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Speaker 1: Hey, I do part two. It's your host Jana Kramer. Today,

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Speaker 1: I've got a father daughter duo who have a lot

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Speaker 1: of experience in the world of relationships, from marriage conferences

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Speaker 1: to counseling. My guest joy Eggerich and her father, doctor

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Speaker 1: Emerson Egerich, have also co authored a children's book together,

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Speaker 1: which I can't wait to talk about. So let's dive in. Well,

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Speaker 1: I am so excited to have I love a good

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Speaker 1: father daughter duo. This is so cute. I always I'm

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Speaker 1: interested to in y'allsen dynamic because we'll just say, doctor dad,

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Speaker 1: how long have you How long have you been a

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Speaker 1: counselor for Well.

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Speaker 2: We've been doing marriage focused issues since nineteen ninety nine. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: my wife nine. Yeah, we've been married over fifty three years,

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Speaker 2: and we do a conference called Love and Respect, and

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Speaker 2: so that's been our focus.

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Speaker 1: Yes, have you read the book? You read the book?

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Speaker 3: Oh?

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Speaker 2: Did I write the book? Yes. I sometimes joke that

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Speaker 2: I have to have my wife read the book eventually,

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Speaker 2: but I wrote Love and Respect.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, that is that is one of the books

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Speaker 1: that has been so incredibly helpful in my marriage that

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Speaker 1: our therapists actually yeah, like he's like you guys need

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Speaker 1: to read this book because it's so interesting how like

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Speaker 1: what women want versus what men and how they receive

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Speaker 1: their love, you know, And it's like I don't. I

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Speaker 1: just didn't really it didn't lock in for me until

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Speaker 1: I read the book.

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Speaker 2: So thank you for that, Well, thank you for sharing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I really I really appreciate that. And then

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Speaker 1: Joy as the daughter, I'm just curious to you because

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Speaker 1: I love the dynamics of and I actually have therapy

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Speaker 1: today with my my personal therapist. But you know, I'm

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Speaker 1: always like, please tell me that you guys aren't just

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Speaker 1: like perfect, and that it's not like you're communicating it

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Speaker 1: like just so great, so perfectly all the time, because like, listen,

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Speaker 1: we just had a couple's therapy a couple of weeks ago,

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Speaker 1: and I'm like, listen, did I say it exactly how

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Speaker 1: my toolbox of words, like, you know, what's really coming

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Speaker 1: up for me right now is that I'm feeling, you know, scared,

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Speaker 1: and I make up that you're blah blah blah. And

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Speaker 1: it's like, did I communicate it properly in that time?

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Speaker 2: No?

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Speaker 1: But I look at my therapist and I'm like, do

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Speaker 1: you communicate it all the time perfectly to your wife

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Speaker 1: and joy as like the daughter of witnessing this thing.

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Speaker 1: Do you sometimes look at the Love and Respect Book

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Speaker 1: or whatever else your doctor your dad is doing and

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Speaker 1: being like, Dad, let's like go through the chapters here,

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Speaker 1: let's skim this.

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Speaker 2: That's exactly right.

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Speaker 4: Well, yeah, no, it's so funny because my husband, we've

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Speaker 4: been married for ten years, okay, and he is just now,

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Speaker 4: thank you, just now reading the book. And he felt embarrassed.

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Speaker 4: But he when we first were dating, he was like,

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Speaker 4: I didn't I didn't want to read the book because

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Speaker 4: I didn't want to feel like I was trying to

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Speaker 4: like work an angle, you know. And so he literally

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Speaker 4: was just reading it last week and he kept putting

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Speaker 4: it down and being.

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Speaker 1: Like, man, I get it.

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Speaker 4: I get why this has sold over two million copies.

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Speaker 4: I get it. It's so good. And I can hear

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Speaker 4: your dad's voice, and he's even last night. My dad

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Speaker 4: has these different phrases that really stick in your brain

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Speaker 4: that you might remember, like stepping on each other's air hoses.

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Speaker 4: And we had date night last night and some things happened,

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Speaker 4: and he was like, not to use a line from

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Speaker 4: your dad's book, but you just stepped on my air hose.

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Speaker 1: I was like, oh boy, here we go.

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Speaker 4: But no, I mean, I think that's none of us

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Speaker 4: are perfect, and that is the message that my parents

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Speaker 4: have always taught me, to give grace to people and

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Speaker 4: to assume goodwill about other people.

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Speaker 1: But we need we.

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Speaker 4: All need the message, you know, and we all need

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Speaker 4: to come back to these communication principles that I've learned

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Speaker 4: from my parents that we write about in this kid's book,

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Speaker 4: that we did together, just over and over and assume

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Speaker 4: goodwill about other people.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. Do you have any thoughts on that

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Speaker 1: as well? Well?

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Speaker 2: We refer to it as negative encouragement when we do

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Speaker 2: our Love and Respect conferences two day event, I share

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Speaker 2: the story when Sarah picked up my Love and Respect

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Speaker 2: book and chased me around the house saying, what would

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Speaker 2: you say to a husband treating his wife the way

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Speaker 2: you're treating me right now? And the crowd goes crazy.

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Speaker 2: But we do that because it was true, but also

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Speaker 2: because I think people have this idea that everybody has

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Speaker 2: a perfect relationship out there except for us. So the

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Speaker 2: key is how do we rebound? How do we repair

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Speaker 2: when we have these heated fellowship moments? As I refer

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Speaker 2: to them.

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Speaker 1: Well, I know I'm going to be lucky enough to

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Speaker 1: have you guys on my podcast wind Down too, so

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Speaker 1: I'm going to hold a couple of those questions. But

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Speaker 1: when it refers to the part two of things right,

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Speaker 1: being in another marriage, what do you think is one

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Speaker 1: of your biggest tips and tools for people that are

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Speaker 1: are hesitant to start over to go Okay, I didn't

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Speaker 1: get let's say love and respect in the past, and

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Speaker 1: I'm afraid to step into this chapter or open myself

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Speaker 1: up again. You know, what can they do to open

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Speaker 1: their hearts up but also to prepare themselves for the

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Speaker 1: next relationship.

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Speaker 2: No, that's an excellent question, And I mean when we've

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Speaker 2: been hurt obviously, when there has been rejection, when there

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Speaker 2: has been that kind of pain. My dad attempted to

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Speaker 2: strangle my mother to death when I was two and

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Speaker 2: a half. I witnessed that, and my mom separated, took

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Speaker 2: my sister and me, and left for five years. I

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Speaker 2: talk about me being the wounded healer as a result

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Speaker 2: of that. And so when you go through trauma like that,

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Speaker 2: who isn't going to be very apprehensive about getting into

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Speaker 2: a relationship and subjecting yourself to that again, And that's

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Speaker 2: a very serious question, and certainly it's one that I

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Speaker 2: feel deeply about, because there are bits of skill you need,

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Speaker 2: bits of knowledge you need just a little skill, a

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Speaker 2: little knowledge. But if you don't kind of have that skill,

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Speaker 2: you don't have that knowledge, or you've tried that and

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Speaker 2: didn't work. I mean, then people get into a point

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Speaker 2: where they really get fearful, and they're overcome by that fear.

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Speaker 2: But my mission. People have asked me, what is the

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Speaker 2: key to you know, you think the problems in marriage?

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Speaker 2: I think, well, given there's basically two good people with goodwill,

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Speaker 2: is joy made reference that we didn't marry Hitler's distant cousin,

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Speaker 2: You know that there is basic good will, then I

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Speaker 2: believe oftentimes in the initial stages it's honest smiths understanding. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and so that honest misunderstanding is really the culprit. Now,

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Speaker 2: there are wicked things that happen, violence that my dad

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Speaker 2: implemented on my mother, that's a different scenario. But most

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Speaker 2: people in those initial stages, we just are on two

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Speaker 2: different planets. I call it a pink and blue perspective.

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Speaker 2: And just as you reference, there are different ways of

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Speaker 2: interpreting things, and we have good hearts, goodwill, but we

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Speaker 2: are just missing each other. And then I can talk

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Speaker 2: more about that, and then the result of that is

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Speaker 2: that we get upset, we get angried with each other,

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Speaker 2: and we keep thinking, you know, this isn't that difficult.

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Speaker 2: I'm not asking you to do something that's difficult, So

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Speaker 2: it must be that you don't care and I don't matter.

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Speaker 1: Which is so hard because it's everyone's own past traumas

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Speaker 1: being re inflicted. But it's not really them. It's just

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Speaker 1: our own stuff too, you know, But yet we place

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Speaker 1: it on them. Sometimes will remind myself that my now

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Speaker 1: husband doesn't have to pay the debts of my last

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Speaker 1: husband and the things that he did to me, you know,

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Speaker 1: like I but sometimes I will place him in a

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Speaker 1: place where I'm like, he didn't do that, So why

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Speaker 1: am I reacting in a way like he did.

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Speaker 3: X, Y or Z. No.

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Speaker 2: It's very wise, I mean, that's very wise. I mean

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Speaker 2: that's exactly the kind of wisdom and prudence a person

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Speaker 2: needs to bring in these situations in the moment. It's

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Speaker 2: not always easy. But obviously, stepping back and looking at

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Speaker 2: this situation, I think you even referenced earlier sometimes we

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Speaker 2: need to have a conversation about how we're going to

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Speaker 2: have conversations. Yeah, you need to be able to say, Okay,

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Speaker 2: in the event that this happens, it's unfair to you,

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Speaker 2: It dishonors you. It's not fair for me to project

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Speaker 2: on to you something that's not true. But I need

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Speaker 2: some grace being given to me during that time, and

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Speaker 2: can we kind of talk about that at some point.

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Speaker 2: Not to belabor the point, but I don't feel it's

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Speaker 2: honorable to you that I would, you know, somehow misrepresent.

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Speaker 1: You, right, joy, did you because you lead the conferences

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Speaker 1: or the Is that right? I did for teny years.

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Speaker 4: I directed their conferences right out of college and then

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Speaker 4: out of that, you know, I was kind of just

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Speaker 4: the event planner. But because I worked the book table

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Speaker 4: and got everybody kind of in line as people were waiting,

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Speaker 4: I had tons of conversations with people. And the thing

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Speaker 4: that I heard over and over and over is people saying, man,

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Speaker 4: I wish we would have had this twenty years ago,

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Speaker 4: if only I knew then what I know now. So

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Speaker 4: for about almost a decade, then I worked with my

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Speaker 4: parents and I had like a vision for eighteen to

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Speaker 4: thirty five year olds when I was in that demographic.

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Speaker 4: I'm now forty four, which, by the way, we both

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Speaker 4: grew up in Michigan and we're about the same age.

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Speaker 4: So fellow Michigander, Yeah, I love it.

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Speaker 1: Do you play Uker? Oh?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yesh in Heisso we used to play it in class?

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, same, Yeah. Oh I love that. So which

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Speaker 1: part of sorry, which part of Michigan East Lansing.

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Speaker 4: But my dad is in Grand Rapids. Now my family

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Speaker 4: all lived to Grand Rapids.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, that's why I loved the book too. I

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Speaker 1: just like knew the Michiganders coming out of that just

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Speaker 1: exuding there you go. I love that.

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Speaker 4: But so yeah, I was just trying to serve whether

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Speaker 4: it was it was kind of a demographic of people

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Speaker 4: who were dating, wanting to be married, or newly married,

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Speaker 4: because I, you know, told my dad, like, these principles, uh,

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Speaker 4: you know apply to everyone, but there's different things that

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Speaker 4: our generation is facing that your generation didn't, and so

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Speaker 4: I was trying.

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Speaker 1: To speak to that.

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Speaker 4: So that was that was I worked with them for

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Speaker 4: many years and my and my dad and I have

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Speaker 4: joked we're always doing some project together another. Now I'm

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Speaker 4: his literary agent and we just wrote a book together.

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Speaker 1: But yes, I'm so excited to chat about the book.

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Speaker 1: I do want to ask one question because a lot

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Speaker 1: of our ide listeners are, you know, either on their

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Speaker 1: second third marriage, but a little bit older. And there's

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Speaker 1: seems to be a rise in the gray divorce. You know,

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Speaker 1: people fifty plus getting divorced. And I'm curious, have you

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Speaker 1: seen that trend as well or is it something where

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Speaker 1: it's do people just they lost communication or why do

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Speaker 1: you think at that age it's like people are wanting

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Speaker 1: to just be alone or start over.

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Speaker 2: No, I mean this is a burden that I have

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Speaker 2: because I think of my own mom and dad. I mean,

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Speaker 2: at the end of the day, dead didn't have evil

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Speaker 2: will here security. He had his issues, he had his moments,

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Speaker 2: the incidences versus patterns, And so I came out of

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Speaker 2: that kind of pain. And I used to watch my

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Speaker 2: mom and dad and I didn't have a vocabulary, but

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Speaker 2: I just felt like they were missing each other. And

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Speaker 2: how is it the two people who really care about

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Speaker 2: each other early on end up coming to this point

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Speaker 2: where someone said to me the other day in her counseling,

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Speaker 2: and she said, women are just telling me I've outgrown

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Speaker 2: my husband and so she's leaving because I've outgrown him,

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Speaker 2: And I think, well, what does that exactly mean? And

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Speaker 2: so there is this I think heartache out there, and

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Speaker 2: my mission is to say, well, let's reconsider. I'm so

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Speaker 2: grateful that my mom and dad reconciled five years later,

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Speaker 2: and I'm so blessed by that and they changed. I mean,

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Speaker 2: it really did change for the better. And so that's

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Speaker 2: part of my life message. I always am hopeful that

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Speaker 2: it doesn't have to end in that kind of despair,

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Speaker 2: because you're going to end up very long when you're

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Speaker 2: eighty nine. There's a component here just from the research

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Speaker 2: I have my doctorate in family studies. You don't want

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Speaker 2: to do something premature here. You want to think long

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Speaker 2: term here, and what does it mean to invest in

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Speaker 2: relationship when you may not be getting from that relationship

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Speaker 2: which you're hoping.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that's a really good point. Whose idea was

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Speaker 1: it for the kid's book?

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Speaker 4: Or my mom?

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Speaker 3: Oh? Really?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? We were sitting around a couple of summers ago

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Speaker 4: talking about just his next books and projects, and and

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Speaker 4: my mom, you know, she just came, she goes, you know,

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Speaker 4: I related, you should do a kid's book about these

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Speaker 4: communication principles and said it in the Land of Enough,

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Speaker 4: which is childhood stories that he told me in you

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Speaker 4: know the dark Michigan winters when it was dark at

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Speaker 4: five o'clock.

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Speaker 1: You mean from September to basically Easter like our last

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Speaker 1: Eastern Yeah, uh huh they I know snow not the

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Speaker 1: Easter bunny. Okay, So give us like because I'm a

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Speaker 1: mom of three so and we love we love a

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Speaker 1: good kid's book. I love too when there is a

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Speaker 1: lesson after it. Uh, it's actually funny. My husband, my

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Speaker 1: son is obsessed. Is too a half and he's obsessed

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Speaker 1: with this one book and at the very end he

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Speaker 1: I don't know why he loves it so much. But

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Speaker 1: every time I'm like, there's no lesson, there's no like

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Speaker 1: I want to like have him just like walk away

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Speaker 1: with something. And it's just kind of ends. And my

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Speaker 1: husband and I both are like, I don't like it.

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Speaker 1: Like we got we gotta hide this one on the

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Speaker 1: shelf because he keeps asking for it, Like, so what

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Speaker 1: is like what is the overall theme? I mean I

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Speaker 1: know what it is, but like give our listeners, like

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Speaker 1: why should the mamas out there get this book.

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Speaker 4: Well, I think one of the reasons that we decided

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Speaker 4: to you know, we both care about these communication principles

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Speaker 4: that are pulled from a book that he wrote called

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Speaker 4: Speak your Mind, which is asking yourself before you speak

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Speaker 4: or write an email or whatever, is it true, is

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Speaker 4: it kind? Is it necessary? Is it clear? And so

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Speaker 4: this is something this is a message that he shared

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Speaker 4: with me when I was in my twenties and we

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Speaker 4: were just talking recently, Like he probably shared it with

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Speaker 4: me when I was in middle school in high school,

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Speaker 4: but it didn't absorb. But in my twenties I really

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Speaker 4: asked when I was in the joining the workforce, and

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Speaker 4: you know, really needed to get a hold of how

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Speaker 4: I communicate it because I'm someone who will blurt and

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Speaker 4: put my foot in my mouth. So we were so

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Speaker 4: really these principles we want to get to parents, you know,

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Speaker 4: because we really think that it will actually help them

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Speaker 4: romantically and in professionally. But we thought, you know what,

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Speaker 4: it probably would change the world if kids started learning

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Speaker 4: these principles young. And I am like you, there are

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Speaker 4: books that I'm like read to them and I'm like,

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Speaker 4: this is my numbingly boring or it's like super silly

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Speaker 4: and funny, but there's no lesson or it's trying to

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Speaker 4: teach a lesson and it's kind of heavy handed. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: and so the Land of Enough, which he made up

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Speaker 4: when I was little, is just a place where anything

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Speaker 4: I could imagine could come true. And there was these

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Speaker 4: two characters, Biga and Douga, who are best friends. I

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Speaker 4: now know as an adult that like he was trying

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Speaker 4: to teach you. It was like the concepts of being

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Speaker 4: and doing. So he was like trying to teach me

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Speaker 4: all these like philosophical things but through a really really

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Speaker 4: fun and funny medium. And so that's what we tried

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Speaker 4: to do, is teach the principles of it, asking yourself,

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Speaker 4: is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?

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Speaker 3: Is it clear?

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Speaker 4: So that kids like me who might blurt learn when

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Speaker 4: to think before they speak, or kids like his best

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Speaker 4: friend Duga, who need to learn when to speak up

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Speaker 4: to have the confidence to do so.

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Speaker 1: I love that and I feel like I could really

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Speaker 1: use this book too, honestly for my ten and seven

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Speaker 1: year old because the words that they're saying back to

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Speaker 1: each other, I'm constantly like, Jolie, that is hurtful. That

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Speaker 1: hurts your brother or Jace, like that is not nice

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Speaker 1: to say to your sister like it and it's and

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Speaker 1: I don't that's only really the words that I have

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Speaker 1: to say from it, and instead I can be like,

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Speaker 1: is that kind? Like I mean, you know, at times,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, you know, how would you like to feel

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Speaker 1: like if you heard that, like that's not that doesn't

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Speaker 1: really feel very nice. And then like to Jolie, I'm like, okay,

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Speaker 1: what is the truth? Like obviously is do you think

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Speaker 1: you're that? You know? And it's it's hard to, especially

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Speaker 1: in those moments, have those kind of conversations. So I

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Speaker 1: appreciate you helping, yeah, helping the parents figure out how

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Speaker 1: to phrase it in a way that it hopefully can

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Speaker 1: stop the name calling or the the choice words.

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Speaker 4: Well, and two as a parent, I'm also a parent

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Speaker 4: of three three years old, six years old, and seven

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Speaker 4: years old, and I can sit them on the couch

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Speaker 4: and tell them lessons all day long, but as you know,

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Speaker 4: like if we're actually because they need to hear it

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Speaker 4: over and over and over, but it will sink in

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Speaker 4: if it's in a story form and a visual reference point.

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Speaker 4: So one of the other things besides those four principles

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Speaker 4: that we want to become a household phrase is can

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Speaker 4: I get a do over? So the title is Biga

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Speaker 4: gets a due.

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Speaker 1: I love that because we do make mistakes. I say

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Speaker 1: it all the time my kids, Sorry, Mommy lost her

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Speaker 1: shit on you, Like I asked you four times to

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Speaker 1: put your shoes away and you did not, so by

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Speaker 1: the fourth time, I'm yelling and I didn't want to yell.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry. Yeah, totally.

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Speaker 4: I mean the amount of times that I have to

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Speaker 4: My dad always says, you know, you're supposed to be

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Speaker 4: the parent in the room, but we oftentimes act like

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Speaker 4: a child. And so that phrase helps me when I

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Speaker 4: can apologize and say, Mommy was acting like a kid here,

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Speaker 4: you know, and I'm really sorry. Can I get a

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Speaker 4: do over?

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Speaker 1: So talk to me about the do over? Then is

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Speaker 1: it just they get a chance to basically redo it again.

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Speaker 4: Well, it's I mean, and Dad, you can jump in.

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Speaker 4: I don't mean to be taking over, but I think

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Speaker 4: sometimes love sometimes it's really hard for kids to say

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Speaker 4: I'm sorry, will you forgive me? And that is you know,

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Speaker 4: that's a practice we want to have in our family.

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Speaker 4: But we were on a podcast recently where it's a

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Speaker 4: mom who speaks to adoptive and foster parents, and so

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Speaker 4: sometimes you have your family rules of like we say sorry,

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Speaker 4: will you forgive me? And you're bringing in children who

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Speaker 4: have different environments that they've grown up or just even

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Speaker 4: on the playground, you know, one family might do one thing,

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Speaker 4: one might do another, and so do over feels like

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Speaker 4: it's a really accessible way to kind of say I'm

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Speaker 4: sorry and I messed up how I communicated and so

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Speaker 4: it's just and it's for parents too. Like my dad

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Speaker 4: and I we got into a little thing this spring

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Speaker 4: and he like came to me with like a twinkle

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Speaker 4: in his eye and he was like, can we get

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Speaker 4: a do over? And we both started laughing because we

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Speaker 4: have the reference point of this book, and so we

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Speaker 4: just think it'll make it lighter, you know, for you know,

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Speaker 4: you can say to your kid, like, hey, why don't

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Speaker 4: you why don't you be like Biga and go to

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Speaker 4: your brother and I and say can we get a

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Speaker 4: do over? It's just a it's an easier lift for them.

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Speaker 1: I love that though. That's very that's very sweet. And

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Speaker 1: I love the fact too that the father daughter dynamic.

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Speaker 1: I think it's you know, I had a difficult father

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Speaker 1: daughter dynamic growing up. But I do believe that when

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Speaker 1: you grow up and you start to learn more, like Okay,

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Speaker 1: how is my dad's dad to my dad? You know,

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Speaker 1: and like wow, how why is he the way that

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Speaker 1: he is? You kind of stopped start stop, I stopped

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Speaker 1: placing blame and just kind of and I'm not saying, oh,

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Speaker 1: it's just who he is, Like, but I also I'm

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Speaker 1: curious and I want to ask you this too. Is

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Speaker 1: I feel like my generation, our generation, like we're in

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Speaker 1: our forties, we've done therapy, or at least we've we've

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Speaker 1: gone like I've been going for since my twenties, and

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Speaker 1: I don't feel like our parents my yeah, yours and

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Speaker 1: mind I'm sure your counselor so you have, but like

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Speaker 1: maybe I don't know other friends of yours parents, Like

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Speaker 1: I don't know anybody else that's ever done therapy or

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Speaker 1: gone into therapy. And it's hard sometimes, Like when I'm

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Speaker 1: with my dad, he's very like anxiously attached, and like,

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Speaker 1: I see that so much because I was also very

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Speaker 1: anxiously attached, Like that was something that I was like,

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Speaker 1: I have a huge problem in that area. And then

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Speaker 1: when I witness it in him. It honestly drives me nuts,

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Speaker 1: you know, and he doesn't understand what it is or

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Speaker 1: and I try to explain it to him, and I'm like,

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Speaker 1: you just we can have silence, we can have him.

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Speaker 1: You don't have to make up for lost time, like

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Speaker 1: we're okay, you know. But it's it's interesting because I

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Speaker 1: don't know with that generation fifties plus, do they want

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Speaker 1: to hear the therapy things, because I almost feel like

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Speaker 1: they kind of look at us like, oh, yeah, you've

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Speaker 1: done the therapy, you know, you know, the stuffy Do

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Speaker 1: they want to taken that information? I guess I don't know.

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Speaker 2: No, that's an excellent question. I think that's kind of

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Speaker 2: the first time that question has been asked that way.

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Speaker 2: You know. I think of my own dad, you know,

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Speaker 2: the baby. I mean, you didn't even you didn't.

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Speaker 1: Even go there, you didn't even say I love you,

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Speaker 1: Like I don't even remember my mom's yeah, saying like

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Speaker 1: I love you to my mom.

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Speaker 2: Yester day I was twenty nine. I still remember on

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Speaker 2: the phone my dad was talking to me and he

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Speaker 2: said I love you, And I said to myself, that's

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Speaker 2: the first time I've heard him say that to me.

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Speaker 1: Same with my mom. When you got divorced. It was

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Speaker 1: like those shoes are those first time I ever heard

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Speaker 1: I'm like what, I'm like, I say it ten million

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Speaker 1: times a day to my kids.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, yes, no, But I think you're you know,

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Speaker 2: I don't know your father, but there is an insecurity

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Speaker 2: that he has that he's probably felt, like, as you

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Speaker 2: just said, he failed you. He's wondering if you, you know,

434
00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:38,399
Speaker 2: hold that against him. I mean, I don't know the

435
00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:41,760
Speaker 2: dynamics there, but I think this challenge for all of

436
00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:46,320
Speaker 2: us is part of the emotional intelligence is self awareness

437
00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:49,480
Speaker 2: and coming to the point of looking at the strengths,

438
00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:52,320
Speaker 2: looking at the vulnerabilities, and being able to continue to

439
00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:55,959
Speaker 2: grow in that. And I think that we have some

440
00:20:56,040 --> 00:21:00,480
Speaker 2: real potential for great wisdom. I applaud that the question

441
00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:02,320
Speaker 2: is how do we deal with our parents? And this

442
00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:04,560
Speaker 2: is where you're seeing younger kids are canceling their mom

443
00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:07,119
Speaker 2: and dads because, you know, they feel hurt by their

444
00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:09,080
Speaker 2: mom and dad. Their poor mom and dad are hurtful,

445
00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:11,280
Speaker 2: they feel offended by mom and dad, Their poor mom

446
00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:13,840
Speaker 2: and dad are offensive. But is that the truth? I mean,

447
00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:16,320
Speaker 2: are your parents really good will people who are trying

448
00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:18,520
Speaker 2: the best. My mother used to always say to me,

449
00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:21,240
Speaker 2: your daddy doesn't know how to be a daddy. His

450
00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:24,479
Speaker 2: daddy died in the nineteen eighteen Flew epidemic when he

451
00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:26,920
Speaker 2: was three months old. Your daddy does not know how

452
00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:31,480
Speaker 2: to be a daddy. She continued to express empathy toward

453
00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:34,840
Speaker 2: the very man who she was separated from for many years.

454
00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:37,520
Speaker 2: And I one day I realized that was a gift

455
00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:40,480
Speaker 2: that she gave to me, that she was empathetic toward this.

456
00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:43,119
Speaker 2: And so I never had hostility toward my father, and

457
00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:46,040
Speaker 2: there was a recognition that he had his limitations and

458
00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:48,640
Speaker 2: that he didn't have a daddy. Did I tell you that?

459
00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:50,760
Speaker 2: And so the same thing with you. And I think

460
00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,959
Speaker 2: this is the challenge. Instead of judging people, let's extend

461
00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:56,760
Speaker 2: empathy to them, which is a real sign of your wisdom.

462
00:21:57,040 --> 00:21:59,480
Speaker 2: I mean that needs to be applauded. And I'm burdened

463
00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:02,879
Speaker 2: about the younger generation that is not empathetic toward the

464
00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:05,679
Speaker 2: shortcomings of their moms and dads.

465
00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:08,640
Speaker 4: Now, well, I think you know Jana as someone, yes,

466
00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:11,440
Speaker 4: who has been going to therapy on and off by

467
00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:13,960
Speaker 4: myself or with my husband. And sometimes people are like

468
00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:17,000
Speaker 4: you and your husband, you know, go to marriage counseling,

469
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:18,919
Speaker 4: even though your dad were all love and respect, and

470
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:22,520
Speaker 4: I'm like, we call it preventive medicine, and we love

471
00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:24,760
Speaker 4: seeking counsel from my dad, but it's also good to have,

472
00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:27,240
Speaker 4: you know, a neutral third party.

473
00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:29,600
Speaker 2: Well, she also knows that I told her upfront that

474
00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:31,800
Speaker 2: I'm always going to be fifty one percent in favor

475
00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:36,040
Speaker 2: of Matt, her husband always going that direction. She didn't

476
00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:37,119
Speaker 2: want to hear that. He didn't want to.

477
00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:40,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, my brother's spouse is because which I think actually

478
00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:43,720
Speaker 4: is fair, because any person marrying into our family would

479
00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:46,600
Speaker 4: assume or to any family, that the parent is going

480
00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:49,320
Speaker 4: to side with their child. So I love and hate

481
00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:54,120
Speaker 4: that they do that. Anyways, one of my a term

482
00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:56,520
Speaker 4: that I'm sure you know from being in therapy that

483
00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:59,960
Speaker 4: really helped me let go of some people in my life,

484
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:02,199
Speaker 4: if not from a like I'm never going to have

485
00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:04,720
Speaker 4: a relationship with you, but actually to have freedom in

486
00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:08,479
Speaker 4: that relationship, is the term radical acceptance. Hell yeah, yeah,

487
00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:11,320
Speaker 4: And I just like when my therapist defined that for me.

488
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:13,880
Speaker 4: For some I just was I really wanted to mend

489
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:15,840
Speaker 4: the relationship, and I finally got to a point where

490
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:19,919
Speaker 4: I was like I can't change them, and I'm just

491
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:23,199
Speaker 4: going to radically accept who they are and as a

492
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,000
Speaker 4: person of faith, just give grace to them. It doesn't

493
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:28,240
Speaker 4: mean that I have to have unreasonable boundaries or you

494
00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:31,080
Speaker 4: need to protect myself in a way. But I actually

495
00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:33,800
Speaker 4: found that I didn't need to protect myself as much

496
00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:37,080
Speaker 4: anymore when I gave them radical acceptance. And I think

497
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,359
Speaker 4: that's something that I would hope for our generation who

498
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:43,000
Speaker 4: has parents who won't go to therapy, like my dad's saying,

499
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:47,119
Speaker 4: just outside of really being evil or really need to

500
00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:49,200
Speaker 4: separating yourself. I just feel like a lot of people

501
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:51,760
Speaker 4: are going to have their parents get to their deathbed

502
00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:54,960
Speaker 4: and they were going to regret all those years that

503
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,640
Speaker 4: they set way too strong of boundaries just because their

504
00:23:57,720 --> 00:23:59,960
Speaker 4: parents didn't operate the way that they did in their

505
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:02,440
Speaker 4: enlightened having gone to counseling self.

506
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:04,560
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, And I you know, I reflect on that

507
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,600
Speaker 1: even myself. I had a huge blowout, you know, last

508
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:09,719
Speaker 1: year with my mom, and I think a lot of

509
00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:12,919
Speaker 1: it was my own expectations of who I wanted her

510
00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:16,520
Speaker 1: to be and of who I thought she was going

511
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,720
Speaker 1: to be as a grandparent, you know, or as a mom,

512
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:22,119
Speaker 1: like or the things that I wanted, And it was

513
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:24,720
Speaker 1: like I can either hold on to this like steak

514
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,119
Speaker 1: and be like, Nope, I don't want a relationship with

515
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:28,320
Speaker 1: you because you're not giving me what I want and

516
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:29,399
Speaker 1: you don't want to go in a girls shore with

517
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:31,080
Speaker 1: me like that, like and I'm just and I just

518
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:34,639
Speaker 1: was like, or I accept that she is who she

519
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:37,919
Speaker 1: is and the times we've had and that she is

520
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:40,360
Speaker 1: my mother and the like the grandma of my children

521
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:43,320
Speaker 1: and we can have still good times together and doesn't

522
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:44,920
Speaker 1: have to look how I thought it was going to look.

523
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,439
Speaker 1: And I think it's it's it's like a sad but

524
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,000
Speaker 1: yet okay, like we're great. She just came to the

525
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:52,399
Speaker 1: lake House in Alabama and we have we've had a

526
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,439
Speaker 1: great time. And it's just I but I put so

527
00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:58,360
Speaker 1: much like I'm going to steak on my boundaries and

528
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:00,720
Speaker 1: I'm and then I'm like this is this actually more

529
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:04,919
Speaker 1: exhausting to be angry at someone who that's not who

530
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:06,080
Speaker 1: they're that's not who they are.

531
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:07,360
Speaker 3: Yeah.

532
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:09,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, the word freedom came to mind when you were

533
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:12,800
Speaker 4: explaining just how you felt in the first situation versus

534
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:13,280
Speaker 4: the second.

535
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:14,359
Speaker 1: Sorry dad, what we're saying?

536
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,320
Speaker 2: No, I mean I created this analogy years ago about,

537
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 2: you know, a son who's very, very upset about his

538
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:24,360
Speaker 2: father and because his father pushed him off this cliff

539
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 2: and fell on the rocks, was knocked out in the hospital,

540
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,040
Speaker 2: and they could never really find the father, and so

541
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:33,240
Speaker 2: for years hanging on. My dad pushed me off a cliff.

542
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:37,000
Speaker 2: But there was a helicopter pilot who videotaped the whole thing,

543
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:40,119
Speaker 2: and his father's father was in the woods with a shotgun,

544
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:43,920
Speaker 2: and Lewis his father in the back, and his father

545
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,600
Speaker 2: fell forward and pushed him off the cliff and then

546
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 2: went into the open sea, and the grandfather went in

547
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,240
Speaker 2: the woods. And I used that analogy to say, it's

548
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:54,280
Speaker 2: helped me to be empathetic toward people who are inflicting

549
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 2: pain upon me, because quite often there was another generation

550
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:00,119
Speaker 2: and if you will sit down with him and pull

551
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:02,960
Speaker 2: out that story, you'll find explanation as to why they've

552
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:05,520
Speaker 2: made decisions the way they've made it, and quite often

553
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 2: it's self protective. They were so deeply hurt that they

554
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,840
Speaker 2: made a commitment never again, and of course now then

555
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,400
Speaker 2: we suffer the consequences of that in the next generation.

556
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:17,600
Speaker 2: And that image really helped me let go of my

557
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:22,439
Speaker 2: father and forgive him. But that doesn't mean you excuse

558
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 2: the wrongdoing, and it doesn't mean that I wasn't the

559
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,159
Speaker 2: wounded healer. I tell people, you know, they sent me

560
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 2: to a military school at age thirteen. I was there

561
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:31,680
Speaker 2: for the next five years. I wet the bed until

562
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 2: I was eleven. I tell people, probably that's more information

563
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:37,199
Speaker 2: you want to know. But there was a moment when

564
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 2: I picked up a butcher knife and I told Mom

565
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 2: I was probably about eleven, I'm going to stab dad.

566
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:43,199
Speaker 2: I'm going to kill him. And she freaked out. She

567
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 2: had two businesses, very successful woman, and I realized it

568
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 2: was false. Bravado freaked her out. But I use those

569
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:55,240
Speaker 2: illustrations to say, look, people who have hurt us often

570
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 2: have been hurt and how do we then deal with

571
00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:01,159
Speaker 2: that without accepting that? But if I come if I

572
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 2: lived my whole life as the victim, then then I'm

573
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:07,200
Speaker 2: damaged goods forever. I've got to come to a point

574
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 2: where I how am I going to process this? And

575
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:12,920
Speaker 2: this is where your wisdom is so in refreshing. You're saying,

576
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:14,680
Speaker 2: you know, I'm gonna analyze this, I'm gonna look at this,

577
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 2: I'm gonna I'm going to assess this and I'm going

578
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 2: to accept some things here. I wish I could have

579
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 2: my expectation fulfilled. I think there there could have been

580
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 2: so many things that have come to me that would

581
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:28,159
Speaker 2: have been beautiful and enriching and meaningful, but I was

582
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,080
Speaker 2: deprived of those. But now, what what do I do

583
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:31,480
Speaker 2: with that?

584
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:42,640
Speaker 3: Yeah?

585
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:44,720
Speaker 1: All this is such good in fragmation too, like for

586
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,239
Speaker 1: people that are starting over and you know, just to

587
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,199
Speaker 1: circle back to your book one last time before we

588
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,399
Speaker 1: close out, like why why? Also would this be a

589
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:54,960
Speaker 1: great book for people going through a divorce, you know,

590
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 1: with young kids to read to them, because you know,

591
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:00,080
Speaker 1: I remember when I when my kids were younger and

592
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,600
Speaker 1: I was going through my last divorce. It was really

593
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 1: hard to explain things to my kids too because they

594
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:08,879
Speaker 1: were at you know, they were just younger, but it

595
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 1: was it was hard to you know, kind of hold

596
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 1: on to hope too. So what would you say would

597
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,879
Speaker 1: be the hope within the book for someone that's divorced

598
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 1: that has kids that's also reading the book.

599
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 2: Well, I'd say, first of all, we love our kids.

600
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 2: We love them so much. We die for them. I

601
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:25,520
Speaker 2: used to say to the kids I love you so

602
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,680
Speaker 2: much I go into a burning car to save you.

603
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:30,919
Speaker 2: I mean, I love you that much. And so, apart

604
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:33,440
Speaker 2: from our own pain, we want our children and these

605
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 2: four questions, is it true? Is a kind? Is it necessary?

606
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 2: Is it clear? The book that I wrote, we did

607
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 2: a national research on this. These are all distinct. They

608
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 2: don't bleed into each other. They're like four legs on

609
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 2: a table. These are very powerful concepts, and as parents,

610
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 2: we want what's best for our children. And so the

611
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:52,720
Speaker 2: question we're asking is do I want my child to lie?

612
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:54,960
Speaker 2: Do I want them to be unkind? Do I want

613
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 2: them to say things that aren't necessary? Do I want

614
00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 2: them to go around being unclear? No parent would say

615
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:01,960
Speaker 2: yes to that. So I think we're giving this to

616
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 2: them as a gift apart from our own trauma, our

617
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 2: own pain. And I think as adults that sometimes is unfair.

618
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 2: Sometimes we have to be the generation that breaks the

619
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 2: curse that we are the victims of somebody else. But

620
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 2: let's make a decision as the adult in the room

621
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 2: not to put our children through that. So it's a

622
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 2: standalone opportunity, and that would be the first thought that

623
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 2: comes to my mind. I don't know if that answers

624
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 2: what you're asking.

625
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 1: No, it's great and I love it, and you can

626
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 1: pre order be it gets to do over now and

627
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 1: it comes out on August eighteenth, and I have so

628
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:34,680
Speaker 1: many more questions and I'm so lucky that I get

629
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 1: to steal you again for wind down because I've just

630
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 1: been writing notes. I feel like it's a good day

631
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 1: of therapy. So thank you for coming on. I'll do

632
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 1: part two. Yes, and are you really going through it

633
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 1: and need some advice of feeling lost in your divorce process?

634
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 1: Send us an email or leave us a voicemail. All

635
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 1: the infos in the show notes. Follow us on socials,

636
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 1: I do part two and iHeartRadio podcast where falling in

637
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 1: love is the main objective. Thank you guys so much

638
00:29:57,920 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 1: for coming on.

639
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 2: Thank you to you extract fo exct F