WEBVTT - Connecting the Dots 0:00:02.640 --> 0:00:05.720 No Wagner family DNA was found on a crime scene. 0:00:06.360 --> 0:00:09.520 Does it matter to this case? I would say that 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:12.479 they absolutely need some sort of physical evidence. It clearly 0:00:12.520 --> 0:00:16.360 isn't happening with the DNA, is the shoe prints, and 0:00:16.440 --> 0:00:21.000 it's the ballistics that's got juror's eyes were glued to 0:00:21.040 --> 0:00:24.040 the latest witness to testify in George Wagner the Fourth's 0:00:24.120 --> 0:00:33.159 murder trial. This is the Piked and Massacre returned to 0:00:33.240 --> 0:00:41.000 Pike County season four, episode nine, Connecting the dots. I'm 0:00:41.080 --> 0:00:44.599 Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Katie Studios, with Stephanie 0:00:44.680 --> 0:00:49.360 Lydecker and Jeff Shane. It's important to note that George 0:00:49.400 --> 0:00:52.199 Wagner has pleaded not guilty and has maintained he did 0:00:52.240 --> 0:00:56.680 not kill anyone. His father, Billy Wagner, whose trial is upcoming, 0:00:57.000 --> 0:01:01.040 has also pleaded not guilty to all charges. Here's Stephanie 0:01:01.080 --> 0:01:03.600 and Jeff speaking about some of the revelations from the 0:01:03.640 --> 0:01:07.840 autopsy results. They mentioned doctor Karen Luhman, who you may 0:01:07.880 --> 0:01:11.520 remember is the forensic pathologist who performed all at autopsies 0:01:11.600 --> 0:01:15.920 and testified at the child How were three people at 0:01:16.000 --> 0:01:18.880 Dana Roden's home shot in their sleep. I just am 0:01:18.920 --> 0:01:21.120 trying to wrap my head around how the perpetrators were 0:01:21.120 --> 0:01:24.039 able to walk around home shooting one person at a 0:01:24.080 --> 0:01:27.000 time without waking anyone else up. And also, one thing 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:30.200 that I thought was interesting about Luman's testimony was how 0:01:30.200 --> 0:01:33.280 she determined that some of the shots fired that night 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:38.399 were what she called at intermediate range, which is essentially 0:01:38.440 --> 0:01:43.200 anywhere between three inches and three feet from someone, and 0:01:43.240 --> 0:01:47.360 then others weren't. She said that's based on something called stippling, 0:01:48.080 --> 0:01:51.520 or actual evidence of damage to the victim, based on 0:01:51.720 --> 0:01:54.560 how close the muzzle of the gun was to the 0:01:54.640 --> 0:01:58.280 victim itself. Some victims had that and were seemingly shot 0:01:58.280 --> 0:02:02.600 at close range, but some didn't. So the choreographing of 0:02:02.600 --> 0:02:08.560 all of that seems so complicated. Who was where when? 0:02:11.120 --> 0:02:15.000 This morning? Lead Prosecutor Angie Kaneppa begins by addressing exactly 0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:18.680 this question. Back on the stand is doctor Karen Luhman 0:02:19.040 --> 0:02:22.880 speaking about Hannah Hazel Gilly's injuries? Can you tell us 0:02:23.040 --> 0:02:27.639 where was gunshot? Wound number one located on the diagram. 0:02:27.720 --> 0:02:30.320 Number one is on the far left. It looks like 0:02:30.360 --> 0:02:32.360 it's on the right forehead. It's a little more on 0:02:32.400 --> 0:02:35.960 the side of the forehead. Doctor, can you tell us 0:02:36.160 --> 0:02:38.280 what did you determine the distance to be of that 0:02:38.560 --> 0:02:44.160 gunshot wound? That is intermediate? And again that intermediate is 0:02:44.480 --> 0:02:48.040 somewhere not contact or lose contact, but somewhere less than 0:02:48.120 --> 0:02:54.760 three feet Yeah, okay, Shots two, three, and four we're indeterminate, 0:02:55.000 --> 0:02:57.600 while shot five was again close range or what she 0:02:57.680 --> 0:03:03.679 calls intermediate. When you conducted your examination of Hannah Rode in, 0:03:04.240 --> 0:03:08.440 how many gunshot wounds did you observe her to have? Two? 0:03:09.639 --> 0:03:12.720 And can you tell us if you determined a distance? Yes? 0:03:13.080 --> 0:03:18.359 And what was that it was indetermined? Canepa has a 0:03:18.440 --> 0:03:21.600 chart where she keeps track of the myriad of gunshots, 0:03:21.600 --> 0:03:24.800 some at a distance, some close, all while the victims 0:03:24.800 --> 0:03:27.440 were asleep. Then she brings up the idea of how 0:03:27.480 --> 0:03:29.760 this might be affected by the use of a silencer. 0:03:32.680 --> 0:03:35.360 And doctor loman I believe you testified to this before. 0:03:35.480 --> 0:03:37.960 But do you know or do you have an opinion 0:03:38.080 --> 0:03:40.720 if there was a silencer used on a weapon, could 0:03:40.720 --> 0:03:47.080 that possibly impact your distance determinations? It possibly could? Yes, Okay. 0:03:47.480 --> 0:03:50.080 The defense has no choice but to address the introduction 0:03:50.080 --> 0:03:53.600 of a possible use of a silencer as well. On 0:03:53.040 --> 0:03:55.760 the last one, of the last points the prostitute made 0:03:56.240 --> 0:04:01.800 the silence, How would that impact determination of the distance? 0:04:02.280 --> 0:04:07.280 A silencer in general would fit around or in the 0:04:07.360 --> 0:04:11.800 area of the muzzle, and it could capture some of 0:04:11.840 --> 0:04:15.480 the soot or stipling that normally would have landed on 0:04:16.000 --> 0:04:19.840 clothes or the body. It may capture that. So, if 0:04:19.880 --> 0:04:23.599 I understand what you're saying, the distance could actually be 0:04:23.760 --> 0:04:33.000 closer than what you have observed. Yes, this is a 0:04:33.040 --> 0:04:35.560 turning point in the trial. It's the first of many 0:04:35.640 --> 0:04:38.920 loose threads that the prosecution finally begins to weave together 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:42.040 for a jury, a public, and a media weary after 0:04:42.080 --> 0:04:46.960 weeks of detail specific testimony. So far, the prosecution has 0:04:47.000 --> 0:04:51.240 worked in a meticulous linear fashion, laying out the grizzly 0:04:51.320 --> 0:04:55.279 narrative that they want the jury to consider. Here's long 0:04:55.360 --> 0:04:59.560 crime reporter Anjeanette Levy. I've covered a lot of trials 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:03.760 my career, a lot of criminal cases, but I've never 0:05:03.800 --> 0:05:08.159 seen one presented in this fashion in court, where it's 0:05:08.200 --> 0:05:11.960 all chronological or goes in chronological order of the investigation. 0:05:12.600 --> 0:05:14.520 You know, it's a two and a half year investigation 0:05:14.680 --> 0:05:18.560 between the time of the homicides and the arrest sometimes 0:05:18.560 --> 0:05:22.000 it just feels like we're bouncing around a lot. You know, 0:05:22.040 --> 0:05:24.039 it'll be up to the jury to determine whether or 0:05:24.040 --> 0:05:27.160 not that was a good strategy. I've often wondered, are 0:05:27.160 --> 0:05:34.840 they confused by this? Here's James Pilcher, longtime investigative reporter 0:05:34.920 --> 0:05:38.560 in Cincinnati, now with Local twelve. When it comes to 0:05:38.600 --> 0:05:42.279 physical evidence, it's the shoe prints, and it's the ballistics 0:05:42.440 --> 0:05:46.839 without Guy. And this is exactly how the prosecution begins 0:05:46.880 --> 0:05:49.320 to connect the dots and tighten the new son George 0:05:49.320 --> 0:05:53.479 and the Wagner family. Today, prosecutors present some of the 0:05:53.600 --> 0:05:56.719 most crucial evidence yet in the trial of George Wagner 0:05:56.800 --> 0:05:59.599 the Fourth and the Pike County massacre. Local twelve James 0:05:59.640 --> 0:06:02.880 Pilcher reports on key footprints that were found at the scene. 0:06:03.360 --> 0:06:06.680 Susan Elliott, a shoeprint specialist for the AHIB Bureau of 0:06:06.720 --> 0:06:09.760 Criminal Investigation at the time of the murders, declined to 0:06:09.800 --> 0:06:12.960 be on camera with her testimony, but she matched footprints 0:06:13.160 --> 0:06:16.159 found at the first crime scene with an actual shoe 0:06:16.160 --> 0:06:19.480 style in size. Juror's eyes were glued to the latest 0:06:19.480 --> 0:06:22.719 witness to testify in George Wagner the Fourth's murder trial 0:06:23.200 --> 0:06:28.359 as she opened large pizza boxes inside pieces of flooring 0:06:28.680 --> 0:06:31.320 cut from one of the Pike County crime seats, the 0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:34.520 trailer on Union Hill Road where Chris Roden Senior and 0:06:34.640 --> 0:06:38.240 Gary Rodin were murdered. She said these impressions that have 0:06:38.440 --> 0:06:41.960 since been enhanced, were not in the crime lab's shoe database. 0:06:45.360 --> 0:06:48.080 You may recall from last season the testimony of shoeprint 0:06:48.120 --> 0:06:52.840 expert William Bodsiac during pre trial motions. Bodesiac, who worked 0:06:52.839 --> 0:06:56.200 on the oj Simpson case, stated that investigators finally found 0:06:56.240 --> 0:07:00.080 the model shoe that made the Prince at Walmart with 0:07:00.120 --> 0:07:05.240 Susan Elliott who made the actual discovery James Pilcher. She's 0:07:05.240 --> 0:07:07.080 the one to found at all. She was the one 0:07:07.120 --> 0:07:09.400 that new will be looking out for the Walmart shoes 0:07:09.600 --> 0:07:13.080 because she remembered, you know, our shoeprin expert found these 0:07:13.120 --> 0:07:14.960 shoes of Walmarts, so we need to be looking for 0:07:15.000 --> 0:07:19.880 anything for Walmar. Here is testimony from Brian Scheiterer had 0:07:19.920 --> 0:07:23.440 BCI investigator who provided testimony the same day about how 0:07:23.480 --> 0:07:28.320 they use that information As a result of learning that 0:07:28.760 --> 0:07:31.480 you were looking for a size eleven shoe that you 0:07:32.080 --> 0:07:35.440 believed belonged to whoever committed these murders, or at least 0:07:35.640 --> 0:07:38.400 one of the individuals. What did you guys do? In 0:07:38.480 --> 0:07:42.520 response to that information, it was decided that we would 0:07:42.520 --> 0:07:46.800 contact the walmarts within a fifty mile radius of Pike 0:07:46.880 --> 0:07:51.320 County and asked for all their records for transactions involving 0:07:51.360 --> 0:07:55.200 that shoe dated back to January first of twenty sixteen. 0:07:57.160 --> 0:08:02.080 In an addition to getting the records of any transactions, 0:08:02.760 --> 0:08:06.920 did you also get a request and receive video surveilance 0:08:07.360 --> 0:08:12.520 that corresponded with this y? As we know from previous episodes, 0:08:12.600 --> 0:08:15.080 this is how the recorded video of Angela buying the 0:08:15.120 --> 0:08:19.080 same model she is was found. Subsequently, they then seized 0:08:19.120 --> 0:08:22.920 a receipt from the purchase. Here's Jeff speaking with Mike 0:08:22.920 --> 0:08:26.880 Allen and your expertise as a lawyer. How big is 0:08:26.920 --> 0:08:30.360 this piece of evidence? It's really big because you've got 0:08:30.400 --> 0:08:35.800 the receipt for purchasing them, they match up in size, 0:08:35.880 --> 0:08:39.720 and then of course she got the bloody footprint in 0:08:40.160 --> 0:08:44.440 one of the trailers. So it's very strong evidence. And 0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:46.959 I think that's something that the jury is going to 0:08:47.000 --> 0:08:49.880 be thinking about. And do you think you know without 0:08:50.000 --> 0:08:54.320 DNA evidence, this shoeprint is maybe the closest thing we have. 0:08:54.760 --> 0:08:57.640 How much weight can the prosecution put on it? Oh, 0:08:57.679 --> 0:08:59.280 I think they can put a lot of weight on it. 0:08:59.360 --> 0:09:02.080 I mean the odds of it being some kind of 0:09:02.160 --> 0:09:06.760 coincidence are in the millions, So I think they'll put 0:09:06.800 --> 0:09:09.280 a lot of weight on It's it's real strong evidence 0:09:09.320 --> 0:09:13.559 for the statement. What's the defensive counter argument to this? 0:09:13.679 --> 0:09:16.480 How do they defend the shoe print? I guess you 0:09:16.480 --> 0:09:20.360 would have to argue that it's a pretty popular brand 0:09:20.360 --> 0:09:23.240 of shoe at Walmart. You'd have to do your homework 0:09:23.280 --> 0:09:26.840 and it. I don't know any other way to do that, because, 0:09:27.000 --> 0:09:29.600 like I said, it's such strong evidence, you'd have to 0:09:29.720 --> 0:09:32.720 argue that well, you know, it is what it is. 0:09:32.800 --> 0:09:35.600 But they were in a real tough position on that one. 0:09:35.640 --> 0:09:37.120 I don't know how they're going to do it. They're 0:09:37.160 --> 0:09:39.800 just going to have to argue coincidence, and I don't 0:09:39.800 --> 0:09:44.800 think the jury's going to buy that. Here's forensic death 0:09:44.840 --> 0:09:50.320 investigator Joseph Scott Morgan. Well, for me, shoper prints tell everything. 0:09:50.559 --> 0:09:57.480 The shoe prints are indicative of purpose. They're indicative of 0:09:58.920 --> 0:10:02.760 thought and air being taken when it comes to planning, 0:10:03.120 --> 0:10:06.880 because from where did the shop prints originate, well, they 0:10:06.920 --> 0:10:12.240 originated from a pair of shoes that were purchased for 0:10:12.320 --> 0:10:17.439 the sole purpose of, you know, following through with this 0:10:17.520 --> 0:10:21.280 horrible plan. We've already got Angela Wagner actually stating that 0:10:21.320 --> 0:10:25.240 she purchased the shoes and for them to have the 0:10:25.360 --> 0:10:31.160 utility to go out for them to commit these crops. Next, 0:10:31.360 --> 0:10:35.440 angel Wilson turns to ballistics. Mister White, where do you work? 0:10:36.080 --> 0:10:39.880 I work at the Bureau of Criminal Investigation also known 0:10:39.920 --> 0:10:45.280 as BCA in London, Ohio. We have been able to 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:50.240 gather from preliminary motions and prosecution filings that there is 0:10:50.320 --> 0:10:54.640 a connection, they assert between shell casings found at at 0:10:54.679 --> 0:10:58.520 least one of the crime scenes and weapons link back 0:10:58.559 --> 0:11:01.560 to the Wagner family. So we do expect that this 0:11:01.600 --> 0:11:04.880 ballistics expert will prove a very important to this case. 0:11:05.880 --> 0:11:08.920 White is a striking presence on the stand. He wears 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:11.640 a broad shouldered black three piece suit and sports a 0:11:11.640 --> 0:11:14.480 wide flat beard that ends the midway down his chest. 0:11:15.520 --> 0:11:18.319 When Matt White comes to work in London, Ohio, VCI, 0:11:19.000 --> 0:11:22.200 what does he do every day? Our primary duties involved 0:11:22.280 --> 0:11:25.760 examination of firearms to determine their operability, as well as 0:11:25.800 --> 0:11:28.920 looking at fired ammunition components, be it a fire cartridge 0:11:28.960 --> 0:11:33.040 case or a fire bullet. I can perform microscopic examinations 0:11:33.440 --> 0:11:35.840 to determine if they've been fired in or from a 0:11:35.840 --> 0:11:38.800 particular farm, and if not, I could generate a potential 0:11:38.840 --> 0:11:42.120 list of farms that could have been fired from. I 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:46.880 want to take you back to April of two sixteen, 0:11:47.760 --> 0:11:51.319 April twenty sixteen, at some point where you asked to 0:11:51.520 --> 0:11:55.360 Adam of fads that have been collected as part of 0:11:55.400 --> 0:12:00.439 an investigation of an eight person homicide in Pike count Yes, 0:12:00.480 --> 0:12:04.120 I was, And can you tell the jury how were 0:12:04.160 --> 0:12:07.120 you initially brought into this case or asked to assist. 0:12:08.840 --> 0:12:13.280 My supervisors notified us that there was a larger case 0:12:13.360 --> 0:12:16.000 that was coming into the laboratory, and I just happened 0:12:16.000 --> 0:12:18.559 to be the person selected to work the case at 0:12:18.559 --> 0:12:23.559 the time. White goes on to testify that he identified 0:12:23.600 --> 0:12:27.400 two types of bullets at Chris Senior's home, thirty caliber 0:12:27.440 --> 0:12:31.280 bullets from a high profiled rifle and forty caliber bullets 0:12:31.280 --> 0:12:35.160 from an unknown firearm crime scene too. The home of 0:12:35.200 --> 0:12:38.280 Frankie Rowden and Hannah Hazela Gilly was a different story, 0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:42.880 were several of the items that you examined from this 0:12:42.920 --> 0:12:46.040 scene shell casings had been recovered by the crime scene unit. 0:12:46.400 --> 0:12:49.880 Yes they were. Yes, this is one fired watching long 0:12:49.960 --> 0:12:53.640 rifle cartridge case. The fact that that cartridge has the 0:12:53.760 --> 0:12:56.720 name long rifle, does that mean that it has to 0:12:56.760 --> 0:13:00.240 be or can only be fired out of a rifle. No, 0:13:00.440 --> 0:13:04.640 certainly not. Twenty long rifle cartridge is generic. It can 0:13:04.679 --> 0:13:08.880 be fired in a pistol, revolver, a rifle, any fire 0:13:09.000 --> 0:13:12.120 that's designed to actually fire that specific cartridge. Were you 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:17.840 also ask to be I think it came from Seeing three. Yes, 0:13:17.880 --> 0:13:21.800 I was. Was one of the items that you were 0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:26.079 asked to look at with respect the scene three as 0:13:26.160 --> 0:13:29.720 shell casing. That was our cartridge casing that was recovered 0:13:30.000 --> 0:13:34.280 from under a crib in this residence. Yes, that's correct. 0:13:34.679 --> 0:13:38.320 This is a fire twenty two long rifle cartridge case 0:13:38.880 --> 0:13:43.040 remick and brand with a rectangular wedge shaped fine pin impressure. 0:13:43.800 --> 0:13:47.800 That item had the same general class characteristics as the 0:13:47.880 --> 0:13:51.520 shell casings that you just testified too from scene two. Yes, 0:13:51.600 --> 0:13:55.520 that's correct, and again or those consistent with the other 0:13:55.800 --> 0:13:59.480 projectiles recovered. An autopsy of the other victims have Seen 0:13:59.559 --> 0:14:02.480 three and the other victims have scene two. Yes, they 0:14:02.520 --> 0:14:08.760 are Stephanie and Jeff. So we have two types of 0:14:09.480 --> 0:14:11.839 bullets found at the scene. We have thirty caliber high 0:14:11.840 --> 0:14:15.200 powered rifle bullets and forty caliber bullets found in Chris 0:14:15.200 --> 0:14:18.600 Senior's home. And we know from Fortner's testimony last week 0:14:18.640 --> 0:14:21.520 that the thirty calibers were sprayed from outside the trailer 0:14:21.600 --> 0:14:23.360 and the forties were found to have gone through the 0:14:23.400 --> 0:14:26.080 floor and into the dirt below the home, so they 0:14:26.080 --> 0:14:28.720 were shot inside. Now here's where it gets confusing, because 0:14:28.720 --> 0:14:31.880 at Frankie and Dana Roden's homes they found twenty two 0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:37.280 caliber bullets. Does that mean that whoever did this, whether 0:14:37.320 --> 0:14:40.560 it's one person or many people, did they do that 0:14:40.600 --> 0:14:45.720 by switching out guns mid murder scene? Or does that 0:14:45.800 --> 0:14:49.600 mean they almost divided and conquered and that different family 0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:52.720 members were using different guns and that they were committing 0:14:52.720 --> 0:14:58.520 these murders simultaneously. They moved on to crime scene four, 0:14:58.760 --> 0:15:02.360 Kenneth Roden's house. If you recall there was only one 0:15:02.400 --> 0:15:08.680 shot fired Station Divot D two eighty two. You've already 0:15:08.680 --> 0:15:13.280 opened her up. Do you recognize the markings on that package? Yes, 0:15:13.680 --> 0:15:18.800 laboratory number, item number and my initials and we're able 0:15:18.800 --> 0:15:22.040 to examine that item and reach any conclusion with respect 0:15:22.040 --> 0:15:25.600 to brand and caliber associated with that Yes, I was 0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:29.040 able to conclude this as a fired forty Smith and 0:15:29.080 --> 0:15:33.680 Wesson cartridge case horn Day brand. Were you asked to 0:15:33.720 --> 0:15:38.120 make some comparisons in this case to determine whether or 0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:42.160 not certain pieces of evidence had been fired by the 0:15:42.280 --> 0:15:45.920 same weapon at each scene? Yes, I was. Were you 0:15:45.960 --> 0:15:48.320 able to reach a conclusion to a reasonable degree of 0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:51.680 scientific certainty as to whether or not the forty caliber 0:15:51.720 --> 0:15:55.440 shell casing a scene one was fired from the same 0:15:55.480 --> 0:15:59.600 firearm that fired the forty caliber shellcasing the scene forty Yes, 0:16:00.440 --> 0:16:04.280 microscopic comparison examining of the two fired forty Smith and 0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:07.320 Weston cartridge cases, I was able to conclude the two 0:16:08.440 --> 0:16:11.840 forty Smith and Weston cartridge cases had been fired in 0:16:11.960 --> 0:16:18.360 the same fire. Media outlets jumped on the breaking news. Today, 0:16:18.360 --> 0:16:21.760 prosecutors turned to the bullets used in all eight murders. 0:16:21.960 --> 0:16:25.440 The casings included a forty caliber shell found on Chris 0:16:25.480 --> 0:16:28.640 Senior's kitchen floor. He also showed the bullets to retrieved 0:16:28.640 --> 0:16:32.880 from the victim's bodies. His testimony came after another BCI 0:16:32.960 --> 0:16:35.840 agent walked through the crime scene where police found Chris 0:16:35.840 --> 0:16:40.000 Senior's brother, Kenneth Rowden, shot in his bed. Agents also 0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:45.160 found a forty caliber shell in his bed. We're going 0:16:45.200 --> 0:16:47.360 to take a break. We'll be back in a moment. 0:16:55.320 --> 0:16:57.920 The next day, the prosecution picks up once again with 0:16:58.040 --> 0:17:01.760 testimony from Matthew White Angel. Wilson is intent on further 0:17:01.800 --> 0:17:06.000 closing the loop on the physical ballistic evidence. In addition 0:17:06.040 --> 0:17:09.600 to that information that you passed onto the investigators, did 0:17:09.640 --> 0:17:12.879 you do further work or further analysis to try to 0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:17.480 determine what kind of twenty two or what kind of 0:17:17.520 --> 0:17:23.000 forty was involved in these homicides? Yes. Oftentimes, if I'm 0:17:23.080 --> 0:17:26.560 encountered evidence and there's no firearms submitted, I can look 0:17:26.560 --> 0:17:29.919 at certain features of the fire cartridge cases or the 0:17:30.000 --> 0:17:33.639 fire bullets to give a possible list of firearms that 0:17:33.760 --> 0:17:36.639 could have fired them to aid investigators and what they 0:17:36.680 --> 0:17:40.560 should be looking for. In the case of the twenty two, 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:44.520 he pinpoints the probable gun used. I was able to 0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:50.600 examine other examples of test fires taken with Walter Cold 0:17:50.680 --> 0:17:54.760 nineteen eleven twenty two pistols. I was able to physically 0:17:54.800 --> 0:18:00.159 examine a couple different of the specific guns. I was 0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:04.439 able to disassemble them, look at them further, examine the 0:18:04.640 --> 0:18:09.600 firing pin itself, take additional test fires for comparison. In 0:18:09.720 --> 0:18:14.840 addition to that, I corresponded with a design engineer at 0:18:14.920 --> 0:18:19.720 Walter in Germany about the shape the orientation of the 0:18:19.720 --> 0:18:23.560 fine pin impression. He was able to look at some 0:18:23.680 --> 0:18:27.879 stock examples at the factory of farms that they were producing, 0:18:28.560 --> 0:18:32.320 and he agreed and concurred that the shape of the 0:18:32.320 --> 0:18:36.640 fine pin impression and the orientation of it was consistent 0:18:36.760 --> 0:18:41.480 with the farms that they produced the Walter Colt nineteen 0:18:41.480 --> 0:18:46.360 eleven twenty two pistols. In the case of the forty caliber, 0:18:46.560 --> 0:18:49.159 he pulls up an enlargement of the bullet casing, pointing 0:18:49.160 --> 0:18:52.400 out marks around the base of it. You can see 0:18:52.440 --> 0:18:56.919 the fine pin impression itself. It's elliptical, it is not 0:18:57.320 --> 0:19:03.680 circular in shape. Those two features are very common with 0:19:04.040 --> 0:19:10.240 block firearms. So based on those observations, again, did you 0:19:10.280 --> 0:19:13.800 begin to feel that a block firearm or a forty 0:19:13.800 --> 0:19:18.760 cow block was responsible for shooting the showcases recover from 0:19:18.840 --> 0:19:23.040 scene one in ze four. Yes, the lock is by 0:19:23.080 --> 0:19:32.000 far the most common firearm encountered that has those two characteristics. Next, 0:19:32.040 --> 0:19:35.399 the prosecution asked a key question of light. But at 0:19:35.440 --> 0:19:37.800 that time, when you were doing your initial work in 0:19:37.840 --> 0:19:41.399 this case, did you have a firearm that had been 0:19:41.480 --> 0:19:45.640 plected as evidence to compare from the scene or from 0:19:45.640 --> 0:19:51.280 a suspect. No, I did not to understand the recovery 0:19:51.320 --> 0:19:54.480 of the Wagner's firearms. Brian Scheider is asked to step 0:19:54.480 --> 0:19:56.840 back and give the jury a big picture on how 0:19:56.880 --> 0:20:01.120 they began their investigation. Remember, at the time, BCI did 0:20:01.160 --> 0:20:05.000 not yet know the Wagners were involved. Back to that 0:20:05.160 --> 0:20:08.320 very first day, you responded to the Sheriff's office, you 0:20:08.400 --> 0:20:11.800 interviewed some people, then what happened? Then what did you do? 0:20:12.680 --> 0:20:15.000 Things were still very confusing at that time. There's a 0:20:15.000 --> 0:20:18.919 lot of information coming in, as you can expect. The 0:20:19.040 --> 0:20:21.080 media was on scene at the time, so this had 0:20:21.080 --> 0:20:26.320 went statewide as well as national. So eventually we went 0:20:26.359 --> 0:20:28.640 back to the piked And Police Department and we try 0:20:28.680 --> 0:20:32.040 to organize things like we knew this was going to 0:20:32.119 --> 0:20:34.280 be We're going to be in for the long haul 0:20:34.320 --> 0:20:37.040 on this. We're trying to say, here's what we had 0:20:37.040 --> 0:20:39.840 at the crime scenes, here's what the families told us, 0:20:40.040 --> 0:20:42.440 and here's tips that are coming in. That's all happening 0:20:42.600 --> 0:20:47.040 extremely fast. Like it's overwhelming, it overloads you, it's coming 0:20:47.080 --> 0:20:50.960 in so fast. We also established a tip system because 0:20:51.000 --> 0:20:54.160 we had so many tips coming in. Ultimately, I believe 0:20:54.200 --> 0:20:56.480 we had eleven hundred and forty three tips that came 0:20:56.520 --> 0:20:59.360 in through the end of the investigation to the arrests, 0:20:59.640 --> 0:21:03.760 and eleven forty three of those tips were investigated and cleared. 0:21:04.520 --> 0:21:08.440 And so how was that tip system established. They would 0:21:09.040 --> 0:21:11.480 mark the tip, it would get assigned to an agent, 0:21:12.000 --> 0:21:15.639 and the agent would go out investigate the tip and 0:21:15.760 --> 0:21:20.800 respond back and report his or her findings. At some point, 0:21:20.800 --> 0:21:23.760 they received a tip about the Wagner's collection of firearms. 0:21:24.600 --> 0:21:28.040 Here's Jeff speaking with Mike Gallen. Law enforcement have to 0:21:28.119 --> 0:21:30.080 verify who sent the tip or does it not matter 0:21:30.080 --> 0:21:32.840 if if it checks out? You mean, when the tip 0:21:32.920 --> 0:21:34.960 comes in, try to figure out who it is. Yeah, 0:21:35.000 --> 0:21:36.520 Like if they got a tip that, oh, you should 0:21:36.520 --> 0:21:38.960 search this property because there might be weapons there. If 0:21:38.960 --> 0:21:41.080 that tip checks out, doesn't matter who called it in. 0:21:41.240 --> 0:21:42.880 In theory, wouldn't they want to track that person down 0:21:42.880 --> 0:21:46.840 because that's a good witness or they don't care. They 0:21:46.960 --> 0:21:49.520 probably would have to have more than that. You know, 0:21:49.560 --> 0:21:51.840 they get a tip like that, they'd have to develop 0:21:51.880 --> 0:21:54.480 its somewhat, you know, just some Tom Dick or Harry 0:21:54.560 --> 0:21:57.199 calling and saying, Hey, you know, I think there's a 0:21:57.240 --> 0:22:01.240 bunch of evidence and weapons down there Joe Jones's house. 0:22:01.960 --> 0:22:04.480 The cops will have to have more than that. You 0:22:04.600 --> 0:22:06.360 just use the term to develop the tip. I've never 0:22:06.400 --> 0:22:09.160 heard that. What does that mean? You know, perhaps try 0:22:09.200 --> 0:22:12.480 to find out whatever this witness said, maybe go to 0:22:12.560 --> 0:22:16.000 the place, check it out, maybe talked to other people. 0:22:16.320 --> 0:22:18.719 I just think that would be very weak to go 0:22:18.760 --> 0:22:21.080 to a judge and ask for a search warrant just 0:22:21.200 --> 0:22:24.800 based on a completely anonymous tips that they would have 0:22:24.840 --> 0:22:28.520 to bolster that somehow it was enough to get warrants 0:22:28.560 --> 0:22:35.040 to search the Wagner's property. We also talked about you 0:22:35.320 --> 0:22:39.760 seeking court orders for various phone records and Facebook records 0:22:39.760 --> 0:22:44.480 and any other records are correct, and can you tell 0:22:44.560 --> 0:22:47.399 us kind of at what point did that start to 0:22:47.440 --> 0:22:50.320 happen and what kinds of information were you receiving that 0:22:51.359 --> 0:22:54.080 led you to turn your attention to them. It takes 0:22:54.080 --> 0:22:57.960 a long time to examine those things, you know, many 0:22:57.960 --> 0:23:01.600 of those files are extremely large, several thousand pages. It 0:23:01.680 --> 0:23:04.760 is these electronic records a lead BCI to Jake Wagner 0:23:04.960 --> 0:23:08.399 via social media posts about custody of his and Hannime 0:23:08.520 --> 0:23:12.680 Rodin's young child. When we first made contact with Jake Wagner, 0:23:13.359 --> 0:23:16.239 he had indicated that everything was okay, that he had 0:23:16.280 --> 0:23:19.640 a good relationship with Hannah, and there's no issues involving 0:23:19.680 --> 0:23:22.840 their child that they shared together. So that that was 0:23:22.880 --> 0:23:27.960 a little suspicious morranted a little further investigation, obviously, But 0:23:28.040 --> 0:23:30.840 we were also conducting an interviews of friends and family 0:23:31.119 --> 0:23:36.560 who were reporting a similar situation. So you kind of 0:23:36.560 --> 0:23:39.120 have conflicting stories, right. You have one side that's saying 0:23:39.160 --> 0:23:43.879 everything's okay, and then you have records and family members 0:23:43.880 --> 0:23:46.720 and friends that are saying that's not true. So that 0:23:46.920 --> 0:23:49.480 kind of you know, you need to investigate that that's important, 0:23:49.520 --> 0:23:51.760 that's a lead, that's that's something that needs to be 0:23:51.840 --> 0:23:54.720 ran down, and so that's what we started to do. 0:23:56.200 --> 0:24:01.240 Did you also look at Jake's fall and did you 0:24:01.280 --> 0:24:05.360 find anything of interest on that phone? Yes? And can 0:24:05.400 --> 0:24:08.560 you tell us what you thought? And again, these were 0:24:08.600 --> 0:24:11.960 expedited reviews of these records. It wasn't like we had 0:24:12.040 --> 0:24:15.159 days to go through these. We literally downloaded these phones 0:24:15.160 --> 0:24:18.520 and started going through quickly. But one of the most 0:24:18.760 --> 0:24:21.800 interesting things that we found on Jake's phone at that 0:24:21.920 --> 0:24:25.200 time was under the note section, and it was a 0:24:25.200 --> 0:24:28.720 list of guns owned by the Wagoners or purported to be. 0:24:29.240 --> 0:24:31.800 So basically there's a list with each Wagner's name and 0:24:31.800 --> 0:24:33.920 then a list of guns underneath each of those names. 0:24:34.480 --> 0:24:37.640 At this point, the defense objects and everyone approaches Judge 0:24:37.720 --> 0:24:42.399 during upon request, they consult briefly and during rules testimony 0:24:42.440 --> 0:24:49.280 can continue. Thank you, honor, Agent Scheider. I'm going to 0:24:49.359 --> 0:24:51.960 show you what is going to be marked as students 0:24:52.119 --> 0:24:56.360 at h two. Okay, and can you tell us first 0:24:56.400 --> 0:24:59.680 of all, Agent Scheider, what are we looking at? This 0:24:59.800 --> 0:25:02.960 was again, this is a an extraction report or a 0:25:03.000 --> 0:25:07.960 snippet of an extraction report related to Jake's iPhone that 0:25:08.040 --> 0:25:11.280 we took of May of seventeen, and this was found 0:25:11.280 --> 0:25:14.800 in the notes section of the phone, and it is 0:25:14.840 --> 0:25:20.480 a list of firearms and associated Wagner names. Go through 0:25:20.560 --> 0:25:23.760 those and tell us which guns are listed belonging and 0:25:24.000 --> 0:25:26.720 belonging to do and what date was that list created 0:25:27.400 --> 0:25:30.879 pursuing to the reports. I'm having trump to see you 0:25:30.920 --> 0:25:38.080 that February eleventh, twenty fifteen. Okay, thank you, and go 0:25:38.119 --> 0:25:42.679 ahead and tell us what guns are listed there? Starting 0:25:42.680 --> 0:25:47.480 at the top, the list starts with George's and Acadian possession, 0:25:48.400 --> 0:25:54.520 and it says Glock seventeen nine millimeter, Baretta ninety six 0:25:54.800 --> 0:26:01.640 forty caliber, Taurus Revolver three fifty seven, Remington fourteen twenty two, 0:26:02.160 --> 0:26:07.560 Ruger M seventy seven to seventy, ruger M seventy seven, 0:26:07.680 --> 0:26:13.240 twenty two, Hornets, Remington Woodmaster thirty six, Ruger M seventy 0:26:13.280 --> 0:26:18.960 seven twenty two, c Z twenty two and SKS seven 0:26:19.040 --> 0:26:23.240