1 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:07,560 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. I'm June Grosso. Every 2 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:10,440 Speaker 1: day we bring you insight and analysis into the most 3 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:13,399 Speaker 1: important legal news of the day. You can find more 4 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: episodes of the Bloomberg Law Podcast on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, 5 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:22,960 Speaker 1: and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts. It took to subpoenas, 6 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:25,960 Speaker 1: but the date has been set. On July seventeen, Special 7 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:29,080 Speaker 1: Counsel Robert Mueller will testify in public before the House 8 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:32,200 Speaker 1: Judiciary Committee and in a closed session before the House 9 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:35,920 Speaker 1: Intelligence Committee, setting up one of the most dramatic hearings 10 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 1: of the Trump presidency. Joining me as former federal prosecutor 11 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 1: Ellie Honick, special counsel at Loewenstein Sandler, Ellie, how important 12 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 1: is Mueller's testimony? Can it live up to all the hype? Well, 13 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:52,640 Speaker 1: it depends who you ask and who's doing the hyping. Um. 14 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 1: I do think Mueller's testimony is going to be hugely 15 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 1: important here. First of all, the vast majority of the 16 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 1: American poll book has certainly not read the Muller Report, 17 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 1: and I think doesn't even fully understand or know what's 18 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:06,919 Speaker 1: in there. And I think that applies to some members 19 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:09,000 Speaker 1: of Congress as well. Based on the public comments that 20 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 1: we've seen. So even if Muller just all he does 21 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:14,640 Speaker 1: is get in front of Congress and read sections of 22 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: his report, I think that will have a major impact. 23 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 1: But I also think he's got serious questions to answer 24 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:22,759 Speaker 1: beyond the four corners of his report. Let's talk about 25 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 1: some of those serious questions. What do you think he 26 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:32,120 Speaker 1: will answer and what may he evade. So it's interesting 27 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 1: because when Mueller made his public statement a few weeks ago, 28 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 1: he said, I don't want to testify him. My report 29 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:40,319 Speaker 1: is my testimony. And I know there's this mystique that's 30 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 1: sort of grown around Robert Muller. He's a very deeply 31 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:45,959 Speaker 1: respected prosecutor and public official for good reason. But but 32 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 1: guess what. You don't get to just pick and choose 33 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 1: what you answer in response to a subpoena. You don't 34 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 1: get to just say, here's my report. That's all I'm saying. 35 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 1: You have to answer questions. Now, there are some legitimate exceptions. 36 00:01:57,240 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 1: I think it's perfectly legitimate for him to say that 37 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 1: relates to an ongoing criminal investigation that relates to a 38 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 1: sensitive national security issue. Those I think are fine, But 39 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:10,359 Speaker 1: just saying i'd rather not is not a legitimate basis 40 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 1: to decline to answer. So look, I think the Congress 41 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 1: is I think the House is going to be asking 42 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 1: Mueller about some of the questions that he avoided. Would 43 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:21,240 Speaker 1: you have charged the president if he was not the president? 44 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:24,080 Speaker 1: Did you find enough evidence the charge obstruction if the 45 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 1: president was anybody other than the sitting president. That's a 46 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 1: hugely important question. I think he'll try to get around that, 47 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 1: but but I think it's a it's a very fair 48 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: question that needs to be asked now. As you know, 49 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 1: Trump and his team have raised claims of executive privilege 50 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 1: and something they call absolute immunity. Could they have a 51 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 1: Justice Department lawyers sitting there objecting to some of the questions. 52 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 1: Theoretically they could, and it will be interesting to see 53 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:54,399 Speaker 1: how they play that. I don't think that they will 54 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:57,239 Speaker 1: have a White House or d J lawyer sitting there 55 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 1: because it looks so bad. And if you if think 56 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:02,440 Speaker 1: just to last week when Hope Pix got to testify 57 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:05,639 Speaker 1: behind closed doors, there was there were administration lawyers who 58 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:08,079 Speaker 1: objected about a hundred fifty five times. I think somebody 59 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 1: counted it up and effectively shut down her testimony easier 60 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 1: done behind closed doors, much more difficult to do in 61 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 1: front of the cameras when the whole nation's watching. It 62 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 1: looks obstructionists. Now, I think there's other ways the White 63 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:21,360 Speaker 1: House may try to throw itself in front of this. 64 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:23,360 Speaker 1: They may send a letter, They may try to go 65 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 1: to court and stop Mueller from testifying. But I don't 66 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 1: think they have any sort of legitimate legal basis to 67 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:31,359 Speaker 1: do it. But they may figure, hey, why not let's 68 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 1: give it a shot. Any anything we can do to 69 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 1: get a chance to derail this they might take a 70 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 1: shot at. Now, the Republicans have already said that they're 71 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 1: going to cross examine Mueller about his alleged conflicts of interest, 72 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 1: and you can imagine the texts between Struck and Page 73 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 1: how will how will he do on across examination kind 74 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: of question? Well, so I think we're gonna see very 75 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 1: much of a ping pong match here. We're going to 76 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 1: see the Democrats wanting to focus on Russian interference, the 77 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 1: Pain's involvement, and obstruction of justice, and then we're gonna 78 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:05,640 Speaker 1: want to see the Republicans, I think, focusing on the 79 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 1: things that you just talked about. Look, I think Mueller's 80 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 1: the only goal that Mueller should have and what I 81 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 1: used to tell witnesses all the time when I was 82 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 1: a prosecutor's just tell the truth. It's just just fact. 83 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:16,719 Speaker 1: It's the easiest thing in the world. And I think 84 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 1: some of those lines of Republican questioning may bear a 85 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 1: little bit of fruit, and some I think will fall flat. 86 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 1: I think any suggestion that Mueller's impossibly conflicted and has 87 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 1: a grudge against the president because of unpaid greens fees 88 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 1: or something at one of the president's country clubs will 89 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:34,479 Speaker 1: be ridiculous and will look ridiculous. I think on the 90 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 1: struct text, I imagine that mother will say these texts 91 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 1: were inappropriate, and Peter Struck was removed from the case 92 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:44,359 Speaker 1: and he's been disciplined, and that had no impact on 93 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 1: any of the work we did. So um, I do 94 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 1: think that Republicans will try to score points that I 95 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 1: don't think there's really too much to be gained now. 96 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:56,039 Speaker 1: Because of the mystique that you said that Robert Mueller has, 97 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 1: is it likely that he can avoid they can avoid 98 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 1: the circus like atmosphere that he may fear will happen 99 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:10,359 Speaker 1: when the Republicans start asking some of these questions. I 100 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 1: don't think he's gonna be able to prevent Congress from 101 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 1: becoming a circus like atmosphere. Um. I think he's probably 102 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 1: better positioned than your average witness to to sort of 103 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 1: stand toe to toe with these representatives. I think your 104 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 1: average witness is probably quite intimidated to sit in the 105 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 1: well of that U. S. House of Representatives. But Robert 106 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:32,720 Speaker 1: Mueller has testified in Congress dozens of times in his career. 107 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 1: He's a veteran at this, He's a military veteran as well, 108 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 1: So I don't think any of this will intimidate him 109 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 1: in the least. And I do think he'll be able 110 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 1: to sort of hold his own and maintain more control 111 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 1: than your average witness would. He's also testified to cross 112 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 1: examination like questions to some of the very Republicans that 113 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 1: are on the committee, so he has a little bit 114 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 1: of experience there now. Um. You know, we often talk 115 00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 1: about how the Watergate hearings seem to shift public sentiment 116 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:06,279 Speaker 1: in favor of impeachment of Nixon. Does Muller's testimony have 117 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 1: the same potential or not? Quite sure? I think it's 118 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 1: well yes and no. I think of all the witnesses 119 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:16,799 Speaker 1: that that we've have been bandied about as as possibly testifying. 120 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 1: I think Mueller has the greatest potential to really change things. 121 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:23,599 Speaker 1: And we've seen the slow incremental increase in the number 122 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 1: of members of Congress who are earned favor of an 123 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 1: impeachment inquiry, and we've seen slow upticks in public support 124 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 1: for that position, but it's still not at a critical 125 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 1: mass yet. And I think seeing and hearing Robert Mueller 126 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 1: testify um will be a real important visceral experience for 127 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 1: the American people. It's one thing to read the Muller Report, 128 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 1: It's one thing to hear uh to hear people talk 129 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:48,160 Speaker 1: about it, but it's quite another thing to hear from 130 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:52,559 Speaker 1: the person who actually made these pretty incredible findings of fact, 131 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 1: pretty astonishing findings of fact. On the other hand, I 132 00:06:56,560 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 1: don't think we're going to get any enormously new factual revelations. 133 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:04,279 Speaker 1: For example, when John Deane testified, I don't think people 134 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: knew that he was going to implicate himself and the President. 135 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 1: I think that was all sort of brand new here. 136 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 1: I think we know the broad outlines of what Mueller found. 137 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 1: It's a it's a question of adding some color and 138 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 1: some detail to it and really deciphering Mueller's sort of 139 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 1: mysterious thought process and where he comes out legally. Just 140 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 1: about a minute here. What is the question that you 141 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 1: would ask if you were on the committee, Well, the 142 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 1: first question would be did you find enough evidence to 143 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: charge obstruction of justice? If not for this person being 144 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 1: the sitting president, I would want to know more about 145 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 1: about the ways in which Bar misrepresented Mueller's findings. Remember 146 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 1: Mueller sent that letter to Bar saying that that Barr 147 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 1: had misstated the substance, nature, and context of his findings. Well, 148 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: what did you mean by that in what specific ways? 149 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 1: I would also want to dig into the Russian contacts 150 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 1: that Mueller saw with the campaign and does he believe 151 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 1: criminal or not? Does he believe those contacts pose a 152 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 1: threat to national secure party? He certainly has the expertise 153 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 1: to answer that based on his time as FBI director. 154 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Ellie, as always for your insight. 155 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 1: That's Ellie Honick for more Federal prosecutor and special counsel 156 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 1: at Loewenstein Sandler. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg Law podcast. 157 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 1: You can subscribe and listen to the show on Apple podcast, SoundCloud, 158 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 1: and on Bloomberg Dot com Slash Podcast. I'm June Brosso. 159 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg