WEBVTT - US Interior Secretary Doug Burgum Talks Coal Plants, Tariff Impact

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.

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<v Speaker 2>US Interior Secretary Doug Bergham speaks with Bloomberg's Alex Steele

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<v Speaker 2>at Sarah Weekend Houston. They discussed the need to keep

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<v Speaker 2>coal plants open, gas prices down, and the impact of

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<v Speaker 2>tariffs on energy production.

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<v Speaker 3>Mister Secretary, the unleashing of energy of power?

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<v Speaker 4>What is that? What does that look like? From the

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<v Speaker 4>Interior Department?

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<v Speaker 5>Well, both from Interior, but also I have an opportunity

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<v Speaker 5>to wear two hats in this administration as also as

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<v Speaker 5>the chairman of the National Energy Dominance Council that President

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<v Speaker 5>Trump created by executive order, which contains most of the

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<v Speaker 5>members of the Cabinet Vice chair Chris Wright, and I

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<v Speaker 5>would say what it looks like is it's the unleashing.

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<v Speaker 5>Is is exactly that? I mean, it's cutting through all

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<v Speaker 5>the red tape. We've just come off of four years

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<v Speaker 5>where the Biden administration had a hole of government attack

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<v Speaker 5>US energy, and we're trying to turn that ship one

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<v Speaker 5>hundred and eighty degrees in the other direction and be

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<v Speaker 5>win at the back of US energy as opposed to

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<v Speaker 5>a gale force wind in their face.

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<v Speaker 4>What do you where are you able to do.

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<v Speaker 3>What is your red tape that you can now cut.

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<v Speaker 3>What can the Department of Energy Interior do to that?

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<v Speaker 5>Well, again, going back to the National Energy Dominance Council,

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<v Speaker 5>part of what President Trump fully understands is with this

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<v Speaker 5>whole of government attack that the Biden administration had on energy.

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<v Speaker 5>There was sec rules, there was Army Corps of engineers,

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<v Speaker 5>there was you know, the weaponizing of certain laws like

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<v Speaker 5>US Fish and Wildlife's Endangered Species Act. I mean, all

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<v Speaker 5>of these things coming from different angles. And so we've

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<v Speaker 5>got all the cabinet leaders that are on that, on

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<v Speaker 5>this council to help us unleash it.

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<v Speaker 1>And if we're going to.

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<v Speaker 5>Put sanctions on an adversary like around, we've got the

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<v Speaker 5>State Department, the Treasury Department, they're on there.

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<v Speaker 1>They'll make sure those are enforced.

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<v Speaker 5>We've got Brooke Rollins from USDA because bio fuels plays

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<v Speaker 5>point this, and of course Chris Wright, our fabulous new

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<v Speaker 5>Secretary of Energy and all of the things that are

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<v Speaker 5>going there. And this is not just liquid fuels, this

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<v Speaker 5>is also electricity. And part of the reason why President

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<v Speaker 5>Trump declared a National Energy Emergency on day one is

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<v Speaker 5>because the decisions to tilt so in favor of unreliable, expensive,

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<v Speaker 5>intermittent sources for electricity has put our grid at risk

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<v Speaker 5>at a time when we need to have more electricity

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<v Speaker 5>to be able to win the AI arms race against China.

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<v Speaker 4>That's to unpack there.

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<v Speaker 3>So let's go where you took it, which is alternative energy,

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<v Speaker 3>and one of that is offshore WIN. You've been reviewing

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<v Speaker 3>offshore WIN in terms of the existing leases that have

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<v Speaker 3>already been doled out. Are you any closer to deciding

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<v Speaker 3>if those companies and those projects get.

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<v Speaker 4>To keep the leases.

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<v Speaker 5>They're all under review and including onshore WIN is also interview,

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<v Speaker 5>not just offshore, but we're starting with the offshore WIN

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<v Speaker 5>because of course that's sometimes three times is expensive and

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<v Speaker 5>part of what our goal here for Americans is to

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<v Speaker 5>have lower cost, affordable, reliable energy.

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<v Speaker 1>Right.

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<v Speaker 3>But if the company already has say, power purchase agreements,

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<v Speaker 3>and they already have their contracts lined up and their

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<v Speaker 3>permit being lined up, why would you take that away?

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<v Speaker 5>Well, I think we again, that's part of the review.

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<v Speaker 5>We've been instructed by an EO to take a look

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<v Speaker 5>at all of that. But in some cases, if we've

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<v Speaker 5>gone so far out of balance in certain of these

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<v Speaker 5>rtos regional transmission organizations where we've got too much renewable

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<v Speaker 5>and not enough baseload in that that's part of what's

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<v Speaker 5>putting the grid at risk, and we've got to make

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<v Speaker 5>sure that we've got the right balance.

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<v Speaker 4>Okay, so when do you think the review will be completed.

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<v Speaker 1>We've got an open end on this thing.

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<v Speaker 5>We're going to make sure we do a thorough job

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<v Speaker 5>on reviewing those projects that are underway.

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<v Speaker 4>Well we switch them to other forms.

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<v Speaker 3>A big part of this is going to be obviously

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<v Speaker 3>permitting and be able to move the energy, whether or

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<v Speaker 3>not it's a liquid form, whether or not it's just power.

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<v Speaker 3>If I'm a company and I'm looking at what the

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<v Speaker 3>administration is trying to do, what's the confidence level that

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<v Speaker 3>all of this permitting, legal issues, putting pipes in the

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<v Speaker 3>ground can be done in four years.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, it has to be done sooner than that.

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<v Speaker 4>Usually it's like twenty sometimes for a pipeline.

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<v Speaker 5>Right, Well, those days have to be over because if

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<v Speaker 5>you've got a national energy emergency, we've got to figure

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<v Speaker 5>out a way to actually deliver. In this case, one

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<v Speaker 5>of the things we got to be able to do

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<v Speaker 5>is we've got to be able to deliver low cost,

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<v Speaker 5>clean US natural gas to all.

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<v Speaker 1>Corners of the lower forty eight.

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<v Speaker 5>I mean, we've got a situation now where we've got

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<v Speaker 5>New England states that might be gas prices there might

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<v Speaker 5>be four times higher than Pennsylvania because we can't complete

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<v Speaker 5>one hundred and twenty four mile pipeline across the state

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<v Speaker 5>of New York. So again, if you're in a national

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<v Speaker 5>energy emergency. At the time of the Russian invasion of Ukraine,

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<v Speaker 5>we were offloading four hundred thousand barrels of oil a

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<v Speaker 5>day of thirty Russian heating oil into New England. I mean,

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<v Speaker 5>eighty percent of the people in the state of Maine

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<v Speaker 5>and forty percent of the people in New Hampshire are

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<v Speaker 5>still heating their homes with heating oil. We can do

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<v Speaker 5>better than that for these citizens. They ought to have

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<v Speaker 5>the same right and the same access to LNG that

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<v Speaker 5>someone does in North Dakota, Pennsylvania or Texas. Well.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, and when I talk to any the company, whether

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<v Speaker 3>it's a pipeline company, an oil company, and gas company,

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<v Speaker 3>everyone feels uncertain, like they don't know where tariffs are

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<v Speaker 3>going to land. They don't have clarity on certain policies.

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<v Speaker 3>They don't have clarity from all the departments, so they

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<v Speaker 3>don't want to make a decision yet. How can you

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<v Speaker 3>give them that clarity.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, tariff's is a separate bucket.

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<v Speaker 5>But part of what we're talking about on building linear

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<v Speaker 5>infrastructure in this country is really a regulatory well, because.

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<v Speaker 3>If I'm going to build a pipeline, I got to

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<v Speaker 3>get the steal an aluminum.

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<v Speaker 4>And that's more expensive.

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<v Speaker 5>Yes, but we should also understand the core principles of tariffs.

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<v Speaker 5>At President Trump, he's been very very consistent, which is

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<v Speaker 5>if a country has got a high barrier in their

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<v Speaker 5>country for the importing into their country of US goods,

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<v Speaker 5>he wants to have reciprocity. And so people can take

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<v Speaker 5>a look, the United States is not going to be

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<v Speaker 5>needlessly or without cause putting tariffs on stuff coming to

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<v Speaker 5>our country unless that other country has also got a

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<v Speaker 5>closed market. And also the other thing that President Trump

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<v Speaker 5>said he's been looking at as he's looking at the

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<v Speaker 5>trade balances, and one of the ways that a country

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<v Speaker 5>can level their trade balance with the US is to

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<v Speaker 5>buy more US energy. And the way we buy more

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<v Speaker 5>US energy is we build those export tournables, removing of

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<v Speaker 5>the Biden export van or the pause on export facilities

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<v Speaker 5>for LNG. I mean, Chris Wright and I were in

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<v Speaker 5>Louisiana last Thursday, six thousand American workers in hard hats

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<v Speaker 5>that wouldn't be working today on an eighteen billion dollar

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<v Speaker 5>expansion if that permit and that ban had not been reversed.

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<v Speaker 5>So we're providing all kinds of certainty in this market

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<v Speaker 5>to people to know that this is a pro business,

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<v Speaker 5>pro energy, pro USA administration and that we need all

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<v Speaker 5>forms of energy to help us drive forward.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, you're being a ventro global and the expansion there

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<v Speaker 3>in the Gulf Coast. Speaking of though, in terms of

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<v Speaker 3>oil and gas leases, for example, if workers who actually

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<v Speaker 3>approve leases are being let go or if feeling Musk

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<v Speaker 3>is targeting them for doughs.

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<v Speaker 4>Does that make your job harder? Well, get those leases

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<v Speaker 4>done well.

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<v Speaker 5>First of all, the has been clarified by the President

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<v Speaker 5>that each Cabinet sectary is in charge of their downsizing

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<v Speaker 5>efforts within their agency, and we welcome the support and

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<v Speaker 5>help of the additional resources of a DOGE team that's

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<v Speaker 5>digging in and looking really for on the cost side.

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<v Speaker 4>So you have had to lay off anybody, we've.

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<v Speaker 1>Made a decision. Not had to, but we've made a decision.

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<v Speaker 5>I mean there's I mean, obviously we've got a right

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<v Speaker 5>sized government. It's not it's bad for the interest rate markets,

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<v Speaker 5>is bad for the world, it's bad for every American,

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<v Speaker 5>it's bad for future generations. If we think that it's

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<v Speaker 5>sustainable to spend two trillion dollars more, two thousand billion

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<v Speaker 5>a years.

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<v Speaker 1>Extra is what we spent last year.

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<v Speaker 5>So I mean, the vision is we've got to drive

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<v Speaker 5>revenue up, and we got to drive additional one trillion

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<v Speaker 5>of revenue, additional one trillion cost savings is the path

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<v Speaker 5>to a balance budget. Well, the Interior Department, we've got

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<v Speaker 5>the biggest balance sheet in the world. Five hundred million

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<v Speaker 5>acres of land, seven hundred million acres of sub service,

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<v Speaker 5>two billion acres of offshore acreage. All of that's got

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<v Speaker 5>revenue possibility, and not just an oil and gas but

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<v Speaker 5>timber and grazing leases, and the under the Biden administration,

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<v Speaker 5>the revenue in Interior was on a decline. If this

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<v Speaker 5>was if Interior was a hedge fund, it would be

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<v Speaker 5>the largest balance sheet in the world, and we would

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<v Speaker 5>have the poorest returns of any company in the world.

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<v Speaker 5>I mean this is this is a turnaround opportunity for

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<v Speaker 5>us to drive revenue up. We want to make sure

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<v Speaker 5>anybody that's involved in getting permits done they need to stay.

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<v Speaker 1>People who've been involved in.

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<v Speaker 5>Blocking permits are people who've been participating in illegally not

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<v Speaker 5>holding the required lease auctions that are required by law.

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<v Speaker 1>They probably don't need to stay.

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<v Speaker 4>Okay, that's good clarity.

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<v Speaker 3>So let's pivot just before we let you go to

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<v Speaker 3>say coal and nuclear and steps to be taken to

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<v Speaker 3>prolong the life of coal plants and nuclear plants, which clearly,

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<v Speaker 3>if you're above all energy, you're going to need those.

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<v Speaker 4>Where are we in that right now?

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<v Speaker 1>Well?

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<v Speaker 5>Absolutely, We've got two sources of baseload that have been

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<v Speaker 5>neglected and sometimes demonized, and that's coal and nuclear. And

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<v Speaker 5>if there's a coal plant still running in the US,

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<v Speaker 5>it's among the cleanest in the world. And China last

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<v Speaker 5>year opened up a hundred gigawatts of new coal. India

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<v Speaker 5>on a similar track. They understand that we've got billions

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<v Speaker 5>of people that don't even yet have electricity in China

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<v Speaker 5>in particular, understands they need baseload to be.

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<v Speaker 1>Able to win the AI arms race.

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<v Speaker 5>They're also got thirty new their plants under construction and

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<v Speaker 5>they're spending hundreds of billions of dollars on hydro.

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<v Speaker 1>So in the US we've fallen behind on energy production.

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<v Speaker 5>Now we've got real demand from people that are willing

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<v Speaker 5>to pay for and that's the hyperscalers. The five big

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<v Speaker 5>tech companies have a three hundred billion dollar capex budget.

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<v Speaker 1>This is the largest.

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<v Speaker 5>Their capex budget is bigger than oil and gas, bigger

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<v Speaker 5>than automotive, bigger than steel, bigger than any other industry.

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<v Speaker 1>And what they want to spend it on is they.

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<v Speaker 5>Need electricity to drive that because this is not ANAI

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<v Speaker 5>data center.

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<v Speaker 1>Is not like, oh, we're going to process healthcare claims.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean that's important work. It's just business back office processing.

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<v Speaker 5>In an AI data center, you're actually manufacturing intelligence, and

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<v Speaker 5>that intelligence now becomes the highest value product we've ever

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<v Speaker 5>created with electricity since electricity was invented.

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<v Speaker 1>So the demand for that is going to be real.

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<v Speaker 5>We've gone through decades of almost no demand increase. The

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<v Speaker 5>entire time that I was in tech, we used one

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<v Speaker 5>percent of the nation's electricity, even as the tech sector

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<v Speaker 5>was growing. Because everything was becoming more efficient now we're

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<v Speaker 5>in a spot where we've got real demand growth. We've

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<v Speaker 5>got to meet that demand growth, and we've got to

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<v Speaker 5>meet it with reliable, affordable baseloads.

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<v Speaker 3>And that's not even the entering part, the inference part

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<v Speaker 3>of it, which is going to be even more so.

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<v Speaker 3>What's the mechanism that you guys can use to keep

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<v Speaker 3>the coal plant open longer, the nuclear site open longer.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, we can.

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<v Speaker 5>First we can stop death by regulation, and part of

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<v Speaker 5>that we can do by taking a close look at

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<v Speaker 5>the actual legality of some of the rule making that

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<v Speaker 5>was perpetrated against these these industries. And I think as

0:11:41.920 --> 0:11:44.440
<v Speaker 5>part of under the National Energy Emergency, which President Trump

0:11:44.480 --> 0:11:47.079
<v Speaker 5>has declared, we've got to keep every coal plant open,

0:11:47.920 --> 0:11:50.560
<v Speaker 5>and we've got to and if there have been units

0:11:50.559 --> 0:11:52.240
<v Speaker 5>had a coal plant that have been shut down, we

0:11:52.280 --> 0:11:54.320
<v Speaker 5>need to bring those back on, not just when it's

0:11:54.880 --> 0:11:56.000
<v Speaker 5>zero degrees.

0:11:55.679 --> 0:11:56.480
<v Speaker 1>Or twenty below.

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<v Speaker 5>I mean, we've had days On the day that President

0:11:58.520 --> 0:12:05.000
<v Speaker 5>Trump was a NAUGA in the entire PGAM market, which

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<v Speaker 5>is thirteen states from New York to Virginia, five AM

0:12:08.400 --> 0:12:10.599
<v Speaker 5>of January twentieth was the highest peak load for the

0:12:10.640 --> 0:12:13.400
<v Speaker 5>winner zero from solar because it was five am.

0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:14.120
<v Speaker 1>It was dark out.

0:12:14.360 --> 0:12:19.600
<v Speaker 5>Two percent from wind, seventy percent from fossil fuels, twenty

0:12:19.640 --> 0:12:20.800
<v Speaker 5>two percent from nuclear.

0:12:21.040 --> 0:12:23.000
<v Speaker 1>So if somebody says, hey, we don't need.

0:12:22.840 --> 0:12:26.200
<v Speaker 5>Fossil fuels or nuclear, it was providing over ninety percent

0:12:26.280 --> 0:12:29.640
<v Speaker 5>of the power on that particular day for some of

0:12:29.679 --> 0:12:32.160
<v Speaker 5>our most populous areas. I mean, the only thing would

0:12:32.160 --> 0:12:34.000
<v Speaker 5>be running would have been a hospital with a diesel

0:12:34.080 --> 0:12:37.600
<v Speaker 5>generator if you didn't have based load fossil fuels.

0:12:37.800 --> 0:12:39.920
<v Speaker 1>We're not in a period of energy transition.

0:12:40.080 --> 0:12:42.319
<v Speaker 5>That is one of the big lives of the climate

0:12:42.360 --> 0:12:43.960
<v Speaker 5>extremists is energy transition.

0:12:44.240 --> 0:12:45.920
<v Speaker 1>We're in a period of energy audition.

0:12:46.000 --> 0:12:48.520
<v Speaker 5>We need addition for the billions of people that don't

0:12:48.520 --> 0:12:51.520
<v Speaker 5>have electricity, We need additions for AI, we need additions

0:12:51.559 --> 0:12:53.760
<v Speaker 5>in supply to keep the prices down. And if we

0:12:53.800 --> 0:12:57.280
<v Speaker 5>want to bring manufacturing back to the United States and

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<v Speaker 5>reindustrialize our nation and not make the mistake that Germany

0:13:00.960 --> 0:13:05.400
<v Speaker 5>and the UK are making right now deindustrializing with electric

0:13:05.600 --> 0:13:08.280
<v Speaker 5>electric prices in Germany or triple what they are here

0:13:08.320 --> 0:13:09.280
<v Speaker 5>in the United States.

0:13:10.080 --> 0:13:11.439
<v Speaker 1>And so we're on.

0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:14.800
<v Speaker 5>A path under President Trump to reindustrialize the US, bring

0:13:14.840 --> 0:13:17.000
<v Speaker 5>manufacturing home, bring investment back, and it's working.

0:13:17.000 --> 0:13:18.000
<v Speaker 1>Look one point.

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<v Speaker 5>Seven trillion dollars of capital flowing back to the US

0:13:21.440 --> 0:13:24.120
<v Speaker 5>in the last six weeks because they know we're committed

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<v Speaker 5>to a policy of providing abundant, reliable, low cost energy

0:13:29.200 --> 0:13:29.760
<v Speaker 5>a TVD.

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<v Speaker 3>IF that includes solar and onshore and offshore wind, well,

0:13:33.559 --> 0:13:36.559
<v Speaker 3>I think that those are We know that offshore wind,

0:13:36.559 --> 0:13:39.640
<v Speaker 3>for sure, is three times as expensive and it's intermittent.

0:13:39.880 --> 0:13:42.600
<v Speaker 5>So if you're trying for reliable and affordable, it wouldn't

0:13:42.600 --> 0:13:43.959
<v Speaker 5>meet either of those criteria.

0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:48.640
<v Speaker 2>US Interior Secretary Doug Bergham speaking with Bloomberg Zalx Steel

0:13:48.720 --> 0:13:50.679
<v Speaker 2>at Sarawek in Houston,