WEBVTT - Sunny Balwani's Defense in Second Theranos Trial 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:10.600 This is Bloomberg Law with June Brasso from Bloomberg Radio. Hello, Walgreens, 0:00:10.880 --> 0:00:14.600 Welcome to the ARNS. We're gonna launch in September, but 0:00:14.840 --> 0:00:17.119 we're gonna launch in phases. Phase one. We're gonna use 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:20.119 the Semens machines to run the tests. I think I 0:00:20.160 --> 0:00:24.720 can program new software for it that says I love 0:00:24.760 --> 0:00:27.520 you all Greens. Just need to know exactly what we're 0:00:27.600 --> 0:00:31.920 running the tests on. Yes, just phase one. The Dropout 0:00:32.040 --> 0:00:36.120 on Hulu is the latest recounting of the spectacular rise 0:00:36.200 --> 0:00:39.839 and fall of Elizabeth Holmes and her blood testing start up, 0:00:40.000 --> 0:00:43.199 paras with a sort of co starring role for her 0:00:43.240 --> 0:00:47.920 former boyfriend and Tharahns president Ramesh Sunny bell Wanni. The 0:00:48.000 --> 0:00:51.159 first episode premiered just in time for the start of 0:00:51.200 --> 0:00:54.840 bell Wanni's trial in the same courthouse where Holmes was 0:00:54.920 --> 0:00:58.640 convicted of de frauding investors in January and on the 0:00:58.800 --> 0:01:02.960 same charges. Joining me is Bloomberg Legal reporter Joel Rosenblatt, 0:01:03.080 --> 0:01:06.759 who also covered the Holmes trial. This trial started about 0:01:06.800 --> 0:01:10.280 two and a half months after the conviction of Elizabeth Holmes. 0:01:10.760 --> 0:01:12.600 Was it difficult to get a jury who didn't know 0:01:12.680 --> 0:01:17.240 about that trial? Incredibly difficult. So the attorneys and the 0:01:17.400 --> 0:01:20.559 court ran into all the same problems that they had 0:01:20.760 --> 0:01:23.760 with Elizabeth Holmes in terms of the exposure to the 0:01:23.800 --> 0:01:28.000 book and just the coverage generally. But now add the 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:31.360 dropout this docu dropped my series, which has this only 0:01:31.400 --> 0:01:35.039 added to the exposure. So it took five or six 0:01:35.160 --> 0:01:38.480 days and a number of groups of jurors who were excused. 0:01:38.640 --> 0:01:41.800 There was a media circus for Elizabeth Holmes trial. What 0:01:41.920 --> 0:01:46.080 about Balwannies, it's greatly diminished. I mean, it's basically non existent. 0:01:46.120 --> 0:01:49.200 There are journalists covering the trial for sure, but the 0:01:49.360 --> 0:01:51.840 members of the public you don't see them. It's a 0:01:52.040 --> 0:01:56.360 rather a quiet affair. In the opening statements, the prosecutor 0:01:56.440 --> 0:02:02.200 repeatedly started sentences with Bale and Holmes. Tell us what 0:02:02.280 --> 0:02:06.560 that indicates. The opening arguments were very much the same 0:02:06.600 --> 0:02:10.080 as they were against Elizabeth Holmes. They were streamlined, so 0:02:10.120 --> 0:02:12.320 there was a lot cleaner. The rough edges kind of 0:02:12.360 --> 0:02:16.919 weren't there. And by pairing him with Elizabeth, they're really 0:02:17.040 --> 0:02:21.320 aiming at the conspiracy theory. They were indicted as co conspirators, 0:02:21.360 --> 0:02:23.880 so that's an important charge. But also they're just trying 0:02:23.960 --> 0:02:26.760 to pair him with everything that she did, and that's 0:02:26.800 --> 0:02:31.000 not difficult because the texts and emails, all the conversations, 0:02:31.000 --> 0:02:33.400 really all the functions of the company, and they were 0:02:33.480 --> 0:02:37.760 romantically involved. Was there a differentiation between what bal Wanni 0:02:37.919 --> 0:02:40.920 did and what Holmes did or is the prosecution just 0:02:41.040 --> 0:02:44.760 lumping them in together for everything. They're lumping them together 0:02:44.840 --> 0:02:47.519 for most things. I would say, but there is a distinction. 0:02:47.680 --> 0:02:51.400 Sonny boy was in charge of the laboratories, so he 0:02:51.600 --> 0:02:56.120 had more exposure to two important facts. One is the 0:02:56.200 --> 0:02:59.720 bad blood results the inaccuracies of the fair Noose technology. 0:03:00.160 --> 0:03:02.600 He had more exposure to that from both just the 0:03:02.639 --> 0:03:07.760 results themselves, but also complaints from employees about the inaccuracies. 0:03:08.040 --> 0:03:11.040 He also was in charge of finances, or more in 0:03:11.120 --> 0:03:14.799 charge of revenue projections. Elizabeth Holmes tried to blame him 0:03:14.960 --> 0:03:17.000 for that, but he did have more of a Hammond 0:03:17.080 --> 0:03:21.600 in those projections, as well as the company's relationship with Walgreens. 0:03:21.639 --> 0:03:24.799 So there are some differences, and the prosecution wills teek 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:27.720 to kind of emphasize those areas in which Sonny Boltwani 0:03:27.840 --> 0:03:31.359 was more exposed or had a greater responsibility for what 0:03:31.400 --> 0:03:34.639 they say are the inaccuracies in the fraud. Much was 0:03:34.720 --> 0:03:38.280 made at Holmes trial. She accused Belwanni of emotional and 0:03:38.360 --> 0:03:41.440 sexual abuse, but there won't be any mention of that 0:03:41.480 --> 0:03:44.080 at this trial. I don't think so. I mean, there's 0:03:44.160 --> 0:03:47.400 kind of one very sensational question, which is whether or 0:03:47.440 --> 0:03:51.680 not she's now cooperating with the government to reduce her 0:03:51.760 --> 0:03:55.280 sentence marginally. That would be marginally at this point, given 0:03:55.320 --> 0:03:58.560 how long she waited to cooperate, and whether she'll testify, 0:03:58.880 --> 0:04:02.400 in which case maybe that testimony comes out. But I 0:04:02.440 --> 0:04:06.760 think the chances of her testifying are unlikely, and there's 0:04:06.800 --> 0:04:09.400 no reason she was the one who leveled those charges 0:04:09.440 --> 0:04:11.880 at him, not the government. To the government has no 0:04:12.160 --> 0:04:15.800 interest or really right to mention any of that. Do 0:04:15.880 --> 0:04:19.479 some people actually think that she will testify. Many media, 0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:21.960 of course want her to testify because it would be 0:04:22.000 --> 0:04:23.880 so great, you know, really kind of bring the whole 0:04:23.920 --> 0:04:26.760 thing back. But there's just a lot of risks, and 0:04:26.800 --> 0:04:29.599 it's also been pointed out to me repeatedly that the 0:04:29.640 --> 0:04:33.200 government really doesn't need her for its case. The downside 0:04:33.240 --> 0:04:36.080 of the risk don't outweigh what seemed to be the 0:04:36.200 --> 0:04:39.000 risks of kind of making the trial about her Again. 0:04:39.279 --> 0:04:42.000 I don't think the government wants to do that. Elizabeth 0:04:42.000 --> 0:04:45.320 Holmes made the risky decision of taking the stand. That 0:04:45.400 --> 0:04:47.800 didn't help ultimately, but it might have helped with some 0:04:47.880 --> 0:04:51.000 of the counts against her. What about Bell Wannie, any 0:04:51.000 --> 0:04:54.599 indication that he might take the stand as well? No, again, 0:04:54.720 --> 0:04:58.360 very unlikely. She was compelling, right, I mean, she was believable. 0:04:58.640 --> 0:05:01.440 Whether or not you actually did end up believing what 0:05:01.520 --> 0:05:04.760 she said, she at least had a chance of convincing 0:05:05.080 --> 0:05:08.200 jurors of her side of the story. And it was believable, 0:05:08.320 --> 0:05:11.120 even though maybe it doesn't sound it went there. But 0:05:11.200 --> 0:05:14.760 he didn't have that kind of charisma. He seems uncomfortable 0:05:15.040 --> 0:05:18.280 just generally in the courtroom, in the spotlight, and it's 0:05:18.320 --> 0:05:21.760 just almost unimaginable to believe that he or his lawyers 0:05:21.800 --> 0:05:25.120 would feel that his testimony would serve his defense. It 0:05:25.160 --> 0:05:28.039 would be hard to top her magnetism, that's for sure. 0:05:28.640 --> 0:05:32.279 What did Bani's attorney reveal about the defense in his 0:05:32.440 --> 0:05:35.680 opening statement? You know, this is where this case is 0:05:35.839 --> 0:05:39.280 very interesting to me, and it stands to be completely 0:05:39.279 --> 0:05:44.120 different from Elizabeth Holmes's trial. There's a database at Sarakos 0:05:44.200 --> 0:05:49.200 that collected the results of patient tests giant database and 0:05:49.680 --> 0:05:53.080 it was, for lack of a better word, destroyed, And 0:05:53.600 --> 0:05:56.640 Sunny Bolani and his lawyers are pointing to that database 0:05:56.680 --> 0:05:59.480 to say, the government has selected, you know, just a 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:03.360 sliver the thinnest fraction of test results of bad test 0:06:03.400 --> 0:06:06.320 results for its case. They're gonna bring patients on saying 0:06:06.600 --> 0:06:09.880 we got inaccurate results. But what Sonny balt Wannis lawyers 0:06:09.880 --> 0:06:13.640 are saying is that there were nine million results in 0:06:13.720 --> 0:06:17.279 this database and you didn't even bother to look at them, 0:06:17.440 --> 0:06:21.760 and so we're being unfairly impugned. There are inaccuracies at 0:06:21.839 --> 0:06:27.000 laboratories all the time, and we suffered maybe a reasonable 0:06:27.200 --> 0:06:29.680 number of inaccuracies, but you failed to look at all 0:06:29.680 --> 0:06:33.200 the great test, all the perfectly accurate results. That's a 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:36.000 kind of fraught defense in its own way. The government 0:06:36.000 --> 0:06:40.960 alleges that Saranos intentionally destroyed this database. So this trial 0:06:41.279 --> 0:06:43.680 looks like it's going to be headed towards a kind 0:06:43.720 --> 0:06:47.040 of trial about this database. If Sonny Baltwanna continues to 0:06:47.080 --> 0:06:49.800 go down that road, I think it's actually strategically a 0:06:49.800 --> 0:06:51.760 great choice for him. I think it gives them at 0:06:51.800 --> 0:06:55.279 least a chance. Did the defense attorney also point at 0:06:55.320 --> 0:06:59.839 Homes as the real guilty party here. They did. They 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:04.400 pointed out that she founded the company, she was the CEO, 0:07:04.560 --> 0:07:07.680 she was in charge of the company for years before 0:07:07.760 --> 0:07:11.280 he came on as president, and that's all accurate, and 0:07:11.360 --> 0:07:15.680 so they kind of brushed at that. They didn't go 0:07:16.000 --> 0:07:19.800 as forcefully in that direction as I had expected. As 0:07:19.840 --> 0:07:23.640 I mentioned, it looks like they're relying more on this 0:07:23.720 --> 0:07:28.080 defense based on the defunct database then pointing at her. 0:07:28.440 --> 0:07:30.760 She suffered from the same problem as you mentioned. She 0:07:30.840 --> 0:07:33.280 pointed the finger at him, and now he's left the 0:07:33.320 --> 0:07:35.760 door open to doing that to her. But like I said, 0:07:35.840 --> 0:07:40.080 they're so paired, the text and the communications, the romantic involvements, 0:07:40.560 --> 0:07:43.760 they're just so completely tied together that it's I think 0:07:43.880 --> 0:07:47.520 very difficult for either one to extract themselves from the 0:07:47.600 --> 0:07:51.760 alleged co conspiracy. Holmes was the face of the business 0:07:52.000 --> 0:07:54.080 and she was the darling of the media. There are 0:07:54.120 --> 0:07:57.440 all these different interviews with her, and she was on 0:07:57.480 --> 0:08:01.240 the cover of magazines, all the boasting two investors and 0:08:01.320 --> 0:08:05.000 the media. So was that all done by Holmes? Will 0:08:05.360 --> 0:08:07.800 Bell wanna get a pass on some of that? I 0:08:07.800 --> 0:08:09.760 think he doesn't get a pass on that. I mean, 0:08:09.880 --> 0:08:13.400 he just wasn't. Her testimony her trial showed that he 0:08:13.440 --> 0:08:15.800 had dressed her up and he had prepared her, and 0:08:15.880 --> 0:08:20.800 he had a strong hand in making her be that person. 0:08:21.120 --> 0:08:24.440 But he also revealed that she enjoyed that and that 0:08:24.560 --> 0:08:29.080 was a role that she embraced and he wasn't. Yeah, 0:08:29.160 --> 0:08:32.760 he didn't make many of these public statements. He wasn't 0:08:32.800 --> 0:08:37.960 out there, uh, making these claims as publicly as she was. 0:08:38.400 --> 0:08:42.199 And I think that helps him, but not enough, not 0:08:42.320 --> 0:08:46.040 enough to absolve him. So the charges are the same, 0:08:46.160 --> 0:08:48.320 Are many of the witnesses going to be the same. 0:08:48.400 --> 0:08:50.640 Is it going to be like a rerun? It is? 0:08:51.120 --> 0:08:55.040 It is. I think the one question is whether the 0:08:55.120 --> 0:08:58.000 patients will be different or the government will spend more 0:08:58.000 --> 0:09:01.960 time on patients who claimed that they got bad results 0:09:01.960 --> 0:09:04.960 and what the what the kind of bad effects of 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:09.320 those bad results were, because the government spent very little 0:09:09.360 --> 0:09:15.439 time on that actually in her trial and she was absolved. 0:09:15.480 --> 0:09:18.720 She was vindicated on all the accounts of patient fraud, 0:09:19.120 --> 0:09:21.920 all of them. So it remains to be seen whether 0:09:22.040 --> 0:09:24.000 or not the government is kind of happy just to 0:09:24.120 --> 0:09:27.760 kind of paint him with these patients, even if they 0:09:27.760 --> 0:09:31.280 don't quite connect him to the fraud against them, or 0:09:31.280 --> 0:09:34.280 if they look to shore up their case and bring 0:09:34.360 --> 0:09:39.320 in more patients or patients with kind of darker, more 0:09:39.840 --> 0:09:43.040 disturbing stories about the test results, and whether or not 0:09:43.080 --> 0:09:46.920 they choose to emphasize that part of their case more. Obviously, 0:09:47.200 --> 0:09:49.520 this isn't a retrial, but it seems a lot like 0:09:49.559 --> 0:09:52.240 a retrial. Who do you think has the advantage, the 0:09:52.320 --> 0:09:55.960 prosecution or the defense. It's hard to say, really. I 0:09:56.040 --> 0:09:58.760 mentioned the opening arguments. The government's opening arguments were really 0:09:58.800 --> 0:10:03.800 strong because they have been through this before and they won, right, 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:06.280 they won, so you can kind of do what you 0:10:06.400 --> 0:10:09.520 did before and if it isn't broke, then don't fix 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:12.480 it kind of attitude. On the other hand, sunny Balhalwani 0:10:12.600 --> 0:10:14.760 got to see the whole thing before he has to 0:10:14.760 --> 0:10:17.040 go to trial, and so he knows what's coming, and 0:10:17.160 --> 0:10:20.000 so hard to say. I think the advantage, you have 0:10:20.120 --> 0:10:22.440 to say, on balance goes to the government because of 0:10:22.440 --> 0:10:25.160 the government won the first time, so it's kind of 0:10:25.200 --> 0:10:28.079 like you've got a winning hand and Sunny Balwanni is 0:10:28.080 --> 0:10:30.360 gonna have to do something very special in order to 0:10:30.480 --> 0:10:33.360 up end that. What's happening with Holmes right now, has 0:10:33.360 --> 0:10:37.160 she filed a motion for a retrial. That's a great question, 0:10:37.440 --> 0:10:43.720 because those motions were due and the deadline came and passed, 0:10:44.080 --> 0:10:47.880 and so that, to me, you've raised a lot of questions. 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:51.680 She's awaiting her sentencing, which isn't until September, and that's 0:10:51.760 --> 0:10:55.720 because the judge wants to see what Sunny bans well. 0:10:55.760 --> 0:10:57.840 First of all, what happens with him, whether he's convicted 0:10:57.960 --> 0:11:00.880 or not, and either way kind of what his role was. 0:11:01.200 --> 0:11:03.760 Especially if he's convicted, he needs to figure out who 0:11:04.000 --> 0:11:06.600 was more culpable in terms of kind of meeting out 0:11:06.760 --> 0:11:10.760 their respective sentences. So he wants the information from this 0:11:10.840 --> 0:11:13.520 trial for sentencing both of them. Whether or not that 0:11:13.600 --> 0:11:16.920 miss deeadline means that she's not going to make those 0:11:16.960 --> 0:11:20.800 filings and is cooperating is a question that I have. 0:11:21.000 --> 0:11:23.080 I don't know the answer, but she could still file 0:11:23.240 --> 0:11:26.719 an appeal. But these kind of routine motions for a retrial, 0:11:26.920 --> 0:11:29.280 like I said, came and went, and that's unusual. That's 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:32.360 very interesting because as you say, those are usually filed 0:11:32.400 --> 0:11:36.840 after trial. Tell us about the aggravating and mitigating factors 0:11:36.920 --> 0:11:41.200 the judge will consider in sentencing homes well. So she 0:11:41.600 --> 0:11:44.800 was the CEO, and like you said, the face of 0:11:44.800 --> 0:11:47.600 the company and also the person who was the point 0:11:47.640 --> 0:11:51.400 person for the contact with investors, and so she was 0:11:51.559 --> 0:11:55.360 really very heavily involved in deceiving investors. So that's an 0:11:55.360 --> 0:11:57.800 aggravating role. If you're seen as the person who was 0:11:57.840 --> 0:12:01.200 really leading the fraud, that can at some time. But 0:12:01.480 --> 0:12:04.480 the biggest problem for her is the amount of money 0:12:04.559 --> 0:12:07.400 that investors were defrauded of, which if you add up 0:12:07.440 --> 0:12:10.560 accounts that she was convicted on, is a hundred and 0:12:10.600 --> 0:12:13.880 forty four million dollars. That's just an astounding sum of 0:12:13.960 --> 0:12:16.760 money in a wire fraud case. And that some of 0:12:16.840 --> 0:12:20.720 money gets her to around ten years and I think 0:12:20.760 --> 0:12:23.640 that's going to be difficult for her to get out 0:12:23.720 --> 0:12:26.920 from underneath. And so we also have these mitigating factors, 0:12:27.080 --> 0:12:30.120 which is that she is a new mother. Her baby 0:12:30.240 --> 0:12:33.640 was born in July, I believe, and she's likely to 0:12:33.720 --> 0:12:36.120 raise that point as well as the fact that she's 0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:39.080 the first time felon the child. Though is is not 0:12:39.280 --> 0:12:42.520 legally a mitigating factor, it's something that she can raise. 0:12:43.000 --> 0:12:46.160 So depending on what the judge feels about those various 0:12:46.200 --> 0:12:50.360 factors will determine what sentence he arrives. At but he 0:12:50.400 --> 0:12:52.800 also has to send a message to Silicon Valley, and 0:12:52.880 --> 0:12:56.200 you know this is a widely watched case, and he's 0:12:56.240 --> 0:13:00.440 going to want to I think give her some serious time, thanks, Joel. 0:13:00.720 --> 0:13:06.080 That's Bloomberg Legal reporter Joe Rosenblatt on Maye. The c 0:13:06.200 --> 0:13:09.320 d C is lifting the asylum band known as Title 0:13:09.400 --> 0:13:13.000 forty two, which allows migrants and asylum seekers to be 0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:16.560 turned away at the border under a pandemic public health order, 0:13:16.960 --> 0:13:20.640 and three Republican states are taking the Biden administration to 0:13:20.800 --> 0:13:24.440 court over its plans to end the Trump era policy. 0:13:24.520 --> 0:13:27.920 Here's White House Press Secretary Jen Saki. This is a 0:13:27.960 --> 0:13:31.480 decision made by the CDC. It's a public health decision. 0:13:32.040 --> 0:13:34.720 It's not one that should be wrapped up, of course 0:13:34.720 --> 0:13:37.840 in politics. Joining me is Leon Fresco, a partner at 0:13:37.880 --> 0:13:41.679 Hollandon Night. Leon. Is this purely a decision by the 0:13:41.760 --> 0:13:44.880 c d C with public health in mind? Or are 0:13:44.920 --> 0:13:47.760 there political factors at play? Well? I think there are 0:13:47.800 --> 0:13:51.240 a number of issues that the person who is none 0:13:51.240 --> 0:13:53.400 of this has been done in a vactive There's litigation 0:13:53.559 --> 0:13:57.680 in the challenging the dutility of Title forty two. That 0:13:57.840 --> 0:14:01.480 litigation is pricing them in the district of Columbia. B'm 0:14:01.520 --> 0:14:04.840 not using it towards families, And so then the question is, 0:14:04.840 --> 0:14:07.760 is the policy works do things just for single adults? 0:14:07.920 --> 0:14:10.840 And then you start having a difficult question about, well, 0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:13.520 what is the public health reason to use it only 0:14:13.600 --> 0:14:16.160 for single adults and not for families or for kids. 0:14:16.160 --> 0:14:18.760 It's either a public health thing or it's not a 0:14:18.800 --> 0:14:23.040 public health thing. And as other public health restrictions start 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:26.840 to lessen across the United States, then it becomes more 0:14:26.840 --> 0:14:29.720 and more difficult to justify the use of site afforty too. 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:33.520 There's political pressure for many Democrats in Congress to live 0:14:33.640 --> 0:14:36.880 site afforty too, and all of that in conjunction then 0:14:37.000 --> 0:14:40.880 of the CDC, who originally wasn't a big plan of 0:14:40.960 --> 0:14:42.880 using tide A forty two has to sort of be 0:14:43.040 --> 0:14:46.080 voted into using it. Now makes it easier for the 0:14:46.160 --> 0:14:49.160 CDC sort of to return to their original position that 0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:53.320 these public health exclusions weren't necessarily the greatest idea to 0:14:53.400 --> 0:14:57.120 begin with. What the use of title for you two did, 0:14:57.240 --> 0:15:01.480 and some called it a pretext to end a asylum claims, 0:15:01.600 --> 0:15:04.120 is that it expelled people before they could make an 0:15:04.120 --> 0:15:08.240 asylum claim. Correct, the normal law is that if anybody 0:15:08.280 --> 0:15:11.320 appears either at the port of entry or even in 0:15:11.360 --> 0:15:14.640 between the ports of entry, meaning they crossed the border illegally, 0:15:15.160 --> 0:15:18.280 the very first thing that happens is whoever encounters them 0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:20.560 has to ask them if they have a fear of 0:15:20.640 --> 0:15:23.960 being returned to the country that they take from, and 0:15:24.000 --> 0:15:25.800 if they do, they have to go through this intricate 0:15:25.880 --> 0:15:28.480 process that decides whether they can stay and make a 0:15:28.560 --> 0:15:30.720 claim here or not. And the point of Pride of 0:15:30.800 --> 0:15:33.520 forty two is it completely short circuited that in the 0:15:33.640 --> 0:15:37.600 anxiety events, we have a public health crisis. This crisis 0:15:37.640 --> 0:15:40.960 is of such intensity that we must not even ask 0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:44.520 you any questions. We must immediately turn you back into Mexico. 0:15:45.160 --> 0:15:47.520 And that's maybe the state of affairs for about two 0:15:47.600 --> 0:15:51.080 years now in the United States, and that created this 0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:54.920 massive backlog of people seeking asylum of the Mexican border. 0:15:55.600 --> 0:15:57.440 And we're going to wait to see how this plays 0:15:57.480 --> 0:16:01.200 out as Tide of forty two starts to uh wind down. 0:16:02.600 --> 0:16:06.200 That's my next question, because according to US Customs and 0:16:06.280 --> 0:16:09.400 Border Protection, more than one point six million migrants have 0:16:09.480 --> 0:16:14.040 been expelled under Title forty two since March of Some 0:16:14.160 --> 0:16:18.000 simply were returned to Mexico. So is there a build 0:16:18.080 --> 0:16:21.800 up of people waiting across when the policy is lifted? 0:16:22.720 --> 0:16:26.040 According to US Customs and Border Protection, more than one 0:16:26.080 --> 0:16:29.960 point six million migrants have been expelled under Title forty 0:16:29.960 --> 0:16:34.120 two since March of Some simply were returned to Mexico. 0:16:34.720 --> 0:16:38.120 So is there a build up of people waiting across 0:16:38.200 --> 0:16:41.400 when the policy is lifted. I think there's seeing three 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:45.520 types of individuals. First, within the one point million, there 0:16:45.520 --> 0:16:48.080 are a lot of repeat crossers who keep trying to 0:16:48.120 --> 0:16:50.880 get through and hope the title won't be applied to them. 0:16:50.960 --> 0:16:53.480 But having said that, there's a second group, which our 0:16:53.560 --> 0:16:57.080 people coming across the border. And these are people from Ukraine, 0:16:57.440 --> 0:17:02.920 from Russia, from the Karagwa, from Cuba, from Venezuela, from Colombia, 0:17:03.000 --> 0:17:06.560 from Brazil, Katie. All kinds of places around the world 0:17:06.720 --> 0:17:09.600 are sending people to the southern border. And so there 0:17:09.600 --> 0:17:13.240 are people already there waiting in Mexico and either standing 0:17:13.280 --> 0:17:17.080 Teabrow in San Diego or Brownville or laurezell pass O. 0:17:17.160 --> 0:17:20.680 There's people waiting all over the border. But in addition, 0:17:21.240 --> 0:17:24.879 once it becomes clearer that people will be able to 0:17:24.920 --> 0:17:27.680 come across the border, then the question is you start 0:17:27.760 --> 0:17:30.919 to see not just the people waiting there trying across, 0:17:30.920 --> 0:17:33.359 but people coming from all over the world, is right 0:17:33.400 --> 0:17:36.920 to answer. Through the southern border, the Secretary of Homeland 0:17:36.960 --> 0:17:41.360 Security was saying that they're prepared for this. What does 0:17:41.400 --> 0:17:45.520 it take to process someone when people arrive at the 0:17:45.600 --> 0:17:48.800 border and they say they're seeking asylum, Well, it's a 0:17:48.920 --> 0:17:51.840 very kind consuming process because for the very first thing 0:17:51.840 --> 0:17:54.959 you have to do is apprehend the individual or the family. 0:17:55.440 --> 0:17:58.000 And when they're you apprehending individual or the family, that 0:17:58.040 --> 0:18:01.000 will then depend on what kind of center their place into, 0:18:01.240 --> 0:18:04.880 whether they placed into a processing center that's holding families 0:18:05.000 --> 0:18:07.520 or a little kids, or whether they placed into one 0:18:07.560 --> 0:18:10.760 that's holding just signal adult. Then you have to take 0:18:10.800 --> 0:18:13.520 the fingerprints to make sure they're not a reduced crosser 0:18:14.000 --> 0:18:16.040 or that they actually have God forbid, some sort of 0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:20.280 criminal or terrorist record. And then once youven Tabli said send. 0:18:20.320 --> 0:18:23.320 The question is what the government wants to do in 0:18:23.359 --> 0:18:25.840 a situation where someone doesn't have any status at all 0:18:26.200 --> 0:18:29.280 is to do what's called an expedited removal order, which 0:18:29.280 --> 0:18:33.080 is to say we will we will re transmut you 0:18:33.160 --> 0:18:36.000 back to your home country as soon as possible, but 0:18:36.080 --> 0:18:39.840 What then happens is the defense to expedited removal is 0:18:39.880 --> 0:18:42.240 that you try to do that to me, I will 0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:46.560 be persecuted based on my rage, religion, national origin, social group, 0:18:46.680 --> 0:18:50.800 or political opinion. And here the government just has to say, well, 0:18:51.359 --> 0:18:54.399 does the person have what's called a credible fear, And 0:18:54.480 --> 0:18:57.159 a credible fear is a very very low threshold, and 0:18:57.280 --> 0:19:01.280 say we reason about possibility of think an asylum claim, 0:19:01.680 --> 0:19:06.040 and an asylum claim is considered even a one intent 0:19:06.240 --> 0:19:10.480 chance of persecution in your home country, So reasonable possibility 0:19:10.760 --> 0:19:13.520 I'm a one in contance of persecution is not a 0:19:13.640 --> 0:19:17.360 very high threshold. And in the Trump administration that got 0:19:17.400 --> 0:19:20.359 to as low as high sevties. In the Obama and 0:19:20.359 --> 0:19:23.240 the Biden administration has been at the low nineties. So 0:19:23.320 --> 0:19:26.159 somewhere between the high seventy percent and low ninety percent 0:19:26.240 --> 0:19:31.160 of people can meet this credible fear threshold. And then 0:19:31.200 --> 0:19:33.600 the question is what happens to them? And here it's 0:19:33.600 --> 0:19:36.760 a little bit dicey because there's still a litigation going 0:19:36.800 --> 0:19:40.439 on about remain in Mexico, which means that there's a 0:19:40.440 --> 0:19:43.440 court order that some number of these people still have 0:19:43.600 --> 0:19:46.680 to be sent back to Mexico to wait to make 0:19:46.760 --> 0:19:49.520 their asylum claims. So they've weighed in Mexico still the 0:19:49.640 --> 0:19:53.280 day of their immigration court hearing, whereas others are going 0:19:53.320 --> 0:19:55.879 to be allowed to enter the United States. And the 0:19:56.000 --> 0:19:58.560 question is, well, how is that going to be determined? 0:19:58.960 --> 0:20:00.879 And I think a lot of people will be monitoring 0:20:00.920 --> 0:20:03.920 that to see if there's either any kind of discriminatory 0:20:04.000 --> 0:20:06.679 treatment um who's getting in and who's getting out, or 0:20:06.720 --> 0:20:08.600 how many people are being forced to wait in the 0:20:08.640 --> 0:20:12.240 remaining Mexical program. And so there's a lot of that 0:20:12.520 --> 0:20:16.080 uncertainty that's going to be surrounding this ending of prilep 0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:20.080 forts too. To get asylum in this country. It's not 0:20:20.320 --> 0:20:23.520 enough that you want a better life economically. You want 0:20:23.520 --> 0:20:27.080 to you know, better your condition. So could the standard 0:20:27.119 --> 0:20:32.400 for credible fear be changed be made more difficult? Well, 0:20:32.440 --> 0:20:36.159 the problem is this is tasatory language from the ninety 0:20:36.240 --> 0:20:39.280 eighties that would have to be changed by Congress, and 0:20:39.400 --> 0:20:42.760 we know how difficult it is for Congress to change anything. 0:20:42.880 --> 0:20:45.880 And the standards could have been raised. The Trump administration 0:20:45.920 --> 0:20:49.400 would have raised the standards, But the Trump administration tried 0:20:49.480 --> 0:20:52.960 to do because it couldn't raise the standards for credible 0:20:53.000 --> 0:20:57.280 fear is it tries to basically take away the two 0:20:57.359 --> 0:21:02.280 kinds of asylum claims predominantly made by Central American asylum seekers, 0:21:02.400 --> 0:21:06.600 which were for males gang related claims, and that is 0:21:07.040 --> 0:21:09.359 that if you were asked to join the gang and 0:21:09.480 --> 0:21:13.080 you refuse, you you see into what's called the social groups, 0:21:13.200 --> 0:21:15.159 because you have to have persecution based from one of 0:21:15.200 --> 0:21:18.359 five factors. And so they were using social group to 0:21:18.520 --> 0:21:21.520 say I refused to join a gang. I'm a known 0:21:21.960 --> 0:21:24.439 entity who was used to join a gang, and so 0:21:24.640 --> 0:21:27.199 now the gang is gonna kill me, and the the 0:21:27.320 --> 0:21:30.200 government of my Central American country to do anything to 0:21:30.320 --> 0:21:33.920 solve that, and so the some administration really takes the 0:21:34.000 --> 0:21:37.679 Vietnam like that's not from the violent place, that doesn't count. 0:21:38.160 --> 0:21:40.720 And then for winning, the primary claim was that they 0:21:40.720 --> 0:21:44.199 were going to be victims of domestic violence and that 0:21:44.240 --> 0:21:46.679 they were being persecuted on the basis of being women 0:21:47.040 --> 0:21:50.359 because the government in whatever country in Central America that 0:21:50.400 --> 0:21:54.560 they were applying from was not seriously protecting domestic violence plays. 0:21:55.280 --> 0:21:59.359 And both of those were very foreclosed by the trump 0:21:59.359 --> 0:22:03.000 of Ministrates and the Biden administrations actually working on regulations 0:22:03.000 --> 0:22:06.600 to resuscitate those plays and so if that happens, you're 0:22:06.640 --> 0:22:09.439 likely to see more of these Central American claims. But 0:22:09.520 --> 0:22:14.159 in addition, you're seeing actual political asylum claims for people 0:22:14.200 --> 0:22:20.240 from Cuba, Nicaragua, and as Raila, Columbia, and the Ukrainians 0:22:20.280 --> 0:22:22.320 that are now coming across the border, of the Russians 0:22:22.359 --> 0:22:25.119 that are coming across the border. So even changing the 0:22:25.119 --> 0:22:28.480 same aren'thin't gonna work because there's actually quite a number 0:22:28.520 --> 0:22:33.080 of garden varieties, you know, brand backed normal asylum plays 0:22:33.359 --> 0:22:35.200 that we're starting to see on the border. So this 0:22:35.280 --> 0:22:38.920 is really a complicated situation for the president. Let's say 0:22:38.960 --> 0:22:42.600 you pass the credible fear interview, they release you at 0:22:42.640 --> 0:22:46.840 that point into the country awaiting a court right. So 0:22:46.920 --> 0:22:50.000 this is interesting too because there's a new regulation that 0:22:50.240 --> 0:22:54.960 the Biden administration actually promulgated that said that for some 0:22:55.119 --> 0:22:58.600 people who are apprehended at the border, they would not 0:22:58.760 --> 0:23:02.520 have to wait even for their court proceeding. They would 0:23:02.560 --> 0:23:07.560 actually get interviewed for their actual emerits asylum proceedings pretty 0:23:07.560 --> 0:23:09.840 soon after they arrived by a U. S c I 0:23:10.040 --> 0:23:14.040 s adjudicating officer, hoping that what they can do is 0:23:15.280 --> 0:23:18.399 lead out the successful claims. So most claims don't have 0:23:18.520 --> 0:23:21.439