1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:05,920 Speaker 1: No Wagner family DNA was found at a crime scene. 2 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:09,600 Speaker 1: Does it matter to this case? I would say that 3 00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:12,559 Speaker 1: they absolutely need some sort of physical evidence. It's clearly 4 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:16,479 Speaker 1: isn't happening with the DNA. It's the shoe, Prince, and 5 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:20,640 Speaker 1: it's the ballistics. That's what I've got. Juror's eyes were 6 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:23,639 Speaker 1: glued to the latest witness to testify in George Wagner 7 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 1: the Fourth's murder trial. This is the Pikedon massacre. Return 8 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:38,240 Speaker 1: to Pike County Season four, episode nine, Connecting the dots. 9 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:44,199 Speaker 1: I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Kat's Studios, with 10 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: Stephanie Leidecker and Jeff Shane. It's important to note that 11 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 1: George Wagner has pleaded not guilty and has maintained he 12 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: did not kill anyone. His father, Billy Wagner, whose trial 13 00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 1: is upcoming, has also pleaded not guilty to all charges. 14 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 1: Here's Stephanie and Jeff speaking about some of the revelations 15 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:07,640 Speaker 1: from the autopsy results. They mentioned doctor Karen Luhman, who 16 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:10,560 Speaker 1: you may remember is the forensic pathologist who performed all 17 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:15,480 Speaker 1: aid autopsies and testified at the trial. How were three 18 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: people at Dana Roden's home shot in their sleep. I 19 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:20,399 Speaker 1: just am trying to wrap my head around how the 20 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:23,880 Speaker 1: perpetrators were able to walk around home shooting one person 21 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: at a time without waking anyone else up. And also, 22 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 1: one thing that I thought was interesting about Luman's testimony 23 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 1: was how she determined that some of the shots fired 24 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 1: that night were what she called at intermediate range, which 25 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:42,679 Speaker 1: is essentially anywhere between three inches and three feet from someone, 26 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:46,640 Speaker 1: and then others weren't. She said that's based on something 27 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 1: called stippling, or actual evidence of damage to the victim, 28 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 1: based on how close the muzzle of the gun was 29 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 1: to the victim itself. Some victims had that and were 30 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 1: seemingly shot at close range, but some didn't. So the 31 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 1: choreographing of all of that seems so complicated. Who was 32 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 1: where ween this morning? Lead Prosecutor Angie Kineppa begins by 33 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 1: addressing exactly this question. Back on the stand, is doctor 34 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 1: Karen Luhman speaking about Hannah Hazel Gilly's injuries? Can you 35 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 1: tell us where was gunshot? Wound number one located on 36 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:29,960 Speaker 1: the diagram. Number one is on the far left. It 37 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 1: looks like it's on the right forehead. It's a little 38 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: more on the side of the forehead. Doctor, can you 39 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 1: tell us what did you determine the distance to be 40 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 1: of that gunshot wound? That is intermediate? And again that 41 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:47,639 Speaker 1: intermediate is somewhere not contact or lose contact, but somewhere 42 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 1: less than three feet. Yeah, okay, Shots two, three, and 43 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 1: four were indeterminate, while shot five was again close range 44 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 1: or what she calls intermediate. When you conducted your examination 45 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:07,280 Speaker 1: of Hannah Rodin, how many gunshot wounds did you observe 46 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 1: her to have? Two? And can you tell us if 47 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 1: you determined a distance? Yes? And what was that it 48 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 1: was indeterminate? Kanepa has a chart where she keeps track 49 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:23,400 Speaker 1: of the myriad of gunshots, some at a distance, some close, 50 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: all while the victims were asleep. Then she brings up 51 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 1: the idea of how this might be affected by the 52 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 1: use of a silencer. And doctor Lomon, I believe you 53 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 1: testified to this before. But do you know or do 54 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 1: you have an opinion if there was a silencer used 55 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 1: on a weapon, could that possibly impact your distance determinations? 56 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 1: It possibly could? Yes, okay. The defense has no choice 57 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 1: but to address the introduction of a possible use of 58 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 1: a silencer as well on the one of the last 59 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: points the prosecuted made the silence, How would that impact 60 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 1: determination of the distance. A silencer in general would fit 61 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 1: around or in the area of the muzzle, and it 62 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: could capture some of the soot or stipling that normally 63 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 1: would have landed on clothes or the body. It may 64 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:21,920 Speaker 1: capture that. So, if I understand what you're saying, the 65 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:27,159 Speaker 1: distance could actually be closer than what you have observed. Yes, 66 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:34,919 Speaker 1: this is a turning point in the trial. It's the 67 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:38,280 Speaker 1: first of many loose threads that the prosecution finally begins 68 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 1: tweave together for a jury, a public, and a media 69 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 1: weary after weeks of detailed, specific testimony. So far, the 70 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:50,840 Speaker 1: prosecution has worked in a meticulous linear fashion, laying out 71 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:53,359 Speaker 1: the grizzly narrative that they want the jury to consider. 72 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 1: Here's long crime reporter an Jeannette Levy. I've covered a 73 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 1: lot of trials my career, a lot of criminal cases, 74 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 1: but I've never seen one presented in this fashion in court, 75 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 1: where it's all chronological or goes in chronological order of 76 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 1: the investigation. You know, is a two and a half 77 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 1: year investigation between the time of the homicides, and the arrests. 78 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 1: Sometimes it just feels like we're bouncing around a lot. 79 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 1: You know, it'll be up to the jury to determine 80 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 1: whether or not that was a good strategy. I've often wondered, 81 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 1: are they confused by this? Here's James Pilcher, longtime investigative 82 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 1: reporter in Cincinnati, now with Local twelve. When it comes 83 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 1: to physical evidence, it's the shoe prints and it's the ballistics. 84 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:45,719 Speaker 1: That's what they've got. And this is exactly how the 85 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 1: prosecution begins to connect the dots and tighten the news 86 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 1: son George and the Wagner family. Today, prosecutors present some 87 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:56,039 Speaker 1: of the most crucial evidence yet in the trial of 88 00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:59,040 Speaker 1: George Wagner the fourth and the Pike County massacre. Local 89 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:02,160 Speaker 1: twelves James Pilcher there reports on key footprints that were 90 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 1: found at the scene. Susan Elliott, a shoe print specialist 91 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 1: for the Ohia Bureau of Criminal Investigation at the time 92 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 1: of the murders, declined to be on camera with her testimony, 93 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:14,839 Speaker 1: but she matched footprints found at the first crime scene 94 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 1: with an actual shoe style insize. Juror's eyes were glued 95 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:21,719 Speaker 1: to the latest witness to testify in George Wagner the 96 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 1: Fourth's murder trial as she opened large pizza boxes inside 97 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:30,159 Speaker 1: pieces of flooring cut from one of the Pike County 98 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:33,679 Speaker 1: crime scenes, the trailer on Union Hill Road where Chris 99 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:37,279 Speaker 1: Rodin Senior and Gary Roden were murdered. She said these 100 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 1: impressions that have since been enhanced, were not in the 101 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:46,839 Speaker 1: crime lab's shoe database. You may recall from last season 102 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 1: the testimony of shoe print expert William Bodziak during pre 103 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 1: trial motions. Bodziak, who worked on the oj Simpson case, 104 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: stated that investigators finally found the model shoe that made 105 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 1: the Prince at Walmart. It was Susan Elliott who made 106 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 1: the actual discovery. James Pilcher, She's the one I found 107 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 1: it all. Here was the one that it'll be looking 108 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 1: out for the Walmart shoes because she remembered, you know, 109 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 1: our shoeprint expert found these shoes of Walmart, so we 110 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 1: need to be looking for anything from Walmart. Here's testimony 111 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 1: for Brian Scheiderer, head BCI investigator, who provided testimony the 112 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 1: same day about how they use that information as a 113 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: result of learning that you were looking for a size 114 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 1: eleven shoe that you believed belonged to whoever committed these murders, 115 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 1: or at least one of the individuals. What did you 116 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 1: guys do In response to that information? It was decided 117 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 1: that we would contact the walmarts within a fifty mile 118 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 1: radius of Pike County and asked for all their records 119 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 1: for transactions involving that shoe dated back to January first 120 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 1: of twenty sixteen. Okay, And in addition to getting the 121 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 1: records of any transactions, did you also get a request 122 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 1: and receive video surveillance that corresponded with this listening. Yes, 123 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 1: As we know from previous episodes, this is how the 124 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 1: recorded video of Angela buying the same model she was found. Subsequently, 125 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 1: they then seized a receipt from the purchase. Here's Jeff 126 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 1: speaking with Mike Gallon and your expertise as a lawyer. 127 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 1: How big is this piece of evidence? It's really big 128 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 1: because you've got the receipt for purchasing them, they match 129 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 1: up in size, and then of course she got the 130 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:42,559 Speaker 1: bloody footprint in one of the trailers. So it's very 131 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 1: strong evidence. And I think that's something that the Jerry's 132 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 1: going to be thinking about. And do you think, you know, 133 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 1: without DNA evidence, this shoe print is maybe the closest 134 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 1: thing we have. How much weight can the prosecution put 135 00:08:57,040 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 1: on it? Oh, I think they can put a lot 136 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 1: of weight on it. I mean the odds of it 137 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 1: being some kind of coincidence are just in the millions, 138 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 1: So I think they'll put a lot of weight on 139 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:11,720 Speaker 1: It's it's real strong evidence for the state. What's the 140 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 1: Defensi's counter argument to this? How do they defend the 141 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 1: shoe print? I guess you would have to argue that 142 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:22,200 Speaker 1: it's a pretty popular brand of shoe at Walmart. You'd 143 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 1: have to do your homework in it. I don't know 144 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 1: any other way to do that, because, like I said, 145 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:30,679 Speaker 1: it's such strong evidence, you'd have to argue that, well, 146 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 1: you know, it is what it is. But they're in 147 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:36,080 Speaker 1: a real tough position on that one. I don't know 148 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:37,599 Speaker 1: how they're going to do it. They're just going to 149 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:40,560 Speaker 1: have to argue coincidence, and I don't think the jury's 150 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:48,040 Speaker 1: going to buy that. Here's forensic death investigator Joseph Scott Morgan. Well, 151 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 1: for me, shoe prints tell everything. The shoe prints are 152 00:09:52,280 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 1: indicative of purpose, They're indicative of thought and care being 153 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:04,960 Speaker 1: taken when it comes to planning. Because from where does 154 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:09,319 Speaker 1: the shoe prints originate? Well, they originated from a pair 155 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 1: of shoes that were purchased for the sole purpose of, 156 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 1: you know, following through with this horrible plan. We've already 157 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 1: got Angela Wagner actually stating that she purchased the shoes 158 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 1: and for them to have the utility to go out 159 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 1: for them to commit these crops. Next, angel Willison turns 160 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:36,559 Speaker 1: to ballistics. Mister White, where do you work? I work 161 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 1: at the Bureau of Criminal Investigation also known as BCI 162 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 1: in London, Ohio. We have been able to gather from 163 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 1: preliminary motions and prosecution filings that there is a connection, 164 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 1: they assert between shellcasings found at at least one of 165 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:59,959 Speaker 1: the crime scenes and weapons link back to the Wagner family. 166 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:03,319 Speaker 1: So we do expect that this ballistics expert will prove 167 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 1: very important to this case. Why does a striking presence 168 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 1: on the stand. He wears a broad shouldered black three 169 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:13,320 Speaker 1: piece suit and sports a wide flat beard that ends 170 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:16,680 Speaker 1: the midway down his chest. When Matt White comes to 171 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 1: work in London, Ohio at VCI, what does he do 172 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 1: every day? My primary duties involved the examination of firearms 173 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 1: to determine their operability, as well as looking at fired 174 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 1: ammunition components, be it a fired cartridge case or a 175 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 1: fired bullet. I can perform microscopic examinations to determine if 176 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:37,200 Speaker 1: they've been fired in or from a particular FIM, and 177 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:39,840 Speaker 1: if not, I could generate a potential list of fims 178 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 1: that could have been fired from. I want to take 179 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:49,320 Speaker 1: it back to April twenty sixteen. April twenty sixteen, at 180 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 1: some point where you asked to a damage some evidence 181 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 1: that have been collected as part of an investigation of 182 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 1: an eight person homicide in Pike count Yes, I was, 183 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:04,840 Speaker 1: And can you tell the jury how were you initially 184 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 1: brought into this case or asked to assist. My supervisors 185 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 1: notified us that there was a larger case that was 186 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 1: coming into the laboratory, and I just happened to be 187 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 1: the person selected to work the case at the time. 188 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:24,320 Speaker 1: Wait goes on to testify that he identified two types 189 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 1: of bullets at Chris Senior's home, thirty caliber bullets from 190 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 1: a high profiled rifle and forty caliber bullets from an 191 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 1: unknown firearm crime scene two the home of Frankie Rudin 192 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: and Hannah Hazel Gilly was a different story. Were several 193 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:44,440 Speaker 1: of the items that you examined from this scene shellcasings 194 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 1: had been recovered by the crime scene unit? Yes they were. Yes, 195 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:51,760 Speaker 1: this is one fired watching long rifle cartridge case. The 196 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:55,560 Speaker 1: fact that that cartridge has the name long rifle, does 197 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:57,960 Speaker 1: that mean that it has to be or can only 198 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 1: be fired out of a rifle? And I certainly not. 199 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:04,840 Speaker 1: A twenty long rifle cartridge is generic. It can be 200 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 1: fired in a pistol, a revolver, a rifle, any farm 201 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 1: that's designed to actually fire that specific cartridge. Were you 202 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 1: also asked to remaining items that came from seeing three? Yes, 203 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 1: I was. Was one of the items that you were 204 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:27,079 Speaker 1: asked to look at with respect to Scene three as shellcasing. 205 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:30,520 Speaker 1: That was our cartridge casing that was recovered from under 206 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 1: a crib in this residence. Yes, that's correct. This is 207 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 1: a fire twenty two long rifle cartridge case remicked in 208 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 1: brand with a rectangular wedge shaped firing pin. Impression. That 209 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:48,160 Speaker 1: item had the same general class characteristics as the shell 210 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 1: casings that you just testified to from scene two. Yes, 211 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:55,560 Speaker 1: that's correct, And again, are those consistent with the other 212 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 1: projectiles recovered in autopsy of the other victims of see 213 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:02,600 Speaker 1: three and the other victims of scene two. Yes, they 214 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 1: are Stephanie and Jeff. So we have two types of 215 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:11,960 Speaker 1: bullets found at the scene. We have thirty caliber high 216 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 1: powered rifle bullets and forty caliber bullets found in Chris 217 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:18,680 Speaker 1: Senior's home. And we know from Fortner's testimony last week 218 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 1: that the thirty calibers were sprayed from outside the trailer 219 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:23,480 Speaker 1: and the forties were found to have gone through the 220 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 1: floor and into the dirt below the home, so they 221 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 1: were shot inside. Now here's where it gets confusing, because 222 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 1: at Frankie and Dana Roden's homes they found twenty two 223 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 1: caliber bullets. Does that mean that whoever did this, whether 224 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 1: it's one person or many people, did they do that 225 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 1: by switching out guns mid murder scene? Or does that 226 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 1: mean they almost divided and conquered and that different family 227 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 1: members were using different guns, and that they were committing 228 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 1: these murders simultaneously. They moved on to crime scene for 229 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 1: Kenneth Roden's house. If you recall, there was only one 230 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 1: shot fired. Stay's Exhibit D two eighty two. You've already 231 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 1: opened her up. Do you recognize the markings on that package? Yes, 232 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 1: laboratory number, item number, and my initials, and were able 233 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:22,120 Speaker 1: to examine that item and reach any conclusion with respect 234 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 1: to brand and caliber associated with that Yes, I was 235 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 1: able to conclude this as a fired forty Smith and 236 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 1: Weston cartridge case hornity brand. Were you asked to make 237 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 1: some comparisons in this case to determine whether or not 238 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 1: certain pieces of evidence had been fired by the same 239 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 1: weapon that you've seen? Yes, I was. Were you able 240 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 1: to reach a conclusion to a reasonable degree of scientific 241 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: certainty as to whether or not the forty caliber shellcasing 242 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 1: at seam one was fired from the same firearm that 243 00:15:56,200 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 1: fired the forty caliber shellcasing that seemed four. Yes, on 244 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 1: my microscopic comparison examining the two fired forty Smith and 245 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 1: Wesson cartridge cases, I was able to conclude the two 246 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 1: fired forty Smith and Western cartridge cases had been fired 247 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 1: in the same fire. Media outlets jumped on the breaking 248 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 1: news today prosecutor's turn to the bullets used in all 249 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 1: eight murders. The casings included a forty caliber shell found 250 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 1: on Chris Senior's kitchen floor. He also showed the bullet's 251 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 1: retrieved from the victim's bodies. His testimony came after another 252 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 1: BCI agent walked through the crime scene where police found 253 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 1: Chris Senior's brother, Kenneth Roden, shot in his bed. Agents 254 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 1: also found a forty caliber shell in his bed. We're 255 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 1: going to take a break. We'll be back in a moment. 256 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 1: The next day, the prosecution picks up once again with 257 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 1: testimony for Matthew White. Andrew Wilson is intent on further 258 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 1: closing the loop on the physical ballistic evidence. In addition 259 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 1: to that information that you passed on to the investigators, 260 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 1: did you do further work or further analysis to try 261 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 1: to determine what kind of twenty two or what kind 262 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 1: of forty was involved in these homicides? Yes. Oftentimes, if 263 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:26,400 Speaker 1: I'm encountered evidence and there's no firearms submitted, I can 264 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:29,919 Speaker 1: look at certain features of the fire cartridge cases or 265 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:33,680 Speaker 1: the fired bullets to give a possible list of firearms 266 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 1: that could have fired them to aid investigators and what 267 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 1: they should be looking for. In the case of the 268 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 1: twenty two, he pinpoints the probable gun used. I was 269 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 1: able to examine other examples of test fires taken with 270 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:53,720 Speaker 1: Walter Cold nineteen eleven twenty two pistols. I was able 271 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:59,640 Speaker 1: to physically examine a couple different of the specific guns. 272 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 1: I was able to disassemble them, look at them, further, 273 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:08,440 Speaker 1: examine the firing pin itself, take additional test fires for comparison. 274 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:14,720 Speaker 1: In addition to that, I corresponded with a design engineer 275 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:19,679 Speaker 1: at Walter in Germany about the shape the orientation of 276 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:23,360 Speaker 1: the firing pin impression. He was able to look at 277 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:27,199 Speaker 1: some stock examples at the factory of farms that they 278 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:32,200 Speaker 1: were producing, and he agreed and concurred that the shape 279 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 1: of the fine pin impression and the orientation of it 280 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 1: was consistent with the farms that they produced the Walter 281 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:45,359 Speaker 1: cult nineteen eleven to twenty two pistols. In the case 282 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:47,920 Speaker 1: of the forty caliber, he pulls up an enlargement of 283 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 1: the bullet casing, pointing out marks around the base of it. 284 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:56,200 Speaker 1: You can see the fine pin impression itself. It's elliptical, 285 00:18:56,520 --> 00:19:01,959 Speaker 1: it is not circular in shape. Those two features are 286 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:09,199 Speaker 1: very common with glock firearms. So based on those observations, again, 287 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:13,399 Speaker 1: did you begin to feel that a block firearm or 288 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:17,760 Speaker 1: a forty col block was responsible for shooting the showcases 289 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:22,720 Speaker 1: recover from scene one in Zee four. Yes, the lock 290 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:27,159 Speaker 1: is by far the most common firearm encounter that has 291 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 1: those two characteristics. Next, the prosecution asks a key question 292 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 1: of light. But at that time, when you were doing 293 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:39,679 Speaker 1: your initial work in this case, did you have a 294 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 1: firearm that had been reflected as evidence to compare from 295 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 1: the scene or from a suspect. No, I did not 296 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:53,680 Speaker 1: to understand the recovery of the Wagner's firearms. Brian Scheiderer 297 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 1: is asked to step back and give the jury a 298 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:59,879 Speaker 1: big picture on how they began their investigation. Remember, at 299 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:03,120 Speaker 1: the time, BCI did not yet know the Wagoners were involved. 300 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:07,399 Speaker 1: Back to that very first day, you responded to the 301 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 1: Sheriff's office, you interviewed some people, then what happened? Then 302 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 1: what did you do? Things were still very confusing at 303 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 1: that time. There's a lot of information coming in as 304 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 1: you can expect. The media was on scene at the time, 305 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 1: so this had went statewide as well as national. So 306 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 1: eventually we went back to the piked in the police 307 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:31,640 Speaker 1: department and we tried to organize things. Like we knew 308 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 1: this was going to be in for the We're going 309 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:35,680 Speaker 1: to be in for the long haul on this. We're 310 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:38,120 Speaker 1: trying to say, here's what we had at the crime scenes, 311 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 1: here's what the families told us, and here's tips that 312 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:45,200 Speaker 1: are coming in. That's all happening extremely fast. Like it's overwhelming, 313 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:48,920 Speaker 1: it overloads you. It's coming in so fast. We also 314 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:52,200 Speaker 1: established a tip system because we had so many tips 315 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:55,359 Speaker 1: coming in. Ultimately, I believe we had eleven hundred and 316 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:57,960 Speaker 1: forty three tips that came in through the end of 317 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:01,359 Speaker 1: the investigations of the arrests, and even forty three of 318 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 1: those tips were investigated and cleared. And so how was 319 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:10,200 Speaker 1: that tip system established? They would mark the tip, it 320 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 1: would get assigned to an agent, and the agent would 321 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:17,199 Speaker 1: go out investigate the tip and respond back and report 322 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 1: his or her findings. At some point, they received a 323 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:25,920 Speaker 1: tip about the Wagner's collection of firearms. Here's Jeff speaking 324 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 1: with Mike Allen's law enforcement have to verify who sum 325 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:31,200 Speaker 1: the tip or does it not matter if it checks out? 326 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:33,920 Speaker 1: You mean, when the tip comes in, try to figure 327 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:35,760 Speaker 1: out who it is. Yeah, Like if they got a 328 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 1: tip that, oh, you should search this property because there 329 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 1: might be weapons there. If that tip checks out, does 330 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 1: it matter who called it? In in theory, wouldn't they 331 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:44,120 Speaker 1: want to track that person down because that's a good witness, 332 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 1: or they don't care. They probably would have to have 333 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 1: more than that. You know, they get a tip like that, 334 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:53,359 Speaker 1: they'd have to develop it somewhat, you know, just some 335 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:56,439 Speaker 1: Tom Dick or Harry calling and saying, hey, you know, 336 00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: I think there's a bunch of evidence and weapons down 337 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 1: there Joe Jones's house. The cops will have to have 338 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 1: more than that. You just use the term develop the tip. 339 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 1: I've never heard that. What does that mean? You know, 340 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:12,160 Speaker 1: perhaps try to find out whatever this witness said, maybe 341 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:15,439 Speaker 1: go to the place, check it out, maybe talk to 342 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 1: other people. I just think that would be very weak 343 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:20,320 Speaker 1: to go to a judge and ask for a search 344 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:24,479 Speaker 1: warrant just based on a completely anonymous tip that they 345 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:27,960 Speaker 1: would have to bolster that somehow it was enough to 346 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 1: get Warrens to search the wagoner's property. We also talked 347 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 1: about you seeking court orders for various phone records and 348 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:44,240 Speaker 1: Facebook records and any other records. Correct and can you 349 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 1: tell us kind of at what point did that start 350 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 1: to happen and what kinds of information were you receiving 351 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:53,919 Speaker 1: that led you to turn your attention to them. It 352 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 1: takes a long time to examine those things. You know, 353 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 1: many of those files are extremely large, several thousand pages. 354 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:04,400 Speaker 1: It is these electronic records that lead BCI to Jake 355 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 1: Wagner via social media post about custody of his and 356 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 1: Annime Roden's young child. When we first made contact with 357 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 1: Jake Wagner, he had indicated that everything was okay, that 358 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 1: he had a good relationship with Hannah, and there was 359 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 1: no issues involving their child that they shared together. So 360 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:27,359 Speaker 1: that was a little suspicious, moret a little further investigation, obviously, 361 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:30,920 Speaker 1: but we were also conducting interviews of friends and family 362 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:36,639 Speaker 1: who were reporting a similar situation. So you kind of 363 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,200 Speaker 1: have conflicting stories, right. You have one side that's saying 364 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:43,920 Speaker 1: everything's okay, and then you have records and family members 365 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 1: and friends that are saying that's not true. So that 366 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 1: kind of you know, you need to investigate that. That's important, 367 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,480 Speaker 1: that's a lead, that's something that needs to be ran down, 368 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 1: and so that's what we started to do. Did you 369 00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:01,959 Speaker 1: also look at Jake's from and did you find anything 370 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 1: of interest on that phone? Yes? And can you tell 371 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:10,400 Speaker 1: us what you thought? And again, these were expedited reviews 372 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 1: of these records. It wasn't like we had days to 373 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,640 Speaker 1: go through these. We literally downloaded these phones and started 374 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 1: going through quickly. But one of the most interesting things 375 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:23,159 Speaker 1: that we found on Jake's phone at that time was 376 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:25,639 Speaker 1: under the note section, and it was a list of 377 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:29,479 Speaker 1: guns owned by the Wagners or purported to be. So 378 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 1: basically there's a list with each Wagner's name and then 379 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 1: a list of guns underneath each of those names. At 380 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:37,720 Speaker 1: this point, the defense of Jacks and everyone approaches Judge 381 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:42,480 Speaker 1: Daring upon request, they consult briefly and during rules testimony 382 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:49,399 Speaker 1: can continue. Thank you, ronor Agent Schider, I'm going to 383 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:51,879 Speaker 1: show you what is going to be marked as states 384 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:56,440 Speaker 1: Exhibit HH two. Okay, and can you tell us first 385 00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 1: of all, Agent Schider, what are we looking at this again? 386 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 1: This is an extraction report or a snippet of an 387 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 1: extraction report related to Jake's iPhone that we took with 388 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 1: May of seventeen, and this was found in the notes 389 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:16,120 Speaker 1: section of the phone, and it is a list of 390 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:21,680 Speaker 1: firearms and associated Wagner names. Go through those and tell 391 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,639 Speaker 1: us which guns are listed belonging and belonging to do 392 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:28,159 Speaker 1: and what date was that list created pursuing to the 393 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,119 Speaker 1: report is I'm happy to trump to see you then, 394 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 1: February eleventh, twenty fifteen. Okay, thank you, and go ahead 395 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:42,919 Speaker 1: and tell us what guns are listed there? Starting at 396 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:48,680 Speaker 1: the top, the list starts with George's indicating possession, and 397 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:55,720 Speaker 1: it says Block seventeen nine milimeter, Bretta ninety six forty caliber, 398 00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:01,640 Speaker 1: Taurus Revolver three fifty seven, Remy five fourteen twenty two, 399 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:07,440 Speaker 1: Ruger M seventy seven, two seventy, Ruger M seventy seven, 400 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:12,879 Speaker 1: twenty two, Hornets Remington would Master thirty six, Ruger M 401 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 1: seventy seven twenty two, CZ twenty two and SKS seven 402 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:23,200 Speaker 1: point six y two by thirty nine. And who else 403 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:28,560 Speaker 1: is listed on that list? Mom's, dad's and Jake's. Okay, 404 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:31,000 Speaker 1: that is at the extent of the list. It was 405 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:34,119 Speaker 1: extracted from the phone belonging to Jake Wagner. Yes, but 406 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 1: you seize pursuing to research warrant. Yes, let's stop here 407 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 1: for another break. Here's Jeff speaking with Mike Allen. He 408 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:56,399 Speaker 1: pretty much figured out what the firearms were through the 409 00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:00,199 Speaker 1: obviously the help of the corner. What the what the 410 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:03,240 Speaker 1: rounds showed what kind of weapon they were fired from. 411 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 1: And you know, they got a real break on Jake's 412 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,040 Speaker 1: phone when they got the search warm for that and 413 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:14,159 Speaker 1: found on the notes portion just about every gun that 414 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 1: the family had, and it matched up. Again. That was 415 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 1: just good old fashioned police work, not a lot of 416 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:23,119 Speaker 1: technology in that. What do you make of Jake Wagner 417 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:28,399 Speaker 1: writing all this stuff down? Stupid? It was just stupid. 418 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:30,639 Speaker 1: Why would you do that? You know, in many ways, 419 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 1: I think he covered his tracks, or at least tried 420 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:37,440 Speaker 1: to cover his tracks pretty well, but it's just stupid. 421 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:39,800 Speaker 1: I guess he just wanted to keep track of what 422 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:43,320 Speaker 1: everybody had. In my goodness, you talk about an arsenal, 423 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:46,119 Speaker 1: they had just about any kind of weapon you can 424 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:48,520 Speaker 1: think of. I Wanting a lot of guns, though, does 425 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 1: not necessarily make you guilty of murderer. It definitely does 426 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:54,680 Speaker 1: not make you guilty of murder. But it's a piece 427 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,840 Speaker 1: of the puzzle, especially when two of the weapons that 428 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 1: he had on that list the type of weapons that 429 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 1: were used to commit these murners. When you can tie 430 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:08,399 Speaker 1: a weapon or weapons, you know, to a homicide, that's big. 431 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:11,879 Speaker 1: I mean, it's good evidence. The jury wants to hear that, 432 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:19,560 Speaker 1: so it's strong evidence. More on that next time, we're 433 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:22,680 Speaker 1: going to take a short break. The Pithon Massacre returns 434 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 1: with all new episodes starting Wednesday, January fourth, with Angela 435 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:30,760 Speaker 1: and Jake Wagner taking the stand. There's much more to 436 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:35,800 Speaker 1: uncover and the biggest bombshells are yet to come. Is 437 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,760 Speaker 1: at defense ready? Yes you wish to call a witness 438 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 1: at this time, then yes you are. We called George Wager. 439 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,760 Speaker 1: For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow 440 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:54,840 Speaker 1: us on Instagram at kat Underscore Studios. The Pithon Masker 441 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 1: is produced by Stephanie Leidecker, Jeff Shane, Scott de Graus, 442 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:04,400 Speaker 1: Andrew Arnow, Gabriel Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and 443 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 1: sound designed by Jeff Tooi music by Jared Aston. The 444 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 1: Piked and Masacar is a production of iHeart Radio and 445 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:15,200 Speaker 1: Katie Studios. For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit 446 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 1: the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 447 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows. Please welcome Markite County Dogged Festival. 448 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:30,080 Speaker 1: Queen Lord, I just thank you for bringing us all 449 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 1: together as a community. Okay, there's blood all over the house. 450 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 1: Who could have killed eight family members in one night. 451 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:46,120 Speaker 1: I lost my best friends and I will never be 452 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 1: the same because of that day. Four crime scenes, no DNA, 453 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:56,040 Speaker 1: no witnesses. The killer left those children laying in their 454 00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 1: mother's blood. The word that comes to my is overkilled. 455 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 1: Who was the last or month I'm telling you is 456 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 1: a framer. I'm not sitting in prison. One thing I learned, 457 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 1: the smaller the town, the bigger the sacreds. Be sure 458 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 1: to watch our upcoming documentary, The Pike County Murders of 459 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 1: Family Massacre, premiering on NBC Universal's Oxygen Network and also 460 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:28,760 Speaker 1: streaming on Peacock this Thanksgiving Day weekend November twenty fourth 461 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 1: and November twenty fifth. Please check your local listings and 462 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: our hearts are with the Rodents and the Gilly families.