Speaker 1: I know you're going to buy some of those most
Speaker 1: Michelle Obama necklaces. I'm going to buy this book for
Speaker 1: my dad. Well, I've already been looking at it online
Speaker 1: because they Curtis sent us a PDF book. It's a
Speaker 1: book I want to get. Um, it's so tell me
Speaker 1: it's irrelevant. It's by a marine ecologist, former professor at
Speaker 1: Script's Institution of Oceanography, Dr Enrique Salah. He is exploring
Speaker 1: residence at National Geographic his book The Nature of Nature,
Speaker 1: Why We Need the Wild, and he joins us on
Speaker 1: the phone from the nation's capital on this Tuesday. Dr Salah,
Speaker 1: it is so nice to have you here with us.
Speaker 1: How are you. I'm great enjoying the hot summer of Washington,
Speaker 1: d C. Man, it's brutal. It is brutal. Tell us
Speaker 1: about this book, um, that you wrote and why you
Speaker 1: did it? Yeah, The Nature of Nature? He is my
Speaker 1: lost letter to the planet. I wanted to communicate what
Speaker 1: I have learned for the last thirty years conducting research
Speaker 1: all around the world. I wanted to tell stories of
Speaker 1: how we figured out what happens when species of plants
Speaker 1: and animals and microps get together and self assemble in
Speaker 1: these wonderful ecosystems that we call forests, wetlands, cast land's,
Speaker 1: coral riffs, and why we need to preserve them for
Speaker 1: our own well being. But also I wanted to make
Speaker 1: the economic case that more protection of nature actually would
Speaker 1: be beneficial to the global economy. We'll talk to us
Speaker 1: about that, because that is I mean, we are, after
Speaker 1: all Bloomberg Business Week, and that in addition to Carrol's
Speaker 1: and my own fascination and and really deep belief in
Speaker 1: in conservation, I think I can say pretty fairly I
Speaker 1: think we're both intrigued by the economic aspect of this.
Speaker 1: Break that down for us, talk some numbers and help
Speaker 1: us understand how you put numbers around this. Okay, So
Speaker 1: I was listening before joining. I was listening to the
Speaker 1: prices of the stock and the percentages. So I'm going
Speaker 1: to do something similar. Uh, the natural world contributes with
Speaker 1: hundred and twenty five thrillion dollars in free services to
Speaker 1: the global economy every year. Right, So this is the
Speaker 1: value of the ecosystem services that the natural world provide
Speaker 1: for us. Now, only of the land and seven percent
Speaker 1: of the ocean are protected. Today, forests are being burned
Speaker 1: or a clear cut we are we have lost large
Speaker 1: twis in the ocean. The gloom, the doom and gloom
Speaker 1: list is long. We are basically destroying our life support system.
Speaker 1: So what do we need to do. The science tells
Speaker 1: us that we need to protect at least thirty of
Speaker 1: the planet by if we are to avoid the extinction
Speaker 1: of a million species and the collapse of our life
Speaker 1: support system, and if we want nature to continue helping
Speaker 1: us to absure much of the carbon pollution that we
Speaker 1: expelled into the ammosphere and help us metiate climate change.
Speaker 1: Now the next question as well, Yeah, but how much
Speaker 1: is it going to cost? While we released an economic
Speaker 1: study this this year that suggests that a system of
Speaker 1: protected areas covering thirty of the planet would cost in
Speaker 1: terms of operations and management costs hundred and forty billion
Speaker 1: dollars per year. That's by that's less than when the
Speaker 1: world spends today in video games. That's that's just a
Speaker 1: third of the government subsidies two activities than destroy nature
Speaker 1: just the third. So the money is there, public money
Speaker 1: is there? We just use it for for the activities
Speaker 1: that destroy our life support system instead of preserving it.
Speaker 1: And one more thing is that in the United States,
Speaker 1: for example, for every dollar that the government invests in
Speaker 1: our national parks, that dollar generates ten dollars every year
Speaker 1: in economic output that goes to private through private pockets.
Speaker 1: So that's why we need to invest in nature. It's
Speaker 1: it's a good business. Let's get back to our guest,
Speaker 1: Dr Enrique Sala, explorer and residence at National Geographic his
Speaker 1: book Out The Nature of Nature, Why We Need the Wild,
Speaker 1: and he's still with us on the phone in Washington, DC.
Speaker 1: Is also founder of Christine Sees. So, Dr Salah, I
Speaker 1: want to ask you. You know, I feel like we
Speaker 1: are chasing after so many different problems right now, but
Speaker 1: if we don't take care of the environment, none of
Speaker 1: those problems are going to matter, to be quite honest
Speaker 1: with you. So how do we more successfully as a
Speaker 1: as a as a world make sure we're doing the
Speaker 1: right thing, especially when there's so much disconnect between countries
Speaker 1: and individuals. Look, we even in the US just can't
Speaker 1: kind of get it together and have one cohesive strategy
Speaker 1: when it comes to the virus. So how do we
Speaker 1: as a globe really do this correctly? Yeah, I would
Speaker 1: think that this pandemics taught us once and for all
Speaker 1: that while we perceived that is this connection and politically
Speaker 1: there must be this connection, we are all connected too.
Speaker 1: Only one person in China to be infected by a
Speaker 1: virus coming from a wild animal to create an outbreak
Speaker 1: that then, thanks to our global life style, spread like
Speaker 1: wildfire across the world. Right the health the well being
Speaker 1: of the richest country in the world, of the richest
Speaker 1: person in the world today is dependent on the health
Speaker 1: and the behavior of the poorest person, even in the
Speaker 1: poorest country. We are all connected. We tamper with nature
Speaker 1: on one side of the planet, and the pandemic has
Speaker 1: shown that the consequences are global. You know, this is
Speaker 1: not something that is going to happen to somebody in
Speaker 1: the future like many people thought about climate change. That
Speaker 1: this is happening right now to everybody on the planet.
Speaker 1: So instead of having to respond to the next pandemic,
Speaker 1: we better invest in ridging the risk of the next pandemic.
Speaker 1: And the numbers are very clear what you would cost
Speaker 1: to prevent it's just a fraction of one percent of
Speaker 1: the global GDP one percent, less than one percent, even
Speaker 1: one percent, that would be a very cheap rent to
Speaker 1: pay for the use of our planet. Right, So I
Speaker 1: know that now governments are worried about taking care of
Speaker 1: people in need and reviving the economy, but also we
Speaker 1: need to start thinking about the causes of the pandemic
Speaker 1: and how to protect nature so she can protect us.
Speaker 1: How can we review the risk of more viruses coming
Speaker 1: on our doorsteps? Are people listening? Are the folks in
Speaker 1: in power starting to to listen to this, because we
Speaker 1: have had a number of wake up calls here as
Speaker 1: you're alluding to. But I wonder how discussions around climate
Speaker 1: fit into that. It's all related, right, you talked about
Speaker 1: all these different crisis. It's it's one and same crisis
Speaker 1: because the COVID pandemic originated because of our broken relationship
Speaker 1: with nature, and climate change only exacerbates the problem of
Speaker 1: loss of nature. It reduces the ability of nature to
Speaker 1: absorb much of our carbon pollution. And also it exacerbates
Speaker 1: that the problems with people with the respiratory problems once
Speaker 1: they get the coronavirus. So so it's it's it's all related.
Speaker 1: And it seems that what the people who are against change.
Speaker 1: You know, some people are thinking, oh, we need to
Speaker 1: go back to normal. Well that's the worst thing we
Speaker 1: can do, because the pandemic has shown that the emperor
Speaker 1: has not closed. We have built our world, the global economy,
Speaker 1: not based on resilience, but based on growth, hyper leveraging,
Speaker 1: and that's not sustainable, that's not resilient. We cannot afford
Speaker 1: another one of these. So we need to build back
Speaker 1: better like plants and animals, the self assembling ecosystems that
Speaker 1: are stable, that are resilient. We need to the same thing.
Speaker 1: That is a lot we can learn from nature, from
Speaker 1: how ecosystems form, so we can rebuild our human ecosystem
Speaker 1: in a way that these we don't work for the money,
Speaker 1: but actually the money works for us. You know what
Speaker 1: you just said, um a few minutes ago about this
Speaker 1: whole idea of you know, we're also connected, and what
Speaker 1: happens to an individual in a in a bad either
Speaker 1: health situation where they're exposed to things you know, ultimately
Speaker 1: kind of exposes all of us. It reminds me of
Speaker 1: an expression my sister often says that you're only as
Speaker 1: happy as a parent as your least unhealthy child, and
Speaker 1: we're only healthy as global citizens as are least unhealthy
Speaker 1: global citizen. Is so having said that are we at
Speaker 1: a point where we are overpopulated in Earth and that's
Speaker 1: part of the problem, or is it just our ways
Speaker 1: that's really the problems problem and that needs to be fixed.
Speaker 1: This is one of the big taboos that nobody wants
Speaker 1: to talk about, right the issue of um over population
Speaker 1: and you have two divided camps. What I can say
Speaker 1: without offending anyone, is that it is the per capita use.
Speaker 1: Right now, with the people we have on the planet,
Speaker 1: we have enough resources to fit everybody today. We have
Speaker 1: enough resources to fit ten million people. The problem is
Speaker 1: that we are wasting a third of the food we
Speaker 1: produce from the farm and the boat to the table.
Speaker 1: And also we are hitting too much animal protein, which
Speaker 1: takes a lot of land, it takes a lot of
Speaker 1: fresh water, and it takes a lot of nature that
Speaker 1: if it were not dedicated to raise livestock, for example,
Speaker 1: it will give many more benefits two people. So we
Speaker 1: could fuel our economy mostly with renewable energies, like some
Speaker 1: countries in Europe have shown, we could for the usually
Speaker 1: enough food for the Tamil people with a plant based valuet,
Speaker 1: eating more plants and less animals, and that would be
Speaker 1: good for our health, for the economy, and for the environment.
Speaker 1: But you know, again, we have to fight against the
Speaker 1: special interest which are like the people who are trying
Speaker 1: to make as much more as possible at the casino
Speaker 1: of the Titanic after hitting the icebergs, right right, Well,
Speaker 1: we really appreciate the time you spent with us in
Speaker 1: congratulations on your book. Dr Enrique sala is Explorer in Residents,
Speaker 1: the coolest title that I have ever heard for National Geographic.
Speaker 1: He is also the founder of Christine Sites. And the
Speaker 1: book is really an important one Carol and called the
Speaker 1: Nature of Nature, Why we need the wild and and
Speaker 1: really puts a lot in perspective. Here's one line. If
Speaker 1: we continue our way, soon the only large animals left
Speaker 1: on the planet will be us, our domesticated food and
Speaker 1: our pets. And the largest plant communities won't be the
Speaker 1: magnificent tropical emburial for us. But monocultures like the vast
Speaker 1: industrial crop lands that now make up the American Midwest
Speaker 1: is a survivable future for humanity. And as we talk about,
Speaker 1: you know what the earth is doing right now, the
Speaker 1: way it is responding to us. We've got hurricanes bearing down. Uh,
Speaker 1: you know, We've got heat like we've never seen before,
Speaker 1: record setting temperatures last week in California there in Death Valley.
Speaker 1: So it's sending us a signal. I think that much
Speaker 1: is clear. You and I've talked about that, right, We've
Speaker 1: just you know, whether you want to get all woo
Speaker 1: you know out there. But it does feel like Mother
Speaker 1: Earth is sending us a signal, especially the likelihood that
Speaker 1: we're going to have to be dealing with more and
Speaker 1: more viruses like this if we continue on this path
Speaker 1: that we have. Alright, happy note, Hey, everybody, have a
Speaker 1: great have an awesome time, Pour yourself a glass of wine,
Speaker 1: deal with whatever is coming next,