WEBVTT - Spotlight on Mueller During Congressional Testimony

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. I'm June Grosso. Every

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<v Speaker 1>day we bring you insight and analysis into the most

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<v Speaker 1>important legal news of the day. You can find more

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<v Speaker 1>episodes of the Bloomberg Law Podcast on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud,

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<v Speaker 1>and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts. It took to subpoenas,

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<v Speaker 1>but the date has been set. On July seventeen, Special

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<v Speaker 1>Counsel Robert Mueller will testify in public before the House

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<v Speaker 1>Judiciary Committee and in a closed session before the House

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<v Speaker 1>Intelligence Committee, setting up one of the most dramatic hearings

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<v Speaker 1>of the Trump presidency. Joining me as former federal prosecutor

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<v Speaker 1>Ellie Honick, special counsel at Loewenstein Sandler, Ellie, how important

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<v Speaker 1>is Mueller's testimony? Can it live up to all the hype? Well,

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<v Speaker 1>it depends who you ask and who's doing the hyping. Um.

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<v Speaker 1>I do think Mueller's testimony is going to be hugely

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<v Speaker 1>important here. First of all, the vast majority of the

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<v Speaker 1>American poll book has certainly not read the Muller Report,

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<v Speaker 1>and I think doesn't even fully understand or know what's

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<v Speaker 1>in there. And I think that applies to some members

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<v Speaker 1>of Congress as well. Based on the public comments that

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<v Speaker 1>we've seen. So even if Muller just all he does

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<v Speaker 1>is get in front of Congress and read sections of

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<v Speaker 1>his report, I think that will have a major impact.

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<v Speaker 1>But I also think he's got serious questions to answer

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<v Speaker 1>beyond the four corners of his report. Let's talk about

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<v Speaker 1>some of those serious questions. What do you think he

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<v Speaker 1>will answer and what may he evade. So it's interesting

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<v Speaker 1>because when Mueller made his public statement a few weeks ago,

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<v Speaker 1>he said, I don't want to testify him. My report

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<v Speaker 1>is my testimony. And I know there's this mystique that's

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<v Speaker 1>sort of grown around Robert Muller. He's a very deeply

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<v Speaker 1>respected prosecutor and public official for good reason. But but

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<v Speaker 1>guess what. You don't get to just pick and choose

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<v Speaker 1>what you answer in response to a subpoena. You don't

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<v Speaker 1>get to just say, here's my report. That's all I'm saying.

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<v Speaker 1>You have to answer questions. Now, there are some legitimate exceptions.

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<v Speaker 1>I think it's perfectly legitimate for him to say that

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<v Speaker 1>relates to an ongoing criminal investigation that relates to a

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<v Speaker 1>sensitive national security issue. Those I think are fine, But

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<v Speaker 1>just saying i'd rather not is not a legitimate basis

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<v Speaker 1>to decline to answer. So look, I think the Congress

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<v Speaker 1>is I think the House is going to be asking

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<v Speaker 1>Mueller about some of the questions that he avoided. Would

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<v Speaker 1>you have charged the president if he was not the president?

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<v Speaker 1>Did you find enough evidence the charge obstruction if the

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<v Speaker 1>president was anybody other than the sitting president. That's a

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<v Speaker 1>hugely important question. I think he'll try to get around that,

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<v Speaker 1>but but I think it's a it's a very fair

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<v Speaker 1>question that needs to be asked now. As you know,

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<v Speaker 1>Trump and his team have raised claims of executive privilege

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<v Speaker 1>and something they call absolute immunity. Could they have a

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<v Speaker 1>Justice Department lawyers sitting there objecting to some of the questions.

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<v Speaker 1>Theoretically they could, and it will be interesting to see

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<v Speaker 1>how they play that. I don't think that they will

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<v Speaker 1>have a White House or d J lawyer sitting there

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<v Speaker 1>because it looks so bad. And if you if think

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<v Speaker 1>just to last week when Hope Pix got to testify

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<v Speaker 1>behind closed doors, there was there were administration lawyers who

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<v Speaker 1>objected about a hundred fifty five times. I think somebody

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<v Speaker 1>counted it up and effectively shut down her testimony easier

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<v Speaker 1>done behind closed doors, much more difficult to do in

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<v Speaker 1>front of the cameras when the whole nation's watching. It

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<v Speaker 1>looks obstructionists. Now, I think there's other ways the White

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<v Speaker 1>House may try to throw itself in front of this.

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<v Speaker 1>They may send a letter, They may try to go

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<v Speaker 1>to court and stop Mueller from testifying. But I don't

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<v Speaker 1>think they have any sort of legitimate legal basis to

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<v Speaker 1>do it. But they may figure, hey, why not let's

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<v Speaker 1>give it a shot. Any anything we can do to

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<v Speaker 1>get a chance to derail this they might take a

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<v Speaker 1>shot at. Now, the Republicans have already said that they're

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<v Speaker 1>going to cross examine Mueller about his alleged conflicts of interest,

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<v Speaker 1>and you can imagine the texts between Struck and Page

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<v Speaker 1>how will how will he do on across examination kind

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<v Speaker 1>of question? Well, so I think we're gonna see very

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<v Speaker 1>much of a ping pong match here. We're going to

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<v Speaker 1>see the Democrats wanting to focus on Russian interference, the

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<v Speaker 1>Pain's involvement, and obstruction of justice, and then we're gonna

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<v Speaker 1>want to see the Republicans, I think, focusing on the

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<v Speaker 1>things that you just talked about. Look, I think Mueller's

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<v Speaker 1>the only goal that Mueller should have and what I

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<v Speaker 1>used to tell witnesses all the time when I was

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<v Speaker 1>a prosecutor's just tell the truth. It's just just fact.

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<v Speaker 1>It's the easiest thing in the world. And I think

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<v Speaker 1>some of those lines of Republican questioning may bear a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit of fruit, and some I think will fall flat.

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<v Speaker 1>I think any suggestion that Mueller's impossibly conflicted and has

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<v Speaker 1>a grudge against the president because of unpaid greens fees

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<v Speaker 1>or something at one of the president's country clubs will

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<v Speaker 1>be ridiculous and will look ridiculous. I think on the

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<v Speaker 1>struct text, I imagine that mother will say these texts

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<v Speaker 1>were inappropriate, and Peter Struck was removed from the case

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<v Speaker 1>and he's been disciplined, and that had no impact on

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<v Speaker 1>any of the work we did. So um, I do

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<v Speaker 1>think that Republicans will try to score points that I

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<v Speaker 1>don't think there's really too much to be gained now.

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<v Speaker 1>Because of the mystique that you said that Robert Mueller has,

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<v Speaker 1>is it likely that he can avoid they can avoid

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<v Speaker 1>the circus like atmosphere that he may fear will happen

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<v Speaker 1>when the Republicans start asking some of these questions. I

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<v Speaker 1>don't think he's gonna be able to prevent Congress from

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<v Speaker 1>becoming a circus like atmosphere. Um. I think he's probably

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<v Speaker 1>better positioned than your average witness to to sort of

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<v Speaker 1>stand toe to toe with these representatives. I think your

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<v Speaker 1>average witness is probably quite intimidated to sit in the

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<v Speaker 1>well of that U. S. House of Representatives. But Robert

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<v Speaker 1>Mueller has testified in Congress dozens of times in his career.

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<v Speaker 1>He's a veteran at this, He's a military veteran as well,

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<v Speaker 1>So I don't think any of this will intimidate him

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<v Speaker 1>in the least. And I do think he'll be able

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<v Speaker 1>to sort of hold his own and maintain more control

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<v Speaker 1>than your average witness would. He's also testified to cross

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<v Speaker 1>examination like questions to some of the very Republicans that

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<v Speaker 1>are on the committee, so he has a little bit

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<v Speaker 1>of experience there now. Um. You know, we often talk

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<v Speaker 1>about how the Watergate hearings seem to shift public sentiment

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<v Speaker 1>in favor of impeachment of Nixon. Does Muller's testimony have

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<v Speaker 1>the same potential or not? Quite sure? I think it's

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<v Speaker 1>well yes and no. I think of all the witnesses

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<v Speaker 1>that that we've have been bandied about as as possibly testifying.

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<v Speaker 1>I think Mueller has the greatest potential to really change things.

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<v Speaker 1>And we've seen the slow incremental increase in the number

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<v Speaker 1>of members of Congress who are earned favor of an

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<v Speaker 1>impeachment inquiry, and we've seen slow upticks in public support

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<v Speaker 1>for that position, but it's still not at a critical

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<v Speaker 1>mass yet. And I think seeing and hearing Robert Mueller

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<v Speaker 1>testify um will be a real important visceral experience for

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<v Speaker 1>the American people. It's one thing to read the Muller Report,

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<v Speaker 1>It's one thing to hear uh to hear people talk

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<v Speaker 1>about it, but it's quite another thing to hear from

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<v Speaker 1>the person who actually made these pretty incredible findings of fact,

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<v Speaker 1>pretty astonishing findings of fact. On the other hand, I

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<v Speaker 1>don't think we're going to get any enormously new factual revelations.

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<v Speaker 1>For example, when John Deane testified, I don't think people

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<v Speaker 1>knew that he was going to implicate himself and the President.

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<v Speaker 1>I think that was all sort of brand new here.

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<v Speaker 1>I think we know the broad outlines of what Mueller found.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a it's a question of adding some color and

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<v Speaker 1>some detail to it and really deciphering Mueller's sort of

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<v Speaker 1>mysterious thought process and where he comes out legally. Just

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<v Speaker 1>about a minute here. What is the question that you

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<v Speaker 1>would ask if you were on the committee, Well, the

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<v Speaker 1>first question would be did you find enough evidence to

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<v Speaker 1>charge obstruction of justice? If not for this person being

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<v Speaker 1>the sitting president, I would want to know more about

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<v Speaker 1>about the ways in which Bar misrepresented Mueller's findings. Remember

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<v Speaker 1>Mueller sent that letter to Bar saying that that Barr

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<v Speaker 1>had misstated the substance, nature, and context of his findings. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>what did you mean by that in what specific ways?

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<v Speaker 1>I would also want to dig into the Russian contacts

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<v Speaker 1>that Mueller saw with the campaign and does he believe

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<v Speaker 1>criminal or not? Does he believe those contacts pose a

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<v Speaker 1>threat to national secure party? He certainly has the expertise

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<v Speaker 1>to answer that based on his time as FBI director.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you so much, Ellie, as always for your insight.

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<v Speaker 1>That's Ellie Honick for more Federal prosecutor and special counsel

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<v Speaker 1>at Loewenstein Sandler. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg Law podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>You can subscribe and listen to the show on Apple podcast, SoundCloud,

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<v Speaker 1>and on Bloomberg Dot com Slash Podcast. I'm June Brosso.

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<v Speaker 1>This is Bloomberg