Speaker 1: You may start the conversation now what you're the world?
Speaker 1: Hell those strains. I'm finally out the hold of everything.
Speaker 1: I'm doing great. They let me out yesterday. You know,
Speaker 1: it was the craziest thing. And boy, how the incident happened.
Speaker 1: Boy will be a separate podcast except but you would
Speaker 1: never believe. Maybe it's a good thing that went down
Speaker 1: because a lot of role bluffs got out on the
Speaker 1: way and a lot of rules got over pain. Wayne
Speaker 1: was out of the hole and I dearly calls with him.
Speaker 1: We're now back in full swing. They let me out
Speaker 1: yesterday at the institute. You know, they were weigh out
Speaker 1: of from listening on to said, yeah, it's going good
Speaker 1: and all that, you know, and they're telling me they've
Speaker 1: been following it all and and they explained it. And
Speaker 1: I sat down with the ward and all three of them,
Speaker 1: and I explained the whole project what we do sat
Speaker 1: gen way, he said, because I was played him. I said,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not trying to talk to me. I said,
Speaker 1: we're trying to do stuff to pace out on FLA.
Speaker 1: He said, well, the people you need to get in
Speaker 1: here and see like t I like, he said, do
Speaker 1: you get with me and the lawyer and I'll make
Speaker 1: it happen. They put me back in the same though
Speaker 1: back it was, but everything they did a complete reset.
Speaker 1: It had been a month since I last talked to Wayne.
Speaker 1: Before I could ask him any more questions, it was
Speaker 1: strictly business. He first set up a conference call with
Speaker 1: Dwayne and I was up. It was hold on one second.
Speaker 1: Wayne is on the other lines. Yeah, I've got Dwayne
Speaker 1: here in Pain, and I want to reiterate the saying
Speaker 1: they would Wayne on the line when we said to
Speaker 1: make sure that everybody's off in fact, same page. Nobody
Speaker 1: speaks for Wayne but Wayne. But I've never delegated chairman
Speaker 1: to him. All the contexts regarding the interurnacy and the
Speaker 1: legal affairs on that some Pain understands because that anything
Speaker 1: regarding to release some documents and uh anything like the
Speaker 1: case needs to come through Dwayne, because Dwayne is the
Speaker 1: most knowledge below in this case. And my guys playing
Speaker 1: to pay. You're the only person to Jim that could
Speaker 1: actually what we're him to the neighborhoods. We introduce it
Speaker 1: to the people he's gonna really need to see because
Speaker 1: they're not going to talk with him otherwise. To to
Speaker 1: beat the bushes and all see anything regarding my legal
Speaker 1: case to the way where I'm delegating the things pay
Speaker 1: regarding the legal case in contact, you go through Jimmy
Speaker 1: on all of that, make that happen. And then they
Speaker 1: regarding the documents or whatever, we have to go through
Speaker 1: Dwayne and says in the institute of people I trust
Speaker 1: to do that. The podcast was airing now and it
Speaker 1: seemed like it was making Wayne a little antsy. Next,
Speaker 1: he set up a conference call with his friend Jimmy.
Speaker 1: You're gonna have to get mcgimpy. He's gonna have to
Speaker 1: kick you meet all of these different people in all
Speaker 1: of that takes money. It is you understand what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: Like that, Dwayne is gonna do the same thing. When
Speaker 1: they're gonna be suspects. They're gonna meet people who eye
Speaker 1: witnesses to these things, but they have to take you
Speaker 1: into goods. Did you cant going I'm being funny pay
Speaker 1: but being a young white boy that places, you can't
Speaker 1: go about yourself with this. They're gonna happen to you. Yes,
Speaker 1: to you understanding what I'm saying is about He didn't
Speaker 1: have one minute lesson they're the eyes. Yes, to get
Speaker 1: it right, they'd be able to tell you know, it
Speaker 1: didn't happen. That's what, Yes, it did happen that way.
Speaker 1: Go by the would any of them say unless you
Speaker 1: hear that for me? They could give you input and all.
Speaker 1: But basically the ball, the ball stops will be paid.
Speaker 1: That's what I'm trying to say. Wayne would have never
Speaker 1: been cans if he was smarter. But the reason Wayne
Speaker 1: was convicted was because of what he did understand when
Speaker 1: he went off the way he went on in court. Now,
Speaker 1: part of that was it was very welcome is at
Speaker 1: Chinese fault. The first two days that Wayne was testifying,
Speaker 1: he was cool. They was asking him questions about being
Speaker 1: gay and all of this different stuff, and he was saying, look, man,
Speaker 1: I don't know nothing about this stuff. I didn't do this.
Speaker 1: I wasn't there. And he was cool, calm and collected
Speaker 1: the dispense. Attorney told him to fight back on the
Speaker 1: stand and that's what ended up really getting Wayne for
Speaker 1: getting the guilty verdict. Because people was like, oh, he
Speaker 1: is a doctor, Dico, Mr. The high person. It was
Speaker 1: they heard come to me and do that was a
Speaker 1: new story. Channel five ran he said Wayne Williams of tears,
Speaker 1: too cool and calm. They were responded to a dirt
Speaker 1: blue story. God, she told me Wayne, you need to
Speaker 1: be more forceable. You're looking too calm and cool and
Speaker 1: very threat quit if I didn't do that. And Atlanta,
Speaker 1: another party was discovering today a police task force headquarters.
Speaker 1: There are twenty seven faces on the wall. Twenty six murdered,
Speaker 1: wasn't missing. We do not know the person or persons
Speaker 1: that are responsible. Therefore, we do not have the morte
Speaker 1: from tender for TV and house to forks in Atlanta.
Speaker 1: Like a lot of other recent victims in Atlanta, Rogers
Speaker 1: apparently was asphyxiated. Atlanta unlikely to catch the killer unless
Speaker 1: he keeps on killing. This is a man of monster.
Speaker 1: The first thing I asked Wayne was about the trial
Speaker 1: when he lost his cool on the witness stand. Are
Speaker 1: you're going to find out all of what happened behind
Speaker 1: the scenes on this? Wayne doesn't agree with this, but
Speaker 1: this is my theory behind that. I really think that
Speaker 1: she was a plant. Dwayne is convinced that Wayne's attorney
Speaker 1: Mary Welcome with some sort of plant, but he had
Speaker 1: no evidence to back that theory. Even Wayne himself disagreed.
Speaker 1: I was the one that shows Mary. They didn't choose me.
Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying that was that was a
Speaker 1: s furnament And you know, because I had known him
Speaker 1: before another and be honest with you, I liked as
Speaker 1: a person, how strong over and that's I didn't live.
Speaker 1: He was fine. But that thing they do. But I mean,
Speaker 1: but they didn't bring it to mind, that annoy yet
Speaker 1: you would find she was fine, fine, It was fine, okay,
Speaker 1: apparently it was pretty fun and Mary welcome. I asked
Speaker 1: him about to blow up on the witness stand. This
Speaker 1: was I think my second day on the witness stand.
Speaker 1: And that was an article in the paper and in
Speaker 1: one of the TV stations has been said that I
Speaker 1: was being too cool and calm on the witness stand.
Speaker 1: So my attorneys saw that and they were saying that
Speaker 1: we need to do something we never they were a friend.
Speaker 1: That was Lewis and jury. I was cutting off, being
Speaker 1: too calm and colined, whatever the hick that means, and
Speaker 1: so fid they say, why we need you to be
Speaker 1: more possible and project yourself And I said, how do
Speaker 1: I do this? I mean, how do you try to
Speaker 1: present yourself in such a way because I don't think
Speaker 1: most people realize there isn't a story book that is
Speaker 1: the guy to how you respond to the witness that
Speaker 1: I don't care what we can tell you about what
Speaker 1: kind of perform as you move to. And I just responded,
Speaker 1: you know. And and I was so upset that I
Speaker 1: under sense. And that was a tragic misa me because
Speaker 1: people thought I exploded and I thought, no, I was
Speaker 1: well under control. I wasn't. I wasn't upset at district
Speaker 1: Attorney's over saying I was upset and my laudeous but
Speaker 1: put me in such a tragic situation. So that's what
Speaker 1: my frustration was over. So do you need to that
Speaker 1: played a big role in your conviction, no doubt, no doubt.
Speaker 1: We we talked for a lot of the journ of
Speaker 1: us afterwards, and and and I believe it or not,
Speaker 1: you could actually see the look on their face and
Speaker 1: I could sense it, you know, it was like they
Speaker 1: were like, oh my god, you know. And the dad
Speaker 1: I literally played myself by the stupidity into the teenage
Speaker 1: hands and and and it was it was the turning
Speaker 1: point in the trial. We felled out later on, you know,
Speaker 1: and talking to Wayne and looking at the evidence of
Speaker 1: this case. The entire case was built on fiber evidence.
Speaker 1: There were no fingerprints. I mean, there are allegations that
Speaker 1: some of Wayne's victims were at his house or in
Speaker 1: his car. You mean not one fingerprint was found in
Speaker 1: Wayne's house. He was that methodical that he cleaned all
Speaker 1: of these fingerprints. No neighbors ever said, hey, we saw
Speaker 1: these little boys going in the Wayne's house prison. Right.
Speaker 1: If Wayne was not on that bridge, the case would
Speaker 1: have been solved a different way, or it would still
Speaker 1: be unsolved. Take that bridge out of the equation, then
Speaker 1: what do you have? Vincent Hill reiterated several episodes back
Speaker 1: the overall importance of the bridge fiber evidence aside. If
Speaker 1: you take the bridge out of the equation, you don't
Speaker 1: have Wayne to begin with. Let's listen back to Wayne's
Speaker 1: version of the bridge. In Cent from one of my
Speaker 1: first calls with him. Alpha doors of Pitch is Alpa
Speaker 1: bed sized and one that was the first time I
Speaker 1: a Woyd talk to her about thirty four o'clock. That's
Speaker 1: what she said, you know, I to audition. I said, well,
Speaker 1: before the audition, he needs to interview. He tried to
Speaker 1: persuade the jury he really was out near a bridge
Speaker 1: that night looking for us Cheryl Johnson, who still remains
Speaker 1: a mystery to this trial. The state implied he fabricated
Speaker 1: the story, but Williams didn't much from it, claiming the
Speaker 1: woman simply gave him a wrong number and wrong address.
Speaker 1: And I was suspicious because the information she gave me
Speaker 1: there from evers Cansey. I said always she knows some people,
Speaker 1: knowing that the stunt calls some names, and she didn't
Speaker 1: know him for that kind of reason to plan to say, well,
Speaker 1: why don't you come body apartment were I'm staying with
Speaker 1: the thread. I think she did about seven futigue. I
Speaker 1: gotta be a working at an apartment. That's when she
Speaker 1: gave me the address. I mean you should by that
Speaker 1: address and TVA and I told people are to see
Speaker 1: you tomorrow morning. So as a matter of fact, if
Speaker 1: you look at my statements, I even tell the police
Speaker 1: said the on CONTs not when I took the address
Speaker 1: B because I felt it was a fake address. That's
Speaker 1: why I'm going out to shaking in the first place.
Speaker 1: I don't know if we should. That's her name. That
Speaker 1: was just the name that she did. We were doing
Speaker 1: a public ord a lot of people being fat names
Speaker 1: and sat address, so I say all the hoopla over
Speaker 1: Cheryl Johnson's name. You know, she was a plane call.
Speaker 1: The prosecution claimed that Wayne Williams had fabricated the entire
Speaker 1: story of Cheryl Johnson, saying she was fake, and now
Speaker 1: years later, Wayne agrees he was receiving hundreds of calls
Speaker 1: from music auditions and every so often he get a
Speaker 1: prank call, this being one of them. But regardless whether
Speaker 1: or not Ryl Johnson was a prank call, Wayne still
Speaker 1: claims that she called him. Well, at least somebody did.
Speaker 1: Over the course of a few weeks, I kept asking
Speaker 1: him about it, trying to pinpoint an exact timeline for everything,
Speaker 1: and according to Wayne, it starts like this. Do you
Speaker 1: originally did not call me? This was the key point.
Speaker 1: She called my mother, En left a note, you know,
Speaker 1: and my mother left her notes and I and this
Speaker 1: was one of the one if I was leading. Now,
Speaker 1: according to Wayne, Cheryl Johnson originally did not call him.
Speaker 1: She called the number on Wayne's flyer, which at the
Speaker 1: time was his house phone. He wasn't there, so his
Speaker 1: mother answered. This happened the day before the bridge incident.
Speaker 1: Anytimes about a call about an autist and I want
Speaker 1: their UH college to do it, she would just write
Speaker 1: a post it note you know about I talked to
Speaker 1: her the next day. My mom was the one who
Speaker 1: wrote the college. My mom wrote that. So Wayne's mom
Speaker 1: took the call from Cheryl Johnson the day before the
Speaker 1: bridge incident and wrote down her information on a slip
Speaker 1: of paper to give Dwayne. But what exactly did Wayne's
Speaker 1: mom write on the piece of paper? See this wrote comment,
Speaker 1: See your mom wrote down her number and then where'd
Speaker 1: you get the address from? For her pet On the
Speaker 1: note his mom left him was Sheryl Johnson's name, phone number,
Speaker 1: and her address. But Wayne did not make contact with
Speaker 1: her until the next day, around four pm on the
Speaker 1: same night of the bridge incident. According to Wayne, he
Speaker 1: didn't call her. She called his house phone again, but
Speaker 1: this time he was there to answer it. And and
Speaker 1: the next day, um, she called back about four o'clock.
Speaker 1: That's when I answered, you know, and I you know,
Speaker 1: I think if something was wrong with this woman, because
Speaker 1: how information didn't add up many it didn't add up.
Speaker 1: This is where things started to get a little confusing.
Speaker 1: So I'll do my best to break it down, Wayne says.
Speaker 1: The next day he didn't call Sheryl Johnson back, but
Speaker 1: she called his house phone again. Even though Wayne had
Speaker 1: the information to call back himself. With so much emphasis
Speaker 1: on the note from his mom, it seemed to add
Speaker 1: for him to point out. So I asked him about
Speaker 1: it again, just for clarity. No, no, no, she called
Speaker 1: me pain the phone. I don't know what number she
Speaker 1: called I called. I did. I did not call her back,
Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying. I talked to her the after
Speaker 1: the whole This woman claimed she was on the afternoon
Speaker 1: of the twenty one, about four o'clock. We talked about
Speaker 1: maybe five minutes, and when she missed the address, that's
Speaker 1: when you know she was talking. I gotta be at work.
Speaker 1: I said, well, we need to do not an audition
Speaker 1: like dam but an interview. I said, okay, we gotta
Speaker 1: do an interview before ne York digon. That's when she
Speaker 1: was done. She got to go back to MTIS and
Speaker 1: as when I started questioning her on maybe, I said,
Speaker 1: we ought to know songs, so she didn't know anybody.
Speaker 1: I mentioned the names that memp my radar went up
Speaker 1: at that point quite a few people in the music
Speaker 1: because she didn't know any straight So that was the
Speaker 1: only time on talk to this one, Will claimed to
Speaker 1: be shared. He talked to her around four pm that
Speaker 1: day for about five minutes, and he claimed he was
Speaker 1: already a little suspicious of her, but he agreed to
Speaker 1: meet her the next morning at her apartment anyway, and
Speaker 1: he said that that phone call was the first and
Speaker 1: last time he ever talked to Sheryl Johnson. So, your
Speaker 1: mom got the call from from Cheryl Johnson and then
Speaker 1: she wrote down the number and the address the back
Speaker 1: the information, right, okay. So did you have that note
Speaker 1: with you when you went driving out that night? Right? Right?
Speaker 1: That's that's the note, right, okay? So you did you
Speaker 1: take the note? I put my clock boy, I had
Speaker 1: about eight notes. In other words, we did, or if
Speaker 1: it hangs about calling you back, okay, I mean After
Speaker 1: confirming his appointment with Caryl Johnson the next morning, Wayne
Speaker 1: left his house later that night to go find her
Speaker 1: address because he was still convinced she was a fake caller.
Speaker 1: When he left his house, he brought with him the
Speaker 1: slip of paper his mother wrote down her phone number
Speaker 1: and address on. So the night of the incident. What
Speaker 1: time do you leave your house that night? I left
Speaker 1: about six starting to pick up Willie. His first stop
Speaker 1: that night was not to go find RYL. Johnson's address.
Speaker 1: He left around six thirty pm to go to a
Speaker 1: recording studio called Hot Lanta Records to drop off a
Speaker 1: bill for photo shoot services. We went straight to College
Speaker 1: Park meetn Wear Jackie Gado and the people of Hotlins
Speaker 1: bought down about the apple and a little the field
Speaker 1: for the photo services I had done. And we stayed
Speaker 1: there until about maybe about about an hour and uh
Speaker 1: I left about seven forty five and I had to run.
Speaker 1: That was forgett it was a Thursday because I had
Speaker 1: to rush back home to get the card of a
Speaker 1: dad because he had a kawana's clothes beat that night
Speaker 1: and he was late into the beat. But I had
Speaker 1: to drop Willie when I got backwards about eight, maybe
Speaker 1: a little after eight. I took Willie hon home first
Speaker 1: and put the card of my dad. So after you
Speaker 1: left the hot Landa Records, where did you go after that?
Speaker 1: I went home. It's now around eight pm and he's
Speaker 1: back at his house. You got home at eight, And
Speaker 1: then when you leave the house again about one about
Speaker 1: one that morning. Wayne says that he didn't leave the
Speaker 1: house again until one am that night. In the FBI
Speaker 1: case files, Wayne recounts his version of what happened that
Speaker 1: night from that point forward. This is how reads verbat
Speaker 1: him from the FBI documents. When Asta recount his activities
Speaker 1: on the night of Williams stated that he had stopped
Speaker 1: at the Santucci Lounge on West Peachtree to see Wilburt
Speaker 1: Jordan's Williams was attempting to pick up a tape recorder
Speaker 1: which he had loaned him. Williams recalled that he had
Speaker 1: talked to a female who he stated was in her
Speaker 1: forties and who was taking admission. The individual informed Williams
Speaker 1: that Jordan had been in but was not around at
Speaker 1: the time. Williams left a message with her regarding the
Speaker 1: tape recorder and then drove to Smyrder, Georgia an attempt
Speaker 1: to find Cheryl Johnson's address. I asked Wayne about this.
Speaker 1: You know, when I went out, my intention was to
Speaker 1: go to the club about one thirty that morning, but
Speaker 1: I did get to record my attention about silver before
Speaker 1: leer the club. Let me check on this address first,
Speaker 1: and that's when I made the trip up to Cobb
Speaker 1: County and all of his started transpired. But according to
Speaker 1: FBI documents, we made to stop first at a club
Speaker 1: called San Succi Lounge. Hey, I've got to staking I
Speaker 1: sent you my I double made statement to anybody I
Speaker 1: was going to the club. That was my attention to
Speaker 1: get in recorder. I did go to the club until
Speaker 1: the night of the seven. Wayne said he left his
Speaker 1: house with the intention of going to the club, but
Speaker 1: before he made it there, he decided to go check
Speaker 1: on Sheryl Johnson's address first. Contrary to the FBI reports,
Speaker 1: Wayne says he did not go to the club the
Speaker 1: night of the bridge incident, but instead he went the
Speaker 1: following night, the night of May. This whole thing was confusing,
Speaker 1: so a few days later I asked him about it again.
Speaker 1: When I did when I when I went on there
Speaker 1: that night, I went to that, said Susie. First, I
Speaker 1: understand what I'm saying, yep. I went. After I let home,
Speaker 1: I went to the dances at first, all right, I
Speaker 1: asked for uh, what would you all done? Get it
Speaker 1: in the stand, And that was my change. When I'll
Speaker 1: be back later. I left there and I went back
Speaker 1: on I was gonna go home, and I mayn't let
Speaker 1: me check the padress, so I went. I went up
Speaker 1: dead to buy an address. So this would have been
Speaker 1: about I'm cancering about two o'clock something like that. Wayne's
Speaker 1: version of the story had changed. Now he's saying he
Speaker 1: did go to the club that night, the same night
Speaker 1: he was pulled over on the bridge. So which one
Speaker 1: was it? I heard different accounts to right out of
Speaker 1: Wayne's mouth. But one thing that's really important. Being a
Speaker 1: liar doesn't make you a killer. People I all the
Speaker 1: time doesn't make you a killer. Wayne certainly told me
Speaker 1: two completely different stories about the stands Fugi club, So
Speaker 1: a few days later I asked him about it again.
Speaker 1: I'm confused about when you went to the club. One
Speaker 1: time you told me that you went to the club
Speaker 1: before the bridge, and then one time you told me
Speaker 1: that you went the next day. Okay, then let me
Speaker 1: correct that. Okay, So so we'll we'll understand over all
Speaker 1: the confusion over both the club was is that I
Speaker 1: went to the club first and for the bridge incident.
Speaker 1: I went to the club looking for the manager, who
Speaker 1: was a friend of mine. As a matter of fact
Speaker 1: he was a co producer with my music company. I
Speaker 1: did not go to see him again. The FBI and
Speaker 1: the statements driving to turn it around and claim that
Speaker 1: I went to the club in Salt, you know, Johan,
Speaker 1: I never said that. I never saw you know that night.
Speaker 1: What I did was the next night after the bridge incident,
Speaker 1: which would have been the nine of the twenty second,
Speaker 1: I went to the club and Sal you know, Joan,
Speaker 1: I was going out to pick up the cape recorder,
Speaker 1: and so I did see him at the next night.
Speaker 1: Another thing we have pointed out to me in our
Speaker 1: very first conversation about the bridge was something about his
Speaker 1: handwriting and the phone number for RYL. Johnson. You may
Speaker 1: remember this, and the only confusion in the statements was
Speaker 1: over the thing on the telephone number in Cheryl Johnston.
Speaker 1: The number was nine three four Seller Stember six six.
Speaker 1: You'll see when you get my riding. I'm going to
Speaker 1: see it was four three four of the seven six.
Speaker 1: My boys and my eyes looked alike because I closed
Speaker 1: loop them, so the fours and nines were mixed up
Speaker 1: because his handwriting looked the same on the note, No no, no, no,
Speaker 1: you hear everything. The number I wrote was four three
Speaker 1: four seven seven six six. Okay, they're looking at my
Speaker 1: notes in the car, and my rite thought it was
Speaker 1: a man. You understanding what I'm saying, my mines and
Speaker 1: my foes. Look, I can't tell the difference they assumed
Speaker 1: by my writing was nine three four, and that incorrect
Speaker 1: information lasting to this date. So right, that's where the
Speaker 1: confusing came in on it. So when that's why the
Speaker 1: note was stilling part of because the note would have
Speaker 1: shown it was four three fourth not nine three four.
Speaker 1: But Wayne told me earlier that his mother wrote the note,
Speaker 1: the same note he brought with him in the car.
Speaker 1: So your mom got the call from some Cheryl Johnson
Speaker 1: and then she wrote down the number and the address
Speaker 1: like the call back information, right, okay, So did you
Speaker 1: have that note with you when you went driving out
Speaker 1: that night? Right? Right? That's that's the note, right, Okay?
Speaker 1: So you did you take the note I put on
Speaker 1: my clipboard. I had about eight notes on this, So
Speaker 1: how was that possible? Wayne's theory about his handwriting would
Speaker 1: only make sense if he had written the note himself,
Speaker 1: But he didn't, he said his mom did. Unless there
Speaker 1: was a second note. I had an appointment book looked
Speaker 1: me ahead the time, and and to be honest, which
Speaker 1: I can't remember if I actually had the note from
Speaker 1: Cheryl Johnson whipped me that night, bought a notation on
Speaker 1: my appointment book. I'm pretty sure it was a notation
Speaker 1: on my appointment book that I showed the FBI agent.
Speaker 1: On the note that the FBI agent got, that was
Speaker 1: my mom's handwriting. Before Wayne was stopped on the bridge,
Speaker 1: he claimed he had pulled over into a liquor store
Speaker 1: parking lot and used a pay phone an attempt to
Speaker 1: call Cheryl Johnso you called the number, and what happened
Speaker 1: when you called the number one? When when I'm not
Speaker 1: on the number and I'm not on and then the
Speaker 1: verst time I got a you know, I'm um this
Speaker 1: number on this sermons und out and I doubt and
Speaker 1: no the number and then I think was nine and stuff,
Speaker 1: but I can't remember what. I've tried to uphone numbers
Speaker 1: and finally called one number and looked like I whoped
Speaker 1: somebody up and said, well, well master being there. He yeah,
Speaker 1: hum up to down phone like that, not to say
Speaker 1: it was the right number to the person say he eight.
Speaker 1: He had just slammed the phone bounce, So I whoped
Speaker 1: somebody up and I didn't try no more after that.
Speaker 1: This story does match the FBI reports, but I was
Speaker 1: still confused about the handwriting story and the mixed up
Speaker 1: on the phone numbers, so I asked him about it again.
Speaker 1: And so the FBI tried to call the number right
Speaker 1: and then said it didn't work or what no, no,
Speaker 1: no pain. They tried to call three four and now
Speaker 1: or three four like you understanding what I'm saying. Yes,
Speaker 1: So they called the wrong number, right, they tried. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I've never called the nine three four one, and that's them.
Speaker 1: I don't know what you know. The number I called
Speaker 1: was four three four seven s six six, and I
Speaker 1: got a lot of dude, I'm not in service or something.
Speaker 1: I can't remember now. And I tried because if I
Speaker 1: but about a minute, and I tried a couple of
Speaker 1: more combinations at all, and I got one with somebody
Speaker 1: else if he is slammed the phone down like that.
Speaker 1: You know, So the number that you had the one
Speaker 1: that they got wrong. Do you think the number that
Speaker 1: you had was her correct number? I don't think any
Speaker 1: of it was correct. That's the point I make it.
Speaker 1: I think she was a focus call from the beginning.
Speaker 1: That's my point. I think the Ryl Johnson was just
Speaker 1: some story he made up really quick too in the morning.
Speaker 1: Wayne could have said a hundred of different things besides
Speaker 1: Cheryl Johnson, which police never found, the Ryl Johnson with
Speaker 1: that phone number which didn't exist. Whatever Wayne was doing
Speaker 1: that night, I don't know. Wayne possibly could be hiding something,
Speaker 1: or maybe Wayne did kill Nathaniel Cator and maybe that's
Speaker 1: why he and Jimmy are the only two murders he
Speaker 1: was convicted of. But simply changing his story it doesn't
Speaker 1: prove anything as far as you know, why not years
Speaker 1: later Wayne said yeah, I lied, here's what I was
Speaker 1: really doing. But at the same time, you could argue
Speaker 1: and say why not years later, because let's be honest,
Speaker 1: I don't think Wayne will ever get out of prison.
Speaker 1: Why not years later say yeah, I'm gonna confess to everything,
Speaker 1: and here's how I did it. Wayne's entire existence is
Speaker 1: built on this. If he confesses, then you know that's
Speaker 1: a rap. Wayne Williams will just diminish. If Wayne confessed,
Speaker 1: he's Wayne was probably up to no good that night,
Speaker 1: but I don't think it involved uh Nathaniel Cator. I
Speaker 1: don't know that there. You know, there was that defining
Speaker 1: moment during that trial. There was one for me and
Speaker 1: as an observer that came at the very end, and
Speaker 1: I still think it is some of the strongest evidence
Speaker 1: that was presented in the trial. And I would tell
Speaker 1: you that your audience has never heard of it. The
Speaker 1: blood too of the last four victims were stabbed the
Speaker 1: end of the stream of murders, John Porter and William Barrett.
Speaker 1: There were two blood sains found in the station wagon.
Speaker 1: They typed them, neither one on her Wayne's blood, but
Speaker 1: they both matched the two victims that had been stabbed,
Speaker 1: Porter and Barren. The link was suggested by showing the
Speaker 1: jury this ripped up car seat that came from the
Speaker 1: seventies station wagon driven by Wayne Williams. An expert from
Speaker 1: the Georgia Crime Lab told the jury that she had
Speaker 1: found that four areas of dried blood on the seat.
Speaker 1: Two types were analyzed, Type A and type B. Prosecutors
Speaker 1: then had witnesses testify about blood samples taken from the
Speaker 1: bodies of John Porter and William Barrett, two victims found
Speaker 1: with stab wounds. Porter had type B, Barrett type A,
Speaker 1: the same as the samples found in the suspect's car.
Speaker 1: The jury also heard the dried blood in the car
Speaker 1: could not be from Williams since he was Type O,
Speaker 1: the state obviously suggesting that the bodies of Barrett and
Speaker 1: Porter were at one time on that seat. Of course,
Speaker 1: the defense wanted the jury to realize the connection is
Speaker 1: a shaky one since William's parents and the owners of
Speaker 1: the car, and uncle and aunt and thousands of other
Speaker 1: people may have had those blood types and driven in
Speaker 1: the car. But if you could get to the blood,
Speaker 1: I think if I recall us within six weeks, you
Speaker 1: can break it down even further. You get into an
Speaker 1: enzyme factor. They were able to do that. Both of
Speaker 1: those two victims had been stabbed within the last six weeks.
Speaker 1: Both of the two bloodstains in the back seat of
Speaker 1: Wayne Williams car. We're fresh enough to be able to
Speaker 1: break them down into the enzyme factor both matched Barrett
Speaker 1: and Porter. Prosecutors continued to close in with a connection.
Speaker 1: The jury, listening carefully and taking notes, heard that both
Speaker 1: Porter and Barrett had an enzyme type one. A further
Speaker 1: breakdown of their blood samples, the panel then heard that
Speaker 1: both stains in the car were enzyme type one. One
Speaker 1: of them. According to the testimony in the trial, that
Speaker 1: particular blood type an enzyme factor was found in only
Speaker 1: seven percent I care remember of seven percent of males
Speaker 1: or seven percent of African American males, but of seven
Speaker 1: percent the other one was found in only talking percentages.
Speaker 1: The witness has said only seven out of every one
Speaker 1: people would have Porters type be enzyme type one, and
Speaker 1: that twenty four out of every one people would have
Speaker 1: Barratts type A enzyme type one. Two victims stabbed two
Speaker 1: blood stains in his car, and they both match. It
Speaker 1: was physical evidence. That's not really circumstantial evidence. That's physical evidence.
Speaker 1: It's not a fingerprint, it's not a murder on a videotape.
Speaker 1: But it was very strong evidence. I thought at the
Speaker 1: end of that trial. Throughout my investigation, the case of
Speaker 1: Clifford Jones kept popping up. Jones's case stands out in
Speaker 1: particular because many people feel there's another viable suspect for
Speaker 1: the murder aside from Wayne Williams. I first found Dwayne
Speaker 1: Hendricks from a YouTube video of Clifford Jones's brother Emmanuel,
Speaker 1: and your brother's name was Clifford Jones. It was one
Speaker 1: earlier morning on the people had kidnapped my brother, man
Speaker 1: named Jamie Brooks. Horrors hopgood Freda cos these guys helped
Speaker 1: my brother captive in a laundron matt right on the
Speaker 1: corner how Dole What road. Hours later he was found
Speaker 1: near a dumpster behind them, all strangled, wrapped in plastic.
Speaker 1: His brother was inside being beaten and raped all day
Speaker 1: before they actually killed him. In dispose of his body.
Speaker 1: An alleged eye witness described the strangling of Jones and
Speaker 1: identified the strangler not Wayne Williams, but a man named
Speaker 1: Jamie Brooks. He knewed Wayne Williams didn't kill his brother.
Speaker 1: He knew that. And despite all that evidence, the task
Speaker 1: force blamed Clifford Jones murder not on Jamie Brooks, but
Speaker 1: on Wayne Williams. The investigators reviewing the case file on
Speaker 1: Clifford Jones released to Channel two News under court order
Speaker 1: a file containing statements from five eye witnesses who point
Speaker 1: to a suspect other than Wayne Williams as the killer
Speaker 1: of Jones. Jones's case also stood out to Fiber analyst
Speaker 1: Larry Peterson. To Peterson, Jones's case was one of the
Speaker 1: only puzzles you couldn't put together. Clifford Jones case became,
Speaker 1: I think important in my mind one because it was
Speaker 1: the first one I went to and it was the
Speaker 1: one that seemed to be the submit the need the
Speaker 1: former task force. At this crime scene, one of the
Speaker 1: things I did was examined the body. Look around the body,
Speaker 1: you know, are their tire prints are there? Shoot prints?
Speaker 1: Are is there anything? But from a crime scene standpoint,
Speaker 1: and literally there was nothing but the body itself. The
Speaker 1: only things I had noticed and collected was over twenty
Speaker 1: beige carpet fibers loose in his hair, on his skin,
Speaker 1: on his clothes, and I collected him at the crime scene.
Speaker 1: That was one of the fiber types that I'm convinced
Speaker 1: is important because they were so loose and so many
Speaker 1: they had to be tied to how his his body
Speaker 1: got there. Whatever sample came in, that was one of
Speaker 1: the ones I would always go. It was the green carpet.
Speaker 1: There was some other things, but in his case, I
Speaker 1: always looked for the his page carpet fibers on any
Speaker 1: samples submitted for comparison, and actually through the trial they
Speaker 1: never matched anything. So that was always kind of a
Speaker 1: mystery fiber as to what, then where did they come from?
Speaker 1: That had had bugged me through post trial. It always
Speaker 1: had bugged me. The thing that I wanted to know
Speaker 1: most was I wanted to know everything about what the
Speaker 1: evidence meant. So a year after trial, to satisfy his
Speaker 1: own professional and scientific curiosity, Very investigated further. You couldn't
Speaker 1: reconcile these missing pieces. So they had put these records
Speaker 1: into evidence that they had these three different for pharamontmonts
Speaker 1: the family was getting using its rentals. This was news
Speaker 1: to me. It turns out between seventy one the William
Speaker 1: Stanley was in possession of at least six cars at
Speaker 1: one time, or another three being rental cars. I was
Speaker 1: at Fulton County about a year after the trial, and
Speaker 1: I went by the Hill Attorney's office and talked to
Speaker 1: Joe Drole, and I said, is there any way if
Speaker 1: the defense put those real agreements into evidence, is it
Speaker 1: possible I could get copies? So he supplied me with
Speaker 1: copies of the real agreements, which include then numbers and
Speaker 1: descriptions of the automobiles. So I took that and I
Speaker 1: ran it through our Crime Information Center, through the Vehicle
Speaker 1: Administration and came up with the fact that those had
Speaker 1: been sold as used cars, and I had GBI agents
Speaker 1: go to those locations collect trunk liner and floorboard fibers
Speaker 1: from those three rental cars. In the meantime, I looked
Speaker 1: at the time sequences and when the rental agreements were
Speaker 1: and what victims disappeared in those time sequences. Clifford Jones
Speaker 1: fell to the same time sequence. So when that fiber
Speaker 1: sample came in from the trunk liner and from the floorboard,
Speaker 1: the first thing I found was that there beige carpet
Speaker 1: fibers in the floorboard of the rental car that matched
Speaker 1: the Clifford. Wow, you know, I had a I had
Speaker 1: a stronger case after the trial than I even did
Speaker 1: during the trial. What he found during his investigation was
Speaker 1: the base carpet fibers, the ones he could never match
Speaker 1: before trial, the ones that link Clifford Jones to a
Speaker 1: car in way William's possession. One of those things where
Speaker 1: everything built on everything else that came after it. Nothing
Speaker 1: ever eliminated him, nothing ever eliminated White. Everything we would
Speaker 1: come to kept him in the ballpark. Lewis Layton said
Speaker 1: at the beginning of the trial. It's a puzzle and
Speaker 1: we're gonna put all the pieces together. And as you
Speaker 1: watch that puzzle being filled in, they kind of answered
Speaker 1: every question for the jury. So it's a case to
Speaker 1: me that its strength was in the totality of all
Speaker 1: of it. Does he have any defense Lloyds than anybody.
Speaker 1: He had a good one for a while, Jack Jack
Speaker 1: markin Jack Spit attorney. I think if Jack saw something
Speaker 1: here or didn't see something here, that's why he's not
Speaker 1: involved anybody. I think everybody's most interested in Wayne. They
Speaker 1: realized that he's the right guy, you know. So it's
Speaker 1: I don't see much happening on the Wayne Williams right.
Speaker 1: The bridge made it, the fibers made it, the blood
Speaker 1: made it, the eyewitnesses made it. It was everything. And
Speaker 1: they told you what Wayne's life was and how it
Speaker 1: fit into all this, of his taking these cars and
Speaker 1: driving for hundreds and hundreds of miles, driving in the
Speaker 1: late night, early morning hours, picking up young boys, going
Speaker 1: to be a music producer, never really producing anything. They
Speaker 1: gave the jury a picture of who this guy was.
Speaker 1: The story of Wayne Williams is one story because he
Speaker 1: was charged and convicted with the murder of adults. That's
Speaker 1: one story. But the other story the children, the girls,
Speaker 1: the boys who were murdered, who were dumped. How do
Speaker 1: you introduce evidence from another crime that the defendant's not
Speaker 1: charged with. Georgia law allows you to bring in what
Speaker 1: they call a similar transaction. Was a two part test.
Speaker 1: You had proved to a judge that there was some
Speaker 1: evidence linking the defendant to the crime, and there was
Speaker 1: some evidence that the crime would show a pattern, a
Speaker 1: scheme and a bent of mind of that defendant. Oh
Speaker 1: my god, this is what Lewis Layton's going to do
Speaker 1: with Wayne Williams. And we're going to have the child
Speaker 1: murder trial. It's not going to be Jimmy Ray Paine
Speaker 1: and Nathaniel Cater. I would say that whatever law Louis
Speaker 1: Layton used at that time period, it was probably the
Speaker 1: most expedient thing to do. If there were enough similarities,
Speaker 1: then just dump it all on one. And that not
Speaker 1: criticizing Mr Slayton. It's just saying it appeared at that
Speaker 1: time to be the best thing to do. It gave
Speaker 1: the public and again it answered a question in the
Speaker 1: jury's mind, what about the kids? And they gave I
Speaker 1: believe Atlanta the child murder trial. As I said before,
Speaker 1: God was anonymous and I won't seeing him know why witnesses.
Speaker 1: It is amazing we convicted him without any eye witnesses
Speaker 1: that a single person came forward. And the witnesses that
Speaker 1: we had were very shaky at best. They thought they
Speaker 1: saw this. They thought what they said that I was
Speaker 1: not involved in the trial, but they but again it
Speaker 1: was all Harris or Fibers, and today it would be
Speaker 1: a very interesting case. Wayne Williams told reporters at a
Speaker 1: press conference in June that he didn't know any of
Speaker 1: the victims on the task force listn't associates, no family.
Speaker 1: The state has witnesses that will place the victims with Williams.
Speaker 1: The next door neighbor of the Williams did say he
Speaker 1: saw Wayne the day the suspect was supposed to be
Speaker 1: with victim Larry Rodgers. Two relatives of the victim said
Speaker 1: Wayne Williams was seen with Barrett several months before his death.
Speaker 1: More damaging testimony today from other witnesses who claimed to
Speaker 1: have seen Cater alive on May one. One woman placed
Speaker 1: the suspect with Terry Pew, but in April of last year.
Speaker 1: Five months after Pew's body was found, Margaret Carter, a
Speaker 1: woman who lives in northwest Atlanta, told the jury that
Speaker 1: she saw Williams with victim Nathaniel Cater, and this for
Speaker 1: Bena Street Park a week before Cater's body was found
Speaker 1: in the Chattahoochee River, and the witness also said alongside
Speaker 1: the two men was a German shepherd. But the person
Speaker 1: who stood out as the most credible witness was this woman,
Speaker 1: Nellie Trammell, who placed Wayne Williams in a car with
Speaker 1: Larry Rogers, saying the slightly retarded man was slumped over
Speaker 1: in the past in your seat. A week later, Roger's
Speaker 1: body is found near Simpson Road. A lot of the
Speaker 1: witnesses were unrelowed when people got to remember that this
Speaker 1: case gave the trial that was a half million dollar
Speaker 1: cares reward or information into the risk in conviction of
Speaker 1: anyone associated with the Atlantic killing, and an obvious by
Speaker 1: the testimony that these motivated when they thought that they
Speaker 1: would be able to collect reward for the party. Ken
Speaker 1: Lawson worked in the Task Force headquarters, answering phones and
Speaker 1: writing reports, but Lawson was amazed to see Nellie travel
Speaker 1: as a witness telling the jury the elderly woman was
Speaker 1: almost a regular at Task Force headquarters who would sit
Speaker 1: there for hours knitting. Every time a body was found,
Speaker 1: she'd call about it. It got to the point, he
Speaker 1: said that recruits would try and pass Nellie's calls off
Speaker 1: to each other and the witnesses we're just playing wrong.
Speaker 1: Like one guy was an eighty nine year old guy
Speaker 1: who could not see an elderly man who may have
Speaker 1: been discredited by the defense it's because of poor eyesight,
Speaker 1: testified he saw Williams with paying last April, identified me
Speaker 1: of poliper was Jimmy Ray pain on banking at Highway
Speaker 1: from a business of a quarter a mile away, and
Speaker 1: he couldn't even identify me any court rooms, so you know,
Speaker 1: he was laughable. Another witness came into the courtroom an
Speaker 1: admitted just before testifying, he had just smoke. Another witness
Speaker 1: nicknamed Colbury, he's putting Williams with. Larry Rodgers, was an
Speaker 1: admitted drug user and in fact told the jury he
Speaker 1: had smoked marijuana before testifying. His credibility was strained and
Speaker 1: he wasn't able to peeck me out on the witness stand,
Speaker 1: so he pulls out a piece of paper on his pocket.
Speaker 1: Say yeah, but I've seen this guy in the dow
Speaker 1: this paper. You know, it was ridiculous, because ridiculous. The
Speaker 1: other hand, you did have some witnesses pay or just
Speaker 1: playing wrong in their association. With one of those witnesses,
Speaker 1: Ken Hynes, but thought he so Joseph Dale better a
Speaker 1: court studio that we had on Janior the third. Kent Hinzman,
Speaker 1: a twenty four year old songwriter, says he spent more
Speaker 1: to January third with Williams in this Buckhead recording studio,
Speaker 1: and there with Williams was a teenager by the name
Speaker 1: of Joseph Joe Joe Bell. I remember Joe Joe because
Speaker 1: he came in and he uh, he's sang for fr
Speaker 1: you know, he's sing a few tunes and he had
Speaker 1: a very good voice, and I was asking Wayne where
Speaker 1: was he gonna do it in. Wayne said he was
Speaker 1: going to sign the guy to a contract immediately. And
Speaker 1: at the same time you had another state with this
Speaker 1: testified that she saw me with movie on that same
Speaker 1: day as recording studio system was Hill. A middle aged
Speaker 1: white woman, Ruth Warren, told the jury she also saw
Speaker 1: Williams with Jeter the day the thirteen year old boy disappeared.
Speaker 1: He provided an alibi for me because we were recorded.
Speaker 1: She knew with bucket miles away up from where to
Speaker 1: get here, so you had to stay. Witness is complicted
Speaker 1: with each other, but the witness could not remember under
Speaker 1: cross examination when she told police about the sighting over
Speaker 1: this story to help y'all. Lot of whatever y'all podcast about.
Speaker 1: It's cool, man, but this ship won't. What I'm telling y'all. Recently,
Speaker 1: a man named Tony came to the office and told
Speaker 1: me a story he's only ever told his family. I
Speaker 1: ain't making none of this man. This ship real, n
Speaker 1: ain't trying to get no nigger in trouble who ain't
Speaker 1: shouldn't be talking about or putting no lies on nobody.
Speaker 1: It's true facts. Man, My cousin, we was going to
Speaker 1: the Lamba Zoo, so we ever rode the bikes over there.
Speaker 1: We snuck into zoo a matter of fact, you know
Speaker 1: what I'm saying, with to one of the back gates
Speaker 1: where had turned one way or the other. You know,
Speaker 1: we slid through. So we had chained our bikes up
Speaker 1: by side and we came back out to do the
Speaker 1: bikes were gone. We were based right does this post?
Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying, More like how we're gonna
Speaker 1: get back home? I was living there then the project
Speaker 1: it was called Greater Homes. So I was walking back
Speaker 1: across the park going back to Greater Homes, and out
Speaker 1: of the blue, this guy came off the top of
Speaker 1: the hill. He was like, Hey, what's going on? Hey
Speaker 1: y'all doing you're you're you're okay? I was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: we find said somebody ha stole my bi silk of
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. We was over at the
Speaker 1: zoo and then we gotta walk back home. So he
Speaker 1: was like you need a ride? Like now, we're good,
Speaker 1: we we can walk. You know what I'm Sayings like, well,
Speaker 1: my dad on this church is the pastor of this
Speaker 1: church over here. It was like a the housing area
Speaker 1: and I'm since I had remember that church because had
Speaker 1: been over there. So I was like, yeah, I've been
Speaker 1: to that church before, you know what I'm saying. So
Speaker 1: so he's like, yeah, my dad is a pastor. He
Speaker 1: said he'll take your home. Y'all. Ain't got to walk
Speaker 1: all the way back to the Greater Home. You know
Speaker 1: what I'm saying. I was like, well cool then, so
Speaker 1: we was following him back to the church. I think
Speaker 1: his dad is on to us a ride. Instead of
Speaker 1: him taking us straight across the street to the church,
Speaker 1: where he took up to the street and took us
Speaker 1: up a pathway in the back of the houses that
Speaker 1: we were along the street that led to the church.
Speaker 1: That's when things tarted to feel a little weird. Why
Speaker 1: are you Why are you taking up this way? I
Speaker 1: kind of felt kind officient about while he took up
Speaker 1: through this pathway. So by the time we got back
Speaker 1: on the open the weather whether the church set off
Speaker 1: the street, it's a car Paul back now. So he
Speaker 1: was more like, y'all gonna get in the car and
Speaker 1: get my dad, and my daddy gonna take y'all know.
Speaker 1: So I was like, no, we're just gonna wait till
Speaker 1: your dad to come, you know what I'm saying. The
Speaker 1: man got anty and aggressive, and Tony knew something wasn't right.
Speaker 1: He had to get out of there. So I like, anyway,
Speaker 1: I gotta pee, you know what I'm saying. So I
Speaker 1: piste on the side of the car. So my cousin
Speaker 1: Bobo would like standing by the car beside me, and
Speaker 1: he was telling my cup were you're just going to
Speaker 1: get in, you know what I'm saying. So he was like, no,
Speaker 1: I we ain't gonna get in, just gonna get your dad,
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. So he started looking around.
Speaker 1: When he stepped back to the car, ga he had
Speaker 1: opened the car door. That's where he got aggressive. It's
Speaker 1: holding me in a change. It's my old theory was
Speaker 1: get us in this car. It turned from my dad's
Speaker 1: and take your holy y'all, get your motherfucker' dad. And
Speaker 1: this goddamn call. He had grabbed us in the back
Speaker 1: of a church where nobody was around. He tried to
Speaker 1: throw us in the car. For him to try and
Speaker 1: get two at a time was a tax. So when
Speaker 1: we tried to break through, when we started hitting on him,
Speaker 1: and he couldn't let one get away and keep one,
Speaker 1: and so he had to reach it two people in
Speaker 1: two different direction. That's how we broke away. He lost
Speaker 1: grill for one lost grip or we split it up,
Speaker 1: and so I ran one way and my cousin ran
Speaker 1: back the way we came. And I look back and
Speaker 1: I'm right, I don't see nobody to hid me so
Speaker 1: I'm thinking he probably got my cousin. So I'm running
Speaker 1: up street crying, get way up down, you know what
Speaker 1: I'm saying. Then all of a sudden, my cousin come out.
Speaker 1: He pop up. I SAI out there, you get away,
Speaker 1: he said, shot. I just kipt running. He ain't come
Speaker 1: hid me. So I went back to the house. I
Speaker 1: was telling my mom's I was like, I just tried
Speaker 1: to throw us in the car, tried to kidnap us.
Speaker 1: So I took him where the coach paul. I took
Speaker 1: away where he took us to, and the car was gone,
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. So the only description I
Speaker 1: had then that he kind of favored my brother five
Speaker 1: six five seven, you know what I'm saying. With glasses,
Speaker 1: Tony told his mother that the dangerous man that tried
Speaker 1: to abduct him looks kind of like his own brother,
Speaker 1: a black man with bushy hair and glasses. At first,
Speaker 1: the man was nameless, but then Tony sold the news.
Speaker 1: In a year or so went back. My mama was
Speaker 1: looking at it on the news and I was like,
Speaker 1: that's the same guy who tried to grab both mom.
Speaker 1: The guy who did it, I remember his face clearly
Speaker 1: everything came together and I saw his face. I knew
Speaker 1: that was him Way Williams. And so she was like,
Speaker 1: you shure, I said, that's him. Might never get that guy?
Speaker 1: Say you remember I told he looked just like Read.
Speaker 1: And I said, now, don't he looked like Read? And
Speaker 1: she was like, yeah, he do. Favorite in a little
Speaker 1: bit like that said, I never get the face we
Speaker 1: cause we fought with him, and there ain't no mistaken
Speaker 1: and no I identity there. You know, I can picture
Speaker 1: that whole day clearly. And I looked this man in
Speaker 1: his face. You know what I'm saying. This man tried
Speaker 1: to do man and and I know he tried to
Speaker 1: do it though you know what I'm saying, one like
Speaker 1: he was playing him. He got real serious, you know,
Speaker 1: So he tried to put us in this car. In hindsight,
Speaker 1: Tony realized the man's gestures were actually manipulative and calculated charm. Way,
Speaker 1: don't we pray without suspicion. If I would have been
Speaker 1: by myself, he probably would have killed me. He might
Speaker 1: have took all bites. He might have saw his colm
Speaker 1: down and took our bicycles. So he knew that we
Speaker 1: were gonna have to walk back. He could have killed me.
Speaker 1: People believe different type of ways. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: But I know for a fact what he tried to
Speaker 1: do to me, and I know how caring in and
Speaker 1: conniv here. It ain't never going to trick somebody in
Speaker 1: the car with him. To Tony, it all made sense
Speaker 1: all the stories about Wayne Williams. He says he saw
Speaker 1: it firsthand. He wasn't coming at you like a monster.
Speaker 1: He was coming to you like a friend, you know,
Speaker 1: to get your trust, to get you in there call.
Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying. That's why he did what
Speaker 1: he did for so long, acause he made no scene
Speaker 1: doing what he was doing. It was so normal how
Speaker 1: he'll get you in that call with nobody recognize. I've
Speaker 1: seen how he tried to do us. You probably need
Speaker 1: to been talking to me today. Real told I don't
Speaker 1: say I'm telling real. I ain't got I ain't benefiting
Speaker 1: nothing from this. You know what I'm saying. My family
Speaker 1: knew about this. I don't talk about this. Nobody ain't
Speaker 1: come at you like no no beasts to get your attention.
Speaker 1: He put up a hitching the here the babyball back
Speaker 1: and throw you in truck and how he worked. Now
Speaker 1: they was already from a low end call family problem.
Speaker 1: Ain't had too much food in the house, you know
Speaker 1: what I'm saying, Anything but swam a canon ball ice cream. Man.
Speaker 1: Ain't got no remorse. Man, don't kill you, know what
Speaker 1: I'm saying. He ain't sitting back in prison really crying.
Speaker 1: He's innocent. He ain't really fighting that hard to let
Speaker 1: folk know he need to be out of prison. He's
Speaker 1: just doing his time because they know he killed the
Speaker 1: mother church. They just can't prove it he did that. Man,
Speaker 1: he's a monster, I know him, master killing a lot
Speaker 1: of babies. Know what I'm saying. She's sad man. I
Speaker 1: thought it was only fair to share this story with
Speaker 1: Wayne to see what he said about it. Tony made
Speaker 1: a lot of bold claims, but very convincingly. I asked
Speaker 1: Wayne for his take. He Uh, He came into my
Speaker 1: office a few days ago and he told me that
Speaker 1: he thinks that you tried to abduct him and his
Speaker 1: cousin at the back of a church, A pack of
Speaker 1: a what back of a church. He said that the
Speaker 1: man said his dad was a pastor at the church.
Speaker 1: That's ridiculously you know. That's that's one thing about this tribe.
Speaker 1: You've got people who who call forth with these stories
Speaker 1: after the back. And you've got to remember, after my
Speaker 1: picture was blasted all over the news on June the fourth,
Speaker 1: You've had all types of people coming forced and I
Speaker 1: know this guy. On My point is why were these
Speaker 1: people before? Why were these people when these incidents happened.
Speaker 1: You know at the time that they could not identify anybody. Now,
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that somebody may not have tried to
Speaker 1: abduct these people at all, but for what I'm saying
Speaker 1: is that there's enough signs to togetherness. We know the
Speaker 1: data prove that that witness testimony could be painted and
Speaker 1: influenced by publicity after the fact. And that's no doubt
Speaker 1: what happened in this case. And a lot with a
Speaker 1: lot of these witnesses true, absolutely not. You know, that's
Speaker 1: ridiculous right there. You know, I don't even know these people,
Speaker 1: and and and here we are years later. You know,
Speaker 1: I hear stories like that. You know, again, we've heard
Speaker 1: it all from the years. But my point is, if
Speaker 1: it was true, of these people would have come out
Speaker 1: a long time ago. One thing I developed over the
Speaker 1: years from from this thing paint, I developed a tough skin.
Speaker 1: I've heard everything I've heard, even the jokes and everything.
Speaker 1: You know, I've heard it all. But that that doesn't
Speaker 1: phaze my results getting you out, you know, because the
Speaker 1: fact is is that you know, I'm in of what
Speaker 1: happened in Atlanta, Georgia, and that's that's the same focus
Speaker 1: that I've got to have right now. But Tony story
Speaker 1: wasn't the only one I was told. There was one more.
Speaker 1: Don't be his lawyer. You know what I'm saying, Don't
Speaker 1: be his savior, Don't be his guard. You know what
Speaker 1: I'm saying, because I know what I've seen my own eyes.
Speaker 1: At this time, I was staying on one side of
Speaker 1: the town, the bank Heads side of the town, and
Speaker 1: we had moved from Grand Paul and Unstead State there.
Speaker 1: So once sign that I went over there to play
Speaker 1: with my cousin, they'll make grand problems at Grandpaul playing.
Speaker 1: Then when I left, instead of me waiting on the
Speaker 1: bus at Nana Avenue, I went up by Atlanta Food
Speaker 1: and County Stadium and I was sitting in the bus
Speaker 1: stout waiting on the bus. And then a bit blue
Speaker 1: Chevrolet pool up stopped in the middle of the street
Speaker 1: and he left the one of that. He's a can
Speaker 1: you tell him matter the mother Luther King? He said,
Speaker 1: what what you stayed? I said, when I stay on bank, kid,
Speaker 1: But you know what I'm saying, I'm gonna get rid
Speaker 1: of going. He said, I get your ride. That's not
Speaker 1: only eating nor ride. I sat back down in the booth,
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. So I heard some car TiAl,
Speaker 1: so I get back up in lootle. He whipped the
Speaker 1: car around in the middle of the street. You know something,
Speaker 1: But this is on the sun in front of food
Speaker 1: and Counter stadium. Wasn't no game, so buses run slow,
Speaker 1: ain't halding nobody, you know, moving something like I ain't
Speaker 1: no more car coming back. So he w back up
Speaker 1: by the bus stop and right up on the side walk,
Speaker 1: you know, saying. So I jump up and I was
Speaker 1: looking at the sketch. I was looking at the sketching
Speaker 1: and back of my mind like this, ain't dude be
Speaker 1: on TV, Like you know what I mean. So I
Speaker 1: stood up and looked and at first I did jump back,
Speaker 1: like is there for real? I'm looking at him? And
Speaker 1: he stepped out with one leg and the little at
Speaker 1: frow stick up in there. He looked me dead in
Speaker 1: the favorite the glasses on. I'm like, bro, I really
Speaker 1: got to be kidding because they already saying they're looking
Speaker 1: for you. You know what I'm saying. And you steal
Speaker 1: a lot playing And I had told him I didn't
Speaker 1: eat no ride, and I had told him what Mother
Speaker 1: the King was, and if you're from Atlanta, he didn't
Speaker 1: really have to turn around right now. He could have
Speaker 1: went down to the red light, made it right, and
Speaker 1: went to Mother the King. When he pulled the car around,
Speaker 1: he pulled up on the sidewalk like he was trying
Speaker 1: to kidnap me. I can't be the judge of what
Speaker 1: Wayne did. But the only thing I can say with
Speaker 1: somebody to say he didn't kill out them churus. And
Speaker 1: that's why I'll be standing him saying today, Waite pumped
Speaker 1: your brakes. Everybody in the project. I knew they were poked.
Speaker 1: So we didn't fight each other like they do now.
Speaker 1: Gangs him. Now, we didn't fight each other like in
Speaker 1: front of the project. You poled like me, you got
Speaker 1: no reason to fight. But if we hear something about Wayne,
Speaker 1: we're gonna your mom's gonna call my mom. Door neighbor said, Wayne,
Speaker 1: why don't you trying to get her song? That was
Speaker 1: the conversation man. Then, yeah, they were saying Wayne william
Speaker 1: They weren't saying no man in the blue cold Wayne Williams.
Speaker 1: They would call him by their name, so they did.
Speaker 1: It's real to me, I ain't you ain't offer me
Speaker 1: no money, You don't offer me nothing. I'm did telling
Speaker 1: you what happened for real. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: We was already as kids, preparing for if he came.
Speaker 1: And when he came, you know what I mean. No,
Speaker 1: guys started buying a little pocket knives and stuff, you know,
Speaker 1: like get a piece of glass and wrap it up
Speaker 1: in the napkin, put in your pocket, like you know,
Speaker 1: you ever got in trouble or somebody to pull up
Speaker 1: and try to get you, that was your weapon. I
Speaker 1: mean you listen, man, listen. I'm not trying to debate
Speaker 1: with nobody, never about what I've seen or what happened
Speaker 1: to me. So you know what I'm saying. I don't
Speaker 1: eat nobody runn up for me. Twenty year later saying
Speaker 1: what you see Wayne? You know? But I know what
Speaker 1: I've seen. I don't have to keep on trying to
Speaker 1: rehash it like I'm trying to convince nobody. You know
Speaker 1: what I'm saying. I know Wayne, I don't see Waine
Speaker 1: since then. You know, shook Waine hands just to get
Speaker 1: in front of him. Like, bro, you know seeing me
Speaker 1: before eight and nine, I was a young you know,
Speaker 1: a little young rich dude that doesn't cut my fur dope.
Speaker 1: Kay went down the road and uh man, they put
Speaker 1: some dope on. But you know what I'm saying, They said,
Speaker 1: dude up in the love library, but help you out.
Speaker 1: When I went up there and seeing who it wolves,
Speaker 1: you know it kind of I w was not not
Speaker 1: came there and work on mine cave. You know what
Speaker 1: I'm saying, Like that would just me Waine were working
Speaker 1: in what they call the live library. No, wa ain't
Speaker 1: in there. He doesn't kind of trick the folks saying
Speaker 1: like I'm small, let me work in the long library.
Speaker 1: So when you go in the long library, you got
Speaker 1: the dope case. We ain't making friend with the dope
Speaker 1: boys because he needs really protection, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: Like if I get in Google something of y'all, I
Speaker 1: can get the rest of the folks on my back
Speaker 1: because everybody got keen people in him. He is like
Speaker 1: to Pope, people's lawyer. But here get in there with
Speaker 1: the books and the entertain You see him he reading
Speaker 1: the book, but you had guys in there who didn't
Speaker 1: how I low your mind? And so I was like,
Speaker 1: I'm some heart. You know I don't find to go
Speaker 1: to college. So I started working on my own case.
Speaker 1: So I'm sitting there. Way ain't just like y'all sitting there,
Speaker 1: not that it made Wayne. You know, I'm saying, like
Speaker 1: he kept nobody in my family or got people saying
Speaker 1: he didn't do it. You know what I'm saying. So
Speaker 1: so when you see you and said what you're here
Speaker 1: for a little bro, you know what I'm saying that
Speaker 1: you might not know he ain't William. You'd be like, man,
Speaker 1: they're playing it some dope on me. You know what
Speaker 1: I'm saying. That's how you broke when you're they're playing
Speaker 1: it some dope on me. That wouldn't need my dope.
Speaker 1: They were right up his atlet Oh. Now I can
Speaker 1: work on his case and being my friendship U and
Speaker 1: I can get people to stop saying I'm gonna killer.
Speaker 1: So with Wayne would do a look over your case
Speaker 1: for you your mean and be like, yeah, we're gonna
Speaker 1: find this heyper crepy right here and get your case overturned.
Speaker 1: You're gonna go home. So Wayne was in the hipping
Speaker 1: people when you and now Wayne is your friend because
Speaker 1: guess who is your enemate? The system? Everybody isn't ever
Speaker 1: like when I see him, I'm gonna kill him. And
Speaker 1: see if you got that one children missing? You got
Speaker 1: that man? You got thirty four k folks in the
Speaker 1: cools and their threws and brothers. When I see him,
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna chok him. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: You know, but they couldn't get to him like that,
Speaker 1: like when you go to the Low Library you sign
Speaker 1: a piece of paper and they handcuffed and take you up.
Speaker 1: Then they opened the door and throw you in thew
Speaker 1: and you're like, she ain't might kill me you up
Speaker 1: in the library. You know he might be done. Made
Speaker 1: a shank and put it in the Low Library book.
Speaker 1: So if he got a raise in the in the book,
Speaker 1: he could jook you with your say, if he's a killer,
Speaker 1: know what man want to face the story killer not
Speaker 1: then no, one day do coming out and I want
Speaker 1: to say he was from Capital Home. I remember we're
Speaker 1: having a small conversation. He was like, I'm gonna get him.
Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying, I'm gonna get him. I
Speaker 1: guess the little kid Toba jt or somebody from Capital.
Speaker 1: He got missing some kind of way. He turned the
Speaker 1: cone in the library and you can hear the number. Oh, y'all,
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. When I looked around the
Speaker 1: way picking the glasses about the ground, you know that
Speaker 1: tear coming out of his eyes and and I didn't
Speaker 1: see that, I said, he just it. It was something
Speaker 1: on his mind. He wanted to get out of like
Speaker 1: you want to file for Wayne. We didn't ask for
Speaker 1: this life with folded food stamps in the way. I
Speaker 1: found the wick in the government cheese and the pile
Speaker 1: of milk. Like he listen today. We had apartment. You
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying. The lights was on, but when
Speaker 1: on furniture, and I went on food, And I'm like,
Speaker 1: where we're gonna get it from? One thought? One part
Speaker 1: of history. I don't know. Somebody got to tear me
Speaker 1: who started first, Hayden? It had to be one or
Speaker 1: two people. It couldn't have been Jesus wasn't but somebody
Speaker 1: had to start Hayden hatred and race sealson. They now
Speaker 1: but telling us that in schood until a bunch of
Speaker 1: us get together and start knocking at the at the
Speaker 1: dope and have our own Niga man march or Blacks
Speaker 1: and Whites not no where ass and protests. I don't
Speaker 1: want you to go to jail for me, like if
Speaker 1: we don't come together as one. And I said, we
Speaker 1: can hear the conversation every week if we feel like
Speaker 1: it will make a difference. But this Dwayne Williams show,
Speaker 1: You know what I was saying, But we need another
Speaker 1: show and we want to break the race relationss. If
Speaker 1: there's one thing I've learned throughout my work on Atlanta,
Speaker 1: Monster said, no matter how you slice it, this story
Speaker 1: is bigger than an investigation, bigger than a trial, and
Speaker 1: bigger than Wayne Williams. This case invokes deep emotions even
Speaker 1: in people that weren't directly affected by the killings, and
Speaker 1: from what I've seen, it's inextuably tied to a feeling
Speaker 1: of social struggle. No matter who committed these crimes, the
Speaker 1: people of Atlanta, particularly the black community, didn't feel safe.
Speaker 1: We're sufficiently supported through sensationalized media and heightened pressure. The
Speaker 1: children that were murdered almost seemed to become a secondary
Speaker 1: narrative to the story of Wayne Williams. But it's most
Speaker 1: important to remember how this all started. With Edward Hope
Speaker 1: Smith on July one, nineteen seventy nine. I think cast
Speaker 1: such as what you're doing pay are one of the
Speaker 1: best ways to attack, dismissinformation and trying to get people
Speaker 1: to open the eyes and see, wait a minute, you
Speaker 1: know it's trying to wake up. It seeks truth. You're
Speaker 1: trying to tell a very difficult story, and you've done
Speaker 1: as best a job as you could tell him. Then,
Speaker 1: so I guess they speak experts them because that's all
Speaker 1: paining you tackle to probably one case, the very few
Speaker 1: of us understand and and and and our command you
Speaker 1: but trying Who is the Atlanta monster? We don't know,
Speaker 1: but we really don't know. And I think that that
Speaker 1: it's clear at this point that was never any single
Speaker 1: a line of monster. I think that your monster is
Speaker 1: probably a group of of some of these by supremacists
Speaker 1: who vother some of these killers. I think your monster
Speaker 1: is probably people involved in some of these six and
Speaker 1: drug ranks that no doubt kill some of these victors.
Speaker 1: And I think your line of monster may well be
Speaker 1: the streets of Atlanta. In the cases in which to
Speaker 1: pick us, we're victors the street crack. So I think
Speaker 1: it's done an Atlanta monster. You probably need to read
Speaker 1: latel it at line of monsters and put a plural
Speaker 1: on the end of it. Wayne, did you murder anybody? Hell?
Speaker 1: I have not killed anybody in my life. Okay, that's
Speaker 1: the question people ask all the time, and it's a
Speaker 1: question that I will for people to ask because, let
Speaker 1: let me tell you something. You know, I can let
Speaker 1: people in the eye because my soul is arrest with God.
Speaker 1: I sleep very good at night because we've all done
Speaker 1: things it's not life that are wrong, if we're not
Speaker 1: proud of. They are probably billion things that I've done
Speaker 1: in my life that I could have been arrested for,
Speaker 1: but killing somebody isn't one of them. And I think
Speaker 1: anybody who really knows me and knows my character those
Speaker 1: that this is a situation that was strung stub against me.
Speaker 1: So I sleep good enough. It's this murder mystery that
Speaker 1: never ends. As you know, there's just so many questions.
Speaker 1: We're fascinated by crime stories. This is never going to
Speaker 1: go away unless someone is arrested found guilty of killing
Speaker 1: one or two of these children, and somebody else is
Speaker 1: arrested and found guilty of killing a child. Now it's
Speaker 1: never going to go away. And even then it won't
Speaker 1: go away because there will be still be people who say,
Speaker 1: I don't believe he did it. This is a story
Speaker 1: that will last longer than the two of us. There
Speaker 1: is this growing sense that if we don't figure this
Speaker 1: out now, maybe we never will. You know, is this
Speaker 1: going to go into some Jack the Ripper style vault
Speaker 1: of perpetually unsolved mysteries. I don't think it's opening up
Speaker 1: an old wound, because I think the wound is healed,
Speaker 1: because many people say Wayne Williams is in jail and
Speaker 1: that's it. But I think what it's doing is informing
Speaker 1: a new generation because there are a lot of people
Speaker 1: have never heard of this case because they weren't born
Speaker 1: when it happened. And so now it serves two purposes
Speaker 1: the historical perspective. Two, it also opens up new minds
Speaker 1: to investigate the case and then three, it reminds young
Speaker 1: people you can't run footloose and fancy for you all
Speaker 1: over the city and think someone's not gonna grab you.
Speaker 1: Although we'll never know why those particular children were taken,
Speaker 1: and they were poor, they were black, they were in
Speaker 1: a poor part of town, alone, and right now there's
Speaker 1: still alone. They are alone, and that no one seems
Speaker 1: to bother about saying, I really want to know who
Speaker 1: killed Luby Cheeter, I really want to know what happened.
Speaker 1: Who's been holding something inside for all these years? For
Speaker 1: many of these children, The way that they were characterized
Speaker 1: suggested to people, there's no reason for you to cry
Speaker 1: for yourself because they don't have to mean anything for you,
Speaker 1: and you don't have to cry for them and what
Speaker 1: they lost either, because that wasn't going to amount to
Speaker 1: anything much, And that to me is not only tragic
Speaker 1: and upsetting, it is simply untrue. It's not true for anybody.
Speaker 1: It felt heavy, That's how it felt. It felt sad,
Speaker 1: and it felt like like there was a very terrible person,
Speaker 1: indeed a monster who's just devouring black men. This is
Speaker 1: former Atlanta Mayor becausiem Read. His term in office just
Speaker 1: ended this year. I was mayor for two thousand nine
Speaker 1: and twenty days. He remembers the child murders firsthand as
Speaker 1: a young boy growing up in Atlanta. There needs to
Speaker 1: be an equality to the importance of life. To the
Speaker 1: extent that you have really equality of the importance of life,
Speaker 1: you would have had more attention faster if it were
Speaker 1: a white child. Any child is harmed, we also have
Speaker 1: the same level of intensity and passion and focus from
Speaker 1: day one. There should not be a lag time for
Speaker 1: alarm needs to be that a kid got killed, and
Speaker 1: we're gonna find who killed a kid, and we're gonna
Speaker 1: bring that person to justice. And it needs to be
Speaker 1: a unified feeling that that is the case. It should
Speaker 1: not be community by community. And to the extent that
Speaker 1: we do that we are a better city. We have
Speaker 1: to maintain that important ethic that our children are hands
Speaker 1: off to anybody, and that anybody who attempts to harm
Speaker 1: our children will suffer extraordinary, dynamic and extreme consequences with
Speaker 1: unified support, That's what I hope that the lesson will be.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to Atlanta Monster. If you've enjoyed it,
Speaker 1: I encourage you to check out our first podcast Up
Speaker 1: and Vanished, a true crime investigation into the disappearance of
Speaker 1: Georgia High school teacher and beauty queen Terat Grinstead. Up
Speaker 1: and Vanish is available now on Apple Podcasts. Atlanta Monster
Speaker 1: is a joint production between How Stuff Works and Tenderfoot TV.
Speaker 1: Original music is by Makeup and Vanity Set. Audio archives
Speaker 1: courtesy of WSB News Film and Video Tape Collection, Brown
Speaker 1: Media Archives, University of Georgia Libraries. For the latest updates,
Speaker 1: please visit Atlanta Monster dot com or follow us on
Speaker 1: social media. If you have any questions from Mere the team,
Speaker 1: please call us at one three eight five six six
Speaker 1: six seven. That's three three five six seven