WEBVTT - Is Grey Divorce on The Rise Because of Bad Communication? 0:00:17.320 --> 0:00:20.240 Hey, I do part two. It's your host Jana Kramer. Today, 0:00:20.280 --> 0:00:22.360 I've got a father daughter duo who have a lot 0:00:22.360 --> 0:00:25.720 of experience in the world of relationships, from marriage conferences 0:00:25.760 --> 0:00:29.560 to counseling. My guest joy Eggerich and her father, doctor 0:00:29.680 --> 0:00:32.920 Emerson Egerich, have also co authored a children's book together, 0:00:33.240 --> 0:00:36.400 which I can't wait to talk about. So let's dive in. Well, 0:00:36.440 --> 0:00:40.080 I am so excited to have I love a good 0:00:40.240 --> 0:00:43.760 father daughter duo. This is so cute. I always I'm 0:00:43.760 --> 0:00:48.680 interested to in y'allsen dynamic because we'll just say, doctor dad, 0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:51.560 how long have you How long have you been a 0:00:51.600 --> 0:00:52.839 counselor for Well. 0:00:52.640 --> 0:00:56.840 We've been doing marriage focused issues since nineteen ninety nine. Yeah, 0:00:56.920 --> 0:01:00.160 my wife nine. Yeah, we've been married over fifty three years, 0:01:00.200 --> 0:01:03.200 and we do a conference called Love and Respect, and 0:01:03.240 --> 0:01:05.039 so that's been our focus. 0:01:05.360 --> 0:01:09.040 Yes, have you read the book? You read the book? 0:01:09.240 --> 0:01:09.399 Oh? 0:01:09.480 --> 0:01:11.720 Did I write the book? Yes. I sometimes joke that 0:01:11.760 --> 0:01:13.679 I have to have my wife read the book eventually, 0:01:13.680 --> 0:01:15.560 but I wrote Love and Respect. 0:01:15.640 --> 0:01:19.600 Yes, yeah, that is that is one of the books 0:01:19.720 --> 0:01:23.280 that has been so incredibly helpful in my marriage that 0:01:23.640 --> 0:01:28.440 our therapists actually yeah, like he's like you guys need 0:01:28.440 --> 0:01:32.080 to read this book because it's so interesting how like 0:01:32.200 --> 0:01:35.520 what women want versus what men and how they receive 0:01:35.560 --> 0:01:37.920 their love, you know, And it's like I don't. I 0:01:38.600 --> 0:01:42.200 just didn't really it didn't lock in for me until 0:01:42.360 --> 0:01:43.480 I read the book. 0:01:43.520 --> 0:01:46.280 So thank you for that, Well, thank you for sharing. 0:01:46.800 --> 0:01:48.920 Yeah, no, I really I really appreciate that. And then 0:01:49.000 --> 0:01:51.200 Joy as the daughter, I'm just curious to you because 0:01:51.240 --> 0:01:53.840 I love the dynamics of and I actually have therapy 0:01:53.880 --> 0:01:58.080 today with my my personal therapist. But you know, I'm 0:01:58.120 --> 0:02:00.000 always like, please tell me that you guys aren't just 0:02:00.160 --> 0:02:04.160 like perfect, and that it's not like you're communicating it 0:02:04.360 --> 0:02:07.040 like just so great, so perfectly all the time, because like, listen, 0:02:07.080 --> 0:02:08.919 we just had a couple's therapy a couple of weeks ago, 0:02:08.960 --> 0:02:11.560 and I'm like, listen, did I say it exactly how 0:02:11.720 --> 0:02:14.520 my toolbox of words, like, you know, what's really coming 0:02:14.560 --> 0:02:17.600 up for me right now is that I'm feeling, you know, scared, 0:02:17.760 --> 0:02:21.240 and I make up that you're blah blah blah. And 0:02:21.280 --> 0:02:24.120 it's like, did I communicate it properly in that time? 0:02:24.320 --> 0:02:24.400 No? 0:02:24.600 --> 0:02:26.400 But I look at my therapist and I'm like, do 0:02:26.440 --> 0:02:28.640 you communicate it all the time perfectly to your wife 0:02:28.720 --> 0:02:31.440 and joy as like the daughter of witnessing this thing. 0:02:31.720 --> 0:02:33.720 Do you sometimes look at the Love and Respect Book 0:02:33.880 --> 0:02:37.040 or whatever else your doctor your dad is doing and 0:02:37.080 --> 0:02:40.600 being like, Dad, let's like go through the chapters here, 0:02:40.720 --> 0:02:41.480 let's skim this. 0:02:41.800 --> 0:02:42.680 That's exactly right. 0:02:42.760 --> 0:02:45.520 Well, yeah, no, it's so funny because my husband, we've 0:02:45.560 --> 0:02:48.560 been married for ten years, okay, and he is just now, 0:02:48.840 --> 0:02:52.200 thank you, just now reading the book. And he felt embarrassed. 0:02:52.240 --> 0:02:54.040 But he when we first were dating, he was like, 0:02:54.080 --> 0:02:55.799 I didn't I didn't want to read the book because 0:02:55.800 --> 0:02:57.240 I didn't want to feel like I was trying to 0:02:57.280 --> 0:03:00.600 like work an angle, you know. And so he literally 0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:02.080 was just reading it last week and he kept putting 0:03:02.080 --> 0:03:02.600 it down and being. 0:03:02.560 --> 0:03:04.280 Like, man, I get it. 0:03:04.360 --> 0:03:06.320 I get why this has sold over two million copies. 0:03:06.360 --> 0:03:08.160 I get it. It's so good. And I can hear 0:03:08.200 --> 0:03:11.040 your dad's voice, and he's even last night. My dad 0:03:11.080 --> 0:03:13.240 has these different phrases that really stick in your brain 0:03:13.280 --> 0:03:15.840 that you might remember, like stepping on each other's air hoses. 0:03:16.440 --> 0:03:19.400 And we had date night last night and some things happened, 0:03:19.400 --> 0:03:21.440 and he was like, not to use a line from 0:03:21.440 --> 0:03:24.280 your dad's book, but you just stepped on my air hose. 0:03:24.320 --> 0:03:25.720 I was like, oh boy, here we go. 0:03:28.080 --> 0:03:31.320 But no, I mean, I think that's none of us 0:03:31.320 --> 0:03:34.160 are perfect, and that is the message that my parents 0:03:34.160 --> 0:03:37.880 have always taught me, to give grace to people and 0:03:37.920 --> 0:03:40.320 to assume goodwill about other people. 0:03:40.400 --> 0:03:41.880 But we need we. 0:03:41.760 --> 0:03:44.680 All need the message, you know, and we all need 0:03:44.720 --> 0:03:47.280 to come back to these communication principles that I've learned 0:03:47.280 --> 0:03:50.360 from my parents that we write about in this kid's book, 0:03:50.400 --> 0:03:53.080 that we did together, just over and over and assume 0:03:53.160 --> 0:03:55.240 goodwill about other people. 0:03:55.480 --> 0:03:58.200 Yeah, for sure. Do you have any thoughts on that 0:03:58.280 --> 0:03:59.680 as well? Well? 0:04:00.280 --> 0:04:02.760 We refer to it as negative encouragement when we do 0:04:02.800 --> 0:04:06.480 our Love and Respect conferences two day event, I share 0:04:06.520 --> 0:04:08.720 the story when Sarah picked up my Love and Respect 0:04:08.800 --> 0:04:11.120 book and chased me around the house saying, what would 0:04:11.160 --> 0:04:13.760 you say to a husband treating his wife the way 0:04:13.800 --> 0:04:17.520 you're treating me right now? And the crowd goes crazy. 0:04:17.920 --> 0:04:20.599 But we do that because it was true, but also 0:04:20.640 --> 0:04:23.320 because I think people have this idea that everybody has 0:04:23.360 --> 0:04:26.080 a perfect relationship out there except for us. So the 0:04:26.160 --> 0:04:28.760 key is how do we rebound? How do we repair 0:04:29.080 --> 0:04:32.320 when we have these heated fellowship moments? As I refer 0:04:32.480 --> 0:04:32.800 to them. 0:04:33.480 --> 0:04:35.560 Well, I know I'm going to be lucky enough to 0:04:35.560 --> 0:04:38.280 have you guys on my podcast wind Down too, so 0:04:38.760 --> 0:04:41.320 I'm going to hold a couple of those questions. But 0:04:41.839 --> 0:04:45.920 when it refers to the part two of things right, 0:04:46.760 --> 0:04:49.960 being in another marriage, what do you think is one 0:04:49.960 --> 0:04:55.640 of your biggest tips and tools for people that are 0:04:56.800 --> 0:05:00.920 are hesitant to start over to go Okay, I didn't 0:05:00.920 --> 0:05:03.080 get let's say love and respect in the past, and 0:05:03.120 --> 0:05:09.000 I'm afraid to step into this chapter or open myself 0:05:09.080 --> 0:05:12.520 up again. You know, what can they do to open 0:05:12.560 --> 0:05:16.800 their hearts up but also to prepare themselves for the 0:05:16.839 --> 0:05:17.719 next relationship. 0:05:18.120 --> 0:05:20.120 No, that's an excellent question, And I mean when we've 0:05:20.160 --> 0:05:23.080 been hurt obviously, when there has been rejection, when there 0:05:23.080 --> 0:05:26.520 has been that kind of pain. My dad attempted to 0:05:26.520 --> 0:05:28.200 strangle my mother to death when I was two and 0:05:28.200 --> 0:05:31.440 a half. I witnessed that, and my mom separated, took 0:05:31.480 --> 0:05:34.159 my sister and me, and left for five years. I 0:05:34.240 --> 0:05:36.680 talk about me being the wounded healer as a result 0:05:36.680 --> 0:05:40.200 of that. And so when you go through trauma like that, 0:05:41.960 --> 0:05:46.920 who isn't going to be very apprehensive about getting into 0:05:46.920 --> 0:05:49.760 a relationship and subjecting yourself to that again, And that's 0:05:49.800 --> 0:05:53.640 a very serious question, and certainly it's one that I 0:05:53.720 --> 0:05:59.719 feel deeply about, because there are bits of skill you need, 0:06:00.200 --> 0:06:02.240 bits of knowledge you need just a little skill, a 0:06:02.240 --> 0:06:04.559 little knowledge. But if you don't kind of have that skill, 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:06.440 you don't have that knowledge, or you've tried that and 0:06:06.560 --> 0:06:09.159 didn't work. I mean, then people get into a point 0:06:09.200 --> 0:06:12.919 where they really get fearful, and they're overcome by that fear. 0:06:13.400 --> 0:06:15.760 But my mission. People have asked me, what is the 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:18.559 key to you know, you think the problems in marriage? 0:06:18.640 --> 0:06:21.760 I think, well, given there's basically two good people with goodwill, 0:06:21.839 --> 0:06:25.240 is joy made reference that we didn't marry Hitler's distant cousin, 0:06:25.440 --> 0:06:28.560 You know that there is basic good will, then I 0:06:28.600 --> 0:06:33.160 believe oftentimes in the initial stages it's honest smiths understanding. Yeah, 0:06:33.240 --> 0:06:36.720 and so that honest misunderstanding is really the culprit. Now, 0:06:36.880 --> 0:06:39.640 there are wicked things that happen, violence that my dad 0:06:39.680 --> 0:06:42.880 implemented on my mother, that's a different scenario. But most 0:06:42.880 --> 0:06:46.680 people in those initial stages, we just are on two 0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:49.200 different planets. I call it a pink and blue perspective. 0:06:49.640 --> 0:06:51.720 And just as you reference, there are different ways of 0:06:51.760 --> 0:06:55.719 interpreting things, and we have good hearts, goodwill, but we 0:06:55.800 --> 0:06:58.960 are just missing each other. And then I can talk 0:06:59.080 --> 0:07:01.640 more about that, and then the result of that is 0:07:01.680 --> 0:07:04.159 that we get upset, we get angried with each other, 0:07:04.480 --> 0:07:06.600 and we keep thinking, you know, this isn't that difficult. 0:07:06.800 --> 0:07:09.080 I'm not asking you to do something that's difficult, So 0:07:09.120 --> 0:07:11.240 it must be that you don't care and I don't matter. 0:07:12.360 --> 0:07:18.280 Which is so hard because it's everyone's own past traumas 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:21.840 being re inflicted. But it's not really them. It's just 0:07:21.920 --> 0:07:24.520 our own stuff too, you know, But yet we place 0:07:24.600 --> 0:07:29.680 it on them. Sometimes will remind myself that my now 0:07:29.800 --> 0:07:32.119 husband doesn't have to pay the debts of my last 0:07:32.200 --> 0:07:34.480 husband and the things that he did to me, you know, 0:07:35.480 --> 0:07:41.280 like I but sometimes I will place him in a 0:07:41.360 --> 0:07:43.960 place where I'm like, he didn't do that, So why 0:07:44.000 --> 0:07:47.120 am I reacting in a way like he did. 0:07:47.120 --> 0:07:48.120 X, Y or Z. No. 0:07:48.200 --> 0:07:50.080 It's very wise, I mean, that's very wise. I mean 0:07:50.080 --> 0:07:52.679 that's exactly the kind of wisdom and prudence a person 0:07:52.720 --> 0:07:54.960 needs to bring in these situations in the moment. It's 0:07:54.960 --> 0:07:58.040 not always easy. But obviously, stepping back and looking at 0:07:58.040 --> 0:08:01.160 this situation, I think you even referenced earlier sometimes we 0:08:01.200 --> 0:08:03.440 need to have a conversation about how we're going to 0:08:03.440 --> 0:08:06.480 have conversations. Yeah, you need to be able to say, Okay, 0:08:06.520 --> 0:08:08.400 in the event that this happens, it's unfair to you, 0:08:08.440 --> 0:08:10.520 It dishonors you. It's not fair for me to project 0:08:10.600 --> 0:08:12.880 on to you something that's not true. But I need 0:08:12.880 --> 0:08:15.680 some grace being given to me during that time, and 0:08:15.720 --> 0:08:18.040 can we kind of talk about that at some point. 0:08:18.280 --> 0:08:21.200 Not to belabor the point, but I don't feel it's 0:08:21.280 --> 0:08:25.080 honorable to you that I would, you know, somehow misrepresent. 0:08:24.520 --> 0:08:30.360 You, right, joy, did you because you lead the conferences 0:08:30.640 --> 0:08:33.600 or the Is that right? I did for teny years. 0:08:33.600 --> 0:08:36.080 I directed their conferences right out of college and then 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:38.000 out of that, you know, I was kind of just 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:40.920 the event planner. But because I worked the book table 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:44.160 and got everybody kind of in line as people were waiting, 0:08:44.240 --> 0:08:47.000 I had tons of conversations with people. And the thing 0:08:47.040 --> 0:08:50.560 that I heard over and over and over is people saying, man, 0:08:50.920 --> 0:08:53.200 I wish we would have had this twenty years ago, 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:55.080 if only I knew then what I know now. So 0:08:55.480 --> 0:08:58.360 for about almost a decade, then I worked with my 0:08:58.480 --> 0:09:00.880 parents and I had like a vision for eighteen to 0:09:00.920 --> 0:09:03.040 thirty five year olds when I was in that demographic. 0:09:03.080 --> 0:09:05.680 I'm now forty four, which, by the way, we both 0:09:05.679 --> 0:09:07.560 grew up in Michigan and we're about the same age. 0:09:07.600 --> 0:09:09.640 So fellow Michigander, Yeah, I love it. 0:09:09.679 --> 0:09:11.439 Do you play Uker? Oh? 0:09:11.520 --> 0:09:14.880 Yeah, yesh in Heisso we used to play it in class? 0:09:15.240 --> 0:09:19.000 Yes, yes, same, Yeah. Oh I love that. So which 0:09:19.000 --> 0:09:21.240 part of sorry, which part of Michigan East Lansing. 0:09:21.400 --> 0:09:23.520 But my dad is in Grand Rapids. Now my family 0:09:23.520 --> 0:09:24.560 all lived to Grand Rapids. 0:09:24.559 --> 0:09:26.440 But yeah, that's why I loved the book too. I 0:09:26.520 --> 0:09:30.040 just like knew the Michiganders coming out of that just 0:09:30.160 --> 0:09:31.720 exuding there you go. I love that. 0:09:31.920 --> 0:09:33.880 But so yeah, I was just trying to serve whether 0:09:33.960 --> 0:09:35.679 it was it was kind of a demographic of people 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:38.520 who were dating, wanting to be married, or newly married, 0:09:38.559 --> 0:09:41.720 because I, you know, told my dad, like, these principles, uh, 0:09:41.880 --> 0:09:44.160 you know apply to everyone, but there's different things that 0:09:44.200 --> 0:09:46.600 our generation is facing that your generation didn't, and so 0:09:46.640 --> 0:09:47.240 I was trying. 0:09:47.080 --> 0:09:47.719 To speak to that. 0:09:48.720 --> 0:09:50.360 So that was that was I worked with them for 0:09:50.400 --> 0:09:52.040 many years and my and my dad and I have 0:09:52.080 --> 0:09:55.120 joked we're always doing some project together another. Now I'm 0:09:55.120 --> 0:09:57.920 his literary agent and we just wrote a book together. 0:09:57.960 --> 0:10:10.400 But yes, I'm so excited to chat about the book. 0:10:10.440 --> 0:10:12.000 I do want to ask one question because a lot 0:10:12.040 --> 0:10:14.800 of our ide listeners are, you know, either on their 0:10:14.840 --> 0:10:19.360 second third marriage, but a little bit older. And there's 0:10:19.960 --> 0:10:23.880 seems to be a rise in the gray divorce. You know, 0:10:23.920 --> 0:10:29.400 people fifty plus getting divorced. And I'm curious, have you 0:10:29.600 --> 0:10:32.200 seen that trend as well or is it something where 0:10:32.200 --> 0:10:37.000 it's do people just they lost communication or why do 0:10:37.080 --> 0:10:42.320 you think at that age it's like people are wanting 0:10:42.360 --> 0:10:44.720 to just be alone or start over. 0:10:45.280 --> 0:10:46.880 No, I mean this is a burden that I have 0:10:47.080 --> 0:10:49.160 because I think of my own mom and dad. I mean, 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:51.439 at the end of the day, dead didn't have evil 0:10:51.559 --> 0:10:54.760 will here security. He had his issues, he had his moments, 0:10:54.840 --> 0:10:58.840 the incidences versus patterns, And so I came out of 0:10:58.840 --> 0:11:00.520 that kind of pain. And I used to watch my 0:11:00.600 --> 0:11:02.680 mom and dad and I didn't have a vocabulary, but 0:11:02.720 --> 0:11:05.400 I just felt like they were missing each other. And 0:11:05.480 --> 0:11:07.680 how is it the two people who really care about 0:11:07.679 --> 0:11:10.200 each other early on end up coming to this point 0:11:10.240 --> 0:11:13.319 where someone said to me the other day in her counseling, 0:11:13.320 --> 0:11:15.640 and she said, women are just telling me I've outgrown 0:11:15.679 --> 0:11:18.560 my husband and so she's leaving because I've outgrown him, 0:11:18.559 --> 0:11:20.920 And I think, well, what does that exactly mean? And 0:11:21.640 --> 0:11:24.720 so there is this I think heartache out there, and 0:11:24.800 --> 0:11:28.440 my mission is to say, well, let's reconsider. I'm so 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:31.640 grateful that my mom and dad reconciled five years later, 0:11:31.720 --> 0:11:34.920 and I'm so blessed by that and they changed. I mean, 0:11:34.960 --> 0:11:37.680 it really did change for the better. And so that's 0:11:37.720 --> 0:11:41.280 part of my life message. I always am hopeful that 0:11:41.640 --> 0:11:43.520 it doesn't have to end in that kind of despair, 0:11:43.559 --> 0:11:45.760 because you're going to end up very long when you're 0:11:45.760 --> 0:11:49.240 eighty nine. There's a component here just from the research 0:11:49.320 --> 0:11:52.280 I have my doctorate in family studies. You don't want 0:11:52.480 --> 0:11:55.680 to do something premature here. You want to think long 0:11:55.800 --> 0:11:58.120 term here, and what does it mean to invest in 0:11:58.200 --> 0:12:00.600 relationship when you may not be getting from that relationship 0:12:00.640 --> 0:12:01.360 which you're hoping. 0:12:02.240 --> 0:12:05.160 Yeah, no, that's a really good point. Whose idea was 0:12:05.160 --> 0:12:06.280 it for the kid's book? 0:12:08.400 --> 0:12:09.120 Or my mom? 0:12:09.760 --> 0:12:10.440 Oh? Really? 0:12:11.840 --> 0:12:14.000 Yeah? We were sitting around a couple of summers ago 0:12:14.160 --> 0:12:18.600 talking about just his next books and projects, and and 0:12:18.679 --> 0:12:20.320 my mom, you know, she just came, she goes, you know, 0:12:20.600 --> 0:12:22.480 I related, you should do a kid's book about these 0:12:22.520 --> 0:12:25.240 communication principles and said it in the Land of Enough, 0:12:25.320 --> 0:12:29.000 which is childhood stories that he told me in you 0:12:29.040 --> 0:12:31.640 know the dark Michigan winters when it was dark at 0:12:31.679 --> 0:12:32.320 five o'clock. 0:12:32.800 --> 0:12:37.320 You mean from September to basically Easter like our last 0:12:37.960 --> 0:12:45.200 Eastern Yeah, uh huh they I know snow not the 0:12:45.240 --> 0:12:49.240 Easter bunny. Okay, So give us like because I'm a 0:12:49.280 --> 0:12:51.319 mom of three so and we love we love a 0:12:51.360 --> 0:12:54.080 good kid's book. I love too when there is a 0:12:54.200 --> 0:12:57.960 lesson after it. Uh, it's actually funny. My husband, my 0:12:58.080 --> 0:13:00.760 son is obsessed. Is too a half and he's obsessed 0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:02.840 with this one book and at the very end he 0:13:02.880 --> 0:13:04.160 I don't know why he loves it so much. But 0:13:04.200 --> 0:13:06.000 every time I'm like, there's no lesson, there's no like 0:13:06.240 --> 0:13:08.880 I want to like have him just like walk away 0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:10.840 with something. And it's just kind of ends. And my 0:13:10.880 --> 0:13:12.520 husband and I both are like, I don't like it. 0:13:12.559 --> 0:13:14.040 Like we got we gotta hide this one on the 0:13:14.040 --> 0:13:17.000 shelf because he keeps asking for it, Like, so what 0:13:17.160 --> 0:13:19.480 is like what is the overall theme? I mean I 0:13:19.520 --> 0:13:21.200 know what it is, but like give our listeners, like 0:13:21.240 --> 0:13:23.679 why should the mamas out there get this book. 0:13:24.040 --> 0:13:26.120 Well, I think one of the reasons that we decided 0:13:26.160 --> 0:13:29.160 to you know, we both care about these communication principles 0:13:29.200 --> 0:13:31.240 that are pulled from a book that he wrote called 0:13:31.280 --> 0:13:35.480 Speak your Mind, which is asking yourself before you speak 0:13:35.600 --> 0:13:38.240 or write an email or whatever, is it true, is 0:13:38.280 --> 0:13:41.120 it kind? Is it necessary? Is it clear? And so 0:13:41.280 --> 0:13:43.880 this is something this is a message that he shared 0:13:43.880 --> 0:13:45.600 with me when I was in my twenties and we 0:13:45.600 --> 0:13:47.760 were just talking recently, Like he probably shared it with 0:13:47.800 --> 0:13:49.280 me when I was in middle school in high school, 0:13:49.280 --> 0:13:52.439 but it didn't absorb. But in my twenties I really 0:13:52.520 --> 0:13:54.400 asked when I was in the joining the workforce, and 0:13:54.559 --> 0:13:57.000 you know, really needed to get a hold of how 0:13:57.040 --> 0:14:00.439 I communicate it because I'm someone who will blurt and 0:14:00.520 --> 0:14:03.200 put my foot in my mouth. So we were so 0:14:03.360 --> 0:14:06.080 really these principles we want to get to parents, you know, 0:14:06.200 --> 0:14:08.600 because we really think that it will actually help them 0:14:08.960 --> 0:14:13.400 romantically and in professionally. But we thought, you know what, 0:14:13.720 --> 0:14:16.520 it probably would change the world if kids started learning 0:14:16.520 --> 0:14:19.240 these principles young. And I am like you, there are 0:14:19.240 --> 0:14:21.400 books that I'm like read to them and I'm like, 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:24.760 this is my numbingly boring or it's like super silly 0:14:24.760 --> 0:14:27.280 and funny, but there's no lesson or it's trying to 0:14:27.280 --> 0:14:29.800 teach a lesson and it's kind of heavy handed. Yeah, 0:14:29.840 --> 0:14:31.880 and so the Land of Enough, which he made up 0:14:31.880 --> 0:14:34.880 when I was little, is just a place where anything 0:14:34.960 --> 0:14:37.600 I could imagine could come true. And there was these 0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:41.120 two characters, Biga and Douga, who are best friends. I 0:14:41.240 --> 0:14:43.600 now know as an adult that like he was trying 0:14:43.640 --> 0:14:45.640 to teach you. It was like the concepts of being 0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:48.040 and doing. So he was like trying to teach me 0:14:48.120 --> 0:14:51.040 all these like philosophical things but through a really really 0:14:51.080 --> 0:14:54.040 fun and funny medium. And so that's what we tried 0:14:54.080 --> 0:14:56.120 to do, is teach the principles of it, asking yourself, 0:14:56.160 --> 0:14:58.240 is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary? 0:14:58.320 --> 0:14:58.800 Is it clear? 0:14:59.280 --> 0:15:01.920 So that kids like me who might blurt learn when 0:15:01.960 --> 0:15:04.320 to think before they speak, or kids like his best 0:15:04.320 --> 0:15:06.840 friend Duga, who need to learn when to speak up 0:15:07.160 --> 0:15:08.600 to have the confidence to do so. 0:15:09.240 --> 0:15:11.440 I love that and I feel like I could really 0:15:11.520 --> 0:15:13.480 use this book too, honestly for my ten and seven 0:15:13.560 --> 0:15:16.320 year old because the words that they're saying back to 0:15:16.360 --> 0:15:19.360 each other, I'm constantly like, Jolie, that is hurtful. That 0:15:19.440 --> 0:15:21.680 hurts your brother or Jace, like that is not nice 0:15:21.680 --> 0:15:23.840 to say to your sister like it and it's and 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:26.240 I don't that's only really the words that I have 0:15:26.360 --> 0:15:28.840 to say from it, and instead I can be like, 0:15:29.000 --> 0:15:32.160 is that kind? Like I mean, you know, at times, 0:15:32.200 --> 0:15:33.680 I'm like, you know, how would you like to feel 0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:35.560 like if you heard that, like that's not that doesn't 0:15:35.560 --> 0:15:37.960 really feel very nice. And then like to Jolie, I'm like, okay, 0:15:37.960 --> 0:15:40.880 what is the truth? Like obviously is do you think 0:15:40.920 --> 0:15:44.320 you're that? You know? And it's it's hard to, especially 0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:47.760 in those moments, have those kind of conversations. So I 0:15:48.000 --> 0:15:51.400 appreciate you helping, yeah, helping the parents figure out how 0:15:51.440 --> 0:15:54.560 to phrase it in a way that it hopefully can 0:15:54.640 --> 0:15:59.240 stop the name calling or the the choice words. 0:16:00.280 --> 0:16:02.120 Well, and two as a parent, I'm also a parent 0:16:02.160 --> 0:16:04.920 of three three years old, six years old, and seven 0:16:05.000 --> 0:16:07.680 years old, and I can sit them on the couch 0:16:07.760 --> 0:16:10.240 and tell them lessons all day long, but as you know, 0:16:10.400 --> 0:16:12.760 like if we're actually because they need to hear it 0:16:12.960 --> 0:16:14.840 over and over and over, but it will sink in 0:16:15.000 --> 0:16:19.040 if it's in a story form and a visual reference point. 0:16:19.160 --> 0:16:22.160 So one of the other things besides those four principles 0:16:22.160 --> 0:16:25.800 that we want to become a household phrase is can 0:16:25.840 --> 0:16:27.840 I get a do over? So the title is Biga 0:16:27.880 --> 0:16:28.400 gets a due. 0:16:28.640 --> 0:16:31.320 I love that because we do make mistakes. I say 0:16:31.320 --> 0:16:33.040 it all the time my kids, Sorry, Mommy lost her 0:16:33.040 --> 0:16:35.760 shit on you, Like I asked you four times to 0:16:35.800 --> 0:16:37.440 put your shoes away and you did not, so by 0:16:37.480 --> 0:16:40.200 the fourth time, I'm yelling and I didn't want to yell. 0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:42.840 I'm sorry. Yeah, totally. 0:16:42.920 --> 0:16:44.360 I mean the amount of times that I have to 0:16:44.520 --> 0:16:46.760 My dad always says, you know, you're supposed to be 0:16:46.840 --> 0:16:49.680 the parent in the room, but we oftentimes act like 0:16:49.720 --> 0:16:52.040 a child. And so that phrase helps me when I 0:16:52.080 --> 0:16:55.680 can apologize and say, Mommy was acting like a kid here, 0:16:55.840 --> 0:16:57.600 you know, and I'm really sorry. Can I get a 0:16:57.680 --> 0:16:58.080 do over? 0:16:58.440 --> 0:17:00.360 So talk to me about the do over? Then is 0:17:00.360 --> 0:17:03.640 it just they get a chance to basically redo it again. 0:17:04.040 --> 0:17:06.240 Well, it's I mean, and Dad, you can jump in. 0:17:06.280 --> 0:17:08.360 I don't mean to be taking over, but I think 0:17:08.560 --> 0:17:13.480 sometimes love sometimes it's really hard for kids to say 0:17:13.560 --> 0:17:15.639 I'm sorry, will you forgive me? And that is you know, 0:17:15.680 --> 0:17:17.399 that's a practice we want to have in our family. 0:17:17.400 --> 0:17:21.200 But we were on a podcast recently where it's a 0:17:21.240 --> 0:17:23.879 mom who speaks to adoptive and foster parents, and so 0:17:23.880 --> 0:17:26.520 sometimes you have your family rules of like we say sorry, 0:17:26.560 --> 0:17:29.320 will you forgive me? And you're bringing in children who 0:17:29.359 --> 0:17:32.120 have different environments that they've grown up or just even 0:17:32.119 --> 0:17:34.360 on the playground, you know, one family might do one thing, 0:17:34.840 --> 0:17:38.320 one might do another, and so do over feels like 0:17:38.400 --> 0:17:41.440 it's a really accessible way to kind of say I'm 0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:45.159 sorry and I messed up how I communicated and so 0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:49.040 it's just and it's for parents too. Like my dad 0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:51.800 and I we got into a little thing this spring 0:17:52.320 --> 0:17:55.000 and he like came to me with like a twinkle 0:17:55.040 --> 0:17:56.520 in his eye and he was like, can we get 0:17:56.560 --> 0:17:58.560 a do over? And we both started laughing because we 0:17:58.600 --> 0:18:00.720 have the reference point of this book, and so we 0:18:00.800 --> 0:18:03.399 just think it'll make it lighter, you know, for you know, 0:18:03.400 --> 0:18:05.680 you can say to your kid, like, hey, why don't 0:18:05.720 --> 0:18:07.280 you why don't you be like Biga and go to 0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:08.760 your brother and I and say can we get a 0:18:08.840 --> 0:18:11.120 do over? It's just a it's an easier lift for them. 0:18:11.320 --> 0:18:14.199 I love that though. That's very that's very sweet. And 0:18:14.200 --> 0:18:16.960 I love the fact too that the father daughter dynamic. 0:18:17.080 --> 0:18:20.200 I think it's you know, I had a difficult father 0:18:20.480 --> 0:18:24.880 daughter dynamic growing up. But I do believe that when 0:18:24.960 --> 0:18:26.800 you grow up and you start to learn more, like Okay, 0:18:26.800 --> 0:18:29.080 how is my dad's dad to my dad? You know, 0:18:29.119 --> 0:18:31.080 and like wow, how why is he the way that 0:18:31.080 --> 0:18:33.520 he is? You kind of stopped start stop, I stopped 0:18:33.520 --> 0:18:37.480 placing blame and just kind of and I'm not saying, oh, 0:18:37.520 --> 0:18:40.200 it's just who he is, Like, but I also I'm 0:18:40.240 --> 0:18:42.159 curious and I want to ask you this too. Is 0:18:43.680 --> 0:18:45.840 I feel like my generation, our generation, like we're in 0:18:45.880 --> 0:18:49.600 our forties, we've done therapy, or at least we've we've 0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:53.560 gone like I've been going for since my twenties, and 0:18:53.640 --> 0:18:56.760 I don't feel like our parents my yeah, yours and 0:18:56.840 --> 0:18:59.280 mind I'm sure your counselor so you have, but like 0:18:59.440 --> 0:19:01.639 maybe I don't know other friends of yours parents, Like 0:19:01.760 --> 0:19:04.800 I don't know anybody else that's ever done therapy or 0:19:05.359 --> 0:19:08.000 gone into therapy. And it's hard sometimes, Like when I'm 0:19:08.040 --> 0:19:11.600 with my dad, he's very like anxiously attached, and like, 0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:13.719