Speaker 1: Hey, I do part two. It's your host Jana Kramer. Today,
Speaker 1: I've got a father daughter duo who have a lot
Speaker 1: of experience in the world of relationships, from marriage conferences
Speaker 1: to counseling. My guest joy Eggerich and her father, doctor
Speaker 1: Emerson Egerich, have also co authored a children's book together,
Speaker 1: which I can't wait to talk about. So let's dive in. Well,
Speaker 1: I am so excited to have I love a good
Speaker 1: father daughter duo. This is so cute. I always I'm
Speaker 1: interested to in y'allsen dynamic because we'll just say, doctor dad,
Speaker 1: how long have you How long have you been a
Speaker 1: counselor for Well.
Speaker 2: We've been doing marriage focused issues since nineteen ninety nine. Yeah,
Speaker 2: my wife nine. Yeah, we've been married over fifty three years,
Speaker 2: and we do a conference called Love and Respect, and
Speaker 2: so that's been our focus.
Speaker 1: Yes, have you read the book? You read the book?
Speaker 3: Oh?
Speaker 2: Did I write the book? Yes. I sometimes joke that
Speaker 2: I have to have my wife read the book eventually,
Speaker 2: but I wrote Love and Respect.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, that is that is one of the books
Speaker 1: that has been so incredibly helpful in my marriage that
Speaker 1: our therapists actually yeah, like he's like you guys need
Speaker 1: to read this book because it's so interesting how like
Speaker 1: what women want versus what men and how they receive
Speaker 1: their love, you know, And it's like I don't. I
Speaker 1: just didn't really it didn't lock in for me until
Speaker 1: I read the book.
Speaker 2: So thank you for that, Well, thank you for sharing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I really I really appreciate that. And then
Speaker 1: Joy as the daughter, I'm just curious to you because
Speaker 1: I love the dynamics of and I actually have therapy
Speaker 1: today with my my personal therapist. But you know, I'm
Speaker 1: always like, please tell me that you guys aren't just
Speaker 1: like perfect, and that it's not like you're communicating it
Speaker 1: like just so great, so perfectly all the time, because like, listen,
Speaker 1: we just had a couple's therapy a couple of weeks ago,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, listen, did I say it exactly how
Speaker 1: my toolbox of words, like, you know, what's really coming
Speaker 1: up for me right now is that I'm feeling, you know, scared,
Speaker 1: and I make up that you're blah blah blah. And
Speaker 1: it's like, did I communicate it properly in that time?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 1: But I look at my therapist and I'm like, do
Speaker 1: you communicate it all the time perfectly to your wife
Speaker 1: and joy as like the daughter of witnessing this thing.
Speaker 1: Do you sometimes look at the Love and Respect Book
Speaker 1: or whatever else your doctor your dad is doing and
Speaker 1: being like, Dad, let's like go through the chapters here,
Speaker 1: let's skim this.
Speaker 2: That's exactly right.
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, no, it's so funny because my husband, we've
Speaker 4: been married for ten years, okay, and he is just now,
Speaker 4: thank you, just now reading the book. And he felt embarrassed.
Speaker 4: But he when we first were dating, he was like,
Speaker 4: I didn't I didn't want to read the book because
Speaker 4: I didn't want to feel like I was trying to
Speaker 4: like work an angle, you know. And so he literally
Speaker 4: was just reading it last week and he kept putting
Speaker 4: it down and being.
Speaker 1: Like, man, I get it.
Speaker 4: I get why this has sold over two million copies.
Speaker 4: I get it. It's so good. And I can hear
Speaker 4: your dad's voice, and he's even last night. My dad
Speaker 4: has these different phrases that really stick in your brain
Speaker 4: that you might remember, like stepping on each other's air hoses.
Speaker 4: And we had date night last night and some things happened,
Speaker 4: and he was like, not to use a line from
Speaker 4: your dad's book, but you just stepped on my air hose.
Speaker 1: I was like, oh boy, here we go.
Speaker 4: But no, I mean, I think that's none of us
Speaker 4: are perfect, and that is the message that my parents
Speaker 4: have always taught me, to give grace to people and
Speaker 4: to assume goodwill about other people.
Speaker 1: But we need we.
Speaker 4: All need the message, you know, and we all need
Speaker 4: to come back to these communication principles that I've learned
Speaker 4: from my parents that we write about in this kid's book,
Speaker 4: that we did together, just over and over and assume
Speaker 4: goodwill about other people.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. Do you have any thoughts on that
Speaker 1: as well? Well?
Speaker 2: We refer to it as negative encouragement when we do
Speaker 2: our Love and Respect conferences two day event, I share
Speaker 2: the story when Sarah picked up my Love and Respect
Speaker 2: book and chased me around the house saying, what would
Speaker 2: you say to a husband treating his wife the way
Speaker 2: you're treating me right now? And the crowd goes crazy.
Speaker 2: But we do that because it was true, but also
Speaker 2: because I think people have this idea that everybody has
Speaker 2: a perfect relationship out there except for us. So the
Speaker 2: key is how do we rebound? How do we repair
Speaker 2: when we have these heated fellowship moments? As I refer
Speaker 2: to them.
Speaker 1: Well, I know I'm going to be lucky enough to
Speaker 1: have you guys on my podcast wind Down too, so
Speaker 1: I'm going to hold a couple of those questions. But
Speaker 1: when it refers to the part two of things right,
Speaker 1: being in another marriage, what do you think is one
Speaker 1: of your biggest tips and tools for people that are
Speaker 1: are hesitant to start over to go Okay, I didn't
Speaker 1: get let's say love and respect in the past, and
Speaker 1: I'm afraid to step into this chapter or open myself
Speaker 1: up again. You know, what can they do to open
Speaker 1: their hearts up but also to prepare themselves for the
Speaker 1: next relationship.
Speaker 2: No, that's an excellent question, And I mean when we've
Speaker 2: been hurt obviously, when there has been rejection, when there
Speaker 2: has been that kind of pain. My dad attempted to
Speaker 2: strangle my mother to death when I was two and
Speaker 2: a half. I witnessed that, and my mom separated, took
Speaker 2: my sister and me, and left for five years. I
Speaker 2: talk about me being the wounded healer as a result
Speaker 2: of that. And so when you go through trauma like that,
Speaker 2: who isn't going to be very apprehensive about getting into
Speaker 2: a relationship and subjecting yourself to that again, And that's
Speaker 2: a very serious question, and certainly it's one that I
Speaker 2: feel deeply about, because there are bits of skill you need,
Speaker 2: bits of knowledge you need just a little skill, a
Speaker 2: little knowledge. But if you don't kind of have that skill,
Speaker 2: you don't have that knowledge, or you've tried that and
Speaker 2: didn't work. I mean, then people get into a point
Speaker 2: where they really get fearful, and they're overcome by that fear.
Speaker 2: But my mission. People have asked me, what is the
Speaker 2: key to you know, you think the problems in marriage?
Speaker 2: I think, well, given there's basically two good people with goodwill,
Speaker 2: is joy made reference that we didn't marry Hitler's distant cousin,
Speaker 2: You know that there is basic good will, then I
Speaker 2: believe oftentimes in the initial stages it's honest smiths understanding. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and so that honest misunderstanding is really the culprit. Now,
Speaker 2: there are wicked things that happen, violence that my dad
Speaker 2: implemented on my mother, that's a different scenario. But most
Speaker 2: people in those initial stages, we just are on two
Speaker 2: different planets. I call it a pink and blue perspective.
Speaker 2: And just as you reference, there are different ways of
Speaker 2: interpreting things, and we have good hearts, goodwill, but we
Speaker 2: are just missing each other. And then I can talk
Speaker 2: more about that, and then the result of that is
Speaker 2: that we get upset, we get angried with each other,
Speaker 2: and we keep thinking, you know, this isn't that difficult.
Speaker 2: I'm not asking you to do something that's difficult, So
Speaker 2: it must be that you don't care and I don't matter.
Speaker 1: Which is so hard because it's everyone's own past traumas
Speaker 1: being re inflicted. But it's not really them. It's just
Speaker 1: our own stuff too, you know, But yet we place
Speaker 1: it on them. Sometimes will remind myself that my now
Speaker 1: husband doesn't have to pay the debts of my last
Speaker 1: husband and the things that he did to me, you know,
Speaker 1: like I but sometimes I will place him in a
Speaker 1: place where I'm like, he didn't do that, So why
Speaker 1: am I reacting in a way like he did.
Speaker 3: X, Y or Z. No.
Speaker 2: It's very wise, I mean, that's very wise. I mean
Speaker 2: that's exactly the kind of wisdom and prudence a person
Speaker 2: needs to bring in these situations in the moment. It's
Speaker 2: not always easy. But obviously, stepping back and looking at
Speaker 2: this situation, I think you even referenced earlier sometimes we
Speaker 2: need to have a conversation about how we're going to
Speaker 2: have conversations. Yeah, you need to be able to say, Okay,
Speaker 2: in the event that this happens, it's unfair to you,
Speaker 2: It dishonors you. It's not fair for me to project
Speaker 2: on to you something that's not true. But I need
Speaker 2: some grace being given to me during that time, and
Speaker 2: can we kind of talk about that at some point.
Speaker 2: Not to belabor the point, but I don't feel it's
Speaker 2: honorable to you that I would, you know, somehow misrepresent.
Speaker 1: You, right, joy, did you because you lead the conferences
Speaker 1: or the Is that right? I did for teny years.
Speaker 4: I directed their conferences right out of college and then
Speaker 4: out of that, you know, I was kind of just
Speaker 4: the event planner. But because I worked the book table
Speaker 4: and got everybody kind of in line as people were waiting,
Speaker 4: I had tons of conversations with people. And the thing
Speaker 4: that I heard over and over and over is people saying, man,
Speaker 4: I wish we would have had this twenty years ago,
Speaker 4: if only I knew then what I know now. So
Speaker 4: for about almost a decade, then I worked with my
Speaker 4: parents and I had like a vision for eighteen to
Speaker 4: thirty five year olds when I was in that demographic.
Speaker 4: I'm now forty four, which, by the way, we both
Speaker 4: grew up in Michigan and we're about the same age.
Speaker 4: So fellow Michigander, Yeah, I love it.
Speaker 1: Do you play Uker? Oh?
Speaker 4: Yeah, yesh in Heisso we used to play it in class?
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, same, Yeah. Oh I love that. So which
Speaker 1: part of sorry, which part of Michigan East Lansing.
Speaker 4: But my dad is in Grand Rapids. Now my family
Speaker 4: all lived to Grand Rapids.
Speaker 1: But yeah, that's why I loved the book too. I
Speaker 1: just like knew the Michiganders coming out of that just
Speaker 1: exuding there you go. I love that.
Speaker 4: But so yeah, I was just trying to serve whether
Speaker 4: it was it was kind of a demographic of people
Speaker 4: who were dating, wanting to be married, or newly married,
Speaker 4: because I, you know, told my dad, like, these principles, uh,
Speaker 4: you know apply to everyone, but there's different things that
Speaker 4: our generation is facing that your generation didn't, and so
Speaker 4: I was trying.
Speaker 1: To speak to that.
Speaker 4: So that was that was I worked with them for
Speaker 4: many years and my and my dad and I have
Speaker 4: joked we're always doing some project together another. Now I'm
Speaker 4: his literary agent and we just wrote a book together.
Speaker 1: But yes, I'm so excited to chat about the book.
Speaker 1: I do want to ask one question because a lot
Speaker 1: of our ide listeners are, you know, either on their
Speaker 1: second third marriage, but a little bit older. And there's
Speaker 1: seems to be a rise in the gray divorce. You know,
Speaker 1: people fifty plus getting divorced. And I'm curious, have you
Speaker 1: seen that trend as well or is it something where
Speaker 1: it's do people just they lost communication or why do
Speaker 1: you think at that age it's like people are wanting
Speaker 1: to just be alone or start over.
Speaker 2: No, I mean this is a burden that I have
Speaker 2: because I think of my own mom and dad. I mean,
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, dead didn't have evil
Speaker 2: will here security. He had his issues, he had his moments,
Speaker 2: the incidences versus patterns, And so I came out of
Speaker 2: that kind of pain. And I used to watch my
Speaker 2: mom and dad and I didn't have a vocabulary, but
Speaker 2: I just felt like they were missing each other. And
Speaker 2: how is it the two people who really care about
Speaker 2: each other early on end up coming to this point
Speaker 2: where someone said to me the other day in her counseling,
Speaker 2: and she said, women are just telling me I've outgrown
Speaker 2: my husband and so she's leaving because I've outgrown him,
Speaker 2: And I think, well, what does that exactly mean? And
Speaker 2: so there is this I think heartache out there, and
Speaker 2: my mission is to say, well, let's reconsider. I'm so
Speaker 2: grateful that my mom and dad reconciled five years later,
Speaker 2: and I'm so blessed by that and they changed. I mean,
Speaker 2: it really did change for the better. And so that's
Speaker 2: part of my life message. I always am hopeful that
Speaker 2: it doesn't have to end in that kind of despair,
Speaker 2: because you're going to end up very long when you're
Speaker 2: eighty nine. There's a component here just from the research
Speaker 2: I have my doctorate in family studies. You don't want
Speaker 2: to do something premature here. You want to think long
Speaker 2: term here, and what does it mean to invest in
Speaker 2: relationship when you may not be getting from that relationship
Speaker 2: which you're hoping.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that's a really good point. Whose idea was
Speaker 1: it for the kid's book?
Speaker 4: Or my mom?
Speaker 3: Oh? Really?
Speaker 4: Yeah? We were sitting around a couple of summers ago
Speaker 4: talking about just his next books and projects, and and
Speaker 4: my mom, you know, she just came, she goes, you know,
Speaker 4: I related, you should do a kid's book about these
Speaker 4: communication principles and said it in the Land of Enough,
Speaker 4: which is childhood stories that he told me in you
Speaker 4: know the dark Michigan winters when it was dark at
Speaker 4: five o'clock.
Speaker 1: You mean from September to basically Easter like our last
Speaker 1: Eastern Yeah, uh huh they I know snow not the
Speaker 1: Easter bunny. Okay, So give us like because I'm a
Speaker 1: mom of three so and we love we love a
Speaker 1: good kid's book. I love too when there is a
Speaker 1: lesson after it. Uh, it's actually funny. My husband, my
Speaker 1: son is obsessed. Is too a half and he's obsessed
Speaker 1: with this one book and at the very end he
Speaker 1: I don't know why he loves it so much. But
Speaker 1: every time I'm like, there's no lesson, there's no like
Speaker 1: I want to like have him just like walk away
Speaker 1: with something. And it's just kind of ends. And my
Speaker 1: husband and I both are like, I don't like it.
Speaker 1: Like we got we gotta hide this one on the
Speaker 1: shelf because he keeps asking for it, Like, so what
Speaker 1: is like what is the overall theme? I mean I
Speaker 1: know what it is, but like give our listeners, like
Speaker 1: why should the mamas out there get this book.
Speaker 4: Well, I think one of the reasons that we decided
Speaker 4: to you know, we both care about these communication principles
Speaker 4: that are pulled from a book that he wrote called
Speaker 4: Speak your Mind, which is asking yourself before you speak
Speaker 4: or write an email or whatever, is it true, is
Speaker 4: it kind? Is it necessary? Is it clear? And so
Speaker 4: this is something this is a message that he shared
Speaker 4: with me when I was in my twenties and we
Speaker 4: were just talking recently, Like he probably shared it with
Speaker 4: me when I was in middle school in high school,
Speaker 4: but it didn't absorb. But in my twenties I really
Speaker 4: asked when I was in the joining the workforce, and
Speaker 4: you know, really needed to get a hold of how
Speaker 4: I communicate it because I'm someone who will blurt and
Speaker 4: put my foot in my mouth. So we were so
Speaker 4: really these principles we want to get to parents, you know,
Speaker 4: because we really think that it will actually help them
Speaker 4: romantically and in professionally. But we thought, you know what,
Speaker 4: it probably would change the world if kids started learning
Speaker 4: these principles young. And I am like you, there are
Speaker 4: books that I'm like read to them and I'm like,
Speaker 4: this is my numbingly boring or it's like super silly
Speaker 4: and funny, but there's no lesson or it's trying to
Speaker 4: teach a lesson and it's kind of heavy handed. Yeah,
Speaker 4: and so the Land of Enough, which he made up
Speaker 4: when I was little, is just a place where anything
Speaker 4: I could imagine could come true. And there was these
Speaker 4: two characters, Biga and Douga, who are best friends. I
Speaker 4: now know as an adult that like he was trying
Speaker 4: to teach you. It was like the concepts of being
Speaker 4: and doing. So he was like trying to teach me
Speaker 4: all these like philosophical things but through a really really
Speaker 4: fun and funny medium. And so that's what we tried
Speaker 4: to do, is teach the principles of it, asking yourself,
Speaker 4: is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?
Speaker 3: Is it clear?
Speaker 4: So that kids like me who might blurt learn when
Speaker 4: to think before they speak, or kids like his best
Speaker 4: friend Duga, who need to learn when to speak up
Speaker 4: to have the confidence to do so.
Speaker 1: I love that and I feel like I could really
Speaker 1: use this book too, honestly for my ten and seven
Speaker 1: year old because the words that they're saying back to
Speaker 1: each other, I'm constantly like, Jolie, that is hurtful. That
Speaker 1: hurts your brother or Jace, like that is not nice
Speaker 1: to say to your sister like it and it's and
Speaker 1: I don't that's only really the words that I have
Speaker 1: to say from it, and instead I can be like,
Speaker 1: is that kind? Like I mean, you know, at times,
Speaker 1: I'm like, you know, how would you like to feel
Speaker 1: like if you heard that, like that's not that doesn't
Speaker 1: really feel very nice. And then like to Jolie, I'm like, okay,
Speaker 1: what is the truth? Like obviously is do you think
Speaker 1: you're that? You know? And it's it's hard to, especially
Speaker 1: in those moments, have those kind of conversations. So I
Speaker 1: appreciate you helping, yeah, helping the parents figure out how
Speaker 1: to phrase it in a way that it hopefully can
Speaker 1: stop the name calling or the the choice words.
Speaker 4: Well, and two as a parent, I'm also a parent
Speaker 4: of three three years old, six years old, and seven
Speaker 4: years old, and I can sit them on the couch
Speaker 4: and tell them lessons all day long, but as you know,
Speaker 4: like if we're actually because they need to hear it
Speaker 4: over and over and over, but it will sink in
Speaker 4: if it's in a story form and a visual reference point.
Speaker 4: So one of the other things besides those four principles
Speaker 4: that we want to become a household phrase is can
Speaker 4: I get a do over? So the title is Biga
Speaker 4: gets a due.
Speaker 1: I love that because we do make mistakes. I say
Speaker 1: it all the time my kids, Sorry, Mommy lost her
Speaker 1: shit on you, Like I asked you four times to
Speaker 1: put your shoes away and you did not, so by
Speaker 1: the fourth time, I'm yelling and I didn't want to yell.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. Yeah, totally.
Speaker 4: I mean the amount of times that I have to
Speaker 4: My dad always says, you know, you're supposed to be
Speaker 4: the parent in the room, but we oftentimes act like
Speaker 4: a child. And so that phrase helps me when I
Speaker 4: can apologize and say, Mommy was acting like a kid here,
Speaker 4: you know, and I'm really sorry. Can I get a
Speaker 4: do over?
Speaker 1: So talk to me about the do over? Then is
Speaker 1: it just they get a chance to basically redo it again.
Speaker 4: Well, it's I mean, and Dad, you can jump in.
Speaker 4: I don't mean to be taking over, but I think
Speaker 4: sometimes love sometimes it's really hard for kids to say
Speaker 4: I'm sorry, will you forgive me? And that is you know,
Speaker 4: that's a practice we want to have in our family.
Speaker 4: But we were on a podcast recently where it's a
Speaker 4: mom who speaks to adoptive and foster parents, and so
Speaker 4: sometimes you have your family rules of like we say sorry,
Speaker 4: will you forgive me? And you're bringing in children who
Speaker 4: have different environments that they've grown up or just even
Speaker 4: on the playground, you know, one family might do one thing,
Speaker 4: one might do another, and so do over feels like
Speaker 4: it's a really accessible way to kind of say I'm
Speaker 4: sorry and I messed up how I communicated and so
Speaker 4: it's just and it's for parents too. Like my dad
Speaker 4: and I we got into a little thing this spring
Speaker 4: and he like came to me with like a twinkle
Speaker 4: in his eye and he was like, can we get
Speaker 4: a do over? And we both started laughing because we
Speaker 4: have the reference point of this book, and so we
Speaker 4: just think it'll make it lighter, you know, for you know,
Speaker 4: you can say to your kid, like, hey, why don't
Speaker 4: you why don't you be like Biga and go to
Speaker 4: your brother and I and say can we get a
Speaker 4: do over? It's just a it's an easier lift for them.
Speaker 1: I love that though. That's very that's very sweet. And
Speaker 1: I love the fact too that the father daughter dynamic.
Speaker 1: I think it's you know, I had a difficult father
Speaker 1: daughter dynamic growing up. But I do believe that when
Speaker 1: you grow up and you start to learn more, like Okay,
Speaker 1: how is my dad's dad to my dad? You know,
Speaker 1: and like wow, how why is he the way that
Speaker 1: he is? You kind of stopped start stop, I stopped
Speaker 1: placing blame and just kind of and I'm not saying, oh,
Speaker 1: it's just who he is, Like, but I also I'm
Speaker 1: curious and I want to ask you this too. Is
Speaker 1: I feel like my generation, our generation, like we're in
Speaker 1: our forties, we've done therapy, or at least we've we've
Speaker 1: gone like I've been going for since my twenties, and
Speaker 1: I don't feel like our parents my yeah, yours and
Speaker 1: mind I'm sure your counselor so you have, but like
Speaker 1: maybe I don't know other friends of yours parents, Like
Speaker 1: I don't know anybody else that's ever done therapy or
Speaker 1: gone into therapy. And it's hard sometimes, Like when I'm
Speaker 1: with my dad, he's very like anxiously attached, and like,
Speaker 1: I see that so much because I was also very
Speaker 1: anxiously attached, Like that was something that I was like,
Speaker 1: I have a huge problem in that area. And then
Speaker 1: when I witness it in him. It honestly drives me nuts,
Speaker 1: you know, and he doesn't understand what it is or
Speaker 1: and I try to explain it to him, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: you just we can have silence, we can have him.
Speaker 1: You don't have to make up for lost time, like
Speaker 1: we're okay, you know. But it's it's interesting because I
Speaker 1: don't know with that generation fifties plus, do they want
Speaker 1: to hear the therapy things, because I almost feel like
Speaker 1: they kind of look at us like, oh, yeah, you've
Speaker 1: done the therapy, you know, you know, the stuffy Do
Speaker 1: they want to taken that information? I guess I don't know.
Speaker 2: No, that's an excellent question. I think that's kind of
Speaker 2: the first time that question has been asked that way.
Speaker 2: You know. I think of my own dad, you know,
Speaker 2: the baby. I mean, you didn't even you didn't.
Speaker 1: Even go there, you didn't even say I love you,
Speaker 1: Like I don't even remember my mom's yeah, saying like
Speaker 1: I love you to my mom.
Speaker 2: Yester day I was twenty nine. I still remember on
Speaker 2: the phone my dad was talking to me and he
Speaker 2: said I love you, And I said to myself, that's
Speaker 2: the first time I've heard him say that to me.
Speaker 1: Same with my mom. When you got divorced. It was
Speaker 1: like those shoes are those first time I ever heard
Speaker 1: I'm like what, I'm like, I say it ten million
Speaker 1: times a day to my kids.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, yes, no, But I think you're you know,
Speaker 2: I don't know your father, but there is an insecurity
Speaker 2: that he has that he's probably felt, like, as you
Speaker 2: just said, he failed you. He's wondering if you, you know,
Speaker 2: hold that against him. I mean, I don't know the
Speaker 2: dynamics there, but I think this challenge for all of
Speaker 2: us is part of the emotional intelligence is self awareness
Speaker 2: and coming to the point of looking at the strengths,
Speaker 2: looking at the vulnerabilities, and being able to continue to
Speaker 2: grow in that. And I think that we have some
Speaker 2: real potential for great wisdom. I applaud that the question
Speaker 2: is how do we deal with our parents? And this
Speaker 2: is where you're seeing younger kids are canceling their mom
Speaker 2: and dads because, you know, they feel hurt by their
Speaker 2: mom and dad. Their poor mom and dad are hurtful,
Speaker 2: they feel offended by mom and dad, Their poor mom
Speaker 2: and dad are offensive. But is that the truth? I mean,
Speaker 2: are your parents really good will people who are trying
Speaker 2: the best. My mother used to always say to me,
Speaker 2: your daddy doesn't know how to be a daddy. His
Speaker 2: daddy died in the nineteen eighteen Flew epidemic when he
Speaker 2: was three months old. Your daddy does not know how
Speaker 2: to be a daddy. She continued to express empathy toward
Speaker 2: the very man who she was separated from for many years.
Speaker 2: And I one day I realized that was a gift
Speaker 2: that she gave to me, that she was empathetic toward this.
Speaker 2: And so I never had hostility toward my father, and
Speaker 2: there was a recognition that he had his limitations and
Speaker 2: that he didn't have a daddy. Did I tell you that?
Speaker 2: And so the same thing with you. And I think
Speaker 2: this is the challenge. Instead of judging people, let's extend
Speaker 2: empathy to them, which is a real sign of your wisdom.
Speaker 2: I mean that needs to be applauded. And I'm burdened
Speaker 2: about the younger generation that is not empathetic toward the
Speaker 2: shortcomings of their moms and dads.
Speaker 4: Now, well, I think you know Jana as someone, yes,
Speaker 4: who has been going to therapy on and off by
Speaker 4: myself or with my husband. And sometimes people are like
Speaker 4: you and your husband, you know, go to marriage counseling,
Speaker 4: even though your dad were all love and respect, and
Speaker 4: I'm like, we call it preventive medicine, and we love
Speaker 4: seeking counsel from my dad, but it's also good to have,
Speaker 4: you know, a neutral third party.
Speaker 2: Well, she also knows that I told her upfront that
Speaker 2: I'm always going to be fifty one percent in favor
Speaker 2: of Matt, her husband always going that direction. She didn't
Speaker 2: want to hear that. He didn't want to.
Speaker 4: Yeah, my brother's spouse is because which I think actually
Speaker 4: is fair, because any person marrying into our family would
Speaker 4: assume or to any family, that the parent is going
Speaker 4: to side with their child. So I love and hate
Speaker 4: that they do that. Anyways, one of my a term
Speaker 4: that I'm sure you know from being in therapy that
Speaker 4: really helped me let go of some people in my life,
Speaker 4: if not from a like I'm never going to have
Speaker 4: a relationship with you, but actually to have freedom in
Speaker 4: that relationship, is the term radical acceptance. Hell yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4: And I just like when my therapist defined that for me.
Speaker 4: For some I just was I really wanted to mend
Speaker 4: the relationship, and I finally got to a point where
Speaker 4: I was like I can't change them, and I'm just
Speaker 4: going to radically accept who they are and as a
Speaker 4: person of faith, just give grace to them. It doesn't
Speaker 4: mean that I have to have unreasonable boundaries or you
Speaker 4: need to protect myself in a way. But I actually
Speaker 4: found that I didn't need to protect myself as much
Speaker 4: anymore when I gave them radical acceptance. And I think
Speaker 4: that's something that I would hope for our generation who
Speaker 4: has parents who won't go to therapy, like my dad's saying,
Speaker 4: just outside of really being evil or really need to
Speaker 4: separating yourself. I just feel like a lot of people
Speaker 4: are going to have their parents get to their deathbed
Speaker 4: and they were going to regret all those years that
Speaker 4: they set way too strong of boundaries just because their
Speaker 4: parents didn't operate the way that they did in their
Speaker 4: enlightened having gone to counseling self.
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, And I you know, I reflect on that
Speaker 1: even myself. I had a huge blowout, you know, last
Speaker 1: year with my mom, and I think a lot of
Speaker 1: it was my own expectations of who I wanted her
Speaker 1: to be and of who I thought she was going
Speaker 1: to be as a grandparent, you know, or as a mom,
Speaker 1: like or the things that I wanted, And it was
Speaker 1: like I can either hold on to this like steak
Speaker 1: and be like, Nope, I don't want a relationship with
Speaker 1: you because you're not giving me what I want and
Speaker 1: you don't want to go in a girls shore with
Speaker 1: me like that, like and I'm just and I just
Speaker 1: was like, or I accept that she is who she
Speaker 1: is and the times we've had and that she is
Speaker 1: my mother and the like the grandma of my children
Speaker 1: and we can have still good times together and doesn't
Speaker 1: have to look how I thought it was going to look.
Speaker 1: And I think it's it's it's like a sad but
Speaker 1: yet okay, like we're great. She just came to the
Speaker 1: lake House in Alabama and we have we've had a
Speaker 1: great time. And it's just I but I put so
Speaker 1: much like I'm going to steak on my boundaries and
Speaker 1: I'm and then I'm like this is this actually more
Speaker 1: exhausting to be angry at someone who that's not who
Speaker 1: they're that's not who they are.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, the word freedom came to mind when you were
Speaker 4: explaining just how you felt in the first situation versus
Speaker 4: the second.
Speaker 1: Sorry dad, what we're saying?
Speaker 2: No, I mean I created this analogy years ago about,
Speaker 2: you know, a son who's very, very upset about his
Speaker 2: father and because his father pushed him off this cliff
Speaker 2: and fell on the rocks, was knocked out in the hospital,
Speaker 2: and they could never really find the father, and so
Speaker 2: for years hanging on. My dad pushed me off a cliff.
Speaker 2: But there was a helicopter pilot who videotaped the whole thing,
Speaker 2: and his father's father was in the woods with a shotgun,
Speaker 2: and Lewis his father in the back, and his father
Speaker 2: fell forward and pushed him off the cliff and then
Speaker 2: went into the open sea, and the grandfather went in
Speaker 2: the woods. And I used that analogy to say, it's
Speaker 2: helped me to be empathetic toward people who are inflicting
Speaker 2: pain upon me, because quite often there was another generation
Speaker 2: and if you will sit down with him and pull
Speaker 2: out that story, you'll find explanation as to why they've
Speaker 2: made decisions the way they've made it, and quite often
Speaker 2: it's self protective. They were so deeply hurt that they
Speaker 2: made a commitment never again, and of course now then
Speaker 2: we suffer the consequences of that in the next generation.
Speaker 2: And that image really helped me let go of my
Speaker 2: father and forgive him. But that doesn't mean you excuse
Speaker 2: the wrongdoing, and it doesn't mean that I wasn't the
Speaker 2: wounded healer. I tell people, you know, they sent me
Speaker 2: to a military school at age thirteen. I was there
Speaker 2: for the next five years. I wet the bed until
Speaker 2: I was eleven. I tell people, probably that's more information
Speaker 2: you want to know. But there was a moment when
Speaker 2: I picked up a butcher knife and I told Mom
Speaker 2: I was probably about eleven, I'm going to stab dad.
Speaker 2: I'm going to kill him. And she freaked out. She
Speaker 2: had two businesses, very successful woman, and I realized it
Speaker 2: was false. Bravado freaked her out. But I use those
Speaker 2: illustrations to say, look, people who have hurt us often
Speaker 2: have been hurt and how do we then deal with
Speaker 2: that without accepting that? But if I come if I
Speaker 2: lived my whole life as the victim, then then I'm
Speaker 2: damaged goods forever. I've got to come to a point
Speaker 2: where I how am I going to process this? And
Speaker 2: this is where your wisdom is so in refreshing. You're saying,
Speaker 2: you know, I'm gonna analyze this, I'm gonna look at this,
Speaker 2: I'm gonna I'm going to assess this and I'm going
Speaker 2: to accept some things here. I wish I could have
Speaker 2: my expectation fulfilled. I think there there could have been
Speaker 2: so many things that have come to me that would
Speaker 2: have been beautiful and enriching and meaningful, but I was
Speaker 2: deprived of those. But now, what what do I do
Speaker 2: with that?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: All this is such good in fragmation too, like for
Speaker 1: people that are starting over and you know, just to
Speaker 1: circle back to your book one last time before we
Speaker 1: close out, like why why? Also would this be a
Speaker 1: great book for people going through a divorce, you know,
Speaker 1: with young kids to read to them, because you know,
Speaker 1: I remember when I when my kids were younger and
Speaker 1: I was going through my last divorce. It was really
Speaker 1: hard to explain things to my kids too because they
Speaker 1: were at you know, they were just younger, but it
Speaker 1: was it was hard to you know, kind of hold
Speaker 1: on to hope too. So what would you say would
Speaker 1: be the hope within the book for someone that's divorced
Speaker 1: that has kids that's also reading the book.
Speaker 2: Well, I'd say, first of all, we love our kids.
Speaker 2: We love them so much. We die for them. I
Speaker 2: used to say to the kids I love you so
Speaker 2: much I go into a burning car to save you.
Speaker 2: I mean, I love you that much. And so, apart
Speaker 2: from our own pain, we want our children and these
Speaker 2: four questions, is it true? Is a kind? Is it necessary?
Speaker 2: Is it clear? The book that I wrote, we did
Speaker 2: a national research on this. These are all distinct. They
Speaker 2: don't bleed into each other. They're like four legs on
Speaker 2: a table. These are very powerful concepts, and as parents,
Speaker 2: we want what's best for our children. And so the
Speaker 2: question we're asking is do I want my child to lie?
Speaker 2: Do I want them to be unkind? Do I want
Speaker 2: them to say things that aren't necessary? Do I want
Speaker 2: them to go around being unclear? No parent would say
Speaker 2: yes to that. So I think we're giving this to
Speaker 2: them as a gift apart from our own trauma, our
Speaker 2: own pain. And I think as adults that sometimes is unfair.
Speaker 2: Sometimes we have to be the generation that breaks the
Speaker 2: curse that we are the victims of somebody else. But
Speaker 2: let's make a decision as the adult in the room
Speaker 2: not to put our children through that. So it's a
Speaker 2: standalone opportunity, and that would be the first thought that
Speaker 2: comes to my mind. I don't know if that answers
Speaker 2: what you're asking.
Speaker 1: No, it's great and I love it, and you can
Speaker 1: pre order be it gets to do over now and
Speaker 1: it comes out on August eighteenth, and I have so
Speaker 1: many more questions and I'm so lucky that I get
Speaker 1: to steal you again for wind down because I've just
Speaker 1: been writing notes. I feel like it's a good day
Speaker 1: of therapy. So thank you for coming on. I'll do
Speaker 1: part two. Yes, and are you really going through it
Speaker 1: and need some advice of feeling lost in your divorce process?
Speaker 1: Send us an email or leave us a voicemail. All
Speaker 1: the infos in the show notes. Follow us on socials,
Speaker 1: I do part two and iHeartRadio podcast where falling in
Speaker 1: love is the main objective. Thank you guys so much
Speaker 1: for coming on.
Speaker 2: Thank you to you extract fo exct F