WEBVTT - The Sordid History of Bachelor/Bachelorette Parties 0:00:01.440 --> 0:00:04.240 Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of I 0:00:04.360 --> 0:00:13.119 Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, 0:00:13.160 --> 0:00:15.640 and there's Chuck and Cherry's here too, and we're just 0:00:15.760 --> 0:00:21.360 batching it on this episode of Stuff you Should Know. Yeah, 0:00:22.160 --> 0:00:24.800 uh So before we get going, my friend, we want 0:00:24.880 --> 0:00:27.640 to alert people we've got a little something special at 0:00:27.640 --> 0:00:31.720 the end of this episode. Our former colleague who was 0:00:31.840 --> 0:00:35.879 no longer with My Heart but dare I say, one 0:00:35.880 --> 0:00:37.440 of the best dudes ever and one of our most 0:00:37.440 --> 0:00:42.040 beloved colleagues, Man Guesh, had to condure he has is 0:00:42.080 --> 0:00:44.720 doing his own little uh like he calls it his 0:00:44.760 --> 0:00:48.919 own little podcast shingle, and he's making shows now and 0:00:48.960 --> 0:00:51.600 he has a great new show that he's launched called 0:00:51.640 --> 0:00:57.000 Obsessions Colan Wild Chocolate, hosted by Rowan Jacobson, And we're 0:00:57.040 --> 0:01:00.120 gonna play a preview that at the end of the EPISO. So, 0:01:00.360 --> 0:01:03.000 but we wanted to tell people what it was about, right, Yeah, 0:01:03.000 --> 0:01:05.000 it's pretty awesome. Like they kind of call it the 0:01:05.040 --> 0:01:08.880 Indiana Jones of chocolate, where basically these people who are 0:01:08.920 --> 0:01:12.440 like really into chocolate, chocolate makers are like, yeah, all 0:01:12.440 --> 0:01:15.200 this cocao that we're finding is really good and sounds 0:01:15.240 --> 0:01:18.320 better than others. But we've heard legend that deep in 0:01:18.360 --> 0:01:21.440 the Amazon there's cocao that will knock your socks off 0:01:21.680 --> 0:01:24.480 and they go to find it, and Man Guesh made 0:01:24.480 --> 0:01:27.760 a podcast out of it. So it's really interesting stuff. 0:01:27.800 --> 0:01:30.600 It's really well made. Man Guest is really good and 0:01:30.600 --> 0:01:33.800 knows what he's doing with podcasting, so congratulations to him 0:01:33.840 --> 0:01:37.800 on his podcast company Kaleidoscope, and on Wild Chocolate too. 0:01:37.880 --> 0:01:40.720 That's right, so check it out Obsessions, Wild Chocolate. It's 0:01:40.760 --> 0:01:43.760 wherever you can get podcasts and stick around after listener 0:01:43.800 --> 0:01:46.920 mail where we're gonna have a little preview of it. Okay, Chuck, 0:01:47.160 --> 0:01:50.960 so we're back at it. Then that's right. A little 0:01:50.960 --> 0:01:54.360 c a here. This one's probably rated at least PG 0:01:54.520 --> 0:01:57.440 thirt I would say that, yeah, I mean it's not 0:01:57.560 --> 0:02:02.880 rated are necessarily, but you know there's it's about bachelor 0:02:02.880 --> 0:02:06.080 and bachelorette party. So I'm just gonna be talking about 0:02:06.120 --> 0:02:08.040 some stuff you want You do you really want your 0:02:08.120 --> 0:02:11.680 kid to learn about bachelor parties? No? I don't either. 0:02:12.840 --> 0:02:16.040 It's a fair warning. And if you are in other 0:02:16.120 --> 0:02:18.240 parts of the world and you're like a bachelor party, 0:02:18.280 --> 0:02:21.120 what's that we're talking about a stag party those of 0:02:21.160 --> 0:02:25.040 you in the UK, Ireland and Canada. In Australia, we're 0:02:25.040 --> 0:02:29.640 talking about the Bucks party for that was that was Boston. 0:02:31.040 --> 0:02:34.120 And by the way, have you seen Kevin kin f himself? 0:02:34.639 --> 0:02:36.960 Uh no, I have not. We got recommended that from 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:39.800 a lot of people after the sitcoms up. It's yeah, 0:02:39.919 --> 0:02:42.000 it's good. That's why I picked it up too. I 0:02:42.040 --> 0:02:44.840 mean I was familiar with her, aware of it, but yeah, 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:47.640 it's definitely definitely worth watching. Yeah right, I've only seen 0:02:47.680 --> 0:02:49.880 the first episode and I'm like, this is this has 0:02:49.960 --> 0:02:51.480 legs for sure? What does that have to do with 0:02:51.520 --> 0:02:56.160 Bucks parties in Australia. It's set in Worcester and the 0:02:57.520 --> 0:03:00.840 house from Boston, yes exactly. And a lead I don't 0:03:01.000 --> 0:03:04.280 know the actor's name, but she, you know, from um 0:03:04.520 --> 0:03:08.519 Ship's Creek, the daughter sister from Ship's Creek is an 0:03:08.560 --> 0:03:14.160 amazing like Boston accent without overdoing it. Like she's really good. 0:03:14.280 --> 0:03:18.079 So it's a good, good show. Chuck. Uh well, quickly then, 0:03:18.120 --> 0:03:21.840 while we're seguing or diverting, I was just in Boston 0:03:22.639 --> 0:03:24.360 and I just wanted to shout out. I went up 0:03:24.360 --> 0:03:27.919 there for a pavement show and from my hotel room. 0:03:27.960 --> 0:03:30.440 I looked out and what was sitting there but the 0:03:30.480 --> 0:03:34.800 Wilber Theater. Yeah, our Boston Live Performance Home, right outside 0:03:34.840 --> 0:03:37.480 my hotel window and right next door to the Whang 0:03:37.640 --> 0:03:44.160 Theater where Pavement played, And I probably bumped into seven 0:03:44.240 --> 0:03:48.040 different stuff you should know listeners cool who all came 0:03:48.120 --> 0:03:50.480 up and chatted it up, sat right next to a 0:03:50.520 --> 0:03:55.360 couple and promised them live showed freebees, which they need 0:03:55.360 --> 0:03:56.760 to email me. By the way, if you're out there 0:03:56.760 --> 0:03:59.920 and listening, it's the only way could happen. We'll probably 0:04:00.000 --> 0:04:02.440 be in Boston this year. Is a better than average 0:04:02.520 --> 0:04:04.640 chance when you say, I would say so. So just 0:04:04.760 --> 0:04:07.040 a big shout out to the Boston Nights because they're 0:04:07.040 --> 0:04:09.920 always super supportive and nice. And I think my friend 0:04:10.040 --> 0:04:11.640 from high school and his friends who were with us 0:04:11.640 --> 0:04:14.880 were like, jeezus, chuck that famous and Nights No, not 0:04:15.000 --> 0:04:18.040 at all, Like this is like this happens once every 0:04:18.080 --> 0:04:20.880 few months, not seven times in a night. Sure, I 0:04:20.920 --> 0:04:22.680 think the fact that it took place at a Pavement 0:04:22.720 --> 0:04:26.720 show kind of skewed the um in population. Yeah, they 0:04:26.720 --> 0:04:28.520 were probably on the lookout at any payment show I 0:04:28.600 --> 0:04:33.440 might be there. Yeah, So back to the content, Yeah, 0:04:33.560 --> 0:04:36.240 back to back to bachelor parties. What do they call 0:04:36.320 --> 0:04:38.839 him in France? Oh, in France, they have a great 0:04:38.880 --> 0:04:41.320 name for him, the entire Monte de vie de Gasson, 0:04:41.880 --> 0:04:45.640 which means the burial of the life as a boy heavy, 0:04:45.880 --> 0:04:48.600 Which makes a lot of sense because bachelor parties in 0:04:48.640 --> 0:04:52.919 particular started at a time like the late nineteenth century, 0:04:53.480 --> 0:04:57.080 uh is when they really started to become what we 0:04:57.520 --> 0:05:02.080 understand of them today. Um, at a time when, like 0:05:02.800 --> 0:05:07.280 you probably were, there's a higher than likely chance that 0:05:07.360 --> 0:05:10.600 you were going into marriage is a virgin, and so 0:05:10.720 --> 0:05:13.760 this was exposing you for one last time. You're one 0:05:13.800 --> 0:05:18.880 last opportunity to you know, um, how do I put 0:05:18.880 --> 0:05:22.919 this man? If? So, I guess, but without actually doing 0:05:22.920 --> 0:05:26.040 that more just like you know, seeing a naked woman 0:05:26.040 --> 0:05:27.960 doing a strip tease or something like that, like this 0:05:28.040 --> 0:05:30.320 was your chance to do that before you got married 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:33.400 kind of thing. And so back then it actually made 0:05:33.480 --> 0:05:37.200 sense in a certain way, whereas today, because people are 0:05:37.240 --> 0:05:40.400 getting married later and later, the bachelor party makes less 0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:45.080 and less sense. But the same behavior from days of 0:05:45.160 --> 0:05:50.719 your is expected. So there's this weird tense juxtaposition between 0:05:51.240 --> 0:05:55.200 bachelor parties now and how people actually whether or not 0:05:55.240 --> 0:05:58.360 they enjoy bachelor parties today, you know what I mean? Yeah, 0:05:58.440 --> 0:06:00.360 And I mean I think we should just go ahead 0:06:00.400 --> 0:06:02.480 and say I can speak for you. Neither one of 0:06:02.560 --> 0:06:07.679 us are big on the traditional bachelor party. Uh, we're trying. 0:06:07.720 --> 0:06:10.520 We're going to try not to yuck the yums and 0:06:10.600 --> 0:06:13.640 get to judge. I went camping for my quote unquote 0:06:13.640 --> 0:06:19.240 bachelor party. Uh that's uh. Never been into strip clubs 0:06:19.320 --> 0:06:22.640 at all, Uh, much less for a bachelor party. Which 0:06:22.680 --> 0:06:27.640 is it? Just it makes me uncomfortable just thinking about it. Well, supposedly, 0:06:27.720 --> 0:06:34.160 Chuck like there's there was at least one ethnographic study. UM. Oh, 0:06:34.200 --> 0:06:37.039 I can't find it right now. We'll come across it 0:06:37.120 --> 0:06:41.040 later on. From two thousand sixteen. This uh, this ethnographic 0:06:41.080 --> 0:06:46.200 study basically followed UM bachelor parties to Bitha and like 0:06:46.240 --> 0:06:50.920 other places around Europe, and they interviewed UM like the 0:06:51.000 --> 0:06:53.880 people who were there just kind of candidly, and most 0:06:53.960 --> 0:06:56.600 of them were like, no, I really don't enjoy this 0:06:56.800 --> 0:06:59.080 at all. I'm not having that much fun. Like the 0:06:59.080 --> 0:07:01.359 time when we're hanging out back at the rented house 0:07:01.440 --> 0:07:05.159 drinking together, that's fun, but like being put on stage 0:07:05.160 --> 0:07:08.640 and you know, whipped by a stripper is not that fun. 0:07:08.720 --> 0:07:11.800 It's kind of humiliating, and no, it's not really enjoyable, 0:07:11.800 --> 0:07:13.600 but I feel like I have to go through it. 0:07:13.720 --> 0:07:16.680 So that's the tension that I was talking about, where 0:07:16.720 --> 0:07:21.240 it's like that kind of body raucous, you know, objectifying 0:07:21.480 --> 0:07:25.120 behavior that again kind of like maybe made sense in 0:07:25.120 --> 0:07:28.480 the fifties in a different time, it doesn't make sense today, 0:07:28.520 --> 0:07:30.679 but people still do it, and so it makes people 0:07:31.240 --> 0:07:35.960 deeply uncomfortable. Um as far as most I can't say 0:07:36.000 --> 0:07:38.080 most days, as far as plenty of studies who have 0:07:38.160 --> 0:07:40.600 actually looked at this thing and a lot of anecdotal 0:07:40.720 --> 0:07:45.120 evidence to say, yeah, I'm a full belief that the 0:07:45.160 --> 0:07:49.800 traditional hedonistic bachelor party thing is being driven still by 0:07:49.880 --> 0:07:56.280 like a small minority of guys that are like, go 0:07:56.400 --> 0:07:58.880 to do it, dude, that kind of guy. They are 0:07:58.960 --> 0:08:02.720 called you're desperate already married friend. Those are the ones 0:08:02.760 --> 0:08:05.760 that are trouble at a bachelor party. You have to 0:08:05.800 --> 0:08:08.160 look out for. Those are the ones that push everybody 0:08:08.200 --> 0:08:10.960 else to do dumb stuff that they wouldn't totally do 0:08:11.400 --> 0:08:14.800 and that they'll later regret. As a matter of fact, 0:08:14.840 --> 0:08:16.760 if you want to have a chill bachelor party. Do 0:08:16.840 --> 0:08:20.960 not invite me desperate already married friends. No, not at all, 0:08:21.400 --> 0:08:23.440 or hopefully if you're you know, get married a little 0:08:23.520 --> 0:08:26.400 later in life, then then everyone is sort of a 0:08:26.400 --> 0:08:29.560 little more on board with something chill. And that seems 0:08:29.600 --> 0:08:33.400 to have um caused bachelor parties to evolve into you 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:35.360 know what they're becoming more and more today, which are 0:08:36.080 --> 0:08:40.280 basically like men's retreats to barbecue and like hike and 0:08:40.320 --> 0:08:43.040 stuff like that. And there are definitely plenty that go 0:08:43.160 --> 0:08:46.079 to Vegas or you know, go out of the country 0:08:46.160 --> 0:08:49.719 or something like that and just party hard, but there's 0:08:49.760 --> 0:08:52.959 a growing number of of ones that just do like 0:08:53.000 --> 0:08:55.240 you said, like go camping, you know, just hang out 0:08:55.280 --> 0:08:57.840 with your pals, which is ultimately what the points supposed 0:08:57.880 --> 0:08:59.520 to be. The point of a bachelor party, isn't it 0:08:59.760 --> 0:09:03.319 you umiliate the groom to be But that is a 0:09:03.640 --> 0:09:08.160 huge kind of through thread, uh in a lot of them. 0:09:08.440 --> 0:09:11.559 The point is to just like celebrate your time as 0:09:11.600 --> 0:09:13.960 an individual. I saw I put so perfectly. It was 0:09:14.000 --> 0:09:16.880 on a gay marriage website and they were talking about 0:09:16.880 --> 0:09:19.920 whether you should throw a bachelor party for both grooms 0:09:20.400 --> 0:09:23.680 or a combined one. And this website was saying one 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:26.680 for each because what they're doing is going into a 0:09:26.720 --> 0:09:29.319 marriage and they're combining themselves. This is one of those 0:09:29.360 --> 0:09:33.800 times when they can be celebrated as individuals separately, distinctly, 0:09:34.320 --> 0:09:37.120 And that's ultimately what a bachelor party is supposed to 0:09:37.160 --> 0:09:41.520 be about. It's celebrating this individual before they basically become 0:09:41.520 --> 0:09:44.600 responsible and enter into a union with another person and 0:09:44.640 --> 0:09:48.559 become a couple. That's that's ideally what the bachelor party 0:09:48.600 --> 0:09:51.440 sentiment is supposed to be. That's right. Uh. And the 0:09:51.480 --> 0:09:54.560 only time I will get super judge is if you 0:09:54.640 --> 0:09:58.040 are one of those dudes that thinks it is okay 0:09:58.200 --> 0:10:03.199 or you should like have sex with one last girl 0:10:04.600 --> 0:10:08.120 before you get married. Make the worst decision you've ever made. 0:10:08.240 --> 0:10:11.040 You are cheating on them, and you will cheat on 0:10:11.080 --> 0:10:14.160 them again one day probably, and that is not right 0:10:14.240 --> 0:10:17.600 in any way, shape or form. So again this is 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:23.160 anecdotal self reporting. But on George ta Kay's website, I 0:10:23.200 --> 0:10:26.120 don't know what he was doing. He hosted like a 0:10:27.040 --> 0:10:30.280 that was Jeffrey Tambor and George t Ka cross together? 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:37.400 Yeah or Hank? What was hankstand? Hank? Yeah? Um? So 0:10:37.480 --> 0:10:40.120 On George t Kay's website, he had this this like 0:10:40.400 --> 0:10:43.160 list of like people who wrote in and said, like, yeah, 0:10:43.360 --> 0:10:45.439 I was at this bachelor party and the wedding ended 0:10:45.640 --> 0:10:48.760 because the groom cheated on his fiance, like at the 0:10:48.760 --> 0:10:51.760 bachelor party the night before the wedding, and the you know, 0:10:51.840 --> 0:10:55.400 the fiance found out because her brothers there. That was 0:10:55.480 --> 0:10:59.240 part of the bachelor party. Um. And so apparently there 0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:02.800 have been again I didn't see like, you know, anything 0:11:02.840 --> 0:11:06.080 out of like Rutgers or m I T that was 0:11:06.120 --> 0:11:09.520 a study on this, but anecdotally, there have been marriages 0:11:09.559 --> 0:11:13.440 that have ended before they started because just terrible decisions 0:11:13.480 --> 0:11:16.199 were made at the bachelor party. That's right, And uh, 0:11:16.440 --> 0:11:19.599 ladies were not forgetting about you. The bachelorette party is 0:11:19.640 --> 0:11:22.319 a big thing. They also called them hind parties. Uh 0:11:22.360 --> 0:11:24.599 they called them early on, I think hind parties, but 0:11:24.679 --> 0:11:28.520 they came about much later, generally between the seventies and 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:31.320 the nineties is when that kind of started. And we'll 0:11:31.320 --> 0:11:35.000 touch on both as we go along. But first, and Livia, 0:11:36.240 --> 0:11:38.840 God bless her. I feel bad for even putting her 0:11:38.880 --> 0:11:41.319 through this, but she helped us put this one together 0:11:41.760 --> 0:11:44.120 and did a really good job. And that she looked 0:11:44.120 --> 0:11:47.080 at a lot of other sort of pre wedding traditions, 0:11:47.760 --> 0:11:50.319 and you know, the bachelor and batchelrette parties are one thing, 0:11:50.360 --> 0:11:53.520 but there's a long, long history across every culture you 0:11:53.520 --> 0:11:55.880 can think of kind of since marriage was even a thing, 0:11:56.400 --> 0:11:59.760 that there is some sort of pre day before or week. 0:11:59.800 --> 0:12:05.200 But for rituals that different cultures partake in, yep, ritual bath, 0:12:05.280 --> 0:12:10.560 the mikvah and Jewish tradition, ancient Greece, women used to 0:12:10.640 --> 0:12:14.400 hang out and sacrifice things to the gods before the 0:12:14.480 --> 0:12:17.160 day before. There was one in Sweden I thought was 0:12:17.160 --> 0:12:22.240 pretty interesting. In seventeenth century Sweden. They celebrated the muck Verlaar, 0:12:23.679 --> 0:12:26.680 which is virgin nights, so they would bathe and feast 0:12:26.720 --> 0:12:29.400 and drink with their friends. And there was actually one 0:12:29.440 --> 0:12:33.960 town in sixty nine of Uppsala that said no more, 0:12:34.360 --> 0:12:37.440 like you're showing up so hungover on the wedding day, 0:12:37.520 --> 0:12:41.000 Like we can't do the muk vlaar here anymore. It's banned. 0:12:41.520 --> 0:12:45.040 That's another thing too, like there are a few bad 0:12:45.080 --> 0:12:47.880 ideas that have to do with marriage that are are 0:12:47.960 --> 0:12:51.880 worse than having a bachelor and or bachelor at party 0:12:52.040 --> 0:12:54.400 the night before the wedding. Not the time to it. 0:12:54.520 --> 0:12:56.840 That's when you have your rehearsal dinners and stuff. Usually, right, 0:12:56.880 --> 0:12:58.920 it's supposed to be like kind of chill and exciting, 0:12:59.160 --> 0:13:02.640 not not partying like that the day the night before 0:13:02.679 --> 0:13:05.240 the wedding. Like you have to be so bad at 0:13:05.320 --> 0:13:08.960 thinking things through to actually do that that it's just 0:13:09.080 --> 0:13:12.439 kind of mind boggling but also hilarious in a way. Uh, 0:13:12.480 --> 0:13:15.000 there's one in the northeastern Scotland, I think in rural 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:17.760 Scotland that I think still happens. I'd love to hear 0:13:17.920 --> 0:13:22.200 from our friends there. But they will drive it's called 0:13:22.200 --> 0:13:25.040 the Blackening. They will get the bride and groom and 0:13:25.160 --> 0:13:28.040 kind of fake kidnaped them. And you'll see that happens 0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:29.920 a lot in a lot of these traditions. It's like 0:13:29.920 --> 0:13:32.920 what we've got you now, and they will cover them 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:39.120 with disgusting sticky things, dog food, rotten eggs, does anything 0:13:39.120 --> 0:13:41.200 that'll kind of stick to your body and humiliate you, 0:13:41.760 --> 0:13:43.640 and they will drive you around in the back of 0:13:43.640 --> 0:13:47.720 a truck basically around town. And they basically said there 0:13:47.760 --> 0:13:52.520 are not many rules except that you're uncomfortable and embarrassed. Basically. 0:13:53.640 --> 0:13:55.920 One thing I saw was that, um, this is like 0:13:55.960 --> 0:13:59.880 a farming community, so that like manure doesn't actually work 0:14:00.440 --> 0:14:02.520 because everybody's so used to the smell of manure that 0:14:02.520 --> 0:14:04.880 if you smear it on somebody like whatever, it's not 0:14:05.960 --> 0:14:09.240 they're not close to the coast, so they'll actually drive 0:14:09.440 --> 0:14:11.840 to the coastal areas to get like fish guts and 0:14:11.920 --> 0:14:16.040 stuff because those people do find the particularly disgusting and 0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:19.480 offensive smelling. Wow. Yeah, it's kind of mean, but it 0:14:19.560 --> 0:14:23.160 actually evolved out of a tradition of washing the bride's 0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:27.320 feet and it ended up becoming bad in this little 0:14:27.360 --> 0:14:29.240 part of Skyland. But yeah, it still goes on from 0:14:29.280 --> 0:14:33.040 what I saw. So if you look at the US, uh, 0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:35.800 in the United States, we're talking about, like you said, 0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:39.680 the nineteenth century when these things kind of became a thing. Uh. 0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:45.000 There's a sociologist named Thomas Turnell read that did an 0:14:45.080 --> 0:14:48.000 article with Life Science and basically said, you know, when 0:14:48.000 --> 0:14:51.000 we became industrialized and we moved into the cities and 0:14:51.040 --> 0:14:54.400 started working in factories, new rituals came about. Now that 0:14:54.440 --> 0:14:57.200 you weren't in doing sort of the farming community rituals 0:14:57.840 --> 0:15:01.200 where if you had kind of any sort of promotion 0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:04.840 or anything to mark a rite of passage, people would 0:15:05.040 --> 0:15:08.560 maybe an apprenticeship would end or something. You would take 0:15:08.600 --> 0:15:11.120 people out and you would like to drink beer with them, 0:15:11.160 --> 0:15:15.040 maybe played practical jokes on them, maybe tarn feather there 0:15:16.080 --> 0:15:20.080 their jumpsuit for work or something like that. And this 0:15:20.160 --> 0:15:22.800 is what this sociologist thinks sort of led to this 0:15:23.320 --> 0:15:26.600 tradition of bachelor and bachelorette parties of getting the other 0:15:26.680 --> 0:15:29.480 drinking a lot. Maybe some practical jokes will get to 0:15:29.480 --> 0:15:32.360 those later, but those are still a thing apparently. Yeah, 0:15:32.480 --> 0:15:34.480 which makes sense. I think it's a pretty good argument 0:15:34.480 --> 0:15:38.680 because you have these these you know, new living situations, 0:15:38.680 --> 0:15:41.880 but still some of those old surviving traditions, so you 0:15:41.920 --> 0:15:44.080 have to come up with, you know, new customs around 0:15:44.120 --> 0:15:47.600 those traditions because the old living situation isn't around anymore. 0:15:47.720 --> 0:15:50.240 I totally buy that. I buy it too. Uh. And 0:15:50.280 --> 0:15:53.760 Livia also found this really cool story that sort of 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:59.360 exposed a lot of um how the how the richies 0:15:59.440 --> 0:16:02.720 lived in Gilded Age in New York. It was exposed 0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:06.320 with something called the Awful Seely Dinner. And this was 0:16:06.400 --> 0:16:10.760 the Seely family in New York and this was these 0:16:10.760 --> 0:16:14.840 were relatives, I think, ancestors of P. T. Barnum, right, 0:16:15.320 --> 0:16:18.600 the descendants of P. T. Barnum. Yeah, the grandson. What's 0:16:18.640 --> 0:16:22.400 the difference. I always forget P. T. Barnum who came 0:16:22.400 --> 0:16:27.840 before was their ancestor descendants, right, So Um isn't one 0:16:27.840 --> 0:16:30.360 of your favorite movies, The Descendants it is, But I 0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:36.120 also called the ancestor sometimes so Herbert Barnum seely uh 0:16:36.400 --> 0:16:39.480 through this party for his brother Clinton. Um. Just I 0:16:39.480 --> 0:16:42.680 guess eleven days before he was to be married, and 0:16:42.720 --> 0:16:45.600 I guess did get married. And it was at a 0:16:45.640 --> 0:16:49.800 restaurant called Sherry's. At a time before there was like 0:16:50.240 --> 0:16:54.680 dining out was a thing, So this was really really expensive. Actually, 0:16:54.720 --> 0:16:56.440 you know what, dining out was a thing. I looked 0:16:56.480 --> 0:16:59.120 into this party a little bit more. But uh, if 0:16:59.160 --> 0:17:02.160 you were really a leat, as you'll see, you like 0:17:02.720 --> 0:17:04.760 a lot of privacy and you like to do some 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:08.160 like nasty things sometimes. So there was this big private 0:17:08.200 --> 0:17:10.159 dining scene in New York at the time that was 0:17:10.440 --> 0:17:15.840 a really really big deal. Okay, potato potato, But so 0:17:15.880 --> 0:17:18.359 they were doing this private dining thing. Yeah, that actually 0:17:18.440 --> 0:17:21.920 makes a lot of sense because they they had very 0:17:22.000 --> 0:17:26.320 tight lipped wait staff help performers. When they were interviewed 0:17:26.320 --> 0:17:28.119 with the cops, all these people were like, it is 0:17:28.520 --> 0:17:32.240 not within our our social strata to inform on the 0:17:32.280 --> 0:17:35.480 people who hired. We just can't. And from what I understand, 0:17:35.480 --> 0:17:37.480 the cops were like, yeah, we we totally get it. 0:17:37.520 --> 0:17:39.879 We don't have a case, but we totally get it. 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:43.639 And it wasn't until Herbert Barnum Seeley told the cops 0:17:43.680 --> 0:17:46.080 who some of the attendees were. The cops went and 0:17:46.119 --> 0:17:50.040 interviewed these incredibly rich people and stuff started to come out, 0:17:50.080 --> 0:17:52.040 and it was like, no, they actually did have a 0:17:52.080 --> 0:17:54.879 woman who did like this, who jumped naked out of 0:17:54.920 --> 0:17:57.680 a I guess a cream pie or something like that 0:17:57.720 --> 0:17:59.960 and danced on the table. Her name was Little Egit. 0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:02.720 She was kind of a famous dancer at the time. 0:18:03.320 --> 0:18:06.040 But this is a time where like, as far as 0:18:06.119 --> 0:18:09.800 society was concerned, you did not do this. This is 0:18:09.840 --> 0:18:13.120 like finding out that, you know, the wealthy have eyes 0:18:13.119 --> 0:18:15.719 wide shut parties. I think was was what it what 0:18:15.800 --> 0:18:18.479 it was like, but you know, times a million, because 0:18:18.520 --> 0:18:22.560 the the Victorian era was so genteel. Yeah, but here's 0:18:22.560 --> 0:18:25.920 the thing, they totally did this, which is why they 0:18:26.080 --> 0:18:29.560 had all those private dining events because they like to 0:18:29.600 --> 0:18:31.919 do stuff like this. So they were tipped off, but 0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:34.720 I think an agent of one of the dancers. The 0:18:34.800 --> 0:18:36.720 cops were tipped off that there was, you know, lurid 0:18:36.760 --> 0:18:40.840 things happening. So the cops show up and accidentally walk 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:44.919 in on um a bunch of dancers changing, like you know, 0:18:45.000 --> 0:18:49.159 changing their outfits, and were embarrassed away basically away from 0:18:49.200 --> 0:18:52.639 the premises, said we you know, didn't see anything, and 0:18:52.680 --> 0:18:55.240 then the seelis it probably would have just kept quiet 0:18:55.240 --> 0:18:57.800 if it hadn't been for the Seelie's taking it back 0:18:57.880 --> 0:19:00.360 to the city and saying, you know what, what you wanna, 0:19:00.840 --> 0:19:03.680 we want these cops investigated, and so all of a sudden, 0:19:03.680 --> 0:19:05.919 they're dirty laundry is being dragged out. And it was 0:19:06.560 --> 0:19:10.359 quite the scandal of the New York court system because, 0:19:11.520 --> 0:19:14.920 like you said, these people didn't this quote unquote low society, 0:19:14.960 --> 0:19:18.080 didn't mix with the high society. And all of these 0:19:18.080 --> 0:19:21.440 people were brought through to testify in court, and apparently 0:19:21.480 --> 0:19:24.440 the people in court watching was everything from the high 0:19:24.440 --> 0:19:28.400 society person looking to get dirt or laugh at their 0:19:28.520 --> 0:19:33.040 you know, uh, their comrades or whatever, to the to 0:19:33.240 --> 0:19:35.440 the the guy on the street who was just looking 0:19:35.440 --> 0:19:38.160 for warmth in the courtroom. And so they were all 0:19:38.280 --> 0:19:40.120 kinds of people mixing in New York when you really 0:19:40.240 --> 0:19:43.639 never saw this happening. And you know, the the dancers, 0:19:43.760 --> 0:19:46.440 they had all their outfits rigged to either be snipped 0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:49.840 off with scissors or for their stockings to drop, and 0:19:49.880 --> 0:19:53.040 it was just for the time. Very lord stuff, big 0:19:53.080 --> 0:19:59.880 time embarrassment. There's a lot of fun um contemporary contemporaneous articles. 0:20:00.359 --> 0:20:01.960 There's one from the New Yorker that's really fun to 0:20:02.000 --> 0:20:05.439 read about the Awful Seely Party. Uh. And just a 0:20:05.440 --> 0:20:08.440 little quick side note about little egypt Um. She was 0:20:08.520 --> 0:20:11.639 quite the business lady. Apparently she was a real estate 0:20:11.720 --> 0:20:15.920 investor and died of very sadly died a couple of 0:20:15.960 --> 0:20:19.960 years later gas asphxiation and apartment, but died with in 0:20:20.000 --> 0:20:23.919 today's dollars, about a million bucks in the bank. Yeah, 0:20:24.080 --> 0:20:26.840 so she had it going on. Yeah. And apparently she 0:20:26.920 --> 0:20:29.439 was secretly married and her husband wouldn't claim her in public, 0:20:29.480 --> 0:20:32.119 but when she died he came forward immediately. It was like, 0:20:32.160 --> 0:20:37.320 that was my wife, that's my money. So um. The 0:20:37.440 --> 0:20:40.159 upshot of the Awful Seely Dinners, it was called it 0:20:40.240 --> 0:20:43.680 gave bachelor parties or bachelor dinners is what they were. 0:20:43.720 --> 0:20:45.640 Called at the time kind of a bad name because 0:20:45.640 --> 0:20:48.600 everybody had assumed that, yeah, there's some drinking and you know, 0:20:48.720 --> 0:20:51.880 they smoked maybe an extra cigar or something like that. 0:20:51.960 --> 0:20:56.120 This really exposed them, uh and and just just gave 0:20:56.200 --> 0:20:59.320 him bad reputation, it turns out, for like twenty five 0:20:59.440 --> 0:21:04.360 years tops, because no less than Emily Post in her 0:21:05.359 --> 0:21:08.840 book Etiquette in Society and Business, in Politics and at Home, 0:21:09.560 --> 0:21:13.159 wrote that the bachelor dinner is popularly supposed to have 0:21:13.240 --> 0:21:16.399 been a frightful orgy, but in reality it was a 0:21:16.480 --> 0:21:20.159 sheep in wolf's clothing. So her point was less than 0:21:20.200 --> 0:21:22.760 a quarter century after this awful Sealy dinner when it 0:21:22.800 --> 0:21:25.800 comes out that the rich at their bachelor parties higher 0:21:25.960 --> 0:21:28.840 like couples to perform sex shows in the middle of dinner. 0:21:29.359 --> 0:21:32.399 Um By by this time, Emily posted saying, no, that 0:21:32.480 --> 0:21:36.760 was all just hysterical. They're actually very staid events. Yeah, 0:21:36.800 --> 0:21:39.200 and she really I don't know if she didn't know 0:21:39.240 --> 0:21:42.200 what she's talking about, That's what I think. Probably, So 0:21:42.520 --> 0:21:44.199 I was just didn't know if she was trying to 0:21:44.240 --> 0:21:47.560 just make things seem a little more upstanding than they were. 0:21:47.600 --> 0:21:49.200 But yeah, she probably just didn't even know what was 0:21:49.240 --> 0:21:53.560 really going on, because Uh, I think it was that 0:21:53.920 --> 0:21:56.960 very same time period. There was a counterclaim, which I 0:21:57.040 --> 0:21:59.919 just called the reality of it all. Uh. There was 0:22:00.440 --> 0:22:04.200 an oral history gathered by the w p A, which 0:22:04.240 --> 0:22:09.240 is a Rhode Island French Canadian of a Rhode Island 0:22:09.280 --> 0:22:13.680 French Canadian tech stile worker named Henry Boucher, who described 0:22:13.680 --> 0:22:17.040 in first person his own stag party, and it was 0:22:17.240 --> 0:22:20.040 a raucous affair. Basically, they had a priest there that 0:22:20.119 --> 0:22:22.240 gave a speech about the duties of a married man 0:22:22.720 --> 0:22:25.520 and gave a toast. But then they basically said he 0:22:25.640 --> 0:22:28.280 had a good you know, the good sense to get 0:22:28.280 --> 0:22:31.000 out of there really quickly. Uh. And we were really 0:22:31.440 --> 0:22:34.879 relieved because you know, income the the strip tease acts 0:22:34.880 --> 0:22:37.440 and stuff like that, and we didn't want the priest here. 0:22:37.520 --> 0:22:41.240 So Emily Post had it all wrong. That's that's my 0:22:41.359 --> 0:22:43.880 take that she was just like, this isn't possible. My 0:22:43.880 --> 0:22:46.960 my brain won't comprehend what's actually going on at these 0:22:46.960 --> 0:22:51.080 bachelor dinners. So um, at the very least by the 0:22:51.200 --> 0:22:54.880