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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.

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Speaker 2: US Interior Secretary Doug Bergham speaks with Bloomberg's Alex Steele

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Speaker 2: at Sarah Weekend Houston. They discussed the need to keep

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Speaker 2: coal plants open, gas prices down, and the impact of

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Speaker 2: tariffs on energy production.

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Speaker 3: Mister Secretary, the unleashing of energy of power?

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Speaker 4: What is that? What does that look like? From the

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Speaker 4: Interior Department?

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Speaker 5: Well, both from Interior, but also I have an opportunity

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Speaker 5: to wear two hats in this administration as also as

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Speaker 5: the chairman of the National Energy Dominance Council that President

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Speaker 5: Trump created by executive order, which contains most of the

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Speaker 5: members of the Cabinet Vice chair Chris Wright, and I

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Speaker 5: would say what it looks like is it's the unleashing.

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Speaker 5: Is is exactly that? I mean, it's cutting through all

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Speaker 5: the red tape. We've just come off of four years

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Speaker 5: where the Biden administration had a hole of government attack

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Speaker 5: US energy, and we're trying to turn that ship one

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Speaker 5: hundred and eighty degrees in the other direction and be

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Speaker 5: win at the back of US energy as opposed to

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Speaker 5: a gale force wind in their face.

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Speaker 4: What do you where are you able to do.

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Speaker 3: What is your red tape that you can now cut.

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Speaker 3: What can the Department of Energy Interior do to that?

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Speaker 5: Well, again, going back to the National Energy Dominance Council,

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Speaker 5: part of what President Trump fully understands is with this

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Speaker 5: whole of government attack that the Biden administration had on energy.

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Speaker 5: There was sec rules, there was Army Corps of engineers,

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Speaker 5: there was you know, the weaponizing of certain laws like

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Speaker 5: US Fish and Wildlife's Endangered Species Act. I mean, all

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Speaker 5: of these things coming from different angles. And so we've

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Speaker 5: got all the cabinet leaders that are on that, on

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Speaker 5: this council to help us unleash it.

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Speaker 1: And if we're going to.

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Speaker 5: Put sanctions on an adversary like around, we've got the

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Speaker 5: State Department, the Treasury Department, they're on there.

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Speaker 1: They'll make sure those are enforced.

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Speaker 5: We've got Brooke Rollins from USDA because bio fuels plays

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Speaker 5: point this, and of course Chris Wright, our fabulous new

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Speaker 5: Secretary of Energy and all of the things that are

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Speaker 5: going there. And this is not just liquid fuels, this

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Speaker 5: is also electricity. And part of the reason why President

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Speaker 5: Trump declared a National Energy Emergency on day one is

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Speaker 5: because the decisions to tilt so in favor of unreliable, expensive,

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Speaker 5: intermittent sources for electricity has put our grid at risk

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Speaker 5: at a time when we need to have more electricity

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Speaker 5: to be able to win the AI arms race against China.

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Speaker 4: That's to unpack there.

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Speaker 3: So let's go where you took it, which is alternative energy,

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Speaker 3: and one of that is offshore WIN. You've been reviewing

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Speaker 3: offshore WIN in terms of the existing leases that have

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Speaker 3: already been doled out. Are you any closer to deciding

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Speaker 3: if those companies and those projects get.

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Speaker 4: To keep the leases.

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Speaker 5: They're all under review and including onshore WIN is also interview,

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Speaker 5: not just offshore, but we're starting with the offshore WIN

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Speaker 5: because of course that's sometimes three times is expensive and

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Speaker 5: part of what our goal here for Americans is to

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Speaker 5: have lower cost, affordable, reliable energy.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 3: But if the company already has say, power purchase agreements,

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Speaker 3: and they already have their contracts lined up and their

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Speaker 3: permit being lined up, why would you take that away?

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Speaker 5: Well, I think we again, that's part of the review.

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Speaker 5: We've been instructed by an EO to take a look

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Speaker 5: at all of that. But in some cases, if we've

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Speaker 5: gone so far out of balance in certain of these

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Speaker 5: rtos regional transmission organizations where we've got too much renewable

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Speaker 5: and not enough baseload in that that's part of what's

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Speaker 5: putting the grid at risk, and we've got to make

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Speaker 5: sure that we've got the right balance.

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Speaker 4: Okay, so when do you think the review will be completed.

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Speaker 1: We've got an open end on this thing.

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Speaker 5: We're going to make sure we do a thorough job

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Speaker 5: on reviewing those projects that are underway.

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Speaker 4: Well we switch them to other forms.

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Speaker 3: A big part of this is going to be obviously

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Speaker 3: permitting and be able to move the energy, whether or

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Speaker 3: not it's a liquid form, whether or not it's just power.

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Speaker 3: If I'm a company and I'm looking at what the

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Speaker 3: administration is trying to do, what's the confidence level that

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Speaker 3: all of this permitting, legal issues, putting pipes in the

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Speaker 3: ground can be done in four years.

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Speaker 1: Well, it has to be done sooner than that.

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Speaker 4: Usually it's like twenty sometimes for a pipeline.

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Speaker 5: Right, Well, those days have to be over because if

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Speaker 5: you've got a national energy emergency, we've got to figure

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Speaker 5: out a way to actually deliver. In this case, one

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Speaker 5: of the things we got to be able to do

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Speaker 5: is we've got to be able to deliver low cost,

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Speaker 5: clean US natural gas to all.

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Speaker 1: Corners of the lower forty eight.

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Speaker 5: I mean, we've got a situation now where we've got

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Speaker 5: New England states that might be gas prices there might

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Speaker 5: be four times higher than Pennsylvania because we can't complete

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Speaker 5: one hundred and twenty four mile pipeline across the state

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Speaker 5: of New York. So again, if you're in a national

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Speaker 5: energy emergency. At the time of the Russian invasion of Ukraine,

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Speaker 5: we were offloading four hundred thousand barrels of oil a

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Speaker 5: day of thirty Russian heating oil into New England. I mean,

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Speaker 5: eighty percent of the people in the state of Maine

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Speaker 5: and forty percent of the people in New Hampshire are

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Speaker 5: still heating their homes with heating oil. We can do

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Speaker 5: better than that for these citizens. They ought to have

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Speaker 5: the same right and the same access to LNG that

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Speaker 5: someone does in North Dakota, Pennsylvania or Texas. Well.

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Speaker 3: Yes, and when I talk to any the company, whether

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Speaker 3: it's a pipeline company, an oil company, and gas company,

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Speaker 3: everyone feels uncertain, like they don't know where tariffs are

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Speaker 3: going to land. They don't have clarity on certain policies.

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Speaker 3: They don't have clarity from all the departments, so they

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Speaker 3: don't want to make a decision yet. How can you

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Speaker 3: give them that clarity.

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Speaker 1: Well, tariff's is a separate bucket.

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Speaker 5: But part of what we're talking about on building linear

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Speaker 5: infrastructure in this country is really a regulatory well, because.

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Speaker 3: If I'm going to build a pipeline, I got to

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Speaker 3: get the steal an aluminum.

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Speaker 4: And that's more expensive.

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Speaker 5: Yes, but we should also understand the core principles of tariffs.

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Speaker 5: At President Trump, he's been very very consistent, which is

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Speaker 5: if a country has got a high barrier in their

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Speaker 5: country for the importing into their country of US goods,

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Speaker 5: he wants to have reciprocity. And so people can take

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Speaker 5: a look, the United States is not going to be

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Speaker 5: needlessly or without cause putting tariffs on stuff coming to

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Speaker 5: our country unless that other country has also got a

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Speaker 5: closed market. And also the other thing that President Trump

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Speaker 5: said he's been looking at as he's looking at the

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Speaker 5: trade balances, and one of the ways that a country

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Speaker 5: can level their trade balance with the US is to

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Speaker 5: buy more US energy. And the way we buy more

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Speaker 5: US energy is we build those export tournables, removing of

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Speaker 5: the Biden export van or the pause on export facilities

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Speaker 5: for LNG. I mean, Chris Wright and I were in

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Speaker 5: Louisiana last Thursday, six thousand American workers in hard hats

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Speaker 5: that wouldn't be working today on an eighteen billion dollar

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Speaker 5: expansion if that permit and that ban had not been reversed.

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Speaker 5: So we're providing all kinds of certainty in this market

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Speaker 5: to people to know that this is a pro business,

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Speaker 5: pro energy, pro USA administration and that we need all

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Speaker 5: forms of energy to help us drive forward.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you're being a ventro global and the expansion there

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Speaker 3: in the Gulf Coast. Speaking of though, in terms of

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Speaker 3: oil and gas leases, for example, if workers who actually

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Speaker 3: approve leases are being let go or if feeling Musk

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Speaker 3: is targeting them for doughs.

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Speaker 4: Does that make your job harder? Well, get those leases

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Speaker 4: done well.

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Speaker 5: First of all, the has been clarified by the President

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Speaker 5: that each Cabinet sectary is in charge of their downsizing

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Speaker 5: efforts within their agency, and we welcome the support and

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Speaker 5: help of the additional resources of a DOGE team that's

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Speaker 5: digging in and looking really for on the cost side.

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Speaker 4: So you have had to lay off anybody, we've.

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Speaker 1: Made a decision. Not had to, but we've made a decision.

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Speaker 5: I mean there's I mean, obviously we've got a right

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Speaker 5: sized government. It's not it's bad for the interest rate markets,

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Speaker 5: is bad for the world, it's bad for every American,

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Speaker 5: it's bad for future generations. If we think that it's

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Speaker 5: sustainable to spend two trillion dollars more, two thousand billion

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Speaker 5: a years.

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Speaker 1: Extra is what we spent last year.

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Speaker 5: So I mean, the vision is we've got to drive

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Speaker 5: revenue up, and we got to drive additional one trillion

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Speaker 5: of revenue, additional one trillion cost savings is the path

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Speaker 5: to a balance budget. Well, the Interior Department, we've got

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Speaker 5: the biggest balance sheet in the world. Five hundred million

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Speaker 5: acres of land, seven hundred million acres of sub service,

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Speaker 5: two billion acres of offshore acreage. All of that's got

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Speaker 5: revenue possibility, and not just an oil and gas but

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Speaker 5: timber and grazing leases, and the under the Biden administration,

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Speaker 5: the revenue in Interior was on a decline. If this

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Speaker 5: was if Interior was a hedge fund, it would be

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Speaker 5: the largest balance sheet in the world, and we would

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Speaker 5: have the poorest returns of any company in the world.

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Speaker 5: I mean this is this is a turnaround opportunity for

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Speaker 5: us to drive revenue up. We want to make sure

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Speaker 5: anybody that's involved in getting permits done they need to stay.

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Speaker 1: People who've been involved in.

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Speaker 5: Blocking permits are people who've been participating in illegally not

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Speaker 5: holding the required lease auctions that are required by law.

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Speaker 1: They probably don't need to stay.

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Speaker 4: Okay, that's good clarity.

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Speaker 3: So let's pivot just before we let you go to

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Speaker 3: say coal and nuclear and steps to be taken to

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Speaker 3: prolong the life of coal plants and nuclear plants, which clearly,

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Speaker 3: if you're above all energy, you're going to need those.

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Speaker 4: Where are we in that right now?

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Speaker 1: Well?

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Speaker 5: Absolutely, We've got two sources of baseload that have been

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Speaker 5: neglected and sometimes demonized, and that's coal and nuclear. And

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Speaker 5: if there's a coal plant still running in the US,

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Speaker 5: it's among the cleanest in the world. And China last

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Speaker 5: year opened up a hundred gigawatts of new coal. India

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Speaker 5: on a similar track. They understand that we've got billions

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Speaker 5: of people that don't even yet have electricity in China

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Speaker 5: in particular, understands they need baseload to be.

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Speaker 1: Able to win the AI arms race.

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Speaker 5: They're also got thirty new their plants under construction and

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Speaker 5: they're spending hundreds of billions of dollars on hydro.

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Speaker 1: So in the US we've fallen behind on energy production.

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Speaker 5: Now we've got real demand from people that are willing

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Speaker 5: to pay for and that's the hyperscalers. The five big

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Speaker 5: tech companies have a three hundred billion dollar capex budget.

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Speaker 1: This is the largest.

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Speaker 5: Their capex budget is bigger than oil and gas, bigger

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Speaker 5: than automotive, bigger than steel, bigger than any other industry.

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Speaker 1: And what they want to spend it on is they.

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Speaker 5: Need electricity to drive that because this is not ANAI

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Speaker 5: data center.

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Speaker 1: Is not like, oh, we're going to process healthcare claims.

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Speaker 1: I mean that's important work. It's just business back office processing.

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Speaker 5: In an AI data center, you're actually manufacturing intelligence, and

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Speaker 5: that intelligence now becomes the highest value product we've ever

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Speaker 5: created with electricity since electricity was invented.

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Speaker 1: So the demand for that is going to be real.

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Speaker 5: We've gone through decades of almost no demand increase. The

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Speaker 5: entire time that I was in tech, we used one

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Speaker 5: percent of the nation's electricity, even as the tech sector

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Speaker 5: was growing. Because everything was becoming more efficient now we're

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Speaker 5: in a spot where we've got real demand growth. We've

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Speaker 5: got to meet that demand growth, and we've got to

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Speaker 5: meet it with reliable, affordable baseloads.

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Speaker 3: And that's not even the entering part, the inference part

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Speaker 3: of it, which is going to be even more so.

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Speaker 3: What's the mechanism that you guys can use to keep

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Speaker 3: the coal plant open longer, the nuclear site open longer.

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Speaker 1: Well, we can.

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Speaker 5: First we can stop death by regulation, and part of

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Speaker 5: that we can do by taking a close look at

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Speaker 5: the actual legality of some of the rule making that

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Speaker 5: was perpetrated against these these industries. And I think as

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Speaker 5: part of under the National Energy Emergency, which President Trump

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Speaker 5: has declared, we've got to keep every coal plant open,

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Speaker 5: and we've got to and if there have been units

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Speaker 5: had a coal plant that have been shut down, we

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Speaker 5: need to bring those back on, not just when it's

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Speaker 5: zero degrees.

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Speaker 1: Or twenty below.

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Speaker 5: I mean, we've had days On the day that President

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Speaker 5: Trump was a NAUGA in the entire PGAM market, which

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Speaker 5: is thirteen states from New York to Virginia, five AM

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Speaker 5: of January twentieth was the highest peak load for the

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Speaker 5: winner zero from solar because it was five am.

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Speaker 1: It was dark out.

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Speaker 5: Two percent from wind, seventy percent from fossil fuels, twenty

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Speaker 5: two percent from nuclear.

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Speaker 1: So if somebody says, hey, we don't need.

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Speaker 5: Fossil fuels or nuclear, it was providing over ninety percent

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Speaker 5: of the power on that particular day for some of

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Speaker 5: our most populous areas. I mean, the only thing would

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Speaker 5: be running would have been a hospital with a diesel

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Speaker 5: generator if you didn't have based load fossil fuels.

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Speaker 1: We're not in a period of energy transition.

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Speaker 5: That is one of the big lives of the climate

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Speaker 5: extremists is energy transition.

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Speaker 1: We're in a period of energy audition.

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Speaker 5: We need addition for the billions of people that don't

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Speaker 5: have electricity, We need additions for AI, we need additions

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Speaker 5: in supply to keep the prices down. And if we

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Speaker 5: want to bring manufacturing back to the United States and

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Speaker 5: reindustrialize our nation and not make the mistake that Germany

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Speaker 5: and the UK are making right now deindustrializing with electric

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Speaker 5: electric prices in Germany or triple what they are here

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Speaker 5: in the United States.

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Speaker 1: And so we're on.

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Speaker 5: A path under President Trump to reindustrialize the US, bring

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Speaker 5: manufacturing home, bring investment back, and it's working.

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Speaker 1: Look one point.

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Speaker 5: Seven trillion dollars of capital flowing back to the US

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Speaker 5: in the last six weeks because they know we're committed

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Speaker 5: to a policy of providing abundant, reliable, low cost energy

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Speaker 5: a TVD.

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Speaker 3: IF that includes solar and onshore and offshore wind, well,

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Speaker 3: I think that those are We know that offshore wind,

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Speaker 3: for sure, is three times as expensive and it's intermittent.

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Speaker 5: So if you're trying for reliable and affordable, it wouldn't

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Speaker 5: meet either of those criteria.

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Speaker 2: US Interior Secretary Doug Bergham speaking with Bloomberg Zalx Steel

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Speaker 2: at Sarawek in Houston,