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Speaker 1: You may start the conversation now what you're the world?

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Speaker 1: Hell those strains. I'm finally out the hold of everything.

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Speaker 1: I'm doing great. They let me out yesterday. You know,

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Speaker 1: it was the craziest thing. And boy, how the incident happened.

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Speaker 1: Boy will be a separate podcast except but you would

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Speaker 1: never believe. Maybe it's a good thing that went down

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Speaker 1: because a lot of role bluffs got out on the

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Speaker 1: way and a lot of rules got over pain. Wayne

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Speaker 1: was out of the hole and I dearly calls with him.

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Speaker 1: We're now back in full swing. They let me out

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Speaker 1: yesterday at the institute. You know, they were weigh out

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Speaker 1: of from listening on to said, yeah, it's going good

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Speaker 1: and all that, you know, and they're telling me they've

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Speaker 1: been following it all and and they explained it. And

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Speaker 1: I sat down with the ward and all three of them,

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Speaker 1: and I explained the whole project what we do sat

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Speaker 1: gen way, he said, because I was played him. I said,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm not trying to talk to me. I said,

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Speaker 1: we're trying to do stuff to pace out on FLA.

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Speaker 1: He said, well, the people you need to get in

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Speaker 1: here and see like t I like, he said, do

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Speaker 1: you get with me and the lawyer and I'll make

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Speaker 1: it happen. They put me back in the same though

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Speaker 1: back it was, but everything they did a complete reset.

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Speaker 1: It had been a month since I last talked to Wayne.

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Speaker 1: Before I could ask him any more questions, it was

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Speaker 1: strictly business. He first set up a conference call with

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Speaker 1: Dwayne and I was up. It was hold on one second.

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Speaker 1: Wayne is on the other lines. Yeah, I've got Dwayne

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Speaker 1: here in Pain, and I want to reiterate the saying

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Speaker 1: they would Wayne on the line when we said to

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Speaker 1: make sure that everybody's off in fact, same page. Nobody

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Speaker 1: speaks for Wayne but Wayne. But I've never delegated chairman

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Speaker 1: to him. All the contexts regarding the interurnacy and the

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Speaker 1: legal affairs on that some Pain understands because that anything

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Speaker 1: regarding to release some documents and uh anything like the

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Speaker 1: case needs to come through Dwayne, because Dwayne is the

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Speaker 1: most knowledge below in this case. And my guys playing

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Speaker 1: to pay. You're the only person to Jim that could

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Speaker 1: actually what we're him to the neighborhoods. We introduce it

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Speaker 1: to the people he's gonna really need to see because

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Speaker 1: they're not going to talk with him otherwise. To to

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Speaker 1: beat the bushes and all see anything regarding my legal

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Speaker 1: case to the way where I'm delegating the things pay

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Speaker 1: regarding the legal case in contact, you go through Jimmy

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Speaker 1: on all of that, make that happen. And then they

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Speaker 1: regarding the documents or whatever, we have to go through

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Speaker 1: Dwayne and says in the institute of people I trust

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Speaker 1: to do that. The podcast was airing now and it

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Speaker 1: seemed like it was making Wayne a little antsy. Next,

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Speaker 1: he set up a conference call with his friend Jimmy.

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Speaker 1: You're gonna have to get mcgimpy. He's gonna have to

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Speaker 1: kick you meet all of these different people in all

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Speaker 1: of that takes money. It is you understand what I'm saying.

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Speaker 1: Like that, Dwayne is gonna do the same thing. When

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Speaker 1: they're gonna be suspects. They're gonna meet people who eye

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Speaker 1: witnesses to these things, but they have to take you

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Speaker 1: into goods. Did you cant going I'm being funny pay

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Speaker 1: but being a young white boy that places, you can't

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Speaker 1: go about yourself with this. They're gonna happen to you. Yes,

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Speaker 1: to you understanding what I'm saying is about He didn't

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Speaker 1: have one minute lesson they're the eyes. Yes, to get

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Speaker 1: it right, they'd be able to tell you know, it

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Speaker 1: didn't happen. That's what, Yes, it did happen that way.

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Speaker 1: Go by the would any of them say unless you

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Speaker 1: hear that for me? They could give you input and all.

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Speaker 1: But basically the ball, the ball stops will be paid.

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Speaker 1: That's what I'm trying to say. Wayne would have never

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Speaker 1: been cans if he was smarter. But the reason Wayne

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Speaker 1: was convicted was because of what he did understand when

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Speaker 1: he went off the way he went on in court. Now,

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Speaker 1: part of that was it was very welcome is at

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Speaker 1: Chinese fault. The first two days that Wayne was testifying,

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Speaker 1: he was cool. They was asking him questions about being

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Speaker 1: gay and all of this different stuff, and he was saying, look, man,

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Speaker 1: I don't know nothing about this stuff. I didn't do this.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't there. And he was cool, calm and collected

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Speaker 1: the dispense. Attorney told him to fight back on the

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Speaker 1: stand and that's what ended up really getting Wayne for

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Speaker 1: getting the guilty verdict. Because people was like, oh, he

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Speaker 1: is a doctor, Dico, Mr. The high person. It was

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Speaker 1: they heard come to me and do that was a

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Speaker 1: new story. Channel five ran he said Wayne Williams of tears,

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Speaker 1: too cool and calm. They were responded to a dirt

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Speaker 1: blue story. God, she told me Wayne, you need to

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Speaker 1: be more forceable. You're looking too calm and cool and

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Speaker 1: very threat quit if I didn't do that. And Atlanta,

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Speaker 1: another party was discovering today a police task force headquarters.

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Speaker 1: There are twenty seven faces on the wall. Twenty six murdered,

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Speaker 1: wasn't missing. We do not know the person or persons

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Speaker 1: that are responsible. Therefore, we do not have the morte

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Speaker 1: from tender for TV and house to forks in Atlanta.

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Speaker 1: Like a lot of other recent victims in Atlanta, Rogers

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Speaker 1: apparently was asphyxiated. Atlanta unlikely to catch the killer unless

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Speaker 1: he keeps on killing. This is a man of monster.

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Speaker 1: The first thing I asked Wayne was about the trial

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Speaker 1: when he lost his cool on the witness stand. Are

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Speaker 1: you're going to find out all of what happened behind

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Speaker 1: the scenes on this? Wayne doesn't agree with this, but

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Speaker 1: this is my theory behind that. I really think that

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Speaker 1: she was a plant. Dwayne is convinced that Wayne's attorney

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Speaker 1: Mary Welcome with some sort of plant, but he had

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Speaker 1: no evidence to back that theory. Even Wayne himself disagreed.

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Speaker 1: I was the one that shows Mary. They didn't choose me.

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Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying that was that was a

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Speaker 1: s furnament And you know, because I had known him

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Speaker 1: before another and be honest with you, I liked as

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Speaker 1: a person, how strong over and that's I didn't live.

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Speaker 1: He was fine. But that thing they do. But I mean,

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Speaker 1: but they didn't bring it to mind, that annoy yet

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Speaker 1: you would find she was fine, fine, It was fine, okay,

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Speaker 1: apparently it was pretty fun and Mary welcome. I asked

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Speaker 1: him about to blow up on the witness stand. This

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Speaker 1: was I think my second day on the witness stand.

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Speaker 1: And that was an article in the paper and in

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Speaker 1: one of the TV stations has been said that I

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Speaker 1: was being too cool and calm on the witness stand.

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Speaker 1: So my attorneys saw that and they were saying that

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Speaker 1: we need to do something we never they were a friend.

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Speaker 1: That was Lewis and jury. I was cutting off, being

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Speaker 1: too calm and colined, whatever the hick that means, and

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Speaker 1: so fid they say, why we need you to be

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Speaker 1: more possible and project yourself And I said, how do

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Speaker 1: I do this? I mean, how do you try to

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Speaker 1: present yourself in such a way because I don't think

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Speaker 1: most people realize there isn't a story book that is

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Speaker 1: the guy to how you respond to the witness that

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Speaker 1: I don't care what we can tell you about what

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Speaker 1: kind of perform as you move to. And I just responded,

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Speaker 1: you know. And and I was so upset that I

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Speaker 1: under sense. And that was a tragic misa me because

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Speaker 1: people thought I exploded and I thought, no, I was

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Speaker 1: well under control. I wasn't. I wasn't upset at district

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Speaker 1: Attorney's over saying I was upset and my laudeous but

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Speaker 1: put me in such a tragic situation. So that's what

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Speaker 1: my frustration was over. So do you need to that

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Speaker 1: played a big role in your conviction, no doubt, no doubt.

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Speaker 1: We we talked for a lot of the journ of

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Speaker 1: us afterwards, and and and I believe it or not,

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Speaker 1: you could actually see the look on their face and

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Speaker 1: I could sense it, you know, it was like they

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Speaker 1: were like, oh my god, you know. And the dad

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Speaker 1: I literally played myself by the stupidity into the teenage

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Speaker 1: hands and and and it was it was the turning

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Speaker 1: point in the trial. We felled out later on, you know,

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Speaker 1: and talking to Wayne and looking at the evidence of

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Speaker 1: this case. The entire case was built on fiber evidence.

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Speaker 1: There were no fingerprints. I mean, there are allegations that

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Speaker 1: some of Wayne's victims were at his house or in

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Speaker 1: his car. You mean not one fingerprint was found in

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Speaker 1: Wayne's house. He was that methodical that he cleaned all

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Speaker 1: of these fingerprints. No neighbors ever said, hey, we saw

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Speaker 1: these little boys going in the Wayne's house prison. Right.

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Speaker 1: If Wayne was not on that bridge, the case would

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Speaker 1: have been solved a different way, or it would still

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Speaker 1: be unsolved. Take that bridge out of the equation, then

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Speaker 1: what do you have? Vincent Hill reiterated several episodes back

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Speaker 1: the overall importance of the bridge fiber evidence aside. If

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Speaker 1: you take the bridge out of the equation, you don't

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Speaker 1: have Wayne to begin with. Let's listen back to Wayne's

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Speaker 1: version of the bridge. In Cent from one of my

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Speaker 1: first calls with him. Alpha doors of Pitch is Alpa

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Speaker 1: bed sized and one that was the first time I

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Speaker 1: a Woyd talk to her about thirty four o'clock. That's

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Speaker 1: what she said, you know, I to audition. I said, well,

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Speaker 1: before the audition, he needs to interview. He tried to

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Speaker 1: persuade the jury he really was out near a bridge

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Speaker 1: that night looking for us Cheryl Johnson, who still remains

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Speaker 1: a mystery to this trial. The state implied he fabricated

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Speaker 1: the story, but Williams didn't much from it, claiming the

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Speaker 1: woman simply gave him a wrong number and wrong address.

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Speaker 1: And I was suspicious because the information she gave me

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Speaker 1: there from evers Cansey. I said always she knows some people,

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Speaker 1: knowing that the stunt calls some names, and she didn't

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Speaker 1: know him for that kind of reason to plan to say, well,

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Speaker 1: why don't you come body apartment were I'm staying with

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Speaker 1: the thread. I think she did about seven futigue. I

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Speaker 1: gotta be a working at an apartment. That's when she

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Speaker 1: gave me the address. I mean you should by that

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Speaker 1: address and TVA and I told people are to see

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Speaker 1: you tomorrow morning. So as a matter of fact, if

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Speaker 1: you look at my statements, I even tell the police

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Speaker 1: said the on CONTs not when I took the address

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Speaker 1: B because I felt it was a fake address. That's

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Speaker 1: why I'm going out to shaking in the first place.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if we should. That's her name. That

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Speaker 1: was just the name that she did. We were doing

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Speaker 1: a public ord a lot of people being fat names

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Speaker 1: and sat address, so I say all the hoopla over

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Speaker 1: Cheryl Johnson's name. You know, she was a plane call.

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Speaker 1: The prosecution claimed that Wayne Williams had fabricated the entire

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Speaker 1: story of Cheryl Johnson, saying she was fake, and now

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Speaker 1: years later, Wayne agrees he was receiving hundreds of calls

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Speaker 1: from music auditions and every so often he get a

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Speaker 1: prank call, this being one of them. But regardless whether

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Speaker 1: or not Ryl Johnson was a prank call, Wayne still

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Speaker 1: claims that she called him. Well, at least somebody did.

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Speaker 1: Over the course of a few weeks, I kept asking

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Speaker 1: him about it, trying to pinpoint an exact timeline for everything,

200
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Speaker 1: and according to Wayne, it starts like this. Do you

201
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Speaker 1: originally did not call me? This was the key point.

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Speaker 1: She called my mother, En left a note, you know,

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Speaker 1: and my mother left her notes and I and this

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Speaker 1: was one of the one if I was leading. Now,

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Speaker 1: according to Wayne, Cheryl Johnson originally did not call him.

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Speaker 1: She called the number on Wayne's flyer, which at the

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Speaker 1: time was his house phone. He wasn't there, so his

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Speaker 1: mother answered. This happened the day before the bridge incident.

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Speaker 1: Anytimes about a call about an autist and I want

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Speaker 1: their UH college to do it, she would just write

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Speaker 1: a post it note you know about I talked to

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Speaker 1: her the next day. My mom was the one who

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Speaker 1: wrote the college. My mom wrote that. So Wayne's mom

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Speaker 1: took the call from Cheryl Johnson the day before the

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Speaker 1: bridge incident and wrote down her information on a slip

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Speaker 1: of paper to give Dwayne. But what exactly did Wayne's

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Speaker 1: mom write on the piece of paper? See this wrote comment,

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Speaker 1: See your mom wrote down her number and then where'd

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Speaker 1: you get the address from? For her pet On the

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Speaker 1: note his mom left him was Sheryl Johnson's name, phone number,

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Speaker 1: and her address. But Wayne did not make contact with

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Speaker 1: her until the next day, around four pm on the

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Speaker 1: same night of the bridge incident. According to Wayne, he

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Speaker 1: didn't call her. She called his house phone again, but

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Speaker 1: this time he was there to answer it. And and

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Speaker 1: the next day, um, she called back about four o'clock.

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Speaker 1: That's when I answered, you know, and I you know,

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Speaker 1: I think if something was wrong with this woman, because

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Speaker 1: how information didn't add up many it didn't add up.

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Speaker 1: This is where things started to get a little confusing.

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Speaker 1: So I'll do my best to break it down, Wayne says.

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Speaker 1: The next day he didn't call Sheryl Johnson back, but

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Speaker 1: she called his house phone again. Even though Wayne had

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Speaker 1: the information to call back himself. With so much emphasis

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Speaker 1: on the note from his mom, it seemed to add

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Speaker 1: for him to point out. So I asked him about

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Speaker 1: it again, just for clarity. No, no, no, she called

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Speaker 1: me pain the phone. I don't know what number she

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Speaker 1: called I called. I did. I did not call her back,

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Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying. I talked to her the after

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Speaker 1: the whole This woman claimed she was on the afternoon

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Speaker 1: of the twenty one, about four o'clock. We talked about

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Speaker 1: maybe five minutes, and when she missed the address, that's

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Speaker 1: when you know she was talking. I gotta be at work.

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Speaker 1: I said, well, we need to do not an audition

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Speaker 1: like dam but an interview. I said, okay, we gotta

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Speaker 1: do an interview before ne York digon. That's when she

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Speaker 1: was done. She got to go back to MTIS and

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Speaker 1: as when I started questioning her on maybe, I said,

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Speaker 1: we ought to know songs, so she didn't know anybody.

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Speaker 1: I mentioned the names that memp my radar went up

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Speaker 1: at that point quite a few people in the music

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Speaker 1: because she didn't know any straight So that was the

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Speaker 1: only time on talk to this one, Will claimed to

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Speaker 1: be shared. He talked to her around four pm that

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Speaker 1: day for about five minutes, and he claimed he was

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00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:14,959
Speaker 1: already a little suspicious of her, but he agreed to

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Speaker 1: meet her the next morning at her apartment anyway, and

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Speaker 1: he said that that phone call was the first and

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Speaker 1: last time he ever talked to Sheryl Johnson. So, your

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Speaker 1: mom got the call from from Cheryl Johnson and then

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Speaker 1: she wrote down the number and the address the back

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Speaker 1: the information, right, okay. So did you have that note

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Speaker 1: with you when you went driving out that night? Right? Right?

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Speaker 1: That's that's the note, right, okay? So you did you

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Speaker 1: take the note? I put my clock boy, I had

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Speaker 1: about eight notes. In other words, we did, or if

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Speaker 1: it hangs about calling you back, okay, I mean After

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Speaker 1: confirming his appointment with Caryl Johnson the next morning, Wayne

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00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:51,040
Speaker 1: left his house later that night to go find her

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Speaker 1: address because he was still convinced she was a fake caller.

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Speaker 1: When he left his house, he brought with him the

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Speaker 1: slip of paper his mother wrote down her phone number

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Speaker 1: and address on. So the night of the incident. What

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Speaker 1: time do you leave your house that night? I left

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00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:06,960
Speaker 1: about six starting to pick up Willie. His first stop

277
00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:09,520
Speaker 1: that night was not to go find RYL. Johnson's address.

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Speaker 1: He left around six thirty pm to go to a

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00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:14,719
Speaker 1: recording studio called Hot Lanta Records to drop off a

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00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:17,600
Speaker 1: bill for photo shoot services. We went straight to College

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00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:21,960
Speaker 1: Park meetn Wear Jackie Gado and the people of Hotlins

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00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:24,000
Speaker 1: bought down about the apple and a little the field

283
00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:26,680
Speaker 1: for the photo services I had done. And we stayed

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Speaker 1: there until about maybe about about an hour and uh

285
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Speaker 1: I left about seven forty five and I had to run.

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Speaker 1: That was forgett it was a Thursday because I had

287
00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:38,840
Speaker 1: to rush back home to get the card of a

288
00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:41,240
Speaker 1: dad because he had a kawana's clothes beat that night

289
00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:43,040
Speaker 1: and he was late into the beat. But I had

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00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:46,080
Speaker 1: to drop Willie when I got backwards about eight, maybe

291
00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:48,480
Speaker 1: a little after eight. I took Willie hon home first

292
00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:50,320
Speaker 1: and put the card of my dad. So after you

293
00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:52,320
Speaker 1: left the hot Landa Records, where did you go after that?

294
00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:56,280
Speaker 1: I went home. It's now around eight pm and he's

295
00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:58,200
Speaker 1: back at his house. You got home at eight, And

296
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Speaker 1: then when you leave the house again about one about

297
00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:06,200
Speaker 1: one that morning. Wayne says that he didn't leave the

298
00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:09,360
Speaker 1: house again until one am that night. In the FBI

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00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:12,120
Speaker 1: case files, Wayne recounts his version of what happened that

300
00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:15,320
Speaker 1: night from that point forward. This is how reads verbat

301
00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:19,600
Speaker 1: him from the FBI documents. When Asta recount his activities

302
00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:23,880
Speaker 1: on the night of Williams stated that he had stopped

303
00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:27,240
Speaker 1: at the Santucci Lounge on West Peachtree to see Wilburt

304
00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:30,320
Speaker 1: Jordan's Williams was attempting to pick up a tape recorder

305
00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:33,120
Speaker 1: which he had loaned him. Williams recalled that he had

306
00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:35,200
Speaker 1: talked to a female who he stated was in her

307
00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:38,920
Speaker 1: forties and who was taking admission. The individual informed Williams

308
00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:41,000
Speaker 1: that Jordan had been in but was not around at

309
00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:43,440
Speaker 1: the time. Williams left a message with her regarding the

310
00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:46,600
Speaker 1: tape recorder and then drove to Smyrder, Georgia an attempt

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Speaker 1: to find Cheryl Johnson's address. I asked Wayne about this.

312
00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:52,400
Speaker 1: You know, when I went out, my intention was to

313
00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:54,480
Speaker 1: go to the club about one thirty that morning, but

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00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:57,120
Speaker 1: I did get to record my attention about silver before

315
00:15:57,280 --> 00:15:59,920
Speaker 1: leer the club. Let me check on this address first,

316
00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:01,720
Speaker 1: and that's when I made the trip up to Cobb

317
00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:04,640
Speaker 1: County and all of his started transpired. But according to

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00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:07,760
Speaker 1: FBI documents, we made to stop first at a club

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00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:10,680
Speaker 1: called San Succi Lounge. Hey, I've got to staking I

320
00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:14,800
Speaker 1: sent you my I double made statement to anybody I

321
00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:17,760
Speaker 1: was going to the club. That was my attention to

322
00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:20,720
Speaker 1: get in recorder. I did go to the club until

323
00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:23,640
Speaker 1: the night of the seven. Wayne said he left his

324
00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:25,640
Speaker 1: house with the intention of going to the club, but

325
00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:27,840
Speaker 1: before he made it there, he decided to go check

326
00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:31,360
Speaker 1: on Sheryl Johnson's address first. Contrary to the FBI reports,

327
00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:33,320
Speaker 1: Wayne says he did not go to the club the

328
00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:35,680
Speaker 1: night of the bridge incident, but instead he went the

329
00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:40,440
Speaker 1: following night, the night of May. This whole thing was confusing,

330
00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:42,400
Speaker 1: so a few days later I asked him about it again.

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Speaker 1: When I did when I when I went on there

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Speaker 1: that night, I went to that, said Susie. First, I

333
00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:51,120
Speaker 1: understand what I'm saying, yep. I went. After I let home,

334
00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:53,440
Speaker 1: I went to the dances at first, all right, I

335
00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:58,240
Speaker 1: asked for uh, what would you all done? Get it

336
00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:01,640
Speaker 1: in the stand, And that was my change. When I'll

337
00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:04,520
Speaker 1: be back later. I left there and I went back

338
00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:07,000
Speaker 1: on I was gonna go home, and I mayn't let

339
00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:10,639
Speaker 1: me check the padress, so I went. I went up

340
00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:12,280
Speaker 1: dead to buy an address. So this would have been

341
00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:17,400
Speaker 1: about I'm cancering about two o'clock something like that. Wayne's

342
00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:20,600
Speaker 1: version of the story had changed. Now he's saying he

343
00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:22,679
Speaker 1: did go to the club that night, the same night

344
00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:25,000
Speaker 1: he was pulled over on the bridge. So which one

345
00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:28,399
Speaker 1: was it? I heard different accounts to right out of

346
00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:33,000
Speaker 1: Wayne's mouth. But one thing that's really important. Being a

347
00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:35,920
Speaker 1: liar doesn't make you a killer. People I all the

348
00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:38,920
Speaker 1: time doesn't make you a killer. Wayne certainly told me

349
00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:42,600
Speaker 1: two completely different stories about the stands Fugi club, So

350
00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:44,399
Speaker 1: a few days later I asked him about it again.

351
00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:48,600
Speaker 1: I'm confused about when you went to the club. One

352
00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:50,240
Speaker 1: time you told me that you went to the club

353
00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:53,240
Speaker 1: before the bridge, and then one time you told me

354
00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:56,440
Speaker 1: that you went the next day. Okay, then let me

355
00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:59,240
Speaker 1: correct that. Okay, So so we'll we'll understand over all

356
00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:02,879
Speaker 1: the confusion over both the club was is that I

357
00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:06,960
Speaker 1: went to the club first and for the bridge incident.

358
00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:09,280
Speaker 1: I went to the club looking for the manager, who

359
00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:11,040
Speaker 1: was a friend of mine. As a matter of fact

360
00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:14,040
Speaker 1: he was a co producer with my music company. I

361
00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:16,920
Speaker 1: did not go to see him again. The FBI and

362
00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:18,879
Speaker 1: the statements driving to turn it around and claim that

363
00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:20,720
Speaker 1: I went to the club in Salt, you know, Johan,

364
00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:22,840
Speaker 1: I never said that. I never saw you know that night.

365
00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:26,240
Speaker 1: What I did was the next night after the bridge incident,

366
00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:28,760
Speaker 1: which would have been the nine of the twenty second,

367
00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:31,400
Speaker 1: I went to the club and Sal you know, Joan,

368
00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:33,280
Speaker 1: I was going out to pick up the cape recorder,

369
00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:36,199
Speaker 1: and so I did see him at the next night.

370
00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:38,520
Speaker 1: Another thing we have pointed out to me in our

371
00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:41,119
Speaker 1: very first conversation about the bridge was something about his

372
00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:44,199
Speaker 1: handwriting and the phone number for RYL. Johnson. You may

373
00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:47,720
Speaker 1: remember this, and the only confusion in the statements was

374
00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:50,919
Speaker 1: over the thing on the telephone number in Cheryl Johnston.

375
00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:54,000
Speaker 1: The number was nine three four Seller Stember six six.

376
00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:56,000
Speaker 1: You'll see when you get my riding. I'm going to

377
00:18:56,080 --> 00:19:00,800
Speaker 1: see it was four three four of the seven six.

378
00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:03,679
Speaker 1: My boys and my eyes looked alike because I closed

379
00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:06,719
Speaker 1: loop them, so the fours and nines were mixed up

380
00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:09,960
Speaker 1: because his handwriting looked the same on the note, No no, no, no,

381
00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:12,840
Speaker 1: you hear everything. The number I wrote was four three

382
00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:16,879
Speaker 1: four seven seven six six. Okay, they're looking at my

383
00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:19,359
Speaker 1: notes in the car, and my rite thought it was

384
00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:22,520
Speaker 1: a man. You understanding what I'm saying, my mines and

385
00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:26,520
Speaker 1: my foes. Look, I can't tell the difference they assumed

386
00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:29,760
Speaker 1: by my writing was nine three four, and that incorrect

387
00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:33,280
Speaker 1: information lasting to this date. So right, that's where the

388
00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:36,040
Speaker 1: confusing came in on it. So when that's why the

389
00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:38,040
Speaker 1: note was stilling part of because the note would have

390
00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:41,080
Speaker 1: shown it was four three fourth not nine three four.

391
00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:44,240
Speaker 1: But Wayne told me earlier that his mother wrote the note,

392
00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:46,040
Speaker 1: the same note he brought with him in the car.

393
00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:48,479
Speaker 1: So your mom got the call from some Cheryl Johnson

394
00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:50,920
Speaker 1: and then she wrote down the number and the address

395
00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:54,480
Speaker 1: like the call back information, right, okay, So did you

396
00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:56,560
Speaker 1: have that note with you when you went driving out

397
00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:59,600
Speaker 1: that night? Right? Right? That's that's the note, right, Okay?

398
00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:02,800
Speaker 1: So you did you take the note I put on

399
00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:06,000
Speaker 1: my clipboard. I had about eight notes on this, So

400
00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:09,560
Speaker 1: how was that possible? Wayne's theory about his handwriting would

401
00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:11,720
Speaker 1: only make sense if he had written the note himself,

402
00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,399
Speaker 1: But he didn't, he said his mom did. Unless there

403
00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:19,200
Speaker 1: was a second note. I had an appointment book looked

404
00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:21,560
Speaker 1: me ahead the time, and and to be honest, which

405
00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:24,600
Speaker 1: I can't remember if I actually had the note from

406
00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:27,720
Speaker 1: Cheryl Johnson whipped me that night, bought a notation on

407
00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:30,800
Speaker 1: my appointment book. I'm pretty sure it was a notation

408
00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:33,600
Speaker 1: on my appointment book that I showed the FBI agent.

409
00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:40,440
Speaker 1: On the note that the FBI agent got, that was

410
00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:45,000
Speaker 1: my mom's handwriting. Before Wayne was stopped on the bridge,

411
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:47,000
Speaker 1: he claimed he had pulled over into a liquor store

412
00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:49,480
Speaker 1: parking lot and used a pay phone an attempt to

413
00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:52,520
Speaker 1: call Cheryl Johnso you called the number, and what happened

414
00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:55,560
Speaker 1: when you called the number one? When when I'm not

415
00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:57,480
Speaker 1: on the number and I'm not on and then the

416
00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:00,920
Speaker 1: verst time I got a you know, I'm um this

417
00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:03,600
Speaker 1: number on this sermons und out and I doubt and

418
00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:06,760
Speaker 1: no the number and then I think was nine and stuff,

419
00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:09,000
Speaker 1: but I can't remember what. I've tried to uphone numbers

420
00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:11,520
Speaker 1: and finally called one number and looked like I whoped

421
00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:15,400
Speaker 1: somebody up and said, well, well master being there. He yeah,

422
00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:18,000
Speaker 1: hum up to down phone like that, not to say

423
00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:20,000
Speaker 1: it was the right number to the person say he eight.

424
00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:21,920
Speaker 1: He had just slammed the phone bounce, So I whoped

425
00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:23,840
Speaker 1: somebody up and I didn't try no more after that.

426
00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:27,480
Speaker 1: This story does match the FBI reports, but I was

427
00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:30,439
Speaker 1: still confused about the handwriting story and the mixed up

428
00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:32,720
Speaker 1: on the phone numbers, so I asked him about it again.

429
00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:35,320
Speaker 1: And so the FBI tried to call the number right

430
00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:37,440
Speaker 1: and then said it didn't work or what no, no,

431
00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:41,520
Speaker 1: no pain. They tried to call three four and now

432
00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:44,800
Speaker 1: or three four like you understanding what I'm saying. Yes,

433
00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:48,840
Speaker 1: So they called the wrong number, right, they tried. Yeah,

434
00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:51,440
Speaker 1: I've never called the nine three four one, and that's them.

435
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:53,840
Speaker 1: I don't know what you know. The number I called

436
00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,240
Speaker 1: was four three four seven s six six, and I

437
00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:58,840
Speaker 1: got a lot of dude, I'm not in service or something.

438
00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:01,040
Speaker 1: I can't remember now. And I tried because if I

439
00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:02,800
Speaker 1: but about a minute, and I tried a couple of

440
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,920
Speaker 1: more combinations at all, and I got one with somebody

441
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:09,800
Speaker 1: else if he is slammed the phone down like that.

442
00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:12,320
Speaker 1: You know, So the number that you had the one

443
00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:13,680
Speaker 1: that they got wrong. Do you think the number that

444
00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:16,760
Speaker 1: you had was her correct number? I don't think any

445
00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:18,840
Speaker 1: of it was correct. That's the point I make it.

446
00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:21,359
Speaker 1: I think she was a focus call from the beginning.

447
00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:27,440
Speaker 1: That's my point. I think the Ryl Johnson was just

448
00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:31,840
Speaker 1: some story he made up really quick too in the morning.

449
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:34,800
Speaker 1: Wayne could have said a hundred of different things besides

450
00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:38,240
Speaker 1: Cheryl Johnson, which police never found, the Ryl Johnson with

451
00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:41,560
Speaker 1: that phone number which didn't exist. Whatever Wayne was doing

452
00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:48,800
Speaker 1: that night, I don't know. Wayne possibly could be hiding something,

453
00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:55,000
Speaker 1: or maybe Wayne did kill Nathaniel Cator and maybe that's

454
00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:58,359
Speaker 1: why he and Jimmy are the only two murders he

455
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:03,399
Speaker 1: was convicted of. But simply changing his story it doesn't

456
00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:06,000
Speaker 1: prove anything as far as you know, why not years

457
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:08,320
Speaker 1: later Wayne said yeah, I lied, here's what I was

458
00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:10,440
Speaker 1: really doing. But at the same time, you could argue

459
00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:13,639
Speaker 1: and say why not years later, because let's be honest,

460
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:15,280
Speaker 1: I don't think Wayne will ever get out of prison.

461
00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:18,359
Speaker 1: Why not years later say yeah, I'm gonna confess to everything,

462
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:22,480
Speaker 1: and here's how I did it. Wayne's entire existence is

463
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:26,000
Speaker 1: built on this. If he confesses, then you know that's

464
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:32,520
Speaker 1: a rap. Wayne Williams will just diminish. If Wayne confessed,

465
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:37,800
Speaker 1: he's Wayne was probably up to no good that night,

466
00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:52,080
Speaker 1: but I don't think it involved uh Nathaniel Cator. I

467
00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:54,320
Speaker 1: don't know that there. You know, there was that defining

468
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:57,359
Speaker 1: moment during that trial. There was one for me and

469
00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,440
Speaker 1: as an observer that came at the very end, and

470
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:02,240
Speaker 1: I still think it is some of the strongest evidence

471
00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:04,760
Speaker 1: that was presented in the trial. And I would tell

472
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:09,440
Speaker 1: you that your audience has never heard of it. The

473
00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:13,480
Speaker 1: blood too of the last four victims were stabbed the

474
00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:17,040
Speaker 1: end of the stream of murders, John Porter and William Barrett.

475
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,280
Speaker 1: There were two blood sains found in the station wagon.

476
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:24,320
Speaker 1: They typed them, neither one on her Wayne's blood, but

477
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 1: they both matched the two victims that had been stabbed,

478
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:31,480
Speaker 1: Porter and Barren. The link was suggested by showing the

479
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,080
Speaker 1: jury this ripped up car seat that came from the

480
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,119
Speaker 1: seventies station wagon driven by Wayne Williams. An expert from

481
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:40,679
Speaker 1: the Georgia Crime Lab told the jury that she had

482
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:43,480
Speaker 1: found that four areas of dried blood on the seat.

483
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:48,000
Speaker 1: Two types were analyzed, Type A and type B. Prosecutors

484
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:51,000
Speaker 1: then had witnesses testify about blood samples taken from the

485
00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:54,600
Speaker 1: bodies of John Porter and William Barrett, two victims found

486
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:58,480
Speaker 1: with stab wounds. Porter had type B, Barrett type A,

487
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:01,720
Speaker 1: the same as the samples found in the suspect's car.

488
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:04,360
Speaker 1: The jury also heard the dried blood in the car

489
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:06,520
Speaker 1: could not be from Williams since he was Type O,

490
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:10,399
Speaker 1: the state obviously suggesting that the bodies of Barrett and

491
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 1: Porter were at one time on that seat. Of course,

492
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:16,359
Speaker 1: the defense wanted the jury to realize the connection is

493
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:19,240
Speaker 1: a shaky one since William's parents and the owners of

494
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:21,920
Speaker 1: the car, and uncle and aunt and thousands of other

495
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,320
Speaker 1: people may have had those blood types and driven in

496
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:26,639
Speaker 1: the car. But if you could get to the blood,

497
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:29,159
Speaker 1: I think if I recall us within six weeks, you

498
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:31,760
Speaker 1: can break it down even further. You get into an

499
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,399
Speaker 1: enzyme factor. They were able to do that. Both of

500
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,399
Speaker 1: those two victims had been stabbed within the last six weeks.

501
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,200
Speaker 1: Both of the two bloodstains in the back seat of

502
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 1: Wayne Williams car. We're fresh enough to be able to

503
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 1: break them down into the enzyme factor both matched Barrett

504
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 1: and Porter. Prosecutors continued to close in with a connection.

505
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:58,040
Speaker 1: The jury, listening carefully and taking notes, heard that both

506
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 1: Porter and Barrett had an enzyme type one. A further

507
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 1: breakdown of their blood samples, the panel then heard that

508
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:08,200
Speaker 1: both stains in the car were enzyme type one. One

509
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:11,639
Speaker 1: of them. According to the testimony in the trial, that

510
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:16,120
Speaker 1: particular blood type an enzyme factor was found in only

511
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 1: seven percent I care remember of seven percent of males

512
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:22,359
Speaker 1: or seven percent of African American males, but of seven

513
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 1: percent the other one was found in only talking percentages.

514
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 1: The witness has said only seven out of every one

515
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 1: people would have Porters type be enzyme type one, and

516
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:37,359
Speaker 1: that twenty four out of every one people would have

517
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:42,200
Speaker 1: Barratts type A enzyme type one. Two victims stabbed two

518
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 1: blood stains in his car, and they both match. It

519
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:51,400
Speaker 1: was physical evidence. That's not really circumstantial evidence. That's physical evidence.

520
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:56,160
Speaker 1: It's not a fingerprint, it's not a murder on a videotape.

521
00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 1: But it was very strong evidence. I thought at the

522
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:11,680
Speaker 1: end of that trial. Throughout my investigation, the case of

523
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:15,040
Speaker 1: Clifford Jones kept popping up. Jones's case stands out in

524
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 1: particular because many people feel there's another viable suspect for

525
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 1: the murder aside from Wayne Williams. I first found Dwayne

526
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:26,200
Speaker 1: Hendricks from a YouTube video of Clifford Jones's brother Emmanuel,

527
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 1: and your brother's name was Clifford Jones. It was one

528
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 1: earlier morning on the people had kidnapped my brother, man

529
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 1: named Jamie Brooks. Horrors hopgood Freda cos these guys helped

530
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:54,320
Speaker 1: my brother captive in a laundron matt right on the

531
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 1: corner how Dole What road. Hours later he was found

532
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,600
Speaker 1: near a dumpster behind them, all strangled, wrapped in plastic.

533
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 1: His brother was inside being beaten and raped all day

534
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,359
Speaker 1: before they actually killed him. In dispose of his body.

535
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:15,920
Speaker 1: An alleged eye witness described the strangling of Jones and

536
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:19,880
Speaker 1: identified the strangler not Wayne Williams, but a man named

537
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,880
Speaker 1: Jamie Brooks. He knewed Wayne Williams didn't kill his brother.

538
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:30,160
Speaker 1: He knew that. And despite all that evidence, the task

539
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,960
Speaker 1: force blamed Clifford Jones murder not on Jamie Brooks, but

540
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 1: on Wayne Williams. The investigators reviewing the case file on

541
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 1: Clifford Jones released to Channel two News under court order

542
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 1: a file containing statements from five eye witnesses who point

543
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 1: to a suspect other than Wayne Williams as the killer

544
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 1: of Jones. Jones's case also stood out to Fiber analyst

545
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:57,800
Speaker 1: Larry Peterson. To Peterson, Jones's case was one of the

546
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 1: only puzzles you couldn't put together. Clifford Jones case became,

547
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 1: I think important in my mind one because it was

548
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:06,080
Speaker 1: the first one I went to and it was the

549
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 1: one that seemed to be the submit the need the

550
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 1: former task force. At this crime scene, one of the

551
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 1: things I did was examined the body. Look around the body,

552
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:19,720
Speaker 1: you know, are their tire prints are there? Shoot prints?

553
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 1: Are is there anything? But from a crime scene standpoint,

554
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 1: and literally there was nothing but the body itself. The

555
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 1: only things I had noticed and collected was over twenty

556
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:35,960
Speaker 1: beige carpet fibers loose in his hair, on his skin,

557
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 1: on his clothes, and I collected him at the crime scene.

558
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 1: That was one of the fiber types that I'm convinced

559
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 1: is important because they were so loose and so many

560
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 1: they had to be tied to how his his body

561
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 1: got there. Whatever sample came in, that was one of

562
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 1: the ones I would always go. It was the green carpet.

563
00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 1: There was some other things, but in his case, I

564
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,480
Speaker 1: always looked for the his page carpet fibers on any

565
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 1: samples submitted for comparison, and actually through the trial they

566
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 1: never matched anything. So that was always kind of a

567
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 1: mystery fiber as to what, then where did they come from?

568
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 1: That had had bugged me through post trial. It always

569
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 1: had bugged me. The thing that I wanted to know

570
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 1: most was I wanted to know everything about what the

571
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 1: evidence meant. So a year after trial, to satisfy his

572
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 1: own professional and scientific curiosity, Very investigated further. You couldn't

573
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:36,720
Speaker 1: reconcile these missing pieces. So they had put these records

574
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 1: into evidence that they had these three different for pharamontmonts

575
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 1: the family was getting using its rentals. This was news

576
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 1: to me. It turns out between seventy one the William

577
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:51,959
Speaker 1: Stanley was in possession of at least six cars at

578
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 1: one time, or another three being rental cars. I was

579
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 1: at Fulton County about a year after the trial, and

580
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 1: I went by the Hill Attorney's office and talked to

581
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 1: Joe Drole, and I said, is there any way if

582
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 1: the defense put those real agreements into evidence, is it

583
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 1: possible I could get copies? So he supplied me with

584
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 1: copies of the real agreements, which include then numbers and

585
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 1: descriptions of the automobiles. So I took that and I

586
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 1: ran it through our Crime Information Center, through the Vehicle

587
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 1: Administration and came up with the fact that those had

588
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 1: been sold as used cars, and I had GBI agents

589
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 1: go to those locations collect trunk liner and floorboard fibers

590
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:36,040
Speaker 1: from those three rental cars. In the meantime, I looked

591
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:38,520
Speaker 1: at the time sequences and when the rental agreements were

592
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:45,600
Speaker 1: and what victims disappeared in those time sequences. Clifford Jones

593
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 1: fell to the same time sequence. So when that fiber

594
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 1: sample came in from the trunk liner and from the floorboard,

595
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 1: the first thing I found was that there beige carpet

596
00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 1: fibers in the floorboard of the rental car that matched

597
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 1: the Clifford. Wow, you know, I had a I had

598
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,800
Speaker 1: a stronger case after the trial than I even did

599
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 1: during the trial. What he found during his investigation was

600
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 1: the base carpet fibers, the ones he could never match

601
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 1: before trial, the ones that link Clifford Jones to a

602
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 1: car in way William's possession. One of those things where

603
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 1: everything built on everything else that came after it. Nothing

604
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 1: ever eliminated him, nothing ever eliminated White. Everything we would

605
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 1: come to kept him in the ballpark. Lewis Layton said

606
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:41,440
Speaker 1: at the beginning of the trial. It's a puzzle and

607
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 1: we're gonna put all the pieces together. And as you

608
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 1: watch that puzzle being filled in, they kind of answered

609
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 1: every question for the jury. So it's a case to

610
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 1: me that its strength was in the totality of all

611
00:32:56,600 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 1: of it. Does he have any defense Lloyds than anybody.

612
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 1: He had a good one for a while, Jack Jack

613
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:08,600
Speaker 1: markin Jack Spit attorney. I think if Jack saw something

614
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 1: here or didn't see something here, that's why he's not

615
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:13,960
Speaker 1: involved anybody. I think everybody's most interested in Wayne. They

616
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:18,480
Speaker 1: realized that he's the right guy, you know. So it's

617
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:21,479
Speaker 1: I don't see much happening on the Wayne Williams right.

618
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 1: The bridge made it, the fibers made it, the blood

619
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 1: made it, the eyewitnesses made it. It was everything. And

620
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 1: they told you what Wayne's life was and how it

621
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 1: fit into all this, of his taking these cars and

622
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 1: driving for hundreds and hundreds of miles, driving in the

623
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 1: late night, early morning hours, picking up young boys, going

624
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:45,840
Speaker 1: to be a music producer, never really producing anything. They

625
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 1: gave the jury a picture of who this guy was.

626
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 1: The story of Wayne Williams is one story because he

627
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 1: was charged and convicted with the murder of adults. That's

628
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:03,200
Speaker 1: one story. But the other story the children, the girls,

629
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 1: the boys who were murdered, who were dumped. How do

630
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,920
Speaker 1: you introduce evidence from another crime that the defendant's not

631
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 1: charged with. Georgia law allows you to bring in what

632
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:18,080
Speaker 1: they call a similar transaction. Was a two part test.

633
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 1: You had proved to a judge that there was some

634
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,840
Speaker 1: evidence linking the defendant to the crime, and there was

635
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 1: some evidence that the crime would show a pattern, a

636
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 1: scheme and a bent of mind of that defendant. Oh

637
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:36,360
Speaker 1: my god, this is what Lewis Layton's going to do

638
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:40,359
Speaker 1: with Wayne Williams. And we're going to have the child

639
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,839
Speaker 1: murder trial. It's not going to be Jimmy Ray Paine

640
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 1: and Nathaniel Cater. I would say that whatever law Louis

641
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:53,279
Speaker 1: Layton used at that time period, it was probably the

642
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:57,360
Speaker 1: most expedient thing to do. If there were enough similarities,

643
00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:00,160
Speaker 1: then just dump it all on one. And that not

644
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 1: criticizing Mr Slayton. It's just saying it appeared at that

645
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 1: time to be the best thing to do. It gave

646
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:13,719
Speaker 1: the public and again it answered a question in the

647
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 1: jury's mind, what about the kids? And they gave I

648
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:25,719
Speaker 1: believe Atlanta the child murder trial. As I said before,

649
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,280
Speaker 1: God was anonymous and I won't seeing him know why witnesses.

650
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 1: It is amazing we convicted him without any eye witnesses

651
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:35,239
Speaker 1: that a single person came forward. And the witnesses that

652
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:38,440
Speaker 1: we had were very shaky at best. They thought they

653
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 1: saw this. They thought what they said that I was

654
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 1: not involved in the trial, but they but again it

655
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:45,800
Speaker 1: was all Harris or Fibers, and today it would be

656
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 1: a very interesting case. Wayne Williams told reporters at a

657
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 1: press conference in June that he didn't know any of

658
00:35:55,560 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 1: the victims on the task force listn't associates, no family.

659
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 1: The state has witnesses that will place the victims with Williams.

660
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:11,360
Speaker 1: The next door neighbor of the Williams did say he

661
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 1: saw Wayne the day the suspect was supposed to be

662
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 1: with victim Larry Rodgers. Two relatives of the victim said

663
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:20,000
Speaker 1: Wayne Williams was seen with Barrett several months before his death.

664
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:23,120
Speaker 1: More damaging testimony today from other witnesses who claimed to

665
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:26,360
Speaker 1: have seen Cater alive on May one. One woman placed

666
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 1: the suspect with Terry Pew, but in April of last year.

667
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:35,239
Speaker 1: Five months after Pew's body was found, Margaret Carter, a

668
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:37,960
Speaker 1: woman who lives in northwest Atlanta, told the jury that

669
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:41,239
Speaker 1: she saw Williams with victim Nathaniel Cater, and this for

670
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 1: Bena Street Park a week before Cater's body was found

671
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 1: in the Chattahoochee River, and the witness also said alongside

672
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 1: the two men was a German shepherd. But the person

673
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:53,240
Speaker 1: who stood out as the most credible witness was this woman,

674
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:56,040
Speaker 1: Nellie Trammell, who placed Wayne Williams in a car with

675
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 1: Larry Rogers, saying the slightly retarded man was slumped over

676
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 1: in the past in your seat. A week later, Roger's

677
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:05,440
Speaker 1: body is found near Simpson Road. A lot of the

678
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:09,960
Speaker 1: witnesses were unrelowed when people got to remember that this

679
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:12,960
Speaker 1: case gave the trial that was a half million dollar

680
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:17,040
Speaker 1: cares reward or information into the risk in conviction of

681
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 1: anyone associated with the Atlantic killing, and an obvious by

682
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:25,000
Speaker 1: the testimony that these motivated when they thought that they

683
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 1: would be able to collect reward for the party. Ken

684
00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:31,520
Speaker 1: Lawson worked in the Task Force headquarters, answering phones and

685
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:34,520
Speaker 1: writing reports, but Lawson was amazed to see Nellie travel

686
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:37,600
Speaker 1: as a witness telling the jury the elderly woman was

687
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 1: almost a regular at Task Force headquarters who would sit

688
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,720
Speaker 1: there for hours knitting. Every time a body was found,

689
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 1: she'd call about it. It got to the point, he

690
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:49,000
Speaker 1: said that recruits would try and pass Nellie's calls off

691
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 1: to each other and the witnesses we're just playing wrong.

692
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:54,960
Speaker 1: Like one guy was an eighty nine year old guy

693
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:58,440
Speaker 1: who could not see an elderly man who may have

694
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:01,280
Speaker 1: been discredited by the defense it's because of poor eyesight,

695
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 1: testified he saw Williams with paying last April, identified me

696
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:08,800
Speaker 1: of poliper was Jimmy Ray pain on banking at Highway

697
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 1: from a business of a quarter a mile away, and

698
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:13,759
Speaker 1: he couldn't even identify me any court rooms, so you know,

699
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:16,560
Speaker 1: he was laughable. Another witness came into the courtroom an

700
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:21,480
Speaker 1: admitted just before testifying, he had just smoke. Another witness

701
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 1: nicknamed Colbury, he's putting Williams with. Larry Rodgers, was an

702
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,960
Speaker 1: admitted drug user and in fact told the jury he

703
00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 1: had smoked marijuana before testifying. His credibility was strained and

704
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:35,319
Speaker 1: he wasn't able to peeck me out on the witness stand,

705
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:37,360
Speaker 1: so he pulls out a piece of paper on his pocket.

706
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:39,440
Speaker 1: Say yeah, but I've seen this guy in the dow

707
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:42,920
Speaker 1: this paper. You know, it was ridiculous, because ridiculous. The

708
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:46,560
Speaker 1: other hand, you did have some witnesses pay or just

709
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:49,520
Speaker 1: playing wrong in their association. With one of those witnesses,

710
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:53,440
Speaker 1: Ken Hynes, but thought he so Joseph Dale better a

711
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:57,200
Speaker 1: court studio that we had on Janior the third. Kent Hinzman,

712
00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 1: a twenty four year old songwriter, says he spent more

713
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,840
Speaker 1: to January third with Williams in this Buckhead recording studio,

714
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:06,520
Speaker 1: and there with Williams was a teenager by the name

715
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:09,760
Speaker 1: of Joseph Joe Joe Bell. I remember Joe Joe because

716
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:12,759
Speaker 1: he came in and he uh, he's sang for fr

717
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 1: you know, he's sing a few tunes and he had

718
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:18,520
Speaker 1: a very good voice, and I was asking Wayne where

719
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:20,279
Speaker 1: was he gonna do it in. Wayne said he was

720
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,279
Speaker 1: going to sign the guy to a contract immediately. And

721
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 1: at the same time you had another state with this

722
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:28,280
Speaker 1: testified that she saw me with movie on that same

723
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:32,399
Speaker 1: day as recording studio system was Hill. A middle aged

724
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 1: white woman, Ruth Warren, told the jury she also saw

725
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 1: Williams with Jeter the day the thirteen year old boy disappeared.

726
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:42,400
Speaker 1: He provided an alibi for me because we were recorded.

727
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,279
Speaker 1: She knew with bucket miles away up from where to

728
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 1: get here, so you had to stay. Witness is complicted

729
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:52,080
Speaker 1: with each other, but the witness could not remember under

730
00:39:52,120 --> 00:40:09,239
Speaker 1: cross examination when she told police about the sighting over

731
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:12,360
Speaker 1: this story to help y'all. Lot of whatever y'all podcast about.

732
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:15,840
Speaker 1: It's cool, man, but this ship won't. What I'm telling y'all. Recently,

733
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:18,319
Speaker 1: a man named Tony came to the office and told

734
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 1: me a story he's only ever told his family. I

735
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:23,800
Speaker 1: ain't making none of this man. This ship real, n

736
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:26,320
Speaker 1: ain't trying to get no nigger in trouble who ain't

737
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:29,800
Speaker 1: shouldn't be talking about or putting no lies on nobody.

738
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 1: It's true facts. Man, My cousin, we was going to

739
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:39,719
Speaker 1: the Lamba Zoo, so we ever rode the bikes over there.

740
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:43,640
Speaker 1: We snuck into zoo a matter of fact, you know

741
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:45,160
Speaker 1: what I'm saying, with to one of the back gates

742
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:47,080
Speaker 1: where had turned one way or the other. You know,

743
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 1: we slid through. So we had chained our bikes up

744
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:52,320
Speaker 1: by side and we came back out to do the

745
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:56,160
Speaker 1: bikes were gone. We were based right does this post?

746
00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying, More like how we're gonna

747
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 1: get back home? I was living there then the project

748
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 1: it was called Greater Homes. So I was walking back

749
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:06,719
Speaker 1: across the park going back to Greater Homes, and out

750
00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:08,360
Speaker 1: of the blue, this guy came off the top of

751
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:12,319
Speaker 1: the hill. He was like, Hey, what's going on? Hey

752
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 1: y'all doing you're you're you're okay? I was like, yeah,

753
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:17,160
Speaker 1: we find said somebody ha stole my bi silk of

754
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:18,440
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. We was over at the

755
00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:20,880
Speaker 1: zoo and then we gotta walk back home. So he

756
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:24,160
Speaker 1: was like you need a ride? Like now, we're good,

757
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:25,880
Speaker 1: we we can walk. You know what I'm Sayings like, well,

758
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:28,440
Speaker 1: my dad on this church is the pastor of this

759
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:31,120
Speaker 1: church over here. It was like a the housing area

760
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:32,799
Speaker 1: and I'm since I had remember that church because had

761
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:35,480
Speaker 1: been over there. So I was like, yeah, I've been

762
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 1: to that church before, you know what I'm saying. So

763
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:39,920
Speaker 1: so he's like, yeah, my dad is a pastor. He

764
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:41,799
Speaker 1: said he'll take your home. Y'all. Ain't got to walk

765
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:43,120
Speaker 1: all the way back to the Greater Home. You know

766
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 1: what I'm saying. I was like, well cool then, so

767
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:47,719
Speaker 1: we was following him back to the church. I think

768
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:51,560
Speaker 1: his dad is on to us a ride. Instead of

769
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 1: him taking us straight across the street to the church,

770
00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:55,759
Speaker 1: where he took up to the street and took us

771
00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:58,040
Speaker 1: up a pathway in the back of the houses that

772
00:41:58,160 --> 00:41:59,879
Speaker 1: we were along the street that led to the church.

773
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:02,480
Speaker 1: That's when things tarted to feel a little weird. Why

774
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 1: are you Why are you taking up this way? I

775
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:07,880
Speaker 1: kind of felt kind officient about while he took up

776
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 1: through this pathway. So by the time we got back

777
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:11,920
Speaker 1: on the open the weather whether the church set off

778
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 1: the street, it's a car Paul back now. So he

779
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 1: was more like, y'all gonna get in the car and

780
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:18,160
Speaker 1: get my dad, and my daddy gonna take y'all know.

781
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 1: So I was like, no, we're just gonna wait till

782
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 1: your dad to come, you know what I'm saying. The

783
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:25,560
Speaker 1: man got anty and aggressive, and Tony knew something wasn't right.

784
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:28,760
Speaker 1: He had to get out of there. So I like, anyway,

785
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 1: I gotta pee, you know what I'm saying. So I

786
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:32,720
Speaker 1: piste on the side of the car. So my cousin

787
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:35,759
Speaker 1: Bobo would like standing by the car beside me, and

788
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:37,400
Speaker 1: he was telling my cup were you're just going to

789
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:39,400
Speaker 1: get in, you know what I'm saying. So he was like, no,

790
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:41,239
Speaker 1: I we ain't gonna get in, just gonna get your dad,

791
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:43,000
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. So he started looking around.

792
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:45,400
Speaker 1: When he stepped back to the car, ga he had

793
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:49,160
Speaker 1: opened the car door. That's where he got aggressive. It's

794
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:51,840
Speaker 1: holding me in a change. It's my old theory was

795
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:56,520
Speaker 1: get us in this car. It turned from my dad's

796
00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:58,719
Speaker 1: and take your holy y'all, get your motherfucker' dad. And

797
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:05,839
Speaker 1: this goddamn call. He had grabbed us in the back

798
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:08,480
Speaker 1: of a church where nobody was around. He tried to

799
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:11,320
Speaker 1: throw us in the car. For him to try and

800
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 1: get two at a time was a tax. So when

801
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:15,719
Speaker 1: we tried to break through, when we started hitting on him,

802
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:18,960
Speaker 1: and he couldn't let one get away and keep one,

803
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:20,960
Speaker 1: and so he had to reach it two people in

804
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 1: two different direction. That's how we broke away. He lost

805
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:28,000
Speaker 1: grill for one lost grip or we split it up,

806
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 1: and so I ran one way and my cousin ran

807
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:33,880
Speaker 1: back the way we came. And I look back and

808
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:35,480
Speaker 1: I'm right, I don't see nobody to hid me so

809
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 1: I'm thinking he probably got my cousin. So I'm running

810
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:40,680
Speaker 1: up street crying, get way up down, you know what

811
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:42,440
Speaker 1: I'm saying. Then all of a sudden, my cousin come out.

812
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:44,719
Speaker 1: He pop up. I SAI out there, you get away,

813
00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:46,279
Speaker 1: he said, shot. I just kipt running. He ain't come

814
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:50,960
Speaker 1: hid me. So I went back to the house. I

815
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:53,160
Speaker 1: was telling my mom's I was like, I just tried

816
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:56,080
Speaker 1: to throw us in the car, tried to kidnap us.

817
00:43:57,120 --> 00:43:58,839
Speaker 1: So I took him where the coach paul. I took

818
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 1: away where he took us to, and the car was gone,

819
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:04,360
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. So the only description I

820
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 1: had then that he kind of favored my brother five

821
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:10,160
Speaker 1: six five seven, you know what I'm saying. With glasses,

822
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:13,359
Speaker 1: Tony told his mother that the dangerous man that tried

823
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 1: to abduct him looks kind of like his own brother,

824
00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:19,520
Speaker 1: a black man with bushy hair and glasses. At first,

825
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:22,959
Speaker 1: the man was nameless, but then Tony sold the news.

826
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:27,759
Speaker 1: In a year or so went back. My mama was

827
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:29,640
Speaker 1: looking at it on the news and I was like,

828
00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 1: that's the same guy who tried to grab both mom.

829
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:35,960
Speaker 1: The guy who did it, I remember his face clearly

830
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:40,160
Speaker 1: everything came together and I saw his face. I knew

831
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:47,480
Speaker 1: that was him Way Williams. And so she was like,

832
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 1: you shure, I said, that's him. Might never get that guy?

833
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:51,200
Speaker 1: Say you remember I told he looked just like Read.

834
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:52,640
Speaker 1: And I said, now, don't he looked like Read? And

835
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:54,239
Speaker 1: she was like, yeah, he do. Favorite in a little

836
00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:56,040
Speaker 1: bit like that said, I never get the face we

837
00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:59,560
Speaker 1: cause we fought with him, and there ain't no mistaken

838
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:02,280
Speaker 1: and no I identity there. You know, I can picture

839
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:04,960
Speaker 1: that whole day clearly. And I looked this man in

840
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:06,600
Speaker 1: his face. You know what I'm saying. This man tried

841
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:08,759
Speaker 1: to do man and and I know he tried to

842
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 1: do it though you know what I'm saying, one like

843
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 1: he was playing him. He got real serious, you know,

844
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:15,920
Speaker 1: So he tried to put us in this car. In hindsight,

845
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:20,680
Speaker 1: Tony realized the man's gestures were actually manipulative and calculated charm. Way,

846
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:23,279
Speaker 1: don't we pray without suspicion. If I would have been

847
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:26,719
Speaker 1: by myself, he probably would have killed me. He might

848
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:28,719
Speaker 1: have took all bites. He might have saw his colm

849
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:31,840
Speaker 1: down and took our bicycles. So he knew that we

850
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:35,080
Speaker 1: were gonna have to walk back. He could have killed me.

851
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:38,759
Speaker 1: People believe different type of ways. You know what I'm saying.

852
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 1: But I know for a fact what he tried to

853
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:42,400
Speaker 1: do to me, and I know how caring in and

854
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:44,640
Speaker 1: conniv here. It ain't never going to trick somebody in

855
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:47,680
Speaker 1: the car with him. To Tony, it all made sense

856
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:50,839
Speaker 1: all the stories about Wayne Williams. He says he saw

857
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:53,840
Speaker 1: it firsthand. He wasn't coming at you like a monster.

858
00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 1: He was coming to you like a friend, you know,

859
00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:00,239
Speaker 1: to get your trust, to get you in there call.

860
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:02,040
Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying. That's why he did what

861
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:04,800
Speaker 1: he did for so long, acause he made no scene

862
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:07,680
Speaker 1: doing what he was doing. It was so normal how

863
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 1: he'll get you in that call with nobody recognize. I've

864
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:14,120
Speaker 1: seen how he tried to do us. You probably need

865
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:17,680
Speaker 1: to been talking to me today. Real told I don't

866
00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:20,440
Speaker 1: say I'm telling real. I ain't got I ain't benefiting

867
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:23,200
Speaker 1: nothing from this. You know what I'm saying. My family

868
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:26,520
Speaker 1: knew about this. I don't talk about this. Nobody ain't

869
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 1: come at you like no no beasts to get your attention.

870
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:32,920
Speaker 1: He put up a hitching the here the babyball back

871
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:35,040
Speaker 1: and throw you in truck and how he worked. Now

872
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:37,520
Speaker 1: they was already from a low end call family problem.

873
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:39,800
Speaker 1: Ain't had too much food in the house, you know

874
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:45,480
Speaker 1: what I'm saying, Anything but swam a canon ball ice cream. Man.

875
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:49,200
Speaker 1: Ain't got no remorse. Man, don't kill you, know what

876
00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:52,280
Speaker 1: I'm saying. He ain't sitting back in prison really crying.

877
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:55,680
Speaker 1: He's innocent. He ain't really fighting that hard to let

878
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:58,719
Speaker 1: folk know he need to be out of prison. He's

879
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:01,160
Speaker 1: just doing his time because they know he killed the

880
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 1: mother church. They just can't prove it he did that. Man,

881
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:08,239
Speaker 1: he's a monster, I know him, master killing a lot

882
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 1: of babies. Know what I'm saying. She's sad man. I

883
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:22,239
Speaker 1: thought it was only fair to share this story with

884
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:25,200
Speaker 1: Wayne to see what he said about it. Tony made

885
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:28,120
Speaker 1: a lot of bold claims, but very convincingly. I asked

886
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:30,920
Speaker 1: Wayne for his take. He Uh, He came into my

887
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:33,560
Speaker 1: office a few days ago and he told me that

888
00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:37,640
Speaker 1: he thinks that you tried to abduct him and his

889
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:41,560
Speaker 1: cousin at the back of a church, A pack of

890
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:43,960
Speaker 1: a what back of a church. He said that the

891
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:47,520
Speaker 1: man said his dad was a pastor at the church.

892
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:53,000
Speaker 1: That's ridiculously you know. That's that's one thing about this tribe.

893
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:56,280
Speaker 1: You've got people who who call forth with these stories

894
00:47:56,520 --> 00:47:59,560
Speaker 1: after the back. And you've got to remember, after my

895
00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:02,040
Speaker 1: picture was blasted all over the news on June the fourth,

896
00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:04,719
Speaker 1: You've had all types of people coming forced and I

897
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:06,920
Speaker 1: know this guy. On My point is why were these

898
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:10,760
Speaker 1: people before? Why were these people when these incidents happened.

899
00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:14,680
Speaker 1: You know at the time that they could not identify anybody. Now,

900
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:16,840
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that somebody may not have tried to

901
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:19,839
Speaker 1: abduct these people at all, but for what I'm saying

902
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:22,320
Speaker 1: is that there's enough signs to togetherness. We know the

903
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:25,840
Speaker 1: data prove that that witness testimony could be painted and

904
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 1: influenced by publicity after the fact. And that's no doubt

905
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:31,560
Speaker 1: what happened in this case. And a lot with a

906
00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:36,760
Speaker 1: lot of these witnesses true, absolutely not. You know, that's

907
00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:39,959
Speaker 1: ridiculous right there. You know, I don't even know these people,

908
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:42,960
Speaker 1: and and and here we are years later. You know,

909
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:45,440
Speaker 1: I hear stories like that. You know, again, we've heard

910
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:47,799
Speaker 1: it all from the years. But my point is, if

911
00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:49,399
Speaker 1: it was true, of these people would have come out

912
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:53,759
Speaker 1: a long time ago. One thing I developed over the

913
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:56,399
Speaker 1: years from from this thing paint, I developed a tough skin.

914
00:48:56,520 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 1: I've heard everything I've heard, even the jokes and everything.

915
00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 1: You know, I've heard it all. But that that doesn't

916
00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:05,160
Speaker 1: phaze my results getting you out, you know, because the

917
00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:08,920
Speaker 1: fact is is that you know, I'm in of what

918
00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:12,360
Speaker 1: happened in Atlanta, Georgia, and that's that's the same focus

919
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:19,560
Speaker 1: that I've got to have right now. But Tony story

920
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:22,319
Speaker 1: wasn't the only one I was told. There was one more.

921
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:25,879
Speaker 1: Don't be his lawyer. You know what I'm saying, Don't

922
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:28,719
Speaker 1: be his savior, Don't be his guard. You know what

923
00:49:28,719 --> 00:49:30,959
Speaker 1: I'm saying, because I know what I've seen my own eyes.

924
00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:35,000
Speaker 1: At this time, I was staying on one side of

925
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:37,080
Speaker 1: the town, the bank Heads side of the town, and

926
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:40,680
Speaker 1: we had moved from Grand Paul and Unstead State there.

927
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:42,799
Speaker 1: So once sign that I went over there to play

928
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:45,440
Speaker 1: with my cousin, they'll make grand problems at Grandpaul playing.

929
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:47,880
Speaker 1: Then when I left, instead of me waiting on the

930
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:50,560
Speaker 1: bus at Nana Avenue, I went up by Atlanta Food

931
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:52,719
Speaker 1: and County Stadium and I was sitting in the bus

932
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:55,520
Speaker 1: stout waiting on the bus. And then a bit blue

933
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:57,680
Speaker 1: Chevrolet pool up stopped in the middle of the street

934
00:49:57,840 --> 00:49:59,279
Speaker 1: and he left the one of that. He's a can

935
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 1: you tell him matter the mother Luther King? He said,

936
00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:03,799
Speaker 1: what what you stayed? I said, when I stay on bank, kid,

937
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:05,680
Speaker 1: But you know what I'm saying, I'm gonna get rid

938
00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:07,040
Speaker 1: of going. He said, I get your ride. That's not

939
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:11,520
Speaker 1: only eating nor ride. I sat back down in the booth,

940
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:13,239
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. So I heard some car TiAl,

941
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:16,640
Speaker 1: so I get back up in lootle. He whipped the

942
00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:18,680
Speaker 1: car around in the middle of the street. You know something,

943
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 1: But this is on the sun in front of food

944
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:23,200
Speaker 1: and Counter stadium. Wasn't no game, so buses run slow,

945
00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:26,080
Speaker 1: ain't halding nobody, you know, moving something like I ain't

946
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:28,080
Speaker 1: no more car coming back. So he w back up

947
00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:30,759
Speaker 1: by the bus stop and right up on the side walk,

948
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:32,640
Speaker 1: you know, saying. So I jump up and I was

949
00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:34,680
Speaker 1: looking at the sketch. I was looking at the sketching

950
00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:36,600
Speaker 1: and back of my mind like this, ain't dude be

951
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:38,200
Speaker 1: on TV, Like you know what I mean. So I

952
00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:40,879
Speaker 1: stood up and looked and at first I did jump back,

953
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:43,000
Speaker 1: like is there for real? I'm looking at him? And

954
00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:45,040
Speaker 1: he stepped out with one leg and the little at

955
00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:46,759
Speaker 1: frow stick up in there. He looked me dead in

956
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:49,480
Speaker 1: the favorite the glasses on. I'm like, bro, I really

957
00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:51,719
Speaker 1: got to be kidding because they already saying they're looking

958
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:53,959
Speaker 1: for you. You know what I'm saying. And you steal

959
00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:57,560
Speaker 1: a lot playing And I had told him I didn't

960
00:50:57,560 --> 00:50:59,480
Speaker 1: eat no ride, and I had told him what Mother

961
00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:01,879
Speaker 1: the King was, and if you're from Atlanta, he didn't

962
00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:04,000
Speaker 1: really have to turn around right now. He could have

963
00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:05,560
Speaker 1: went down to the red light, made it right, and

964
00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:08,920
Speaker 1: went to Mother the King. When he pulled the car around,

965
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:11,160
Speaker 1: he pulled up on the sidewalk like he was trying

966
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:17,400
Speaker 1: to kidnap me. I can't be the judge of what

967
00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:20,239
Speaker 1: Wayne did. But the only thing I can say with

968
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:22,600
Speaker 1: somebody to say he didn't kill out them churus. And

969
00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:25,160
Speaker 1: that's why I'll be standing him saying today, Waite pumped

970
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:30,319
Speaker 1: your brakes. Everybody in the project. I knew they were poked.

971
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:33,480
Speaker 1: So we didn't fight each other like they do now.

972
00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:35,920
Speaker 1: Gangs him. Now, we didn't fight each other like in

973
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:38,640
Speaker 1: front of the project. You poled like me, you got

974
00:51:38,719 --> 00:51:41,440
Speaker 1: no reason to fight. But if we hear something about Wayne,

975
00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:45,520
Speaker 1: we're gonna your mom's gonna call my mom. Door neighbor said, Wayne,

976
00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:48,320
Speaker 1: why don't you trying to get her song? That was

977
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:51,520
Speaker 1: the conversation man. Then, yeah, they were saying Wayne william

978
00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:55,000
Speaker 1: They weren't saying no man in the blue cold Wayne Williams.

979
00:51:56,280 --> 00:51:59,799
Speaker 1: They would call him by their name, so they did.

980
00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:03,759
Speaker 1: It's real to me, I ain't you ain't offer me

981
00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:07,760
Speaker 1: no money, You don't offer me nothing. I'm did telling

982
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:10,239
Speaker 1: you what happened for real. You know what I'm saying.

983
00:52:11,120 --> 00:52:14,879
Speaker 1: We was already as kids, preparing for if he came.

984
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:17,080
Speaker 1: And when he came, you know what I mean. No,

985
00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:19,880
Speaker 1: guys started buying a little pocket knives and stuff, you know,

986
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:22,600
Speaker 1: like get a piece of glass and wrap it up

987
00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:24,560
Speaker 1: in the napkin, put in your pocket, like you know,

988
00:52:24,719 --> 00:52:26,600
Speaker 1: you ever got in trouble or somebody to pull up

989
00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:31,080
Speaker 1: and try to get you, that was your weapon. I

990
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:34,120
Speaker 1: mean you listen, man, listen. I'm not trying to debate

991
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:38,160
Speaker 1: with nobody, never about what I've seen or what happened

992
00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:41,120
Speaker 1: to me. So you know what I'm saying. I don't

993
00:52:41,120 --> 00:52:44,000
Speaker 1: eat nobody runn up for me. Twenty year later saying

994
00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:47,120
Speaker 1: what you see Wayne? You know? But I know what

995
00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:48,880
Speaker 1: I've seen. I don't have to keep on trying to

996
00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:51,719
Speaker 1: rehash it like I'm trying to convince nobody. You know

997
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:54,240
Speaker 1: what I'm saying. I know Wayne, I don't see Waine

998
00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:59,200
Speaker 1: since then. You know, shook Waine hands just to get

999
00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:01,880
Speaker 1: in front of him. Like, bro, you know seeing me

1000
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:11,560
Speaker 1: before eight and nine, I was a young you know,

1001
00:53:11,600 --> 00:53:14,040
Speaker 1: a little young rich dude that doesn't cut my fur dope.

1002
00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:17,239
Speaker 1: Kay went down the road and uh man, they put

1003
00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:18,919
Speaker 1: some dope on. But you know what I'm saying, They said,

1004
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:20,680
Speaker 1: dude up in the love library, but help you out.

1005
00:53:20,719 --> 00:53:23,080
Speaker 1: When I went up there and seeing who it wolves,

1006
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:24,480
Speaker 1: you know it kind of I w was not not

1007
00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:26,239
Speaker 1: came there and work on mine cave. You know what

1008
00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:36,879
Speaker 1: I'm saying, Like that would just me Waine were working

1009
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:39,160
Speaker 1: in what they call the live library. No, wa ain't

1010
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:41,759
Speaker 1: in there. He doesn't kind of trick the folks saying

1011
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:44,440
Speaker 1: like I'm small, let me work in the long library.

1012
00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:46,279
Speaker 1: So when you go in the long library, you got

1013
00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:48,799
Speaker 1: the dope case. We ain't making friend with the dope

1014
00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:51,879
Speaker 1: boys because he needs really protection, you know what I'm saying.

1015
00:53:51,880 --> 00:53:53,880
Speaker 1: Like if I get in Google something of y'all, I

1016
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:55,440
Speaker 1: can get the rest of the folks on my back

1017
00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:57,960
Speaker 1: because everybody got keen people in him. He is like

1018
00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:00,480
Speaker 1: to Pope, people's lawyer. But here get in there with

1019
00:54:00,560 --> 00:54:02,680
Speaker 1: the books and the entertain You see him he reading

1020
00:54:02,719 --> 00:54:05,000
Speaker 1: the book, but you had guys in there who didn't

1021
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:06,360
Speaker 1: how I low your mind? And so I was like,

1022
00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:08,560
Speaker 1: I'm some heart. You know I don't find to go

1023
00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:11,160
Speaker 1: to college. So I started working on my own case.

1024
00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:13,799
Speaker 1: So I'm sitting there. Way ain't just like y'all sitting there,

1025
00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:15,600
Speaker 1: not that it made Wayne. You know, I'm saying, like

1026
00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:19,160
Speaker 1: he kept nobody in my family or got people saying

1027
00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:20,680
Speaker 1: he didn't do it. You know what I'm saying. So

1028
00:54:21,239 --> 00:54:23,200
Speaker 1: so when you see you and said what you're here

1029
00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:24,960
Speaker 1: for a little bro, you know what I'm saying that

1030
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:28,080
Speaker 1: you might not know he ain't William. You'd be like, man,

1031
00:54:28,160 --> 00:54:29,719
Speaker 1: they're playing it some dope on me. You know what

1032
00:54:29,719 --> 00:54:31,680
Speaker 1: I'm saying. That's how you broke when you're they're playing

1033
00:54:31,719 --> 00:54:33,359
Speaker 1: it some dope on me. That wouldn't need my dope.

1034
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:35,759
Speaker 1: They were right up his atlet Oh. Now I can

1035
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:38,320
Speaker 1: work on his case and being my friendship U and

1036
00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:40,919
Speaker 1: I can get people to stop saying I'm gonna killer.

1037
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:44,399
Speaker 1: So with Wayne would do a look over your case

1038
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:47,040
Speaker 1: for you your mean and be like, yeah, we're gonna

1039
00:54:47,040 --> 00:54:50,240
Speaker 1: find this heyper crepy right here and get your case overturned.

1040
00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:52,840
Speaker 1: You're gonna go home. So Wayne was in the hipping

1041
00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:56,440
Speaker 1: people when you and now Wayne is your friend because

1042
00:54:56,520 --> 00:55:03,640
Speaker 1: guess who is your enemate? The system? Everybody isn't ever

1043
00:55:03,760 --> 00:55:05,759
Speaker 1: like when I see him, I'm gonna kill him. And

1044
00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:08,000
Speaker 1: see if you got that one children missing? You got

1045
00:55:08,160 --> 00:55:10,000
Speaker 1: that man? You got thirty four k folks in the

1046
00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:12,920
Speaker 1: cools and their threws and brothers. When I see him,

1047
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:15,040
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna chok him. You know what I'm saying.

1048
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:17,040
Speaker 1: You know, but they couldn't get to him like that,

1049
00:55:17,719 --> 00:55:19,959
Speaker 1: like when you go to the Low Library you sign

1050
00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:22,680
Speaker 1: a piece of paper and they handcuffed and take you up.

1051
00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:24,279
Speaker 1: Then they opened the door and throw you in thew

1052
00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:27,160
Speaker 1: and you're like, she ain't might kill me you up

1053
00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:29,920
Speaker 1: in the library. You know he might be done. Made

1054
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:32,439
Speaker 1: a shank and put it in the Low Library book.

1055
00:55:32,920 --> 00:55:34,680
Speaker 1: So if he got a raise in the in the book,

1056
00:55:34,719 --> 00:55:37,880
Speaker 1: he could jook you with your say, if he's a killer,

1057
00:55:38,640 --> 00:55:41,320
Speaker 1: know what man want to face the story killer not

1058
00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:47,040
Speaker 1: then no, one day do coming out and I want

1059
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:48,759
Speaker 1: to say he was from Capital Home. I remember we're

1060
00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:51,799
Speaker 1: having a small conversation. He was like, I'm gonna get him.

1061
00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:54,600
Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying, I'm gonna get him. I

1062
00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:57,120
Speaker 1: guess the little kid Toba jt or somebody from Capital.

1063
00:55:57,360 --> 00:55:59,480
Speaker 1: He got missing some kind of way. He turned the

1064
00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:03,000
Speaker 1: cone in the library and you can hear the number. Oh, y'all,

1065
00:56:03,239 --> 00:56:07,160
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. When I looked around the

1066
00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:10,719
Speaker 1: way picking the glasses about the ground, you know that

1067
00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:13,959
Speaker 1: tear coming out of his eyes and and I didn't

1068
00:56:13,960 --> 00:56:16,000
Speaker 1: see that, I said, he just it. It was something

1069
00:56:16,080 --> 00:56:17,640
Speaker 1: on his mind. He wanted to get out of like

1070
00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:28,239
Speaker 1: you want to file for Wayne. We didn't ask for

1071
00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:31,320
Speaker 1: this life with folded food stamps in the way. I

1072
00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:33,520
Speaker 1: found the wick in the government cheese and the pile

1073
00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:37,279
Speaker 1: of milk. Like he listen today. We had apartment. You

1074
00:56:37,360 --> 00:56:39,880
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying. The lights was on, but when

1075
00:56:39,920 --> 00:56:41,920
Speaker 1: on furniture, and I went on food, And I'm like,

1076
00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:47,239
Speaker 1: where we're gonna get it from? One thought? One part

1077
00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:50,120
Speaker 1: of history. I don't know. Somebody got to tear me

1078
00:56:50,239 --> 00:56:53,160
Speaker 1: who started first, Hayden? It had to be one or

1079
00:56:53,160 --> 00:56:56,880
Speaker 1: two people. It couldn't have been Jesus wasn't but somebody

1080
00:56:56,920 --> 00:57:00,080
Speaker 1: had to start Hayden hatred and race sealson. They now

1081
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:05,480
Speaker 1: but telling us that in schood until a bunch of

1082
00:57:05,600 --> 00:57:08,840
Speaker 1: us get together and start knocking at the at the

1083
00:57:08,960 --> 00:57:12,160
Speaker 1: dope and have our own Niga man march or Blacks

1084
00:57:12,239 --> 00:57:15,200
Speaker 1: and Whites not no where ass and protests. I don't

1085
00:57:15,200 --> 00:57:17,320
Speaker 1: want you to go to jail for me, like if

1086
00:57:17,360 --> 00:57:21,000
Speaker 1: we don't come together as one. And I said, we

1087
00:57:21,040 --> 00:57:23,760
Speaker 1: can hear the conversation every week if we feel like

1088
00:57:23,800 --> 00:57:26,280
Speaker 1: it will make a difference. But this Dwayne Williams show,

1089
00:57:26,560 --> 00:57:28,240
Speaker 1: You know what I was saying, But we need another

1090
00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:37,280
Speaker 1: show and we want to break the race relationss. If

1091
00:57:37,320 --> 00:57:39,280
Speaker 1: there's one thing I've learned throughout my work on Atlanta,

1092
00:57:39,320 --> 00:57:41,880
Speaker 1: Monster said, no matter how you slice it, this story

1093
00:57:42,360 --> 00:57:45,240
Speaker 1: is bigger than an investigation, bigger than a trial, and

1094
00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:48,800
Speaker 1: bigger than Wayne Williams. This case invokes deep emotions even

1095
00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:51,360
Speaker 1: in people that weren't directly affected by the killings, and

1096
00:57:51,440 --> 00:57:54,360
Speaker 1: from what I've seen, it's inextuably tied to a feeling

1097
00:57:54,400 --> 00:57:57,680
Speaker 1: of social struggle. No matter who committed these crimes, the

1098
00:57:57,760 --> 00:58:01,600
Speaker 1: people of Atlanta, particularly the black community, didn't feel safe.

1099
00:58:01,680 --> 00:58:05,800
Speaker 1: We're sufficiently supported through sensationalized media and heightened pressure. The

1100
00:58:05,920 --> 00:58:08,680
Speaker 1: children that were murdered almost seemed to become a secondary

1101
00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:11,760
Speaker 1: narrative to the story of Wayne Williams. But it's most

1102
00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:14,680
Speaker 1: important to remember how this all started. With Edward Hope

1103
00:58:14,720 --> 00:58:22,600
Speaker 1: Smith on July one, nineteen seventy nine. I think cast

1104
00:58:22,680 --> 00:58:26,120
Speaker 1: such as what you're doing pay are one of the

1105
00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:30,760
Speaker 1: best ways to attack, dismissinformation and trying to get people

1106
00:58:30,800 --> 00:58:32,840
Speaker 1: to open the eyes and see, wait a minute, you

1107
00:58:32,920 --> 00:58:36,000
Speaker 1: know it's trying to wake up. It seeks truth. You're

1108
00:58:36,040 --> 00:58:38,440
Speaker 1: trying to tell a very difficult story, and you've done

1109
00:58:38,480 --> 00:58:40,200
Speaker 1: as best a job as you could tell him. Then,

1110
00:58:40,320 --> 00:58:43,320
Speaker 1: so I guess they speak experts them because that's all

1111
00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:47,480
Speaker 1: paining you tackle to probably one case, the very few

1112
00:58:47,560 --> 00:58:50,480
Speaker 1: of us understand and and and and our command you

1113
00:58:50,560 --> 00:59:03,920
Speaker 1: but trying Who is the Atlanta monster? We don't know,

1114
00:59:05,160 --> 00:59:08,280
Speaker 1: but we really don't know. And I think that that

1115
00:59:08,840 --> 00:59:12,800
Speaker 1: it's clear at this point that was never any single

1116
00:59:13,120 --> 00:59:16,000
Speaker 1: a line of monster. I think that your monster is

1117
00:59:16,080 --> 00:59:20,040
Speaker 1: probably a group of of some of these by supremacists

1118
00:59:20,040 --> 00:59:22,800
Speaker 1: who vother some of these killers. I think your monster

1119
00:59:23,080 --> 00:59:25,600
Speaker 1: is probably people involved in some of these six and

1120
00:59:25,720 --> 00:59:28,520
Speaker 1: drug ranks that no doubt kill some of these victors.

1121
00:59:28,800 --> 00:59:31,000
Speaker 1: And I think your line of monster may well be

1122
00:59:31,600 --> 00:59:34,120
Speaker 1: the streets of Atlanta. In the cases in which to

1123
00:59:34,160 --> 00:59:36,440
Speaker 1: pick us, we're victors the street crack. So I think

1124
00:59:36,480 --> 00:59:38,919
Speaker 1: it's done an Atlanta monster. You probably need to read

1125
00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:41,800
Speaker 1: latel it at line of monsters and put a plural

1126
00:59:41,920 --> 00:59:50,440
Speaker 1: on the end of it. Wayne, did you murder anybody? Hell?

1127
00:59:50,800 --> 00:59:56,400
Speaker 1: I have not killed anybody in my life. Okay, that's

1128
00:59:56,440 --> 00:59:58,320
Speaker 1: the question people ask all the time, and it's a

1129
00:59:58,440 --> 01:00:01,360
Speaker 1: question that I will for people to ask because, let

1130
01:00:01,480 --> 01:00:04,040
Speaker 1: let me tell you something. You know, I can let

1131
01:00:04,120 --> 01:00:07,080
Speaker 1: people in the eye because my soul is arrest with God.

1132
01:00:07,360 --> 01:00:10,240
Speaker 1: I sleep very good at night because we've all done

1133
01:00:10,280 --> 01:00:11,920
Speaker 1: things it's not life that are wrong, if we're not

1134
01:00:12,000 --> 01:00:14,200
Speaker 1: proud of. They are probably billion things that I've done

1135
01:00:14,200 --> 01:00:15,840
Speaker 1: in my life that I could have been arrested for,

1136
01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:18,400
Speaker 1: but killing somebody isn't one of them. And I think

1137
01:00:18,480 --> 01:00:21,720
Speaker 1: anybody who really knows me and knows my character those

1138
01:00:21,920 --> 01:00:24,720
Speaker 1: that this is a situation that was strung stub against me.

1139
01:00:24,840 --> 01:00:30,840
Speaker 1: So I sleep good enough. It's this murder mystery that

1140
01:00:31,240 --> 01:00:36,880
Speaker 1: never ends. As you know, there's just so many questions.

1141
01:00:39,360 --> 01:00:43,040
Speaker 1: We're fascinated by crime stories. This is never going to

1142
01:00:43,120 --> 01:00:48,120
Speaker 1: go away unless someone is arrested found guilty of killing

1143
01:00:48,200 --> 01:00:51,040
Speaker 1: one or two of these children, and somebody else is

1144
01:00:51,120 --> 01:00:54,600
Speaker 1: arrested and found guilty of killing a child. Now it's

1145
01:00:54,680 --> 01:00:56,960
Speaker 1: never going to go away. And even then it won't

1146
01:00:56,960 --> 01:00:59,280
Speaker 1: go away because there will be still be people who say,

1147
01:00:59,840 --> 01:01:04,080
Speaker 1: I don't believe he did it. This is a story

1148
01:01:04,200 --> 01:01:08,760
Speaker 1: that will last longer than the two of us. There

1149
01:01:08,920 --> 01:01:14,240
Speaker 1: is this growing sense that if we don't figure this

1150
01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:18,840
Speaker 1: out now, maybe we never will. You know, is this

1151
01:01:19,040 --> 01:01:23,640
Speaker 1: going to go into some Jack the Ripper style vault

1152
01:01:24,000 --> 01:01:30,440
Speaker 1: of perpetually unsolved mysteries. I don't think it's opening up

1153
01:01:30,480 --> 01:01:33,240
Speaker 1: an old wound, because I think the wound is healed,

1154
01:01:33,360 --> 01:01:35,680
Speaker 1: because many people say Wayne Williams is in jail and

1155
01:01:35,800 --> 01:01:40,120
Speaker 1: that's it. But I think what it's doing is informing

1156
01:01:40,160 --> 01:01:43,240
Speaker 1: a new generation because there are a lot of people

1157
01:01:43,280 --> 01:01:46,479
Speaker 1: have never heard of this case because they weren't born

1158
01:01:46,600 --> 01:01:50,640
Speaker 1: when it happened. And so now it serves two purposes

1159
01:01:51,040 --> 01:01:57,320
Speaker 1: the historical perspective. Two, it also opens up new minds

1160
01:01:57,520 --> 01:02:02,840
Speaker 1: to investigate the case and then three, it reminds young

1161
01:02:02,920 --> 01:02:05,680
Speaker 1: people you can't run footloose and fancy for you all

1162
01:02:05,760 --> 01:02:09,360
Speaker 1: over the city and think someone's not gonna grab you.

1163
01:02:09,840 --> 01:02:14,280
Speaker 1: Although we'll never know why those particular children were taken,

1164
01:02:14,880 --> 01:02:17,600
Speaker 1: and they were poor, they were black, they were in

1165
01:02:17,640 --> 01:02:22,800
Speaker 1: a poor part of town, alone, and right now there's

1166
01:02:22,800 --> 01:02:28,560
Speaker 1: still alone. They are alone, and that no one seems

1167
01:02:28,960 --> 01:02:33,000
Speaker 1: to bother about saying, I really want to know who

1168
01:02:33,160 --> 01:02:37,320
Speaker 1: killed Luby Cheeter, I really want to know what happened.

1169
01:02:38,640 --> 01:02:44,440
Speaker 1: Who's been holding something inside for all these years? For

1170
01:02:44,840 --> 01:02:49,960
Speaker 1: many of these children, The way that they were characterized

1171
01:02:50,080 --> 01:02:52,760
Speaker 1: suggested to people, there's no reason for you to cry

1172
01:02:52,840 --> 01:02:56,680
Speaker 1: for yourself because they don't have to mean anything for you,

1173
01:02:58,000 --> 01:03:00,200
Speaker 1: and you don't have to cry for them and what

1174
01:03:00,360 --> 01:03:05,320
Speaker 1: they lost either, because that wasn't going to amount to

1175
01:03:05,440 --> 01:03:13,440
Speaker 1: anything much, And that to me is not only tragic

1176
01:03:13,520 --> 01:03:18,760
Speaker 1: and upsetting, it is simply untrue. It's not true for anybody.

1177
01:03:21,880 --> 01:03:25,959
Speaker 1: It felt heavy, That's how it felt. It felt sad,

1178
01:03:27,240 --> 01:03:31,240
Speaker 1: and it felt like like there was a very terrible person,

1179
01:03:31,320 --> 01:03:35,720
Speaker 1: indeed a monster who's just devouring black men. This is

1180
01:03:35,800 --> 01:03:39,040
Speaker 1: former Atlanta Mayor becausiem Read. His term in office just

1181
01:03:39,240 --> 01:03:42,400
Speaker 1: ended this year. I was mayor for two thousand nine

1182
01:03:42,800 --> 01:03:47,080
Speaker 1: and twenty days. He remembers the child murders firsthand as

1183
01:03:47,080 --> 01:03:50,080
Speaker 1: a young boy growing up in Atlanta. There needs to

1184
01:03:50,240 --> 01:03:55,400
Speaker 1: be an equality to the importance of life. To the

1185
01:03:55,480 --> 01:03:59,440
Speaker 1: extent that you have really equality of the importance of life,

1186
01:04:00,240 --> 01:04:03,520
Speaker 1: you would have had more attention faster if it were

1187
01:04:03,560 --> 01:04:07,560
Speaker 1: a white child. Any child is harmed, we also have

1188
01:04:07,680 --> 01:04:10,760
Speaker 1: the same level of intensity and passion and focus from

1189
01:04:10,880 --> 01:04:14,960
Speaker 1: day one. There should not be a lag time for

1190
01:04:15,120 --> 01:04:19,720
Speaker 1: alarm needs to be that a kid got killed, and

1191
01:04:19,760 --> 01:04:22,040
Speaker 1: we're gonna find who killed a kid, and we're gonna

1192
01:04:22,080 --> 01:04:25,200
Speaker 1: bring that person to justice. And it needs to be

1193
01:04:25,360 --> 01:04:28,800
Speaker 1: a unified feeling that that is the case. It should

1194
01:04:28,840 --> 01:04:31,760
Speaker 1: not be community by community. And to the extent that

1195
01:04:31,880 --> 01:04:34,960
Speaker 1: we do that we are a better city. We have

1196
01:04:35,200 --> 01:04:39,800
Speaker 1: to maintain that important ethic that our children are hands

1197
01:04:39,840 --> 01:04:44,720
Speaker 1: off to anybody, and that anybody who attempts to harm

1198
01:04:44,800 --> 01:04:50,680
Speaker 1: our children will suffer extraordinary, dynamic and extreme consequences with

1199
01:04:50,960 --> 01:04:54,880
Speaker 1: unified support, That's what I hope that the lesson will be.

1200
01:05:04,800 --> 01:05:07,360
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to Atlanta Monster. If you've enjoyed it,

1201
01:05:07,680 --> 01:05:10,040
Speaker 1: I encourage you to check out our first podcast Up

1202
01:05:10,080 --> 01:05:13,320
Speaker 1: and Vanished, a true crime investigation into the disappearance of

1203
01:05:13,360 --> 01:05:16,920
Speaker 1: Georgia High school teacher and beauty queen Terat Grinstead. Up

1204
01:05:16,960 --> 01:05:24,440
Speaker 1: and Vanish is available now on Apple Podcasts. Atlanta Monster

1205
01:05:24,760 --> 01:05:27,960
Speaker 1: is a joint production between How Stuff Works and Tenderfoot TV.

1206
01:05:28,840 --> 01:05:33,120
Speaker 1: Original music is by Makeup and Vanity Set. Audio archives

1207
01:05:33,320 --> 01:05:37,240
Speaker 1: courtesy of WSB News Film and Video Tape Collection, Brown

1208
01:05:37,360 --> 01:05:41,800
Speaker 1: Media Archives, University of Georgia Libraries. For the latest updates,

1209
01:05:42,080 --> 01:05:45,320
Speaker 1: please visit Atlanta Monster dot com or follow us on

1210
01:05:45,400 --> 01:05:48,400
Speaker 1: social media. If you have any questions from Mere the team,

1211
01:05:48,840 --> 01:05:52,440
Speaker 1: please call us at one three eight five six six

1212
01:05:52,520 --> 01:05:57,240
Speaker 1: six seven. That's three three five six seven