WEBVTT - Naveen Jain - Serial entrepreneur & CEO of Viome 0:00:07.200 --> 0:00:10.640 My feeling is the day you become an expert in 0:00:10.720 --> 0:00:15.200 any subject, any industry, you become useless or I would 0:00:15.200 --> 0:00:18.759 say incrementalist in that industry. That means the best you 0:00:18.840 --> 0:00:21.239 can be is ten percent better than anyone else in 0:00:21.280 --> 0:00:24.400 the industry, but you'll never be ten times better. To 0:00:24.440 --> 0:00:28.280 be ten times better, you have to challenge the foundation 0:00:28.480 --> 0:00:31.440 of everything that expert has taken for granted. 0:00:33.600 --> 0:00:36.600 Navin Jane has built his career by doing exactly that, 0:00:37.120 --> 0:00:42.279 challenging assumptions, rethinking industries, and refusing to settle for incremental progress. 0:00:42.640 --> 0:00:46.839 A serial entrepreneur and philanthropist, Navine's journey began with humble 0:00:46.880 --> 0:00:49.800 beginnings in India, led him to a career at Microsoft 0:00:49.920 --> 0:00:53.440 and ultimately to taking the leap to found Infospace and 0:00:53.520 --> 0:00:57.080 later Yome, an AI driven health platform focused on preventing 0:00:57.160 --> 0:01:00.240 chronic disease. Today we'll hear how he landed on his 0:01:00.280 --> 0:01:05.039 feet after leaving Infospace, why he believes entrepreneurs should hate risk, 0:01:05.400 --> 0:01:08.520 and how he measures success not just in wealth, but 0:01:08.640 --> 0:01:12.479 in impact. I'm furnished to Rabi and this is leading 0:01:12.520 --> 0:01:18.679 by example, executives making an impact. Navin Jane, Welcome to 0:01:18.760 --> 0:01:21.000 leading by example. It's a pleasure to have you on 0:01:21.040 --> 0:01:22.120 the show Varnished. 0:01:22.160 --> 0:01:24.280 What an honor and a pleasure to be speaking with you. 0:01:24.680 --> 0:01:27.320 I have so many questions for you. I love to 0:01:27.360 --> 0:01:31.320 start at the beginning of beginnings, going back to before 0:01:31.680 --> 0:01:34.319 you stepped on us soil, when you were just a 0:01:34.400 --> 0:01:37.360 boy living in India. I was reading I think it 0:01:37.400 --> 0:01:40.920 was in Fortune you were talking about your father's influence 0:01:41.560 --> 0:01:45.720 on you. One big memory is how your father, who 0:01:45.840 --> 0:01:49.520 was a worker for the Indian government, he refused to 0:01:49.600 --> 0:01:53.200 take bribes, which I guess was an unusual thing, and 0:01:53.560 --> 0:01:56.360 as a result, your family moved around a lot and 0:01:56.560 --> 0:02:00.440 you attended schools that were not so great. So I 0:02:00.560 --> 0:02:02.680 just want to go to that moment in your life 0:02:02.720 --> 0:02:06.800 and understand what you were witnessing, how it was making 0:02:06.880 --> 0:02:10.160 sense to you, and the influence that your father had. 0:02:10.560 --> 0:02:12.840 I know that one of your mantras is choose service 0:02:12.919 --> 0:02:16.320 over money, and I wonder if it started at that memory. 0:02:16.360 --> 0:02:18.760 You know, It's really interesting is that when you are 0:02:18.919 --> 0:02:24.359 growing up, everyone believes that the things that you don't 0:02:24.400 --> 0:02:27.160 have is what you end up desiring. And if you 0:02:27.240 --> 0:02:29.680 don't have money, all you want in life is to 0:02:29.800 --> 0:02:32.440 just have more money, because you somehow think that's the 0:02:32.480 --> 0:02:36.560 most scarce thing you have. And what you realize is 0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:40.720 that once you let go of need of having somehow 0:02:40.760 --> 0:02:44.120 the money is what brings happiness, you start to find 0:02:44.200 --> 0:02:47.760 happiness in everything that's happening around you. And to me, 0:02:48.639 --> 0:02:52.720 having that family unit that was together, saw my mom 0:02:52.800 --> 0:02:57.240 working very very hard doing odds and ends job just 0:02:57.280 --> 0:03:00.519 to make sure we were fed, that was the best 0:03:00.520 --> 0:03:03.040 thing that could have happened to me is learning that 0:03:03.520 --> 0:03:06.760 nothing about money that's going to bring you happiness. It 0:03:06.880 --> 0:03:10.320 is the love of your parents, the love of your family, 0:03:10.840 --> 0:03:14.200 the joy you get in having the smallest things in 0:03:14.240 --> 0:03:18.200 life brings you that happiness and the things that you 0:03:18.280 --> 0:03:21.400 would have wondered that since my dad refused to take bride, 0:03:21.760 --> 0:03:23.480 and the way it works is that you know, he 0:03:23.560 --> 0:03:25.440 takes a bribe, he takes a piece of it, gives 0:03:25.440 --> 0:03:27.480 it to his boss, His boss takes his piece and 0:03:27.480 --> 0:03:30.480 gives it to his boss, and everyone gets fed from 0:03:30.520 --> 0:03:33.360 that bride. And if he does not take it, no 0:03:33.440 --> 0:03:35.200 one in the system is going to get it, and 0:03:35.240 --> 0:03:37.600 that means he has to go because no one above 0:03:37.640 --> 0:03:40.520 him is getting it right. And we moved every year 0:03:40.680 --> 0:03:43.880 year and a half, and looking back, I think I 0:03:43.880 --> 0:03:46.440 would have found that to be really disturbing because you 0:03:46.600 --> 0:03:49.600 never found some place you called home. But to me, 0:03:49.760 --> 0:03:52.000 that was the best thing that my dad could have 0:03:52.120 --> 0:03:55.360 possibly offered me, or not my dad by choice, but 0:03:55.400 --> 0:04:00.240 the universe actually offered me because I got so comfort 0:04:00.720 --> 0:04:04.760 being in a new place that means nothing ever rattled me. 0:04:05.280 --> 0:04:08.320 Having to make new friends, it became a common thing. 0:04:08.720 --> 0:04:11.760 Not knowing what's going on became a common thing. Not 0:04:11.920 --> 0:04:14.360 having a school to go to and simply sitting on 0:04:14.400 --> 0:04:17.200 the floor and some elderly person coming in and just 0:04:17.240 --> 0:04:19.480 wanting to teach you and learning from that. You know, 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:23.240 that means you can learn something from everyone. And today 0:04:23.279 --> 0:04:25.160 when I look back at my life and I say, 0:04:25.200 --> 0:04:28.920 you know, that's exactly what I have become that there 0:04:28.960 --> 0:04:30.760 is not a person I talk to where I say, 0:04:30.800 --> 0:04:33.520 my god, I can't learn anything from this person. Every 0:04:33.560 --> 0:04:35.920 person can teach you the smallest thing that you say, 0:04:36.000 --> 0:04:38.240 my god, I wish I knew that when I was Yeh. 0:04:39.480 --> 0:04:41.600 Did your parents reinforce this to you when you were 0:04:41.600 --> 0:04:43.840 a child. I can only imagine some kids sort have 0:04:43.880 --> 0:04:48.040 had a very different appreciation, a lack of appreciation right 0:04:48.160 --> 0:04:50.840 for that. But you saw it differently. Do you think 0:04:50.839 --> 0:04:52.800 that says more about who you are innately or I 0:04:53.279 --> 0:04:55.440 guess I'm really asking was it nature or nurture. 0:04:56.120 --> 0:04:58.760 I would believe it has to be a nurture because 0:04:58.839 --> 0:05:02.600 at the end of the day, parents have a tremendous 0:05:02.760 --> 0:05:08.760 influence on children, not by telling them what to do, 0:05:09.279 --> 0:05:12.960 but by showing them what to do. And it is 0:05:13.120 --> 0:05:17.880 about leading by example. So children don't do what you 0:05:18.040 --> 0:05:21.719 tell them to do. Children do what they see you do. 0:05:22.400 --> 0:05:26.200 And when I saw my dad willing to take hardships 0:05:26.279 --> 0:05:29.919 but not losing the integrity, and that is really what 0:05:30.040 --> 0:05:33.400 you learned that you're never going to compromise on the 0:05:33.520 --> 0:05:37.840 values you have, despite what you think is in the 0:05:37.920 --> 0:05:41.080 immediate gratification that's going to bring you. Because in a 0:05:41.200 --> 0:05:44.760 long term, my brother and my sister we look back 0:05:44.839 --> 0:05:48.280 and saying, all growing up in this family that has 0:05:48.480 --> 0:05:51.640 very little, and the society would have said this family 0:05:51.760 --> 0:05:55.000 must not amount too much. And here I look back 0:05:55.040 --> 0:05:59.279 and saying, my sister did her post doctorate in applied 0:05:59.320 --> 0:06:02.960 mathematics from Indiana, and my brother who is a double 0:06:03.040 --> 0:06:06.000 PhD in computer science and statistics, and I was the 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:09.080 least educated person in my family as an undergrad from 0:06:09.120 --> 0:06:12.600 my IT and MBA. And really at this point, not 0:06:12.760 --> 0:06:16.000 only the God has been kind to us when we 0:06:16.040 --> 0:06:19.640 came to the United States, really watching our three children 0:06:19.800 --> 0:06:23.400 growing up in an affluent family this time rather than 0:06:23.560 --> 0:06:28.040 poverty and still doing the same audacious. Thing that is 0:06:28.080 --> 0:06:31.159 really to me is something about nurturing rather than nature. 0:06:31.480 --> 0:06:35.400 Wow. Love that perspective. And so you arrive here in 0:06:35.440 --> 0:06:37.880 the States, and I understand this was during a time 0:06:37.880 --> 0:06:41.960 when there were a lot of immigrants moving here to 0:06:42.080 --> 0:06:46.720 pursue school, and many of them stayed. You included what 0:06:46.839 --> 0:06:50.080 was the goal when you came here? Initially for my parents, 0:06:50.080 --> 0:06:52.840 for example, it was just to get educated, and then 0:06:52.920 --> 0:06:54.719 the thought was we're going to go back to the 0:06:54.720 --> 0:06:57.240 Middle East, but they ended up staying. What were your 0:06:57.279 --> 0:06:59.440 intentions when you came to the US. 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:02.520 Actually I did not want to come to US, and 0:07:02.560 --> 0:07:05.359 I didn't really plan to come to US. I was 0:07:05.480 --> 0:07:09.840 just finishing up my MBA. In my MBA had nothing 0:07:09.920 --> 0:07:13.440 to do with anything that I ended up doing, and 0:07:13.520 --> 0:07:17.200 it was really in the personnel management and industrial relations, 0:07:17.200 --> 0:07:20.560 which is managing the labor. And there was this computer 0:07:20.640 --> 0:07:24.200 company called Burrows in those days, a very large mainframe 0:07:24.200 --> 0:07:27.280 company like IBM, they came to the campus and they 0:07:27.320 --> 0:07:30.960 were interviewing people for a programming job. And obviously I 0:07:31.000 --> 0:07:32.720 have never seen a computer in my life, so what 0:07:32.720 --> 0:07:33.920 am I going to do. I'm not going to apply 0:07:34.040 --> 0:07:36.600 for a job. And here I'm having a lunch with 0:07:36.640 --> 0:07:39.680 a bunch of my friends and one of the friends 0:07:39.760 --> 0:07:42.840 during lunch said they would do this aptitude test like 0:07:43.000 --> 0:07:46.160 sat before they even interview you. And my friend says, 0:07:46.440 --> 0:07:49.520 this is the hardest test he has ever taken. And 0:07:49.560 --> 0:07:51.680 I said, like, how how can this really be? And 0:07:51.720 --> 0:07:53.200 he said, have you taken it? So you don't get 0:07:53.240 --> 0:07:54.760 to talk to me unless you get to go take it. 0:07:54.800 --> 0:07:56.600 And I'm like, God, damn it, I'm going to go 0:07:56.640 --> 0:08:00.240 take their damn test. So I went there, took the test, 0:08:00.280 --> 0:08:03.560 and absolutely asteed. And next day I get a call 0:08:03.760 --> 0:08:05.600 from this company and say they want to interview me. 0:08:06.120 --> 0:08:08.640 And I say interview me for what? And he say 0:08:09.160 --> 0:08:13.160 for computer programming. I said, what's the computer? And he says, oh, 0:08:13.200 --> 0:08:16.520 you're playing with us because you obviously know everything about computers. 0:08:16.520 --> 0:08:18.880 And I say, I've never seen a computer in my life. 0:08:19.160 --> 0:08:22.200 And they honestly believe that I am so good that 0:08:22.280 --> 0:08:25.320 I'm just joking with them. They say, you must obviously 0:08:25.440 --> 0:08:27.680 know the difference between bit and a bite. I say, 0:08:27.680 --> 0:08:30.040 even a moron knows that bittich is small and a 0:08:30.080 --> 0:08:32.880 bite is big. And they think I know everything and 0:08:32.920 --> 0:08:36.040 I'm just saying that because I'm just trying to minimize 0:08:36.080 --> 0:08:38.280 what I know. They say, great, you know what, We're 0:08:38.280 --> 0:08:39.880 going to hire you. We're going to teach you everything 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:42.440 about computer and I said, great, I'm hired. 0:08:43.080 --> 0:08:44.280 So what is the lesson there? 0:08:44.600 --> 0:08:50.839 Honestly, the lesson really is be so confident in yourself. Well, 0:08:51.080 --> 0:08:53.600 I don't think I'm talking about faking it. I could 0:08:53.679 --> 0:08:56.800 give you a humble answer that you know, I'm really 0:08:56.840 --> 0:08:59.400 not that smart and in all that, but the truth 0:08:59.480 --> 0:09:01.560 really being too, I was pretty smart kid, i' mean 0:09:01.640 --> 0:09:04.680 on top of my class, right, And the fact really 0:09:04.840 --> 0:09:09.400 is having that confidence that you can do anything. And 0:09:09.520 --> 0:09:13.400 literally they brought me in New Jersey you probably would appreciate. 0:09:13.679 --> 0:09:16.360 I ended up in a very very small town near 0:09:16.440 --> 0:09:20.280 Flemington called french Town. I know it, tiny, tiny town. 0:09:20.360 --> 0:09:23.440 And in those days I'm talking about nineteen eighty two, 0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:27.360 and I don't believe they have ever seen anyone who 0:09:27.400 --> 0:09:31.160 was not white. And I ended up in this town 0:09:31.840 --> 0:09:35.280 and they have seen the first person who was non Caucasian, 0:09:35.320 --> 0:09:39.520 and they thought that some alien have landed. And I 0:09:39.640 --> 0:09:43.680 was that alien that they were fascinated by. And someday, 0:09:43.720 --> 0:09:46.760 when we have more tell the stories about you, talk 0:09:46.760 --> 0:09:50.720 about discrimination. I mean, it is a serious issue, at 0:09:50.840 --> 0:09:54.680 least in that time. And now I look back and saying, 0:09:54.720 --> 0:09:58.480 you know what it is now a reverse discrimination. If 0:09:58.520 --> 0:10:03.280 you happen to be a Indian immigrant, they automatically think 0:10:03.320 --> 0:10:07.160 you are smart. You know everything about math and science 0:10:07.200 --> 0:10:09.040 and computer you are a genius. 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:13.160 Wow wow wow. All right, so you started this first company, 0:10:13.720 --> 0:10:16.760 they teach you everything about computers, and you work for 0:10:16.880 --> 0:10:21.319 several tech startups, eventually moving up the ranks to Microsoft, 0:10:21.400 --> 0:10:23.920 and you worked pretty closely with Bill Gates. How close? 0:10:24.280 --> 0:10:27.840 Yes? So actually it's really an interesting story. We just 0:10:27.880 --> 0:10:30.760 got married in eighty eight and my wife suggested that 0:10:30.840 --> 0:10:35.480 we should visit Pacific Northwest, and at that time I thought, 0:10:35.559 --> 0:10:37.240 my god, you know it is going to be an 0:10:37.320 --> 0:10:40.160 expensive trip. What if I can just fax my resume 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:42.080 to Microsoft? They will of course call me for an 0:10:42.160 --> 0:10:44.439 interview and that might get me a fee trip. 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:45.360 That's a good hack. 0:10:46.760 --> 0:10:49.160 So fax my resume and they said we'll put you 0:10:49.240 --> 0:10:50.839 up for a week and you come enjoy the place 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:53.440 and if you like it, come interview. Anyway, ended up 0:10:53.440 --> 0:10:56.840 getting a job. It was very early days of Microsoft. 0:10:56.880 --> 0:11:00.000 I'm now I'm talking late eighties. Microsoft was a very 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:02.960 very small company in those days, and I was working 0:11:02.960 --> 0:11:05.800 on something called MS DOS and most people will now 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:07.720 look at me and it's like, what are you talking about? 0:11:08.360 --> 0:11:11.000 So anyway, so that were the early early days of Microsoft. 0:11:11.040 --> 0:11:15.000 Worked very very closely with Bill. But interesting thing really 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:19.160 is that from there on, as you start to look 0:11:19.200 --> 0:11:24.960 at now nineties, and I saw this new phenomena coming 0:11:25.040 --> 0:11:28.880 up that obviously the Microsoft was leading the desktop revolution, 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:32.600 a computer on every desk, and the Windows was taken off, 0:11:32.640 --> 0:11:35.680 and obviously the office is taken off, and this whole 0:11:35.760 --> 0:11:39.199 new idea of the Internet was coming along. And if 0:11:39.240 --> 0:11:42.080 you remember in the nineties, they were like five or 0:11:42.080 --> 0:11:45.040 six companies that were on the Internet. And I decided 0:11:45.080 --> 0:11:47.760 that it's time for me to go do something on 0:11:47.800 --> 0:11:50.520 my own. And now I look back, I wish I 0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:52.920 had not done that. I ended up doing an interview 0:11:52.920 --> 0:11:55.040 when I was leaving, and I told the trade pass 0:11:55.040 --> 0:11:56.920 that I'm leaving, and you said, why are you leaving? 0:11:57.400 --> 0:12:01.280 And I gave this. Really I would call this awful quote. 0:12:01.360 --> 0:12:04.320 They say, I'm tired of making billions for Bill Stanton 0:12:04.559 --> 0:12:06.040 had to make some for myself. 0:12:06.679 --> 0:12:09.640 So hot take here, I want your hot take on 0:12:09.760 --> 0:12:11.920 working with Bill Gates. He has a book out now. 0:12:11.960 --> 0:12:14.600 He's trying to be very transparent about his early days, 0:12:14.880 --> 0:12:17.480 and before we were recording, you even said that he 0:12:17.640 --> 0:12:21.400 was sort of that personality where he didn't know really 0:12:21.600 --> 0:12:24.080 when he was doing. He had a curiosity and he 0:12:24.120 --> 0:12:26.920 was obviously smart, but he didn't have all the answers 0:12:27.240 --> 0:12:30.160 working close to him though. What was a leadership style 0:12:30.200 --> 0:12:32.280 that you liked and you would emulate and one that 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:33.920 you would say, no, I'm going to leave that here. 0:12:34.440 --> 0:12:38.000 Bill was one of the few people I know who 0:12:38.080 --> 0:12:41.480 would in any meeting. You could prepare for a month 0:12:41.679 --> 0:12:45.520 for that presentation and you think you have everything answered 0:12:45.960 --> 0:12:48.760 and he will ask you a simple question and you 0:12:48.880 --> 0:12:51.600 look and it's like, oh, my god, didn't think about that, right. 0:12:51.760 --> 0:12:54.600 He just got to the root of the problem that 0:12:54.679 --> 0:12:57.720 you have not even thinking about yet. And that intellectual 0:12:57.760 --> 0:13:01.720 curiosity was something that I have really on every single 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:04.680 thing I do, I go back and understand what is 0:13:04.720 --> 0:13:08.000 it that people actually haven't thought about yet, because everything 0:13:08.040 --> 0:13:10.280 they're telling me they have obviously answered the question. But 0:13:10.400 --> 0:13:13.200 what is it they're not thinking about and asking those questions? 0:13:13.400 --> 0:13:15.800 Is really what you learned from him? And I would 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:21.280 say that Microsoft culture in those days was extremely aggressive culture. 0:13:21.360 --> 0:13:24.960 I mean Microsoft was a company where people prided that 0:13:25.120 --> 0:13:27.640 how rude they could have been to each other or 0:13:27.679 --> 0:13:32.000 any vendor. They took pride in tearing down people. And 0:13:32.160 --> 0:13:35.080 we were supposed to be a terrible partner. Nobody wanted 0:13:35.120 --> 0:13:38.520 to partner with Microsoft, right. That was true for Apple also. 0:13:38.640 --> 0:13:41.160 I mean if you read the Steve Jobs biography, and 0:13:41.200 --> 0:13:44.520 if you look at the autobiography of Bill, I really 0:13:44.600 --> 0:13:48.520 think you start to learn a lot of things. What 0:13:48.720 --> 0:13:50.840 drove Steve Jobs to be Steve? 0:13:51.160 --> 0:13:53.880 Yeah, that's a whole other quo. But I appreciate what 0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:57.000 you were saying about Drive. That's a great transition for 0:13:57.120 --> 0:13:59.559 us because I want to get into Navine's drive. You 0:13:59.600 --> 0:14:05.360 have built an empire across industries, infospace, Moon, Express, biome. 0:14:05.840 --> 0:14:09.760 It's rare to find an entrepreneur who's made such vast shifts. 0:14:09.800 --> 0:14:13.439 I've interviewed billionaires, I've interviewed top CEOs and entrepreneurs, and 0:14:13.480 --> 0:14:15.600 they don't always stay in their lanes, but they tend to. 0:14:15.840 --> 0:14:19.080 And you have definitely explored many frontiers. 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:24.080 Why my feeling is, the day you become an expert 0:14:24.200 --> 0:14:28.640 in any subject, any industry, you become useless or I 0:14:28.680 --> 0:14:32.320 would say incrementalists in that industry. That means the best 0:14:32.400 --> 0:14:34.880 you can be is ten percent better than anyone else 0:14:34.920 --> 0:14:37.720 in the industry, but you'll never be ten times better. 0:14:38.000 --> 0:14:41.360 To be ten times better, you have to challenge the 0:14:41.400 --> 0:14:45.760 foundation of everything that expert has taken for granted. And 0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:50.360 that's the fundamental problem is non experts come along challenge 0:14:50.400 --> 0:14:54.280 everything that you have taken it for granted, completely, rethink 0:14:54.320 --> 0:14:57.440 and recreate and reinvent the industry, and the whole industry 0:14:57.480 --> 0:15:01.160 gets disrupted. And that, to me is the power of 0:15:01.640 --> 0:15:05.800 thinking like a naive person. So I've now done seven 0:15:05.840 --> 0:15:08.240 companies and no two companies have ever been in the 0:15:08.240 --> 0:15:12.160 same industry is because of that. And I really think 0:15:12.200 --> 0:15:17.360 this idea of counterintuitive thinking applies to not just if 0:15:17.360 --> 0:15:20.640 you talked about parenting, It applies to leadership. It applies 0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:24.080 to companies that you do that everything that people will 0:15:24.120 --> 0:15:26.640 tell you that before you do anything, you have to 0:15:26.680 --> 0:15:30.360 spend ten thousand hours becoming an expert. But the problem is, 0:15:30.360 --> 0:15:33.120 by the time you spend ten thousand hours, you have 0:15:33.320 --> 0:15:37.280 actually now become so useless because you're no longer thinking 0:15:37.520 --> 0:15:39.560 like someone who is from outside the industry. 0:15:40.520 --> 0:15:43.320 All right, let's double click on this. What are some 0:15:43.600 --> 0:15:50.000 other counterintuitive leadership skills mindsets that you really think are important? 0:15:50.640 --> 0:15:53.680 So I would say that number one thing is what 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:58.440 questions are you asking? The questions you ask are the 0:15:58.520 --> 0:16:00.880 problems you solve. And I think I'm going to give 0:16:00.920 --> 0:16:03.840 you a couple of examples because that really defines the 0:16:03.880 --> 0:16:07.960 fundamentally why people fail. So if you say, I want 0:16:08.000 --> 0:16:11.760 to solve world hunger problem, let's just start with something simple, right, 0:16:11.840 --> 0:16:14.240 I want to solve world hunger. And if you talk 0:16:14.280 --> 0:16:17.760 to any expert, they will tell you, oh, as we 0:16:17.880 --> 0:16:21.920 have the larger population, you have to increase the yield 0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:25.240 of the crop. A lot of the food gets wasted 0:16:25.360 --> 0:16:28.880 during transportation, so you have to actually change that we 0:16:29.040 --> 0:16:32.160 transport our food to reduce the wastage. And how we 0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:34.760 need to grow the food vertically, and how we need 0:16:34.800 --> 0:16:37.960 to use the aeroponic and the hydroponic to reduce the UNBLA. 0:16:38.440 --> 0:16:41.640 But no one will ever ask a question why do 0:16:41.720 --> 0:16:44.840 we eat food? Because when you ask a question why 0:16:44.840 --> 0:16:47.440 do we eat food? You realize the reason you need 0:16:47.480 --> 0:16:50.360 to eat food is two things. You need energy and 0:16:50.440 --> 0:16:53.000 you need nutrition. What are the different ways can you 0:16:53.040 --> 0:16:56.760 get energy? The plants get energy from photosynthesis, and there 0:16:56.800 --> 0:16:59.960 are bacteria that are growing up in the radioactive nuclear waste. 0:17:00.280 --> 0:17:02.520 Not only they have figured out how to protect their 0:17:02.640 --> 0:17:05.760 DNA against radiation, now they in fact use radiation as 0:17:05.760 --> 0:17:07.879 a source of energy. What if you can take a 0:17:07.920 --> 0:17:12.400 genetic material, use crisper in VVO to modify our own genes, 0:17:12.520 --> 0:17:13.879 and now you can say, honey, do you want to 0:17:13.880 --> 0:17:15.720 go out for radiation? Is there? Honey? Do you want 0:17:15.720 --> 0:17:16.760 to go out and have a pizza? 0:17:16.840 --> 0:17:16.959 Right? 0:17:17.280 --> 0:17:21.359 You fundamentally change the problem by asking a different question, 0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:24.560 and the solutions now that are available to you would 0:17:24.560 --> 0:17:27.760 have never been available to you unless you ask those questions. 0:17:27.920 --> 0:17:31.960 And that's really the beauty of a person, a leader 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:35.560 who is asking a different question than everyone else in 0:17:35.560 --> 0:17:36.960 the industry, is asking. 0:17:37.280 --> 0:17:40.200 How do you assemble a team that gets behind this. 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:43.639 This can be terrifying for especially younger workers. They're not 0:17:43.840 --> 0:17:46.800 used to thinking outside the box like you are. They 0:17:46.840 --> 0:17:49.600 may not be able to support you, how do you 0:17:49.640 --> 0:17:52.840 interview people in the way that you need to to 0:17:52.960 --> 0:17:54.600 get them to be on your team. 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:57.879 Well, actually, that is very interesting, is that your team 0:17:58.000 --> 0:18:00.600 really need to be team of experts. That's it is 0:18:00.680 --> 0:18:04.240 so counterintuitor. You have to be a non experts. You're 0:18:04.359 --> 0:18:07.640 challenging them, but you do need the set of experts 0:18:07.680 --> 0:18:10.240 who knows what to do, and your job is to 0:18:10.440 --> 0:18:13.400 challenge them. Why can't you do it this way? Tell 0:18:13.440 --> 0:18:17.120 me why this won't work? Okay, I'm constantly challenging our 0:18:17.200 --> 0:18:21.080 scientists not knowing anything. Why can't we just do it 0:18:21.119 --> 0:18:23.040 this way? And he looks at me, rolls his eyes 0:18:23.080 --> 0:18:25.680 and says, because that will never work. Can you explain 0:18:25.760 --> 0:18:28.600 to me why that won't work? And halfway through explaining 0:18:29.000 --> 0:18:30.440 and he said, I don't know. I have to try 0:18:30.440 --> 0:18:32.240 it and see and it comes back and says I 0:18:32.280 --> 0:18:35.320 can't believe it actually works. And that is the thing 0:18:35.440 --> 0:18:38.720 is that once you keep challenging them and keep asking them, 0:18:38.880 --> 0:18:42.680 because your job is to keep understanding what they're saying 0:18:42.680 --> 0:18:45.680 and ask more and more in depth questions until they say, 0:18:45.720 --> 0:18:47.600 you know what, let me try it. It just might work. 0:18:48.760 --> 0:18:50.800 So would you say that your leadership type is best 0:18:50.840 --> 0:18:52.000 described as visionary. 0:18:52.840 --> 0:18:57.720 You know, this visionary label is being so misused, right, 0:18:58.160 --> 0:19:00.960 and people think of visionary are the ones that are 0:19:01.040 --> 0:19:03.880 not grounded and they see these things that are out 0:19:03.920 --> 0:19:06.920 there that are just impossible and they have no concept 0:19:06.960 --> 0:19:09.760 of reality. That is not what I'm talking about. I'm 0:19:09.800 --> 0:19:13.680 talking about. It's still being grounded, but really looking at 0:19:13.680 --> 0:19:17.159 the problem not from outside the box, but in a 0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:20.000 completely different box. So you always have to think in 0:19:20.040 --> 0:19:22.560 a box, but you're bringing the knowledge of a different 0:19:22.560 --> 0:19:25.919 industry into another industry and that's what allows you to 0:19:26.080 --> 0:19:28.679 challenge the things. Right, So I'm not talking about the 0:19:28.760 --> 0:19:31.240 visionary is someone who says, you know, I think we 0:19:31.359 --> 0:19:34.600 can live on Mars and this is going to be 0:19:34.640 --> 0:19:36.359 no problem, and here's how you're going to do that. 0:19:36.720 --> 0:19:39.240 And my answer is, of course, we can live on 0:19:39.359 --> 0:19:41.960 Mars or Venus anywhere we want. And this is the 0:19:42.080 --> 0:19:45.080 second part of really you're asking me. The leadership style 0:19:45.160 --> 0:19:49.640 is that you take every complex problem. You don't focus 0:19:49.680 --> 0:19:53.879 on how you focus on what are the subset of 0:19:54.000 --> 0:19:56.919 problems you have to solve for this big problem to 0:19:56.960 --> 0:20:01.159 be solved. Basically, what I'm saying is take a complex problem, 0:20:01.240 --> 0:20:04.040 break it down into small problems and they all start 0:20:04.119 --> 0:20:06.760 to look very solvable. And then you see the what 0:20:06.960 --> 0:20:10.400 is the biggest problem that's unsolvable, and that is what 0:20:10.480 --> 0:20:13.359 you work on to make it solvable. And so when 0:20:13.480 --> 0:20:16.880 people say the entrepreneurs are risk takers, I can tell 0:20:16.920 --> 0:20:20.920 you that entrepreneurs hate taking risk. What is the first 0:20:20.920 --> 0:20:23.800 thing they do, what's the biggest risk? Let me minimize 0:20:23.800 --> 0:20:26.920 that risk. So they are the risk mitigation people. They're 0:20:26.920 --> 0:20:29.800 not risk takers. So anyone who tells you entrepreneurs take risks, 0:20:29.840 --> 0:20:30.640 they don't understand. 0:20:30.720 --> 0:20:35.640 Entrepren right right right. Success as a side effective service, 0:20:35.760 --> 0:20:38.679 it's more than a motto for Navine, it's a business model. 0:20:39.000 --> 0:20:41.680 When we come back, we dive into biome the moonshot 0:20:41.760 --> 0:20:45.439 company using AI and microbiome science to transform how we 0:20:45.600 --> 0:20:47.440 understand and prevent disease. 0:20:48.600 --> 0:20:52.840 Making money is simply a byproduct of doing things that 0:20:53.000 --> 0:20:56.760 improve people's life. So every day when you wake up, 0:20:56.920 --> 0:21:00.800 ask yourself, what should I do to make other people's 0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:01.320 life better. 0:21:02.000 --> 0:21:14.360 We'll be right back. So I want to walk through 0:21:14.359 --> 0:21:17.399 some of your companies and have you provide some takeaways 0:21:17.560 --> 0:21:21.639 big lessons learned in each of these milestones in your career. 0:21:21.680 --> 0:21:25.479 Infospace was one of your earliest successes, a tech giant 0:21:25.520 --> 0:21:27.600 in the dot com era. So I'm going to express 0:21:27.640 --> 0:21:29.639 you check from software to space exploration. 0:21:30.440 --> 0:21:35.639 Yes, And my belief still is the humanity's biggest problems 0:21:35.760 --> 0:21:40.080 are going to be a clean source of energy that 0:21:40.240 --> 0:21:44.439 is so abundant that it's almost free. And the only 0:21:44.560 --> 0:21:47.520 way to do that is a fusion energy. And now 0:21:47.520 --> 0:21:49.879 people say the fusion people have been talking about fusion 0:21:49.920 --> 0:21:53.000 for twenty years and it's always ten years away. I'm 0:21:53.000 --> 0:21:56.560 about to tell you another controversial thing. In the next 0:21:56.880 --> 0:21:59.480 one to two years, you're going to start to see 0:21:59.520 --> 0:22:02.760 a net fusion reactors. That means they're going to be 0:22:02.800 --> 0:22:06.360