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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group, or if you've had

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Speaker 1: an experience with manipulation or abuse of power you'd like

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Speaker 1: to share, leave us a message on our hotline number

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Speaker 1: at five one three nine hundred two nine five five.

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Speaker 2: Or sheet us an email at trust Me pod at

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Speaker 2: gmail dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust me, Trust trust Me.

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Speaker 4: I'm like a swat person.

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Speaker 5: I've never lived.

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Speaker 4: To you, If you think that.

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Speaker 1: One person has all the answers, don't welcome to Trust Me.

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Speaker 1: The podcast about cults, extreme belief and the abusive power

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Speaker 1: from two future rich guys who've actually experienced it.

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Speaker 5: My name is Lola Blanc and I'm Meg and Elizabeth.

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Speaker 1: And today our guests are yet again journalist Lauren Matthias

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Speaker 1: and forensic psychologist doctor John Matthias, host of Hidden, a

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Speaker 1: true crime podcast. Today is part two of our interview.

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Speaker 1: They are experts on the Chad day Bell and Laurie

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Speaker 1: Valo case y'all, they know everything about it. So today

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Speaker 1: we're going to continue discussing the case, diving deeper into

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Speaker 1: the chronology of the murders and who carry them out,

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Speaker 1: how the missing children were discuss we'll finish the full

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Speaker 1: scope of this tragedy and lots more.

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Speaker 2: We'll also go on a tangent about the Dark Triad

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Speaker 2: in psychology and where the line is between its different

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Speaker 2: personality disorders, whether money can breed psychopathy, and Lola's term

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Speaker 2: rich guys syndrome about men who don't ask you anything about.

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Speaker 1: Yourself, which spoiler is most of Los Angeles, Yes, not

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Speaker 1: exactly a spoiler Yeah, well for people who don't live

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Speaker 1: in Las Yes, it is most people in Los Angeles,

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Speaker 1: but there is a particular extreme kind and it is

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Speaker 1: totally not relevant to this episode today. But that is

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Speaker 1: the tangent.

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Speaker 5: That is the nature of this show. We go on

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Speaker 5: tangent sometimes we're just like that, what can I say? Yeah?

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Speaker 6: Are we here?

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Speaker 5: Or were we there?

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Speaker 1: Who knows?

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Speaker 6: All right, back to the show.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so yes, before we dive back in with Lauren

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Speaker 1: and John Matthias, who I want to be my parents

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Speaker 1: or at least my best friend, because they're not old

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Speaker 1: enough to be my parents probably, Megan, could you kindly

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Speaker 1: tell me what the coultiest thing that's happened to you

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Speaker 1: this week was? I never can get that great.

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Speaker 6: I'm right, it's.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Okay, I'll tell you anyway, Laura. Okay, so I

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Speaker 2: did a stand up show this week. You came and

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Speaker 2: saw it.

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Speaker 5: Yes, I did, and it was great, thank you.

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Speaker 2: I did a lot of cult jokes, which I'd never

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Speaker 2: done before, so it was exciting. I'm excited to do more.

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Speaker 2: But basically, the comedy club that I performed at sent

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Speaker 2: emails to everybody who performed trying.

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Speaker 5: To get you to take their like classes.

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Speaker 2: Okay, And so I was talking to people and they're like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: they send it, that's just what they do. And they

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Speaker 2: try to get you into the circle of classes that

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Speaker 2: never fucking end, Like as soon as one ends, it's

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Speaker 2: the next one, and it's the next one. And none

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Speaker 2: of these people are actually even getting to do stand up.

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Speaker 2: They're just circling the drain of this class.

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Speaker 1: Graduation show at that one venue. Yeah, and that's the

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Speaker 1: one you've taken that class.

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Speaker 2: Right, Oh I'm sorry, not that class, not that class,

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Speaker 2: A different class. Yeah, that class is amazing, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: the class at the comedy club. Okay, there's a class

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Speaker 2: the comedy club teaches.

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Speaker 6: Got it? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, so they just pull you in.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's like every kind of class to become

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Speaker 1: an entertainer again in Yeast Angeles.

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Speaker 6: I feel like, right, well, if they're shitty, right.

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Speaker 1: Well, is there ever a point though, where they're like,

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Speaker 1: you're done, you've learned.

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Speaker 5: I've had it.

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Speaker 6: I've had that. I've had people be like good, job

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Speaker 6: like stop and even coaches really yeah, which I really admire. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I feel like I feel like most of the I

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Speaker 1: don't know, like acting classes and stuff that I know,

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Speaker 1: like they want you to just like.

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Speaker 6: Continue ongoing forever.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, because you can never learn. You're never done learning,

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Speaker 1: which is true, but also like you should be done

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Speaker 1: spending money at a certain right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, when do I make the money for the classes

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Speaker 2: that are teaching me something to make me money?

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Speaker 5: Right?

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Speaker 1: Acting classes? Well, well this will come up in a

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Speaker 1: future episode. But yeah, it's what was it the point

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Speaker 1: that I was going to make.

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Speaker 2: They're there, they can be bad or they can be good.

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Speaker 2: They can be bad, yeah, but they can be good.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a really interesting point. It just that you've

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Speaker 1: made for me.

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Speaker 2: You're welcome, But yeah, it kind of made me sad.

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Speaker 2: It was a culty uh kind of little reminder that

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Speaker 2: it's just everywhere.

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Speaker 1: And I also just feel like, I also feel bad

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Speaker 1: for businesses because like it is hard to make money

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Speaker 1: and you got to like for sure figure out how

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Speaker 1: to make money, and that's one of the ways. But like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's like leave us alone also, right, you know, I

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Speaker 1: don't know mad respect to anyone who decides to pursue

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Speaker 1: that avenue of the entertainment industry, because boy do I

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Speaker 1: not ever want to do that.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, for my fucking life.

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Speaker 6: It's a lie.

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Speaker 5: What about you? What's the cultiest thing that happened to

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Speaker 5: you this week?

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Speaker 1: Okay, so I have some drama.

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Speaker 6: Oh my god.

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Speaker 5: Okay, let me sit up straight there.

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Speaker 6: It's not my drama.

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Speaker 1: However, it is drama that I am privy to because

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Speaker 1: it sort of centers around my mom.

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Speaker 5: Oh oh.

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Speaker 1: And this is some like big little lies shit. But

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Speaker 1: like if everyone was poor.

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Speaker 6: Oh my god, that's a perfect way of explaining something.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so listen, first of all, I am there's nothing

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Speaker 1: wrong with me. I've been poor for most of my life.

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Speaker 1: I'm just saying, it's not the rich people version of

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Speaker 1: this thing.

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Speaker 6: Okay, I got it.

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Speaker 1: It's it's people who are all sort of desperate for

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Speaker 1: whatever it is that they need their lives at this

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Speaker 1: moment in time. So let's give you some context. Okay, Uh,

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Speaker 1: my mom, as we all know by now, she is

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Speaker 1: a victim of a self proclaimed prophet who is a

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Speaker 1: con man, who you know we believed in when I

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Speaker 1: was a kid, right, So because of this experience, she

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Speaker 1: became involved with this community called the FLDS, these fundamentalist

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Speaker 1: Mormons in that like tiny little town on the border

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Speaker 1: of Utah, Arizona. And basically, my mom's been doing advocacy

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Speaker 1: work there where she's been helping these people and helping

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Speaker 1: this community.

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Speaker 5: She's such an angel.

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Speaker 1: She is a fucking angel. She like gets them food

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Speaker 1: they need food, and like.

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Speaker 6: We create them she brought Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, for anyone who hasn't heard that episode, I'm guessing

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Speaker 2: you'll see it.

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Speaker 1: I wish I could just remember what numbers.

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Speaker 2: Well, if you just take a great guests then people think, oh,

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Speaker 2: it's number six, but she almost remembered.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well that sounds right anyway. Yeah, So basically she's

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Speaker 1: been an advocate for this community, she's been helping them,

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Speaker 1: she's been doing what she refers to as harm reduction

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Speaker 1: because like, obviously we do not condone some of the

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Speaker 1: behaviors that have happened within that community in the past. However,

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Speaker 1: the leader has been in prison for years now, double

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Speaker 1: digits and is not really involved with anything. It's just

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Speaker 1: these like struggling women and children for the most part.

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Speaker 1: Uh oh still believe who still believe largely. But she

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Speaker 1: also helps people get out if they want to get out, Like,

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Speaker 1: there's no like, she's not like a pro polygamy advocate. However,

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Speaker 1: factor in now there is a small group of women

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Speaker 1: who are either former polygamists themselves or in some way

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Speaker 1: harmed by like a similar kind of self proclaimed profit

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Speaker 1: cult eater type of person. In one case, there's one

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Speaker 1: woman who has no experience with the polygamyes, but this

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Speaker 1: has just kind of become her topic. She's an anti

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Speaker 1: polygamy advocate or activist, not advocate. I don't know what

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Speaker 1: the fuck's that.

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Speaker 5: That's strange.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So they basically have decided that polygamy is inherently

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Speaker 1: harmful and anyone who is involved with it in any

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Speaker 1: way is like toxic and bad and abusive.

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Speaker 7: Right.

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Speaker 1: Uh, never mind the fact that the the children and

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Speaker 1: the women who are currently still in the community. If

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Speaker 1: we're saying that the dynamic is inherently abusive. Who's doing

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Speaker 1: the abuse, that's the men who make all of the

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Speaker 1: decisions for the community. So technically those people are victims

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Speaker 1: exactly right. But these this like little faction of women

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Speaker 1: have decided that because my mom is doing harm reduction

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Speaker 1: work for this polygamous community, she's the enemy. She's the enemy.

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Speaker 5: No, not your mama.

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Speaker 1: And also there are there's like one or two, one

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Speaker 1: or two of them were victims of the same man

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Speaker 1: that that victimized her and our family.

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Speaker 5: Oh my goodness.

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Speaker 1: They have decided that they need to basically like take

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Speaker 1: down my mom because she's getting so much media attention,

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Speaker 1: which clearly like stems from a place of a jealousy

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Speaker 1: maybe a little bit. And it's just wild to me

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Speaker 1: because there have been there people have reached like literally

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Speaker 1: actively tried to sabotage her at this point, like emailed

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Speaker 1: her when she was still getting her PhD, like emailed

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Speaker 1: her professors, like looking through everything she's ever done to

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Speaker 1: try to poke holes in it, which like we have

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Speaker 1: literally like physical evidence of everything that happened, and it's

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Speaker 1: not like there's I'm sorry, that's just exactly what happens.

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Speaker 1: Like people edit the story differently at different times, but

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Speaker 1: like that it's I don't know what you're trying to

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Speaker 1: do here, So anyway, it's this just this like intense

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Speaker 1: drama where my mom calls me and she's like, whoa,

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Speaker 1: here's what these women are doing now, And I'm like, bro,

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Speaker 1: like you should be banding together. You guys should be

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Speaker 1: like coming together having a conversation, like harm reduction is

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Speaker 1: a good thing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like what are you just going to comp kind

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Speaker 2: of the equivalent I would think is like setting up

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Speaker 2: places with safe needles for people to do.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like they're going to be doing it anyway.

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Speaker 1: Do you want them to be doing it and starving

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Speaker 1: right or do you want them to be doing it

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Speaker 1: and like maybe even slowly being exposed to some new

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Speaker 1: outside ideas, which is what has been happening because my mom,

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Speaker 1: who's literally like taught them about racism and why it's

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Speaker 1: bad and like how like what sexual assault is and

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Speaker 1: what consent is. Like, she's done so much fucking good

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Speaker 1: for this community. It's insane. So for people to fixate

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Speaker 1: on that and try to take her down. We have

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Speaker 1: we have info that they are like actively trying to

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Speaker 1: maybe even combine forces with the very person who victimized her.

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Speaker 2: The cult leader, Well, that would just be great because

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Speaker 2: then they would be sinking their own ships and Christine

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Speaker 2: can sail into the future.

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Speaker 1: I just this is like, ladies, and in general, like

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Speaker 1: all conflict see seems to me to come from a

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Speaker 1: place of people refusing to look at their own shit. Right,

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Speaker 1: what are your motivations? What is like hurt in you

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Speaker 1: that you have not healed, that you feel like you

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Speaker 1: need to do this external thing to make it feel better, right,

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Speaker 1: like all the toxic masculination and in this case, toxic femininity.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what it is. Yeah, but just like

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Speaker 1: general toxic behavior, if you are trying to take someone down,

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Speaker 1: if you're trying even if it's just like trying to

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Speaker 1: cancel someone, like what look at your interrogate yourself. Are

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Speaker 1: you getting like social validation out of it? Do you

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Speaker 1: feel like you'll get attention from it? Do you feel

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Speaker 1: like if you take that person down you won't have

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Speaker 1: them as competition anymore? Are you just like traumatized and

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Speaker 1: you've sort of transferred your trauma on to a new

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Speaker 1: person who maybe doesn't deserve all. Yeah, yeah, so this

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Speaker 1: is my plea. I doubt that those I'm not gonna

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Speaker 1: call them hose, but I was tempted to call them

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Speaker 1: hose for a second.

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Speaker 6: I'll do it.

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Speaker 1: These broke these women who are clearly hurting. Oh okay,

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Speaker 1: sure hurting us. Aren't we all hurting?

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Speaker 4: Her?

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Speaker 1: Absolutelyting?

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Speaker 5: Ho?

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Speaker 6: I am hurting and hoeing at the same time.

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Speaker 1: Uh, dear hurting hose, all all the hurting hose unite.

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Speaker 1: I would just, you know, I would just beg everyone

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Speaker 1: to look inward before you act outward. Yeah, that's just

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Speaker 1: a sound.

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Speaker 6: That's just a little sound I like in general.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I think that's fair.

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Speaker 1: So anyway, we'll see what happens. Maybe this will turn

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Speaker 1: into our own big little lies, but with not rich

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Speaker 1: people TV show where it's just like plugamy versus anti

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Speaker 1: plgamy versus harm reduction, plugamy versus. I guess that's it.

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Speaker 2: Okay, great, Well, this episode is fucking crazy, fascinating. I

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Speaker 2: can't believe the research these people have done.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, it's so in depth, and we already sad

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Speaker 1: this last week. But I just love them.

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Speaker 6: I want I want to live with you.

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Speaker 5: Want.

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Speaker 6: I want to live with them so badly.

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Speaker 1: We'll go, we'll canner, Can we live with you can.

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Speaker 5: We thank you for listening, enjoy the show. Okay, let's

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Speaker 5: be game.

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Speaker 2: One of the things that I read was that she

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Speaker 2: took out a life insurance plan on Charles that was

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Speaker 2: a million dollars and then he ended up dead. Charles

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Speaker 2: had changed who received his money to his sister, so

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Speaker 2: Laurie didn't get it. And then I read some accounts

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Speaker 2: that said they were pretending to be as crazy as

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Speaker 2: they seem.

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Speaker 6: They knew what they were doing.

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Speaker 2: Tyley saw what actually happened, and they knew they had

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Speaker 2: to get rid of her.

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Speaker 6: And then JJ followed.

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Speaker 2: But like they did believe some of it, but really

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Speaker 2: it was some greed.

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Speaker 7: Shit.

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Speaker 8: Most every crime has what we call the crime trio,

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Speaker 8: which is, you know, sex, greed, and revenge to some degree.

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Speaker 8: And I think you know, our podcast is called Hidden

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Speaker 8: so I think our goal is to really kind of

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Speaker 8: look a little deeper and to find hidden motivations. And

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Speaker 8: we don't disagree that the crime trio drives a lot

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Speaker 8: of crimes. And yes, certainly there's an element of greed

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Speaker 8: here and there's some sex involved, right, there's probably some

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Speaker 8: revenge because Kay Woodcock gets the money and Laurie is

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Speaker 8: really upset that the money didn't go to her. So

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Speaker 8: you could make that argument, but I think when you

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Speaker 8: look at this a little deeper, though, you have to

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Speaker 8: go to those deeper religious motivations, and you have to

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Speaker 8: go to other motivations that are you know, a little

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Speaker 8: bit behind the surface. So that's where we tend to go.

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Speaker 8: You know, these are clearly extreme people with extreme beliefs.

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Speaker 8: And you know, the question for me is always, okay,

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Speaker 8: let's say that it's greed, Why, like, what is it

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Speaker 8: they want the money for? You know, what's the purpose

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Speaker 8: of the money. Is it just the money in and

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Speaker 8: of itself? I mean, in some crimes it is, but

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Speaker 8: in many crimes it's it has to do with something deeper,

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Speaker 8: like social status, or belonging or love. Right, There's there's

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Speaker 8: usually motivations behind those three things, and I think in

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Speaker 8: this case, if you dig deep enough, you start to

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Speaker 8: uncover some of those hidden motivations.

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Speaker 4: I think to add to that, the question is did

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Speaker 4: they really believe this belief system of chads? That would

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Speaker 4: be the ultimate question, right, because were they pretending or

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Speaker 4: were they really driven by this belief system? And I

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Speaker 4: think the answer is they really believed it. This was

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Speaker 4: really a cult with real beliefs, and they really really

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Speaker 4: were certain it was real.

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Speaker 8: Although ironically, ironically, I think Chad's defense may try to

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Speaker 8: use some type of defense based on the idea that

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Speaker 8: he didn't believe it, because that would allow him, that

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Speaker 8: would allow him to pin it on Laurie and say, well,

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Speaker 8: I didn't really believe this, but she took it up

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Speaker 8: as if it was real, and she carried all this

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Speaker 8: out and I didn't think she would right.

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Speaker 4: So luck because we have the speech says I know

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Speaker 4: my books are real.

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Speaker 7: We have so much evidence showing that he believed it.

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Speaker 5: Wow.

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Speaker 1: I was just going to say, like, I also don't

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Speaker 1: think greed and an extreme belief system are mutually exclusive

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Speaker 1: at all, because like, in order to continue to have

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Speaker 1: the followers around you, to continue to like have that power,

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Speaker 1: you need to fund it somehow. You're not like most

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Speaker 1: cult leaders don't want to go out and work a

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Speaker 1: job exactly.

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Speaker 3: Chad definitely didn't want to.

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Speaker 8: But the question is is that the primary motivation, you know,

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Speaker 8: does where does this start? Does it start you know,

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Speaker 8: going back to Chad's childhood, or does it does it

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Speaker 8: start you know, when he's middle.

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Speaker 1: Aged, so throughout all of this, Chad is still married

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Speaker 1: to someone else, right, so Tammy. Right, So let's talk

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Speaker 1: about Tammy. So September eighth, this is still twenty nineteen, right,

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Speaker 1: September eighth. I read that Chad signs and application with

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Speaker 1: Tammy to increase her life insurance policy to the maximum

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Speaker 1: amount allowed in keeping with the greed and belief thing.

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Speaker 4: Correct, and then she ends up being a zombie named Viola.

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Speaker 4: And let me step back a little bit too. Nobody

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Speaker 4: knew this because when this case first came out, it

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Speaker 4: was December twenty nineteen, and they were two dead spouses,

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Speaker 4: so that takes us to Tammy in just a minute,

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Speaker 4: and missing children. But I think it's important to know

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Speaker 4: that before something happened to Tammy, although the world did

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Speaker 4: not yet know he killed Laurie's or not he excuse me,

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Speaker 4: Laurie's children were killed or murdered before Tammy.

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Speaker 1: Before Tammy, right before.

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Speaker 4: Tammy, and they were buried in Chad's yard at his home,

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Speaker 4: and so that I hope that's okay to say that first,

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Speaker 4: even though nobody knew that yet. But the next big tragedy, right,

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Speaker 4: is that all of a sudden at forty nine years old,

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Speaker 4: Tammy allegedly dies in her sleep, but we know now

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Speaker 4: that she was a zombie named Biola and she became

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Speaker 4: dark too, and and she died. And Alex Cox's car

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Speaker 4: was parked nearby and their their church parking lot that night.

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Speaker 4: Man Laurie was out of town, of course she was right, right,

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Speaker 4: and and yeah, no autopsy was performed per Chad's request.

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Speaker 2: So two weeks later, Chad and Laura go get married

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Speaker 2: in Hawaii, right.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't even know if it was a full

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Speaker 4: two weeks, but yeah, they were. They were married in

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Speaker 4: Hawaii with big smiles on their faces and a ukulele

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Speaker 4: in hand and on the beach without a care in

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Speaker 4: the world. In their wedding photos and Hawaii.

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Speaker 1: Both kids are buried in the back insight. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're yeah an understatement.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, tell me about it, right, Yeah, I know this

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Speaker 4: whole case.

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Speaker 3: That's why two years later we're still talking about it.

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Speaker 8: Weird, right, right, because killing your spouse and getting married

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Speaker 8: right away, that's not going to raise suspicions.

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Speaker 1: Truly, right, So they get married. Oh, so JJ was adopted.

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Speaker 3: Right, correct?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, JJ was adopted by Charles and Laurie. But JJ

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Speaker 4: was an actual relative of Charles. He was He was

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Speaker 4: biologically Charles Valow's great nephew. So Charles's sister, Kay Woodcock

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Speaker 4: is biologically JJ's grandmother.

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Speaker 1: Okay, okay, got it, and so Chad sorry. So Charles

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Speaker 1: and Laurie had been raising him as.

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Speaker 4: They adopted him as a baby, so they that JJ

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Speaker 4: was theirs. And it was Charles that had gone to

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Speaker 4: Kay Woodcock, who was also helping to raise JJ with

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Speaker 4: her husband Larry, and said, hey, you know, we'd love

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Speaker 4: to give JJ some sibley and have a child of

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Speaker 4: our own. Laurie and I would be interested in adopting JJ.

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Speaker 4: So they actually initiated that adoption. And so Kay Woodcock,

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Speaker 4: who was Kay Larry Woodcock, who was helping to raise JJ,

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Speaker 4: they were the grandparents, decided it was in JJ's best

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Speaker 4: interest to be given that family.

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Speaker 1: So it's at this time November twenty nineteen when said

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Speaker 1: grandparents asked the police to do a welfare check because

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Speaker 1: they have not heard from JJ in months.

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Speaker 4: Correct, Because they had raised JJ part you know, as

401
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Speaker 4: a baby, they were very close to JJ. And one

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Speaker 4: of their big things when they gave JJ up for

403
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Speaker 4: adoption was we still want to be his grandparents. We

404
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Speaker 4: still want to be considered his grandparents to be a

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Speaker 4: big part of his life. And everyone was great with that,

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Speaker 4: and they were very involved in JJ's life, and they

407
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Speaker 4: could not find JJ. Laurie did not allow JJ to

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Speaker 4: go to Charles's funeral in Louis, even though they were

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Speaker 4: willing to pick JJ up for it and fly in

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Speaker 4: to get him. They started to notice how distant Laurie

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Speaker 4: was and that she was not allowing them to talk

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Speaker 4: to JJ.

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Speaker 3: And so they finally.

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Speaker 4: Found the Rexburg address because Laurie had moved to Rexburg

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Speaker 4: right after Charles was killed in tell anyone where she

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Speaker 4: was moving, and so they found the address through an

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Speaker 4: Amazon account where Laurie had ordered some wedding rings on

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Speaker 4: Charles's account, found the address, said please go check on

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Speaker 4: the children, and that welfare check led to two missing children.

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Speaker 6: Oh god, it's so.

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Speaker 1: Sad, right, And that's sort of when around the time

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Speaker 1: that the general public start like finds out about this case, right,

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Speaker 1: because they're.

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Speaker 3: Like, exactly, it took that well, the cheese kids, it.

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Speaker 4: Took that welfare check and then the apartment or their

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Speaker 4: townhouse in Rexburg, Idaho, Laurie's townhouse was raided, I think

427
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Speaker 4: the day after Thanksgiving, and the public was made where

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Speaker 4: of it in December twenty nineteen that they were looking

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Speaker 4: for Laurie's children.

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Speaker 1: Oh, so they're in Hawaii like chillin'. I watched a

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Speaker 1: video earlier of there was like a there's like a

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Speaker 1: no local news website that where the reporters went out

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Speaker 1: there and followed them and are trying to talk to

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Speaker 1: Chad and Laurie and be like where are your kids?

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Speaker 3: Wear are your kids?

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Speaker 1: And they're just walking along and not answering. It's very

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Speaker 1: chilling to watch, knowing how many murders they have committed

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Speaker 1: at this point. Because they're walking just like you'd see

439
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Speaker 1: a celebrity on the street. As the paparazzi's bothering them,

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Speaker 1: you know, there's a bit of a I mean maybe

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Speaker 1: I'm projecting, but I feel like there's a bit of

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Speaker 1: a smuckness on their face.

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Speaker 3: Totally.

444
00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:49,120
Speaker 4: You're not Yeah, you're totally seeing it. Yeah, the reporter's Nateinen.

445
00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:50,400
Speaker 4: They're walking.

446
00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:52,040
Speaker 3: You know, Chad's lost some weight.

447
00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:55,000
Speaker 4: He's got his new jeans on with jewels on the

448
00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:58,960
Speaker 4: pockets that I'm sure Laurie's purchased him. They're walking, Laurie's

449
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:02,439
Speaker 4: got a little swimsuit, the cover up on. They're walking

450
00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:04,320
Speaker 4: without a care in the world. And the reporter, Nate

451
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:06,720
Speaker 4: Eaton is saying, where are your kids? Where are your kids?

452
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:09,520
Speaker 4: The world is looking for your kids. And finally Lori responds,

453
00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:10,919
Speaker 4: that's great.

454
00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:17,640
Speaker 1: Yep, yep, oh God, So tell us about how we

455
00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:22,600
Speaker 1: finally get to this search warrant that reveals how the

456
00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:23,440
Speaker 1: children died.

457
00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:28,840
Speaker 4: It was summer twenty twenty when they were able to

458
00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:33,479
Speaker 4: do a better search at Chad's yard. Remember it had

459
00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:37,399
Speaker 4: been wintertime in Rexburg, Idaho, so very frozen ground and

460
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:39,639
Speaker 4: he had a very large yard. He lived in a

461
00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:46,240
Speaker 4: very rural area. And they got that search permit and

462
00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:49,800
Speaker 4: it happened fast. They seemed to know exactly where to look.

463
00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,680
Speaker 8: They were able to trace some of their movements from

464
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:54,680
Speaker 8: their cell phones.

465
00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:56,760
Speaker 7: That was a key piece of evidence.

466
00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:01,320
Speaker 8: They talked to people who has eventually said like Melanie

467
00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:04,359
Speaker 8: Gibb was one of the players that was involved with Chad.

468
00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:08,639
Speaker 8: Chad and Laurie had told her not to talk to

469
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:10,600
Speaker 8: the police, and if she did talk to the police,

470
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:14,000
Speaker 8: to tell them that the children were with Ka, so

471
00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:17,080
Speaker 8: they basically asked her to lie. So there were a

472
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:19,520
Speaker 8: lot of small pieces of evidence that started adding up

473
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:21,240
Speaker 8: over time. But I think one of the key pieces

474
00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:25,760
Speaker 8: of evidence was the cell phones and tracing the self

475
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:27,719
Speaker 8: movements of the cell phones around the times that they

476
00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:30,760
Speaker 8: suspected the children were missing and around the times when

477
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:33,640
Speaker 8: they were less seen, and those cell phones brought them

478
00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,640
Speaker 8: back to Chad's yard and in fact they were able

479
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,600
Speaker 8: to kind of pinpoint the exact places based on that information.

480
00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:44,200
Speaker 4: It was the pings of Alex Cox's cell phone because

481
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:46,560
Speaker 4: he was helping to bury the children.

482
00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,200
Speaker 2: And this was a pet cemetery that they're burying these

483
00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:51,200
Speaker 2: children in correct.

484
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:54,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, Tyley was buried at the pet cemetery. They actually

485
00:23:54,400 --> 00:24:00,520
Speaker 4: were a bit apart, and Jag was buried elsewhere and

486
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:03,040
Speaker 4: Tylie's body was.

487
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:06,840
Speaker 3: It was awful how she was found.

488
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:12,480
Speaker 4: Jj was found in duct tape in the pajamas he

489
00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:14,840
Speaker 4: was last the last photo of them was taken in

490
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:17,560
Speaker 4: red pajamas and he was found on those pajamas.

491
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:18,760
Speaker 3: With duct tape around him.

492
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:27,640
Speaker 4: And then Tyley's body was mutilated and melted in different buckets.

493
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:35,240
Speaker 1: Wow, who actually committed the murders?

494
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:36,160
Speaker 3: Physically?

495
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 4: We are still waiting for police to tell us for certain.

496
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 4: We feel that it was Alex. We believe at this

497
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:52,879
Speaker 4: point that it was Alex Cox who committed the actual murders.

498
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 1: And he died so but he died of alleged natural causes.

499
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 1: Was there a autopsy performed on him.

500
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 4: There was an autopsy performed on him, and they say

501
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,399
Speaker 4: he died of a lungclo pulmonary embolism.

502
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:11,959
Speaker 1: Okay, do we think that that's just coincidental.

503
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:15,480
Speaker 4: Or I think we can all speculate. He had just

504
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:17,800
Speaker 4: gotten married two weeks earlier to one of the cult

505
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:22,000
Speaker 4: members named Zulemma. She controlled the elements according to Chad,

506
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,679
Speaker 4: the weather that's nice, and Chad told him to get married.

507
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:29,119
Speaker 4: And it was two weeks after he got married to

508
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:33,560
Speaker 4: her that he died in death. And he had also

509
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:36,639
Speaker 4: received a blessing from Chad that morning. He called Chad

510
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:40,000
Speaker 4: in Hawaii, and we know that Chad gave him a

511
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 4: blessing over the phone, like an LDS type blessing. We

512
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 4: don't know what happened after that he died. I speculate

513
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 4: it could be suicide, but according to the autopsy, that's

514
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 4: all we've got.

515
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:56,160
Speaker 7: He also gave Zulemma, his.

516
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:00,480
Speaker 8: Wife of two weeks at the time, a bag of

517
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,639
Speaker 8: money with roughly seven thousand dollars in it, which was

518
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 8: all his savings. So he gave that to her a

519
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 8: day or two before his death. So again, that seems

520
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:13,920
Speaker 8: really suspicious, right, Like, that's not a typical Wow, that's

521
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:15,959
Speaker 8: not a typical thing you would do unless you were

522
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:17,840
Speaker 8: anticipating something happening.

523
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, And I don't want to contradict the autopsy.

524
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:23,040
Speaker 4: I believe the autopsy is accurate. He died of a

525
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:27,239
Speaker 4: pulmonary embolism, but I am curious, well, what could have caused, right,

526
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:28,640
Speaker 4: suppulmonary Right?

527
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:31,440
Speaker 8: The issue is whether you could could could someone create

528
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:33,639
Speaker 8: that on their own? In other words, could not be

529
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 8: a form of suicide? And how would you how would

530
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 8: you commit that act of suicide, you know, to.

531
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:44,800
Speaker 4: Lead to that if it was completely natural? That is

532
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 4: one of the most coincidental crazy meal de mean.

533
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:52,840
Speaker 6: I wonder if they told him he was a zombie.

534
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:55,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, or if he needed to go to the other

535
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:59,440
Speaker 4: side to continue his work right now it was his.

536
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:00,639
Speaker 3: Time, right.

537
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:04,720
Speaker 1: What is the current status of Chad day Bell and Laurie.

538
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:10,359
Speaker 4: They have been charged in Tammy's death in JJ's death

539
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:14,119
Speaker 4: in Tyler's death first degree. Laurie day Bell has also

540
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 4: been charged in her husband's death in Arizona, and then

541
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:24,080
Speaker 4: this week something we haven't even talked about yet because

542
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:26,200
Speaker 4: this is why you need a flow chart with this case,

543
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:32,880
Speaker 4: but Laurie's niece Melanie, who we see someone also believing

544
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:38,720
Speaker 4: Chad Daybell and moved to Rexburg, left her husband, and

545
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:41,639
Speaker 4: somebody tried and her husband's name was Brandon Budreaux. So

546
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:45,960
Speaker 4: Melanie and Brandon Budreau. Melanie is Laurie's niece. She left

547
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:49,000
Speaker 4: to go live with Alex and Laurie and Rexburg, and

548
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 4: then somebody tried to kill her husband, Brandon. Charges came

549
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,359
Speaker 4: down this week finally, and that was in October of

550
00:27:56,359 --> 00:28:00,800
Speaker 4: twenty nineteen where that attempted murder happened. That it looks

551
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:05,480
Speaker 4: like in Gilbert, Arizona, that Laurie and Chad will be

552
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 4: charged with attempted murder in Brandon Boudreau's shooting, and that

553
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 4: they say Alex would have the same charges if he

554
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:19,240
Speaker 4: were alive, and that they believe it was Alex Brandon.

555
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 6: Wow.

556
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:26,359
Speaker 1: Wow, So they essentially have a hitman working for them

557
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:31,399
Speaker 1: to carry out all of their extremist crazy.

558
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, leefs, I know there's no answer to this, but

559
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 2: do you guys think that Well, Number one, Laurie's already

560
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 2: in prison.

561
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 6: Correct, they're both in prison, like they're.

562
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 8: Hell, they're both awaiting trial. Laurie was actually deemed incompetent

563
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 8: to stand trial, So.

564
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 7: That's going to be a waiting game there.

565
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 6: Do you think she's ever going to be like, holy shit,

566
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 6: what just happened?

567
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 1: Well, what I was going to ask was why is

568
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 1: it that she was deemed unfit, yeah, to stand try out? Like,

569
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 1: what is her mental state that we know as far

570
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 1: as we know, Yeah.

571
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 7: We don't know a huge amount.

572
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 8: There's speculation that the diagnosis is getz to effective disorder,

573
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:11,479
Speaker 8: which is essentially schizophrenia with a mood disorder, So in

574
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 8: this case, probably depression. But there is some speculation that,

575
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,720
Speaker 8: to answer your guys's question, that maybe she was confronting

576
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 8: the hard reality of what occurred and her role in it,

577
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 8: and perhaps that led to some type of psychotic break.

578
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 6: It's possible that would be the only justice.

579
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, god, I mean, she's such an extreme

580
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 1: example because generally, you know, one of the missions of

581
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 1: our show is to sort of talk about how everyone

582
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:46,880
Speaker 1: is susceptible to indoctrination and manipulation and coercion. Laurie is

583
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 1: just such a unique case because she just was like

584
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 1: ready for it, Like she was already right there.

585
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 3: She was trying.

586
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, which is not how it generally works. I don't

587
00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 1: want to make anyone think that, like anyone, you know,

588
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:04,240
Speaker 1: if someone hasn't listened to other episodes of our show,

589
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 1: this is very very uncommon. Like most people are victims

590
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 1: of their cult leader and it is like a result

591
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 1: of a long process of indoctrination. And She's just such

592
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 1: an interesting case because of that. I'm like, what is

593
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 1: her state of mind? Like that is always the question, right.

594
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 4: Well, here's something to point out though about how everyone

595
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 4: is susceptible is the children. So remember this, This hit

596
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 4: the news of missing children in December twenty nineteen, and

597
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 4: the children were not found until dece until the summer

598
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 4: of twenty twenty. Between that time, many many people in

599
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 4: this small community of Rexburg, Idaho stood by Chad. They

600
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 4: just would not and could not believe that Chad day

601
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:59,240
Speaker 4: Bell was part of this Wow, you know, that whole

602
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 4: denying of Evan. It didn't whatn't matter what evidence or

603
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 4: what things the media shared, people would say absolutely not.

604
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:10,760
Speaker 4: I know him, I know his heart, I believe him,

605
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 4: he didn't have anything to do with this, And then

606
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 4: the bodies were found. Additionally, in Arizona, there were so

607
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 4: many people who just thought Laurie was the most wonderful mother.

608
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:23,640
Speaker 3: And so I think in that point, you know, and

609
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 3: the mission of.

610
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 4: Your podcast, there's some truth to that that Chad Daybell

611
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 4: fooled a lot of people. There might have been only

612
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 4: one Lori day Bell, but he went under the radar

613
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 4: as a normal, wonderful family man for so long and

614
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 4: as a humble, soft spoken, you know, human being, where

615
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 4: this man is a serial killer and was just waiting

616
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 4: for the right moment.

617
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 6: Right.

618
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 8: It's also interesting that when Chad was first arrested, some

619
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 8: of our sources were telling us that he would repeat

620
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 8: over and over in jail that he couldn't believe. He

621
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 8: didn't understand why he was there, He couldn't believe he'd

622
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 8: been arrested. He couldn't believe he was in jail, you know. So,

623
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 8: I mean it's almost as if Chad believed that if

624
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 8: he didn't commit the actual crimes, right, if he didn't

625
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:25,480
Speaker 8: commit the actual murders, then he probably didn't have anything

626
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 8: to do with it.

627
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 7: Like I think he's convinced himself.

628
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 8: That's why they brought in Alex Cotch, right, because clearly

629
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 8: this is someone who's not part of the true crime community, right,

630
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 8: because he doesn't understand that involvement goes beyond just pulling

631
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 8: the trigger.

632
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:39,960
Speaker 1: Right.

633
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 8: But I think there was I think there was genuine

634
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 8: confusion to him because he really, even though he was

635
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 8: the mastermind behind the whole operation, there was a part

636
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 8: of him that genuinely felt like he had been he

637
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 8: had been wronged, and that he was sitting in jail

638
00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 8: for no good reason.

639
00:32:58,320 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 3: I also want to say this too.

640
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 4: I listened to you wonderful episode about narcissistic dads, and

641
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 4: Chad's five children still stand by him. They say absolutely

642
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 4: did not do it, that he was framed, And so

643
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,000
Speaker 4: I think, again the point I want to reiterate is

644
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:21,000
Speaker 4: Chad has fooled and has still fooled a lot of people.

645
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 7: You know.

646
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 4: I think if his wife, Tammy, I'm sure it was

647
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 4: a very difficult marriage, and she probably stayed in it

648
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 4: because she was a good wife and a good mother.

649
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,960
Speaker 4: And I can't imagine the emotional abuse she suffered. But

650
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 4: I think even if Tammy fully grasped who Chad was,

651
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:39,480
Speaker 4: she would have bailed, you know. But I just think

652
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 4: that he was he in some ways he was a

653
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 4: cult leader to his family. In some ways he he's

654
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 4: a cult leader to his community. So in that sense,

655
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 4: he has fooled a lot of people, and his children

656
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:56,239
Speaker 4: still to this day don't see their dad for who

657
00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 4: he is.

658
00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 8: Well. Also, people play different roles, you know, we had

659
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 8: different roles and we act out those roles. So his

660
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 8: role as father to his kids could have been very

661
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 8: different than his role to the cult or cult members.

662
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:10,400
Speaker 6: Oh this case.

663
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 1: Are there any communications that we've seen in the case

664
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 1: between Chad and Laurie showing the extent to which he

665
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:23,799
Speaker 1: was directing and she was obeying versus her having ideas.

666
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 4: Yes, we have had so many documents come forward because

667
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:32,839
Speaker 4: this is a multi state case with multiple charges. Right,

668
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:36,480
Speaker 4: We've got two separate cases in Arizona and then we

669
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 4: have Idaho. There has been all of these public record

670
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:46,400
Speaker 4: requests and we've read now through over three thousand pages

671
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 4: of documents from text messages and emails and thought processes.

672
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 3: Which are just bizarre.

673
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:56,920
Speaker 4: You know, I think the most bizarre part of this

674
00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 4: case is the most bizarre is really real. Know, it's

675
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 4: everything that people speculated at the beginning, from zombies and portals,

676
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 4: and it's just crazy.

677
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:06,520
Speaker 3: It's all real.

678
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:10,320
Speaker 4: So that's the first amazing part of the document release.

679
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 4: You know that, yeah, this this is real. These are

680
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 4: this is all very real. But there's text messages always

681
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 4: between Chad and the group, and so it's it was Lori,

682
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:23,680
Speaker 4: but it was also a woman named Zulemma. It was

683
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 4: her niece, Melanie Boudreau. It was a woman named Melanie Gibb.

684
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:31,880
Speaker 4: So there there are all these players, and Chad was

685
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 4: definitely calling the shots. They would they would reach out, hey, Chad,

686
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 4: can you tell me about this? Can you tell me

687
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 4: about that? And he would tell people who was light

688
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:43,759
Speaker 4: and who was dark. He would tell people where they

689
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:45,920
Speaker 4: needed to move, what they needed to do, who they

690
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:53,360
Speaker 4: needed to marry, so throughout everything. As unhealthy of a

691
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:58,239
Speaker 4: person as Lorie Dabell is, it was definitely Chad who

692
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:04,880
Speaker 4: was the ring leader very much s the.

693
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 8: In the last set of documents that were released, which

694
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 8: had to do with Charles's death and murder, there's a

695
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:15,600
Speaker 8: line in the very last paragraph that essentially says I

696
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:18,600
Speaker 8: think it was from to the Zulemma or from Zulemma

697
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 8: that says that nobody did anything without Chad's knowledge or direction.

698
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:26,840
Speaker 8: So you know, there's there's a little pieces of evidence

699
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,799
Speaker 8: scattered throughout this case that show that also he was

700
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 8: responsible for the whole system of light and dark. So

701
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:36,800
Speaker 8: in some ways that's what set this is what sets

702
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:40,279
Speaker 8: this whole plot in motion, right, you don't you don't

703
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:43,960
Speaker 8: get to the murders without designating people as zombies are

704
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:46,360
Speaker 8: dark and Chad was behind all of that.

705
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:48,800
Speaker 4: Right, essentially dehumanization.

706
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's like Charles, It's like Charles Manson with

707
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:55,840
Speaker 1: like a squeaky from like squeaky herself is a little

708
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 1: she's not exactly the most stable person, but she's not

709
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 1: doing these murders without Charles Manton being like do people

710
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:04,200
Speaker 1: need to die? Yeah?

711
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:06,280
Speaker 3: Exactly, right, exactly.

712
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 2: I can't wait to follow along with this because are

713
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:11,840
Speaker 2: you guys going to do it throughout the trial and everything?

714
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:12,760
Speaker 6: Is that the planner?

715
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:14,279
Speaker 7: Yeah, that's the plan.

716
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:17,759
Speaker 4: We were just on Dateline actually, oh yeah, we were

717
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:20,440
Speaker 4: just interviewed by ke Keith Morrison and we were on

718
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:24,880
Speaker 4: the latest amazing Datelight episode, sharing our knowledge and our thoughts,

719
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 4: and we do plan to see this through and keep going.

720
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:32,560
Speaker 4: I think another thing we can talk about too, you

721
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 4: know John's you know knowledge is so helpful, but I thought,

722
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:39,759
Speaker 4: you know, to also just discuss the qualities in a

723
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:40,400
Speaker 4: cult leader.

724
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 3: I listened to your podcast, so I thought this.

725
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:45,839
Speaker 6: I think, yes, yes, yes, totally.

726
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:50,399
Speaker 4: From from a forensic psychologist perspective. I think that he's

727
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 4: taught me a lot about what even makes a cult leader,

728
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:56,719
Speaker 4: because someone like Chatty's not charismatic or warring. Jest, what

729
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 4: is it?

730
00:37:57,160 --> 00:37:58,720
Speaker 3: What do they all have in common?

731
00:37:58,880 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 8: Right?

732
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 4: What's the Cammon denominator?

733
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 7: There's something called.

734
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:08,320
Speaker 8: The dark Triad, which consists of narcissism, Machiavelianism, and psychopathy.

735
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:12,359
Speaker 8: So narcissism, I think we all know what that is.

736
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 8: Machiavelianism is essentially someone who will do whatever they can

737
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:20,440
Speaker 8: to get power and stay in power, and whatever it

738
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 8: takes essentially to have power and to maintain power. So

739
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 8: that can involve deception, line cheating, you know, seeing things

740
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 8: as transactional rather than seeing people for the human means

741
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 8: they are, you just see them as a means to

742
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:39,880
Speaker 8: an end you objectify people, and then psychopathy is a

743
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:42,800
Speaker 8: little bit harder to find, but the research shows that

744
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:47,040
Speaker 8: it's it's essentially someone who lacks distress emotions, so they

745
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:50,840
Speaker 8: don't feel sadness, they don't feel fear, they have low empathy.

746
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 8: There's different definitions of psychopathy, but those three characteristics you know, narcissism, machiavelianism,

747
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 8: and psychopathy. That's called dark triad. So people have added

748
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:06,120
Speaker 8: to that, by the way, over the years. So there's

749
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:08,799
Speaker 8: a dark tet trap which is which adds sadism to

750
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:12,879
Speaker 8: that mix. And then there's people that have brought in paranoia.

751
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:16,200
Speaker 8: As you know, one of the things like Saddam Hussein

752
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:18,520
Speaker 8: and Stalin and Hitler all having common is they were

753
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:22,920
Speaker 8: super paranoid. Also, if you're throw in something called a

754
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 8: Messiah complex. So Hitler for example, thought that he was

755
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:30,040
Speaker 8: the chosen one to deliver Germany to greatness. In fact,

756
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 8: his slogan was make Germany great again, wow, and he

757
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:37,440
Speaker 8: very much believed that he was chosen to do that.

758
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:41,960
Speaker 8: So more recently, though, there's there's been some research on

759
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:44,800
Speaker 8: what's called the de factor. This is like twenty eighteen,

760
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 8: so it's pretty new, but the de factor refers to

761
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:51,799
Speaker 8: the dark factor, and it basically encompasses a lot of

762
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 8: the qualities were that I just mentioned, in addition to

763
00:39:55,080 --> 00:40:00,800
Speaker 8: some things like moral disengagement, a sense of entitlement, bite fulness.

764
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:04,279
Speaker 8: So there's some some additional factors that kind of fit

765
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:06,520
Speaker 8: under that. But I think one of the things the

766
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:10,400
Speaker 8: research is uncovering is that a lot of cult leaders

767
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:14,879
Speaker 8: and a lot of very destructive human beings they tend

768
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:18,520
Speaker 8: to kind of have some of these elements and at

769
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:21,359
Speaker 8: the very least they fit under kind of this this

770
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:26,680
Speaker 8: defactor category. Right, So to me, you know, to me,

771
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:28,600
Speaker 8: one of the key components of all of this is

772
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:31,240
Speaker 8: just the utter lack of empathy, you know, the the

773
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:33,839
Speaker 8: the willingness to see human beings as objects and to

774
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:36,279
Speaker 8: not care what happens to them, to not care if

775
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:39,359
Speaker 8: they experience pain and suffering. Right, it's just to use

776
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:40,759
Speaker 8: people as a means to an end.

777
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 1: I tend to get confused about the lines between the

778
00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 1: different dark triad yeah disorders, because to me, so many

779
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 1: there's so much overlap, and a lot of people look

780
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:55,880
Speaker 1: at and be like, well, they're all of those. It

781
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:58,600
Speaker 1: just depends on you know, like, how do you what's

782
00:40:58,600 --> 00:40:59,120
Speaker 1: the difference.

783
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:03,400
Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean, it is a big problem. There's no

784
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:08,040
Speaker 8: you're right, there's no clear differentiation between all of those

785
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:11,839
Speaker 8: elements that they tend to overlap a lot, which was

786
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:14,040
Speaker 8: which was one of the reasons this article called the

787
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:16,960
Speaker 8: dark Core personality that I talked about, it was twenty

788
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:20,200
Speaker 8: eighteen by a group of German researchers, was so important

789
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:22,960
Speaker 8: because they basically said, look, you know, you're right, like

790
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:26,120
Speaker 8: narcissism and psychopathy tend to share a lot in common.

791
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:29,840
Speaker 8: Psychopathy is probably a smaller subset of narcissism, for example,

792
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:33,080
Speaker 8: or antisocial personality disorder. But what the what the German

793
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:38,440
Speaker 8: researchers said was what really matters is that that people

794
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 8: who fit these categories tend to have kind of these

795
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:43,560
Speaker 8: dark factors. They're not going to have all of them,

796
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:46,400
Speaker 8: but they'll have some of them. It's some combination of

797
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:50,239
Speaker 8: those factors that leads to you know, really miscreant in

798
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:53,719
Speaker 8: antisocial behavior or harmful behavior. So I think I think

799
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 8: they're kind of trying to redefine things a little bit,

800
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:59,120
Speaker 8: whereas like the dark triad, You're right, there's there's a

801
00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:02,360
Speaker 8: lot of overlap between the different elements it's kind of

802
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:04,719
Speaker 8: hard to sort them out, but I think we're getting

803
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:07,520
Speaker 8: a little bit better at making those distinctions.

804
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:10,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm I mean, just as a psychology nerd, I

805
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 1: will be so interested to see how the terminology changes

806
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:17,600
Speaker 1: and how the labels are sort of redefined and reframed

807
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:21,320
Speaker 1: as time goes on, because I imagine there's more research

808
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:24,120
Speaker 1: to be done there. Yeah, in terms of just like

809
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:29,080
Speaker 1: day to day life from your perspective, what would be

810
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:32,960
Speaker 1: some like just little basic red flags to look out

811
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:36,600
Speaker 1: for as signs of those dark core personality traits.

812
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:39,040
Speaker 8: I sometimes tell people if you're going on a date,

813
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:41,560
Speaker 8: and there's a couple of things you probably want to

814
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:44,400
Speaker 8: look for. Like the first thing is does the person

815
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:48,320
Speaker 8: pay attention to you? Does the person show any empathy?

816
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:50,440
Speaker 8: So if you go on a date and the other

817
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:53,879
Speaker 8: person is talking about themselves endlessly and they never once

818
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:56,799
Speaker 8: asked how your day was, or how you're doing or

819
00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:59,080
Speaker 8: what's important to you, that's a red flag.

820
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I just I'll get back to you

821
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:03,680
Speaker 1: in one second, but just to quickly interrupt. So I've

822
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:05,600
Speaker 1: gone on a bunch of dates with people from the

823
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 1: app Riah, which there are a lot of like celebrities

824
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:09,920
Speaker 1: on that app, and I will joke about it to

825
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:13,800
Speaker 1: my girlfriends because I call it rich guy syndrome where

826
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:16,440
Speaker 1: you go out with with one of these like celebrities

827
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:18,600
Speaker 1: or very successful people and they don't ask you a

828
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:22,840
Speaker 1: single question about yourself, And I'm like, what is the

829
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:25,319
Speaker 1: deal with this like rich guy thing?

830
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:28,920
Speaker 7: I don't think it's on anymore. There used to be

831
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:31,160
Speaker 7: a show called I can't.

832
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:33,200
Speaker 8: Remember her name. It was a dating show. It was

833
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 8: like an on Bravo.

834
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 6: Oh Patty Patty Patti singer.

835
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:39,240
Speaker 7: Patty Patty, Yes, Patty, thank.

836
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:43,839
Speaker 1: You means ready, Yes, pat I've been waiting my whole

837
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 1: life for this kind of quiz.

838
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:47,920
Speaker 7: Billionaire Matchmaker, Yeah, that's it.

839
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:49,240
Speaker 6: Oh, it's a great show.

840
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:51,040
Speaker 7: So I love.

841
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:54,360
Speaker 8: Reality shows because what better medium for a psychologists to

842
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:55,640
Speaker 8: like dipsychico well.

843
00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:57,319
Speaker 7: One other things.

844
00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:01,200
Speaker 8: If you watch Millionaire Matchmaker, it's very similar Lola in

845
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 8: the sense that like it's so interesting that you know,

846
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 8: they take these millionaires and try to set them up,

847
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:09,759
Speaker 8: but not a single one of them has empathy, not

848
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 8: a single one of them is like, they're all entitled,

849
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 8: they're all self absorbed. I take it back, I think

850
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:18,400
Speaker 8: maybe there was you know, maybe one or two of

851
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:22,040
Speaker 8: our episodes, you know, there were a couple of dates

852
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:26,880
Speaker 8: where they had like a mile amount of empathy, you know.

853
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 8: But it is a really fascinating thing to watch. But

854
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:33,279
Speaker 8: it's a problem, right, because these are the types of

855
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:35,279
Speaker 8: people that are going to run their business in a

856
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:38,600
Speaker 8: very sub human way. Right, They're going to be more

857
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:41,040
Speaker 8: concerned about profit than people. They're going to do all

858
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:43,120
Speaker 8: the thing. If I were to run a business, for example,

859
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:45,480
Speaker 8: my first concern would be the people and how they

860
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:49,359
Speaker 8: are treated and that they're treated well and compensated well. Right,

861
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:52,120
Speaker 8: I'd want fairness and I'd want people to feel valued,

862
00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:54,120
Speaker 8: and but that's not what you see on that show.

863
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 3: Yeah.

864
00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:58,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, And this is such a divergent This is such

865
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 1: a has nothing to do with anything. But like I

866
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:04,319
Speaker 1: also know that there are studies that show that, you know,

867
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:09,440
Speaker 1: making more money directly correlates to having less empathy. And

868
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:11,640
Speaker 1: so it makes one wonder And we've talked about this

869
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:15,120
Speaker 1: a bit before, like ken having more money sort of

870
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:21,880
Speaker 1: foster sociopathic or narcissistic tendencies, you know whatever, just a

871
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:23,280
Speaker 1: side Well.

872
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:25,439
Speaker 7: I think it it. Yeah, that's right.

873
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:31,440
Speaker 8: That's a really interesting question because I think psychopaths probably

874
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:34,600
Speaker 8: have some genetic propensity. But if you take money, if

875
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:37,640
Speaker 8: you add money to the mix, it certainly doesn't help

876
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:40,320
Speaker 8: in the sense that you lose sight of what's really important.

877
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 8: You see the money as becoming more important than the people,

878
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 8: than the relationships. So I agree money does not help.

879
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:51,279
Speaker 8: Lots and lots of money certainly doesn't help someone stay

880
00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 8: grounded unless they're already grounded. So so getting back to

881
00:45:57,239 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 8: the date, so the other so the if you go

882
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:01,600
Speaker 8: on a date, or anyone goes on a date and

883
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:03,720
Speaker 8: someone doesn't have any empathy, that's a red flag.

884
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:04,840
Speaker 7: That's a problem.

885
00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:07,799
Speaker 4: Yeah, but there is love bombing that happens too. So

886
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:10,399
Speaker 4: she's talking more than just the love bombing, like someone

887
00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:13,319
Speaker 4: saying you're so beautiful, you're so wonderful, I'm gonna treat you.

888
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:16,200
Speaker 3: Well, that's not empathy. I just want to ry.

889
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:16,600
Speaker 7: No.

890
00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:19,719
Speaker 1: Actually, that's a really important distinction. I have friends who

891
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:23,800
Speaker 1: are drawn to sort of these kinds of personality types,

892
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:26,240
Speaker 1: and they will mistake love bombing.

893
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:26,960
Speaker 6: Yes, for empathy.

894
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:29,040
Speaker 1: So I think that's a really important distinction.

895
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:32,560
Speaker 8: Right, because love bombing is a manipulation. Right, If you

896
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:34,239
Speaker 8: go on a date with someone and you sit down

897
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 8: and the first thing they ask you is how are

898
00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 8: you doing?

899
00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:37,439
Speaker 7: How is your day?

900
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:40,920
Speaker 8: And they continue to like really show interest in you

901
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:43,799
Speaker 8: in a genuine way. You know, that's probably a good sign.

902
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:46,960
Speaker 8: In fact, a client I worked with who was having

903
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:49,640
Speaker 8: problems in her marriage and got divorced and started dating again.

904
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 8: She told a story of a date just like that

905
00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:55,600
Speaker 8: where the guy in this case it was a guy

906
00:46:55,880 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 8: asked how she was and was very empathic and she said,

907
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:01,200
Speaker 8: and you know what, I'm going to marry this guy.

908
00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:03,759
Speaker 8: And she did and it's worked out well. So I

909
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 8: think empathy is a really critical variable in this equation.

910
00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:09,520
Speaker 8: And the other thing is so it's kind of a

911
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:13,839
Speaker 8: two pronged situation. The other thing is blame. Again, if

912
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:16,400
Speaker 8: you're going on that date, it's always an interesting question

913
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:19,440
Speaker 8: to ask somebody, how did your last relationship end?

914
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:20,120
Speaker 6: Yeah?

915
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:24,240
Speaker 8: Right, And maybe that's sometimes maybe that's getting too personal.

916
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:28,320
Speaker 8: But if the person starts blaming their ex or whoever

917
00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:31,880
Speaker 8: it is, you know, partner, if they just start throwing

918
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:33,640
Speaker 8: them under the bus, that's.

919
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:34,040
Speaker 7: A bad sign.

920
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:40,000
Speaker 8: Yeah, because because and again, psychopaths don't take responsibility for anything.

921
00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:43,759
Speaker 8: They blame, they project, they deny, they lie, they cheat,

922
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:47,400
Speaker 8: they steal, it's never their responsibility, which is really ironic,

923
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:50,319
Speaker 8: right because you get a guy like Saddam Hussein or

924
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:54,879
Speaker 8: somebody in power that has all this power, you would think, well,

925
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:57,239
Speaker 8: they don't have to do that, right that, why don't

926
00:47:57,239 --> 00:47:59,399
Speaker 8: they just be honest they're already in power. But that's

927
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:03,720
Speaker 8: not the way it works. They get to power by blaming,

928
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:07,000
Speaker 8: in lying and deception and whatever else.

929
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:09,360
Speaker 6: So and then they keep the power by doing the

930
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:09,839
Speaker 6: same ship.

931
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:13,040
Speaker 8: Yeah exactly. So that's that's where the machia valianism comes in.

932
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:16,040
Speaker 8: That they keep the power by using people as it

933
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:17,880
Speaker 8: means to an end or doing whatever they.

934
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:18,920
Speaker 7: Have to can to stay in power.

935
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:20,520
Speaker 3: So caveat.

936
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:24,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, fresh out of my breakups, I did a lot

937
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:27,080
Speaker 1: of blaming. So if someone were to ask.

938
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:31,080
Speaker 4: Me, I'll probably blame my ex So yeah, so what

939
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:34,480
Speaker 4: we do and even if it's a habit and all

940
00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:36,319
Speaker 4: of the exes are crazy.

941
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:37,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's exactly exactly.

942
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:39,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good point.

943
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:41,319
Speaker 7: Yeah, and you know, in some cases it might be true.

944
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:43,759
Speaker 8: If you're if you're dating the total psychopath, then yeah,

945
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:47,319
Speaker 8: blame away. Like there's studying, there's there's going to be

946
00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:49,960
Speaker 8: some element of truthfulness in some of those scenarios. But

947
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:52,080
Speaker 8: I think the point, the point I'm making is that

948
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:56,200
Speaker 8: relationships are still reciprocal to some degree and right, no

949
00:48:56,239 --> 00:48:59,279
Speaker 8: matter how bad they are, we usually play some role,

950
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:01,960
Speaker 8: even if it's and I think it's healthier to acknowledge

951
00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:03,000
Speaker 8: that role totally.

952
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:05,520
Speaker 4: And I think it's the pattern too. As you said,

953
00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:07,839
Speaker 4: like at this point most people have had more than

954
00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:10,759
Speaker 4: one X. Are we blaming all of them? Or are

955
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:13,000
Speaker 4: we just blaming a couple of really good points?

956
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:13,720
Speaker 7: Right exactly?

957
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:16,600
Speaker 8: So if you're on that date with the person with

958
00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:20,880
Speaker 8: rich guys syndrome and that person is blaming every single

959
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:25,799
Speaker 8: you know, previous person the fur their demise, then yeah,

960
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:27,239
Speaker 8: that's a red flag, right.

961
00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:31,040
Speaker 1: Thank you for that. I think those are all excellent points.

962
00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:33,319
Speaker 1: Is there anything else that you guys.

963
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:34,520
Speaker 3: Would like people to know?

964
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:37,880
Speaker 1: Any final thoughts? And then of course we can share

965
00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:39,240
Speaker 1: your socials and stuff.

966
00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:43,240
Speaker 4: I really admire the messages I've heard on your podcast

967
00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:49,040
Speaker 4: so far, which is anyone can fall into a cult trap,

968
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:52,760
Speaker 4: you know, if someone has all the answers, if someone

969
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:55,600
Speaker 4: tells you or you think that someone has all the answers,

970
00:49:56,640 --> 00:49:59,040
Speaker 4: whether it's someone you're dating or someone that wants you

971
00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:00,560
Speaker 4: to join a group or religion.

972
00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:03,560
Speaker 3: It usually is too good to be true.

973
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:07,640
Speaker 4: And I think we're all susceptible, and like I said,

974
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:11,879
Speaker 4: even though we're not all Lori Valo dabl I think

975
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:15,520
Speaker 4: the message is how many people believe Chad up until

976
00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:19,160
Speaker 4: the moment his children were found in his yard. How

977
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:22,399
Speaker 4: many people thought he was such a wonderful guy, from

978
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:27,640
Speaker 4: the preparing the people founders, to his children, to his neighbors,

979
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:30,040
Speaker 4: to those who went to church with And I think

980
00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:32,759
Speaker 4: also to listen to people who have a different thought.

981
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:36,680
Speaker 4: There is somebody in the day bell case, the new Chad,

982
00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:40,280
Speaker 4: that was trying to sound the alarm, and she wasn't

983
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:44,920
Speaker 4: listened to. She wasn't listened to by church leaders or anyone,

984
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:47,840
Speaker 4: and she knew Chad very very well. You know, if

985
00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:50,840
Speaker 4: we're with someone or we're in a relationship, we're someone

986
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:53,480
Speaker 4: as serious concerns and somebody sounding the alarm, I think

987
00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:57,680
Speaker 4: we need to listen to. I think, you know, so

988
00:50:57,920 --> 00:50:59,200
Speaker 4: those are my final thoughts.

989
00:50:59,400 --> 00:50:59,640
Speaker 7: Yeah.

990
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:04,200
Speaker 8: Sometimes people will ask Laura and I, you know, what's

991
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:04,960
Speaker 8: going on here?

992
00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:06,480
Speaker 7: You know, where did this go wrong?

993
00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:11,160
Speaker 8: And I think my response is that there's a tendency

994
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:15,600
Speaker 8: here for people Chad and Laurie to see themselves as

995
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:18,520
Speaker 8: more than human, you know, to see themselves as prophets,

996
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:20,720
Speaker 8: to see themselves as somehow above the rest.

997
00:51:20,600 --> 00:51:24,480
Speaker 7: Of us, or to have special powers. But they don't.

998
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:28,360
Speaker 8: We're human, we're vulnerable, we have imperfections, we have weaknesses,

999
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:30,960
Speaker 8: and that's fine, right, Like, the takeaway for me is,

1000
00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:34,000
Speaker 8: let's just be human, let's be who we are. Let's

1001
00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:39,279
Speaker 8: acknowledge our shortcomings. Yeah, and that's fine, rights, that's life.

1002
00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:39,640
Speaker 7: That's what you know.

1003
00:51:40,120 --> 00:51:42,960
Speaker 8: I tell the story about how Laurie, Laura and I

1004
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:45,320
Speaker 8: took our little guy, our little four year old, to

1005
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:48,680
Speaker 8: the Grand Canyon and he was just mesmerized, you know,

1006
00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:50,960
Speaker 8: he was speechless and he said.

1007
00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:53,760
Speaker 3: Dad, it's so pretty da dad, Dad?

1008
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:54,080
Speaker 6: Look.

1009
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:59,040
Speaker 8: And I tell that story because there's amazing things in

1010
00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:02,719
Speaker 8: front of us, right Like, in some ways, life, in

1011
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:05,480
Speaker 8: its simplicity, it can be conspiring. It doesn't have to

1012
00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:07,840
Speaker 8: be the Grand Canyon. It could be just spending the

1013
00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:10,960
Speaker 8: evening with someone you love and you're close to. Yeah, like,

1014
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:13,040
Speaker 8: we don't have to. Why do we always want to

1015
00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:15,640
Speaker 8: transcend who we are? Why do we want to transcend

1016
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:19,759
Speaker 8: the human condition? Why aren't we content just being who

1017
00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:23,440
Speaker 8: we are and being with the people we love. And

1018
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:26,880
Speaker 8: I think this is a case of two human beings

1019
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:29,800
Speaker 8: or maybe one human being that created this elaborate fiction.

1020
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:32,360
Speaker 8: It had to go live in it, and the results

1021
00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:35,400
Speaker 8: were disastrous. They just couldn't accept who they were and

1022
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:38,319
Speaker 8: they couldn't live life just in the moment, in day

1023
00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:39,640
Speaker 8: to day and being content with that.

1024
00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:40,959
Speaker 4: Right.

1025
00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:45,120
Speaker 1: I think I'm someone who's definitely guilty of that too,

1026
00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:48,839
Speaker 1: where I'm like, but regular life isn't enough. Yeah, it

1027
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:52,680
Speaker 1: needs to be like fantastical and right, larger than life

1028
00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:55,320
Speaker 1: and this you know, big thing. I was like, well

1029
00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:57,120
Speaker 1: does it?

1030
00:52:57,160 --> 00:52:57,400
Speaker 3: Does it?

1031
00:52:57,480 --> 00:52:57,719
Speaker 7: Really?

1032
00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:01,480
Speaker 8: People were always looking ahead to be discontent with who

1033
00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:04,600
Speaker 8: we are and what we're doing, and there's always the

1034
00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:08,280
Speaker 8: future and something bigger and brighter and better, and why

1035
00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:09,840
Speaker 8: like we're missing out on what's.

1036
00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:10,359
Speaker 7: In front of us.

1037
00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:12,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally.

1038
00:53:13,080 --> 00:53:13,239
Speaker 7: Oh.

1039
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:14,040
Speaker 4: I love that.

1040
00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:16,279
Speaker 1: You guys are so amazing to talk to.

1041
00:53:16,400 --> 00:53:19,000
Speaker 2: I want to go live with you guys, if that's possible.

1042
00:53:19,080 --> 00:53:23,600
Speaker 3: I'll just so you're both you're both invited to dinner anytime. Okay, great,

1043
00:53:24,040 --> 00:53:26,880
Speaker 3: Thanks our table and enjoy a conversation.

1044
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:30,879
Speaker 8: I want to Vegas. Please stop by for sure. Our

1045
00:53:30,920 --> 00:53:33,760
Speaker 8: podcast started at the dinner table, and we love having

1046
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:35,400
Speaker 8: people by to talk about this stuff.

1047
00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:36,200
Speaker 3: That's awesome.

1048
00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:37,440
Speaker 6: Where do we find you?

1049
00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:41,840
Speaker 4: Our podcast is Hidden a true crime podcast, and you

1050
00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:46,680
Speaker 4: can find that on any of the places you find podcasts.

1051
00:53:47,239 --> 00:53:49,960
Speaker 4: And then we also have a YouTube channel where we've

1052
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:52,399
Speaker 4: been doing a lot of investigative research and a lot

1053
00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:55,279
Speaker 4: of the interviews I mentioned with cult leaders or not

1054
00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:59,480
Speaker 4: cult leaders, but cult members of Chad's group, as well

1055
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:04,359
Speaker 4: as discussing Gabby Patito and some other cases. And our

1056
00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:08,560
Speaker 4: YouTube channel is Hidden true Crime. And then we're on

1057
00:54:08,680 --> 00:54:12,240
Speaker 4: Facebook Hidden true Crime in our website is Hidden true

1058
00:54:12,239 --> 00:54:13,880
Speaker 4: Crime dot com.

1059
00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:15,320
Speaker 6: Amazing awesome.

1060
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:18,880
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go listen to like every episode now. So

1061
00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:21,360
Speaker 1: thank you, Hey you guys.

1062
00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:23,799
Speaker 8: Thank you guys. We appreciate it. And yeah, if you're

1063
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:25,160
Speaker 8: in Vegas, just let us know.

1064
00:54:25,239 --> 00:54:28,680
Speaker 1: Please, all right, totally have an amazing day.

1065
00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:31,240
Speaker 3: Thank you you do too, Thanks ladies.

1066
00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:36,560
Speaker 1: Oh right, what a story. I will be transfixed with

1067
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:39,400
Speaker 1: all of the new developments about this. Can't wait to

1068
00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:40,200
Speaker 1: see what happens.

1069
00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:40,560
Speaker 6: Same.

1070
00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:41,880
Speaker 3: Oh god.

1071
00:54:42,320 --> 00:54:45,400
Speaker 1: So okay, So Megan, so we know how you feel

1072
00:54:45,480 --> 00:54:48,239
Speaker 1: about Chad day Bell. We talked about it last week. Hey,

1073
00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:51,200
Speaker 1: so here's a question. Yeah, hey, here's a question. Would

1074
00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:51,960
Speaker 1: you join the cult?

1075
00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:55,320
Speaker 5: Lauren and John Matthias. These are the two people we

1076
00:54:55,440 --> 00:54:59,040
Speaker 5: were just talking to. Yes, yeah, okay, tell me more.

1077
00:54:59,480 --> 00:54:59,960
Speaker 5: I will.

1078
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:05,280
Speaker 2: I think that they are just so interesting and fun

1079
00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:09,680
Speaker 2: and have enough like self esteem to not be narcissists.

1080
00:55:09,719 --> 00:55:11,759
Speaker 2: And even if they're passionate about something, I feel like

1081
00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:14,799
Speaker 2: you could disagree with them and uh just party with them.

1082
00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:16,759
Speaker 1: So it really wouldn't even be a could and more

1083
00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:17,680
Speaker 1: just be like a hang.

1084
00:55:17,960 --> 00:55:19,920
Speaker 6: Well, if it was a cult, I still feel like

1085
00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:20,600
Speaker 6: it would be a hang.

1086
00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:23,680
Speaker 1: Well, all cults are hangs, are they not?

1087
00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:24,319
Speaker 3: They are?

1088
00:55:25,840 --> 00:55:29,919
Speaker 2: We should rename them hang. It's kind of lesson, yeah,

1089
00:55:30,040 --> 00:55:34,680
Speaker 2: hang leaders. Yeah, I would join it, would you? I

1090
00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:36,760
Speaker 2: just admit it, you would.

1091
00:55:37,160 --> 00:55:38,040
Speaker 1: I would joined the hang?

1092
00:55:38,480 --> 00:55:39,200
Speaker 6: Yeah, lesson.

1093
00:55:39,640 --> 00:55:41,520
Speaker 1: I just would love to talk about true crying with

1094
00:55:41,560 --> 00:55:43,200
Speaker 1: them all day and like.

1095
00:55:43,200 --> 00:55:44,880
Speaker 2: But the only way you can is if you're in

1096
00:55:44,920 --> 00:55:46,160
Speaker 2: their cult, you've joined it.

1097
00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:46,560
Speaker 5: Okay.

1098
00:55:46,600 --> 00:55:48,880
Speaker 1: Well, when I'm in Las Vegas, where they live, I

1099
00:55:48,920 --> 00:55:50,279
Speaker 1: think I would be a member of the hang.

1100
00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:54,560
Speaker 5: Yes, Okay, cool, I guess that's all. Yeah.

1101
00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:56,360
Speaker 1: They seem like they would have a great They invited

1102
00:55:56,440 --> 00:55:58,480
Speaker 1: us to dinner. It seems like the dinners would be delicious. Oh,

1103
00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:02,200
Speaker 1: I think there'd be like four different courses. I just

1104
00:56:02,239 --> 00:56:03,680
Speaker 1: get the good dinner vibes.

1105
00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:09,360
Speaker 6: Yeah yeah, nice like silverware. Yeah totally.

1106
00:56:11,239 --> 00:56:11,399
Speaker 7: Well.

1107
00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:13,919
Speaker 6: We hope you enjoyed this episode. We also hope you.

1108
00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:16,600
Speaker 2: Have an amazing week. We will see you here next week.

1109
00:56:16,760 --> 00:56:19,359
Speaker 2: Remember to follow your gut, watch out for Red

1110
00:56:19,400 --> 00:56:30,280
Speaker 5: Fox, and never ever trusts me why