about it.
Speaker 2: And then there are the vast.
Speaker 1: Majority that are like y'all going to hell, like you
Speaker 1: you can just outright rejecting, Yes, yeah, you can be here,
Speaker 1: And a lot of times it's like it's real weird
Speaker 1: because like you could be here. We think you're talented,
Speaker 1: you're gifted, you're an amazing singer just you just you
Speaker 1: just can't be talk about officially in leadership, yeah, or
Speaker 1: you can't talk about it. It's either don't ask, don't tell,
Speaker 1: and you can fully participate, yeah, or you do tell
Speaker 1: and you limit your participation in the space for ever.
Speaker 3: But we love you, but we love you. But we
Speaker 3: love you, but we're going to continue to do the
Speaker 3: thing that hurts you. And how a friend is called
Speaker 3: an abusive relations an abusive love.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So that's what you felt like was your mission for
Speaker 1: a while, because it was always missional, always very dedicated
Speaker 1: to like the institution of the church.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and uh, you know, as I as my my
Speaker 3: person just began to expand you know, it was you know,
Speaker 3: as I read text from other faith, as I you know,
Speaker 3: started like my yogaic practices and actually leaning into yoga
Speaker 3: not just as like a floor exercise that people do
Speaker 3: and like make you look sexy after you you know,
Speaker 3: stole it from everybody else in India, but like as
Speaker 3: an actual spiritual path and a way of orienting yourself
Speaker 3: to the world.
Speaker 2: It changed my life.
Speaker 3: And after like as I'm going into my yoga practices,
Speaker 3: it like sent me like still like I have a
Speaker 3: weird devotion to Jesus as my teacher and my friend
Speaker 3: and my brother. Yeah, and that led me to begin
Speaker 3: showing other people how to cultivate spiritual practices for themselves.
Speaker 3: That felt good, That helped process some of the trauma
Speaker 3: that you've been carrying in your body for too long,
Speaker 3: and ask the question, Okay, so, like who is God
Speaker 3: to me now? And how am I going to connect
Speaker 3: to that thing? Whether I call it Source or love
Speaker 3: the universe, or maybe I still call it like you know,
Speaker 3: you know, call Jesus is part of that. It doesn't
Speaker 3: really matter to me. It matters that you connect with it,
Speaker 3: because what I'm aware of and what I truly believe
Speaker 3: is now more than ever, it is really, really important
Speaker 3: that we keep our spiritual practices because this shit is
Speaker 3: only going to get harder out here speaking of all
Speaker 3: the things we talked about before, and we need more
Speaker 3: people who are alive and awake and aware.
Speaker 2: So that we.
Speaker 3: Don't lose more of what we already have. It's like
Speaker 3: it's both like for a for personal liberation, but your
Speaker 3: personal liberation will help lead you to collective liberation. It's
Speaker 3: like the most delicious thing in the world and That's
Speaker 3: what I wrote about in my second book, which is
Speaker 3: called What Makes You Bloom, And it just came out
Speaker 3: last week, and I'm really proud of you.
Speaker 2: Oh let's go. We'll drop the link in the bio,
Speaker 2: well not in the bio show notes. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think what resonates about your story so much to
Speaker 1: me is, you know I I the different sort of.
Speaker 3: Like God tips shot such your talk. Sorry, yes she
Speaker 3: saw a squirrel and was I love it so real?
Speaker 3: Come here, come here girl. Good it's it shot out
Speaker 3: and now we can continue all the behind ambassaards listeners.
Speaker 1: I I have these not the same, but I have
Speaker 1: these sort of eras of the times or traditions that
Speaker 1: I existed in within within the faith too.
Speaker 2: There's my.
Speaker 1: Like my family of origin, you know, Citizens Design Missionary
Speaker 1: Baptist Church. You know what I'm saying, Like with with
Speaker 1: you know, with my my my grandma on them, you
Speaker 1: know that was like this is our family church, right,
Speaker 1: And then there was extended family. And then there was
Speaker 1: the like the church my parents found. Like I come
Speaker 1: from an inner city tradition. We weren't necessarily like evangelical.
Speaker 1: We were just like y'all, don't join gangs and get
Speaker 1: people pregnant.
Speaker 2: Like that was the extent, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: It wasn't.
Speaker 1: We had elements of purity culture, but we really didn't
Speaker 1: have that, you know, the sort of you know, white bread,
Speaker 1: because we weren't white people, you know what I mean. So,
Speaker 1: so we didn't have a lot of the sort of
Speaker 1: the issues that a lot of the other like American
Speaker 1: churches had, you know, we were we were very involved
Speaker 1: in civic duties, you know, working with the poor. Like
Speaker 1: you would ask anybody's grandma. Where your grandma out on Tuesday?
Speaker 1: She's at the homelessl ch you know. So we were
Speaker 1: already in that. I'm the child of a black panther,
Speaker 1: so I have histories of you know, the civil rights
Speaker 1: movement in Malcolm X and just all this like longer
Speaker 1: richer tradition of you know, the Black Church, you know,
Speaker 1: inner City Church in a lot of ways being the
Speaker 1: moral compass of America. You know, So you have you have,
Speaker 1: I have that in my heritage, you know. But I
Speaker 1: started reading more. Like I said, my father was, he
Speaker 1: was a street duty. He's also very intelligent. So like
Speaker 1: I was aware of Muslim traditions, I was aware of
Speaker 1: you know, African practices I was aware of. You know,
Speaker 1: I lived in a Mexican neighborhood, so I was aware
Speaker 1: of just other cultures. And I felt like for me,
Speaker 1: the next era for me was like I didn't get
Speaker 1: the academic rigor and where it was like this was
Speaker 1: very much about like liberation, but liberation only you know
Speaker 1: what I mean.
Speaker 2: But I'm like, but I'm smart, you know.
Speaker 1: So I thought somehow or another, I was smarter than
Speaker 1: my great grandma, like the holiest person I ever met,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: Like I thought I was smarter than her.
Speaker 1: So that's where the soare into like reform theology caught
Speaker 1: me because I was like this is this is it's academic,
Speaker 1: you know, so I can prove it.
Speaker 2: Yes, I can prove it.
Speaker 1: So I was like I was drinking it up, but
Speaker 1: I was drinking it up with a foundation of coming
Speaker 1: from liberation, you know. So for me, I was like
Speaker 1: it was it was very easy for me to any
Speaker 1: of the other like really toxic stuff at least for
Speaker 1: my perception to just kind of wash off me because
Speaker 1: I didn't come from this, you know.
Speaker 2: So I was like, I'm not swimming in these waters.
Speaker 1: I have this other foundation, right, that and so, and
Speaker 1: then you become a public figure.
Speaker 2: And then at that point, at that point, Nashville comes
Speaker 2: in the scene.
Speaker 1: And again, I'm from California, so I didn't know nothing
Speaker 1: about nobody.
Speaker 2: I thought people were a straight shooters. They'll tell you
Speaker 2: what they're thinking. That's what happened. That's what happened. I thought.
Speaker 1: You know, you walk into a building in Nashville and
Speaker 1: there's a Bible verse on the wall. You're like, Oh,
Speaker 1: it's dope. You know, because I'm from Cali. So I'm like,
Speaker 1: that's crazy. Y'all got like, dang, that's cool. I got
Speaker 1: religion out here. Y'all really be you know. First first
Speaker 1: question might ask you was like where you go to church?
Speaker 1: And I'll be like, what, like, yeah, yeah, you know.
Speaker 1: So to me, I was like, damn, y'all really about it.
Speaker 1: And then it was like and then and then the
Speaker 1: facade came down quick where I was like, oh, you
Speaker 1: motherfuckers are racist, this is it?
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I was like that so wow. And they
Speaker 2: don't even know it.
Speaker 1: You don't even know it, and and and the the
Speaker 1: first thing for me was just this whole like I
Speaker 1: couldn't get my brain around this, like just just this
Speaker 1: love for the Puritans and yeah, I'm like again, I'm
Speaker 1: the child of a panther. And I'm like, are y'all
Speaker 1: are we looking at the same timeline? You talking about
Speaker 1: the slave owners like we're the greatest, Like what did
Speaker 1: you talk about?
Speaker 3: These are the don't even talk about that part. They
Speaker 3: came here for religious freedom. Okay, That's what they came
Speaker 3: to America for. That's what I learned about the Puritans.
Speaker 3: And I'm like and I'm like, also so they could
Speaker 3: keep their slaves and burn their witches. And I'm like, yes,
Speaker 3: every good American they were the like even of their time,
Speaker 3: they were the Pharisees. I'm like, even of their time,
Speaker 3: they were the bad guys. Like I don't understand why
Speaker 3: y'all loved him so like so they really said like
Speaker 3: like no drinking, no smoke, and no sex before marriage. Also,
Speaker 3: if we even suspect you of any of these things,
Speaker 3: we're going to put you in the fucking stocks.
Speaker 1: You're going to stocks, yes, like wild And I'm like
Speaker 1: you're talking about the Valley of Vision And I'm like, okay,
Speaker 1: so you had time, So you're telling me in a.
Speaker 2: In a Gregorian error.
Speaker 1: You had time to lay in a pasture and contemplate
Speaker 1: the stars, which means that no one's growing your food
Speaker 1: or someone else is growing your food, and that someone
Speaker 1: else's growing your food are my ancestors. So you're telling
Speaker 1: me that they had their theology right because they gave
Speaker 1: black people the gospel. I'm like, you're talking about you're
Speaker 1: talking about the country, the nation that had the church
Speaker 1: four hundred years before you did.
Speaker 2: Like, is that what you're trying to tell on me
Speaker 2: right now? My mind?
Speaker 1: So for me, I was like I kind of had
Speaker 1: the same thing. I was like, oh, maybe y'all don't know,
Speaker 1: so let me start telling you.
Speaker 3: And then when they went and then you say and
Speaker 3: then you start telling them and they're like, well, we
Speaker 3: don't want to.
Speaker 2: Be divisive, Yes, yes, you know.
Speaker 3: It's that's the other thing is that it's this there's
Speaker 3: a dedication to the institution in such a way. Well
Speaker 3: because like if the church crumbles or like the not
Speaker 3: even the church, but just their institution. Because everybody is
Speaker 3: so individual, they think that they're one thing. Is God's mission,
Speaker 3: Yes to this city and the cities of the world,
Speaker 3: you know, like city, Yeah, it's it's it's like you
Speaker 3: don't really like they don't even see themselves as part
Speaker 3: of like a greater tradition of Christianity because they think
Speaker 3: if they're they're only on a business model.
Speaker 1: And it started and it started with Calvin. Like that's
Speaker 1: the part that bugged me out. I'm like, it starts
Speaker 1: with the Reformation, or they starts with Martin Luther. I'm like,
Speaker 1: you know that that's that's like fifteen hundred years later,
Speaker 1: Like are you are y'all serious?
Speaker 2: Like you did?
Speaker 3: Just like like this is the point. And also Martin Luther,
Speaker 3: while brilliant, bound by his time because that man hated
Speaker 3: Jewish people in a big wait. Nobody wants to talk
Speaker 3: about that the foundation to talk about Nobody want to
Speaker 3: talk about that.
Speaker 1: He's us an amazing called Jews and their lies come.
Speaker 1: He wrote that book, wrote that book. Your boy Johnathan
Speaker 1: Edwards was like, who was progressive for his time, was like,
Speaker 1: you know, if the Africans and the savages and the
Speaker 1: savage and the savages, the Native Americans were, if they're human,
Speaker 1: that means they're made in the image of God, which
Speaker 1: means we should give them the Gospel.
Speaker 2: I'm just not sure they're human. That's your boy John
Speaker 2: at the Edwards. That's your boy.
Speaker 1: John had been in us. It's not sure yet that's
Speaker 1: your boy. That's that's your church father. So so to me,
Speaker 1: I was like, oh yeah, this the cement has settled,
Speaker 1: Like oh yeah, like we're yeah. I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: y'all okay. And the idea like which I also mentioned
Speaker 1: in the intro, which you didn't hear but you'll know now,
Speaker 1: is like we're talking about not even eleven percent of
Speaker 1: the full Christian experience. Like you're eleven percent and you've
Speaker 1: made yourself to police for the rest of it.
Speaker 2: Anyway, Yeah, we just happened to exist.
Speaker 1: But like, but like you, there were things about this,
Speaker 1: you know, the conquering line of Judah, you know, Christ
Speaker 1: the victor, this liberator, this, this you know Moses character
Speaker 1: that you know again for our tradition is like we
Speaker 1: look at Exodus and we're like that's it. Like, look,
Speaker 1: you know, we're moving from slavery to freedom. You feel me,
Speaker 1: whether it's in our physical bodies or in our spiritual bodies,
Speaker 1: this narrative of again, of liberation is something that it
Speaker 1: still resonates, and a liberation that's not just that's not
Speaker 1: just internal, that's not just the personal, but it is
Speaker 1: collective and it is for the world. Like I'm like,
Speaker 1: I still I still find this a beautiful starting to me, Yes,
Speaker 1: I still find this a beautiful story. And and then
Speaker 1: I see that story all over the world like in
Speaker 1: other faiths, in other traditions and other this.
Speaker 2: And I'm like, hello, that's really it. Yeah.
Speaker 3: The further I went into yogic studies, the more I
Speaker 3: found I'm just like, oh, wait, I know this story,
Speaker 3: I know this or I know this idea by another name. Yes, yes,
Speaker 3: And that just for me, like just it didn't like
Speaker 3: freak me out. It made me so excited because I'm
Speaker 3: just like that the same spirit that raised Christs from
Speaker 3: the dead, it's the same one talking to Bagua and
Speaker 3: Ninianan does, the same one talking to potentially is the
Speaker 3: same one talking to the prophet Mahin, And it's the
Speaker 3: same one talking to et cetera, et cetera. It's the
Speaker 3: same one talking to you and your still small voice
Speaker 3: when you're really quiet and actually are listening.
Speaker 1: H h. And and then even on top of that,
Speaker 1: and and all of those people's in traditions had to
Speaker 1: deal with the bullshit, just like we had to deal
Speaker 1: with our bullshit, you know what I'm saying. Yeah, so,
Speaker 1: but the but the story still resonates. So I think
Speaker 1: you coming back around to that and then landing on
Speaker 1: this phrase, bad theology kills hm. Can you expand that
Speaker 1: a little more to tell me what you mean by that? Yes,
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just it's very clear. I hope it
Speaker 1: is that theology kills period.
Speaker 3: And to add more words to that, I feel like
Speaker 3: you boil it down. It's three words long. But what
Speaker 3: I mean by bad theology is that any thought about
Speaker 3: God that would lead someone inevitably to the conclusion that
Speaker 3: their life is not worth continuing for any reason is bad.
Speaker 3: And I think it's worth questioning at minimum. If your
Speaker 3: theology is causing people to kill themselves, yeah, then then
Speaker 3: you should question that. And so I started with like
Speaker 3: the question of queerness and being you know, can you
Speaker 3: be ga and Christian? That was the question I started
Speaker 3: out with because that's what I was when I started
Speaker 3: that journey. Because the thought that homosexuality or queerness or
Speaker 3: transness was an aberration or said another way, a abomination
Speaker 3: for God. You can't know unless you've walked through it.
Speaker 3: The sheer depth of shame you feel when you realize
Speaker 3: it's just not going away, and you think that this
Speaker 3: source of all love, who you thought was on your side,
Speaker 3: actually thinks you're disgusting. Yeah, Like you learn to be
Speaker 3: disgusted with yourself and to the point where, like you
Speaker 3: convince yourself that it would be better for me to
Speaker 3: end my sinful body than to continue on sending in
Speaker 3: the world or causing other people to sin. That's going
Speaker 3: to be my contribution. That's what I thought, And that
Speaker 3: is so sad.
Speaker 2: I'm like, my eyes are watering right now, I just
Speaker 2: thinking about it.
Speaker 3: That's what I thought. And those are the thoughts that
Speaker 3: nearly killed me. And then when I began to think
Speaker 3: something different. You know, a good theology, you know, like
Speaker 3: Jesus said, you're gonna know a tree by its fruits.
Speaker 3: Good trees bear good fruit. Bad trees bear bad fruit,
Speaker 3: and they cannot bear the opposite thing. And so if
Speaker 3: the theology that says that marriage is only between one
Speaker 3: man and one woman for forever and it's you know,
Speaker 3: causing someone to kill themselves, I mean, I really think
Speaker 3: you should reconsider dude, Like and because the thing is
Speaker 3: I say this in the book, I say it all
Speaker 3: over the place.
Speaker 2: It's just like I know dead people.
Speaker 3: I know people who did not survive in order to
Speaker 3: tell their story. I know people from my Exodus days.
Speaker 3: So many people who just were the most faithful people
Speaker 3: in the world and just it became so dissonant within
Speaker 3: themselves and they felt so bad because we can't help
Speaker 3: but love who we love. Mary Oliver says, you just
Speaker 3: got to let the soft animal of your body love
Speaker 3: what it loves. And we wouldn't do that because of
Speaker 3: somebody else's thought about God and what they thought God thought,
Speaker 3: rather than going in and finding what does what do
Speaker 3: what God?
Speaker 2: What does God think about me?
Speaker 1: Wow?
Speaker 3: And there was a thought that finally came up as
Speaker 3: I was like working on you know, myself that really
Speaker 3: allowed me to get free in a bigger way, was like, okay, well,
Speaker 3: like I said, fuck it, even if God will not
Speaker 3: love me after this, I will love me no matter what.
Speaker 3: And that is the thought that helped me survive and
Speaker 3: allowed me to get through because I recognize that the
Speaker 3: love that I was seeking after was not going to
Speaker 3: be found in another church or another pulpit, or in
Speaker 3: another or in a better theology, but into recognizing that
Speaker 3: I was so good, I'm so wonderful. Yeah, and when
Speaker 3: I believe something opposite to that, it does this. It
Speaker 3: causes me to cry because it's not true. Yeah, I'm
Speaker 3: so good and so worthy. And when I remember that,
Speaker 3: when I can focus on that and just hold that
Speaker 3: in my attention, the peace passeth understanding comes upon me,
Speaker 3: and that to me is more real than anything I
Speaker 3: did in church, you know, and like it also to
Speaker 3: finally come to that record like realization allows me to
Speaker 3: know that like none of it's wasted.
Speaker 2: Yea, oh, sorry to go off, buddy. Yeah.
Speaker 3: When I say that theology kills, I mean that there
Speaker 3: are things that we practice that cause people to hurt
Speaker 3: themselves and if not to physically take them lives, to
Speaker 3: live a life so small that it's painful to exist.
Speaker 3: And it does not have to be this way.
Speaker 2: I didn't even know how to, like, I don't even
Speaker 2: know how. I'm just like, dude, Yeah, That's why I'm
Speaker 2: so serious about this too, is because it's really like
Speaker 2: news to some people. Yeah, this is news to some people.
Speaker 1: Yes, I I thought to myself again as like, obviously
Speaker 1: this is not my story.
Speaker 2: But sure.
Speaker 1: The way that it resonated with me was like I
Speaker 1: in a number of ways. There were things that I'm like, Okay,
Speaker 1: if I'm coming to this tradition, this theology, and you're saying, okay,
Speaker 1: there is a you know, we're going to do the
Speaker 1: depravity theology. Okay, there's a depravity in my soul. Yes,
Speaker 1: that needs to be redeemed. I can accept that. Okay,
Speaker 1: you know, sure, but I'm coming to that as myself, Like, Okay,
Speaker 1: there are there are things about me that, for example,
Speaker 1: like I mean, I come to the Cross if you
Speaker 1: will as a black man. I don't leave the cross
Speaker 1: not black, Like I'm still a black dude, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. I'm like, these are things that I
Speaker 1: can't that the conversion salvation doesn't erase that I'm still
Speaker 1: a black dude, Like is what I am?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: And so when I would hear people speak in terms
Speaker 1: of membership in this kingdom means you have to lay
Speaker 1: everything down, and I'm like, well, put your identity in
Speaker 1: crisis to truly erase. Yeah, you think you are, And
Speaker 1: I'm like, well, what do you everything? They're like, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, there's no Jew or Greek male or female
Speaker 1: And I'm like, but are you married to a female?
Speaker 1: Like I was she still a female? I thought you
Speaker 1: said there was no male or female. And I'm like,
Speaker 1: do you hear, like what did you say like that
Speaker 1: verse in context for a second number one? Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm just like, he's not talking about the obliteration. He's
Speaker 1: talking about hierarchy. He's talking about hierarchy. Yeah, there's so
Speaker 1: many things that have been just so abused that if
Speaker 1: someone like you said, if someone sat down next to
Speaker 1: you and was like, that's not what that shit says
Speaker 1: at all. The nineteen forty nine thing that like holmostsexual
Speaker 1: wasn't wasn't even in a book until nineteen forty nine. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. And it's a bad translation.
Speaker 1: You don't know what that word says.
Speaker 3: But you've never read it because you've only read it
Speaker 3: and badly translated English, which was translated from Latin, which
Speaker 3: is not even what I'm written in.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, so like, yeah, it's awful. Oh my god,
Speaker 1: you read Araonaic. That is crazy. Yeah, you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: so the school is different. So so I say that
Speaker 1: to say I resonated when I thought to myself about Okay,
Speaker 1: so my own sexuality. I can when when fifth grade happened,
Speaker 1: and I'm changing names for the innocent because I don't.
Speaker 2: Know who this is.
Speaker 1: But when sure Kelly Johnson sparked, finally sparked the boob
Speaker 1: and I caught that, and I caught the side of it.
Speaker 1: I don't know what happened. I just something in me,
Speaker 1: something in me with bump. And I was like, hello, twelve, Hello, hell,
Speaker 1: that is called testosterone.
Speaker 2: What you are having.
Speaker 1: You don't have to pee, this is this is a normal,
Speaker 1: this is what happens. And I was like, this isn't
Speaker 1: and like every twelve year old boy, this is incredibly inconvenient.
Speaker 2: This is very embarrassing.
Speaker 1: I don't I wish this didn't happen all the time,
Speaker 1: but it did so so I'm like, I didn't. I
Speaker 1: don't know what to tell you. It's what happened. So
Speaker 1: as I sat, as I sat across from some of
Speaker 1: my closest friends, who finally as we became older, was like,
Speaker 1: oh wait, I'm gay.
Speaker 2: It was their experience was exactly the saying. It was like,
Speaker 2: I don't know what to tell you. Bobby walked by
Speaker 2: and this happened.
Speaker 1: I don't know It was incredibly inconvenient and very embarrassing,
Speaker 1: but triple the embarrassment that you're experiencing because it wasn't
Speaker 1: supposed to happen at all, you know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I remember Robbie. Yeah, ninth grade Art Foundations class,
Speaker 3: let's go. I like, I remember I noticed him, But
Speaker 3: I was.
Speaker 2: Like, why why do I keep looking? Why do we
Speaker 2: keep looking? Why do I keep looking?
Speaker 1: Why do I keep And I was like, this is
Speaker 1: what they're talking about. This is attraction. I was like, shit,
Speaker 1: yeah right, yeah, it's really Yeah. It's like, well, this
Speaker 1: is bad. I can't imagine I honestly cannot put myself
Speaker 1: living in the experience you lived in and feeling that
Speaker 1: like surubstantial. Yeah, it's like, yeah, you can't turn it off.
Speaker 1: I can't turn it off, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: I was thought to control it, but I can't turn
Speaker 1: it off. No one told me to, No one told
Speaker 1: me that, not like this, like you I'm saying. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: when I started looking, don't touch. It was just like,
Speaker 1: don't look or touch or think about it or even
Speaker 1: like it. You're not allowed to like this. And I'm like, if, like,
Speaker 1: how did I wouldn't be much more convenient if I didn't.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, trust me and believe, like, yeah, I
Speaker 3: think it's very funny when anybody thinks about sexuality, especially
Speaker 3: when it comes to like as a choice, Like your
Speaker 3: attractions are phenomena in some ways, there's not a there's
Speaker 3: not a gene to it, like even though like there's
Speaker 3: certain things that we can point to maybe, but there's
Speaker 3: not a definitive Yeah, this is why this is.
Speaker 2: And also that's not even how humanity is even defined
Speaker 2: like that and that's it and that's a boring story.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm just like, Gene, you're like what, I'm just
Speaker 1: like I like to think of it as like this
Speaker 1: is just one of the like most beautiful, like especially
Speaker 1: in humanity, we get to experience love and and and
Speaker 1: meaning and just you know, to again Mary Oliver, let
Speaker 1: the soft animal of our body loves amazing.
Speaker 3: I think that's the that's God. I think that's God
Speaker 3: expressing God's Self through each and every one of us.
Speaker 3: God wanting to know what it is to be in
Speaker 3: a body and an experience like mine. God wanting to
Speaker 3: know and you know, live the world through youth. This
Speaker 3: is a very process theology kind of position. That I
Speaker 3: taken in this mouth. But I really do think that
Speaker 3: when I stopped seeing like, oh, like you know, like
Speaker 3: you said, you lose your identity in Christ, right, and
Speaker 3: then anything that comes out that's outside of their prescription
Speaker 3: is an aperation or an abomination, and you've got to
Speaker 3: reel it back in, you know, or you realize, luve
Speaker 3: be too gay, don't be too anything besides this, Yeah,
Speaker 3: because the out that that what gets pushed out of.
Speaker 1: That machine when you're saying is our identities in Christ.
Speaker 1: It's like, man, this identity looks more like yours. I'm like, no,
Speaker 1: it's just your culture. Like what you're saying is how
Speaker 1: I want to come out and become you. And I'm like,
Speaker 1: I'm not you, So I say you, I can never
Speaker 1: be me from being you.
Speaker 2: Want to be.
Speaker 1: Yeah, But then I'm going, I'm going what what really
Speaker 1: like started me down? This like evolution of being like,
Speaker 1: oh no, I'm on cabsite? Is uh you start hearing if?
Speaker 1: When when I hear anything, I go when when someone
Speaker 1: says a statement, whether it's a law, policy or whatever,
Speaker 1: my first thought is, how is this going to affect
Speaker 1: the oppressed? How do you talk to how does this
Speaker 1: affect my own aspect black people, and how has this
Speaker 1: affect black people forever? Right? So if I hear someone
Speaker 1: talking about whatever they're talking about and it reminds me
Speaker 1: of how you talked about black people, then I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is wrong. So so for me, it was like
Speaker 1: what we what?
Speaker 2: We love? We love the trans, we love the clear queer.
Speaker 2: It's just I don't want.
Speaker 1: Them around our children, you know, or don't make me,
Speaker 1: don't shove it down, you know, well as long as
Speaker 1: they stay over there. I was like, huh, it's interesting,
Speaker 1: So you you know what I'm saying. So you don't
Speaker 1: want your children to be friends?
Speaker 2: Wow?
Speaker 1: Okay, so you don't think so you think that them
Speaker 1: asking for just equal protection under the Constitution is somehow
Speaker 1: an affront to your freedoms?
Speaker 2: I remember that? Yeah, I remember that. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Like the thing that comes to mind right now especially
Speaker 3: is just like the fight for trans children having access
Speaker 3: to what they need when really there's like well parents writes,
Speaker 3: parents are some just like there's nothing more parents rights
Speaker 3: centric than allowing a doctor and a parent and their
Speaker 3: child to make it get with themselves.
Speaker 2: I don't understand. I thought that's what you well.
Speaker 3: That's what you wanted not to mention that gender affirming care.
Speaker 3: It doesn't just extends beyond trans kids. Like, yeah, children
Speaker 3: have been you know, children with vaginas and reproductive systems.
Speaker 3: Girls are starting their periods sooner and sooner because who
Speaker 3: knows the hell why, and some as early as third grade,
Speaker 3: and so in order to stop that from happening, they
Speaker 3: introduce puberty blockers until they hit you know, an appropriate weight.
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally.
Speaker 3: And that's not that allows them to be a child,
Speaker 3: that allows them to really be who they are rather
Speaker 3: than having to grow up more quickly. And SIS girls
Speaker 3: are a higher recipient of puberty blockers than anybody else.
Speaker 3: Women who start menopause early. My mother, for example, has
Speaker 3: been on hormone replacement therapy since she was thirty when
Speaker 3: she got menopause super early.
Speaker 2: Wow. So I'm just.
Speaker 3: Like, like you're thinking about like a gender firming care.
Speaker 3: It's not just about trans folks who you know, need
Speaker 3: to get surgeries, although that is part of it, but
Speaker 3: it's it's it's saving children's lives, it's saving CIS people's lives.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I remember how you wanted you wanted us
Speaker 1: to stay out of your personal choices and for you
Speaker 1: to not wear a mask.
Speaker 2: I know where did when? Did? Where did that?
Speaker 1: How about you stay out of my family's business, my business,
Speaker 1: the government out of our business. Like yeah, I thought
Speaker 1: you wanted the government out of our business. Now you
Speaker 1: want the government in our business. I'm confused anyway, Uh,
Speaker 1: I want to try to like land this plane here
Speaker 1: with landa some of some of the beauty that you're doing.
Speaker 2: So I know you do these? You do these? Are
Speaker 2: they counseling sessions? Are they? Yeah? So what are they? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Like tell them about the and and some if you
Speaker 1: can some like beautiful like success stories if you will.
Speaker 2: Yeah. People reclaiming their their spirituality.
Speaker 3: So I am what I started doing a couple of
Speaker 3: years ago. I've been calling them spiritual recovery cohorts, Okay,
Speaker 3: And it's basically what it sounds like. Do you want
Speaker 3: to recover your spirituality after you've lost it, after you've
Speaker 3: burnt your faith to the ground and like deconstructed into oblivion. Yeah,
Speaker 3: because I really again, like it's possible to feel connected
Speaker 3: to God, to love to your truest self, and you can,
Speaker 3: like it doesn't take that much. It takes a little
Speaker 3: bit of intention and willingness and so over the you
Speaker 3: know the class I'm teaching right now that begins on
Speaker 3: March fifth, by the way, So if it's not but
Speaker 3: March fifth, come hang out with us.
Speaker 2: It'll be out by this.
Speaker 3: Yes, But what I teach is basically like, here's how
Speaker 3: we meditate, here's how we get quiet. And also when
Speaker 3: the thoughts come into our mind, this is how we
Speaker 3: deal with this is not deal with that. This is
Speaker 3: how we work with them when our big feelings start
Speaker 3: coming up. This is how we work with them when
Speaker 3: our inner child needs attention. This is how we love
Speaker 3: them when our body is feeling pain. This is how
Speaker 3: we help ourselves. And I don't tell people anything that
Speaker 3: they have to believe. I tell them, don't believe anything
Speaker 3: I tell you either, question everything, test everything to see
Speaker 3: if it's true. And what I'm telling people to test them,
Speaker 3: just like if you give yourself as little as five
Speaker 3: minutes a day, you can feel so connected to yourself
Speaker 3: and your life can change in a beautiful direction. And
Speaker 3: by change, I mean you can feel better. Yeah, that's
Speaker 3: like the baseline I keep. What I tell people is
Speaker 3: like your spiritual practice, if you just make it really
Speaker 3: simple this is about me feeling good because I tell
Speaker 3: people I don't do it because I'm holy. I do
Speaker 3: it because I'm the most stressed out motherfucker I know.
Speaker 3: And if I'm not connected to myself, to source to love,
Speaker 3: I'm going to be a bitch. And I say that
Speaker 3: in like, you know, the exact thing. I'm mean, kind
Speaker 3: of mean to people and so like. But again when
Speaker 3: i'm but when I am connected, like you know, I
Speaker 3: can cry about how beautiful and wonderful I feel because
Speaker 3: I'm connected to that source. It's like, you know, you
Speaker 3: can strip all the esoterism out of it. You don't
Speaker 3: have to believe in quote unquote God to be a
Speaker 3: spiritual person.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 3: Again, it's like, I don't care what you call it.
Speaker 3: You're just like I want you to be open to
Speaker 3: the possibility that maybe there is great love for you here.
Speaker 3: That's my favorite line is there is great love for
Speaker 3: you here. And what I love about the work, like
Speaker 3: I've worked with everyone from like pastors to therapists and
Speaker 3: chaplains and then everyday people who are just like trying
Speaker 3: to like figure out how to create a spiritual life
Speaker 3: on purpose. Yeah, And what I love is like a
Speaker 3: few highlights are like people getting rid of the idea
Speaker 3: of being afraid of hell. I was like, I don't
Speaker 3: believe in hell, but I'm sure scared I'm going there.
Speaker 3: That's dead and I'm dead ass. It's like yeah, and
Speaker 3: it's like like we all laugh at it, but also
Speaker 3: it's just like, when I really think about it, I'm
Speaker 3: afraid of separation from God.
Speaker 2: Even now.
Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, well would you like to Yeah, it's valid,
Speaker 1: you know, like, yeah, I fel like this is the
Speaker 1: center of all creation and my being and I don't
Speaker 1: want to be separated. Yeah, And it's like, oh, like
Speaker 1: you when you realize that heaven is the realization that
Speaker 1: you never left grace like you've always been. It's just
Speaker 1: that our awareness to Love's presence gets smucked up by everything,
Speaker 1: and so like, you know, being able to see people
Speaker 1: like move from a place of like feeling very cut off,
Speaker 1: feeling like I cannot God is unsafe, spirituality is not
Speaker 1: for me anymore, to learning how to connect with their
Speaker 1: heart again and learning and like being able to say, like,
Speaker 1: even on my worst days, I'm worthy of love and
Speaker 1: feeling good and even on my best days, I'm not
Speaker 1: anymore holy.
Speaker 2: I'm just more connected.
Speaker 3: It's it's people realizing that so much of their experience
Speaker 3: is in their control and they have so much more
Speaker 3: power than they know. And it's like, what would it
Speaker 3: be like for you to connect with love every single
Speaker 3: day and to see that, like, you know, to see
Speaker 3: like queer people who have been burned by religion reclaim
Speaker 3: a spirituality for themselves. Damn is incredible to like really
Speaker 3: like people like, sorry, the way I put it, it is
Speaker 3: just like, oh, you met you finally met the Christ
Speaker 3: because you looked in the mirror, bitch and you and
Speaker 3: you loved what you saw. Congratulations. This is salvation, dude.
Speaker 3: And it's so much more simple than we have been
Speaker 3: led to believe. And I'm just so very passionate about
Speaker 3: individuals and you know, yeah, individuals finding this out for
Speaker 3: themselves because like, imagine what we could do with all
Speaker 3: of us. Yeah, we're no longer shit talking ourselves. We're
Speaker 3: no longer trying to acquiesce to like a white version
Speaker 3: of success or a patriarchal version of relationships or an
Speaker 3: institutional version of religion. I'm so I'm so passionate people
Speaker 3: having a relationship with God. Yeah, and it's oh it's
Speaker 3: right here, man, And that's like being able to like
Speaker 3: teach people how to do that. It's the greatest thing
Speaker 3: I get to do with my time, the greatest thing
Speaker 3: I've ever done. And like, yeah, I hope I do
Speaker 3: it for the rest of my life.
Speaker 2: I feel like I just had a session. Man, this.
Speaker 1: I cannot thank you enough just for what you're putting
Speaker 1: in the world and for coming.
Speaker 2: Into our little feed here.
Speaker 1: Man. These like, like I said, these like just these
Speaker 1: os oases of amazing shit happening, even in spaces that
Speaker 1: sound and feel terrible, that there are people out here
Speaker 1: really making the world better.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much.
Speaker 1: For doing this pod and just for doing doing it,
Speaker 1: you know, like you knew right, yeah, you know he
Speaker 1: was running around the world. Yeah, he was running around
Speaker 1: the world trying to be a missionary little did you know.
Speaker 3: You know what's funny is like so many people have
Speaker 3: been prophising, oh, you're going to be a pastor. You're
Speaker 3: just set, you're setting the seeds for when you're going to.
Speaker 2: Be a pastor.
Speaker 3: And I was like, I'm not going to be a
Speaker 3: pastor because in my head, I think because I'm gay
Speaker 3: and I'm eventually going to I'm allowed, not allowed to
Speaker 3: do that, And in some ways I don't think.
Speaker 2: They were wrong, because you are. I.
Speaker 3: When I think about the role of what a pastor
Speaker 3: should be, you know, you know from from my from
Speaker 3: what I'm doing, it's like I'm shepherding people through a
Speaker 3: specific season of their life to get them to to
Speaker 3: get them going on their own path. I have a
Speaker 3: specific I work with people for a specific time in
Speaker 3: their life, and I get them back on their path.
Speaker 2: That's my job.
Speaker 3: And I'm honored. Thank you for having me, Thank you
Speaker 3: for being here. I also I love your you know,
Speaker 3: I love your work. I think you are such a
Speaker 3: stational artist. I can't wait to come to a dance
Speaker 3: party in La over the summer. I miss them every time,
Speaker 3: and I'm just like, I need.
Speaker 2: Man, you have to need to. You're gonna get you
Speaker 2: a little little little long beach.
Speaker 1: Bull out here, you know, and from your lips to
Speaker 1: goddess ears, listen, let me tell you that they there,
Speaker 1: we got them, they there.
Speaker 2: Let's be there for you. Yep. I'll wear my I'll
Speaker 2: wear my I'll wear my shortest shorts and my I
Speaker 2: was like man man Sheldon Shuldon thighs. You know what
Speaker 2: I mean. Man's that's the thing.
Speaker 1: It's just like I know, like, what's the best assets
Speaker 1: on me are? And it's you gotta know what you
Speaker 1: come with.
Speaker 3: It's the it's these two juicy lips and these two
Speaker 3: tree trunk thighs. Hallelujah, come on now, fearfully and wonderfully made.
Speaker 2: So please give them your your at mentions.
Speaker 1: The website all that so they could grab these books.
Speaker 3: Yes, you can follow me across the internet at the
Speaker 3: Kevin Garcia. That's th h E Kevin Garcia. My website
Speaker 3: is the Kevin Garcia. You can get my new book
Speaker 3: called what Makes You Bloom, cultivating a practice for connecting
Speaker 3: with your defined self. Whether you know find books, it's
Speaker 3: called please try to buy from like bookshop dot org
Speaker 3: if you could. My first book is called Bad Theology Kills.
Speaker 3: Everything's available on my website. And if you're listening to
Speaker 3: this before March fifth, the Spiritual Renaissance Cohort for Spring
Speaker 3: twenty twenty four starts March five. It's going to be
Speaker 3: a badass time. I'm also opening I have spots open
Speaker 3: for one to one coaching available. It's all the website
Speaker 3: blah blah blah, and please be sure to subscribe share
Speaker 3: Hood Politics everywhere. Please please rate us in the Apple
Speaker 3: Podcast Store and on Spotify because it seriously helps with
Speaker 3: getting our ratings up. And you hear props say that
Speaker 3: every single week probably and do you do it? No,
Speaker 3: because you're a jerk.
Speaker 1: But you're going to do it now because I'm guilting
Speaker 1: you because I'm a puritan. Let's go on on that note.
Speaker 2: We'll see y'all next week.
Speaker 1: WHOA All right, now, don't you hit stop on this pod?
Speaker 1: You better listen to these credits. I need you to
Speaker 1: finish this thing so I can get the download numbers. Okay,
Speaker 1: so don't stop it yet, but listen. This was recorded
Speaker 1: in East Lost, boil Heights by your boy Propaganda. Tap
Speaker 1: in with me at prop hip hop dot com. If
Speaker 1: you're in the Coldbrew coffee we got terraform Coldbrew. You
Speaker 1: can go there dot com and use promo code Hood
Speaker 1: get twenty percent off get yourself some coffee. This was mixed, edited,
Speaker 1: and mastered by your boy Matt Alsowski killing the Beast
Speaker 1: Softly check out his website Matdowsowski dot com.
Speaker 2: I'm a spell it for you because I know M.
Speaker 1: A T T O S O W s ki dot
Speaker 1: com dot com. He got more music and stuff like
Speaker 1: that on there, so gonna check out the heat. Politics
Speaker 1: is a member of cool Zone Media, Executive produced by
Speaker 1: Sophie Lichterman, part of the iHeartMedia podcast network. Your theme
Speaker 1: music and scoring is also by the one and overly
Speaker 1: mattow Sowski. Still killing the beat softly, so listen. Don't
Speaker 1: let nobody lie to you. If you understand urban living,
Speaker 1: you understand politics.
Speaker 2: These people is not smarter than you.
Speaker 1: We'll see y'all next week, oh Man