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Speaker 1: There really is a tension between being and becoming. On

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Speaker 1: some level, being isn't enough because you know that life

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Speaker 1: is also an unending series of problems to be solved,

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Speaker 1: and we're all going to die, right, so we have

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Speaker 1: to find some mode of being at peace within permanence.

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Speaker 1: The best selling author and post.

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Speaker 2: The number one health and wellness podcast On Purpose with

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Speaker 2: Jay Shetty. Hey, everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the

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Speaker 2: number one health podcast in the world. Thanks to each

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Speaker 2: and every one of you that come back every week

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Speaker 2: to become happier, healthier, and more healed. I'm so grateful

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Speaker 2: for our incredible community and all the love and support

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Speaker 2: and energy that I've been seeing already at the beginning

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Speaker 2: of this year, and I'm so excited to be talking

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Speaker 2: to you today. I can't believe it. My new book,

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Speaker 2: Eight Rules of Love is out and I cannot wait

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Speaker 2: to share it with you. I am so so excited

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Speaker 2: for you to read this book, for you to listen

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Speaker 2: to this book. I read the audiobook. If you haven't

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Speaker 2: got it already, make sure you go to eight Rules

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Speaker 2: of Love dot com. It's dedicated to anyone who's trying

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Speaker 2: to find, keep, or let go of love. So if

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Speaker 2: you've got friends that are dating, broken up, or struggling

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Speaker 2: with love, make sure you grab this book. And I'd

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Speaker 2: love to invite you to come and see me for

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Speaker 2: my global tour Love Rules. Go to jshellytour dot com

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Speaker 2: to learn more information about tickets, VIP experiences, and more.

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Speaker 2: I can't wait to see you this year. And today's

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Speaker 2: guest is someone that I've been reading his books for

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Speaker 2: quite a while. We were just discussing beforehand. Probably started

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Speaker 2: reading his work around thirteen years ago or thereabouts, and

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Speaker 2: I just read his latest book, which I'm going to

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Speaker 2: tell you about today, and we'll be discussing some of

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Speaker 2: that work today. And it's amazing to see how someone's deepened, expanded,

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Speaker 2: continued their thought, especially when they write in a very

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Speaker 2: logical but also documentari way. And so I'm talking about

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Speaker 2: Sam Harris and neuroscientist, philosopher, and author of five New

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Speaker 2: York Times best sellers. Sam's work covers a wide range

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Speaker 2: of topics neuroscience, moral philosophy, religion, meditation, practice, rationality, and

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Speaker 2: Sam focuses on how a growing understanding of ourselves and

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Speaker 2: the world is changing our sense of how we should live.

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Speaker 2: Some of The books include the End of Faith, The

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Speaker 2: Moral Landscape, which is the first book I read, Free Will, Lying,

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Speaker 2: and Waking Up. Sam hosts the popular Making Sense podcast

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Speaker 2: and is the creator of the Waking Up app. Please

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Speaker 2: welcome to the show, Sam Harris. Sam, thank you for

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Speaker 2: doing this.

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Speaker 1: Oh, yes, pleasure. Great to meet you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's great to meet you. This is the first

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Speaker 2: time we've never interacted before. This no messages, no text.

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Speaker 1: First time in the same rooms. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, But it's always I love diving in with an

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Speaker 2: author that I've read before. And so, as you said

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Speaker 2: a few brief moments ago, even though we've not met,

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Speaker 2: I hope that I have somewhat of an understanding and

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Speaker 2: insight into your mind. But I always look to extend

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Speaker 2: and expand that. Today I want to dive straight in,

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Speaker 2: and I want to pick out a quote here from you.

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Speaker 2: You said, most of us spend our time seeking happiness

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Speaker 2: and security without acknowledging the underlying purpose of our search.

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Speaker 2: Each of us is looking for a path back to

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Speaker 2: the present. We're trying to find good enough reasons to

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Speaker 2: be satisfied. Now, my question is what's worth pursuing or

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Speaker 2: what is worthy of pursuit in life, because I guess

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Speaker 2: that's probably a good place to start.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, there really is a tension between being and becoming, right,

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Speaker 1: I think we live with this tension every moment of

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Speaker 1: our lives, and I think the domain of our spiritual

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Speaker 1: concerns really focuses on the being part.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: Just spirituality, for lack of a better word, is whatever

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Speaker 1: you put in the space, provided it is an answer

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Speaker 1: to the question of how is it possible to be

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Speaker 1: fulfilled in the present moment, in the midst of whatever's happening,

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Speaker 1: Knowing that experience is always changing, Knowing that you can't

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Speaker 1: possibly create an experience that doesn't change, how is it

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Speaker 1: possible to be at peace with the flux? Right? So

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Speaker 1: that's and really finding a mode of being that wherein

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Speaker 1: you you can recognize a type of fulfillment that isn't

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Speaker 1: predicated on the next good thing happening. Right, the story

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Speaker 1: you're telling yourself about the future that may in fact

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Speaker 1: never arrive. On some level, being isn't enough because they

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Speaker 1: are all the ways in the ways the world might be, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, there's the possibility space of what we can create,

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Speaker 1: and what we want to create takes effort, and so

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Speaker 1: there's all these things that are not actualized now, even

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Speaker 1: if we're content now. And I think the domain of

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Speaker 1: our becoming, I mean, there's all kinds of healthy ways

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Speaker 1: of unhealthy ways of becoming, but the healthy mode of becoming,

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Speaker 1: at least one part of it is it really subsumes

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Speaker 1: our ethical lives. Right, It's like, just what is it?

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Speaker 1: What would be good to do? What is positive? What

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Speaker 1: is pro social? How can we make the world a

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Speaker 1: better place? How can we raise our kids to be

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Speaker 1: wise and honest and content? And I mean all of

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Speaker 1: these are projects that take work, and so it's not

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Speaker 1: just a matter of just chilling out perfectly and watching

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Speaker 1: what happens. We do have to do things. So the

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Speaker 1: tension really is in being at peace in the meditative

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Speaker 1: sense and the contemplative sense and the spiritual sense, even

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Speaker 1: while you make great effort to accomplish things. And I

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Speaker 1: think the piece part comes when you recognize that your

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Speaker 1: happiness is not actually predicated on getting any of those

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Speaker 1: things done. I mean that you have to learn to

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Speaker 1: love the process. You have to learn to recognize that

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Speaker 1: goals themselves, as valid as they might be to achieve

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Speaker 1: the experience of achieving them is very brief, and it

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Speaker 1: has this mirage like quality where it just it recedes.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you've been thinking about this thing for a

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Speaker 1: year and you finally get to that landmark, and what

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Speaker 1: is it. Well, it's just another moment of being alive.

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Speaker 1: And now you've got your thoughts about the past and

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Speaker 1: the future still, and the question is can you actually

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Speaker 1: make full contact with the present moment? And so in

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Speaker 1: the quote you read, my main point was most people,

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Speaker 1: if you don't know how to meditate, you're basically trying

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Speaker 1: to arrange the world to give you a good enough

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Speaker 1: reason to recognize that the present moment is enough. Right,

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Speaker 1: And once you actually know how to meditate, you can

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Speaker 1: sink into the present moment regardless of what else you're

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Speaker 1: struggling to accomplish. And so you can be you can

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Speaker 1: sort of take the goals as the path, right, I

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Speaker 1: mean kind of emotionally and cognitively, you sort of you've

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Speaker 1: already arrived in terms of your own concerns about your

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Speaker 1: own well being. And yet you know that life is

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Speaker 1: also an unending series of problems to be solved. Right,

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Speaker 1: But you're I mean, we're all going to die, right,

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Speaker 1: It's not there's there's no solution to the the the

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Speaker 1: massive problem of impermanence, right, so we have to find

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Speaker 1: some mode of being at peace with impermanence. And and

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Speaker 1: that's really that's where the contemplate of life comes in.

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Speaker 2: So we're talking about pursuing peace. We're talking about pursuing

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Speaker 2: this ability to navigate between, as you were saying, being

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Speaker 2: at peace with where you are now, but at the

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Speaker 2: same time growing and progressing and loving the process as well.

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Speaker 2: How do you define, just for everyone who's listening, because

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Speaker 2: I know you do this a lot in the book

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Speaker 2: and in your work as well, how do you define

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Speaker 2: spirituality and how do you define religion so that people

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Speaker 2: can just make sense of those terms as we use

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Speaker 2: them throughout this yeah conversation.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, so I tend you, as you probably know,

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Speaker 1: I tend to be a critic of organized religion because

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Speaker 1: it just forget about the tribalism that religion so often

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Speaker 1: in genders, and the conflict born of that tribal as.

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Speaker 1: I just think we need a twenty first century conversation

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Speaker 1: about human wisdom and human happiness. And you know, spirituality

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Speaker 1: is a word I use, although I use it somewhat

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Speaker 1: in scare quotes because people have associations with it that

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Speaker 1: I think are just not helpful. So my argument is, really,

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Speaker 1: you can have a twenty first century conversation about reality

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Speaker 1: and how to live within it, or you can have

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Speaker 1: a seventh century conversation or a fifth century BC conversation.

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Speaker 1: You can you can locate yourself at any point in

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Speaker 1: human history, or you can at this moment decide to

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Speaker 1: avail yourself of all of the best ideas and just

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Speaker 1: recognize that we have really a common inheritance of wisdom

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Speaker 1: and insight and can we can use whatever works right,

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Speaker 1: And ultimately we have to be the best judges of

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Speaker 1: what works given the needs of the moment, given technological

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Speaker 1: changes that could never have been foreseen by our ancestors. Right, So,

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Speaker 1: whether we do this with the US Constitution, or we

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Speaker 1: do it with the Bible, or we do it with

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Speaker 1: with the Polycanon, you know, the Buddhist scripture, it's just

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Speaker 1: you can There's no question that our ancestors have created

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Speaker 1: documents and ways of thinking and methodologies, you know, science

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Speaker 1: being one, the contemplative practice being another, that are incredibly

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Speaker 1: valuable to us. But we have to recognize that, you know,

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Speaker 1: in this moment in time, all we have is human

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Speaker 1: conversation and human intuition and human insight by which to navigate.

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Speaker 1: And so I just for the religion piece to be

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Speaker 1: dogmatically attached to a specific religion, as though it were

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Speaker 1: the one true way of seeing everything, that just doesn't

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Speaker 1: make any sense to me at this moment. It's analogous

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Speaker 1: to wanting to say that the physics is a Christian phenomenon,

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Speaker 1: because the Christians, for the most part, were the first

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Speaker 1: people to actually make real breakthroughs in physics. Well, it's

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Speaker 1: just there's no reason to speak of Christian physics or

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Speaker 1: Muslim algebra. And ultimately I think that there will be

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Speaker 1: no reason to speak of Christian or Buddhist or Hindu spirituality.

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Speaker 1: I think we have a common human project, and whatever

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Speaker 1: is true of the human mind and its possibilities, there

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Speaker 1: has to be a way of talking about that that

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Speaker 1: truly transcends culture. And certainly it isn't sectarian in any

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Speaker 1: usual sense, in the same way that science, when it's

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Speaker 1: working transcends culture and isn't sectarian. I mean, there's no

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Speaker 1: Japanese science versus American science versus you know, there's just

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Speaker 1: there's just science spirituality for better or worse, is a

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Speaker 1: word that I think we still need to use because

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Speaker 1: I tend to. I also talk about the contemplative life

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Speaker 1: or wisdom traditions and specific practices like meditation, but it

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Speaker 1: names an approach to well being that isn't predicated on

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Speaker 1: all of the usual seeking to become happy. Right, So

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Speaker 1: it's not about getting wealthier, it's not a it's not

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Speaker 1: about getting healthier and fitter. And those are all worthwhile

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Speaker 1: projects and they're not in conflict with spirituality. But the

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Speaker 1: spiritual piece in spirituality is how is it possible to

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Speaker 1: pay attention in this moment so as to not suffer unnecessarily? Right?

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Speaker 1: And what are the actual mechanics of our psychological suffering

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Speaker 1: such that we do suffer unnecessarily so much of the time,

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Speaker 1: And when you look closely at all that it really

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Speaker 1: is a matter of being lost in thought almost all

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Speaker 1: of the time, and there's kind of this living, this

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Speaker 1: waking dreamscape of thought where we're talking to ourselves moment

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Speaker 1: to moment, we're not aware of it, and so much

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Speaker 1: of that conversation is an unhappy one. And meditation is

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Speaker 1: really a way of breaking that spell and waking up

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Speaker 1: from the dream of discressivity and identification with thought such

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Speaker 1: you can recognize that consciousness that by which everything is

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Speaker 1: seen and known and experienced and felt right, just the

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Speaker 1: qualitative character of your own being in this moment. Consciousness

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Speaker 1: has certain qualities that are intrinsically peaceful and gratifying and

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Speaker 1: not and free of problems, right. And it's really the

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Speaker 1: layer of thought that we fail to recognize all that

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Speaker 1: and feel that our you know, every waking moment is

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Speaker 1: some form of emergency that has to be responded to

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Speaker 1: or reacted to.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think the way you define spirituality, in

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Speaker 2: the way you talk about it, I feel like it's

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Speaker 2: definitely more and more appealing today. I think it's definitely

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Speaker 2: something that, as you said, we need a twenty first

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Speaker 2: century version of what we're pursuing and how we think

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Speaker 2: about reality. And I think those conversations are happening more

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Speaker 2: often and more strongly and in more important circles. I

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Speaker 2: have this question because I've often thought about this. You've

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Speaker 2: well documented the pitfalls of organized religion and the challenges

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Speaker 2: that come with that. What do you think of the

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Speaker 2: pitfalls or challenges of spirituality in the fact that we

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Speaker 2: move away from something, as you said earlier, was like,

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Speaker 2: you know, this very defined, structured way of living that

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Speaker 2: we've now come to look at it and gone, okay,

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Speaker 2: that doesn't make sense all the time. And at the

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Speaker 2: other end, we have a complete kind of open paradigm

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Speaker 2: of spirituality, which can often be confusing, lacking structure, lacking

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Speaker 2: somewhat of a map, Like do you see certain pitfalls

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Speaker 2: as to how we practice and become contemplative about spirituality?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, so I should say that much that goes

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Speaker 1: by the name of spirituality is also something that is

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Speaker 1: worth being skeptical of.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: There many beliefs that people form, and many of these

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Speaker 1: are imported from religion. They just can't be squared with

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Speaker 1: a sophisticated scientific view of just what reality is. Like.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's not to say we've figured everything out.

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Speaker 1: I mean we we certainly haven't, But we just know

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Speaker 1: that that certain superstitious, magical, other worldly beliefs are just

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Speaker 1: not likely to be true. And and yet the most

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Speaker 1: important spiritual claims traditionally, like the fact that the unconditional

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Speaker 1: love is a possible state of mind, right, or that

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Speaker 1: the self as it's normally felt and conceived is actually

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Speaker 1: illusory right that we're taken in by a powerful illusion

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Speaker 1: of separateness, and that's that feeling of separateness can be

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Speaker 1: inspected and ultimately penetrated and felt through and felt beyond.

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Speaker 1: Those are really those are the babies in the bathwater

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Speaker 1: of religion and spirituality that I think everyone, if they

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Speaker 1: think about it long enough, wants to conserve. And yet

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Speaker 1: and and those are fully supported by a modern discussion

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Speaker 1: of the human mind, and even a neuroanatomical discussion of

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Speaker 1: the human mind. And there's no in my as you know,

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Speaker 1: my phgs and neuroscience that I can tell you there's

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Speaker 1: no place in the brain for a a an unchanging

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Speaker 1: ego to be hiding, right, And the sense that we

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Speaker 1: have a self that is unchanging, that's carried through from

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Speaker 1: moment to moment, that is the place from which we

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Speaker 1: appropriate experience that is separate from experience that is just granted,

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Speaker 1: it's a powerful illusion for many people, but it's a

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Speaker 1: it's an illusion that that can be dispelled, and once dispelled,

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Speaker 1: it actually brings your your experience into closer register with

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Speaker 1: what we have every reason to believe neuroscientifically about just

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Speaker 1: the way the mind should be based on on the

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Speaker 1: way the brain is. If you wander into the spiritual

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Speaker 1: side of a bookstore, if you can even find a

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Speaker 1: physical bookstore these days, it's been it's been a while,

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Speaker 1: so I've been in one, but they're few and far

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Speaker 1: between at the moments, definitely. But if you so in

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Speaker 1: that section of the bookstore, there's a lot on the

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Speaker 1: shelves that is bogus or semi bogus, or you know,

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Speaker 1: filled with wishful thinking and not so interesting intellectually or ethically, frankly,

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Speaker 1: but there's there's a lot that is truly valid. And

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Speaker 1: I think we just have to become wiser curators of

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Speaker 1: the totality of human conversation in the world's literature to

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Speaker 1: find what is worthy of our credence at this point.

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Speaker 1: And this is what we do this naturally, and I

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Speaker 1: think we just need to be honest that we are

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Speaker 1: the ones like when you go to an ancient text,

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Speaker 1: when you go to the you take your your favorite

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Speaker 1: spiritual or religious book. In almost all of them, there

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Speaker 1: are passages that are obviously anachronistic and just not suited

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Speaker 1: to a twenty first century view of just how we

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Speaker 1: should live. Right, So there's a lot about how to

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Speaker 1: sacrifice goats, you know, in the in the Old Testament,

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Speaker 1: and it's just if it was ever useful, it's not

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Speaker 1: not especially useful. Now people effortlessly ignore those passages and

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Speaker 1: that's fine. So you're you're performing editing on the fly,

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Speaker 1: and then you then you find, you know, a passage

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Speaker 1: in an Ecclesiastes or Jesus you're giving the Sermon on

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Speaker 1: the Mount and you know the Golden Rule, and you say, okay,

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Speaker 1: this is this really encapsulates a lot of wisdom, and

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Speaker 1: it's very hard to improve on the Golden rule. The

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Speaker 1: Golden rules are fantastic heuristic for just living ethically with

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Speaker 1: people so great there's nothing we need to believe on

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Speaker 1: insufficient evidence to use the Golden rule as a as

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Speaker 1: a a great kind of navigation tool ethically. And when

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Speaker 1: you think about ethics and morality, it really is a

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Speaker 1: question of what to do next. And we're always faced

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Speaker 1: with this this navigation problem essentially, because there's this total

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Speaker 1: space of possible experience individually and collectively, and we're trying

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Speaker 1: to figure out how to navigate in this space given

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Speaker 1: the possible expert is on offer. And the truth is

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Speaker 1: there are horizons here which we can't see beyond. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we don't know how good life could get for us

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Speaker 1: individually and collectively. And there's so many things that are

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Speaker 1: in play now. I mean, we are living at a

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Speaker 1: time where it's possible for us to change our own

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Speaker 1: genomes ultimately, right, I mean, there's not not many people

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Speaker 1: doing that at the moment, but that is just a

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Speaker 1: few short years away where we're going to be confronted

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Speaker 1: with the question of I mean, do you actually want

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Speaker 1: to modify the genes that are expressed in your body

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Speaker 1: and brain and even in the germ line. So we're

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Speaker 1: talking about the inheritance of future children, So we can

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Speaker 1: do in a few short moments what evolution has been

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Speaker 1: doing for hundreds of thousands of years in our case,

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Speaker 1: and millions of millions and millions of years before that.

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Speaker 1: So these are choices that we have always had to make,

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Speaker 1: but now we're making them in the presence of increasingly

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Speaker 1: powerful technology, our engagement with the internet and information. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we we have we're finding it hard to even have

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Speaker 1: a conversation about the most basic facts now at scale

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Speaker 1: because there's so much misinformation, and we much of our

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Speaker 1: conversation is being piped through the social media platforms, which

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Speaker 1: are essentially outrage machines. Right, They're a preferentially amplifying the

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Speaker 1: most agitating and divisive content because that's what spreads faster.

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Speaker 1: And they're ampling, amplfying misinformation more than the debunking of misinformation. Right.

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Speaker 1: So there's a kind of an asymmetric war of information here.

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Speaker 1: And so we're we're suddenly we've got these functionally, we

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Speaker 1: we have the genes we had you know, with a

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Speaker 1: few tweaks we had that. We have the genes we

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Speaker 1: have maybe seventy five thousand years ago. Right, So we're

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Speaker 1: we are these ancient primates now armed with nuclear weapons

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Speaker 1: and an internet and increasing and AI technology now and

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Speaker 1: we're faced with continually faced with the conundrum of what

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Speaker 1: to do with all of this, and how do we

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Speaker 1: solve these massive coordination problems where we get now eight

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Speaker 1: billion strangers essentially to cooperate peacefully. The landscape of possibility

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Speaker 1: here is always shifting, and so again we have human

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Speaker 1: conversation as a means by which to navigate this. And

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Speaker 1: so yeah, I mean to come back this a very

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Speaker 1: long way of getting back to your original question, which

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Speaker 1: is once you recognize that our legacy thought structures are

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Speaker 1: not well suited to this right. So to be a

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Speaker 1: fundamentalist Christian, or a fundamentalist Buddhist or a fundamentalist Hindu

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Speaker 1: in the face of these new opportunities and new challenges

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Speaker 1: is not the best operating system for your mind. And

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Speaker 1: you're forced to be far more eclectic and non sectarian

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Speaker 1: and not dogmatic, and just open to the best evidence

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Speaker 1: and the best arguments, really perpetually open to the best,

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Speaker 1: to new evidence and better arguments. Where the guardrails right,

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Speaker 1: there's no longer it's no longer simple, right, I can't.

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Speaker 1: I can no longer just consult a single book or

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Speaker 1: a single list of dos and don'ts to guide to

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Speaker 1: guide me. Ultimately, it's a far more flexible and intelligent

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Speaker 1: way to proceed, because we want me to ask yourself,

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Speaker 1: do you want your next decision or your your decision

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Speaker 1: ten years from now to be Do you want to

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Speaker 1: be available to the best evidence and the best arguments

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Speaker 1: at that moment when making that decision or not? Do

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Speaker 1: you want some belief system that guarantees your unavailability right?

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Speaker 1: Do you want some kind of cognitive and emotional closure

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Speaker 1: that walls you off from better arguments and better information.

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Speaker 1: I think I think almost no one would sign up

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Speaker 1: for that kind of you know, that's that's ignorance by

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Speaker 1: another name. Right, So I think we want to be persuadable.

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Speaker 1: We want to be open to better arguments and new evidence.

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Speaker 1: We also want to be skeptical and and conservative in

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Speaker 1: in how we revise our map of the world, because

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Speaker 1: we know that most new you know, published studies have

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Speaker 1: sent a very good chance of not being true or

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Speaker 1: you know, or not not being replicatable. Even in science,

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Speaker 1: we have a legacy, We have an inheritance of institutions

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Speaker 1: that have proved themselves over generations, and so we shouldn't

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Speaker 1: be eager to tear everything down to the studs and

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Speaker 1: and build again, right, I think we I think there's

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Speaker 1: a there's a reason to be conservative with respect to

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Speaker 1: the institutions and norms. And I mean things that have

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Speaker 1: worked for centuries there tend to be a reason why

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Speaker 1: they've worked for centuries. And so it's it's there's a

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Speaker 1: sort of a tinkering and and an iterative process here

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Speaker 1: that I think makes sense. But ultimately, yeah, we want

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Speaker 1: a modern wisdom. Wisdom tradition to be the common property

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Speaker 1: of a non sectarian, non parochial, non provincial humanity at

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Speaker 1: this point.

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Speaker 2: That but that nicely comes back to the waking up

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Speaker 2: part of your work, right the idea that we can't

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Speaker 2: create something or use something fully aligned with human values

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Speaker 2: because we as humans aren't fully aligned with human values

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Speaker 2: in the in the collective sense. And the idea that

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Speaker 2: I've always felt that the reason why we should be

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Speaker 2: scared of technology is because I guess we're scared of

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Speaker 2: some humans. So if humans have the ability to create something,

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Speaker 2: it will have all the imperfections that we have internally

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Speaker 2: in the creator of it, and so it will inherit

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Speaker 2: all the same manipulative tendencies, exploitative tendencies, the you know,

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Speaker 2: it's hard to free something of that if you inherently

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Speaker 2: build something with that. And you see that with any

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Speaker 2: sort of media social media technology today, that even if

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Speaker 2: it was built with the best intentions of trying to

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Speaker 2: create good in the world, either it amplifies negative or

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Speaker 2: inherently has some questionable morals and ethics to it as well.

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Speaker 2: And so it comes back to the waking up part

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Speaker 2: of your work, which is this self reflective contemplative idea

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Speaker 2: of you know, who am I becoming? Who do I

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Speaker 2: want to be? Who am I? I mean at the

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Speaker 2: very deepest level, As you said, one word that I've

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Speaker 2: always loved from my studies was this idea of the

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Speaker 2: word purifying, Like there was all this there was a needing,

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Speaker 2: there was a need for purification of some of these elements.

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Speaker 2: And you talk about this in the beginning of your

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Speaker 2: book when you I believe it's one of the first

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Speaker 2: times you did M D M A and then you

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Speaker 2: had this feeling of like complete love for your friend,

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Speaker 2: free of envy. And when when I was reading that,

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Speaker 2: I was thinking about how much this word purification is

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Speaker 2: often not talked about, but it's probably my favorite word

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Speaker 2: that I've I've learned through my study of wisdom traditions,

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Speaker 2: because to me, I was thinking, Yeah, what's what's really required,

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Speaker 2: as you said, is that love's already there. It's already there.

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Speaker 2: It's not like you're finding or discovering something, but there's

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Speaker 2: almost like a detox and a cleansing and letting go

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Speaker 2: of these other things that cloud our ability to be there.

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Speaker 2: Is that part of what you doing, what you feel

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Speaker 2: meditation achieves or no, that's that's a completely different thing

433
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 2: as well.

434
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:54,760
Speaker 1: The thing you want to accomplish is already accomplished, right,

435
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:57,760
Speaker 1: So that they're dualistic and non dual ways of conceiving

436
00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:00,800
Speaker 1: this whole, the whole path of practice, and that the

437
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 1: dualistic way is very much a purification model, which is,

438
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 1: there's something that's like currently currently dirty, right, and you

439
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 1: can clean it, and you can it's going to take

440
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:12,200
Speaker 1: effort to clean it, right, And so this is and

441
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,919
Speaker 1: I would argue that most spiritual traditions are framed in

442
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 1: that way, and there's definitely a place for that, But

443
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:25,080
Speaker 1: the mature approach to meditation practice is and the one

444
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:28,120
Speaker 1: frankly that is just free of the of the stress

445
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:31,720
Speaker 1: of seeking, is to recognize that that consciousness as it

446
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:37,679
Speaker 1: is to ordinary consciousness, regardless of what its current contents are,

447
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:40,680
Speaker 1: regardless of what you're currently experiencing. You could be feeling

448
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 1: a classically negative emotion and you could have just gotten angry, right,

449
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 1: and then you remember, oh wait a minute, I'm I'm

450
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:51,199
Speaker 1: supposed to be meditating, Okay, what's true now, right, And

451
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:55,160
Speaker 1: the physiology of anger hasn't even had time to dissipate yet, right,

452
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 1: So that that that'll happen over you know, tens of seconds, right,

453
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 1: but still in the in this if if you know

454
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:04,920
Speaker 1: how to recognize you know what what I call over

455
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 1: and waking up consciousness without without a center, in that

456
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 1: first moment of just just recognizing that you are the

457
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 1: condition in which anger and everything else is appearing, there's

458
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,240
Speaker 1: already no center to that condition. There's already no ego

459
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 1: in the middle of it. And it doesn't actually get

460
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,360
Speaker 1: emptier of self than that ever, And it's and even

461
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 1: if you have a very different experience, I mean you

462
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:32,200
Speaker 1: take M D M A and you feel unconditional love,

463
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:34,159
Speaker 1: or you go on a long meditation retreat and you

464
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:38,200
Speaker 1: get really concentrated and you're having just regularly having experiences

465
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,399
Speaker 1: of bliss. Say so, it can be very you know,

466
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 1: drug like all of the those changes in the contents

467
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,120
Speaker 1: of consciousness are transitory. I mean, you take a drug

468
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 1: and it's going to wear off. You get very concentrated

469
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 1: and you feel bliss. But when you're you know, watching

470
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:55,960
Speaker 1: Netflix two weeks later, you're not You're not concentrated in

471
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:57,399
Speaker 1: that way, and you're doing you're doing something else with

472
00:27:57,440 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 1: your attention, and presumably you're not going to be bliss

473
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 1: out in the same way. So all of those changes

474
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:06,960
Speaker 1: in the contents are temporary. What's not temporary is the

475
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 1: availability of this recognition that there's just this open condition

476
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 1: which everything is spontaneously appearing thoughts and sights and sounds

477
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 1: and sensations and emotions and moods and the energetics of

478
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 1: experience is always occurring in a condition that is fundamentally mysterious, really,

479
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 1: And it's not because if you engage it prior to concepts,

480
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 1: I mean you couldire's a layer at which you can

481
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 1: just think about it and describe it. In psychological terms,

482
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 1: there's a lot to understand, you correlating changes in our

483
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 1: minds with changes in the brain. Right, So there's a

484
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 1: possible neuroscience of contemplative experience, and people are doing that work.

485
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 1: But as a matter of your own experience, there's this

486
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:54,959
Speaker 1: ever present mystery that anything is any way at all.

487
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 1: I mean, you don't know what you're going to think

488
00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 1: next until the thought itself arises, right, It's just because

489
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 1: you'd have to think it before you thought it in

490
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 1: order to know what it is. Right, So it's just

491
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 1: on some level you are a witness to everything that's appearing.

492
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 1: And in the beginning it feels like the witness has

493
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 1: the structure of a self, of a subject. But as

494
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 1: you look into that more and more, that structure goes away,

495
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 1: and there's just this condition in which everything is appearing

496
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 1: and it doesn't and that doesn't feel like I. It

497
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 1: doesn't feel like me. And whatever feels like I or

498
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 1: me as yet more appearance. You know, it can be

499
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 1: just a pattern of energy on your face or a

500
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 1: contraction in the body. So as you keep dropping back

501
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:44,719
Speaker 1: and witnessing that it has, you know, the purification model

502
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 1: makes less and less sense, because what is there to purify? Right,

503
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 1: There's not like even even even anger is no longer anger.

504
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:58,720
Speaker 1: Right in the moment of recognition, it's just this. It's

505
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 1: just a feeling of heat on your face, right, It's

506
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 1: just a feeling. It's just it's a feeling of tension

507
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 1: in your chest. And there's no one to whom those

508
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 1: feelings refer, right, And and so the moment you recognize

509
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 1: that you have by definition broken the connection to whatever

510
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 1: thoughts were telling you why you were angry and why

511
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 1: you should be angry, and why you have every right

512
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 1: to be angry, and what you're going to say to

513
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:25,280
Speaker 1: that person next time you see them, you've broken that

514
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 1: spell of thinking, and so the emotion is dissipating, and

515
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 1: so it's anger is no longer anger, but it's in

516
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 1: purification mode. It is still possible to do that dualistically,

517
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 1: I mean, in the beginning, when you're practicing what I

518
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:47,280
Speaker 1: tend to teach in over waking up is a technique

519
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 1: called mindfulness, which most people engage dualistically in the beginning,

520
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 1: where they're strategically being aware of sights and sounds and

521
00:30:56,480 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 1: sensations and the breath and thoughts, emotions, and so even

522
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 1: even dualistically, you can learn the difference between being lost

523
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 1: in thought and identified with an emotion like anger and

524
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 1: just witnessing it from the point that seems to be

525
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 1: outside of that thought and that that emotion, And even

526
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 1: if it feels like a subject that's paying attention strategically

527
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 1: to to the physiology of anger or or the arising

528
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 1: and cessation of thought, that's fine. I mean, that's a

529
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 1: that's a starting point, that's and a necessary one for

530
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 1: virtually everyone, and that does accomplish this deidentification from the

531
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 1: whole process that's given you this negative emotion. So there

532
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:48,080
Speaker 1: is a freedom even in the dualistic awareness of of

533
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 1: you know, the flow of thought and emotion. But ultimately,

534
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 1: and and that very much has this character of purifying

535
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 1: the mind. It's like you're like, this is a this

536
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 1: is a anger is a classically negative thing to be

537
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 1: stuck in and identified with and acting out of. And

538
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 1: it's divisive. It's you're going to say the thing you regret,

539
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 1: and that for what you have to apologize for. And

540
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:13,239
Speaker 1: it's just you know, you're and the normal person who

541
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:15,400
Speaker 1: doesn't know how to be mindful and doesn't it doesn't

542
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 1: know the difference between being lost and thought and not

543
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 1: is really the mere hostage of that process. They're going

544
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 1: to stay as angry as they're going to stay for

545
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:26,800
Speaker 1: as long as they're going to stay that way, and

546
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 1: they're going to do all of the things that are

547
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:33,960
Speaker 1: life deranging and and reputation harming they might do on

548
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 1: the basis of that emotion for as long as they're

549
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 1: going to do those things, and then they're gonna have

550
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 1: all the reaction to what they did and said. And

551
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 1: it's that's the you know, the complication of life born

552
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 1: of that. You know, one moment where you got angry.

553
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 1: Even dualistic mindfulness gives you a degree of freedom that

554
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 1: most people don't have, and it is a kind of

555
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 1: superpower to be able to say, oh, well, I just

556
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 1: got angry. How long do I want to stay angry for?

557
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 1: For me, an emotion like anger or fear is useful

558
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 1: and so far ours it is. It is a salience cue.

559
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 1: It's telling you that something just happened that's worth paying

560
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 1: attention to. Right, So, there's somebody just walked into the

561
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 1: room who you know doesn't have your your well being

562
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 1: at heart, you know at heart, right, I mean they've

563
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 1: got some intention that is that is in conflict with

564
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 1: with something that you were trying to accomplish, say, or

565
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 1: it's it's telling at minimum, is telling you something about

566
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 1: yourself and about your own priorities, and about about what

567
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 1: you were trying to do in the world. And you know,

568
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 1: for better or worse. So it's worth paying attention to.

569
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 1: But it's almost never the state of mind you want

570
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 1: to be in. Too. Then solve the problem you that

571
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 1: just you just noticed. So I'm not saying that we

572
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 1: The goal is to be completely without any capacity for

573
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:49,640
Speaker 1: anger or fear or any any of these emotions. But

574
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 1: it's I do think psychological health and just the health

575
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 1: of one's relationships and and just the whole project of

576
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 1: living wisely in the world is more and more the

577
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 1: result of being able to get off to unhook from

578
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 1: that negative emotion more and more quickly. I mean, I

579
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,879
Speaker 1: think you want to stay angry and fearful and even

580
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:19,759
Speaker 1: sad for much shorter periods of time, and then you can.

581
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 1: Then there's just more to recognize about the circumstance. It

582
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:26,280
Speaker 1: gives you a degree of freedom by which to navigate.

583
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:31,279
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, I fully agree with that. Whenever I get

584
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 2: asked that question, which I'm sure you get asked a lot,

585
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:35,399
Speaker 2: is like, well, don't you ever get angry or don't

586
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 2: you ever you know, get upset or sad? And and

587
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:41,960
Speaker 2: what you just said has always been my response that

588
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:44,799
Speaker 2: I still feel angry, I still feel sadness, I still

589
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:48,880
Speaker 2: feel envy. I still always believe I always will feel

590
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 2: all of these things, just for less and less time. Yeah,

591
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 2: And that I don't think I'll ever get to zero

592
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 2: Just as you could never run a mile in zero seconds,

593
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 2: I will never get to a point where I'm able

594
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 2: to deal with it in zero seconds. It's just not

595
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 2: going to be possible, right, because it needs to live.

596
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:13,880
Speaker 1: I think there are more impersonal and ethically necessary modes

597
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:16,800
Speaker 1: for these emotions that I don't think we want to

598
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:20,520
Speaker 1: get rid of them. I think I think outrage, moral

599
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:24,319
Speaker 1: outrage has its place, and it is the basis from

600
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:28,400
Speaker 1: which we would we would react to grave injustice in

601
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:30,279
Speaker 1: the world. But it's not it doesn't have to be.

602
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 1: It's not a personal anger, right, but it can. It's

603
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:38,440
Speaker 1: just you see something, You see something, some unnecessary harm

604
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 1: being created deliberately by you know, deeply unwise people in

605
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:46,839
Speaker 1: the world, and you just think, all right, this is

606
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,719
Speaker 1: this is an emergency, this is worth responding to, right,

607
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 1: and and it's and that can feel that the energy

608
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:56,960
Speaker 1: of anger can be behind that, and you know, so

609
00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 1: I would tend to call that outrage rather than anger,

610
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,919
Speaker 1: but that I think moral outrage is useful. But it's

611
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:06,800
Speaker 1: just the question is when does a tip over into

612
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 1: personal psychological suffering that actually diminishes your capacity to do

613
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:14,960
Speaker 1: something useful. And that's that's where that's the line I

614
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:16,400
Speaker 1: think we want to be more aware of.

615
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:18,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's use that as an example and take it

616
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 2: through that process, because I think that's that's exactly it.

617
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 2: Like I was going to bring that up earlier, the

618
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:29,239
Speaker 2: idea that just as the outrage or the emotional experience

619
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:32,360
Speaker 2: can stop us from being practical so to not to

620
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 2: go down this road again, but so too can this

621
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 2: skeptical Like if you know, you can be overly skeptical

622
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:41,840
Speaker 2: and overly analytical and never practically apply anything because you

623
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:45,120
Speaker 2: can constantly find flaws in pretty much most ideas in

624
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 2: the world if you keep looking for them. So let's

625
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:50,719
Speaker 2: take the outrage idea, like, how do you what does

626
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 2: someone do they feel that outrage, the moral outrage where

627
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 2: they feel pain for the suffering of another. Where do

628
00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:01,239
Speaker 2: you go from there through your process? Like what's step two, three, four?

629
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 1: Well, I think it's important to be again cautious and

630
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:13,320
Speaker 1: skeptical of one's own emotional hijacking. Right, So it's like

631
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:14,880
Speaker 1: you want to know, you want to know that this

632
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 1: isn't a personal, petty, ecocentric reaction and it actually is

633
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:22,960
Speaker 1: born of what it purports to be, you know, a

634
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:25,400
Speaker 1: compassionate engagement with the world, like you actually want the

635
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 1: best for other people, perhaps including yourself. But also I mean,

636
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:31,439
Speaker 1: it's like we're all on the same team. That's that's

637
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:34,799
Speaker 1: the mode that you're you're in and so it's not

638
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:39,760
Speaker 1: an expression of your own greed and narcissism and and

639
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:46,480
Speaker 1: you know, of the self focused and divisive emotion.

640
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 2: But it probably will start at that, right.

641
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:53,760
Speaker 1: Well, I think you can have something of that character

642
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:56,440
Speaker 1: in that it's it can have the character of contraction.

643
00:37:56,560 --> 00:38:00,319
Speaker 1: I mean, outrage feels like anger. It's like you, you

644
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 1: know you, it is the same thing that would get

645
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 1: you to raise your voice if you were angry. Right,

646
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:07,480
Speaker 1: It's like it's like you're going to raise your voice

647
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 1: if you're going to raise your voice in defense of humanity. Right, Well,

648
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:15,319
Speaker 1: you're still raising your voice, right, And so it's just

649
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 1: that there's energy behind it, and I think that energy

650
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 1: at times is necessary or to take another somewhat adjacent

651
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:28,759
Speaker 1: situation but analogous. It's like, you know, if you're in

652
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:33,280
Speaker 1: a situation which you have to defend yourself from actual

653
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:35,360
Speaker 1: physical violence or defend someone close to you. You know,

654
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:38,440
Speaker 1: someone's attacked you and your child, So what should you do?

655
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:42,480
Speaker 1: They're just going to lie down and offer yourself up

656
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:45,200
Speaker 1: as a human sacrifice. And no, like I think pacifism

657
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:52,120
Speaker 1: is not actually morally the wisest position ethically. So I

658
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:56,440
Speaker 1: think the energy that would allow you to violently defend

659
00:38:56,480 --> 00:39:01,279
Speaker 1: yourself against an aggressor should available, right. But the question

660
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:05,320
Speaker 1: is but, and it's you know, it's not necessarily anger,

661
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:08,919
Speaker 1: but it could look a lot like anger and feel

662
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 1: a lot like anger. It's certainly not necessarily hatred. And

663
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 1: and here I would I would ask you to consider

664
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 1: how you would feel like, I mean, defending yourself against

665
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:20,880
Speaker 1: a person. You know, you think of somebody who is

666
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 1: there some you know, malicious psychopath who's who's broken into

667
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:26,960
Speaker 1: your house and is now wanting to harm you in

668
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:29,480
Speaker 1: your family, because that's you know, what he likes to do. Right,

669
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:33,400
Speaker 1: that's like the quintessential circumstance where one you'd feel, you

670
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:35,520
Speaker 1: feel fear, you'd feel a lot of things, but you'd

671
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:38,279
Speaker 1: probably also feel hatred for this person, right, Like like

672
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:43,719
Speaker 1: what there's there are few circumstances where hatred feels more

673
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:49,560
Speaker 1: apropos than that. But I do view hatred as always

674
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:55,239
Speaker 1: been somehow extra even in extremists like that, because imagine

675
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 1: just how you'd feel very a superficially similar situation. You know,

676
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:02,279
Speaker 1: you're still you have an attacker in your house, and

677
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:05,160
Speaker 1: you have to defend yourself violently. But that attacker now

678
00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:08,400
Speaker 1: is not a person, it's a it's a wild animal.

679
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:10,600
Speaker 1: You know, a grizzly bear has broken into your house,

680
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 1: or you know, a mountain lion. Right, how You's still

681
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 1: it's still an absolute emergency. Right, You're still going to

682
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 1: have to fight for your life. You're still looking for

683
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 1: a weapon to defend yourself with. Right, You're still contemplating

684
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 1: killing a living being to defend yourself, right in your kids.

685
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:32,720
Speaker 1: But there's an emotional shaving there. Like you as energized

686
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:35,320
Speaker 1: as you would be in the presence of a mountain

687
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 1: lion or in the presence of a grizzly bear, there's

688
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:42,959
Speaker 1: this layer of the layer of hatred doesn't quite fit,

689
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:43,640
Speaker 1: you know.

690
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 2: Because you feel they have less choice.

691
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:47,719
Speaker 1: Yes, of course, a mountain lion is going to be

692
00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:49,400
Speaker 1: a mountain lion, you know. It's like like a mountain

693
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 1: lion can't be other than a mountain lion on some level.

694
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:56,880
Speaker 1: A malicious psychopath can't be other than a malicious psychopath. Right,

695
00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:58,920
Speaker 1: So I think it's I think we do have to

696
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:05,799
Speaker 1: view people on some level as equivalent to forces of nature, right,

697
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 1: you know, we don't. We don't get angry at hurricanes.

698
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:11,960
Speaker 1: But and if we certainly don't hate hurricanes and in

699
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 1: the same way that we could hate another human being,

700
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:17,880
Speaker 1: But if we could lock hurricanes in prison, we would, right,

701
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 1: I mean, they're immensely destructive. You know, we're still trying

702
00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:22,759
Speaker 1: to figure out what to do about them, but it

703
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:26,040
Speaker 1: never gets that we never take this extra step of

704
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 1: actually hating them. And I do think we could have

705
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:33,600
Speaker 1: ethically speaking and psychologically speaking, we can. We can have

706
00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:38,120
Speaker 1: a similar relationship to even the worst human beings while

707
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:40,160
Speaker 1: doing all the things we need to do to defend

708
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:42,399
Speaker 1: ourselves against them. We can put people in prison. We can,

709
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 1: you know, we can. I'm not in favor of the

710
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:50,239
Speaker 1: death penalty for actually these reasons, but because I don't

711
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:52,880
Speaker 1: think anyone creates themselves. I think I don't think anyone

712
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:57,399
Speaker 1: is truly at bottom responsible responsible for being who they are.

713
00:41:57,440 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 1: I mean, if you had the same genes and the

714
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:04,360
Speaker 1: same life life experience of whoever Jeffrey Dahmer, you'd be

715
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:07,359
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Dahmer, right, So like there's no there's no mystery there.

716
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 1: But so I think so I think at bottom, when

717
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:17,000
Speaker 1: you're when you're looking at these these very stark differences

718
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 1: in life outcomes. You're looking at differences in luck, right.

719
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:23,919
Speaker 1: I mean there's there's biological luck, there's circumstantial luck, there's

720
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:26,719
Speaker 1: all kinds of luck, and there's and there's what we

721
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:29,399
Speaker 1: do with the luck. But your capacity to do good

722
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:32,960
Speaker 1: things with even your bad luck is yet more good luck, right,

723
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 1: I mean, something is given you. There's some genetic and

724
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:40,719
Speaker 1: environmental reason why you were set up to pick yourselves up,

725
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 1: pick yourself up by your bootstraps, when somebody else in

726
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:49,080
Speaker 1: the similar situation wasn't right. And so on some level,

727
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:54,360
Speaker 1: there's we have an ethical imperative to acknowledge the massive

728
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:57,799
Speaker 1: role that luck plays in our lives, and I think

729
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:01,319
Speaker 1: we should want to cancel the most egregious differences in

730
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:03,440
Speaker 1: good and bad luck between people. Like so, when we

731
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:07,960
Speaker 1: look at a whole society that is suffering from immense

732
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:11,120
Speaker 1: bad luck because it didn't have the natural resources that

733
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:14,440
Speaker 1: some other society did, or it had those resources, but

734
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:17,399
Speaker 1: even those resources created perverse incentives, and so it has

735
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:21,520
Speaker 1: got some terrible political outcome based on all the level

736
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:23,799
Speaker 1: of corruption that's layered on top of the resources, and

737
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:28,799
Speaker 1: there's just terrible disparities in luck there, right, And so

738
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:33,319
Speaker 1: I think we as a as a global civilization, more

739
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:36,360
Speaker 1: and more as we grow grow wealthier and wealthier and

740
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:41,760
Speaker 1: can take advantage of good luck over here, we should

741
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:47,000
Speaker 1: want to engineer a tide that raises upon which most

742
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:51,440
Speaker 1: are all boats rise more and more. It's not to

743
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:53,359
Speaker 1: say that capitalism is wrong. It's not to say that

744
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 1: we're ever going to completely nullify differences in luck. And

745
00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:59,879
Speaker 1: I think some asymmetries may in fact be the off

746
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:05,080
Speaker 1: them a way to encourage people's creativity and innovation. Right.

747
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:08,600
Speaker 1: So it's like I'm not an agnostic as to be

748
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:11,319
Speaker 1: on some of the questions of how to organize a

749
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 1: society and an economy there, But I do think more

750
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 1: and more we need to recognize that so many of us,

751
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:19,800
Speaker 1: I mean, certainly anyone has got the free time to

752
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:23,480
Speaker 1: listen to this conversation right now, stands a pretty good

753
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:26,439
Speaker 1: chance of being in the top ten percent or even

754
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:30,520
Speaker 1: one percent of humanity with respect to luck. You know,

755
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:34,600
Speaker 1: all the variables, whether it's respective health and wealth and education,

756
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:38,000
Speaker 1: and just just having the free time and attention to

757
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:39,880
Speaker 1: listen to this and be interested in this and to

758
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:42,680
Speaker 1: be asking the kinds of questions we're trying to address

759
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:45,960
Speaker 1: in a conversation like this. We're immensely lucky, and with

760
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:52,000
Speaker 1: that comes a certain responsibility, but also opportunity to spread

761
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:53,600
Speaker 1: the luck around.

762
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:58,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, to create luck for others. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, Yeah.

763
00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:00,520
Speaker 2: I loved where we were going with that. Loved where

764
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:04,680
Speaker 2: we went. But going back to the outrage piece, the

765
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:11,799
Speaker 2: understanding of you know, almost differentiating our hate from outrage,

766
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:16,000
Speaker 2: almost extracting some piece of the ego from it being

767
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:22,640
Speaker 2: petty and individualistic, but that it's for a greater cause. Then, yeah,

768
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:24,960
Speaker 2: how do you go forward with that? Like, what do

769
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 2: you do with that thought, that idea, that feeling. So

770
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:29,920
Speaker 2: you feel pain when someone else is in pain, you

771
00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:33,359
Speaker 2: feel stressed, you feel outrage. As you said, there may

772
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:36,680
Speaker 2: be a petty personal anger to it that triggered us

773
00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:38,919
Speaker 2: in the first place, but we were able to carve

774
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:41,480
Speaker 2: that out and understand that that wasn't the basis of

775
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 2: our real outrage, that there was something bigger.

776
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:46,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, it just then it really just depends on

777
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:49,560
Speaker 1: what the problem is and what the situation is and

778
00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:51,719
Speaker 1: whether you can influence it, right, I mean, if you

779
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:53,840
Speaker 1: can't do anything about it, well, then it's not useful

780
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:58,080
Speaker 1: to be just grinding your gears with outrage. I mean

781
00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:01,160
Speaker 1: that your outrage needs some kind of outlet, you know,

782
00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:03,759
Speaker 1: so if you have some kind of platform upon which

783
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:06,160
Speaker 1: to try to make sense on these important topics, we'll

784
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:11,320
Speaker 1: then do that. But yeah, it's it's it's never useful

785
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:15,960
Speaker 1: to just be privately seething with outrage that has no outlet, right,

786
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:18,520
Speaker 1: so you have to figure out one what, what pragmatically

787
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:21,520
Speaker 1: can you do to accomplish anything useful on the basis

788
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:25,040
Speaker 1: of this emotion. And if there's nothing to do, it's

789
00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:26,759
Speaker 1: great to have the tools. By what you can just

790
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:30,759
Speaker 1: let go of it, right like? And that's and again

791
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:33,759
Speaker 1: that's where meditation comes in. I mean that really is

792
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:36,080
Speaker 1: a kind of superpower. You can just decide, Okay, there's

793
00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 1: there's nothing to do here with this negative emotion, so

794
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:42,240
Speaker 1: now I can just let go of it. And that's

795
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:47,040
Speaker 1: and that's true. It's true for public facing emotion like outrage,

796
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:51,279
Speaker 1: but it's true for a and inwardly facing one like

797
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:54,840
Speaker 1: just anxiety about something that is coming up in the future. Right, So,

798
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:58,759
Speaker 1: like you've got some medical condition, now you need to

799
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:01,640
Speaker 1: get an MRI to see if you've got something scary,

800
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 1: and you can't get the MRI until next Tuesday, right,

801
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:06,960
Speaker 1: So now you've got this time to wait. So the

802
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:11,840
Speaker 1: question is, in the intervening days, how captured are you

803
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:14,239
Speaker 1: going to be by this feeling of anxiety? Is is

804
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:19,280
Speaker 1: there any utility in feeling anxious between now and Tuesday?

805
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:23,000
Speaker 1: And if there's not, wouldn't it be great to actually

806
00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 1: just let go of it? Right? And most people feel

807
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:28,799
Speaker 1: like that's that's pretty hard to do, right, I mean,

808
00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:32,800
Speaker 1: most people don't have tools apart from just diverting themselves,

809
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:35,879
Speaker 1: getting distracting themselves with something else to take their mind

810
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:38,000
Speaker 1: off the thing that they're really sort of thinking about

811
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:40,760
Speaker 1: in the background that they don't want to think about,

812
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:44,239
Speaker 1: but they're helplessly, you know, perseverating on it. But as

813
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:45,759
Speaker 1: far as you know, as far as as far as

814
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:47,879
Speaker 1: acting in the world so as to make the world

815
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:51,080
Speaker 1: a better place, I think, you know, based on outrage

816
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:54,560
Speaker 1: or some other emotion, you know, I'm impressed more and

817
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:59,680
Speaker 1: more by how much that's a story of changing in

818
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:04,120
Speaker 1: saneives at the system level more than it is a

819
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:08,120
Speaker 1: story of improve getting individuals to improve themselves. I think,

820
00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:10,320
Speaker 1: I think individuals should want to improve themselves. And I

821
00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:12,759
Speaker 1: know I want to improve myself, and I you know,

822
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:15,520
Speaker 1: ins far as I can share wisdom about how to

823
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:18,960
Speaker 1: do that, I do that, you know more or less

824
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:23,879
Speaker 1: full time. But there's a there's another level of analysis

825
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:27,680
Speaker 1: and another level of discussion that needs to be applied

826
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:30,480
Speaker 1: to the to the systems in which we're all functioning.

827
00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:34,560
Speaker 1: And we need to recognize that in so many places

828
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:40,160
Speaker 1: we have systems of incentives that are aligned. So it's

829
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:43,399
Speaker 1: to make it actually hard to be a good person, right,

830
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:44,800
Speaker 1: like you need you need to be some kind of

831
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:49,080
Speaker 1: moral hero to be truly ethical given how the system

832
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:54,720
Speaker 1: is tuned. And conversely, totally normal people can be lured

833
00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:58,840
Speaker 1: into behaving more and more like psychopaths in a badly

834
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:01,880
Speaker 1: tuned system where the incentives are all wrong, right, And

835
00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:04,040
Speaker 1: I think more and more we need to be alert

836
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:08,400
Speaker 1: to that, and we need to want to design systems

837
00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:12,960
Speaker 1: where it just becomes easier and easier for ordinary, conflicted,

838
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:17,440
Speaker 1: mediocre people, people who are not even thinking about ethics

839
00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:20,399
Speaker 1: all that much, right, don't want to, They just want

840
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:25,000
Speaker 1: what they want. It's easier for them to behave more

841
00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:29,120
Speaker 1: and more like saints because the incentives are aligned. That

842
00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:34,279
Speaker 1: way to take a example that's recently top of mind. So,

843
00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:37,240
Speaker 1: like we have a problem with the problem of climate change,

844
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:40,960
Speaker 1: you will well intentioned people want to do something about it.

845
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:45,319
Speaker 1: We don't want to create the most profligate harms for

846
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:48,640
Speaker 1: ourselves unnecessarily, right, So it'd be great to have a

847
00:49:49,239 --> 00:49:54,160
Speaker 1: system of incentives and economic opportunities and technologies that just

848
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:56,880
Speaker 1: made it easier and easier to be wise with respect

849
00:49:56,920 --> 00:50:01,160
Speaker 1: to carbon or carbon footprint. There are a lot of

850
00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:03,080
Speaker 1: great ideas in this space, and you know, one of

851
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:05,520
Speaker 1: them is a well, let's let's buy electric cars. Right,

852
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:10,520
Speaker 1: Let's let's transition from a fossil fuel economy of transportation

853
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 1: to an electric one. Well, that sounds wonderful. And I've

854
00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:15,960
Speaker 1: you know, I just I've had an electric car, and

855
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:18,279
Speaker 1: I've i just had to get a new car, and

856
00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:20,799
Speaker 1: I was poised to buy an electric another electric car.

857
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:23,600
Speaker 1: But then I hear on Joe Rogan's podcast from this

858
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:27,479
Speaker 1: guy who's just published a book it's coming out. I've

859
00:50:27,719 --> 00:50:29,480
Speaker 1: forgive me, I've forgotten his name. I think it's uh

860
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:33,440
Speaker 1: Shri Ram Krishnan, but I could have that wrong. But

861
00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:37,400
Speaker 1: he's put his book coming out called Cobalt Read but

862
00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:41,440
Speaker 1: it interested to our podcast with Rogan, which was just

863
00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:47,719
Speaker 1: this litany of horrors that attend what the extraction of

864
00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:50,799
Speaker 1: cobalt from Congo. Right, it's like two percent of the

865
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:54,120
Speaker 1: world's cobalt is in Congo. We use cobalt in all

866
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:58,600
Speaker 1: of our batteries. Basically our supply chain for cobalt is

867
00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:01,799
Speaker 1: on top of just slave labor and child labor and

868
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:04,000
Speaker 1: just you know, kids getting buried alive. I mean, it's

869
00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:06,880
Speaker 1: just it was just as bad as you could imagine.

870
00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:12,600
Speaker 1: And so how here we have a system where we

871
00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:14,879
Speaker 1: all we just we all want to buy the next

872
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:17,520
Speaker 1: electric car because this is the good thing, that this

873
00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:19,879
Speaker 1: was the virtuous thing to do. But now we find

874
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:23,120
Speaker 1: out that the batteries are are soaked in blood. There's

875
00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:25,600
Speaker 1: no good option, right, And now we have to and

876
00:51:25,719 --> 00:51:28,440
Speaker 1: we have to pretend that that we didn't hear that

877
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:31,520
Speaker 1: podcast or the the and the people you know built

878
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:34,160
Speaker 1: designing the batteries, or pretending that they don't know where

879
00:51:34,200 --> 00:51:37,319
Speaker 1: the cobalt comes from. And there's like we need to

880
00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:40,319
Speaker 1: figure out I mean, this is this this itself, it

881
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:42,120
Speaker 1: should be a simple problem to solve, and it would

882
00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:46,120
Speaker 1: just it's probably a few percentage points of profit margin

883
00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:50,960
Speaker 1: that would make the extraction of cobalt a an ethically

884
00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:56,840
Speaker 1: defensible practice, right, and that's probably there's probably some cobalt

885
00:51:56,840 --> 00:52:00,200
Speaker 1: free technology, uh that we could design in the few sure,

886
00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:04,360
Speaker 1: but it's just to get these things right really matters.

887
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:07,280
Speaker 1: And if you don't get them right, you've got people

888
00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:11,120
Speaker 1: who are deeply conflicted about what they're doing or not

889
00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:14,120
Speaker 1: or just not completely unaware of what they're doing and

890
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:18,359
Speaker 1: creating these these massive negative externalities that they might not

891
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:20,799
Speaker 1: even know about, Like like like I could I literally was.

892
00:52:21,200 --> 00:52:24,120
Speaker 1: I mean, I was twenty four hours from buying another

893
00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:28,000
Speaker 1: EV right. So it's like it's not that it's not

894
00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:30,840
Speaker 1: that my loan purchase or not are or not of

895
00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:33,000
Speaker 1: a single car it's going to matter that much in

896
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:35,640
Speaker 1: the scheme of things. But it's like I would have

897
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:39,480
Speaker 1: had I not heard this particular episode of Joe's podcast,

898
00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:42,880
Speaker 1: I would have bought that EV thinking I was doing

899
00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:46,840
Speaker 1: an unimpeachably virtuous thing, right, And now I have a

900
00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:50,040
Speaker 1: much more conflicted decision to make around, you know, what's

901
00:52:50,160 --> 00:52:52,120
Speaker 1: the right car to drive in light of my climate

902
00:52:52,239 --> 00:52:56,399
Speaker 1: change concerns. This is just to say that the individual

903
00:52:57,440 --> 00:53:01,040
Speaker 1: can't solve the cobalt supply chain problem, right, So like

904
00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:02,880
Speaker 1: we need we need these solutions to come at the

905
00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:06,000
Speaker 1: system level and at the institution level. And and that's

906
00:53:06,080 --> 00:53:12,880
Speaker 1: and that's where being a good person is sort of

907
00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:16,719
Speaker 1: beyond the scope of anyone's individual choices, Like like you

908
00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:21,719
Speaker 1: need to we need to collectively solve a massive coordination

909
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:27,839
Speaker 1: problem together where in the act of getting gratifying our desires,

910
00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:33,120
Speaker 1: we are we are are creating less and less harm

911
00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:36,080
Speaker 1: and doing more and more good, more or less effortlessly.

912
00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:38,879
Speaker 1: And that's and that really is. You can have people

913
00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:44,800
Speaker 1: who are just not thinking about purifying anything, behaving in

914
00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:50,040
Speaker 1: really impeccable ways given good incentives. And that's that's more

915
00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:51,040
Speaker 1: and more I'm thinking about that.

916
00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:53,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that you're thinking about that, and I

917
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:56,319
Speaker 2: think it's an idea to put forward though, is that

918
00:53:56,400 --> 00:53:58,080
Speaker 2: it's also that the people that are setting up the

919
00:53:58,080 --> 00:54:00,480
Speaker 2: institutions and the systems are all too individual, so it's

920
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:03,399
Speaker 2: like a vicious cycle. It's like the leaders at the top,

921
00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:06,120
Speaker 2: the people have made all these decisions to go out

922
00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:09,040
Speaker 2: and you know, take all this cobo and make sure

923
00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:13,600
Speaker 2: that it was picked by child slaves or child labor

924
00:54:13,640 --> 00:54:16,120
Speaker 2: or whatever it may be. I haven't listened to the podcast.

925
00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:20,080
Speaker 2: I don't have the context. But someone made that decision

926
00:54:20,600 --> 00:54:24,840
Speaker 2: and some system never thought to correct that because that

927
00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:27,279
Speaker 2: was led by some people. So I think, I mean,

928
00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:29,520
Speaker 2: I agree with you, but I think it's both. It's like,

929
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:36,000
Speaker 2: you know, I think even where systems have been made tight,

930
00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:39,080
Speaker 2: you still see people trying to find a loophole. I mean,

931
00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:42,560
Speaker 2: that's how the human mind is set up. And so

932
00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:46,279
Speaker 2: you've got the loophole mindset of like, Okay, well let

933
00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:48,279
Speaker 2: me find a way to exploit this or manipulate this

934
00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:51,680
Speaker 2: towards my benefit anyway, And so you've got both. I

935
00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:54,520
Speaker 2: think both are important. I think like if you were

936
00:54:54,560 --> 00:54:58,360
Speaker 2: the decision maker, if you were building EVS, you would

937
00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:00,799
Speaker 2: be able to make that system a company and you'd

938
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:02,120
Speaker 2: set it out, but that would come back to you.

939
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:07,280
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, but it could like if we taxed carbon

940
00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:11,919
Speaker 1: instead of taxing incomes. I don't know how that works

941
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:14,200
Speaker 1: out in terms of the balance sheet, but something like that,

942
00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:18,560
Speaker 1: we're we're using a tax to disincentivize something. We want

943
00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:24,839
Speaker 1: to disincentivize pollution, and we're not penalizing something that's intrinsically good,

944
00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:27,640
Speaker 1: just you know, creating value. And being paid for that value,

945
00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:30,160
Speaker 1: which is you know, what income in the best case

946
00:55:30,239 --> 00:55:32,640
Speaker 1: is coming from. So there's that, and then like all

947
00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:34,759
Speaker 1: of a sudden, people would all right, if if it's

948
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:38,319
Speaker 1: costing me money to be polluting, well then I'm going

949
00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:41,839
Speaker 1: to figure out how to not do that. And uh,

950
00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:44,040
Speaker 1: that's just going to be our interests are going to

951
00:55:44,040 --> 00:55:46,600
Speaker 1: be a line there, right, And so there there's probably

952
00:55:46,680 --> 00:55:49,160
Speaker 1: you know, one hundred or a thousand cases like that.

953
00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:52,640
Speaker 1: But where I was going was I've been thinking a

954
00:55:52,640 --> 00:55:56,920
Speaker 1: lot about what has come to be called the effect

955
00:55:56,960 --> 00:55:59,640
Speaker 1: of altruism movement. I mean, just how to do good

956
00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:04,959
Speaker 1: more reliably, more systematically. Many of us have been disillusioned

957
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:08,520
Speaker 1: with with how philanthropy has been done traditionally. It's like

958
00:56:08,560 --> 00:56:12,719
Speaker 1: there's a there's a distinction between This actually comes back

959
00:56:12,760 --> 00:56:15,759
Speaker 1: to some of what we've been talking about with the

960
00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:21,200
Speaker 1: difference between being led by one's emotions and actually understanding

961
00:56:21,480 --> 00:56:24,879
Speaker 1: what the outcomes are in the world that one is accomplishing.

962
00:56:25,320 --> 00:56:27,160
Speaker 1: When you're trying to do good in the world, when

963
00:56:26,719 --> 00:56:30,600
Speaker 1: you're giving to a you know, a children's hospital, say,

964
00:56:30,600 --> 00:56:32,640
Speaker 1: I mean that just seems an intrinsically good thing to do,

965
00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:37,160
Speaker 1: But so much we know that so much of our

966
00:56:37,920 --> 00:56:41,360
Speaker 1: impulse to do good, our impulse toward algruism, or impulse

967
00:56:41,400 --> 00:56:49,360
Speaker 1: toward effective compassion, is driven by the single compelling story,

968
00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:52,040
Speaker 1: the single you know, the single identifiable protagonist, you know,

969
00:56:52,080 --> 00:56:54,640
Speaker 1: the one little girl who's you know, god cancer and

970
00:56:54,680 --> 00:56:57,640
Speaker 1: we can help her. Right, And that we sort of

971
00:56:57,680 --> 00:57:01,400
Speaker 1: go to sleep when we're told statistics, right, So like

972
00:57:01,520 --> 00:57:04,640
Speaker 1: we we don't we perversely we care more about the

973
00:57:04,680 --> 00:57:07,120
Speaker 1: one little girl than we care about the tens of

974
00:57:07,160 --> 00:57:09,680
Speaker 1: thousands of little girls just like her, maybe even the

975
00:57:09,719 --> 00:57:12,839
Speaker 1: tens of thousands of little girls including her. Right. It's

976
00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:15,920
Speaker 1: like you can run psychological experiments where you you show

977
00:57:15,960 --> 00:57:18,160
Speaker 1: people one little girl and you ask them how how

978
00:57:18,200 --> 00:57:20,840
Speaker 1: much they're inclined to help, and how much money they'd give.

979
00:57:21,440 --> 00:57:24,320
Speaker 1: They give the maximum amount, you know, under those conditions.

980
00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:26,560
Speaker 1: If you show them the same little girl and you

981
00:57:26,680 --> 00:57:28,400
Speaker 1: lay her on a story of just how many of

982
00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:31,680
Speaker 1: the other girls there are like her, they're the people's

983
00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:33,800
Speaker 1: compassionate impulse reliably diminishes.

984
00:57:33,920 --> 00:57:34,040
Speaker 2: Right.

985
00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:38,160
Speaker 1: So it's this is clearly a moral bug of our

986
00:57:38,480 --> 00:57:42,320
Speaker 1: operating system. So we know that the good feels we

987
00:57:42,440 --> 00:57:46,080
Speaker 1: get from giving are separable from the from the actual

988
00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:48,600
Speaker 1: effects of of our of our giving in the world.

989
00:57:49,000 --> 00:57:52,000
Speaker 1: So anyway, I've thought, you know more about this, and

990
00:57:52,040 --> 00:57:56,160
Speaker 1: I've brought on, you know, various moral philosophers to speak

991
00:57:56,160 --> 00:57:58,360
Speaker 1: about this on but both on the app and on

992
00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:02,600
Speaker 1: my podcast. And one change I made in response to

993
00:58:02,600 --> 00:58:04,880
Speaker 1: one of these conversations with I was just decided that

994
00:58:05,640 --> 00:58:07,960
Speaker 1: Waking Up as a company would give a minimum of

995
00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:10,920
Speaker 1: ten percent of its profits to the most effective charities

996
00:58:10,920 --> 00:58:14,160
Speaker 1: each year, and I personally would give a minimum of

997
00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:19,120
Speaker 1: ten percent of my pre tax income to charity each year. Now,

998
00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:22,960
Speaker 1: I was already giving money away to charity, and that

999
00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:27,240
Speaker 1: felt good. But once I decided, all right, here's the formula.

1000
00:58:27,280 --> 00:58:30,280
Speaker 1: I have to give this minimum amount. This minimum amount

1001
00:58:30,360 --> 00:58:34,919
Speaker 1: is already allocated to these ends. And what's more, these

1002
00:58:35,040 --> 00:58:38,560
Speaker 1: ends have to be not just charities and causes that

1003
00:58:38,640 --> 00:58:42,640
Speaker 1: I feel really personally engaged by, or just things that

1004
00:58:42,680 --> 00:58:45,240
Speaker 1: I want to support, like you know some you know,

1005
00:58:45,280 --> 00:58:47,680
Speaker 1: I want to give money to a college or a symphony,

1006
00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:50,200
Speaker 1: or it's like something that I or I see somebody's

1007
00:58:50,200 --> 00:58:53,280
Speaker 1: GoFundMe page and it tugs at my heartstrings. I want

1008
00:58:53,280 --> 00:58:56,600
Speaker 1: to give money to that. No, that's all separate. Here's

1009
00:58:56,680 --> 00:59:00,560
Speaker 1: ten percent that's going to charities that I and sober

1010
00:59:00,680 --> 00:59:04,200
Speaker 1: rational Analysis have decided are going to do the most good,

1011
00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:07,200
Speaker 1: irrespective of how I feel about these things, because there

1012
00:59:07,200 --> 00:59:11,920
Speaker 1: are certain causes that I just don't find especially sexy,

1013
00:59:12,320 --> 00:59:14,200
Speaker 1: you know that just not like I just can't. I

1014
00:59:14,240 --> 00:59:18,360
Speaker 1: have to continually rethink my my interest in them, you know,

1015
00:59:18,520 --> 00:59:22,760
Speaker 1: but they are objectively if you want to want to

1016
00:59:22,800 --> 00:59:25,720
Speaker 1: save a life, you know, per unit, per per dollar

1017
00:59:25,800 --> 00:59:27,600
Speaker 1: put into the system, this is the best use of

1018
00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:28,520
Speaker 1: your dollars.

1019
00:59:28,600 --> 00:59:28,720
Speaker 2: Right.

1020
00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:32,680
Speaker 1: One has been you know, malaria mitigation in sub Saharan

1021
00:59:32,680 --> 00:59:36,000
Speaker 1: Africa just just bed malarial bed nets, right Like, that's

1022
00:59:36,360 --> 00:59:39,200
Speaker 1: I just can't get too excited about handing out bed nets, right,

1023
00:59:39,240 --> 00:59:43,120
Speaker 1: but that's something that's worth supporting. So I just decided that, okay,

1024
00:59:43,960 --> 00:59:46,440
Speaker 1: GiveWell dot org is it has not run this analysis.

1025
00:59:46,600 --> 00:59:52,640
Speaker 1: They're a great source of information about effective charities. Here

1026
00:59:52,640 --> 00:59:55,280
Speaker 1: are their top ten charities. Whether I find these sexy

1027
00:59:55,360 --> 00:59:58,040
Speaker 1: or not, I know I can outsource the cognitive labor

1028
00:59:58,080 --> 01:00:00,880
Speaker 1: to these people because I've spoken to them enough, I've

1029
01:00:00,960 --> 01:00:03,480
Speaker 1: analyzed what they've done. They're doing enough. This is their

1030
01:00:03,480 --> 01:00:06,360
Speaker 1: full time job, all right, you know, until I hear otherwise,

1031
01:00:06,960 --> 01:00:10,800
Speaker 1: I'm going to take their advice. It doesn't matter how

1032
01:00:10,800 --> 01:00:12,960
Speaker 1: I feel about these charities, right, I'm going to get

1033
01:00:12,960 --> 01:00:16,280
Speaker 1: my good feels elsewhere. But what's happened is once I

1034
01:00:16,400 --> 01:00:20,040
Speaker 1: decided that I'm going to give this amount of money

1035
01:00:20,080 --> 01:00:23,520
Speaker 1: to charity each year, and it's happening by default, whether

1036
01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:25,920
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about it or not, whether I'm gratified by

1037
01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:28,880
Speaker 1: it or not. A very interesting thing flipped one is

1038
01:00:29,480 --> 01:00:32,600
Speaker 1: when I confront all these other opportunities to give money

1039
01:00:32,600 --> 01:00:37,439
Speaker 1: away that are tugging on my heartstrings, they almost show

1040
01:00:37,520 --> 01:00:40,040
Speaker 1: up as a as a kind of guilty pleasure. Like

1041
01:00:40,200 --> 01:00:42,400
Speaker 1: I literally have had the feeling of giving money to

1042
01:00:42,440 --> 01:00:46,840
Speaker 1: a children's hospital or giving money to somebody's GoFundMe page,

1043
01:00:46,920 --> 01:00:53,240
Speaker 1: And it's almost leveraging the same greedy circuits in the

1044
01:00:53,280 --> 01:00:56,800
Speaker 1: brain as you'd get if you're like opening a catalog

1045
01:00:58,120 --> 01:01:01,360
Speaker 1: and you want everything on both pages. It's like it's

1046
01:01:01,400 --> 01:01:05,600
Speaker 1: like like it's it is a it's a very visceral

1047
01:01:05,640 --> 01:01:11,680
Speaker 1: experience of selfishness and selflessness totally merging. And it's like

1048
01:01:11,840 --> 01:01:15,240
Speaker 1: it's like why selfishness is the same thing as selflessness,

1049
01:01:15,640 --> 01:01:18,000
Speaker 1: But it has the energy of like I really I

1050
01:01:18,080 --> 01:01:21,480
Speaker 1: want to do this and because I sort of know

1051
01:01:21,600 --> 01:01:26,280
Speaker 1: I I've rationally allocated to this a certain amount of

1052
01:01:26,320 --> 01:01:29,520
Speaker 1: doing this good kind of automatically sort of even out

1053
01:01:29,560 --> 01:01:31,120
Speaker 1: of side and out of mind. I'm not spending a

1054
01:01:31,120 --> 01:01:32,960
Speaker 1: lot of time thinking about where that money is going.

1055
01:01:33,560 --> 01:01:36,680
Speaker 1: It's sort of changed my relationship to all these other

1056
01:01:36,720 --> 01:01:40,160
Speaker 1: occasions where I'm having to decide on the basis of

1057
01:01:40,160 --> 01:01:42,439
Speaker 1: my intuitions moment to moment whether I want to give

1058
01:01:42,440 --> 01:01:44,440
Speaker 1: and how much to give. And it's it's really just

1059
01:01:44,560 --> 01:01:47,040
Speaker 1: kind of flipped everything upside down in a way that's interesting.

1060
01:01:47,720 --> 01:01:50,439
Speaker 1: And again it's it's it's all based on having made

1061
01:01:50,480 --> 01:01:55,600
Speaker 1: a sort of system level default change that is a

1062
01:01:55,720 --> 01:01:58,960
Speaker 1: sort of hidden structure in which I'm now moving, right.

1063
01:01:59,280 --> 01:02:02,320
Speaker 1: It's because again I'm not, until you make a decision

1064
01:02:02,400 --> 01:02:06,560
Speaker 1: like that, you're constantly rethinking what you want to do.

1065
01:02:06,600 --> 01:02:08,120
Speaker 1: It's almost like going on a diet. Like if you

1066
01:02:08,160 --> 01:02:11,000
Speaker 1: decide like I don't need dairy anymore, right, so, once

1067
01:02:11,040 --> 01:02:13,520
Speaker 1: you don't need dairy anymore, I eat a lot of dairy.

1068
01:02:13,520 --> 01:02:17,320
Speaker 1: But if one it didn't eat dairy anymore, you just

1069
01:02:17,360 --> 01:02:19,600
Speaker 1: it's just a bright line. And then you you're not

1070
01:02:19,720 --> 01:02:22,720
Speaker 1: you're not constantly rethinking whether you're going to have ice cream?

1071
01:02:22,760 --> 01:02:25,080
Speaker 1: And if so, how much? And and so it's it's

1072
01:02:25,080 --> 01:02:26,160
Speaker 1: massively clarifying.

1073
01:02:26,760 --> 01:02:29,120
Speaker 2: That's that's a great example that really hit true. Yeah,

1074
01:02:29,160 --> 01:02:33,640
Speaker 2: the clarity of constraints right, having having borders and boundaries

1075
01:02:33,680 --> 01:02:37,200
Speaker 2: and constraints allowing you to not waste as much time

1076
01:02:37,240 --> 01:02:42,520
Speaker 2: and energy on on figuring that out moment by moment. Yeah,

1077
01:02:42,560 --> 01:02:44,960
Speaker 2: I've got I've got two more questions for you, some

1078
01:02:45,440 --> 01:02:47,720
Speaker 2: that I want to make sure I ask you today.

1079
01:02:48,080 --> 01:02:50,000
Speaker 2: How does someone like you, as a as a meditator

1080
01:02:50,120 --> 01:02:53,000
Speaker 2: for so many years, as someone who's so thoughtful about

1081
01:02:53,040 --> 01:02:56,040
Speaker 2: these topics, as somebody who wants to see change in

1082
01:02:56,080 --> 01:02:58,560
Speaker 2: the systems and institutions as well, how do you interact

1083
01:02:58,600 --> 01:03:01,439
Speaker 2: with the news Because I find that to be such

1084
01:03:01,480 --> 01:03:04,040
Speaker 2: a source of anxiety and stress for so many people

1085
01:03:04,440 --> 01:03:07,120
Speaker 2: who are probably listening to us right now, and so

1086
01:03:07,320 --> 01:03:12,080
Speaker 2: i'd love to hear how you've built a healthier, hopefully systematic,

1087
01:03:12,440 --> 01:03:14,040
Speaker 2: logical relationship with the news.

1088
01:03:14,360 --> 01:03:18,680
Speaker 1: Well, it changed recently for me because I deleted my

1089
01:03:18,720 --> 01:03:21,480
Speaker 1: Twitter account, which was where I was getting a lot

1090
01:03:21,520 --> 01:03:24,160
Speaker 1: of my news. I was not getting the news from

1091
01:03:24,200 --> 01:03:26,360
Speaker 1: Twitter per se, but I was just seeing I was

1092
01:03:26,360 --> 01:03:29,120
Speaker 1: following lots of smart people and seeing what articles they

1093
01:03:29,120 --> 01:03:31,400
Speaker 1: were recommending. As I was going through that as a

1094
01:03:32,200 --> 01:03:35,919
Speaker 1: it was kind of like my news feed. So I still,

1095
01:03:35,960 --> 01:03:37,280
Speaker 1: you know, I read the New York Times, I read

1096
01:03:37,280 --> 01:03:40,280
Speaker 1: The Atlantic. There's so many things I read, and so

1097
01:03:41,640 --> 01:03:45,640
Speaker 1: I see the news in various channels. But I was

1098
01:03:45,760 --> 01:03:51,200
Speaker 1: using Twitter as the first filter on that, and that,

1099
01:03:51,320 --> 01:03:56,760
Speaker 1: for a variety of reasons, became really toxic for me,

1100
01:03:56,840 --> 01:04:00,680
Speaker 1: and and toxic in a way that I was convinced misleading.

1101
01:04:00,720 --> 01:04:02,200
Speaker 1: I mean, that was the thing that got me to

1102
01:04:02,240 --> 01:04:04,280
Speaker 1: finally just kind of rip the band aid off, because

1103
01:04:04,360 --> 01:04:06,720
Speaker 1: I it wasn't just that I was seeing the worst

1104
01:04:06,760 --> 01:04:10,200
Speaker 1: of people and that was having a certain effect. I

1105
01:04:10,360 --> 01:04:14,640
Speaker 1: was convinced that I was seeing people at their worst

1106
01:04:14,680 --> 01:04:16,800
Speaker 1: who are actually not as bad as they were seeming

1107
01:04:16,800 --> 01:04:19,320
Speaker 1: to me on Twitter. Like what Twitter was calling out

1108
01:04:19,560 --> 01:04:22,880
Speaker 1: of them was just a misleading picture of who they

1109
01:04:22,880 --> 01:04:25,240
Speaker 1: actually are, because in some cases I knew, I knew

1110
01:04:25,240 --> 01:04:27,600
Speaker 1: the people in real life, and I'm seeing them behave

1111
01:04:28,120 --> 01:04:30,880
Speaker 1: in abominable ways on Twitter, and I just think, all right,

1112
01:04:30,920 --> 01:04:33,400
Speaker 1: this is this isn't all. This is just a fun

1113
01:04:33,440 --> 01:04:37,560
Speaker 1: house mirror that isn't psychological, psychologically healthy, to keep staring

1114
01:04:37,600 --> 01:04:40,920
Speaker 1: into day after day after day, and also just so

1115
01:04:40,920 --> 01:04:43,080
Speaker 1: many of the things that I was It was it

1116
01:04:43,160 --> 01:04:47,560
Speaker 1: was amplifying stories that I was, you know, as a podcaster,

1117
01:04:47,680 --> 01:04:50,120
Speaker 1: I was tempted to react to and I felt like

1118
01:04:50,160 --> 01:04:52,360
Speaker 1: I was getting a misleading signal as to just how

1119
01:04:53,200 --> 01:04:57,280
Speaker 1: salient or representative those stories are of the way the

1120
01:04:57,280 --> 01:04:59,440
Speaker 1: world is. Right, So like, it's just it was just

1121
01:04:59,520 --> 01:05:02,960
Speaker 1: the phenomenal and being too online ultimately, right, Yeah, So

1122
01:05:03,000 --> 01:05:06,520
Speaker 1: my so ins far as Twitter was news or a

1123
01:05:06,560 --> 01:05:09,440
Speaker 1: simula crom of news, that has really changed for me.

1124
01:05:09,520 --> 01:05:13,280
Speaker 1: I just I just am not seeing it and now

1125
01:05:13,360 --> 01:05:17,120
Speaker 1: I just yeah, I mean, I have a few sources

1126
01:05:17,200 --> 01:05:20,800
Speaker 1: of news that I go to, as you know, more

1127
01:05:20,880 --> 01:05:26,919
Speaker 1: or less reflexively. But again it's it's more and more

1128
01:05:27,080 --> 01:05:32,280
Speaker 1: I'm asking the question, what do I want my moment

1129
01:05:32,440 --> 01:05:35,320
Speaker 1: to moment life to be like, you know, and who

1130
01:05:35,360 --> 01:05:36,680
Speaker 1: do I want to be at the end of the

1131
01:05:36,760 --> 01:05:39,720
Speaker 1: day when I'm hanging out with my wife and kids, right,

1132
01:05:39,720 --> 01:05:44,080
Speaker 1: and what are the consequences of having spent my attentional

1133
01:05:44,120 --> 01:05:48,760
Speaker 1: budget over the previous hours in one way versus another?

1134
01:05:49,080 --> 01:05:52,440
Speaker 1: And Twitter, for me, honestly was it was a big

1135
01:05:52,600 --> 01:05:55,160
Speaker 1: change because it was like getting out of an unhealthy relationship.

1136
01:05:55,160 --> 01:05:57,360
Speaker 1: And that was just for all my talk about meditation

1137
01:05:57,480 --> 01:06:00,480
Speaker 1: and being able to unhook from anger and other days.

1138
01:06:01,040 --> 01:06:02,920
Speaker 1: I mean, I could unhook and I could let go

1139
01:06:03,000 --> 01:06:05,680
Speaker 1: of of negative emotion and et cetera. And it's not

1140
01:06:05,720 --> 01:06:09,840
Speaker 1: that the tools don't work, but I was spending a

1141
01:06:09,880 --> 01:06:15,960
Speaker 1: lot of time looking into this very deranging space. And

1142
01:06:16,400 --> 01:06:18,840
Speaker 1: it's not deranging for everybody but for me because because

1143
01:06:19,080 --> 01:06:21,920
Speaker 1: what's unique about my job. But my approach to my

1144
01:06:22,040 --> 01:06:24,880
Speaker 1: job is that, you know, I criticize the right and

1145
01:06:24,960 --> 01:06:28,320
Speaker 1: left politically, you know, a lot, and you know, with

1146
01:06:28,480 --> 01:06:32,080
Speaker 1: sort of equal ferocity, and so I get so I'm

1147
01:06:32,080 --> 01:06:34,680
Speaker 1: not I'm not tribally aligned with anyone, and I get

1148
01:06:34,760 --> 01:06:38,320
Speaker 1: a lot of pain from both sides. And it's it's

1149
01:06:38,360 --> 01:06:40,880
Speaker 1: a lot of it's it's not honest pain. It's not

1150
01:06:40,920 --> 01:06:44,040
Speaker 1: like it's it's not like honest criticism of views I

1151
01:06:44,080 --> 01:06:46,600
Speaker 1: actually hold. It's like lots of lying about views that

1152
01:06:46,640 --> 01:06:49,640
Speaker 1: I don't hold. And you know, it's just it's just misrepresentations.

1153
01:06:49,640 --> 01:06:52,360
Speaker 1: And people take, you know, clips out of context, and

1154
01:06:52,400 --> 01:06:55,320
Speaker 1: I mean people people cut together clips of my podcast

1155
01:06:55,360 --> 01:06:57,680
Speaker 1: that where I am seeming to say the opposite of

1156
01:06:57,720 --> 01:06:59,680
Speaker 1: what I in fact said in context, and they release

1157
01:06:59,720 --> 01:07:02,880
Speaker 1: those and the people with big platforms, you know, retweet them.

1158
01:07:02,960 --> 01:07:08,040
Speaker 1: So it was a pervasive experience for me of seeing

1159
01:07:08,120 --> 01:07:13,360
Speaker 1: myself lied about and then wondering whether there's anything I

1160
01:07:13,360 --> 01:07:15,720
Speaker 1: should do about that, right, And so it was this

1161
01:07:16,000 --> 01:07:20,600
Speaker 1: very sticky invitation to getting sucked in because like, Okay,

1162
01:07:21,000 --> 01:07:23,480
Speaker 1: that's not what I said, that's not what I meant that.

1163
01:07:23,760 --> 01:07:26,200
Speaker 1: Now I'm seeing the evidence of lots of people being

1164
01:07:26,280 --> 01:07:31,160
Speaker 1: misled by this misrepresentation, and it bothers me. And I'm

1165
01:07:31,160 --> 01:07:33,680
Speaker 1: pretty sure it should bother me because I's like, this

1166
01:07:33,720 --> 01:07:35,800
Speaker 1: is not the outcome I want, right, And it's not

1167
01:07:35,840 --> 01:07:37,600
Speaker 1: why I have a podcast, and it's not why I

1168
01:07:37,600 --> 01:07:40,320
Speaker 1: went on that other person's podcast, And so there's some

1169
01:07:40,400 --> 01:07:43,440
Speaker 1: burden on me to try to clarify the misunderstanding. And

1170
01:07:43,480 --> 01:07:47,959
Speaker 1: I was continually getting sucked into the illusion that clarification

1171
01:07:48,120 --> 01:07:50,040
Speaker 1: was possible, right, So I would try because I really

1172
01:07:50,040 --> 01:07:52,840
Speaker 1: wanted to use Twitter as a channel of communication. It

1173
01:07:52,880 --> 01:07:55,160
Speaker 1: was the only social media platform I ever used. I'd

1174
01:07:55,160 --> 01:07:58,520
Speaker 1: never used Facebook, or I have Facebook and Instagram accounts,

1175
01:07:58,520 --> 01:08:01,520
Speaker 1: but those are just marketing, you know, channels from my team.

1176
01:08:01,560 --> 01:08:04,400
Speaker 1: I'm never on those so I was on Twitter. It

1177
01:08:04,440 --> 01:08:07,440
Speaker 1: really was me, and I was, you know, as much

1178
01:08:07,440 --> 01:08:09,400
Speaker 1: as I could step away from it because it seemed

1179
01:08:09,440 --> 01:08:12,960
Speaker 1: unhealthy for a time, I kept seeing the evidence of

1180
01:08:13,000 --> 01:08:17,080
Speaker 1: confusion and misrepresentation. I thought, I'm just going to try

1181
01:08:17,080 --> 01:08:20,080
Speaker 1: again to clarify things right, And that was that was

1182
01:08:20,120 --> 01:08:22,679
Speaker 1: such an unrewarding experience that it was just it was

1183
01:08:22,800 --> 01:08:28,200
Speaker 1: it was creating a residue of despair and contempt. I mean,

1184
01:08:28,240 --> 01:08:30,720
Speaker 1: I just I just felt it just felt polluted by

1185
01:08:31,320 --> 01:08:34,120
Speaker 1: I just felt like I had met like all the

1186
01:08:34,160 --> 01:08:36,680
Speaker 1: psychopaths in the world on a daily basis, Like there

1187
01:08:36,680 --> 01:08:39,640
Speaker 1: can't be as many psychopaths in the world as I

1188
01:08:39,760 --> 01:08:42,840
Speaker 1: was seemed to be meeting online. As much as I

1189
01:08:42,880 --> 01:08:46,280
Speaker 1: could step away from it and just say and put

1190
01:08:46,320 --> 01:08:49,599
Speaker 1: it down, I kept picking it up again, and so

1191
01:08:49,640 --> 01:08:53,120
Speaker 1: I just thought, this is crazy. So I just ripped

1192
01:08:53,160 --> 01:08:56,320
Speaker 1: it off. And that's been an immense change. I mean,

1193
01:08:56,320 --> 01:08:58,479
Speaker 1: it's really it's so sometimes you need to actually do

1194
01:08:58,600 --> 01:09:01,000
Speaker 1: the thing that is you can you can't just keep

1195
01:09:01,760 --> 01:09:06,040
Speaker 1: putting yourself in this dysfunctional situation and then processing your reaction.

1196
01:09:06,400 --> 01:09:08,080
Speaker 1: It's like you have to ask yourself, why are you

1197
01:09:08,120 --> 01:09:09,679
Speaker 1: doing this? Why are you spending your time and attention

1198
01:09:09,720 --> 01:09:12,240
Speaker 1: this way in the first place, And so for me

1199
01:09:12,280 --> 01:09:14,800
Speaker 1: it was Twitter. I mean I understand other people, you know,

1200
01:09:14,840 --> 01:09:17,080
Speaker 1: depending on what they could just be putting. If they're

1201
01:09:17,080 --> 01:09:19,680
Speaker 1: sharing cat videos on Twitter, they're just getting nothing but love, right,

1202
01:09:19,680 --> 01:09:21,519
Speaker 1: and they have no idea what I'm talking about. But

1203
01:09:21,720 --> 01:09:24,559
Speaker 1: trust me, it's possible to have a truly lousy experience

1204
01:09:24,600 --> 01:09:25,000
Speaker 1: on Twitter.

1205
01:09:25,400 --> 01:09:27,639
Speaker 2: What if anything would bring you back? Because I love

1206
01:09:27,680 --> 01:09:30,679
Speaker 2: what you're saying there that you know, if you're doing

1207
01:09:30,720 --> 01:09:32,599
Speaker 2: the same thing, it's giving you the same result. You've

1208
01:09:32,600 --> 01:09:34,040
Speaker 2: tried a new thing with it, it's giving you the

1209
01:09:34,040 --> 01:09:36,880
Speaker 2: same result. Sometimes you have to cut it off to

1210
01:09:37,240 --> 01:09:40,960
Speaker 2: create a healthier balance, to reconfigure to do the work

1211
01:09:41,000 --> 01:09:43,080
Speaker 2: you want to do. What if anything would allow you

1212
01:09:43,120 --> 01:09:45,479
Speaker 2: to go back to it, or how would you see

1213
01:09:45,520 --> 01:09:48,280
Speaker 2: yourself if you were to go back to it in

1214
01:09:48,320 --> 01:09:50,679
Speaker 2: a healthier way. I'm thinking of all the people who

1215
01:09:51,120 --> 01:09:53,759
Speaker 2: cut things out their lives because they need to feel

1216
01:09:53,760 --> 01:09:56,599
Speaker 2: that distance from it because it's taken a hold of them.

1217
01:09:57,120 --> 01:09:59,160
Speaker 2: But then they know that in reality they might have

1218
01:09:59,200 --> 01:09:59,880
Speaker 2: to go back it work.

1219
01:10:00,760 --> 01:10:03,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I'm not planning to go back. I don't

1220
01:10:04,439 --> 01:10:06,519
Speaker 1: really see that. I don't I don't think, I mean,

1221
01:10:06,600 --> 01:10:09,400
Speaker 1: for marketing, I don't need it. Yeah, it's not well,

1222
01:10:09,479 --> 01:10:11,040
Speaker 1: I missed it. I missed the good parts of it.

1223
01:10:11,439 --> 01:10:13,559
Speaker 1: I mean, because I was following a lot of smart,

1224
01:10:13,600 --> 01:10:16,040
Speaker 1: funny people and the just entertaining. But the truth is,

1225
01:10:16,080 --> 01:10:22,760
Speaker 1: even the good parts were ultimately diverting in a way

1226
01:10:22,800 --> 01:10:25,720
Speaker 1: that in retrospect feels like a bit of a just

1227
01:10:25,720 --> 01:10:27,400
Speaker 1: a waste of time. You know. It's just like I'm

1228
01:10:27,400 --> 01:10:30,920
Speaker 1: getting I didn't have to spend as much time even

1229
01:10:30,960 --> 01:10:33,200
Speaker 1: with the good parts of it. You know, It's just

1230
01:10:33,400 --> 01:10:37,120
Speaker 1: it was kind of like, you know, just like too

1231
01:10:37,120 --> 01:10:39,800
Speaker 1: many carbs in that part of my information diet. You know.

1232
01:10:39,960 --> 01:10:42,160
Speaker 1: That's what Twitter was. It was all carbs. I mean,

1233
01:10:42,200 --> 01:10:44,320
Speaker 1: if I went back, I would just yeah, I would

1234
01:10:44,360 --> 01:10:47,920
Speaker 1: probably use it much more like I use or don't

1235
01:10:47,920 --> 01:10:49,800
Speaker 1: even use my other social media channels. I would just

1236
01:10:49,920 --> 01:10:52,200
Speaker 1: use it as I would have someone post for me

1237
01:10:52,320 --> 01:10:54,519
Speaker 1: or I would post and without ever looking about what's

1238
01:10:54,520 --> 01:10:55,800
Speaker 1: coming back and me. And there are people, there are

1239
01:10:55,840 --> 01:10:58,320
Speaker 1: people who get a lot of negative stuff coming back

1240
01:10:58,320 --> 01:10:59,519
Speaker 1: at them and they just never see it because they

1241
01:10:59,640 --> 01:11:02,479
Speaker 1: just never And that's I could have been one of

1242
01:11:02,520 --> 01:11:05,080
Speaker 1: those people. And I was that sort of person for

1243
01:11:05,320 --> 01:11:08,960
Speaker 1: you know, some periods of time. But I just kept

1244
01:11:09,520 --> 01:11:15,480
Speaker 1: getting lured by the technology, by the promise of clarifying confusion,

1245
01:11:15,640 --> 01:11:18,040
Speaker 1: you know, because here the like the person just says

1246
01:11:18,040 --> 01:11:19,600
Speaker 1: something to me and I can say something back, and

1247
01:11:19,720 --> 01:11:22,280
Speaker 1: why not, you know, and for strangely it did. None

1248
01:11:22,280 --> 01:11:25,920
Speaker 1: of the other social media platforms have ever hooked hooked

1249
01:11:25,920 --> 01:11:27,760
Speaker 1: me in that way. I've never been tempted to get

1250
01:11:27,800 --> 01:11:31,160
Speaker 1: on Facebook or Instagram and use it in that way.

1251
01:11:31,200 --> 01:11:33,559
Speaker 1: And I'm not looking for a substitute for Twitter, I mean,

1252
01:11:33,600 --> 01:11:36,879
Speaker 1: so that that is interesting. There's many people are recommending

1253
01:11:36,880 --> 01:11:39,800
Speaker 1: substitutes where they're you know, building a new platform, you know,

1254
01:11:39,880 --> 01:11:43,160
Speaker 1: they got off Twitter for whatever reason. But it's not

1255
01:11:43,600 --> 01:11:46,400
Speaker 1: I'm just not tempted to fill that the Twitter shaped

1256
01:11:46,439 --> 01:11:48,920
Speaker 1: hole in my life with anything else. So that's good.

1257
01:11:49,000 --> 01:11:50,920
Speaker 2: I love that, all right. And then one last question

1258
01:11:50,960 --> 01:11:54,880
Speaker 2: before we dive into the final five is we spoke

1259
01:11:54,880 --> 01:11:57,120
Speaker 2: about this right at the beginning, and you men mentioned

1260
01:11:57,120 --> 01:12:01,040
Speaker 2: the you know, the problem, the impact eminent problem, like

1261
01:12:01,360 --> 01:12:05,800
Speaker 2: how do you see yourself thinking about or meditating on,

1262
01:12:05,960 --> 01:12:10,479
Speaker 2: or preparing for death or the the impermanence of life,

1263
01:12:10,520 --> 01:12:14,440
Speaker 2: Like how does that come into your consciousness?

1264
01:12:15,160 --> 01:12:17,840
Speaker 1: Well, there are really two sides to it. I mean,

1265
01:12:17,880 --> 01:12:20,559
Speaker 1: there's your own death and then there's the deaths of

1266
01:12:20,760 --> 01:12:23,799
Speaker 1: everyone you care about, and that's those are really different

1267
01:12:23,840 --> 01:12:28,840
Speaker 1: problems in a way. And it's yeah, so when I

1268
01:12:28,880 --> 01:12:32,400
Speaker 1: when I think of the the experience of having those

1269
01:12:32,439 --> 01:12:36,400
Speaker 1: close to me die, that's I mean, I know, I

1270
01:12:36,479 --> 01:12:38,519
Speaker 1: mean it's already happened, and I've gone through that with

1271
01:12:38,720 --> 01:12:42,240
Speaker 1: in the cases of certain people. And you know, if

1272
01:12:42,360 --> 01:12:44,360
Speaker 1: if I'm lucky enough to live a long time, well

1273
01:12:44,360 --> 01:12:47,160
Speaker 1: then it's going to it's going to happen. So I'm

1274
01:12:47,160 --> 01:12:50,720
Speaker 1: sure many times again. And I mean it's a fundamentally

1275
01:12:50,800 --> 01:12:55,400
Speaker 1: mysterious thing. I mean, the fact that we drop out

1276
01:12:55,439 --> 01:12:59,880
Speaker 1: the bottom of this place is just it's it's truly imponderable,

1277
01:13:00,080 --> 01:13:06,000
Speaker 1: you know. And yet I know that it's possible to

1278
01:13:06,120 --> 01:13:10,519
Speaker 1: be happy in the absence of everyone, right, I mean,

1279
01:13:10,520 --> 01:13:12,360
Speaker 1: there's there's some paradoxes here. Like you and I are

1280
01:13:12,400 --> 01:13:17,120
Speaker 1: having this conversation now, basically everyone we love is not here,

1281
01:13:17,520 --> 01:13:18,920
Speaker 1: you know, like you and I just met, you know,

1282
01:13:18,960 --> 01:13:21,720
Speaker 1: so it's like, so we're just we're just getting to

1283
01:13:21,720 --> 01:13:24,479
Speaker 1: know each other. You know. My mom's not here, my

1284
01:13:24,520 --> 01:13:26,439
Speaker 1: wife's not here, my kids are not here. You've got

1285
01:13:26,439 --> 01:13:28,240
Speaker 1: your list of people you love who are not here.

1286
01:13:28,720 --> 01:13:31,040
Speaker 1: It's okay to not be with the people we love,

1287
01:13:31,280 --> 01:13:34,000
Speaker 1: so we know that, right and to take the other side,

1288
01:13:34,080 --> 01:13:37,960
Speaker 1: or like what it's like to personally die, say, you know,

1289
01:13:38,000 --> 01:13:41,840
Speaker 1: we we go to sleep each night and we were

1290
01:13:41,840 --> 01:13:46,880
Speaker 1: not It's not only is it okay to completely relinquish

1291
01:13:47,040 --> 01:13:49,679
Speaker 1: our hold on this world. I mean we we we

1292
01:13:49,680 --> 01:13:52,200
Speaker 1: we we yearn for it. Like if you're if you

1293
01:13:52,240 --> 01:13:55,679
Speaker 1: got insomnia, if you can't fall asleep, that becomes a problem.

1294
01:13:56,000 --> 01:14:00,439
Speaker 1: You're desperate to lose your your seeing and hearing, smelling

1295
01:14:00,479 --> 01:14:03,240
Speaker 1: and tasting and touching and thinking. You just want to

1296
01:14:03,439 --> 01:14:09,000
Speaker 1: you want to completely get zeroed out every night. And

1297
01:14:09,080 --> 01:14:12,240
Speaker 1: that's you know, if if if nothing happens after death,

1298
01:14:12,280 --> 01:14:14,559
Speaker 1: I mean, people we can leave aside the possibility that

1299
01:14:14,560 --> 01:14:17,679
Speaker 1: that they're you know that death is in some sense

1300
01:14:17,720 --> 01:14:20,040
Speaker 1: an illusion. But if if you really just get a

1301
01:14:20,080 --> 01:14:22,960
Speaker 1: dial tone after you die, right, if really there's just nothing,

1302
01:14:23,600 --> 01:14:26,200
Speaker 1: it's somewhat analogous to sleep. I mean, it's like the

1303
01:14:26,280 --> 01:14:29,920
Speaker 1: lights go out right every night. We do that and

1304
01:14:29,960 --> 01:14:32,720
Speaker 1: we do it happily, and it's not as there's no

1305
01:14:33,479 --> 01:14:36,519
Speaker 1: you know, I guess some people have sleep issues where

1306
01:14:36,520 --> 01:14:39,280
Speaker 1: they're afraid to fall asleep, but that's certainly not the

1307
01:14:39,280 --> 01:14:43,400
Speaker 1: common case, right, and so to the contrary, we yearn

1308
01:14:43,479 --> 01:14:48,519
Speaker 1: for it. So it is somewhat paradoxical that these like

1309
01:14:48,800 --> 01:14:51,920
Speaker 1: the worst thing about life, that the thing that that

1310
01:14:52,240 --> 01:14:55,320
Speaker 1: people are terrified to experience themselves, and it's they're terrified

1311
01:14:55,360 --> 01:14:58,360
Speaker 1: to experience in the case of of losing the people

1312
01:14:58,360 --> 01:15:02,840
Speaker 1: they love. We in the most routine way, we have

1313
01:15:03,040 --> 01:15:07,400
Speaker 1: really analogous experiences that are fine, right, So, like you're

1314
01:15:07,439 --> 01:15:10,000
Speaker 1: fine alone in a room and you're fine to go

1315
01:15:10,040 --> 01:15:12,479
Speaker 1: to sleep, and these are there's a there's a bit

1316
01:15:12,520 --> 01:15:14,920
Speaker 1: of death in both of these things, because you're everyone

1317
01:15:14,960 --> 01:15:19,040
Speaker 1: you love really is absent, and when you fall asleep,

1318
01:15:19,080 --> 01:15:21,400
Speaker 1: you really forget everything about your life in this world,

1319
01:15:21,520 --> 01:15:23,599
Speaker 1: you know, until until you start dreaming, and then you're

1320
01:15:24,200 --> 01:15:27,120
Speaker 1: completely confused about your life and some other circumstance unless

1321
01:15:27,120 --> 01:15:30,360
Speaker 1: it's elucid dream, which is to say that it's actually

1322
01:15:30,400 --> 01:15:37,559
Speaker 1: it's it's possible to be okay ultimately even with the

1323
01:15:37,600 --> 01:15:40,080
Speaker 1: with the reality of death from both from either side.

1324
01:15:40,200 --> 01:15:43,720
Speaker 1: You know, I'm not I'm I'm certainly expecting to to

1325
01:15:43,880 --> 01:15:46,360
Speaker 1: grieve with the next time someone close to me dies.

1326
01:15:46,400 --> 01:15:48,840
Speaker 1: You know, I'm not expecting the place, but that is

1327
01:15:48,880 --> 01:15:52,439
Speaker 1: a I understand that that as an expression of love.

1328
01:15:52,560 --> 01:15:55,720
Speaker 1: First of all, ask yourself if you'd even want to

1329
01:15:55,720 --> 01:15:59,280
Speaker 1: be without the experience of grief. I mean, ask yourself,

1330
01:15:59,439 --> 01:16:02,880
Speaker 1: for instance, what you would want to do in the

1331
01:16:02,920 --> 01:16:08,640
Speaker 1: event that we had designed a perfect cure for grief, right, Like,

1332
01:16:08,680 --> 01:16:10,599
Speaker 1: let'll say a pill like like the perfect and it's

1333
01:16:10,640 --> 01:16:14,320
Speaker 1: not an antidepressant, but it's an anti sadness pill, you know,

1334
01:16:14,520 --> 01:16:18,360
Speaker 1: and that's not conceptually incoherent. I mean, we might one

1335
01:16:18,400 --> 01:16:20,680
Speaker 1: day have that pill. You know, it might be a

1336
01:16:20,680 --> 01:16:23,280
Speaker 1: pill that you would compassionately want to Like, there are

1337
01:16:23,280 --> 01:16:29,759
Speaker 1: people who who are suffering some just intractable, unendurable bereavement

1338
01:16:29,880 --> 01:16:31,639
Speaker 1: that just never lifts and they're just you know, they

1339
01:16:31,680 --> 01:16:34,920
Speaker 1: can't get their life back together. And there you'd want

1340
01:16:34,960 --> 01:16:36,800
Speaker 1: to give that pill to that person. But the question

1341
01:16:36,880 --> 01:16:38,920
Speaker 1: is how soon would you want to take that pill?

1342
01:16:38,960 --> 01:16:41,639
Speaker 1: And would you want to take that pill fifteen minutes

1343
01:16:41,680 --> 01:16:45,040
Speaker 1: after your closest connection in this life died? You know,

1344
01:16:45,040 --> 01:16:47,800
Speaker 1: it's like that's the body is still warm, and would

1345
01:16:47,800 --> 01:16:50,600
Speaker 1: you be popping this pill? I don't think so. I

1346
01:16:50,600 --> 01:16:53,240
Speaker 1: think I mean this is something like, how care free

1347
01:16:54,320 --> 01:16:57,800
Speaker 1: do you want to feel in the in the immediate

1348
01:16:57,840 --> 01:17:01,240
Speaker 1: aftermath of a person you love dying? You know you

1349
01:17:01,320 --> 01:17:03,599
Speaker 1: want it, You want the gravity of that to land.

1350
01:17:03,920 --> 01:17:06,479
Speaker 1: You know, you want to feel you want to feel

1351
01:17:06,520 --> 01:17:12,640
Speaker 1: that loss because that's in some sense the only appropriate

1352
01:17:14,080 --> 01:17:18,439
Speaker 1: register of what they meant to you, you know, and

1353
01:17:18,479 --> 01:17:20,800
Speaker 1: just and the life you live together, right, you know

1354
01:17:20,840 --> 01:17:22,679
Speaker 1: you like so if you if you pop the grief

1355
01:17:22,680 --> 01:17:25,320
Speaker 1: bill and then you're just saying, Okay, what's on Netflix, right,

1356
01:17:25,360 --> 01:17:28,479
Speaker 1: that would be a kind of a desecration of all

1357
01:17:28,520 --> 01:17:30,479
Speaker 1: that you would share it with this person. So, I

1358
01:17:30,479 --> 01:17:33,200
Speaker 1: don't know if it's a very interesting question where you

1359
01:17:33,240 --> 01:17:37,640
Speaker 1: would because I think ultimately you would want to be

1360
01:17:37,640 --> 01:17:39,960
Speaker 1: able to give that pill to someone whose life had

1361
01:17:40,000 --> 01:17:43,360
Speaker 1: become completely derailed by grief. But just where it? Just

1362
01:17:43,400 --> 01:17:46,160
Speaker 1: where's the line? I mean, that's that's an interesting question.

1363
01:17:46,479 --> 01:17:50,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great answer. Yeah, all right. So we

1364
01:17:50,360 --> 01:17:53,800
Speaker 2: end every episode with a final five which have to

1365
01:17:53,800 --> 01:17:57,320
Speaker 2: be answered in one sentence maximum each each want it's

1366
01:17:57,320 --> 01:17:59,000
Speaker 2: a challenge for me, this is a challenge for you,

1367
01:17:59,120 --> 01:18:01,280
Speaker 2: for sure. I'm excited to hear some of your answers.

1368
01:18:01,439 --> 01:18:03,360
Speaker 2: The fifth question, which we've asked to every guest on

1369
01:18:03,400 --> 01:18:06,640
Speaker 2: the show is perfectly designed for you after today's conversation.

1370
01:18:06,800 --> 01:18:09,600
Speaker 2: So and I just want to say on camera. We

1371
01:18:09,720 --> 01:18:12,800
Speaker 2: just cut because the cameras were getting reset because we've

1372
01:18:12,800 --> 01:18:14,479
Speaker 2: been taping for so long. But I was just saying

1373
01:18:14,520 --> 01:18:16,720
Speaker 2: that the conversation I've had with Sam today has been

1374
01:18:16,760 --> 01:18:19,160
Speaker 2: so different from the one I thought i'd have with

1375
01:18:19,240 --> 01:18:21,400
Speaker 2: him after reading his book, and that to me is

1376
01:18:21,400 --> 01:18:23,639
Speaker 2: the sign of a good conversation because it was true

1377
01:18:24,160 --> 01:18:28,839
Speaker 2: curiosity and mystery and creation in the moment and presence

1378
01:18:28,880 --> 01:18:31,120
Speaker 2: in the moment from both of us. So nice, I

1379
01:18:31,160 --> 01:18:34,560
Speaker 2: love that question Number one, what is the best meditation

1380
01:18:34,680 --> 01:18:36,799
Speaker 2: advice you've ever heard, received or given?

1381
01:18:37,479 --> 01:18:39,360
Speaker 1: You are not this next thought.

1382
01:18:40,880 --> 01:18:43,559
Speaker 2: Second question is what is the worst meditation advice you've

1383
01:18:43,560 --> 01:18:44,920
Speaker 2: ever heard, received or given?

1384
01:18:45,760 --> 01:18:48,840
Speaker 1: Well, I practiced for a long time in a very

1385
01:18:48,880 --> 01:18:51,800
Speaker 1: goal oriented tradition where it was just you know, I

1386
01:18:51,960 --> 01:18:57,799
Speaker 1: spent months and months on retreats with Burmese meditation masters

1387
01:18:57,800 --> 01:19:03,639
Speaker 1: who had a very dualistic, goal oriented seeking kind of model.

1388
01:19:03,760 --> 01:19:05,760
Speaker 1: It's it's not to say you couldn't benefit from that,

1389
01:19:05,840 --> 01:19:08,840
Speaker 1: but I will get you a sentence out of this.

1390
01:19:08,960 --> 01:19:13,280
Speaker 1: But I set up to the sentence that the primary

1391
01:19:13,520 --> 01:19:18,040
Speaker 1: analogy being used was you're going to rubbing two sticks

1392
01:19:18,080 --> 01:19:21,720
Speaker 1: to get fired, and the moment you stop, they cool off. Right,

1393
01:19:21,760 --> 01:19:24,280
Speaker 1: So it's just it's so whatever the sentence is, it's

1394
01:19:24,320 --> 01:19:27,240
Speaker 1: just like meditation is like rubbing two sticks together to

1395
01:19:27,240 --> 01:19:30,120
Speaker 1: get fired. You have to continuously do it, and the

1396
01:19:30,120 --> 01:19:33,080
Speaker 1: moment you break, you're back to zero. Right, You've made

1397
01:19:33,080 --> 01:19:33,639
Speaker 1: no product.

1398
01:19:34,360 --> 01:19:39,120
Speaker 2: Wow, that's yeah, that's a painful. That's really painful. Yes, okay.

1399
01:19:39,240 --> 01:19:42,200
Speaker 2: Question number three, what's the biggest lesson you learned in

1400
01:19:42,240 --> 01:19:43,400
Speaker 2: the last twelve months.

1401
01:19:44,000 --> 01:19:47,360
Speaker 1: Honestly, it's humbling to to admit it, but it really

1402
01:19:47,479 --> 01:19:50,800
Speaker 1: was getting off twitter just we're just with the recognition

1403
01:19:51,880 --> 01:19:57,920
Speaker 1: that the whole super set of preoccupation here was not

1404
01:19:58,120 --> 01:20:01,920
Speaker 1: worth it and not healthy, even the good stuff. I mean,

1405
01:20:02,080 --> 01:20:07,120
Speaker 1: just every side of this diabolical jewel was sort of

1406
01:20:07,240 --> 01:20:09,920
Speaker 1: ugly when I really looked at it. And yeah, so

1407
01:20:09,960 --> 01:20:10,920
Speaker 1: that was that was it.

1408
01:20:11,360 --> 01:20:16,759
Speaker 2: Great. Question numberfore, what's something you think people value highly

1409
01:20:17,439 --> 01:20:19,479
Speaker 2: but you don't value anymore?

1410
01:20:20,160 --> 01:20:24,200
Speaker 1: Identity in what sense? I mean really, in every sense.

1411
01:20:24,200 --> 01:20:29,840
Speaker 1: I mean just just tribal identity. You know, your religious identity,

1412
01:20:29,880 --> 01:20:32,960
Speaker 1: your ethnic identity, your I don't even think you need

1413
01:20:33,000 --> 01:20:35,639
Speaker 1: to identify with the face you see in the mirror

1414
01:20:35,640 --> 01:20:37,519
Speaker 1: each day, right, So I say, how much less should

1415
01:20:37,560 --> 01:20:40,200
Speaker 1: you have to identify with people who just superficially resemble

1416
01:20:40,240 --> 01:20:44,560
Speaker 1: you in any way? So, but even just the identity

1417
01:20:44,600 --> 01:20:50,479
Speaker 1: of feeling like like in my career or in any

1418
01:20:50,520 --> 01:20:53,240
Speaker 1: mode in which I'm showing up in the world, it's

1419
01:20:53,360 --> 01:20:57,640
Speaker 1: less like who I feel I am while doing that

1420
01:20:58,600 --> 01:21:01,240
Speaker 1: is less and less substanti like. I don't. I don't really,

1421
01:21:01,280 --> 01:21:03,599
Speaker 1: it's not really graspable, you know, And so I don't

1422
01:21:04,720 --> 01:21:06,040
Speaker 1: like I you know, I spend a lot of time

1423
01:21:06,120 --> 01:21:11,960
Speaker 1: teaching meditation in on waking Up. But because it's because

1424
01:21:11,960 --> 01:21:15,200
Speaker 1: of the technology, because it's an app, I don't actually

1425
01:21:15,240 --> 01:21:16,519
Speaker 1: feel like a meditation teacher.

1426
01:21:16,720 --> 01:21:16,840
Speaker 2: You know.

1427
01:21:16,840 --> 01:21:18,800
Speaker 1: I'm not showing up in the world as a meditation teacher.

1428
01:21:18,840 --> 01:21:20,360
Speaker 1: I don't have there's no place you can go sit

1429
01:21:21,160 --> 01:21:24,240
Speaker 1: with me in a in a hall, you know. So

1430
01:21:24,320 --> 01:21:27,679
Speaker 1: I don't have students in the ordinary meditation teacher way.

1431
01:21:28,360 --> 01:21:31,120
Speaker 1: But the reality is that through waking up. You know,

1432
01:21:31,320 --> 01:21:33,200
Speaker 1: it seems strange to say it, but I could be

1433
01:21:33,280 --> 01:21:39,120
Speaker 1: teaching nondual mindfulness to more people than anyone on earth

1434
01:21:39,120 --> 01:21:40,800
Speaker 1: at this moment. I mean, it's just it's really quite

1435
01:21:40,960 --> 01:21:43,479
Speaker 1: crazy how it has scaled. But yet I don't I

1436
01:21:43,520 --> 01:21:46,000
Speaker 1: never think of myself in that role. So like the

1437
01:21:46,720 --> 01:21:49,120
Speaker 1: role based identity. You know, I'm a writer, I have

1438
01:21:49,200 --> 01:21:50,640
Speaker 1: got a bunch of books, but I you know, I'm not.

1439
01:21:50,680 --> 01:21:53,400
Speaker 1: I don't really think of myself as a writer as

1440
01:21:53,479 --> 01:21:55,400
Speaker 1: much as I used to. I mean, there's just no

1441
01:21:55,600 --> 01:22:00,200
Speaker 1: I just don't feel like there's no anything that I

1442
01:22:00,240 --> 01:22:02,320
Speaker 1: would any way in which I would label what I'm doing.

1443
01:22:02,960 --> 01:22:06,679
Speaker 1: The label really does feel like it's it's it's barely

1444
01:22:06,720 --> 01:22:09,720
Speaker 1: adhesive to the to the project. You know, it's just

1445
01:22:09,760 --> 01:22:14,600
Speaker 1: it's it's it's there just for the for the the

1446
01:22:14,720 --> 01:22:17,280
Speaker 1: utility of just summarizing, you know, just like what do

1447
01:22:17,320 --> 01:22:19,160
Speaker 1: you put on this form? You know, what's what's your

1448
01:22:19,320 --> 01:22:21,400
Speaker 1: what's your occupation? Right, But it's like it's just doesn't

1449
01:22:21,439 --> 01:22:23,920
Speaker 1: get at what I'm actually doing, and it doesn't get

1450
01:22:23,920 --> 01:22:26,680
Speaker 1: how I see myself. So the identity is something that

1451
01:22:26,720 --> 01:22:30,519
Speaker 1: I mean people think, yes, I'm sure there's some stage

1452
01:22:30,520 --> 01:22:32,479
Speaker 1: in life where you want a healthy identity, like I've

1453
01:22:32,520 --> 01:22:35,439
Speaker 1: I've got two daughters. I want them to have healthy identities.

1454
01:22:35,439 --> 01:22:41,720
Speaker 1: I want them to have healthy egos. But Ultimately, it's

1455
01:22:41,800 --> 01:22:45,600
Speaker 1: not about being someone in any kind of sense. That

1456
01:22:45,680 --> 01:22:49,000
Speaker 1: feels it's like identity feels like a fist, you know,

1457
01:22:49,040 --> 01:22:51,760
Speaker 1: and I really want an open hand in life. And

1458
01:22:51,800 --> 01:22:53,439
Speaker 1: that's and so it's not that it's not that I

1459
01:22:53,479 --> 01:22:55,600
Speaker 1: never make a fist, but it's like you want to

1460
01:22:55,640 --> 01:22:58,479
Speaker 1: you want to relax that as soon as you notice it.

1461
01:22:58,479 --> 01:23:01,120
Speaker 2: It's it's really interesting from a personal practice point of

1462
01:23:01,200 --> 01:23:04,960
Speaker 2: view and from a human scale practice point of view,

1463
01:23:05,000 --> 01:23:08,960
Speaker 2: because what you just said is the perfection of the

1464
01:23:09,000 --> 01:23:10,880
Speaker 2: idea almost the way I see it is like with

1465
01:23:10,920 --> 01:23:12,519
Speaker 2: your daughters. I don't know how old they are, but

1466
01:23:13,200 --> 01:23:14,320
Speaker 2: you know, I'm guessing.

1467
01:23:14,040 --> 01:23:15,519
Speaker 1: That not nine and fourteen.

1468
01:23:15,560 --> 01:23:17,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, And so it's like you want them to

1469
01:23:17,920 --> 01:23:20,160
Speaker 2: have a healthy sense of identity because at that stage

1470
01:23:20,200 --> 01:23:24,120
Speaker 2: of life, that's such an important thing. And it's almost

1471
01:23:24,160 --> 01:23:26,160
Speaker 2: like the evolution of the idea is like, well, there's

1472
01:23:26,160 --> 01:23:28,800
Speaker 2: a stage of life where that isn't you know, the

1473
01:23:29,120 --> 01:23:32,160
Speaker 2: directive thing? And I think that's what's so hard, because

1474
01:23:32,200 --> 01:23:36,000
Speaker 2: you find everyone who's listening, watching experiencing life. It's such

1475
01:23:36,120 --> 01:23:39,680
Speaker 2: different levels and it's almost like someone being able. It's

1476
01:23:39,680 --> 01:23:41,519
Speaker 2: the same as what I was saying earlier with the

1477
01:23:41,600 --> 01:23:44,840
Speaker 2: identity from a systematic point of view. It's like some

1478
01:23:44,880 --> 01:23:48,040
Speaker 2: people that's where they are, that that's just where they are,

1479
01:23:48,080 --> 01:23:51,240
Speaker 2: where their identity is what gives their life meaning, and

1480
01:23:51,280 --> 01:23:53,519
Speaker 2: then you see as someone So yeah, it's just it's

1481
01:23:53,520 --> 01:23:57,040
Speaker 2: fascinating to me how at different stages of life identity

1482
01:23:57,040 --> 01:23:58,000
Speaker 2: can mean different things.

1483
01:23:58,040 --> 01:24:02,320
Speaker 1: And it's really the emotion of pride really crystallizes it

1484
01:24:02,360 --> 01:24:05,680
Speaker 1: for me. It's like for my daughter is it's it's

1485
01:24:05,760 --> 01:24:08,120
Speaker 1: totally appropriate for them to feel pride. I want them

1486
01:24:08,120 --> 01:24:11,799
Speaker 1: to feel pride in the right moments, and I feel proud.

1487
01:24:12,120 --> 01:24:15,479
Speaker 1: It's some it's not quite the right framing, but something

1488
01:24:15,560 --> 01:24:18,720
Speaker 1: like pride for them. It's I want to play that

1489
01:24:18,720 --> 01:24:21,880
Speaker 1: that healthy pride game with them. But I don't feel

1490
01:24:21,880 --> 01:24:24,840
Speaker 1: pride in my life at all. Like pride just does

1491
01:24:24,880 --> 01:24:27,000
Speaker 1: not maple. I just have the right shape to map

1492
01:24:27,040 --> 01:24:29,160
Speaker 1: on to my sense of what it is to be

1493
01:24:29,200 --> 01:24:32,280
Speaker 1: a person. Really, you know, it's like, I'm not responsible

1494
01:24:32,320 --> 01:24:34,479
Speaker 1: for any of my gifts, such as they are. It's

1495
01:24:34,520 --> 01:24:37,800
Speaker 1: like I just again it comes back to luck in

1496
01:24:37,840 --> 01:24:39,720
Speaker 1: so many ways and what you do with that luck.

1497
01:24:39,760 --> 01:24:41,960
Speaker 1: But again, even the doing with the luck is more

1498
01:24:42,680 --> 01:24:45,920
Speaker 1: more good luck, you know. So I just feel immensely

1499
01:24:46,040 --> 01:24:49,679
Speaker 1: grateful for everything that has gone well in my life.

1500
01:24:49,800 --> 01:24:54,440
Speaker 1: And I just mean, it's just the gratitude is overwhelmingly

1501
01:24:55,479 --> 01:24:58,559
Speaker 1: my primary positive emotion now. It's just so much to

1502
01:24:58,600 --> 01:25:02,240
Speaker 1: be grateful for. And pride just pride just does not fit.

1503
01:25:02,280 --> 01:25:04,960
Speaker 1: It's a puzzle piece that you maybe once fit and

1504
01:25:05,000 --> 01:25:10,080
Speaker 1: maybe and you know, granted, if you're if you're a kid, yes, yeah,

1505
01:25:10,160 --> 01:25:12,680
Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's it's again, it's it's a it's

1506
01:25:12,720 --> 01:25:15,800
Speaker 1: a totally appropriate game at a certain stage of life,

1507
01:25:15,800 --> 01:25:18,000
Speaker 1: but later on it's it's a game you just really

1508
01:25:18,000 --> 01:25:18,719
Speaker 1: you have to outgrow.

1509
01:25:19,040 --> 01:25:21,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can. I can relate to that completely and fully.

1510
01:25:22,040 --> 01:25:25,080
Speaker 2: Fully loved that. I loved hearing that fifth and final question,

1511
01:25:25,760 --> 01:25:27,479
Speaker 2: If you could create one law, this is the one

1512
01:25:27,520 --> 01:25:29,519
Speaker 2: that I said. We've asked every guest, but I feel

1513
01:25:29,520 --> 01:25:31,920
Speaker 2: like it's perfectly designed for you. If you could create

1514
01:25:31,960 --> 01:25:34,320
Speaker 2: one law that everyone in the world had to follow,

1515
01:25:34,360 --> 01:25:34,960
Speaker 2: what would it be.

1516
01:25:35,720 --> 01:25:40,559
Speaker 1: The price we pay for for dishonesty at every level

1517
01:25:40,600 --> 01:25:45,439
Speaker 1: of society is so enormous, and there's so little price

1518
01:25:46,200 --> 01:25:48,479
Speaker 1: paid for a lying. I mean that like when when

1519
01:25:48,560 --> 01:25:52,320
Speaker 1: when a when a politician is found to be lying right,

1520
01:25:52,479 --> 01:25:55,880
Speaker 1: or you know, the person who has immense responsibility is

1521
01:25:55,880 --> 01:25:59,280
Speaker 1: found to be lying. You know, but for like specific

1522
01:25:59,360 --> 01:26:02,800
Speaker 1: cases of raw that are actionable, like like like lying

1523
01:26:02,960 --> 01:26:05,680
Speaker 1: is just under the purview of free speech. Really, it's

1524
01:26:05,720 --> 01:26:09,479
Speaker 1: like it's not illegal to lie, right, I think, I mean,

1525
01:26:09,640 --> 01:26:11,240
Speaker 1: it's not so much a law. I think if we

1526
01:26:11,320 --> 01:26:15,120
Speaker 1: had lie detection technology that that was we could rely on,

1527
01:26:15,160 --> 01:26:18,679
Speaker 1: which is the various interesting reasons why we we don't

1528
01:26:18,760 --> 01:26:20,920
Speaker 1: have that and may never have that. But if we

1529
01:26:20,960 --> 01:26:24,720
Speaker 1: had that, if lie detection technology was like you know,

1530
01:26:24,800 --> 01:26:27,120
Speaker 1: DNA analysis in a court of law, like you just

1531
01:26:27,160 --> 01:26:29,479
Speaker 1: put someone on the witness stand and you could tell

1532
01:26:29,520 --> 01:26:31,960
Speaker 1: whether they were lying, right, I think that would be

1533
01:26:32,080 --> 01:26:35,200
Speaker 1: the overnight that would be the biggest ethical change we

1534
01:26:35,479 --> 01:26:39,200
Speaker 1: could ever imagine in society. So I think so anything

1535
01:26:39,240 --> 01:26:44,280
Speaker 1: that that brought the appropriate level of approbrium to lie, right,

1536
01:26:44,600 --> 01:26:51,200
Speaker 1: especially lying when it matters, that would be some version

1537
01:26:51,240 --> 01:26:54,400
Speaker 1: of that law, the the you can't lie when it

1538
01:26:54,479 --> 01:26:57,640
Speaker 1: matters law, whatever that is, you know. So, but I

1539
01:26:57,680 --> 01:26:59,760
Speaker 1: do think it would be a technological solution if we

1540
01:26:59,840 --> 01:27:02,160
Speaker 1: just more and more, if people knew that they were

1541
01:27:02,200 --> 01:27:04,920
Speaker 1: in a situation where they actually can't get away with

1542
01:27:05,000 --> 01:27:08,120
Speaker 1: lying right, because the technology is such or the information

1543
01:27:08,160 --> 01:27:11,839
Speaker 1: space is such that it's but the the the added

1544
01:27:12,000 --> 01:27:16,840
Speaker 1: piece is that the norm, the norm violation needs to

1545
01:27:16,880 --> 01:27:20,840
Speaker 1: be just more urgent, you know, because people, most people

1546
01:27:20,880 --> 01:27:23,760
Speaker 1: are walking around with the sense everybody lies, all politicians lie.

1547
01:27:23,800 --> 01:27:25,640
Speaker 1: There's like a normal lie. What do you expect? You

1548
01:27:25,680 --> 01:27:28,800
Speaker 1: know it's and so it's not. But the just the

1549
01:27:28,840 --> 01:27:31,800
Speaker 1: amount of harm and the amount of good that would

1550
01:27:31,840 --> 01:27:35,519
Speaker 1: be accomplished if you just knew people were being honest

1551
01:27:35,680 --> 01:27:37,839
Speaker 1: and you know, you're not going to be unpleasantly surprised

1552
01:27:37,840 --> 01:27:41,679
Speaker 1: by Yeah, so there's a lot of growth, cultural growth

1553
01:27:41,680 --> 01:27:42,240
Speaker 1: in that direction.

1554
01:27:42,320 --> 01:27:46,960
Speaker 2: But yeah, I hope you get involved in changing some

1555
01:27:47,040 --> 01:27:51,280
Speaker 2: systems from some of the stuff you've said today. I like,

1556
01:27:51,640 --> 01:27:55,320
Speaker 2: it would be great if you were influencing the influences.

1557
01:27:54,439 --> 01:27:58,439
Speaker 1: And well, we try with our humble podcasts. Yeah, that's

1558
01:27:58,439 --> 01:27:58,880
Speaker 1: what we do.

1559
01:27:59,080 --> 01:28:02,200
Speaker 2: Everyone has been listening watching. The podcast is called Making Sense.

1560
01:28:02,280 --> 01:28:05,320
Speaker 2: The app is called Waking Up. The book is also

1561
01:28:05,360 --> 01:28:08,559
Speaker 2: called by the same title. We'll put the links in

1562
01:28:08,640 --> 01:28:11,120
Speaker 2: the captions in the notes that you have access to

1563
01:28:11,520 --> 01:28:14,360
Speaker 2: all of Sam's work. Go make sure you grab a

1564
01:28:14,400 --> 01:28:17,320
Speaker 2: copy of the book, meditate with him on the Waking

1565
01:28:17,400 --> 01:28:20,840
Speaker 2: Up app and of course subscribe to the podcast Making

1566
01:28:20,960 --> 01:28:22,880
Speaker 2: Sense Sam. I hope this is the first of many

1567
01:28:22,880 --> 01:28:26,920
Speaker 2: conversations we get to have pleasure. Yeah, it's really really been.

1568
01:28:28,280 --> 01:28:30,400
Speaker 2: It's really been a phenomenal conversation. I hope we have

1569
01:28:30,400 --> 01:28:33,760
Speaker 2: many offline too, And anyone who's been listening and watching,

1570
01:28:33,880 --> 01:28:37,920
Speaker 2: make sure you grab your favorite segments, points, insights that

1571
01:28:37,960 --> 01:28:40,439
Speaker 2: really stood out to you, share them with a friends,

1572
01:28:40,479 --> 01:28:44,479
Speaker 2: start a conversation based on it. Tag me and Sam

1573
01:28:44,520 --> 01:28:46,000
Speaker 2: and let me know what really stood out to you,

1574
01:28:46,040 --> 01:28:48,360
Speaker 2: what resonated with you, maybe some things that are making

1575
01:28:48,360 --> 01:28:51,479
Speaker 2: you question or think differently. I'd love to see what

1576
01:28:51,680 --> 01:28:53,200
Speaker 2: came out of it for you. This has been a

1577
01:28:53,280 --> 01:28:56,360
Speaker 2: very different type of conversation on On Purpose, and I

1578
01:28:56,400 --> 01:28:58,680
Speaker 2: know you're can to appreciate it. But a big thank

1579
01:28:58,720 --> 01:29:00,920
Speaker 2: you to Sam again for his generous time. Big thank

1580
01:29:00,960 --> 01:29:02,479
Speaker 2: you to every single one of you have been listening

1581
01:29:02,520 --> 01:29:05,080
Speaker 2: and watching, and we'll see you again for another episode

1582
01:29:05,120 --> 01:29:08,200
Speaker 2: of On Purpose. Thank you guys. If you love this episode,

1583
01:29:08,479 --> 01:29:12,720
Speaker 2: you'll love my interview with doctor Gabor Matte on understanding

1584
01:29:12,760 --> 01:29:16,639
Speaker 2: your trauma and how to heal emotional wounds to start

1585
01:29:16,720 --> 01:29:18,080
Speaker 2: moving on from the past.