1 00:00:15,276 --> 00:00:26,556 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey, there against the Rules listeners. This is Catherine Girardou. 2 00:00:26,956 --> 00:00:29,796 Speaker 1: I'm one of the producers on the show. We're still 3 00:00:29,796 --> 00:00:33,356 Speaker 1: working on our next season, coming out this fall. In 4 00:00:33,436 --> 00:00:36,876 Speaker 1: the meantime, we'd like to share a conversation between Michael 5 00:00:36,916 --> 00:00:41,116 Speaker 1: Lewis and journalist author Geraldine Brooks about Michael's new book, 6 00:00:41,396 --> 00:00:44,556 Speaker 1: The Premonition. It's all about the experts who saw the 7 00:00:44,556 --> 00:00:48,276 Speaker 1: pandemic coming and did their best to stop it. In 8 00:00:48,316 --> 00:00:51,076 Speaker 1: case you missed it, check your feed. Michael read the 9 00:00:51,116 --> 00:00:55,716 Speaker 1: first chapter here. A few weeks back. Geraldine Brooks covered 10 00:00:55,796 --> 00:00:58,996 Speaker 1: crises in the Mid East, Africa, and the Balkans as 11 00:00:58,996 --> 00:01:02,356 Speaker 1: a foreign correspondent for The Wall Street Journal. She also 12 00:01:02,396 --> 00:01:07,236 Speaker 1: wrote the two thousand and six Pulitzer Prize winning novel March. Here, 13 00:01:07,476 --> 00:01:10,396 Speaker 1: recorded as part of the Live Talk Los Angeles series, 14 00:01:10,876 --> 00:01:18,356 Speaker 1: is her conversation with Michael. Michael, your wonderful nude book. 15 00:01:19,036 --> 00:01:22,436 Speaker 1: On the back cover has just one quote, and it 16 00:01:22,596 --> 00:01:26,276 Speaker 1: says I would read an eight hundred page history of 17 00:01:26,276 --> 00:01:29,796 Speaker 1: the Stapler if he wrote it. John Williams, New York 18 00:01:29,796 --> 00:01:34,276 Speaker 1: Times book Review, Pretty pretty great quote. You haven't yet 19 00:01:34,316 --> 00:01:37,356 Speaker 1: given us the saga of the Stapler, but you have 20 00:01:38,276 --> 00:01:43,356 Speaker 1: had a protean range in your work, from money to politics, 21 00:01:43,516 --> 00:01:49,636 Speaker 1: to sport, to fatherhood to science and data analytics and 22 00:01:49,796 --> 00:01:53,196 Speaker 1: now the pandemic. But all of your other books have 23 00:01:53,316 --> 00:01:57,676 Speaker 1: been looking at events that have already occurred, and this 24 00:01:57,756 --> 00:02:01,076 Speaker 1: is the first time that you've written a book where 25 00:02:01,076 --> 00:02:04,756 Speaker 1: the events were crashing down around us as you wrote. 26 00:02:04,836 --> 00:02:09,956 Speaker 1: What was that like? Fun? Like totally extrating? And I 27 00:02:09,996 --> 00:02:11,636 Speaker 1: know I'm not supposed to say that, but let me 28 00:02:11,676 --> 00:02:14,556 Speaker 1: just say that it required it. The only reason I 29 00:02:14,596 --> 00:02:16,596 Speaker 1: did it is I found it. I took it just 30 00:02:16,676 --> 00:02:19,156 Speaker 1: a different approach than I usually take. And the only 31 00:02:19,156 --> 00:02:21,476 Speaker 1: reason I took a different approach than I usually take 32 00:02:21,836 --> 00:02:23,676 Speaker 1: is I was ready to write a book with a 33 00:02:23,716 --> 00:02:26,476 Speaker 1: different approach when the pandemic happened. And the approach was 34 00:02:27,556 --> 00:02:30,396 Speaker 1: I have this character. He happens to be a college 35 00:02:30,396 --> 00:02:33,196 Speaker 1: football coach, but it doesn't matter. And I haven't written 36 00:02:33,196 --> 00:02:35,636 Speaker 1: the book, but I have this character that I'm so 37 00:02:35,756 --> 00:02:41,156 Speaker 1: interested in. I don't care what happens, that whatever happens happens, 38 00:02:41,436 --> 00:02:44,076 Speaker 1: and I'm going to write a very character driven work 39 00:02:44,076 --> 00:02:46,836 Speaker 1: of nonfiction narrative and let the story is sort of 40 00:02:46,916 --> 00:02:49,636 Speaker 1: unfolds as it happens and whatever it is it is, 41 00:02:49,956 --> 00:02:54,676 Speaker 1: and just trust the character. So the pandemic happens just 42 00:02:54,716 --> 00:02:58,676 Speaker 1: as I'm getting going on that, and I wasn't thinking, oh, 43 00:02:58,236 --> 00:03:02,836 Speaker 1: just port that approach onto this, but I was thinking that, 44 00:03:02,996 --> 00:03:05,316 Speaker 1: like I wrote this book about how the Trump administration 45 00:03:05,356 --> 00:03:07,276 Speaker 1: is going to muck up any kind of management problem 46 00:03:07,356 --> 00:03:09,116 Speaker 1: they have because they don't care about the federal government 47 00:03:09,276 --> 00:03:12,876 Speaker 1: as a management tool. This is the bad thing that happened. 48 00:03:12,876 --> 00:03:14,716 Speaker 1: They have to imagine maybe I should look into it 49 00:03:14,996 --> 00:03:17,916 Speaker 1: and like into my lap drop, I think three of 50 00:03:17,916 --> 00:03:20,396 Speaker 1: the best characters I've ever had. So I thought, and 51 00:03:20,916 --> 00:03:23,676 Speaker 1: that thought that I can just follow these characters and 52 00:03:23,756 --> 00:03:27,956 Speaker 1: let the characters just take me wherever they go, followed 53 00:03:27,956 --> 00:03:30,916 Speaker 1: by another one that the characters have already given me 54 00:03:30,996 --> 00:03:34,916 Speaker 1: my ending. And that was because because around June they 55 00:03:35,036 --> 00:03:38,396 Speaker 1: basically said, it's over here that you know this thing 56 00:03:38,476 --> 00:03:42,196 Speaker 1: is now we failed, and the story of the beginning 57 00:03:42,196 --> 00:03:44,036 Speaker 1: of the pandemic was in a way the story of 58 00:03:44,076 --> 00:03:46,716 Speaker 1: the pandemic for them, and that the end of the 59 00:03:46,756 --> 00:03:51,836 Speaker 1: story for them was there's another one coming. This is one, 60 00:03:51,956 --> 00:03:54,636 Speaker 1: but there's another one coming. So when I had that 61 00:03:54,716 --> 00:03:58,996 Speaker 1: kind of stake in the distance to navigate too and 62 00:03:59,036 --> 00:04:01,516 Speaker 1: I knew that the characters what was going to happen 63 00:04:01,636 --> 00:04:05,116 Speaker 1: from kind of June July on. With the characters, who's 64 00:04:05,116 --> 00:04:08,756 Speaker 1: going to be of kind of peripheral importance to the story. 65 00:04:09,156 --> 00:04:12,236 Speaker 1: It was a matter of some indifference the details, the 66 00:04:12,316 --> 00:04:17,596 Speaker 1: details that followed. How did they drop into a lap? 67 00:04:17,756 --> 00:04:23,876 Speaker 1: Charity Deane, for example, absolutely marvelous character. And you haven't 68 00:04:23,916 --> 00:04:27,396 Speaker 1: often sented a book on a female character. It was 69 00:04:27,436 --> 00:04:29,636 Speaker 1: really interesting to see you do it in this case. 70 00:04:29,916 --> 00:04:32,796 Speaker 1: Can you tell me how you came upon her? So 71 00:04:32,876 --> 00:04:35,796 Speaker 1: before I do, I gotta ask you, Geraldine, can I 72 00:04:35,836 --> 00:04:43,116 Speaker 1: write a woman? Certainly write this one? All right? So 73 00:04:43,236 --> 00:04:45,476 Speaker 1: Charity is the last bit of the story did fall 74 00:04:45,516 --> 00:04:47,556 Speaker 1: into place. When I meet Charity, I know I have 75 00:04:47,636 --> 00:04:50,876 Speaker 1: a book. The other two are very important, are the 76 00:04:50,876 --> 00:04:53,396 Speaker 1: two main characters, and they came in the following order. 77 00:04:54,956 --> 00:04:59,196 Speaker 1: Five years ago I wrote Flashboys, and a San Francisco 78 00:04:59,276 --> 00:05:01,796 Speaker 1: money manager asked me to go to dinner, and I 79 00:05:01,836 --> 00:05:04,556 Speaker 1: thought it was to talk about Flashboys, and because he 80 00:05:04,596 --> 00:05:06,836 Speaker 1: was a friend of the friend, I went and when 81 00:05:06,836 --> 00:05:08,836 Speaker 1: I got there, he kind of grabbed me by the 82 00:05:09,116 --> 00:05:12,236 Speaker 1: dollar and said, I have a character you were going 83 00:05:12,276 --> 00:05:14,316 Speaker 1: to write a book about, which, of course I thought, 84 00:05:14,316 --> 00:05:16,436 Speaker 1: these are false pretenses, and he says, isn't. His name 85 00:05:16,516 --> 00:05:19,756 Speaker 1: is Joe Dici, and Joe Ici is a biochemist and 86 00:05:19,996 --> 00:05:23,876 Speaker 1: kind of like badass virus hunter at UCSF, And so 87 00:05:23,916 --> 00:05:25,596 Speaker 1: he wouldn't let me leave until I said, I'd go 88 00:05:25,676 --> 00:05:27,596 Speaker 1: have a sandwich with Joe Dici. And I went and 89 00:05:27,636 --> 00:05:29,596 Speaker 1: at a sandwich with Joe Dici, and I said, oh 90 00:05:29,676 --> 00:05:32,956 Speaker 1: my god, he is a character. I'd love to write 91 00:05:32,956 --> 00:05:35,996 Speaker 1: about him, but I got a d in biology my 92 00:05:36,036 --> 00:05:38,796 Speaker 1: sophomore year in high school. I have no chops for 93 00:05:38,836 --> 00:05:42,596 Speaker 1: this subject. There's no real connection with anything I've done. 94 00:05:43,116 --> 00:05:44,756 Speaker 1: I would I don't even know how to do it. 95 00:05:44,996 --> 00:05:49,916 Speaker 1: But we started a relationship, and so he would come 96 00:05:49,956 --> 00:05:52,476 Speaker 1: back to him, but he was there already, and he 97 00:05:52,596 --> 00:05:55,396 Speaker 1: ends up being very important. The second thing that happened 98 00:05:55,556 --> 00:05:58,596 Speaker 1: was when our kids got tossed out of school, and 99 00:05:58,676 --> 00:06:00,556 Speaker 1: I realized, this is like something I need to pay 100 00:06:00,556 --> 00:06:05,316 Speaker 1: attention to. I called my jungle guide for the previous book. 101 00:06:05,356 --> 00:06:08,716 Speaker 1: The fifth risk, his name's Max Styre and he should 102 00:06:08,796 --> 00:06:10,756 Speaker 1: be the most famous man in America. But he has 103 00:06:10,836 --> 00:06:14,556 Speaker 1: eight hundred and thirty two Twitter followers, and I can't 104 00:06:14,596 --> 00:06:17,716 Speaker 1: I can't figure it out. But he is engaged in 105 00:06:17,796 --> 00:06:23,156 Speaker 1: this quixotic, passionate quest to fix the federal government from 106 00:06:23,156 --> 00:06:27,236 Speaker 1: outside the federal government. And as a result of this quest, 107 00:06:27,756 --> 00:06:29,676 Speaker 1: he has gotten to know more about the federal government 108 00:06:29,676 --> 00:06:33,156 Speaker 1: than anyone on the planet. And I called him and 109 00:06:33,236 --> 00:06:35,836 Speaker 1: he said, if you're going to write about this, you 110 00:06:35,876 --> 00:06:38,356 Speaker 1: got to talk to my uncle. Who's your uncle. His 111 00:06:38,436 --> 00:06:41,636 Speaker 1: name is Richard Danzig. He was a former US Navy secretary. 112 00:06:41,676 --> 00:06:44,516 Speaker 1: He said, my uncle's just passionate on this subject of pandemics, 113 00:06:44,596 --> 00:06:46,756 Speaker 1: and he knows more about it than anybody. So I 114 00:06:46,796 --> 00:06:49,716 Speaker 1: called him, and Richard Danzig says, no, no, no, no, 115 00:06:49,796 --> 00:06:51,956 Speaker 1: it's not me you need to talk to You need 116 00:06:51,956 --> 00:06:54,916 Speaker 1: to meet the Wolverines. Who the hell are the Wolverines. 117 00:06:55,636 --> 00:06:58,196 Speaker 1: And the Wolverines turn out to be this like secret 118 00:06:58,236 --> 00:07:01,236 Speaker 1: group of seven doctors who've known each other for fifteen years, 119 00:07:01,276 --> 00:07:03,276 Speaker 1: who worked in the White House and are positioned all 120 00:07:03,316 --> 00:07:07,396 Speaker 1: over American Medical society, who turned out to be like 121 00:07:07,476 --> 00:07:09,916 Speaker 1: the single best group of people whose eyes to watch 122 00:07:09,916 --> 00:07:13,316 Speaker 1: the event through. So that gets me to Carter Mesher, 123 00:07:13,356 --> 00:07:16,476 Speaker 1: who's the kind of the Savonne in the Wolverines group. 124 00:07:17,276 --> 00:07:19,196 Speaker 1: And here at this point, it's sort of like maybe 125 00:07:19,236 --> 00:07:22,116 Speaker 1: this is a book like I've got Wolverines, I've got 126 00:07:22,196 --> 00:07:26,436 Speaker 1: Joe Ici, I've got a backstory about how pandemic preparedness 127 00:07:26,516 --> 00:07:32,716 Speaker 1: came about. All this stuff. They all Joe Ici, three wolverines, 128 00:07:33,156 --> 00:07:35,836 Speaker 1: and a former member of the Obama administration who I 129 00:07:35,876 --> 00:07:38,876 Speaker 1: was talking to too, who is helping Gavin Newsom build 130 00:07:38,876 --> 00:07:42,156 Speaker 1: a computer model to analyze what was going on in California. 131 00:07:42,476 --> 00:07:45,956 Speaker 1: All said, you gotta meet this woman named Charity Dean 132 00:07:46,396 --> 00:07:49,636 Speaker 1: because she's she's like, she's the one who knows in 133 00:07:49,636 --> 00:07:53,036 Speaker 1: the whole state of California. So I sent an email 134 00:07:53,276 --> 00:07:56,156 Speaker 1: to the California state government and they wrote back and said, 135 00:07:56,236 --> 00:07:59,316 Speaker 1: Charity Deane has no interest in talking to you. And 136 00:08:00,196 --> 00:08:03,076 Speaker 1: I took that at face value for about three weeks, 137 00:08:03,076 --> 00:08:05,276 Speaker 1: and I thought, like, why wouldn't she want to talk 138 00:08:05,276 --> 00:08:07,716 Speaker 1: to me? You know, that's odd. So I got her 139 00:08:07,716 --> 00:08:09,916 Speaker 1: cell phone number and she's I got on the phone, 140 00:08:09,956 --> 00:08:11,636 Speaker 1: she said, who said, I don't want to talk to you? 141 00:08:12,516 --> 00:08:15,756 Speaker 1: And that that was the beginning of a of a relationship. 142 00:08:15,836 --> 00:08:19,156 Speaker 1: So that's how the characters fell into my lap. And 143 00:08:19,196 --> 00:08:21,636 Speaker 1: then the fact that they all kind of come together 144 00:08:21,676 --> 00:08:24,236 Speaker 1: in some way that was that was Lanya. I didn't 145 00:08:24,236 --> 00:08:27,276 Speaker 1: plan on that, I must say. When I got to 146 00:08:27,356 --> 00:08:31,756 Speaker 1: the Wolverines in the book, I was reminded of Mark Twain, 147 00:08:32,076 --> 00:08:38,076 Speaker 1: who said fiction must be plausible. Truth needn't be that's 148 00:08:38,116 --> 00:08:41,076 Speaker 1: the advantage. That's why I can't write fiction, because I'm 149 00:08:41,156 --> 00:08:44,196 Speaker 1: much better with things that seem Why would you? Why 150 00:08:44,236 --> 00:08:47,636 Speaker 1: would you? Why? You don't need to make it up. 151 00:08:47,716 --> 00:08:50,396 Speaker 1: But tell us a little bit about Charity Deane and 152 00:08:50,476 --> 00:08:56,316 Speaker 1: her struggles. So Charity Dean first, the character first, the 153 00:08:56,396 --> 00:09:00,236 Speaker 1: person she grows up. She's the Taro Westover story, and 154 00:09:00,316 --> 00:09:04,636 Speaker 1: that she grows up in a evangelical rural community that 155 00:09:04,876 --> 00:09:08,876 Speaker 1: raises girls to breed children and nothing else. She's pulled 156 00:09:08,876 --> 00:09:12,396 Speaker 1: out a science classes whenever like evolution comes up. She 157 00:09:12,556 --> 00:09:15,436 Speaker 1: is told she shouldn't go to college by the church elders. 158 00:09:15,476 --> 00:09:18,556 Speaker 1: The church runs the family life. She lives in fear 159 00:09:18,676 --> 00:09:22,756 Speaker 1: of them at the same time, from a very early age, 160 00:09:22,876 --> 00:09:26,996 Speaker 1: partly because of the biblical passages about the plague, partly 161 00:09:27,116 --> 00:09:31,076 Speaker 1: because missionaries come from Africa and talk about diseases in Africa, 162 00:09:31,356 --> 00:09:34,756 Speaker 1: partly just her own curiosity. From like the age at ten, 163 00:09:35,196 --> 00:09:39,276 Speaker 1: she starts to get obsessed with disease, with communicable disease 164 00:09:40,116 --> 00:09:43,116 Speaker 1: on her own, like for fun, reading books about the 165 00:09:43,156 --> 00:09:47,796 Speaker 1: bubonic plague, making like styrofoam models of viruses, and hanging 166 00:09:47,796 --> 00:09:51,316 Speaker 1: in from her ceiling. She's like on a collision course 167 00:09:51,316 --> 00:09:54,956 Speaker 1: with an education in microbiology and has to fight to 168 00:09:55,116 --> 00:09:57,796 Speaker 1: get it. She gets a lot of grief for going 169 00:09:57,836 --> 00:10:00,836 Speaker 1: to college. She finds a scholarship, She grows with real poverty. 170 00:10:01,356 --> 00:10:04,796 Speaker 1: She gets basically excommunicated from the church when she does 171 00:10:04,836 --> 00:10:07,036 Speaker 1: so well in medical school that the husband that the 172 00:10:07,116 --> 00:10:09,676 Speaker 1: church has wanted her to marry says he's not getting 173 00:10:09,756 --> 00:10:12,356 Speaker 1: enough of her attention. So she leaves the husband and 174 00:10:12,396 --> 00:10:16,396 Speaker 1: she continues with the medical degree, and it walks the walk. 175 00:10:16,516 --> 00:10:19,716 Speaker 1: She goes to Africa and gets malaria while she's treating people, 176 00:10:20,156 --> 00:10:23,396 Speaker 1: so she ends up in Santa Barbara in her during 177 00:10:23,396 --> 00:10:27,076 Speaker 1: her residency and discovers this role called the local public 178 00:10:27,116 --> 00:10:31,236 Speaker 1: health officer, which she didn't actually know existed, and neither 179 00:10:31,276 --> 00:10:34,316 Speaker 1: did I, but there was. There's this person who has 180 00:10:34,356 --> 00:10:37,156 Speaker 1: this job to, among other things like you know, making 181 00:10:37,156 --> 00:10:39,916 Speaker 1: sure we don't get sick in restaurants or in swimming pools, 182 00:10:40,436 --> 00:10:45,436 Speaker 1: also control communicable disease, and from that moment she's collided 183 00:10:45,476 --> 00:10:47,396 Speaker 1: with like the things she was put on earth to do. 184 00:10:47,996 --> 00:10:51,596 Speaker 1: And what interested me about her as a character, Like 185 00:10:51,716 --> 00:10:55,036 Speaker 1: what kind of like instantly riveted me was when you 186 00:10:55,076 --> 00:10:59,756 Speaker 1: went to her house, the walls were all decorated with 187 00:10:59,876 --> 00:11:04,436 Speaker 1: various signs, all trying to remind her of basically who 188 00:11:04,476 --> 00:11:07,276 Speaker 1: she needed to be, and all of them one way 189 00:11:07,316 --> 00:11:09,996 Speaker 1: or another. We're telling her you need to be brave person. 190 00:11:10,476 --> 00:11:13,316 Speaker 1: Now that was a message that she had internalized from 191 00:11:13,516 --> 00:11:16,996 Speaker 1: time she was very young. But she has to relearn 192 00:11:17,116 --> 00:11:19,716 Speaker 1: the lesson when she becomes a local public health officer 193 00:11:19,796 --> 00:11:23,396 Speaker 1: because she's constantly in the position of doing things that 194 00:11:23,516 --> 00:11:27,996 Speaker 1: cause controversy political or social, that put her job on 195 00:11:28,036 --> 00:11:31,756 Speaker 1: the line, and she has no backup. The CDC is 196 00:11:31,796 --> 00:11:33,796 Speaker 1: not there to help. In fact, their CDC is often 197 00:11:33,836 --> 00:11:37,836 Speaker 1: there to obstruct. Local politicians got their fingers in the wind. 198 00:11:38,796 --> 00:11:40,676 Speaker 1: And as she said, after a couple of years of 199 00:11:40,716 --> 00:11:44,116 Speaker 1: doing this job, her model, her mantra became no one's 200 00:11:44,156 --> 00:11:48,356 Speaker 1: coming to save me. So but at the character thing 201 00:11:48,396 --> 00:11:51,156 Speaker 1: that was so great and like runs through the book, 202 00:11:51,356 --> 00:11:54,636 Speaker 1: is that it's not that she's fearless. She's full of fear. 203 00:11:55,076 --> 00:11:57,556 Speaker 1: Like she has more fear than eight people put together. 204 00:11:58,196 --> 00:12:01,276 Speaker 1: She fights the fear. It's sort of like this willed bravery. 205 00:12:01,396 --> 00:12:04,036 Speaker 1: She sees this thing as like bravery, as an acquired trait, 206 00:12:04,956 --> 00:12:09,556 Speaker 1: and practices it in disease control. The act of having 207 00:12:09,636 --> 00:12:13,076 Speaker 1: practice it for some long period of time builds these 208 00:12:13,156 --> 00:12:17,716 Speaker 1: muscle memories and these six senses about what to do when. So, 209 00:12:17,836 --> 00:12:20,996 Speaker 1: in a way, at a very local level, is being 210 00:12:21,036 --> 00:12:25,316 Speaker 1: created the kind of character you would want fighting a pandemic. 211 00:12:25,836 --> 00:12:28,876 Speaker 1: But she's she's the low person on the totem pole. 212 00:12:28,916 --> 00:12:33,036 Speaker 1: She says, no status, no one recognizes her. So I 213 00:12:33,036 --> 00:12:35,276 Speaker 1: could kind of go on and on. Why don't I 214 00:12:35,356 --> 00:12:38,116 Speaker 1: hit a pause button right there? On Charity Deane, Right, 215 00:12:38,196 --> 00:12:41,516 Speaker 1: I think you've given us exactly the right level of 216 00:12:41,996 --> 00:12:45,196 Speaker 1: introduction to be intrigued by her that I do want 217 00:12:45,276 --> 00:12:48,636 Speaker 1: you to do the same for Joe DREESI, And I'm 218 00:12:48,636 --> 00:12:50,476 Speaker 1: going to point you at what I would like you 219 00:12:50,596 --> 00:12:59,916 Speaker 1: to tell. Oh, All right, coming back to Jodoreesi. He 220 00:12:59,996 --> 00:13:04,476 Speaker 1: hunts viruses wherever they appear, not just in people, and 221 00:13:05,436 --> 00:13:09,316 Speaker 1: he's been so effective at it. He gets very weird call. 222 00:13:09,396 --> 00:13:11,396 Speaker 1: He calls his phone, the red phone. It says, like 223 00:13:11,436 --> 00:13:14,396 Speaker 1: when there's some problem in the world and someone has 224 00:13:14,396 --> 00:13:16,396 Speaker 1: that no one's figured it out. They usually called the 225 00:13:16,396 --> 00:13:19,396 Speaker 1: red phone, and the call to the Red phone in 226 00:13:19,396 --> 00:13:21,756 Speaker 1: this case took the form of a letter he received 227 00:13:21,796 --> 00:13:24,556 Speaker 1: from a woman who was kind of scantily clad apparently, 228 00:13:24,836 --> 00:13:27,716 Speaker 1: and had a boa constrictor around her neck. And she 229 00:13:27,836 --> 00:13:30,716 Speaker 1: said that Joe Ici that her boa constrictor was named 230 00:13:30,796 --> 00:13:33,996 Speaker 1: mister Larry, and she was now terrified for the life 231 00:13:33,996 --> 00:13:37,636 Speaker 1: of mister Larry because boas everywhere we're dying of some 232 00:13:37,756 --> 00:13:41,436 Speaker 1: strange disease. It's a tribute to jod Erici that he 233 00:13:41,476 --> 00:13:44,716 Speaker 1: didn't just throw the letter away, but it sat on 234 00:13:44,756 --> 00:13:46,716 Speaker 1: his desk for like six months because he thought it 235 00:13:46,756 --> 00:13:49,996 Speaker 1: was so strange. And then finally, like one day when 236 00:13:49,996 --> 00:13:52,196 Speaker 1: he had a moment, he called someone who might know 237 00:13:52,356 --> 00:13:54,316 Speaker 1: is like a veterinarian or so he knew, and said, 238 00:13:54,436 --> 00:13:57,436 Speaker 1: is it true that these boas are dying? And he said, yeah, 239 00:13:57,516 --> 00:14:00,196 Speaker 1: zoos are having problems all over the place. And so 240 00:14:00,396 --> 00:14:05,396 Speaker 1: thus begins Joe Jice's quest to figure out this snake pandemic. 241 00:14:07,316 --> 00:14:09,036 Speaker 1: You can take whatever that what I'm about to do 242 00:14:09,196 --> 00:14:12,156 Speaker 1: say and just poured it right onto human pandemics. But 243 00:14:12,316 --> 00:14:15,436 Speaker 1: he's created a technology which is now evolved since he 244 00:14:15,516 --> 00:14:19,476 Speaker 1: created it to take the genetic material from any living creature, 245 00:14:20,356 --> 00:14:24,516 Speaker 1: separate out what belongs in that creature, its own DNA 246 00:14:24,556 --> 00:14:28,276 Speaker 1: from whatever happened else happens to be inside, like a virus. 247 00:14:29,836 --> 00:14:32,916 Speaker 1: To do this, of course, you need to know the 248 00:14:33,156 --> 00:14:37,036 Speaker 1: genome of the animal. So there is the human genome 249 00:14:37,036 --> 00:14:41,436 Speaker 1: project that's happened, right, The snake genome project actually never happened, 250 00:14:41,836 --> 00:14:44,676 Speaker 1: so he had to create this first. He starts by 251 00:14:44,716 --> 00:14:47,716 Speaker 1: creating the Snake Genome Project and sequencing the genome of 252 00:14:48,916 --> 00:14:52,476 Speaker 1: snakes so he knows what their genetic material is. Then 253 00:14:52,476 --> 00:14:55,076 Speaker 1: he goes to the San Francisco Aquarium and gets some 254 00:14:55,196 --> 00:14:59,516 Speaker 1: boas and some pythons and extracts DNA and then he 255 00:14:59,676 --> 00:15:02,396 Speaker 1: pulls out he puts it on his chip and he finds, 256 00:15:02,436 --> 00:15:05,116 Speaker 1: oh lo, and behold, oh my god, these boas have 257 00:15:05,196 --> 00:15:07,316 Speaker 1: this other thing in them. They both have this other 258 00:15:07,356 --> 00:15:11,236 Speaker 1: thing in them that quite possibly be causing an incredible illness. 259 00:15:11,596 --> 00:15:15,236 Speaker 1: It's an adenovirus. My biology is shaky, but it's a 260 00:15:15,356 --> 00:15:18,876 Speaker 1: virus that he said. It's an ancestor of ebola. It's 261 00:15:18,916 --> 00:15:21,676 Speaker 1: got Ebola in it. It's kind of a curious thing, 262 00:15:22,116 --> 00:15:25,596 Speaker 1: he said. It's actually been detected in dinosaurs, so that 263 00:15:25,596 --> 00:15:29,116 Speaker 1: it's that old a virus, So then he has to 264 00:15:29,156 --> 00:15:32,316 Speaker 1: prove that this is what's killing the boas. And the 265 00:15:32,356 --> 00:15:35,876 Speaker 1: way you prove that a virus as there is creating 266 00:15:35,876 --> 00:15:38,876 Speaker 1: the disease is you get a healthy animal and you 267 00:15:38,956 --> 00:15:43,156 Speaker 1: inject it with the virus. So he distills the virus 268 00:15:43,716 --> 00:15:46,156 Speaker 1: and he goes with three post docs into the San 269 00:15:46,236 --> 00:15:49,596 Speaker 1: Francisco is getting absurd, I know, but this is it 270 00:15:49,596 --> 00:15:53,236 Speaker 1: gets better. Did the San Francisco aquarium When you tell 271 00:15:53,276 --> 00:15:55,676 Speaker 1: the story, sis, do you know how you inject a 272 00:15:55,756 --> 00:15:59,396 Speaker 1: snake with a virus? And I know? He says, well, 273 00:15:59,436 --> 00:16:01,476 Speaker 1: you have to inject them in the heart because the 274 00:16:01,556 --> 00:16:04,516 Speaker 1: veins either don't exist or they're hard to find. And 275 00:16:04,596 --> 00:16:06,636 Speaker 1: the heart. The problem with the snake's heart is it 276 00:16:06,716 --> 00:16:08,876 Speaker 1: moves up and down the body, so you need a 277 00:16:09,116 --> 00:16:12,556 Speaker 1: Doppler radar. You need one post doc holding the Doppler radar, 278 00:16:13,316 --> 00:16:17,156 Speaker 1: other ones holding the snake, which isn't happy, and someone 279 00:16:17,196 --> 00:16:21,716 Speaker 1: else to plunge the needle into the snake's heart. So 280 00:16:21,756 --> 00:16:25,196 Speaker 1: they do this with pythons and with boas, and sure enough, 281 00:16:25,636 --> 00:16:29,196 Speaker 1: the boas get ill and die, just as they're doing 282 00:16:29,236 --> 00:16:34,036 Speaker 1: around the world. But the pythons survive even though they've 283 00:16:34,036 --> 00:16:36,036 Speaker 1: got signs of the virus in them when he first 284 00:16:36,076 --> 00:16:40,276 Speaker 1: tests them. Well, that's where it gets really interesting because 285 00:16:40,396 --> 00:16:42,636 Speaker 1: he can now tell zoo directors when you get a 286 00:16:42,676 --> 00:16:44,396 Speaker 1: new boa, you've got to isolate him and test him 287 00:16:44,436 --> 00:16:48,196 Speaker 1: for this virus. But the question is why are these 288 00:16:48,236 --> 00:16:53,076 Speaker 1: pythons surviving. They're an older species, and he has the 289 00:16:53,196 --> 00:16:56,596 Speaker 1: idea that, oh my god, they're surviving this thing that's 290 00:16:56,716 --> 00:17:01,676 Speaker 1: very like ebola. We've never found the reservoir species of 291 00:17:01,676 --> 00:17:03,756 Speaker 1: ebola in the way that the like covid has a 292 00:17:03,756 --> 00:17:06,316 Speaker 1: reservoir species of bats, and the reservour species of species 293 00:17:06,316 --> 00:17:09,316 Speaker 1: in which the thing replicates it doesn't kill, so it 294 00:17:09,596 --> 00:17:13,076 Speaker 1: happily survives. He says. They've they've they've exported, you know, 295 00:17:13,316 --> 00:17:16,556 Speaker 1: zoos of animals out of Africa and tested them for 296 00:17:16,596 --> 00:17:18,876 Speaker 1: a Bola to see if they can find this species 297 00:17:18,876 --> 00:17:24,636 Speaker 1: that's harboring abola. He says, maybe it's pythons. So any 298 00:17:24,676 --> 00:17:27,196 Speaker 1: other human being would have left their research at the 299 00:17:27,236 --> 00:17:30,636 Speaker 1: point where they find the virus and identify the pandemic. 300 00:17:30,916 --> 00:17:33,356 Speaker 1: Joe like takes it always tastes it like eight steps further, 301 00:17:33,956 --> 00:17:39,236 Speaker 1: he calls the Maximum Security US Army Lab in Maryland 302 00:17:39,596 --> 00:17:44,276 Speaker 1: and says, I want to inject pythons with the live 303 00:17:44,556 --> 00:17:48,476 Speaker 1: ebola virus and see if they survive and then if 304 00:17:48,476 --> 00:17:51,636 Speaker 1: the virus then replicates inside them, because I think maybe 305 00:17:51,676 --> 00:17:56,076 Speaker 1: we've found the reservoir species. And he said, what came back? 306 00:17:56,196 --> 00:17:58,396 Speaker 1: It was like a bizarre request, but it was from 307 00:17:58,396 --> 00:18:01,636 Speaker 1: a MacArthur Genius Award winning person at UCSF, so they 308 00:18:01,676 --> 00:18:04,276 Speaker 1: have to listen to it. They say it takes like 309 00:18:04,636 --> 00:18:08,036 Speaker 1: months for them to get through all their checklist about 310 00:18:08,116 --> 00:18:10,796 Speaker 1: what might go wrong, and he says, like on the checklist, 311 00:18:10,996 --> 00:18:14,116 Speaker 1: it's like what happens is after you have injected the 312 00:18:14,156 --> 00:18:16,876 Speaker 1: snake with the ebolavirus, if you leave the room and 313 00:18:16,956 --> 00:18:18,996 Speaker 1: come back and the cage is open and the snake 314 00:18:19,116 --> 00:18:22,996 Speaker 1: is gone, just says you run like hell, you know 315 00:18:23,396 --> 00:18:26,676 Speaker 1: it's but they finally do it. They finally do it. 316 00:18:26,756 --> 00:18:31,596 Speaker 1: Some incredibly intrepid researcher in Maryland gets live ebola, like 317 00:18:31,676 --> 00:18:35,076 Speaker 1: if he scratches himself, he's a garner, injects it into 318 00:18:35,156 --> 00:18:39,356 Speaker 1: the heart of a live python, and sure enough the 319 00:18:39,436 --> 00:18:42,156 Speaker 1: snake lives, and they're just at the moment they have 320 00:18:42,196 --> 00:18:44,836 Speaker 1: to ask the last question in that snake is the 321 00:18:44,916 --> 00:18:48,476 Speaker 1: bowl of virus replicating, and at just that moment, the 322 00:18:48,556 --> 00:18:51,476 Speaker 1: CDC shut down the research project because they said the 323 00:18:51,556 --> 00:18:55,116 Speaker 1: lab was engaging in unsafe practices, so they never got 324 00:18:55,156 --> 00:18:59,316 Speaker 1: the final answer. And it bothers Joe immensely. And that 325 00:18:59,476 --> 00:19:01,636 Speaker 1: it bothers Joe Emsley tells you a lot about what 326 00:19:01,676 --> 00:19:05,036 Speaker 1: you need to know about Joe. Well, that is the 327 00:19:05,036 --> 00:19:09,236 Speaker 1: perfect segue from the here I love the way your 328 00:19:09,276 --> 00:19:16,756 Speaker 1: mind works to the villains of the piece. We'll get 329 00:19:16,756 --> 00:19:27,556 Speaker 1: back to those villains right after this. Okay, back to 330 00:19:27,596 --> 00:19:31,156 Speaker 1: the interview. Geraldine just asked Michael about the villains in 331 00:19:31,156 --> 00:19:34,996 Speaker 1: the book, and there was one line that I don't 332 00:19:35,116 --> 00:19:38,196 Speaker 1: use highlighter on books. I'm just not that kind of 333 00:19:38,196 --> 00:19:40,476 Speaker 1: a girl. But if I did, I would have run 334 00:19:40,516 --> 00:19:43,836 Speaker 1: a highlighter over it. And that was Lisa Coonan at 335 00:19:43,876 --> 00:19:47,036 Speaker 1: the CDC when she says it had to be so right, 336 00:19:47,276 --> 00:19:51,116 Speaker 1: it was not wrong. Yeah, this leads us into the 337 00:19:51,156 --> 00:19:55,916 Speaker 1: failures of the CDC. Can you talk about that. Yeah, Now, 338 00:19:56,036 --> 00:19:59,916 Speaker 1: Lisa Coonan is a lifelong CDC employee. She's now moved 339 00:19:59,916 --> 00:20:02,556 Speaker 1: on and has got her own consulting firm, but she 340 00:20:02,676 --> 00:20:05,916 Speaker 1: was devoted to the institution. So this is this is 341 00:20:05,916 --> 00:20:08,436 Speaker 1: not a CDC critic who's saying this is just like 342 00:20:08,516 --> 00:20:13,116 Speaker 1: someone who is observed her colleagues. And what I think 343 00:20:13,156 --> 00:20:16,076 Speaker 1: all of my characters find just in the course of 344 00:20:16,116 --> 00:20:20,036 Speaker 1: their leading their lives, is that the institution, whatever it 345 00:20:20,156 --> 00:20:25,196 Speaker 1: once was, has evolved into something that is not equipped 346 00:20:25,636 --> 00:20:30,676 Speaker 1: to fight a disease, to control a disease, because controlling 347 00:20:30,676 --> 00:20:34,316 Speaker 1: a disease is controversial and political, and it also requires 348 00:20:34,316 --> 00:20:38,596 Speaker 1: a kind of clairvoyance that if you wait until the 349 00:20:38,636 --> 00:20:40,996 Speaker 1: first person in the United States has died of COVID 350 00:20:41,196 --> 00:20:43,756 Speaker 1: to announce that COVID's a problem in the United States, 351 00:20:44,596 --> 00:20:49,036 Speaker 1: in that time, the virus has replicated exponentially and it's 352 00:20:49,076 --> 00:20:52,276 Speaker 1: all over the place. You need to act before the 353 00:20:52,556 --> 00:20:58,796 Speaker 1: anybody sees the danger. And that's controversial and requires a 354 00:20:58,876 --> 00:21:02,956 Speaker 1: kind of leadership. And what Charity Deane first and foremost 355 00:21:03,156 --> 00:21:07,316 Speaker 1: discovered was whenever she was in a hot situation where 356 00:21:08,116 --> 00:21:11,196 Speaker 1: there was a decision needed to be made and lives 357 00:21:11,236 --> 00:21:15,316 Speaker 1: were on the line, and it happened over and over 358 00:21:15,396 --> 00:21:18,996 Speaker 1: and over again. The CDC is meant to be her backup. 359 00:21:19,236 --> 00:21:22,756 Speaker 1: They're there to support the three thousand local health officers 360 00:21:22,756 --> 00:21:25,316 Speaker 1: in the country, but the CDC would come on the 361 00:21:25,356 --> 00:21:27,916 Speaker 1: line and basically say in so many words, you're fired 362 00:21:27,916 --> 00:21:30,836 Speaker 1: if this goes wrong. No, no one's ever closed a 363 00:21:30,956 --> 00:21:33,676 Speaker 1: doctor's clinic because they suspect the needles are dirty. And 364 00:21:33,676 --> 00:21:37,676 Speaker 1: that's why everybody in Santa Barbara has HEPC. You know, no, no, 365 00:21:37,956 --> 00:21:42,356 Speaker 1: we won't authorize changes on the campus of UCSB after 366 00:21:42,436 --> 00:21:45,436 Speaker 1: one kid gets meningitis, even though he's about to lose 367 00:21:45,476 --> 00:21:48,916 Speaker 1: his legs, because there's no evidence that what you're proposing works, 368 00:21:48,996 --> 00:21:51,996 Speaker 1: even though it makes a lot of sense. So when 369 00:21:52,036 --> 00:21:54,196 Speaker 1: she said no one's coming to save me, she met 370 00:21:54,196 --> 00:21:58,396 Speaker 1: the CDC and she got to the point with them organically, 371 00:21:58,556 --> 00:22:01,836 Speaker 1: I mean organically, and I said that because when she 372 00:22:01,956 --> 00:22:04,796 Speaker 1: starts her career, the CDC are kind of like gods 373 00:22:04,796 --> 00:22:07,916 Speaker 1: to her. She thinks that that maybe her lifetime ambition 374 00:22:07,996 --> 00:22:10,956 Speaker 1: is to be the head of the Sea DC. But 375 00:22:11,396 --> 00:22:13,636 Speaker 1: over and over she has these encounters that leader to 376 00:22:13,716 --> 00:22:16,436 Speaker 1: the position that she has to ban the CDC from 377 00:22:16,436 --> 00:22:20,636 Speaker 1: her investigations in order to save lives and push their life. 378 00:22:20,676 --> 00:22:23,876 Speaker 1: She says about the CDC, she said, I was just 379 00:22:23,916 --> 00:22:26,276 Speaker 1: so disappointed that the man behind the curtain turned out 380 00:22:26,316 --> 00:22:29,756 Speaker 1: to be such a pansy, and that she just felt 381 00:22:29,756 --> 00:22:32,636 Speaker 1: they were cowardly when they were dealing with these situations. 382 00:22:32,436 --> 00:22:36,196 Speaker 1: It's really tragic because I think if you if you 383 00:22:36,236 --> 00:22:39,596 Speaker 1: look around the wall to where did this go right? 384 00:22:39,996 --> 00:22:43,276 Speaker 1: You look, I look at Australia being Australian, and you 385 00:22:43,316 --> 00:22:48,036 Speaker 1: know there's essentially no COVID in Australia and why because 386 00:22:48,396 --> 00:22:52,916 Speaker 1: the dude who was in charge was trained at the CDC, yes, 387 00:22:53,116 --> 00:22:57,476 Speaker 1: twenty years ago. He goes he comes back to Australia 388 00:22:57,596 --> 00:23:00,756 Speaker 1: and he has a pandemic plan that he learned at 389 00:23:00,756 --> 00:23:04,916 Speaker 1: the CDC, and he jumps into action and he's supported 390 00:23:04,916 --> 00:23:08,956 Speaker 1: by the political leadership to do it, contact tracing, massive testing, 391 00:23:09,756 --> 00:23:13,476 Speaker 1: and they shut the disease down in this ja. Yeah. No, 392 00:23:13,756 --> 00:23:18,436 Speaker 1: So the ironies get richer and thicker the more the 393 00:23:18,516 --> 00:23:22,676 Speaker 1: more of this story. You know, America eventually especially invented 394 00:23:22,716 --> 00:23:25,836 Speaker 1: the strategies being used around the world, and the CDC 395 00:23:26,076 --> 00:23:30,316 Speaker 1: exported them and then didn't embrace them itself. To finish 396 00:23:30,356 --> 00:23:33,596 Speaker 1: the punchline on almost all of Charity Deane's local health 397 00:23:33,636 --> 00:23:38,316 Speaker 1: officers stories is that a year after she does all 398 00:23:38,356 --> 00:23:40,436 Speaker 1: the things she ends up doing to shut down a 399 00:23:40,756 --> 00:23:45,156 Speaker 1: meningitis outbreak on the UCSB campus, she gets a call 400 00:23:45,316 --> 00:23:49,836 Speaker 1: from a college health officer in another state saying, we 401 00:23:49,876 --> 00:23:52,476 Speaker 1: are having an Vanegitius outbreak, and the CDC said to 402 00:23:52,516 --> 00:23:55,196 Speaker 1: call you because you know what to do. And the 403 00:23:55,316 --> 00:24:00,956 Speaker 1: problem was that clearly the institution had changed in a direction, 404 00:24:01,036 --> 00:24:06,156 Speaker 1: and the direction was, let's avoid political controversy. We're on 405 00:24:06,196 --> 00:24:09,396 Speaker 1: a short leash with the White House, and let's stake 406 00:24:09,396 --> 00:24:12,556 Speaker 1: our reputation on the quality of our academic work. So 407 00:24:12,676 --> 00:24:15,916 Speaker 1: everything has to be right. So the problem is is 408 00:24:16,436 --> 00:24:19,676 Speaker 1: that that's good for academic work, but if you were 409 00:24:19,716 --> 00:24:22,356 Speaker 1: fighting and disease in real time, you can't wait for 410 00:24:22,356 --> 00:24:25,036 Speaker 1: the data. If you wait for the data, it's over. 411 00:24:25,676 --> 00:24:28,396 Speaker 1: And so that cover of we're perfect, we don't make 412 00:24:28,436 --> 00:24:31,756 Speaker 1: mistakes ends up being excused not to do anything. And 413 00:24:31,836 --> 00:24:35,716 Speaker 1: what happened in this country was one of my main characters. 414 00:24:35,836 --> 00:24:39,876 Speaker 1: Carter Mesher on Deane January the twentieth establishes to the 415 00:24:39,916 --> 00:24:43,476 Speaker 1: satisfaction of experts, and he's probably not the only one, 416 00:24:43,516 --> 00:24:46,476 Speaker 1: but it's kind of amazing he did it that the 417 00:24:46,556 --> 00:24:50,436 Speaker 1: transmissibility and the lethality of this virus in Wuhan, with 418 00:24:50,476 --> 00:24:53,996 Speaker 1: its implications for the United States population. But it's not 419 00:24:54,156 --> 00:24:56,636 Speaker 1: till a month later on February twenty third, that the 420 00:24:56,676 --> 00:25:00,996 Speaker 1: CDC acknowledges it, and in those five weeks a lot 421 00:25:00,996 --> 00:25:03,996 Speaker 1: of lives were lost down the road because of that inaction, 422 00:25:03,996 --> 00:25:05,996 Speaker 1: that inability to stand up and start to explain to 423 00:25:06,036 --> 00:25:10,076 Speaker 1: the people what's going on. So it's a messy story 424 00:25:10,156 --> 00:25:14,596 Speaker 1: because you got the CDC's natural inclinations compounded by Donald Trump. 425 00:25:14,676 --> 00:25:16,756 Speaker 1: It's not just you know that they do have a 426 00:25:16,756 --> 00:25:19,756 Speaker 1: bit of an excuse, but it's not it's not a 427 00:25:19,796 --> 00:25:25,036 Speaker 1: good enough excuse. One of the most jaw dropping examples 428 00:25:25,716 --> 00:25:29,516 Speaker 1: is the people who were evacuated from Moohan. The Americans 429 00:25:29,516 --> 00:25:36,676 Speaker 1: who are evacuated some unbeliefs. Unbelievable, right, I mean, and 430 00:25:37,196 --> 00:25:40,796 Speaker 1: I left out stuff, and it's also damning. So it's 431 00:25:40,836 --> 00:25:46,076 Speaker 1: so Americans are repatriated. They're repatriated to Omaha, Nebraska, which 432 00:25:46,076 --> 00:25:50,156 Speaker 1: sounds strange, except there's this federal medical facility that specializes 433 00:25:50,156 --> 00:25:54,156 Speaker 1: in handling weird and terrifying illness. So if you get 434 00:25:54,196 --> 00:25:56,236 Speaker 1: a bowl, there's a fair chance that's where you land. 435 00:25:56,876 --> 00:25:58,516 Speaker 1: So there, I don't have any of them, adia of 436 00:25:58,596 --> 00:26:00,316 Speaker 1: them or whatever it was. They were a bunch of them, 437 00:26:00,556 --> 00:26:04,676 Speaker 1: and they're housed in the National Guard barracks near this facility. 438 00:26:05,196 --> 00:26:08,836 Speaker 1: The man who runs this facility is a wolverine, is 439 00:26:08,836 --> 00:26:11,756 Speaker 1: one of the wolverines. His name is James Lawler, and 440 00:26:12,396 --> 00:26:17,476 Speaker 1: Lawler reasonably wants to test these people for COVID. He says, 441 00:26:17,476 --> 00:26:20,276 Speaker 1: there's like no chance there's not COVID in there, and 442 00:26:20,556 --> 00:26:24,756 Speaker 1: reasonably all of these Americans want to be tested for COVID. 443 00:26:25,676 --> 00:26:28,956 Speaker 1: But Lawler has to ask the CDC. CDC has the test, 444 00:26:29,716 --> 00:26:32,236 Speaker 1: the test that they're going to distribute far and wide 445 00:26:32,356 --> 00:26:34,916 Speaker 1: is doesn't work. But you could send samples to Atlanta 446 00:26:34,956 --> 00:26:37,436 Speaker 1: and they could give you an answer. So he asked 447 00:26:37,596 --> 00:26:40,476 Speaker 1: the nearest CDC guy, who bounces it all the way 448 00:26:40,556 --> 00:26:44,116 Speaker 1: up the chain of command. This request to Robert Redfield himself, 449 00:26:44,196 --> 00:26:47,956 Speaker 1: director of the CDC, who apparently goes ballistic and says, 450 00:26:48,076 --> 00:26:51,156 Speaker 1: under no circumstances are they to test those people? And 451 00:26:51,276 --> 00:26:54,036 Speaker 1: Lawler says, what do you mean, like why? And the 452 00:26:54,116 --> 00:26:57,596 Speaker 1: answer he gets is, if you test them, it would 453 00:26:57,636 --> 00:27:03,716 Speaker 1: be performing an experiment on imprisoned persons. Now, that's clearly 454 00:27:03,756 --> 00:27:07,716 Speaker 1: not the reason they didn't test them. There were clearly 455 00:27:07,836 --> 00:27:10,836 Speaker 1: must have been other motives and whether it was uncertainty 456 00:27:10,836 --> 00:27:14,436 Speaker 1: about their test, a desire not to find the disease, 457 00:27:14,516 --> 00:27:16,796 Speaker 1: because if you found it, it it would just alarm people 458 00:27:17,476 --> 00:27:21,356 Speaker 1: who knows, like why. But the fact they don't do 459 00:27:21,396 --> 00:27:24,076 Speaker 1: it is of a piece with the rest of the strategy. 460 00:27:24,116 --> 00:27:27,836 Speaker 1: I mean people flying in from China back from other 461 00:27:27,876 --> 00:27:30,156 Speaker 1: parts of China to a whole bunch of other airports. 462 00:27:30,156 --> 00:27:32,636 Speaker 1: And these were just eighty people. These were thousands of 463 00:27:32,676 --> 00:27:36,956 Speaker 1: people go through Lax and Atlanta or Chicago or wherever 464 00:27:36,996 --> 00:27:42,876 Speaker 1: they land, and they're supposed to be checked up on, followed, 465 00:27:43,516 --> 00:27:47,636 Speaker 1: tested and traced when the local public health officials go 466 00:27:47,676 --> 00:27:50,876 Speaker 1: to the cd the CDC's managing the events at the airport. 467 00:27:51,396 --> 00:27:54,396 Speaker 1: When they go to the CDC to ask like, where's 468 00:27:54,476 --> 00:27:58,076 Speaker 1: Joe Smith, you know who just left Lax they have 469 00:27:58,236 --> 00:28:02,716 Speaker 1: listed as his residents Lax, they can't find any of 470 00:28:02,756 --> 00:28:07,796 Speaker 1: these people. So it was I'm not sure how differently 471 00:28:08,156 --> 00:28:12,636 Speaker 1: you would behave if you were trying secretly to spread 472 00:28:12,676 --> 00:28:16,116 Speaker 1: the disease in the country. Then the CDC actually behaved, 473 00:28:16,276 --> 00:28:17,956 Speaker 1: Which is not to say that's what they were doing, 474 00:28:18,316 --> 00:28:20,316 Speaker 1: but you kind of do something like this, you'd say, 475 00:28:20,356 --> 00:28:22,956 Speaker 1: all we have a test for it, and nobody else 476 00:28:22,996 --> 00:28:25,996 Speaker 1: can test even though we've got the most microbiology labs 477 00:28:26,036 --> 00:28:29,516 Speaker 1: that can spin up into COVID testing centers in three days. No, 478 00:28:29,636 --> 00:28:31,356 Speaker 1: you're not allowed to do that. You have to use 479 00:28:31,396 --> 00:28:34,636 Speaker 1: our test. It's coming, it's coming. Oops, it's broken. Nope, 480 00:28:34,636 --> 00:28:37,116 Speaker 1: we're gonna fix it up. It's coming, it's coming up. 481 00:28:37,196 --> 00:28:41,796 Speaker 1: It's broken again. Don't wear masks. Yeah. Meanwhile, don't wear masks, 482 00:28:41,796 --> 00:28:45,076 Speaker 1: but really clean all those surfaces. It's like someone from 483 00:28:45,356 --> 00:28:48,396 Speaker 1: the various cleaning products companies went to them said, man, 484 00:28:48,476 --> 00:28:51,556 Speaker 1: let's make sure that that everybody knows it's scary to 485 00:28:51,556 --> 00:28:55,036 Speaker 1: touch the counter that fomites, but which turned out to 486 00:28:55,076 --> 00:29:00,276 Speaker 1: be not a thing. So it's it's the bad news bears. 487 00:29:00,796 --> 00:29:04,436 Speaker 1: So theyre great irony about all this and that institution, 488 00:29:05,036 --> 00:29:07,516 Speaker 1: which I'm sure is filled with great people. Right, it's 489 00:29:07,516 --> 00:29:11,476 Speaker 1: a case of institutions screwing up. But is that they 490 00:29:11,476 --> 00:29:15,476 Speaker 1: were so obsessed with preserving their reputation that they lost 491 00:29:15,516 --> 00:29:30,316 Speaker 1: their reputation. We'll be back right after this break. So 492 00:29:31,116 --> 00:29:32,836 Speaker 1: first of all, I want to ask you how did 493 00:29:32,876 --> 00:29:36,516 Speaker 1: that conversation go when you called up for an interview 494 00:29:36,556 --> 00:29:40,636 Speaker 1: with the CDC. So it went this way. So here 495 00:29:40,676 --> 00:29:43,196 Speaker 1: we are two things that happened. First, I had I 496 00:29:43,236 --> 00:29:45,556 Speaker 1: had a dry run of this with the other federal 497 00:29:45,636 --> 00:29:49,316 Speaker 1: institutions under Trump. Because I wrote the fifth risk and 498 00:29:49,356 --> 00:29:51,996 Speaker 1: so I was in I was in a peculiar position 499 00:29:52,036 --> 00:29:54,636 Speaker 1: because I found that what happened before is if I 500 00:29:54,756 --> 00:29:58,476 Speaker 1: called and asked just the Trump communication person in the place, 501 00:29:58,756 --> 00:30:00,796 Speaker 1: they obstructed me. They made it harder for me to 502 00:30:00,796 --> 00:30:03,236 Speaker 1: get to who I needed to talk to. So I 503 00:30:03,276 --> 00:30:06,996 Speaker 1: had a mole who was in the CDC, who was 504 00:30:07,436 --> 00:30:10,956 Speaker 1: at direct connections to the leadership. So instead of going 505 00:30:11,036 --> 00:30:13,076 Speaker 1: to the Trump communication person, I went to the mole, 506 00:30:13,916 --> 00:30:17,356 Speaker 1: and the moles the mole guided me to a few 507 00:30:17,636 --> 00:30:22,716 Speaker 1: off the record conversations which proved extremely useful in a 508 00:30:22,716 --> 00:30:26,516 Speaker 1: couple of ways. One with especially with old timers. They 509 00:30:26,516 --> 00:30:28,836 Speaker 1: could they led me back to the diagnosis of the 510 00:30:28,876 --> 00:30:31,316 Speaker 1: problem of the CDC that that story back in the 511 00:30:31,356 --> 00:30:34,516 Speaker 1: eighties where the institution changes, but also led me to 512 00:30:34,556 --> 00:30:37,516 Speaker 1: the conclusion that all these people are ashamed. They're all 513 00:30:37,556 --> 00:30:41,556 Speaker 1: embarrassed that the individually they are not happy with their institution. 514 00:30:42,116 --> 00:30:45,476 Speaker 1: But at the same time, basically they were shut down. 515 00:30:45,716 --> 00:30:47,956 Speaker 1: The only person I ever got the right to talk 516 00:30:47,996 --> 00:30:49,716 Speaker 1: to and I did actually, and then they had to 517 00:30:49,756 --> 00:30:52,636 Speaker 1: go through the official channels to talk to me. Was 518 00:30:53,116 --> 00:30:55,756 Speaker 1: and this is apropos what you just said about Australia. 519 00:30:55,996 --> 00:31:00,636 Speaker 1: The CDC director in Cambodia, it took four months for 520 00:31:00,716 --> 00:31:04,996 Speaker 1: him to get approval. But I had noticed the same 521 00:31:04,996 --> 00:31:07,596 Speaker 1: thing as Cambodia, as Australia, that they had contained the 522 00:31:07,676 --> 00:31:11,156 Speaker 1: virus because they had this brilliant CDC guy on the 523 00:31:11,196 --> 00:31:13,636 Speaker 1: ground there doing what the CDC knew how to do, 524 00:31:13,676 --> 00:31:16,316 Speaker 1: but not they weren't doing. They were doing outside gotting 525 00:31:16,396 --> 00:31:20,636 Speaker 1: Michael Kinser and I eventually, you know, way too late, 526 00:31:20,796 --> 00:31:23,276 Speaker 1: like weeks before the book was going to the publisher, 527 00:31:23,396 --> 00:31:26,156 Speaker 1: got a chance to talk to him, but only after 528 00:31:26,156 --> 00:31:29,196 Speaker 1: Trump was out in Biden was in. So I think 529 00:31:29,276 --> 00:31:31,956 Speaker 1: this all points to like a bigger thing that if 530 00:31:32,076 --> 00:31:35,916 Speaker 1: the federal government is ever going to reposition itself in 531 00:31:35,956 --> 00:31:40,636 Speaker 1: the minds of ordinary Americans, the communication strategy needs to change. 532 00:31:41,156 --> 00:31:44,956 Speaker 1: It needs to be much more open. Because it was 533 00:31:45,036 --> 00:31:46,916 Speaker 1: virtually I was trying to tell in the end a 534 00:31:47,036 --> 00:31:50,876 Speaker 1: nice story about what they were doing in Cambodia, and 535 00:31:50,956 --> 00:31:54,676 Speaker 1: they wouldn't even really let me do that much less 536 00:31:54,676 --> 00:31:57,876 Speaker 1: get to the guy ahead of the flu division in Atlanta. 537 00:31:57,996 --> 00:32:00,076 Speaker 1: So it was just it was a story of sneaky 538 00:32:00,156 --> 00:32:04,236 Speaker 1: reporting and obstruction. So when you were a portioning blame, 539 00:32:04,316 --> 00:32:06,556 Speaker 1: I saw that you gave thirty seven and a half. 540 00:32:09,116 --> 00:32:13,276 Speaker 1: Actually it was thirty seven point six. Thirty seven point six, right, 541 00:32:14,076 --> 00:32:17,196 Speaker 1: And I was just, you know, I don't think what 542 00:32:17,236 --> 00:32:19,436 Speaker 1: I think is all that interesting on this subject. I 543 00:32:19,516 --> 00:32:23,316 Speaker 1: think that what my characters think is very interesting. And 544 00:32:23,396 --> 00:32:26,076 Speaker 1: they led me away from the story that I thought 545 00:32:26,116 --> 00:32:28,476 Speaker 1: I was going to tell. If my theory of the 546 00:32:28,476 --> 00:32:30,356 Speaker 1: case was the you could lay this all at the 547 00:32:30,356 --> 00:32:33,556 Speaker 1: feet of the Trump administration, and even you know, good 548 00:32:33,556 --> 00:32:36,916 Speaker 1: liberals who were in the middle of disease warfare were 549 00:32:36,916 --> 00:32:38,916 Speaker 1: saying to me, you'd be an idiot to do that, 550 00:32:38,916 --> 00:32:40,556 Speaker 1: because if you just look at what we were, where 551 00:32:40,556 --> 00:32:43,596 Speaker 1: we were before Trump, there has been institutional rot and 552 00:32:43,756 --> 00:32:47,196 Speaker 1: institutional structure that had made it very difficult to deal 553 00:32:47,196 --> 00:32:49,756 Speaker 1: with this. It would have been better. You know, you 554 00:32:49,756 --> 00:32:53,196 Speaker 1: can like maybe two hundred thousand lives belonged to Donald Trump, 555 00:32:53,436 --> 00:32:56,756 Speaker 1: our deaths, but it's it's not the whole thing, and 556 00:32:56,796 --> 00:32:58,436 Speaker 1: it's not that if you're going to go about trying 557 00:32:58,436 --> 00:33:01,436 Speaker 1: to fix it permanently, it's almost a distraction. I mean, 558 00:33:01,516 --> 00:33:03,676 Speaker 1: let put this. This is how much my mind changed 559 00:33:04,276 --> 00:33:07,316 Speaker 1: before I even wrote the fifth risk, which was about 560 00:33:07,356 --> 00:33:10,876 Speaker 1: you know this the mouthfieves so the Trump administration. Partly, 561 00:33:11,716 --> 00:33:13,956 Speaker 1: I thought, no book is going to make any difference, Like, 562 00:33:13,996 --> 00:33:15,996 Speaker 1: I'm not going to bother writing the book. I need 563 00:33:16,036 --> 00:33:19,196 Speaker 1: to find some creative way to get across how threatened 564 00:33:19,236 --> 00:33:22,836 Speaker 1: we are by this approach to government. And I talked 565 00:33:22,876 --> 00:33:26,596 Speaker 1: Time Styre, him and his brother Jim, great guys quite 566 00:33:26,596 --> 00:33:30,036 Speaker 1: like them. They were willing to fund something I was 567 00:33:30,076 --> 00:33:32,836 Speaker 1: going to call the Trump Death Clock. That was going 568 00:33:32,876 --> 00:33:36,236 Speaker 1: to be a billboard in Times Square that would scroll 569 00:33:36,356 --> 00:33:39,476 Speaker 1: the number of deaths that could be attributed to Donald 570 00:33:39,476 --> 00:33:42,996 Speaker 1: Trump by his mismanagement of the risks that the federal 571 00:33:43,036 --> 00:33:47,116 Speaker 1: government manages. And this was in twenty seventeen. So my 572 00:33:47,196 --> 00:33:49,796 Speaker 1: brain was wired to think this is all Donald Trump, 573 00:33:50,356 --> 00:33:52,956 Speaker 1: and my experience ended up telling me no, my brain 574 00:33:53,076 --> 00:33:56,396 Speaker 1: is wrong. This is actually much more complicated than Donald Trump. 575 00:33:57,196 --> 00:34:00,396 Speaker 1: So when asked how much he is to blame, I 576 00:34:00,436 --> 00:34:03,636 Speaker 1: think that's about the right number. Well, that leads me 577 00:34:03,716 --> 00:34:06,556 Speaker 1: to the question of was this bad enough to teach 578 00:34:06,636 --> 00:34:09,876 Speaker 1: us the lessons that we needed to learn. Before I 579 00:34:09,916 --> 00:34:13,436 Speaker 1: answer it, you answered, I don't think it was. Because 580 00:34:13,436 --> 00:34:18,436 Speaker 1: of the the nature of this society needs to change. 581 00:34:18,716 --> 00:34:23,956 Speaker 1: I mean, Charity Deane doing her level best couldn't even 582 00:34:24,036 --> 00:34:30,556 Speaker 1: keep one tubercular guy in quarantine. So I think we 583 00:34:30,916 --> 00:34:33,956 Speaker 1: you know, I think we need re education camps. Basically, 584 00:34:35,676 --> 00:34:37,196 Speaker 1: I'm kind of with you, and I have an idea 585 00:34:37,196 --> 00:34:38,956 Speaker 1: of what they might look like. They're gonna have to 586 00:34:38,996 --> 00:34:42,156 Speaker 1: be kind of four star re education camps. They don't 587 00:34:42,156 --> 00:34:48,156 Speaker 1: have to be comfortable. But it's I thought. Weirdly, I 588 00:34:48,236 --> 00:34:52,996 Speaker 1: was asked right before the pandemic by a reporter, so 589 00:34:53,036 --> 00:34:55,876 Speaker 1: it's in print what I thought it would take for 590 00:34:55,956 --> 00:34:59,716 Speaker 1: the society to change its attitudes, And weirdly, I said, 591 00:34:59,716 --> 00:35:04,276 Speaker 1: a pandemic in which the rich work exposed equally, where 592 00:35:04,356 --> 00:35:06,956 Speaker 1: rich and powerful people saw their children die just like 593 00:35:07,036 --> 00:35:10,796 Speaker 1: poor people, and that it would take that kind of 594 00:35:10,876 --> 00:35:15,316 Speaker 1: existential threat where people who actually have, you know, some 595 00:35:15,476 --> 00:35:19,836 Speaker 1: say in how the society is organized, realize the doom 596 00:35:19,876 --> 00:35:22,636 Speaker 1: they've signed up for if they keep going the way 597 00:35:22,676 --> 00:35:27,196 Speaker 1: they're going. So this thing happens, and it rhymes with 598 00:35:27,396 --> 00:35:30,036 Speaker 1: what I said, but it's not the same thing because 599 00:35:30,796 --> 00:35:34,476 Speaker 1: the rich got to take a basically a pass, not everybody. 600 00:35:34,516 --> 00:35:37,556 Speaker 1: But it was not terrifying all that terrifying if you 601 00:35:37,556 --> 00:35:41,236 Speaker 1: could hold up in your mansion and let poor people 602 00:35:41,276 --> 00:35:45,356 Speaker 1: go to their jobs and expose themselves. It was had 603 00:35:45,396 --> 00:35:48,436 Speaker 1: it been threatening to children, that might that might have 604 00:35:48,516 --> 00:35:55,596 Speaker 1: done it right. Yes, it's different. It's easier for people 605 00:35:55,636 --> 00:35:58,516 Speaker 1: to tell themselves a story that happens to other people. 606 00:35:59,116 --> 00:36:01,716 Speaker 1: If you had a disease like nineteen eighteen, where it's 607 00:36:01,756 --> 00:36:07,396 Speaker 1: sweeping through the population and everybody's exposed and young people 608 00:36:07,476 --> 00:36:11,196 Speaker 1: are dying, I think you get a different response out 609 00:36:11,236 --> 00:36:14,116 Speaker 1: of the society. This is not the ending you would 610 00:36:14,196 --> 00:36:17,236 Speaker 1: wish for. But I think it's true that I think 611 00:36:17,236 --> 00:36:21,716 Speaker 1: two things at once are true. One, it wasn't quite 612 00:36:21,756 --> 00:36:25,396 Speaker 1: what you would need to change the society. It wasn't 613 00:36:25,476 --> 00:36:29,916 Speaker 1: quite the trauma. On the other hand, it was sufficiently 614 00:36:29,956 --> 00:36:33,236 Speaker 1: traumatic that I do see some change. I think enough 615 00:36:33,276 --> 00:36:36,356 Speaker 1: people have had a brush with tragedy that there is 616 00:36:36,956 --> 00:36:39,476 Speaker 1: a different foot feeling in the air, and you're seeing 617 00:36:39,476 --> 00:36:41,716 Speaker 1: it in the way Biden's it's the way bow Biden's 618 00:36:41,756 --> 00:36:44,196 Speaker 1: able to move through the world in the sort of 619 00:36:44,796 --> 00:36:47,316 Speaker 1: the nature of the resistance on the other side feels 620 00:36:47,316 --> 00:36:49,356 Speaker 1: a little different to me than it did during the 621 00:36:49,396 --> 00:36:52,956 Speaker 1: Obama administration. Do you think it's the end of the 622 00:36:53,116 --> 00:36:57,516 Speaker 1: grovenoquist shrink government to the size that you can drown 623 00:36:57,556 --> 00:37:00,916 Speaker 1: it in a bathtub era. I do. I do think that. 624 00:37:01,156 --> 00:37:03,396 Speaker 1: I don't think that's going to play anymore. I think 625 00:37:03,516 --> 00:37:08,276 Speaker 1: enough people had this like a lesson about that. But 626 00:37:08,796 --> 00:37:10,916 Speaker 1: I think you're right. We're not going to have a 627 00:37:10,956 --> 00:37:14,716 Speaker 1: clean solution, and there is a kind of re education 628 00:37:14,796 --> 00:37:17,156 Speaker 1: that needs to occur. I mean it starts with like 629 00:37:17,276 --> 00:37:21,036 Speaker 1: reintroducing civics into the classroom. I mean it's hypocritical because 630 00:37:21,036 --> 00:37:22,996 Speaker 1: I didn't go through it, but if we did it, 631 00:37:22,996 --> 00:37:25,036 Speaker 1: I'd be willing to do my two years of service. 632 00:37:25,396 --> 00:37:27,076 Speaker 1: I think we ought to have two years of national 633 00:37:27,116 --> 00:37:29,716 Speaker 1: service and young people just do it where they get 634 00:37:29,716 --> 00:37:32,316 Speaker 1: to meet and work with people from different social classes, 635 00:37:32,596 --> 00:37:35,236 Speaker 1: get to go work cleaning up nuclear waste for the 636 00:37:35,276 --> 00:37:37,636 Speaker 1: Department of Energy, so they know they know something about 637 00:37:37,636 --> 00:37:39,756 Speaker 1: what their government is doing, and they know there's valuable 638 00:37:39,756 --> 00:37:41,876 Speaker 1: and they have a visceral kind of connection to it. 639 00:37:42,516 --> 00:37:46,116 Speaker 1: I think those things are necessary before the society who 640 00:37:46,156 --> 00:37:51,356 Speaker 1: starts to really change and stop putting political appointees at 641 00:37:51,356 --> 00:37:53,836 Speaker 1: the head of the CDC, or put it another way, 642 00:37:54,076 --> 00:37:57,476 Speaker 1: if you're going to leave them as political appointees, all right, 643 00:37:57,676 --> 00:37:59,916 Speaker 1: for whatever reason, you can't change that. We're gonna have 644 00:37:59,956 --> 00:38:04,116 Speaker 1: four thousand and something presidential appointees running the government. How 645 00:38:04,156 --> 00:38:07,036 Speaker 1: about you change it so that they their terms are 646 00:38:07,036 --> 00:38:11,956 Speaker 1: ten to fifteen years. General Accounting Office. Oddly, the head 647 00:38:11,956 --> 00:38:16,316 Speaker 1: of that is a presidential appointee. The term is fifteen years. 648 00:38:17,596 --> 00:38:22,916 Speaker 1: The surveys of the employees of that operation routinely our 649 00:38:23,036 --> 00:38:26,916 Speaker 1: returned saying I have extremely high job satisfaction. My work 650 00:38:26,956 --> 00:38:30,956 Speaker 1: is purposeful, our place is well run. That if you 651 00:38:31,036 --> 00:38:34,156 Speaker 1: have kind of homeowners rather than home renters at the 652 00:38:34,196 --> 00:38:36,356 Speaker 1: top of these organizations, you get a different kind of 653 00:38:36,396 --> 00:38:40,196 Speaker 1: incentive for the leaders. Instead of managing for whatever the 654 00:38:40,236 --> 00:38:43,356 Speaker 1: crisis might political crisis might be for the next two years, 655 00:38:44,236 --> 00:38:47,276 Speaker 1: you're managing for the long run, and you get you 656 00:38:47,356 --> 00:38:51,156 Speaker 1: get a CDC where, look, actually a pandemic might happen 657 00:38:51,156 --> 00:38:52,996 Speaker 1: on my watch, because my watch is going to be 658 00:38:53,076 --> 00:38:55,996 Speaker 1: a pretty long watch. You get a different relationship. The 659 00:38:56,116 --> 00:38:59,196 Speaker 1: leaders know the institution in a different way. So, yes, 660 00:38:59,396 --> 00:39:03,276 Speaker 1: that would be another reform. So you were saying that 661 00:39:03,356 --> 00:39:07,836 Speaker 1: you want very good at biology in school, and you 662 00:39:07,876 --> 00:39:12,636 Speaker 1: didn't take SIVIX, but you you were an art historian. 663 00:39:12,836 --> 00:39:18,276 Speaker 1: And before we leave this conversation, we look at history backward, 664 00:39:18,316 --> 00:39:23,276 Speaker 1: and we live it forward, and we write because we 665 00:39:23,316 --> 00:39:26,236 Speaker 1: know the end of the story, but we don't know 666 00:39:26,316 --> 00:39:28,556 Speaker 1: the end of our own story. And I'd like you 667 00:39:28,636 --> 00:39:33,476 Speaker 1: to revisit the Michael Lewis who at Princeton was writing 668 00:39:33,476 --> 00:39:36,836 Speaker 1: about Donna Tello and the antique and who was going 669 00:39:36,876 --> 00:39:40,196 Speaker 1: to be an historian, and tell us how you got 670 00:39:40,436 --> 00:39:45,076 Speaker 1: from there to hear Well. It wasn't until I was 671 00:39:45,116 --> 00:39:47,716 Speaker 1: writing that thesis that I thought I loved doing this 672 00:39:47,716 --> 00:39:51,436 Speaker 1: thing called writing, and had never any notion of myself 673 00:39:51,476 --> 00:39:53,796 Speaker 1: as a writer, like I didn't write for school papers, 674 00:39:53,836 --> 00:39:57,476 Speaker 1: and no English teacher ever thought I was especially able, 675 00:39:58,316 --> 00:40:01,836 Speaker 1: just the opposite. But I got absorbed with this particular project, 676 00:40:02,196 --> 00:40:05,356 Speaker 1: and I first confused that as a desire to be 677 00:40:05,356 --> 00:40:07,996 Speaker 1: an art historian, I want to write art history books. 678 00:40:08,636 --> 00:40:13,316 Speaker 1: And my thesis advisor actually said two funny things to me. 679 00:40:13,356 --> 00:40:14,996 Speaker 1: Said One, you're not going to be an artist storian. 680 00:40:15,876 --> 00:40:18,316 Speaker 1: That because there aren't going to be hard historians is 681 00:40:18,356 --> 00:40:20,516 Speaker 1: basically what he said. We're going out of business here. 682 00:40:20,716 --> 00:40:24,036 Speaker 1: There's no there're not gonna be any jobs. But I 683 00:40:24,076 --> 00:40:28,556 Speaker 1: asked him during my thesis defense, I what he thought 684 00:40:28,556 --> 00:40:30,996 Speaker 1: of the writing, because I was vain about it. You know, 685 00:40:31,036 --> 00:40:34,036 Speaker 1: I'd gotten so absorbed with it. He was a perfect 686 00:40:34,036 --> 00:40:36,396 Speaker 1: Princeton professor. He had a tweet jacket with patches on 687 00:40:36,436 --> 00:40:40,236 Speaker 1: his elbow, and a pipe and salt and pepper mustache, 688 00:40:40,956 --> 00:40:43,276 Speaker 1: and he pulls down his pipe and he says, put 689 00:40:43,316 --> 00:40:45,676 Speaker 1: it this way, never try to make a living at it. 690 00:40:46,116 --> 00:40:50,156 Speaker 1: And he didn't. That he didn't dissuade me shows just 691 00:40:50,236 --> 00:40:53,196 Speaker 1: how much energy I had at that point. At that point, 692 00:40:53,236 --> 00:40:56,436 Speaker 1: I just went off willy nilly. After I graduated from college, 693 00:40:56,476 --> 00:40:59,116 Speaker 1: and I didn't care much about what job I had. 694 00:40:59,396 --> 00:41:01,596 Speaker 1: I just was trying to have experiences and write about 695 00:41:01,676 --> 00:41:05,716 Speaker 1: them and submit them to magazines. And it took two 696 00:41:05,796 --> 00:41:10,276 Speaker 1: years before anybody published anything. They were lots of rejections. 697 00:41:11,036 --> 00:41:12,396 Speaker 1: I did a no idea what I was doing. I 698 00:41:12,436 --> 00:41:15,036 Speaker 1: didn't know any writers, basically, I mean, I didn't really 699 00:41:15,276 --> 00:41:17,516 Speaker 1: have any kind of reason to think I should be 700 00:41:17,556 --> 00:41:21,076 Speaker 1: doing this except I liked doing it. My favorite rejection 701 00:41:21,236 --> 00:41:24,516 Speaker 1: was I went and spent some months ladling soup at 702 00:41:24,516 --> 00:41:27,116 Speaker 1: the Bowery Mission and Young Men's Home. I'd do that 703 00:41:27,356 --> 00:41:29,836 Speaker 1: after I got off of work, and it was just 704 00:41:29,876 --> 00:41:32,116 Speaker 1: a volunteer job, and I got to know homeless people. 705 00:41:32,276 --> 00:41:35,796 Speaker 1: They were clearly like different types of homeless people, and 706 00:41:35,836 --> 00:41:38,996 Speaker 1: I thought how interesting it was, just how kind of 707 00:41:39,036 --> 00:41:41,396 Speaker 1: cool and smart some of them were. And I started 708 00:41:41,436 --> 00:41:45,116 Speaker 1: writing thing about the homeless and about destitution on the Bowery, 709 00:41:45,956 --> 00:41:49,036 Speaker 1: and I looked through magazines about where you could submit 710 00:41:49,076 --> 00:41:50,956 Speaker 1: things and you might get published if you weren't a 711 00:41:50,956 --> 00:41:54,556 Speaker 1: published author, And apparently at that time in flight magazines 712 00:41:54,716 --> 00:41:57,436 Speaker 1: like for Delta and American Airlines that it was like 713 00:41:57,516 --> 00:41:59,716 Speaker 1: that was where you went. So I sent this thing 714 00:41:59,756 --> 00:42:02,756 Speaker 1: about destitution and poverty in New York City, and I 715 00:42:02,796 --> 00:42:05,636 Speaker 1: got these letters back from like the editor of Delta 716 00:42:05,676 --> 00:42:08,796 Speaker 1: in Flight magazine saying, you know, it's really interesting, but 717 00:42:08,836 --> 00:42:10,916 Speaker 1: which to get people to go to New York not 718 00:42:13,436 --> 00:42:18,916 Speaker 1: So it really isn't for us. You know. The next 719 00:42:18,996 --> 00:42:22,196 Speaker 1: experience you went in search up was working on Wall Well, 720 00:42:22,236 --> 00:42:24,316 Speaker 1: so that and yeah, so that's it was kind of 721 00:42:24,356 --> 00:42:26,996 Speaker 1: like I just there was a whole lot of accident 722 00:42:27,076 --> 00:42:29,396 Speaker 1: in a period of a few years that ended with 723 00:42:29,436 --> 00:42:33,356 Speaker 1: me with this job at Solomon Brothers and on Wall Street. 724 00:42:33,436 --> 00:42:36,676 Speaker 1: And I started writing about Wall Street and that Delta 725 00:42:36,716 --> 00:42:39,756 Speaker 1: in Fight magazine want to hear about that? Uh So 726 00:42:40,156 --> 00:42:42,316 Speaker 1: that was the beginning of the career. I mean that 727 00:42:42,396 --> 00:42:44,956 Speaker 1: really was the beginning of the career. Well, I'm very 728 00:42:44,996 --> 00:42:48,716 Speaker 1: grateful to you for once having a long discussion with 729 00:42:48,756 --> 00:42:51,556 Speaker 1: my son wanting him not to go to Wall Street. 730 00:42:53,676 --> 00:43:03,596 Speaker 1: It only sort of worked, yes only, so, yes, that's 731 00:43:03,596 --> 00:43:08,876 Speaker 1: the second one. It will work better. So how much 732 00:43:08,876 --> 00:43:12,996 Speaker 1: of how much of your imagination do you attribute to 733 00:43:13,156 --> 00:43:17,396 Speaker 1: having grown up in New Orleans? A lot, particularly since 734 00:43:17,436 --> 00:43:20,556 Speaker 1: I grew up in a privileged in household. I think 735 00:43:20,756 --> 00:43:24,276 Speaker 1: privileged elsewhere might have been a lot more deadly. Privilege 736 00:43:24,316 --> 00:43:27,756 Speaker 1: to New Orleans was very messy in that it was 737 00:43:27,836 --> 00:43:31,116 Speaker 1: the society was all mixed up, and I wasn't just 738 00:43:31,196 --> 00:43:33,876 Speaker 1: spending lots of time with other rich people all the time, 739 00:43:34,196 --> 00:43:36,676 Speaker 1: and I was with lots of different kinds of people, 740 00:43:37,236 --> 00:43:41,876 Speaker 1: and not just economically but racially oddly, And the culture 741 00:43:41,996 --> 00:43:45,436 Speaker 1: of New Orleans was such as it's not a literary culture. 742 00:43:45,716 --> 00:43:48,996 Speaker 1: It's a verbal culture, but it's a storytelling culture, and 743 00:43:49,036 --> 00:43:51,676 Speaker 1: there is some obligation when your mouth is open for 744 00:43:51,756 --> 00:43:54,636 Speaker 1: it to be delivering something that's entertaining to the other person. 745 00:43:55,036 --> 00:43:57,676 Speaker 1: Nobody really wants to hear about the weather, or they don't. 746 00:43:57,676 --> 00:43:59,516 Speaker 1: They don't, They wouldn't even occur to them because the 747 00:43:59,596 --> 00:44:04,236 Speaker 1: level of the expectations are so high about the pleasure 748 00:44:04,276 --> 00:44:06,956 Speaker 1: that's going to occur between people when they interact, that 749 00:44:07,076 --> 00:44:10,676 Speaker 1: you just do better. And I think that muscle of 750 00:44:10,916 --> 00:44:14,556 Speaker 1: having to do better when you encounter someone is a 751 00:44:14,676 --> 00:44:17,476 Speaker 1: very powerful thing. And I think it's kind of what 752 00:44:17,476 --> 00:44:19,396 Speaker 1: happens when I sit down and write. I feel like 753 00:44:19,476 --> 00:44:21,436 Speaker 1: I have to do better here than talk about the weather. 754 00:44:21,956 --> 00:44:24,236 Speaker 1: I have a here's an odd New Orleans story that 755 00:44:24,276 --> 00:44:26,156 Speaker 1: just popped into my head, and I remember thinking, when 756 00:44:26,276 --> 00:44:29,356 Speaker 1: it's an anecdote. Two anecdotes about New Orleans, can I 757 00:44:29,396 --> 00:44:33,436 Speaker 1: do this all right? One is I remember flying home. 758 00:44:35,116 --> 00:44:37,836 Speaker 1: I was maybe like late twenties, and every time I 759 00:44:37,876 --> 00:44:40,196 Speaker 1: flew home, I felt this like I'm going home. I mean, 760 00:44:40,196 --> 00:44:42,796 Speaker 1: this is I love this place. It's just different. The 761 00:44:42,876 --> 00:44:45,116 Speaker 1: people on the plane from Atlanta to New Orleans to 762 00:44:45,236 --> 00:44:46,996 Speaker 1: just differ from all the other people on earth. They're 763 00:44:47,036 --> 00:44:48,956 Speaker 1: a bunch of a lot of New Orleanians and there's 764 00:44:48,956 --> 00:44:54,076 Speaker 1: just a festive atmosphere, and three guys walk in carrying 765 00:44:54,116 --> 00:44:57,676 Speaker 1: like six phone books each, Like New Orleans just generates stories, 766 00:44:57,716 --> 00:45:00,116 Speaker 1: like there's no explanation for why they have six phone books. 767 00:45:00,236 --> 00:45:02,996 Speaker 1: They take all the overhead bin space with phone books, 768 00:45:03,876 --> 00:45:06,876 Speaker 1: so there's no overhead bin space. So right behind them, 769 00:45:06,956 --> 00:45:09,956 Speaker 1: I'm sitting down watching them come in. About right behind them, 770 00:45:09,956 --> 00:45:12,596 Speaker 1: another dude comes and he's kind of a youngish guy. 771 00:45:12,716 --> 00:45:14,516 Speaker 1: He looks up at the phone books and he looks 772 00:45:14,516 --> 00:45:17,676 Speaker 1: at me and he smiles. He goes, he goes. Not 773 00:45:17,756 --> 00:45:19,756 Speaker 1: much of a story, but it's got lots of characters, 774 00:45:22,436 --> 00:45:25,316 Speaker 1: and it was he was a New Orleanian, and I thought, 775 00:45:25,716 --> 00:45:28,076 Speaker 1: that's such a New Orleans moment, and it's also such 776 00:45:28,116 --> 00:45:33,996 Speaker 1: a description of New Orleans. The other New Orleans story 777 00:45:34,196 --> 00:45:36,916 Speaker 1: was right after Liar's Poker, my first book came out. 778 00:45:37,556 --> 00:45:40,396 Speaker 1: I was all over national television, like David Letterman in 779 00:45:40,436 --> 00:45:42,876 Speaker 1: a national television and all of a sudden is being 780 00:45:42,916 --> 00:45:45,876 Speaker 1: recognized all the time on the streets. And I spent 781 00:45:45,916 --> 00:45:49,236 Speaker 1: about a week or so doing having this happen to me. 782 00:45:49,276 --> 00:45:51,036 Speaker 1: When I went home to New Orleans, and I got 783 00:45:51,036 --> 00:45:54,356 Speaker 1: to my parents' house, still on the book tour, just 784 00:45:54,396 --> 00:45:57,316 Speaker 1: staying with them, and my mother says, could you run 785 00:45:57,316 --> 00:45:59,196 Speaker 1: over the Laginstein's and get this to hand me a 786 00:45:59,196 --> 00:46:01,356 Speaker 1: grocery list? And so I went over the grocery store 787 00:46:01,756 --> 00:46:03,476 Speaker 1: and it's a little local grocery store and I got 788 00:46:03,476 --> 00:46:04,996 Speaker 1: a cart and I was pushing it down the aisle 789 00:46:05,316 --> 00:46:07,356 Speaker 1: and there was a little old lady coming the other 790 00:46:07,356 --> 00:46:11,516 Speaker 1: way and she starts to point, and I didn't recognize her, 791 00:46:11,556 --> 00:46:13,876 Speaker 1: and I thought she saw me on Letterman or whatever. 792 00:46:14,236 --> 00:46:16,116 Speaker 1: And she comes up right up close to me and 793 00:46:16,156 --> 00:46:21,356 Speaker 1: she says, you're Malcolm and Rose grandson. And I said, yeah, 794 00:46:21,436 --> 00:46:24,116 Speaker 1: how'd you know? She said, I saw it in your eyes. 795 00:46:24,436 --> 00:46:29,396 Speaker 1: Those eyes are your grandfather's eyes. And that recognition, and 796 00:46:29,436 --> 00:46:32,516 Speaker 1: it's the recognition that famous people get in a cheap 797 00:46:32,556 --> 00:46:35,596 Speaker 1: way with their celebrity. New Orleanans get it in a 798 00:46:35,716 --> 00:46:39,116 Speaker 1: very deep way because of the smallness and interconnectedness of 799 00:46:39,156 --> 00:46:43,236 Speaker 1: the society. Like everybody's a celebrity. Everybody's kind of on stage, 800 00:46:43,756 --> 00:46:46,676 Speaker 1: and that being on stage all the time, that's another 801 00:46:46,756 --> 00:46:51,276 Speaker 1: muscle that's useful. Well, may you always stay on stage. 802 00:46:51,316 --> 00:47:00,076 Speaker 1: And Michael Lewis's new book is called The Premonition. You 803 00:47:00,116 --> 00:47:03,356 Speaker 1: can buy it wherever books are sold. Season three of 804 00:47:03,436 --> 00:47:08,276 Speaker 1: Against the Rules will be out in the fall. Against 805 00:47:08,356 --> 00:47:11,996 Speaker 1: the Rules as a production of Pushkin Industries. Sign up 806 00:47:11,996 --> 00:47:16,516 Speaker 1: for Pushkin's newsletter at pushkin dot fmp de. Find more 807 00:47:16,556 --> 00:47:21,476 Speaker 1: Pushkin podcasts. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 808 00:47:21,476 --> 00:47:23,196 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts.