Speaker 1: Fellow conspiracy realist. Here's his story. The Jedi may not
Speaker 1: tell you. It's about a guy named John Parsons Wheeler
Speaker 1: the Third, or Jack to his palace.
Speaker 2: Aw, now this guy Jack Wheeler, As you said.
Speaker 1: Who is he? Oh? Yeah, yeah, that's a question that
Speaker 1: everybody asked themselves the Bureau. This is a question Jack
Speaker 1: probably asked himself because before his untimely demise, he was
Speaker 1: a silent kingmaker in the defense world of the United States.
Speaker 1: He worked with three different presidential administrations. He was also
Speaker 1: very well known for philanthropy. But then a strange series
Speaker 1: of events led to his passing.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I'm an old political article from twenty
Speaker 2: eleven about how he died from blunt force trauma and
Speaker 2: how that was Like what how did he die like that?
Speaker 1: How did such an important guy get found in a landfill?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Oh, I can't wait for this one. Let's revisit.
Speaker 4: Yes, from UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies, history
Speaker 4: is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now
Speaker 4: or learn this stuff. They don't want you to know.
Speaker 4: A production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Max,
Speaker 2: My name is Nola.
Speaker 1: They called me Ben. We were joined as always with
Speaker 1: our super producer Paul Mission Control decandt here in spirit.
Speaker 1: Most importantly, you are you. You are here, and that
Speaker 1: makes this stuff. They don't want you to know. We
Speaker 1: are delving into a true unsolved mystery today. If you're
Speaker 1: a younger person, you might not have heard of John
Speaker 1: Parsons Wheeler, the Third unless you saw the recent Netflix
Speaker 1: reboot of Unsolved Mysteries. It's a story that largely disappeared
Speaker 1: from mass media headlines in a very weird way. I mean,
Speaker 1: you've heard of Elisa Lamb, but have you heard of
Speaker 1: John Parsons Wheeler. Here are the facts. First things first,
Speaker 1: whether or not you have ever heard of this man.
Speaker 1: If you live in the US, his career has probably
Speaker 1: impacted you in some way. He's one of those guys who,
Speaker 1: it seems like since his early days, he was destined
Speaker 1: for the heights of the military political class.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, an absolute heavyweight and a sharp guy to boot.
Speaker 3: John Parsons Wheeler, the Third Jack to his Pals, was
Speaker 3: born on December fourteenth, nineteen forty four, in Laredo, Texas,
Speaker 3: and he was to some degree kind of destined to
Speaker 3: follow in the footsteps of those that came before him
Speaker 3: in his family line, and was in fact groomed for the.
Speaker 1: Type of illustrious political.
Speaker 3: And military career many would only ever dream of. He
Speaker 3: came from a long line of these career military men,
Speaker 3: including one relative who served in both the Confederate Army
Speaker 3: and then later the United States Army.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he ended up going to the US Military Academy,
Speaker 2: which you may know as West Point. That's the way
Speaker 2: it's generally referred to. Very prestigious place if you were
Speaker 2: going to go that route. And then he was a
Speaker 2: fire control platoon leader in New Jersey back in the
Speaker 2: mid to late sixties, and he ended up getting a
Speaker 2: Bachelor of Science degree from that institution.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Important note about his classmates, his cohort at West Point.
Speaker 1: Many of these men would go on to lose their
Speaker 1: lives in Vietnam, and his experiences with the war had
Speaker 1: a tremendous influence on his career, his personal beliefs, and
Speaker 1: possibly debatably, the end of his life. This class at
Speaker 1: West Point is documented in a book written by a
Speaker 1: former Washington Post journalist named Rick Atkinson. The name of
Speaker 1: the book is The Long Gray Line. This book spends
Speaker 1: a lot of time on Wheeler himself. If you read it,
Speaker 1: and Wheeler had a copy of it at his home.
Speaker 1: He served as a staff officer in Vietnam. He served
Speaker 1: with the Office of the Secretary Defense. He served with
Speaker 1: the Joint Staff before he left service in nineteen seventy one.
Speaker 1: His schooling is particularly interesting because it was his gateway
Speaker 1: to the upper echelons of American society. He enrolled in
Speaker 1: Harvard Business School in sixty nin got a master's in
Speaker 1: Business admin. He got a degree in law from Yale
Speaker 1: in seventy five, and he worked with fancy law firms
Speaker 1: in DC, the ones that kind of blur the line
Speaker 1: between private and public power. They're often called white shoe
Speaker 1: law firms. You may hear them referred to as such.
Speaker 1: He served as a clerk for George E. McKinnon. He
Speaker 1: was a high level official for the SEC Securities and
Speaker 1: Exchange Commission. This guy had his finger in a lot
Speaker 1: of pies. He was during this time at the SEC
Speaker 1: side note he was investigating major cases of insider trading.
Speaker 1: So long story short. He was accepted by the often
Speaker 1: invisible ruling class of this country, and he moved extensively
Speaker 1: in this circle.
Speaker 2: Well, and he's also if anyone knew of his work,
Speaker 2: if you're imagining the people on the other side of
Speaker 2: those investigations, he was already potentially making enemies just putting
Speaker 2: it out there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, great point, Matt. Let's talk a little bit about
Speaker 1: his career, because the space he occupies is a bit alien.
Speaker 1: I think to a lot of the general public. You
Speaker 1: could describe him as a defense consultant, but that is
Speaker 1: a very vague term.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it seems almost like a gray area kind of
Speaker 3: where I could encompass a whole lot of things that
Speaker 3: maybe aren't public knowledge.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, Noel, So he was known for working in
Speaker 1: that often unexamined, liminal space between the FEDS and private
Speaker 1: companies and then charities and nonprofits, and of course, as
Speaker 1: longtime listeners know some of those organizations, not all, but
Speaker 1: some of them are much more closely related than they
Speaker 1: would have you believe, according to you their FAQs on
Speaker 1: their website for most of the people in the US.
Speaker 1: Wheeler's most notable, well known work is his assistance in
Speaker 1: the construction of the Vietnam Veterans Memorial in DC in
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty four. He's instrumental in making that happen. He
Speaker 1: worked for a cavalcade of different institutions and organizations, Amtrak,
Speaker 1: Mothers Against Drunk Driving, three different three different Republican administrations,
Speaker 1: Reagan and then Bush, and then Bush again when that
Speaker 1: guy put his son into office. And he also worked
Speaker 1: for the Miner Corporation. Remember that last one. It's going
Speaker 1: to be important later. His career was not without controversy,
Speaker 1: especially moving in and out of so many institutions. Maybe
Speaker 1: we can talk a little bit about his roles with
Speaker 1: charities and with businesses as well.
Speaker 2: He was extremely active in various nonprofits. I think that's
Speaker 2: probably the way to put it, very specialized nonprofits. And
Speaker 2: he was the founder and CEO of this thing called
Speaker 2: Vietnam Children's Fund. By many accounts, at least if you
Speaker 2: look online, appears to be a great organization, at least
Speaker 2: the forward facing things about it. He worked with President Bush,
Speaker 2: like we said, the father to create this thing called
Speaker 2: the Earth Conservation Corps. He also served as president and
Speaker 2: CEO of the Deafness Research Foundation. I mean, just listen
Speaker 2: to what we're saying here. This man was non stop
Speaker 2: working with organizations that appear to be for the greater
Speaker 2: or the greater good. At least that that's the way.
Speaker 2: That's the way it seems. He also had a really
Speaker 2: solid rep for, oh yeah, this is great, a solid
Speaker 2: rep for turning failing businesses around. Now that sounds sounds
Speaker 2: great right on paper, But when you turn a failing
Speaker 2: business around, like, what does that really mean?
Speaker 1: Right? Like?
Speaker 2: What do you have to do to.
Speaker 3: Turn a failing business around? It's when you start hearing
Speaker 3: like corporate buzzwords like pivot, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it could be you know, and it could
Speaker 2: be everything from specializing in you know, making a company
Speaker 2: specialize in one small thing that is a profit center,
Speaker 2: and then getting rid of a whole bunch of other
Speaker 2: things that a company does, such as the case with Macy's.
Speaker 2: Macy's you'll remember from the mall when you were a kid,
Speaker 2: and some places now I think they're Macy's unless they're
Speaker 2: all gone, I can't remember. But he turned that business around.
Speaker 2: He got him out of bankruptcy, right, which may have
Speaker 2: entailed layoffs.
Speaker 1: That's the elephant in the room, the badger in the bag.
Speaker 1: There under euphemisms like streamlining, pivoting, or focusing. But he
Speaker 1: did manage to write this ship a small note about
Speaker 1: Vietnam Children's Fund. By the way, they build elementary schools
Speaker 1: in Vietnam, and they do a pretty great job at it.
Speaker 1: They're still around. If you want to learn more, you can.
Speaker 1: You can just find them online. But perhaps the most
Speaker 1: unpredictable aspect of Wheeler's post military career was this late
Speaker 1: stage professional plot twist. He was well into his sixties
Speaker 1: when he developed an intense interest in cybersecurity, and that's
Speaker 1: what led him to the Miter Corporation. It also it
Speaker 1: also turned him into one of those guys who always
Speaker 1: has a briefcase inexplicability, always has a briefcase.
Speaker 2: This was in there.
Speaker 1: Huh huh? Who is no telling? No, literally we don't know.
Speaker 1: But behind the scenes, you know, we have to realize
Speaker 1: that this person was a human being and he struggled
Speaker 1: with his own demons. He suffered from depression and bipolar disorder.
Speaker 1: That's not speculation. He received diagnosis in this regard, and
Speaker 1: this resulted in these bouts of frenetic action and then
Speaker 1: unpredictable at times drastic mood swings. But you know who's perfect.
Speaker 2: Well, he's he's clearly a workaholic, right and I'm sure
Speaker 2: in many ways that helped him, at least if you
Speaker 2: watched the I think we mentioned it the Unsolved Mysteries episode,
Speaker 2: as well as you read online stuff that has been
Speaker 2: written by his wife. He thrived quite a bit from
Speaker 2: that energy that he got, not necessarily from bipolar disorder,
Speaker 2: but just that existed within him inherently.
Speaker 1: Right, Right, someone defining themselves by their continual actions, right,
Speaker 1: there must always be a goal to pursue. He's not
Speaker 1: really a kickback and smell the morning dew with a
Speaker 1: nice hot cup of coffee kind of guy. He's got
Speaker 1: stuff to do. But given his track record, and given
Speaker 1: the success and the benefits of the work he does,
Speaker 1: his legacy seems assured until one strange day in November,
Speaker 1: very last day of twenty ten, December thirty. First, there
Speaker 1: are some workers at the Cherry Island landfill near Wilmington, Virginia.
Speaker 1: They see the body of an elderly man plummet from
Speaker 1: the back of a garbage truck onto a heap of trash.
Speaker 1: This turns out to be the body of John Parsons
Speaker 1: Wheeler the Third. He was sixty six years old. Today's episode,
Speaker 1: what happened? We'll tell you after a word from our sponsor.
Speaker 1: Here's where it gets crazy. Officially, this death has been
Speaker 1: ruled a homicide. However, it is a homicide that comes
Speaker 1: with a lot of unanswered questions. And the further you
Speaker 1: dig into this story, the stranger it becomes. So maybe
Speaker 1: we start with the relevant details. Should we start with
Speaker 1: the landfill? What do you think?
Speaker 3: I think that's a perfect place to start. When these
Speaker 3: workers found Wheeler's body, he had the look of having
Speaker 3: been severely beaten. He was wearing a white shirt, black pants,
Speaker 3: and a black jacket, and an important detail, he was
Speaker 3: wearing a class of nineteen sixty six ring from the
Speaker 3: West Point Military Academy. And the thing that was unusual
Speaker 3: about it is that he still had things like that
Speaker 3: clearly very valuable ring that any average street mugger would
Speaker 3: have taken. Not to mention the absolute lack of care
Speaker 3: that went into quote disposing of this body. I mean,
Speaker 3: it was really just dumped in plain view.
Speaker 2: We're going to talk about this later on, but just
Speaker 2: to end up where his body ended up, it was
Speaker 2: either someone taking great care to put a body in
Speaker 2: a dumpster and hope that it never be discovered again,
Speaker 2: because it's actually quite unlikely that they would have discovered
Speaker 2: him amongst all the trash that was dumped that day
Speaker 2: from the truck. The other side of the coin is
Speaker 2: if his body was dumped by somebody or just put
Speaker 2: into a dumpster like that. You're right that there's a
Speaker 2: lack of care in that. I don't know, it's weird.
Speaker 2: It's both sides, right, it's a lack of care, but
Speaker 2: it's also it appears to show intent. I guess if
Speaker 2: someone actually did put him in there to try and
Speaker 2: hide a body.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the thing. It's alarmingly easy to dispose of
Speaker 1: an organism in a landfill, especially a large one. You
Speaker 1: just you have to work out the timing and you
Speaker 1: have to you know, like the day of the week
Speaker 1: when a lot of dumps come in. Things like that.
Speaker 1: This should not be confused or mistaken as confused for
Speaker 1: mistaken as advice on where to put bodies. We are
Speaker 1: not giving you that. We are saying that the average
Speaker 1: I would say, not pre planned or orchestrated mugging or
Speaker 1: murder doesn't usually resultant in the perpetrator having the presence
Speaker 1: of mind to dispose of the body. You know what,
Speaker 1: I mean, if if you are robbing someone, the robbery
Speaker 1: goes wrong and you stab them, wound them, maim them,
Speaker 1: or shoot them, your first instinct is going to be
Speaker 1: to leave the scene immediately rather than sit around and think, hey,
Speaker 1: should I stash this in some bushes Assassin's creed style
Speaker 1: or something like that. It just it doesn't often happen
Speaker 1: that way. So Wilmington is on the case. Authorities contact
Speaker 1: the police in Newcastle, Delaware, where the Wheeler family has
Speaker 1: a second home, and the Virginia Police informed the Delaware
Speaker 1: police of this a few days earlier, just after Christmas,
Speaker 1: around December twenty eighth, Wheeler had told his wife he
Speaker 1: had to spend a few days working on an important
Speaker 1: project at the miner corporation. He told her he'd be
Speaker 1: staying at the Metropolitan Club in downtown Washington, and they
Speaker 1: argued about this. We know they argued, this is not speculation,
Speaker 1: because we can see the email and text records, and
Speaker 1: he was emphasizing this was important. He even talked to
Speaker 1: his therapist about the argument. He was trying to trying
Speaker 1: to smooth things out diplomatically until the point that he
Speaker 1: fell completely out of contact with her, and then police
Speaker 1: found a series of phone calls that made this seem
Speaker 1: like more than an accidental death or a mugging.
Speaker 3: That's right, but more than offering any real solution to
Speaker 3: just raised a significant number of new questions to the
Speaker 3: circumstances surrounding Wheeler's death. One call from December twenty eighth,
Speaker 3: the day Wheeler traveled to Washington, d C. Came from
Speaker 3: a resident of Newcastle named Scott Morris, who saw at
Speaker 3: eleven thirty pm what he described as quote, the darkened
Speaker 3: silhouette of a man standing in the frame of the
Speaker 3: house under construction across the street, methodically lighting what looked
Speaker 3: like small balls of fire and tossing them onto the floor.
Speaker 1: Huh.
Speaker 3: Really descriptive and kind of eerie. The police called to
Speaker 3: the scene didn't find any damage of note, but Morris
Speaker 3: remained disturbed by what he saw. The sense of desperation
Speaker 3: and the purpose of what was going on in this
Speaker 3: scene really stuck with him. He described it as creepy.
Speaker 3: He says, the figure appeared very calm, and when he finished,
Speaker 3: he turned very deliberately and walked away toward the path
Speaker 3: along the Delaware River.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so we know the thing about eyewitness accounts is
Speaker 1: that they they're essentially combo meals, right. The main entree
Speaker 1: in these combo meals is going to be the factual
Speaker 1: description of what happened. But the side order, you know,
Speaker 1: the fries and the drink are the person's own perspective
Speaker 1: and opinion put on put upon what they saw. So yes,
Speaker 1: for Morris, this appears to be purposeful. He somehow, from
Speaker 1: body language, because he didn't speak to this person, he
Speaker 1: somehow believed or got the sense that they were quite deliberate.
Speaker 1: But that doesn't necessarily mean they are because he didn't
Speaker 1: talk to them, right, and he didn't see who it was.
Speaker 1: That's a hugely important detail here. But another hugely important detail.
Speaker 1: That construction site was something Wheeler was involved in an
Speaker 1: anti shagonistic way. It was an on He was part
Speaker 1: of an ongoing legal dispute over the construction of this
Speaker 1: particular house, and he was going hard on the paint too.
Speaker 1: He hated the idea of it being built Partially, yes,
Speaker 1: it would block his home's view of the land and
Speaker 1: the water, but from his perspective, at least the way
Speaker 1: he explained it, the area was historic because back in
Speaker 1: the day early colonists and then later revolutionaries built a
Speaker 1: defense battery on that land. So to him, building anything
Speaker 1: on that land other than perhaps a monument to those
Speaker 1: earlier forces was profoundly offensive. It was a kind of sacrilege.
Speaker 1: But then we have to ask ourselves, was that sincere
Speaker 1: or was that just like his rationalization for this construction
Speaker 1: that he hated, you know what I mean? Anyway, he
Speaker 1: was involved.
Speaker 2: Well, he was involved, and he was trying to stop it.
Speaker 2: His wife says that he was essentially on a mission
Speaker 2: to stop this thing. And we know from just from
Speaker 2: his past life and in his actions everything that he's done,
Speaker 2: he sees something as a goal and he goes for it,
Speaker 2: and that's again like his mission, right, so you can
Speaker 2: imagine that he was very feeling, very very strongly about this.
Speaker 2: And from what I've read, this incident appears to have
Speaker 2: been like smoke bombs that weren't gonna didn't seem to
Speaker 2: cause any damage really to the house, didn't seem to
Speaker 2: cause anything else besides this disturbance. But the weird thing
Speaker 2: is that John Wheeler's cellular phone was recovered in that house,
Speaker 2: the house that was under construction where the silhouetted man
Speaker 2: or person lighting, smoke bombs, was found or was seen
Speaker 2: let's say, very strange.
Speaker 1: Yeah, leaving the accusations of his involvement or his guilt
Speaker 1: in this instance, leaving those all to the side. The
Speaker 1: timeline becomes really weird when we think about when he
Speaker 1: had the phone and when he didn't, how the phone
Speaker 1: got from him to that place in place on the
Speaker 1: banks there. And then there is another call police discover
Speaker 1: on December thirtieth, the day before Wheeler's body is found.
Speaker 1: There's a guy named Rob Dill DLLL. He is one
Speaker 1: of the Wheeler's neighbors there in Newcastle, and he reports
Speaker 1: that someone has broken into the Wheeler's home. I believe
Speaker 1: he's the same neighbor also who said they had a
Speaker 1: TV on very loud when he knew there was no
Speaker 1: one home. He was just doing any thing neighbors do,
Speaker 1: keeping an eye on the house. He had noticed a
Speaker 1: window a jar in the Wheeler house and the exterior door,
Speaker 1: the storm door was closed, but the interior door was
Speaker 1: also a jar. And then he found he found some weird,
Speaker 1: weird stuff when he went into the interior. There was
Speaker 1: a disarray in the kitchen, you know, like somebody had
Speaker 1: been rooting through things in a hurried manner. John had
Speaker 1: a ceremonial sword and shield. They were covered with powder
Speaker 1: by the sink. Rob Dill notices a footprint in powder
Speaker 1: in front of the sink, and when the police show up.
Speaker 1: The weird thing is that nothing seems to have been stolen.
Speaker 1: Stuff was messed with, but no one took expensive electronics.
Speaker 1: No one took, you know, some of the art that
Speaker 1: the Wheelers had, the kind of stuff you would normally
Speaker 1: steal if you were just a garden variety B and
Speaker 1: E dude. But there was one detail that caught their attention.
Speaker 1: Amid all this disarray, investigators found a book on the
Speaker 1: kitchen counter. The book was open, as if someone had
Speaker 1: been reading it before they left. Can you guess what
Speaker 1: the book is? If you guessed the long gray line,
Speaker 1: you are correct. Yeah, man.
Speaker 2: And just the fact that his ceremonial sword and shield
Speaker 2: we're hanging out down there. I mean, that's a it's weird. Spices,
Speaker 2: some comment maybe, or whatever the white substance was, and
Speaker 2: those things. I don't know. It's weird. It's tough because
Speaker 2: initially what that sounds like to me is frantically searching
Speaker 2: for something in your own house and then maybe finding
Speaker 2: it or not finding it and getting upset and leaving.
Speaker 2: That's where forget or you know there's something I've hidden something,
Speaker 2: or I know I've hidden something, but I'm not sure
Speaker 2: where it is. I think it might be under the sink,
Speaker 2: and like just pulling everything frantically out from drawers and
Speaker 2: from under the sink.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: That's what it sounds like to me. Rather like, as
Speaker 2: you said, for all the reason you've already stated been
Speaker 2: rather than someone going into the house and robbing it,
Speaker 2: unless they were just trying to leave a message of some.
Speaker 1: Sort, right, unless there was possibly someone from his past. Right,
Speaker 1: this is the thing. We don't know what page the
Speaker 1: book was on, you know, when it was open. Was
Speaker 1: it indicating a specific somehow significant passage unknown at this time.
Speaker 1: But then also we see an alternate possibility that maybe
Speaker 1: Wheeler himself is panicked or he's hurried for some reason,
Speaker 1: because when people are hurrying from their own house, they
Speaker 1: don't always close the windows or the doors, right, because
Speaker 1: the logic is, it's my house, I'll just come back
Speaker 1: into it. Right. So the initial investigations tell us increasingly
Speaker 1: strange things on January third, just a few days after
Speaker 1: the discovery of his body, you p reported Wheeler's death
Speaker 1: was ruled a homicide, but a friend of his that
Speaker 1: he knew through the legal circles he moved in noted,
Speaker 1: this is just not the kind of guy who gets murdered.
Speaker 1: This is not the kind of guy you find in
Speaker 1: a landfill. But the official cause of death again, his homicide,
Speaker 1: and that was specified in several obituaries that came out
Speaker 1: shortly after.
Speaker 3: So according to his obituary in the Washington Posts, well,
Speaker 3: I'll just read you a quote quote, the cause of
Speaker 3: death was blunt force trauma inflicted by unknown assailants in Wilmington, Delaware,
Speaker 3: not far from his home in Newcastle, Delaware. But as
Speaker 3: these investigations continued, many more troubling details started to rise
Speaker 3: to the surface. Wheelers seemed to not only have been beaten,
Speaker 3: but beaten to the point of like the beating inducing
Speaker 3: a heart attack I can only imagine, and several eyewitnesses
Speaker 3: would report that Wheeler had been seen in really rough
Speaker 3: shape holding a shoe his shoe, stumbling around under duress
Speaker 3: in Wilmington, Delaware. He was telling people in this unsolved
Speaker 3: Mysteries that we talked about. The top of the show,
Speaker 3: they interview some of the folks that saw him, and
Speaker 3: he claimed to have lost his briefcase, or rather even
Speaker 3: even more so, had it stolen.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is what he's stolen.
Speaker 3: And he kept repeating it like he was in some
Speaker 3: kind of fugue state, whether it's suffering from some sort
Speaker 3: of mental breakdown or just dazed from having been attacked,
Speaker 3: or you know, in disheveled and all that. But it
Speaker 3: really does, the plot does thicken. There's some footage you
Speaker 3: can see, Uh, he's on camera from his kind of
Speaker 3: you know, wander, and you can see that he's kind
Speaker 3: of pacing around frantically. He's holding the shoe. It almost
Speaker 3: looks like he's mumbling to himself. He looks very disoriented
Speaker 3: on these CCTV videos and he claims to have been
Speaker 3: robbed and needed a ride out of town.
Speaker 2: And this is my side note here, but when you
Speaker 2: first look at the footage, you see an you see
Speaker 2: an elderly man that does appear to be out of
Speaker 2: sorts for one reason or another. And in my mind,
Speaker 2: initially what I see is disorientation, like a disoriented person.
Speaker 2: I don't maybe I don't know where I am. I'm
Speaker 2: confused about what's going on and why I'm here. That's
Speaker 2: what it looks like. But according to people who knew him, well,
Speaker 2: there's several interviews outside of that Unsolved Mysteries show that
Speaker 2: include his wife and several people that knew him and
Speaker 2: his wife speaking about others words, but they all say
Speaker 2: that he looked in distress as though he was what
Speaker 2: did they I think, Ben, you kind of put it
Speaker 2: that way, hunting or being hunted, essentially, like he was
Speaker 2: in distress for one reason or another. That's their opinion.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, And that's a phrase we'll use later in
Speaker 1: the episode because it does encapsulate exactly how he was behaving.
Speaker 1: And again we see the issue with eyewitness reports. People
Speaker 1: are putting their own perspective over the events, or it's
Speaker 1: a better way to say it is they're seeing the
Speaker 1: same events through the lens of their own perspective and
Speaker 1: their preconceptions. Here's the thing. This doesn't appear to have
Speaker 1: come out of nowhere, because email records show that on
Speaker 1: December twenty ninth, he had contacted his colleagues at the
Speaker 1: Miterer Corporation reporting a home break in. He said that
Speaker 1: his cell phone had been stolen, his badge, his ID badge,
Speaker 1: his security fob, and his briefcase. There's a mystery here.
Speaker 1: We know as records for cab calls, we have interviews
Speaker 1: with cab drivers who spoke with him, you know, his
Speaker 1: records for emails and texts. But after he reported his
Speaker 1: phone being stolen, it's not clear where he was sending
Speaker 1: these other emails from or how he was sending them.
Speaker 1: Was it an internet cafe or something like that. We
Speaker 1: simply do not know. There are no further reports of
Speaker 1: him until six pm, when he walked into the nearby
Speaker 1: Happy Harry's pharmacy. This was like his you know, it's
Speaker 1: like his CVS or his Walgreens down the street or
Speaker 1: right eight I guess, depending on where you live, Dwayne Reid,
Speaker 1: if you're in New York, I'm just naming pharmacies at
Speaker 1: this point.
Speaker 4: But he.
Speaker 1: Knows the people who work there. He is friends with
Speaker 1: one of the pharmacists, and he comes in and he
Speaker 1: asks this guy if he can get a ride to Wilmington,
Speaker 1: and multiple times people try to offer him assistance, and
Speaker 1: for varying reasons, he always turned the assistance down.
Speaker 2: It's strange did we talk about why he wants to
Speaker 2: go to Willington. At least according to that documentary or
Speaker 2: that Unsolved Mysteries episode, it's because his car was parked
Speaker 2: somewhere where he left his car park somewhere and he
Speaker 2: wanted to go find it, but he wasn't quite sure
Speaker 2: where it is, and according to his wife and others,
Speaker 2: he would he was constantly losing his car essentially after
Speaker 2: he would park it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, DC is a tough place to park in, I
Speaker 1: mean a lot of the North East in general. But
Speaker 1: also he was doing something that I think will be
Speaker 1: familiar to a lot of people who park their car
Speaker 1: for a long time during quarantine. He just hadn't been
Speaker 1: around his car for a minute, right, so he wasn't
Speaker 1: quite sure where he put it. That doesn't The important
Speaker 1: thing here is that's losing your car in that way
Speaker 1: is not indicative of an unwell mental state.
Speaker 2: Yes, and that's the story that he was giving to
Speaker 2: people to for the reason and to get to that area.
Speaker 2: But we're not, I don't know, we can't definitively prove
Speaker 2: that's why he needed to get to.
Speaker 1: Wilmington, right, Just that that's what he said to some people,
Speaker 1: but not all. That's a very good point. So he
Speaker 1: looks particularly rough when he's in one parking lot talking
Speaker 1: this parking attendant. He has one shoe on the other
Speaker 1: is ripped and in his hand, and it turns out
Speaker 1: that he is in the wrong deck. His car is
Speaker 1: in a different nearby parking deck are he eventually leaves
Speaker 1: the scene. There are no further sightings of him until
Speaker 1: December thirtieth, when he visits a high rise to speak
Speaker 1: with a senior partner at a law firm. He leaves
Speaker 1: before he actually meets with this person, but he also,
Speaker 1: according to someone else in the office, asked for money
Speaker 1: to take the train somewhere before he left. Surveillance cameras
Speaker 1: captured him exiting the building. He was walked east toward
Speaker 1: a place called Rodney Square, and this leads if you
Speaker 1: walk past Rodney Square, this leads to an area of
Speaker 1: the city that is known for historically high rates of crime.
Speaker 1: That footage is the last time John Parsons Wheeler is
Speaker 1: seen alive.
Speaker 2: The next morning, he's found dead in that landfill. It
Speaker 2: is interesting to note as well, it appears that he
Speaker 2: may have spent the night underneath that building where there
Speaker 2: are there's a series of tunnels essentially that go throughout
Speaker 2: the area, and he was definitely seen on camera down there,
Speaker 2: and he was also seen in the same clothes he
Speaker 2: was wearing earlier. And then when he exited the building, somehow,
Speaker 2: for some reason, he had gotten a hold of a
Speaker 2: black hoodie right put that on and wore that out
Speaker 2: of the building the next night.
Speaker 3: And then then folks who knew him, his wife for example,
Speaker 3: who were interviewed for that Unsolved Mystery episode, said that
Speaker 3: was just completely out of character for him, not something
Speaker 3: he would have ever worn. But it was also very cold,
Speaker 3: for sure, But it's like it didn't belong to him.
Speaker 3: He got it from somebody or some somewhere found it or.
Speaker 1: Something, yeah, or maybe picked it up paid cash, because
Speaker 1: he did have cash on him to the very end
Speaker 1: of his life and beyond. So when his body has
Speaker 1: found at the landfill, police in Newark, New Jersey ended
Speaker 1: up taking the case because there's evidence that the trash
Speaker 1: truck that had his body in it made stops in Newark,
Speaker 1: which means that Wheeler's body somehow ended up in a
Speaker 1: dumpster about thirteen miles away from where he was last seen.
Speaker 1: On video or where he's last provably seen. As far
Speaker 1: as the information Law enforcement has released, how much have
Speaker 1: they released? Not all of it, not by a long shot.
Speaker 1: We're going to pause for word from our sponsor, and
Speaker 1: then we're going to dive into some of the theories
Speaker 1: and remaining questions regarding the death of John Parsons Wheeler.
Speaker 1: We're back earlier. We noted that whomever was throwing smoke
Speaker 1: bombs at that construction site, whoever they were, they weren't
Speaker 1: throwing explosives. You know, this wasn't C four. They weren't
Speaker 1: lighting fires. The smoke bombs didn't really have the capacity
Speaker 1: to do permanent damage.
Speaker 3: No. I mean, we kind of all know what smoke
Speaker 3: bombs are. The kind of things you can buy at
Speaker 3: a joke shop or a fireworks shop, and they're sort
Speaker 3: of considered like the wimpiest of fireworks, but they make
Speaker 3: cool plumes of colored smoke, which you would have thought
Speaker 3: that the eyewitness people would have mentioned the smoke bombs.
Speaker 3: I mean, they put out a lot of smoke, and
Speaker 3: it's usually brightly colored, like blues or purples or pinks
Speaker 3: or whatever.
Speaker 2: But it was it was at eleven eleven thre thirty
Speaker 2: PM when that was happening, right, So.
Speaker 3: He was described as being silhouetted, So wouldn't you would
Speaker 3: have had to have some direct light to see the
Speaker 3: effects there. But you're right, I mean these things they
Speaker 3: don't even really explode. They just kind of light the
Speaker 3: fuse and it sparks and then once it hits, it
Speaker 3: really just starts shooting out the smoke. So they wouldn't
Speaker 3: have done any damage. You can't really do a thing
Speaker 3: with smoke bombs other than, you know, disappear if you're
Speaker 3: like a cool ninja or something.
Speaker 1: So could he have made an enemy? I mean, he's
Speaker 1: definitely involved where someone definitely wanted it to look as
Speaker 1: if he were involved, because his cell phone ends up
Speaker 1: at the construction site. So did he lie to the
Speaker 1: Miter corporation and say that he had lost his cell
Speaker 1: phone prior to this to try to escape culpability. Did
Speaker 1: someone steal his cell phone and put it at the
Speaker 1: construction site. That's a kind of complicated frame up, isn't it.
Speaker 1: There would have to be a compelling reason to do that.
Speaker 2: Or was the smoke bomb a signal for me? You know,
Speaker 2: like was I mean that sounds silly, but maybe this
Speaker 2: smoke bomb at a construction site was Maybe the construction
Speaker 2: site was a quiet place to meet that he thought
Speaker 2: would be you know, he'd be able to have a
Speaker 2: confidential conversation. There's another question, like when you're talking about
Speaker 2: the minor corporation materials, and I don't mean, you know,
Speaker 2: I don't want to put anything on John. I don't
Speaker 2: know what he was doing or what his motivations were,
Speaker 2: but I can imagine all of those assets for a
Speaker 2: company could be valuable to somebody.
Speaker 1: Right, You're absolutely right, there's something else here.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: We see a couple of points where this could have
Speaker 1: been a simple robbery or a series of unfortunate, completely mundane,
Speaker 1: non spionage related events. But there are some problems with
Speaker 1: that too. So first, as you would pointed out earlier, Matt,
Speaker 1: the body has things on it that a mugger would
Speaker 1: have stolen. Very nice Rolex watch. He's got that class
Speaker 1: ring from West Point. He still has cold hard cash
Speaker 1: on his person. Why would robbers leave all those things
Speaker 1: on a victim? If robbers they were, If there were
Speaker 1: robbers at his home, what were they looking for? It
Speaker 1: was certainly not high end art, It was not electronics,
Speaker 1: other valuables. None of those were touched. They were just
Speaker 1: searching frantically for turmeric apparently. But the problem here is
Speaker 1: one of geography. Honestly, it's a series of bizarre disturbances.
Speaker 1: And even if you do the footwork and look through
Speaker 1: the documented timeline of where he went and when, you'll
Speaker 1: see that this appears to be a man on the run.
Speaker 1: He is either being hunted or believes he is being hunted,
Speaker 1: or possibly at some parts of the timeline, he himself
Speaker 1: is hunting someone, which leads us to ask the question,
Speaker 1: are we talking about murder for hire?
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, I mean, you know, you mentioned completely correctly, Ben.
Speaker 3: Like the way this man looks, the way he's pacing
Speaker 3: in this bathroom, it's like he's hiding from somebody. It's
Speaker 3: like he's trying to escape some unseen assailant.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 3: I mean that really, that's how it rings for me.
Speaker 3: I don't know if you guys read it that way,
Speaker 3: but I really got strong vibes that he was being chaste.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I can imagine it. We have to wonder,
Speaker 2: and again I end up going back to the Miter
Speaker 2: corporation because he only worked for them for what two
Speaker 2: years a year or two years two thousand and nine,
Speaker 2: I think twenty ten until his death. He was just
Speaker 2: a consultant with them, and who knows what consulting work
Speaker 2: for the Miter corporation actually looks like, who knows what
Speaker 2: information he was dealing with and had you know, privileged
Speaker 2: knowledge too, And of gosh, I guess have to put
Speaker 2: a giant it's not in a lie, it's it's my
Speaker 2: own thoughts, and it's I wonder if his work with
Speaker 2: a minor corporation had something to do with this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think that's out of the realm of
Speaker 1: possibility at all, because at this at this point, you know,
Speaker 1: the US intelligence community is well aware of the asymmetrical
Speaker 1: information warfare that countries like Russia and China and the
Speaker 1: DPRK or North Korea are actively waging against the US.
Speaker 1: And to be fair, the US is doing the same
Speaker 1: thing with those countries with countries in the Middle East.
Speaker 1: I mean, take a map, spin it around and just
Speaker 1: throw a random dart at it, and you'll probably hit
Speaker 1: a country that the US is fine on. So there
Speaker 1: are a lot of state level actors that would be
Speaker 1: very interested in his work at Miter Corporation. This takes
Speaker 1: me back to that point we made earlier about having
Speaker 1: a lot of potential enemies because he had a lot
Speaker 1: of potential projects. It's a nexus of speculation, and there's
Speaker 1: a really there's a disturbing part here that I wish
Speaker 1: some of those documentaries we mentioned spent more time on.
Speaker 1: And it's this. So we've talked about CCTV before, closed
Speaker 1: circuit television. This stuff is, you know, generally right now,
Speaker 1: it's not all interconnected. Right, So, like the pizza shop
Speaker 1: on one side of the street may have a couple
Speaker 1: of security cameras, and the cupcake factory or whatever on
Speaker 1: the other side of the street may have their own
Speaker 1: set of cameras, but they don't really share data. The
Speaker 1: thing is, law enforcement can legally obtain those, especially in
Speaker 1: the case of an investigation of a heinous crime like
Speaker 1: a murder. Wilmington in particular is inundated with cameras. It
Speaker 1: is lousy with cameras. There's so so many, and we
Speaker 1: know that they're therefore, there has to be more footage
Speaker 1: of John Parsons Wheeler on that faithful night. But if
Speaker 1: you look at law enforcement statements, you just don't see
Speaker 1: that footage, you don't see the vast majority of what
Speaker 1: could be out there, And looking at the facts alone,
Speaker 1: it's plausible that this investigation was at some point and
Speaker 1: from some high level stonewalled. Now that doesn't mean that
Speaker 1: someone you know working for miteror killed them, or working
Speaker 1: for the CIA or you know, some other intelligence organization.
Speaker 1: It just means that whoever murdered Wheeler, and whatever their
Speaker 1: motivations for doing so were, there's something about the story
Speaker 1: the US government actively does not want you to know.
Speaker 3: Going even further than stonewalled, you could almost say manipulated
Speaker 3: or compromised.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, maybe can I put something out there?
Speaker 2: If I'm gonna this is insane, I'm just gonna say it.
Speaker 2: Imagine the three of us. Imagine if for some reason,
Speaker 2: iHeart was out to get us. All of our devices
Speaker 2: are inextricably linked to iHeart. Doesn't mean they're tracking them necessarily,
Speaker 2: but any use that we would have on our machines,
Speaker 2: even on our phones, likely could be linked back to
Speaker 2: that company in some way. And if we needed to
Speaker 2: get away because we were being hunted for some reason,
Speaker 2: we're not and we will never be by iHeart. A
Speaker 2: good strategy maybe to get rid of all of those
Speaker 2: potential links and devices. Sure, yeah, so I'm imagining that
Speaker 2: there could be a scenario where John got rid of
Speaker 2: all of that Miter Corporation stuff on purpose because he
Speaker 2: wasn't trying to get away from somebody else. He was
Speaker 2: maybe trying to get away from them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, or maybe maybe trying to do something like do
Speaker 1: a burn the village to save the village strategy and
Speaker 1: maybe brick his devices. He would have he would have
Speaker 1: known how to actually brick one two, how to make
Speaker 1: that information as close to irretrievable as possible. But that
Speaker 1: missing briefcase, that's one of the keys here. Who's never
Speaker 1: without it. It's never been found. All we know about
Speaker 1: what could have been in the briefcase is that it
Speaker 1: must have been related to his cybersecurity work at Miter.
Speaker 1: Well not must have, but that's the most likely scenario.
Speaker 1: We just don't know.
Speaker 3: You know. It reminds me of a show that I
Speaker 3: worked on, Murder in Oregon, about the well, I mean,
Speaker 3: it's it's conjectured by the folks who truly believe this
Speaker 3: is what happened, That this public official was assassinated because
Speaker 3: he knew too much about corruption in the Oregon State
Speaker 3: prison system, and when he was killed, it was you know,
Speaker 3: shocked up to being a mugging. He was stabbed in
Speaker 3: the heart outside of his office building. But guess what
Speaker 3: was missing when when they found his body a briefcase
Speaker 3: full of the presentation materials. Back then it would have
Speaker 3: been floppy discs before PowerPoint and cloud based stuff, and
Speaker 3: supposedly that was never recovered, and that had this presentation
Speaker 3: that he's about to give that was going to blow
Speaker 3: the lid off of all this like literally cops like
Speaker 3: smuggling meth out of prisons and into prisons and really horrible,
Speaker 3: gnarly stuff. You know. Again, none of this has ever
Speaker 3: been proven, but the case seems really strong and this
Speaker 3: really has the same ring of that to me.
Speaker 2: Well, and he was going to meet some people at
Speaker 2: the corporate offices right in that building.
Speaker 1: Yeay, he had been in the he had been meeting
Speaker 1: wanting to meet with a legal team. He had also
Speaker 1: been around the DuPont building at the same time. And
Speaker 1: again he had emphasized to his family and to his
Speaker 1: colleagues that he had to work even though it was
Speaker 1: like the end of the year, like he had to
Speaker 1: go in and knock out some incredibly crucial stuff with miter.
Speaker 1: It is currently unknown whether the last several hours of
Speaker 1: his life were spent in Wilmington or in Newark. There's
Speaker 1: no conclusive murder scene that has been found, or at
Speaker 1: least there's none that's been discussed with the public, and
Speaker 1: if there's an exact time of death, that has also
Speaker 1: not been released. In fact, going to my earlier theory
Speaker 1: that there's some stonewalling or some oxcation here. On January
Speaker 1: eighth of twenty eleven, just a few days after his
Speaker 1: body was discovered, a Wilmington City councilman named Kevin Kelly
Speaker 1: told police not to quote go overboard in investigating this
Speaker 1: man's death at the time. Yeah, right, that's weird. It's like, okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: look into this murder, but you guys, don't make it
Speaker 1: a whole thing, you know.
Speaker 2: Just a high profile person who pass in a very
Speaker 2: strange way. Mm hm, and you say, don't don't worry
Speaker 2: about it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, chill bro Right. At the time of this recording
Speaker 1: of our recording, any toxicology reports on Wheeler that may have,
Speaker 1: you know, indicated some kind of substance in his body,
Speaker 1: they are unavailable to the public. Medical examiners. I found
Speaker 1: a couple sources saying that the examiners indicated they either
Speaker 1: found no abnormal chemicals or nothing that played a role
Speaker 1: in his demise. Because we have to remember, some substances
Speaker 1: can be metabolized very quickly and they'll still have damaging effects.
Speaker 1: But when you check the body afterwards, they'll be clean,
Speaker 1: you know, and they'll have appeared to die of something
Speaker 1: like asphyxiation or heart failure. Russia does polonium on purpose.
Speaker 1: It's so that you know it's Russia. There are other
Speaker 1: much much less apparent substances.
Speaker 2: What was the stuff not Navalney got hit with in
Speaker 2: his underwear?
Speaker 1: Noviachok, novachok.
Speaker 2: That's the the whole point, at least according to that
Speaker 2: phone call. If you believe it was that it would
Speaker 2: be untraceable, you'd have no idea what.
Speaker 1: Happened, right, But then also, how much of an expert
Speaker 1: is that guy If he's gonna talk about that stuff on.
Speaker 2: The phone, well he's so yeah, Okay, come on, he
Speaker 2: was allegedly, at least according to his belief, was talking
Speaker 2: to one of his handlers.
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, but yeah, all right, well, far be
Speaker 1: it for us to criticize someone else just trying to
Speaker 1: do their job. So in some ways this case does
Speaker 1: bear similarities to that still unsolved death of Elisa lam
Speaker 1: We have video footage, we have records of communication. What
Speaker 1: we do not have, however, is anything like an explanation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, not even close.
Speaker 1: And unlike the case of Lamb, it appears the world
Speaker 1: at large has moved on from the mysterious death of
Speaker 1: John Wheeler.
Speaker 2: It really does seem that way. I'm thankful that Unsolved
Speaker 2: Mysteries came back with this episode because it feels like
Speaker 2: it's really jump started at least discussion online in a
Speaker 2: lot of places because I think may it's been eleven
Speaker 2: ten ten years, almost eleven years. No eleven years, God huh,
Speaker 2: It's just it's been so long. And one of my
Speaker 2: big questions coming away from this after reading everything, watching
Speaker 2: all this stuff, there are two scenarios for me. One
Speaker 2: is that he really was going through some kind of
Speaker 2: mental state where he was either manic or super low
Speaker 2: right where he was just going through something I'm not
Speaker 2: confused is the wrong word, but he just what he
Speaker 2: was focused on other things, and what we see in
Speaker 2: the footage is him truly in a distressed, confused state
Speaker 2: and he's not sure what's going on. He's trying to
Speaker 2: find his car, then he gets lost. He has no
Speaker 2: way to communicate because he doesn't have a cell phone's
Speaker 2: he can't get back to his wife. Who would, you know,
Speaker 2: like be his mental rock or another family member, somebody
Speaker 2: familiar that would kind of help him. And he's cold,
Speaker 2: he's in a different place. Maybe a car took him
Speaker 2: to Newark and he didn't expect to go to Newark
Speaker 2: for some reason, or somebody he got in a car
Speaker 2: with with bad intentions took him to Newark instead of
Speaker 2: where he wanted to go. And you know, that's one
Speaker 2: potential thing. And along with that is maybe he was
Speaker 2: cold and he climbed into a dumpster, which is a
Speaker 2: common thing that occurs when it's very very cold outside
Speaker 2: and there's no other place to go. Dumpsters are used
Speaker 2: in that Unsolved Mysteries episode. There there's a few people
Speaker 2: who work in that industry saying that, yeah, it's very
Speaker 2: common for us to load the truck up to one
Speaker 2: of these dumpsters, you put the forks in, and then
Speaker 2: somebody will pop out the top or jump out the
Speaker 2: side and be like who whoa whoa stop stop, I'm
Speaker 2: in here, and I'm not saying that John Wood or
Speaker 2: wouldn't do that. It's just a real possibility, right right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, it's a real possibility, and it's an excellent point.
Speaker 1: We do also need to point out that, you know,
Speaker 1: the family, the survivors, his relatives, his friends, his colleagues
Speaker 1: have all also you know, done their best hiring investigators,
Speaker 1: putting out rewards for information, but still at this point
Speaker 1: there seem to be no leads the like. The craziest
Speaker 1: question is could could a government agency of some actor,
Speaker 1: some state actor, or a faction thereof have targeted him
Speaker 1: for his extensive high level knowledge. He knew a lot
Speaker 1: of stuff.
Speaker 2: You know they did, Yeah, he really did.
Speaker 1: But the thing is he seems by all accounts to
Speaker 1: be a real company man, like he's ideologically loyal. He
Speaker 1: doesn't seem like he's the type to divulge secret intelligence,
Speaker 1: to spill the to spill the espionage beans, or anything
Speaker 1: like that. So then we have to ask, I don't
Speaker 1: when you get all Jacob's ladder with this, but we
Speaker 1: have to ask whether there might be a personal revenge
Speaker 1: mode of at play. Could it have been something related
Speaker 1: to Vietnam. There's no solid proof all that.
Speaker 2: Or or that house or the house that house across
Speaker 2: the street where he was trying to shut that thing down.
Speaker 2: The Yeah, I think that's a real possibility that he
Speaker 2: made a personal enemy somehow, one way or another. If
Speaker 2: the other thing I want to bring up with that dumpster,
Speaker 2: just really quickly, I'm sorry that I didn't finish that
Speaker 2: thought there. If you're in a dumpster like that, imagine
Speaker 2: the physics of one of these big forklift trucks picking
Speaker 2: up a dumpster if you're inside of it, and then
Speaker 2: dumping it forced into the back of a truck. Then
Speaker 2: also think about the fact that a lot of those
Speaker 2: dump trucks have a compressor function on purpose to compress trash.
Speaker 2: Imagine if you got stuck in there, accidentally, are caught unawares,
Speaker 2: get dumped in there, and then get crushed to a
Speaker 2: certain extent. The injuries that are shown on that report,
Speaker 2: like crushed ribs, like he appeared to have been beaten up.
Speaker 2: But I'm wondering this sounds so silly, and I don't
Speaker 2: mean to discount the work of any corner of any
Speaker 2: medical examiners. But like, I'm trying to imagine how much
Speaker 2: damage would be done to a human body if it
Speaker 2: went through that process. If you're in a lot of
Speaker 2: fairly malleable trash, how much would a human body actually
Speaker 2: get crushed? Would it be to the extent where you
Speaker 2: wouldn't recognize the damage was being done because you would
Speaker 2: have differing points hitting the body, right, Like, I know
Speaker 2: it's weird to get into the physics of what that
Speaker 2: would be like, but I'm just in my mind, like,
Speaker 2: what if it was just him being in that compactor
Speaker 2: that caused the damage? Tell me if that's stupid.
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's not stupid at all. But even
Speaker 1: if the thing is, even if that's the case, it
Speaker 1: doesn't explain some of those other things leading up to
Speaker 1: their demise, Right.
Speaker 2: So.
Speaker 1: If it is, if it is something like that, it's
Speaker 1: it's still I would say, no, less tragic. That's a
Speaker 1: horrible way to go, especially when you're already having what
Speaker 1: appears to be a very hectic and unpleasant series of days. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's quite it's quite possible. It's also possible that maybe
Speaker 1: he was beaten before. Maybe maybe he was beaten near
Speaker 1: to the point of death and then escaped into a
Speaker 1: dumpster to hide. It is possible. Again, all the things
Speaker 1: that we're saying right now are possible but not proven.
Speaker 1: You know, there are questions that have just become tougher
Speaker 1: to answer over time, because again, in my opinion, something
Speaker 1: was up with the investigation on some level. What would
Speaker 1: you say about that, Matt.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean from what we found there from Kevin Kelly,
Speaker 2: that seems off. That seems really really off. This was
Speaker 2: a high profile person that was you know, appeared to
Speaker 2: be beloved in many circles, especially in the upper echelons
Speaker 2: of at least the Republican Party, if not you know,
Speaker 2: the without using the phrase deep state, the non elected
Speaker 2: parts of the government.
Speaker 1: Right right, Yeah, one thing is for sure. Something about this,
Speaker 1: if not the direct murder or a homicide or accidental death,
Speaker 1: something about this appear orchestrated. It appears that someone had
Speaker 1: a plan and whatever this was, it was not a
Speaker 1: random break in and a random Mugging's something was at place.
Speaker 1: Something was afoot. But what you know, Matt, I know
Speaker 1: we're in deep water here because we're we're exchanging theories,
Speaker 1: we're sharing possibilities, but without access to more information or
Speaker 1: a deathbed confession or something. I think everybody is at
Speaker 1: a loss to explain this. A lot of the things
Speaker 1: we just mentioned are currently equally plausible or equally possible.
Speaker 2: I should say, well, we want to know what you think.
Speaker 2: What happened to John Parsons Wheeler The third right to us.
Speaker 2: You can find us on Facebook. You can find us
Speaker 2: on Twitter. We're conspiracy stuff at both of those. On Instagram,
Speaker 2: we are Conspiracy Stuff Show. You can also head on
Speaker 2: over to our Facebook group Here's where it Gets Crazy.
Speaker 2: A you like that, it's just like our segment that's
Speaker 2: been on the show since the beginning. You can go
Speaker 2: over there and hang out with listeners just like you
Speaker 2: have discussions. You will be surprised at how excellent an
Speaker 2: online discussion can be about topics like this. It's it's wonderful.
Speaker 2: Highly recommend it.
Speaker 1: And update from from the Here's where it Gets Crazy front.
Speaker 1: Apparently there's talk about writing a stuff they don't want
Speaker 1: you to know a piece of fan fiction. Yeah, yep,
Speaker 1: so is it romantic? I don't know. We're we're not
Speaker 1: in charge of This is from Holly, one of your
Speaker 1: fellow listeners, So we will be having it. We will
Speaker 1: be figuring it out at the same time you do. Folks.
Speaker 1: One nice note, it looks like this might be used
Speaker 1: potentially to raise money for some charities in the Marshall Islands.
Speaker 1: So oh wow, so you can be for a good cause.
Speaker 1: But yeah, that's that's the That's some of the stuff
Speaker 1: that you will see on here's where it gets crazy.
Speaker 1: If you are not given to exploring social media, totally
Speaker 1: get it. You can call us directly. We have a
Speaker 1: phone line that we are doing a great job at
Speaker 1: now keep you track of It is one eight three
Speaker 1: three st d w yt K. You call, you'll hear
Speaker 1: a voicemail message telling you you're in the right place.
Speaker 1: You get three minutes. They belong to you. Do what
Speaker 1: thou wilt shall be the whole of the telephone law.
Speaker 1: But but we do have a concept for Yeah, but
Speaker 1: we have a couple of recommendations that may be helpful
Speaker 1: for you if you find yourself kind of like scrambling.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, first thing, go ahead and tell us what
Speaker 2: you want us to call you on air. Doesn't have
Speaker 2: to be your real name. Whatever you want Malkovich is fine.
Speaker 2: We'll just call everybody Malcavich then let us know if
Speaker 2: we can use your message on the air. Really, I mean,
Speaker 2: if you call it, I don't want to limit you
Speaker 2: if you call in, we really want to use it
Speaker 2: on the air. Just let us know if it's okay.
Speaker 2: Then after that tell us your message. Try and keep
Speaker 2: it as brief as you possibly can. If you end
Speaker 2: up needing to, you know, tell a longer story or something,
Speaker 2: we would recommend rather than leaving it on the voicemail,
Speaker 2: go ahead and send us an email. And many of
Speaker 2: you have been doing this already. Thank you so much
Speaker 2: for listening and for just you know, doing this. It
Speaker 2: really does help us out. We can we can get
Speaker 2: through an email message pretty quickly. If you want to
Speaker 2: send us an email, it's really easy. Shoot us a message.
Speaker 5: We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.
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