Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.
Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Cool People who did cool stuff.
Speaker 2: You're a weekly reminder that I have a podcast and
Speaker 2: my name is Margaret Kiljoy, and we are doing a
Speaker 2: rerun week and this week the thing we are re
Speaker 2: running is Japanese anarchists, women who kept trying to kill emperors,
Speaker 2: because that's a thing that used to happen. And some
Speaker 2: of these people were real, neat and interesting, including one
Speaker 2: of my favorite love stories I've ever gotten to tell
Speaker 2: on this show. I guess I'm starting this one.
Speaker 3: Hi, Welcome jac it appened here. It's a show. If
Speaker 3: you're listening to this episode, you probably listened to the
Speaker 3: last one. I hope you so you know what it's about. Yeah,
Speaker 3: please do don't start with I mean, I guess you
Speaker 3: could start with this one, because this one is sort
Speaker 3: of wildly different from the last one.
Speaker 2: But this is when we're rewriting it so they all survive.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I don't. No one gets executed this episode. Yes,
Speaker 3: that is.
Speaker 2: That is a win. That's and the cosmists come, the
Speaker 2: Russian cosmos come, and they resurrect at least Kennikofumiko. The rest,
Speaker 2: give or take whatever. Maybe the children could be resurrected.
Speaker 2: That's how I would prioritize it in that order.
Speaker 3: That makes sense.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that voice you're hearing is Margaret Kiljoy, host.
Speaker 4: Of Cool, host of cpw DCS.
Speaker 1: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff, a cools On media
Speaker 1: podcast that is launching its first episode on May second,
Speaker 1: and episodes are every Monday and Wednesday. I did it.
Speaker 2: Okay ww, that's true. All the things are true, except
Speaker 2: the Cosmos part.
Speaker 3: The Cosmists.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 3: Maybe maybe maybe they'll still pull it off all right
Speaker 3: as as of yet, so we're gonna go back a
Speaker 3: little bit. We wentded the last episode in nineteen twenty three,
Speaker 3: nine twenty four with everyone sort of dead. But the
Speaker 3: reason that also didn't wipe out the anarchist movement was
Speaker 3: that does another sort of wing of it, and the
Speaker 3: other wing of it is in nineteen eighteen, nineteen seventeen,
Speaker 3: nineteen eighteen, labor movement in Japan re emerges, and it
Speaker 3: re emerges because there's the war, like Japan fights to
Speaker 3: over one and there's just like mass inflation and deprivation,
Speaker 3: and so even though striking is like unbelievably illegal, people
Speaker 3: do it anyways because the unhard. It is just starving
Speaker 3: to death. And so there's this reformist trade union that
Speaker 3: eventually becomes Japanese Confederation of Labor that swells in numbers
Speaker 3: about thirty thousand people and actually mentioned like thirty thousand
Speaker 3: people is like it doesn't sound like that big for
Speaker 3: a union. I think this is the biggest any union
Speaker 3: is going to get in this period. I think this
Speaker 3: union might get slightly bigger than that, but like, yeah,
Speaker 3: most of the unions don't crack twenty k because the
Speaker 3: size of the Japanese diustrial working class isn't that big,
Speaker 3: and also the amount of oppression is unbelievable. But you know,
Speaker 3: having thirty thousand people in your union means that your
Speaker 3: union is now the site of Japanese intro left conflict,
Speaker 3: which is wonderful.
Speaker 2: I mean there is actually like the fuck people up.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's there's like, you know, there's a period where
Speaker 3: everyone kind of gets along, like all of there was
Speaker 3: like everyone of the Japanese left knows each other, like
Speaker 3: all they're all dating each other, Like this is true,
Speaker 3: Like you know we've been talking about all the anarchis
Speaker 3: dating each other. The anarchists, the communists are all dating
Speaker 3: each other, like the reformists are also dating each other,
Speaker 3: Like they're all sort of like everyone knows each other,
Speaker 3: and for like a bit they're sort of able to
Speaker 3: get along. But with with the the Japanese Confederation of Labor,
Speaker 3: this lasts for like one year, and by nineteen twenty one,
Speaker 3: the anarchists and the Bolsheviks have split over the questions
Speaker 3: of the USSR after the anarchists published like Emma Goldman
Speaker 3: writing about how it's bad actually, and suddenly these two
Speaker 3: factions are like, yeah, these these actions are like fighting
Speaker 3: tooth and nail for control of like the entire left
Speaker 3: because like these see, these these groups are like the
Speaker 3: anarchists and communists are in every social movement, like they're
Speaker 3: in They're in labor, they're in the feminist movement, They're
Speaker 3: in this movement. They're like we haven't really talked about,
Speaker 3: but it's going on in the background of all of this,
Speaker 3: which is the uh Burakuman liberation movement. The burk Kumen
Speaker 3: are this like they're this like hereditary class. I'm pronouncing
Speaker 3: that extremely badly and I apologize, but this hereditary class
Speaker 3: and like the old fuel system, which is like technically
Speaker 3: abolish in the late teen hundreds, but like discrimination against
Speaker 3: them continues. It's it's very similar to like the like
Speaker 3: the untouchable, like the untouchables in India. And so they
Speaker 3: have this sort of movement and the anarchists back it,
Speaker 3: and the communists like waffle on it because they're Bolsheviks.
Speaker 3: It takes them like a while before they're like no, no, no,
Speaker 3: nineteen twenty five where we're fully backing this now. And
Speaker 3: so yeah, I mean that gets wrapped up in this
Speaker 3: this giant battle for the control of the left, and
Speaker 3: the battle for the control of the left leads to
Speaker 3: like one of history's most common alliances, which is Bolsheviks
Speaker 3: allying with reformists who like also favor like centralized control
Speaker 3: to fight the anarchists who don't want centralized control. Yeah,
Speaker 3: there are new things, ye know, in labor movement. This
Speaker 3: plays out in this battle over like where power is
Speaker 3: supposed to be in a union confederation. So you know,
Speaker 3: the question basically is it supposed to be in the
Speaker 3: federation bureaucracy like the people are like the sort of
Speaker 3: high level of the bureaucracy it stuff, or is it
Speaker 3: supposed to be in the unions who are like the
Speaker 3: part of this federation. And this has real consequences, you know,
Speaker 3: like in a lot of sort of centralized union federations,
Speaker 3: like the central union bureaucracy, the people who decide if
Speaker 3: you can strike or not. And you know, this is
Speaker 3: extremely useful to both reformist bureaucrats who want to make
Speaker 3: sure nobody goes on strike because they have their deal
Speaker 3: with the capitalists and they they don't want a revolution
Speaker 3: to happen. And it's also very useful for the Bolsheviks
Speaker 3: who want to make sure they can purge anyone who
Speaker 3: they don't like, and also want to make sure that
Speaker 3: the union movement is just like an extension of their politics.
Speaker 3: And so there's this huge battle and it ends with
Speaker 3: basically like both the Bolsheviks and the reformists pull out
Speaker 3: of the union.
Speaker 2: Whoa, so the anarchists win, yes sort of, well they
Speaker 2: they there's a victory. There's like nothing left. Yeah, well
Speaker 2: it's not.
Speaker 3: There's nothing. So like twenty thousand members go with the reformists,
Speaker 3: like twelve thousand go with the Bolsheviks, about eight thousand
Speaker 3: go with the anarchists.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, so.
Speaker 3: It's not the best, but they rebuild and into this
Speaker 3: phrase steps uh, arguably Japan's greatest anarchist theorists of this period,
Speaker 3: how to Shooso. And this guy is a character. He's
Speaker 3: he's he's barely known in Japan. I mean, there was
Speaker 3: a sort of like renaissance in how to Cheezo scholarship
Speaker 3: when this one guy named John Krupp wrote this book
Speaker 3: called how to Shooso, How to Shooso in Pure Anarchism
Speaker 3: and into War Japan, which is a mouthful of a title,
Speaker 3: But I'm just gonna keep plugging this because like this
Speaker 3: is the book that made me an anarchist. Like this
Speaker 3: is like I checked this book out from my library
Speaker 3: and I read it and I was like, oh my god,
Speaker 3: I'm an anarchist now. So yeah, yeah, he has he
Speaker 3: has like a okay, she has a wild story. He's
Speaker 3: born in He's born in Japan in December eighth, eighteen
Speaker 3: eighty six, and he sort of like bounces around like
Speaker 3: different manual labor jobs in Tokyo, and like at one
Speaker 3: point he wants to be like a he tries to
Speaker 3: be like I don't know if it's long, shortly, he
Speaker 3: wants to be like a sailor. So he gets on
Speaker 3: a boat and he's going to be a sailor, and
Speaker 3: then he, after like one sail ride to Taiwan, he
Speaker 3: immediately decides he doesn't want to be a sailor anymore.
Speaker 3: So he just gets off the boat and leaves and
Speaker 3: doesn't come back.
Speaker 2: I feel like that's what I would do if I
Speaker 2: just said, oh, yeah, like.
Speaker 3: That job, especially like the nineteen like twenties, that job
Speaker 3: seems awful.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're like, oh, I want adventure, and then you're like, oh,
Speaker 2: adventure means bad things happen.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like, I guess I understand why all these
Speaker 3: people are anarchists, because like that is a terrible job.
Speaker 3: But yeah, so she so winds up so just like
Speaker 3: wandering around Taiwan. And one of the things happens when
Speaker 3: he's wandering around Taiwan, by the way, is a Japanese
Speaker 3: colony at this point, Okay, And while he's wandering around Taiwan,
Speaker 3: he becomes a Christian and he like goes to school
Speaker 3: as like a theologian, but he drops out, but then
Speaker 3: he somehow still becomes a pastor. Because I don't know,
Speaker 3: this guy's career is wild. Uh No, She's always not
Speaker 3: like a noble pastor. He rapidly starts pissing off like
Speaker 3: everyone around him because he's like all of his sermons
Speaker 3: are just him and antagonizing rich people and preaching this
Speaker 3: like very very left wed in the gospital.
Speaker 2: He like read the Bible. Yeah, yeah, it's incredible that
Speaker 2: there's this great quote from a hot Chizu and peer
Speaker 2: anarchism been into war Japan about his time as a pastor.
Speaker 2: From like someone who was there, it was Pastor how
Speaker 2: To sermons were superb so much so that I thought
Speaker 2: it was a shame that more people were not there
Speaker 2: to hear them. It was like the Bible talking in
Speaker 2: the spirit of pure socialism. But one of my friends
Speaker 2: admired Pastor hat Is so much he asked him to
Speaker 2: celebrate his marriage. Yeah, and you know this like this
Speaker 2: does not make going around.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well it's funny because so he starts like as
Speaker 3: a Christian, right, but like he just like progressively keeps
Speaker 3: getting more and more left wing and keeps realizing that like, okay,
Speaker 3: so there's the Kingdom of God in heaven, right, but
Speaker 3: like what if we did that here? And like as
Speaker 3: he's getting like, as he's pissing off more of the
Speaker 3: church and as like they're they're they're in fighting, gets bigger,
Speaker 3: he's becoming just more and more of an anarchist, and
Speaker 3: by the end he just like gets he gets booted
Speaker 3: out by his church and he's just like, Okay, I'm
Speaker 3: an anarchist propagandist now. And so nineteen twenty four he
Speaker 3: just like leaves and he's like, well, I'm an anarchist now, okay,
Speaker 3: And Shoozo becomes what's known as a pure anarchist. And
Speaker 3: this is something that is like entirely unique to Japan
Speaker 3: that like there's nothing there's this doesn't exist anywhere else,
Speaker 3: and this is different than like like basically every other
Speaker 3: anarchist theorist and movement in Japan until this point has
Speaker 3: been like something you can find parallels with and other
Speaker 3: anarchist movements around the globe. Like there are nihilists and
Speaker 3: lots of countries. There's egoists everywhere, Like there's syndicalists literally
Speaker 3: in every country that's ever existed, and they mostly sort
Speaker 3: of believe the same things, you know, and you get
Speaker 3: some like like oh Czikai's like combination of egoism and
Speaker 3: syndicalism is like.
Speaker 2: It's cool but likes I like that idea, but yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: it's a good idea.
Speaker 3: But it's also not like it's like he's not like
Speaker 3: he's not the first person to ever do this right,
Speaker 3: And like the Japanese cyniccist movement is built in the
Speaker 3: mold of like the French Syndicalists and the CGT, which
Speaker 3: is this big union. Actually they're still around today. They're
Speaker 3: so in like the very early eighteen hundreds they were there,
Speaker 3: there were a sort of an arcosyndicalist union, like nineteen
Speaker 3: oh six, they have this famous charter. It's like anarchists.
Speaker 3: But then they go reformists and they like they vote
Speaker 3: for World War over one and now they're famous for
Speaker 3: uh there have been like twelve things that probably could
Speaker 3: have been a revolution in France if the CGT had
Speaker 3: ever a single time went to the barricades. And they
Speaker 3: never do, like it's never ever. That's like their whole thing,
Speaker 3: Like like they they set out Bay sixty eight, like
Speaker 3: that's yeah, this is a union. Yeah yeah, and they
Speaker 3: set out Bay sixty eight. It's like yeah, it's incredible,
Speaker 3: but you know the but you know, in like nineteen
Speaker 3: oh six, right, the Japanese are looking at it like
Speaker 3: cideicos looking at this like, oh my god, this this
Speaker 3: union has like millions of people in it, like it's enormous.
Speaker 3: It's a cynical union.
Speaker 2: Yeah, which is cool some time.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, And like you know, they they the Japanese
Speaker 3: anarchists do is sort of their standard syndicalist things like
Speaker 3: that they're building up democratic unions. They're like working courds,
Speaker 3: a general strike, the season music production. They're like fighting
Speaker 3: for a society or production is run by workers themselves.
Speaker 2: Blah blah blah.
Speaker 3: Blah, I shouldn blah blah blah blah. That's actually it's
Speaker 3: it's cool, it's fine. But pure anarchism is not that.
Speaker 2: I'm dying to know what pure anarchism is. This new
Speaker 2: anarchism just dropped. I'm excited years ago.
Speaker 3: It's it's kind of a it's it's a version of
Speaker 3: a naricle communism. But like what if you like really
Speaker 3: really rigorously applied in narco communism, and this is the
Speaker 3: this is the thing. It doesn't exist anywhere else because everywhere,
Speaker 3: like in the West and in Latin America, like syndicalism
Speaker 3: and anarchist and in arcal communism just like fuse to
Speaker 3: the point where like they're not really They're like, but
Speaker 3: there's not really they're not really separtendency like nobody's written
Speaker 3: in arco communist theory in like one hundred years, like
Speaker 3: like they say start you know, they've basically cease to
Speaker 3: be separate tendencies. But in Japan, the syndicalists of the
Speaker 3: an comms like fight it out to the death and
Speaker 3: this this produces pure anarchism and it rules. Weren't talk
Speaker 3: about what it is because it's both wonderful and incredibly
Speaker 3: silly at the same time. So okay, So to understand
Speaker 3: what they're arguing about, because this is this is this,
Speaker 3: this causes like a huge fracture in the anexist movements.
Speaker 3: I think we need to sort of like go into
Speaker 3: like the vulgar marxistconception of class structure that's kind of
Speaker 3: shared by the syndicalists. Okay, So okay, okay, so you're
Speaker 3: you're you're okay. The important thing about this is that
Speaker 3: like this doesn't work in Japan, like that the vulgar
Speaker 3: theory of like mark class structure, right, is that like, okay,
Speaker 3: so you're supposed to have the great dostro proletariat, Like
Speaker 3: if that's supposed to become a majority of the population.
Speaker 3: It's supposed to be unified and organized by like the
Speaker 3: discipline of the factory system, and the entire world is
Speaker 3: supposed to be reduced to two classes, like the burgeoisie
Speaker 3: and the proletariat, like one class of people who have
Speaker 3: nothing to sell with their labor. One class of people
Speaker 3: who exist purely to like extract wealth from people, because
Speaker 3: you entirely supports by owning things. And you know, eventually
Speaker 3: these are supposed to, like if you if you read
Speaker 3: your communist manifesto, eventually these two classes are supposed to
Speaker 3: like meet themselves in like a final conflict or the
Speaker 3: proletariat defeats it's called yeah, yeah, yeah, and you know,
Speaker 3: the portario defeats them, and then they abolish the conditions
Speaker 3: of their own existence as a class and you get stateless,
Speaker 3: classless money in this society. It's like a free association
Speaker 3: of workers. And this is what communism is. And famously
Speaker 3: this never happened. A yeah, what about the mortal science. Yeah,
Speaker 3: you know, well the the ordal science. Yeah, this this
Speaker 3: is the sort of this is the problem with the
Speaker 3: immortal science is that one, instead of unifying the industrial proletariat,
Speaker 3: capitalism like divides it and just sort of like like
Speaker 3: literally spatially like kicks them into suburbs, and you can
Speaker 3: get this sort of like the system where instead of
Speaker 3: like unifying everyone into one class, everyone is now this
Speaker 3: like completely alienated like boomer living in a suburb, even if.
Speaker 2: It's still work at a factory.
Speaker 3: And the other problem is that there's never just two classes.
Speaker 2: And this is the problem that like yeah, yeah, all
Speaker 2: the other ones are our enemies.
Speaker 3: Yeah, this word too, you know, but this is a
Speaker 3: real problem, right because like like the marks run into
Speaker 3: this in Russia, where it's like, okay, so we did
Speaker 3: our thing, we did our urban poltary and revolution, but
Speaker 3: like there's all these peasants and they don't like us
Speaker 3: because we keep taking their granted gunpoint and but but
Speaker 3: you know, you have you have this one problem and
Speaker 3: popular yeah, it goes great, right, nothing bad ever happens.
Speaker 3: They don't famously have to kill enormous numbers of these people.
Speaker 3: But then like, you know, so there's something weird happens,
Speaker 3: which is in China, u Stalin managed to get like
Speaker 3: the entire urb like the entire urban Chinese working class,
Speaker 3: like miltant working class killed, and so Mao has to
Speaker 3: like make a revolution with peasants, and so you know,
Speaker 3: peasants become the sort of like you know, this this
Speaker 3: sort of like this, this is what the actual revolution
Speaker 3: subject of communism wants up being, like from like China
Speaker 3: to Columbia, it is these peasants. But like, you know, okay,
Speaker 3: so your theory of the industrial poletariat is already down
Speaker 3: the toilet, and this is what Shoozo is reacting to you.
Speaker 3: Like he looks at Japanese society and there's like five
Speaker 3: people who you wage labor. Mostly there's this enormous like
Speaker 3: like forty fourteen million people who are tenant farmers who
Speaker 3: are like trying to suppoil their families on these like
Speaker 3: tiny plots of rented land. But you know, and like
Speaker 3: center Marxist theory is like, well, okay, these people will
Speaker 3: inevitably be absorbed into capitalism right by they'll be driven
Speaker 3: by competition or whatever to the market. But like they're not,
Speaker 3: it's not happening. They're just they're sitting there and they're
Speaker 3: still just really poor and paying their landlords and yeah, yeah, well,
Speaker 3: you just gotta wait for all of Japan to be like.
Speaker 2: Annihilated to be saved by the second point of yeah
Speaker 2: uh yeah, yeah, it's it's it's going great.
Speaker 3: But and it's also like there's all these other like
Speaker 3: classes too, Like there's there's these classes of like there's
Speaker 3: these like petty traders for example, or like they're like
Speaker 3: low level, like really low level government officials like like
Speaker 3: you know, you're like like a clerk for example, who
Speaker 3: just don't fit into this sort of class schement at all.
Speaker 3: Like if if if marks some things about like like
Speaker 3: small like I don't know, people who like cut would
Speaker 3: and then go into a town and sell it.
Speaker 2: Like they're like, well there's these people are perti bourgeois,
Speaker 2: like their reactionaries blah blah blah.
Speaker 3: And then there's this whole history of like anarchists organizing
Speaker 3: people like this who mark just just sort of like
Speaker 3: steer at Like Bolivia has this where like anarchists organize
Speaker 3: these like these indigenous like passive like they're not really passive,
Speaker 3: these indigenous artisans whose things like they did go to
Speaker 3: market and they sell their craft, and the Marxists were just.
Speaker 2: Like why do we care about these people, like why yeah,
Speaker 2: not workers, And it always seems like the better I
Speaker 2: don't know, whenever I was like presented with the basic
Speaker 2: analysis of like, Okay, we've got the proletariat who have
Speaker 2: terrible lives and factories, and then you have the lump
Speaker 2: and proletariat who refuse that kind of work and are
Speaker 2: like beggars and thieves and people doing work outside of
Speaker 2: the traditional system or whatever. And then you have the
Speaker 2: petty bourgeoisie who are like you know, own stores or
Speaker 2: artisans or whatever. And then you have the bourgeoisi over it.
Speaker 2: And this just always funny to me because I look
Speaker 2: at I'm like, well, clearly the only ones that would
Speaker 2: be worth being would be lump and proletariat or petty boogizzi,
Speaker 2: like they're the only ones who get to have any fun,
Speaker 2: Like yeah, you know.
Speaker 3: And I think like, like, this is a problem that
Speaker 3: that chooso sees. And I'm going to read part of U.
Speaker 3: Krupp's book about his solution to this, because I think
Speaker 3: it's really interesting. Given the failure of the available methods
Speaker 3: of class analysis to capture the subtleties of Japan's social structure,
Speaker 3: Hada developed a notion of the property list masses as
Speaker 3: an alternative concept of the proletariat. The property list masses
Speaker 3: was a wide ranching term which accompassed tenant farmers, small traders, officials, artisans,
Speaker 3: and even wage laborers. When they are prepared to forsake
Speaker 3: their preoccupation with narrowly defending advantages that accompany their urban lifestyle,
Speaker 3: and we're ready to throw in their lot with the
Speaker 3: other oppressed strata.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes sense. That's just the ninety nine percent,
Speaker 2: you know, it's the like or just the haves and
Speaker 2: have nots.
Speaker 3: It's like, okay, well it's it's kind of but but okay,
Speaker 3: there's there's a crucial difference here, which is that like, okay,
Speaker 3: so the other like the really big thing about the
Speaker 3: pure anarchists that they don't believe in.
Speaker 2: Class struggle, okay.
Speaker 3: And the reason why they don't believe in class struggle
Speaker 3: is that they think that, Okay. So they look at
Speaker 3: the history of the union movement, right, and it's like, okay,
Speaker 3: so has the union movement ended capitalism? It's like no,
Speaker 3: So like, well, okay, what does it actually do? And
Speaker 3: the answer is it gets people slightly more money out
Speaker 3: or capitalism, which is nice too, yeah, which which is nice,
Speaker 3: but it's also like shooso like adoptions to that. There's
Speaker 3: no other Japanese anarchists who who has this metaphor. It's
Speaker 3: like he compares it to like people fighting instead of
Speaker 3: like a bandit where it's like, okay, so if you
Speaker 3: have you have like fight, like the bosses of the
Speaker 3: bandit gang are obviously exploiting like the lower level people
Speaker 3: in the bandit gang. But you know, even if even
Speaker 3: if the lower level people in this bandit gang like
Speaker 3: take over, they're not actually going to stop being a
Speaker 3: bandit gang, right, It's just that the distribution of where
Speaker 3: the bandit gang wealth is going changes. And this is
Speaker 3: a big thing for for for the pianicists beause the
Speaker 3: pianarchists are you know, they they're looking at the industrial
Speaker 3: working classes like this is tiny and they're they're all
Speaker 3: exploding in the countryside mm hm. And so because of that,
Speaker 3: like they they look at this, they look at the
Speaker 3: union movement, and they look at it at like class struggle,
Speaker 3: like classical TM like class struggle, and they're like, well,
Speaker 3: this doesn't cause a revolution. All this does is just
Speaker 3: like sort of reorients like who's in power inside.
Speaker 2: Of what's what the Bolsheviks did, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but but it's it's not just what the bults,
Speaker 3: so they apply this to the Bolsheviks. But like it's
Speaker 3: also like there's analysis of what a union is is
Speaker 3: that you're like, class struggle is just defending your position
Speaker 3: at or capitalism, but you're also fighting very specifically narrowly
Speaker 3: for your class. Right, So if you're like a factory worker, right,
Speaker 3: you're fighting for you and the other factory workers. You're
Speaker 3: not fighting for like, I don't know, like a tenant farmer,
Speaker 3: you're not you're not even fighting from like for like
Speaker 3: the guy down the tree who bakes bread. It's like
Speaker 3: you're you know, the these these things that are like
Speaker 3: that are what they like instruments of class struggles, like
Speaker 3: your workers council, your union, your soviets. Like they don't
Speaker 3: actually get rid of class. It's just now another class
Speaker 3: has power, and it doesn't matter if it's sort of
Speaker 3: like this is what they're arguing. It is, like it
Speaker 3: doesn't matter if it's like democratic, it doesn't matter if
Speaker 3: it's like you know, like there's no difference in how
Speaker 3: the actual eventually the class and amas will play out
Speaker 3: it doesn't matter if it's like you know, like Lenin
Speaker 3: making like Stalin making himself dictator, or you have a
Speaker 3: bunch of democratic like Soviets, because they're both still intruents
Speaker 3: in class power. They're both sort of just going to
Speaker 3: reproduce this, this whole system. And yeah, and so they
Speaker 3: have this thing that they counterpose, which is like class
Speaker 3: struggle is just about what stuff is happening inside the system.
Speaker 3: But that's different revolution, which is like destroying this the
Speaker 3: system entirely. And this is where you get into his
Speaker 3: stuff about the division of labor, which is I think
Speaker 3: is really interesting because it I think this this sphere
Speaker 3: of pure anarchism got to a bunch of critiques of
Speaker 3: stuff that people have gotten to now, but they got
Speaker 3: to it in like nineteen twenty where okay, so choose those.
Speaker 3: Like one of his big things is that like the
Speaker 3: division of labor is inherently exploitative because it like it
Speaker 3: destroys sort of royal communal living and it replaces it
Speaker 3: with the centralization of expertise and a centralation of power.
Speaker 3: And he also thinks that like science is like a
Speaker 3: capitalist engine that's used to like create the division of labor.
Speaker 3: And then it's used to create like mechanization, and it's
Speaker 3: used to create like labor exploitation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that sounds like modern, a lot of like stuff
Speaker 2: that I read more modern.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, except this is like they're doing this
Speaker 3: in like like nineteen twenty seven.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because you know it else is a capitalist and
Speaker 2: of exploitation products and service the podcast Industrial Complex.
Speaker 3: It's true, and we're back with more things that are
Speaker 3: exploitative and the well, no resolution theoretically theoretically not yes, yes,
Speaker 3: but we have we have to get through. We have
Speaker 3: to get through the last exploitative thing, which is I
Speaker 3: think I talked a bit about this earlier. But like
Speaker 3: the puranarchists argue that like cities inherently are this concentration
Speaker 3: of wealthy resources and power, and so like farmers and
Speaker 3: workers need to work together to destroy all forms of power,
Speaker 3: including cities. And this sounds a lot like primitivism.
Speaker 2: Yeah it does, although you know, they wouldn't necessarily be
Speaker 2: like wrapping the farmers.
Speaker 4: And I think I think primitives might be the wrong term,
Speaker 4: but it's definitely a lot of like the anti tech stuff.
Speaker 3: Well, it's it's interesting, Okay, So they have they have
Speaker 3: like they threat this needle where so like there are
Speaker 3: people in this period who want to just go back
Speaker 3: to pure rural grarianism and don't want their to technology,
Speaker 3: and the pure anarchists are like, no, we still want technology,
Speaker 3: but we don't want the division of labor.
Speaker 2: So they're like, we like our reaping machines so we
Speaker 2: don't have to work as much when we're farming. We
Speaker 2: just don't want everyone to live in apartments.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean even the reaping machine. I don't know,
Speaker 3: like it's kind of unclear to me how this is
Speaker 3: exactly supposed to work, because like we'll get into this.
Speaker 3: I guess we can just get into this now, which
Speaker 3: is like okay, so they really don't like the division
Speaker 3: of labor because they think the division of labor like well, okay,
Speaker 3: they have they have like there's like three critiques of it.
Speaker 3: One is that like when you have a division of labor,
Speaker 3: labor becomes like mechanized industrialized, and when that happens, labor
Speaker 3: gets reduced to just like a cog you put in
Speaker 3: a machine mm hm. And they see this is like
Speaker 3: this is like an inherent like thing that happens with
Speaker 3: labor specializations. You just end up like being a person
Speaker 3: who makes one repetitive move in a factory over and
Speaker 3: over again, like you're not free because of this. And
Speaker 3: they also argue that like specialization means that people only
Speaker 3: care about like the labor that they do, and so
Speaker 3: this gives you like an identity that that divides workers
Speaker 3: from one sector, like say, if you're if you're you know,
Speaker 3: you're like a coal miner, right, your daily experience is
Speaker 3: so utterly different than a baker. And it's not just
Speaker 3: like your experience, it's like it's like your knowledge is different.
Speaker 3: The other person is not gonna like the baker is
Speaker 3: not going to understand what you're doing. And you know,
Speaker 3: keep wanting to argue against this political position that I know, old.
Speaker 3: I keep trying to be like no, no, no, that
Speaker 3: misunderstands the nature of specialization at all.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: But then I'm like, all right, I can't go back
Speaker 2: and convince these people. Yeah, I think like I think, okay,
Speaker 2: this is I'm gonna I'm gonna go. I'm gonna uh
Speaker 2: put on my my my marks, my like weird left
Speaker 2: Coom Marx noise and go.
Speaker 3: But it's a critique, not a platform.
Speaker 2: It's not they they actually wanted as a platform, but
Speaker 2: like I think it would have been a great critique
Speaker 2: and not a very good platform.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the platform. Yeah, I mean I think I think
Speaker 3: there's there's there're interesting elements of it. Like they have
Speaker 3: this argument that like, okay, so if if you have
Speaker 3: your like your your syndicalists, like society right where Okay,
Speaker 3: so you have a bunch of like you have a
Speaker 3: bunch of like coal miners, you have a bunch of
Speaker 3: people who like make pots and pans, But you need
Speaker 3: to coordinate your labor, okay, because because you you have
Speaker 3: like specialization, you have branches of labor. And their argument
Speaker 3: is that, okay, so well the Synacus way you do this.
Speaker 3: You have coordinated committees, right, you like elect a person
Speaker 3: you like, send them to a coordinating council, and the
Speaker 3: coordinating council like coordinates stuff.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 3: And she's like, well, that's just gonna choose those like
Speaker 3: things like that's just gonna turn into a state, Like
Speaker 3: you going to create a permanent class even even if
Speaker 3: you rotate people, You're you're you're creating an administrative body
Speaker 3: that's going to like rebuild the state again.
Speaker 2: And yeah, I like okay, Like I'm making this like
Speaker 2: shrugging gesture that the audience get like yeah, I got
Speaker 2: you know, yeah I don't Okay.
Speaker 3: So, like I don't think he's right about like most
Speaker 3: of this, Like I think he's sort of wrong about
Speaker 3: like almost all of it. The thing the thing that
Speaker 3: stuck with me though when I read this is like
Speaker 3: his specific critique of syndicalism, which is that it maintains
Speaker 3: like the structure of the old world. Because if you're
Speaker 3: a cyndicalist and your your society is based on unions
Speaker 3: running their workplaces, then you've maintained the division of labor,
Speaker 3: but you've also maintained like the basic like geographic, physical, technological,
Speaker 3: and organizational structure of capitalism, like all of the like
Speaker 3: all of that stuff is still in the same place,
Speaker 3: and you're still sort of like going there to do
Speaker 3: your job. And I think they're they're is an interesting
Speaker 3: sort of like like I think there was a genuinely
Speaker 3: interesting critique there of yeah, like how how do you
Speaker 3: make sure that you aren't just sort of reproducing that stuff?
Speaker 2: And like like I mean, I don't know, like.
Speaker 3: The critique of why would you want to build a
Speaker 3: society like structured along the lines of production, like why
Speaker 3: like why do you want to structure your society around work?
Speaker 2: Like that's awful. I like that about the peer anarchists,
Speaker 2: where they were kind of like let's let's let's throw
Speaker 2: away the Marxist ship for a minute and like just
Speaker 2: actually like figure out what we want, and like I
Speaker 2: like that about it. I goes, but I dislike the
Speaker 2: idea of like, well, it's it's it would be my
Speaker 2: problem with syndicalism, and most of the syndicalists I met
Speaker 2: believe in syndicalism as a method and not an end result. Right,
Speaker 2: it's a way of building workers' power, not a way
Speaker 2: to create a society. But but if syndiclusts were like
Speaker 2: everyone must wake up and go to their work job
Speaker 2: and then make eight widgets, but it's collectively determined which
Speaker 2: widgets that you make, right, Like fuck that. But also
Speaker 2: if it was like everyone goes and wakes up and
Speaker 2: goes to their collective farm and maybe we use reaping
Speaker 2: machines and maybe we don't, And it's just like I
Speaker 2: get so unexcited by It's like one of the reasons
Speaker 2: that like a lot of the like nitpicky branches of anarchism.
Speaker 2: Don't they interest me? But I don't like subscribe to
Speaker 2: any of them. Is because I'm like, well, what if
Speaker 2: some people like this shit, some people like this shit,
Speaker 2: like you know, maybe they're gonna be fucking different. Imagine
Speaker 2: that we could have a plurality of economic models systems.
Speaker 2: But you know whatever, I'm now arguing with dead people
Speaker 2: who I probably would like this is interesting, Like, well,
Speaker 2: I don't know, because these guys, like.
Speaker 3: The they have like the Maoist thing going on, where
Speaker 3: like they will like attack other leftist groups who like
Speaker 3: don't like follow their line. And so this is where
Speaker 3: this whole thing is wild because so one of the
Speaker 3: other things is like the the pure anarchists are like
Speaker 3: completely convinced that syndicalism is like a sort of like well,
Speaker 3: they think it's it's just like it's not an anarchist thing.
Speaker 3: It's just like a tendency the labor movement. And they
Speaker 3: also think that like it's basically like a bastardized form
Speaker 3: of Marxism, because they're.
Speaker 2: Not like entirely wrong about either of those things. But yeah,
Speaker 2: except for a different places and times.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it's like the thing that the thing that
Speaker 3: they have about it, like because they're they're completely convinced
Speaker 3: that syndicalism will inevitably just like turn into like Soviet communism.
Speaker 3: It's like, yeah, it's incredibly silly, but like like this,
Speaker 3: you know, I like on the one hand, like they
Speaker 3: are kind of inventing a lot of the sort of
Speaker 3: like like they're they're inventing a lot of the sort
Speaker 3: of like some okay, some bad arguments about uh uh
Speaker 3: like specialization and stuff like and like some anti work
Speaker 3: stuff too that like it is going to be around later. Yeah,
Speaker 3: they're also inventing a lot of stuff that's like and
Speaker 3: you know, initially this kind of like new theory doesn't
Speaker 3: have this doesn't have an enormous effect. In nineteen twenty six,
Speaker 3: the the Federation of Black Youth or Cocada and has
Speaker 3: its first public meeting and they have a bunch of
Speaker 3: cool slogans. There's the slogan's role they have the emancipation
Speaker 3: of workers must be carried out by the workers themselves.
Speaker 3: We insist on libertarian federation, destroy the political movement, get
Speaker 3: rid of reject the prolitarian party, get rid of professional activists,
Speaker 3: down with all oppressive laws and ordinances that entirely based platform. Yeah,
Speaker 3: all right, sweet, all right, it's it's good. Yeah, and
Speaker 3: you know the other things. Despite the fact that it's
Speaker 3: called the Federation of Black Youth, this is like not
Speaker 3: a youth I mean, I mean there's like youth in it,
Speaker 3: but like it's it's this thing's backed by like remember
Speaker 3: those those printers unions that I was talking about last
Speaker 3: episode that aside Psychai you had like set up. So
Speaker 3: they're all heavily involved in this, and they do a
Speaker 3: bunch of cool labor stuff, Like they get involved in like, uh,
Speaker 3: there's a bunch of tram worker strikes to get involved in.
Speaker 3: They're in this, uh, the Japanese Musical instrument company strike,
Speaker 3: which is like there's like over a thousand people on
Speaker 3: strike for like over one hundred days, and there's there's
Speaker 3: this great split where like so the leadership of the
Speaker 3: union is Bolshevik, but like a bunch of the like
Speaker 3: a bunch of the ordinary people in the union are anarchists,
Speaker 3: and so you have that there's there's like there's this fun.
Speaker 2: Tention going around.
Speaker 3: They're they're they're they're doing the stuff. And then the
Speaker 3: anarchist form Zengoku geterrand which is the All Japanese Libertarian
Speaker 3: Federation of Labor Unions, which is a it's a federation
Speaker 3: of twenty five unions.
Speaker 2: Wait, these are the pure anarchists that you're talking about
Speaker 2: that are doing all this.
Speaker 3: Oh so sorry at this point, they they haven't split yet.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, because this sounds like all the stuff that
Speaker 2: they said that they don't want to do.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well this is Look. The other the other wild
Speaker 3: thing about this is that like, okay, so the the
Speaker 3: entirety of like of like pur anarchist theory, right, is
Speaker 3: about how like unions don't do revolutions and class struggle,
Speaker 3: but like they still do strikes, like they still do
Speaker 3: all the normal stuff.
Speaker 2: It's kind of wild. Okay, I kind of like that, yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, and like and that that's sort of how
Speaker 2: they're able to get along in this early period. And
Speaker 2: these unions like, okay, so there's like a lot of
Speaker 2: printer's unions in this because the prince unions are just
Speaker 2: really anarchists. But there's there's like there's a tenant farmers union.
Speaker 2: There's a bunch of like rubber unions, and it grows
Speaker 2: to like fifteen thousand workers almost immediately, and yeah, they're
Speaker 2: doing a lot of cool stuff, like they have they
Speaker 2: have these huge demonstrations in support of socaqu and Vinzetti
Speaker 2: to the US is killing for being anarchists and also
Speaker 2: Italians just like yeah, the one time anti Italian racism
Speaker 2: was real and a hundred years ago, shit was real
Speaker 2: different than it is now and it doesn't.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. And for for one year this
Speaker 3: like this works great, you know, like the Yeah, the
Speaker 3: Union's up to like I think they get up to
Speaker 3: like twenty thousand and thirty thousand members. It gets pretty big.
Speaker 3: But then nineteen twenty seven, intense conflict between the syndicalists
Speaker 3: and the pure anarchists breakout. This gets so bad so
Speaker 3: fast that like the International working Man's Association, which is
Speaker 3: the like like the giant international like Federation of Syndicalist
Speaker 3: Movements like sends them a letter that are like, hey,
Speaker 3: syndicalists and arco communists get along every literally everywhere else
Speaker 3: on earth. They're chill, you guys like chill and the
Speaker 3: Archer communists in Cocador. And their response is we are
Speaker 3: fighting quote the betrayer's opportunists and union imperialists in Zengoku
Speaker 3: Juran's ranks.
Speaker 2: It's amazing. This is why they can't have nice things. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's great, it gets better, it gets better, so they
Speaker 2: always lose. Yeah, okay, Look in the nineteen twenty eight conference.
Speaker 2: So the Goka Juran which is the Union federation, like
Speaker 2: they have that, they have conference, they have the yearly
Speaker 2: conference that's in twenty eight, and there's just like giant
Speaker 2: battle over like what the organization's platform is going to
Speaker 2: be a thing that doesn't matter at all, except it's
Speaker 2: a proxy ideological fight, and both sides just start screaming
Speaker 2: at each other. And I'm going to read this description
Speaker 2: from Hanotchriso and Puranicism into Ward Japan. Uh huh.
Speaker 3: Coca Crau and members barricaded the barrack to the anarchists
Speaker 3: sindicalists jeering a cat calling them, and the proceedings degenerated
Speaker 3: to the level where it was almost impossible to hear
Speaker 3: the speeches. Eventually, the anarcho syndicalists decided they had had enough.
Speaker 3: Unflurling their black flags, they walked out of the hall
Speaker 3: to a chorus of taunts such as believers blind, believers
Speaker 3: in Central Authority, Bolsheviks and betrayers.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, got over yourself.
Speaker 4: Oh my.
Speaker 3: No, okay, to be fair to the pure anarchists, one
Speaker 3: of okay, a bunch of the Cynicalis unions start leaving,
Speaker 3: and one of them does actually joined the Bolsheviks, but
Speaker 3: like all the other ones don't because they're not. And
Speaker 3: you get this period that there's like they have like
Speaker 3: the Cyndicalists and that the Perianarchists of dueling magazines, this
Speaker 3: one called Black Flag, this one called Black Battle, and
Speaker 3: like so Cocuran, which is like the youth u mid thing,
Speaker 3: like the Cyneicalis and the anarchists are still in it together,
Speaker 3: and they like they start just like fighting each other
Speaker 3: in the street when they run into each other, because.
Speaker 2: The the this is more depressing than everyone's getting murdered
Speaker 2: after the earthquake, not the geniside incredible anarchists killing part. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, yeah, it's it's like it's incredible, you know,
Speaker 2: and like yeah they What's interesting about this though, is
Speaker 2: that like the inercal Communists, like when the union splits,
Speaker 2: like almost all of the people stay with the arcical Communists,
Speaker 2: even though the NCER Communists are like explicitly saying we're
Speaker 2: not fighting for like wage increases, we're just fighting for revolution,
Speaker 2: which fine, I'm all right with that. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Well, but there's interesting stuff to where like they're also
Speaker 3: so because they have this thing that's like, okay, so
Speaker 3: the urban workers are like exploiting the well, okay, the
Speaker 3: line about it is complicated because it's like they think
Speaker 3: the urban workers are exploiting the countryside, but they also
Speaker 3: don't think that the solution to it is to just
Speaker 3: like turn it the other way around. They think that
Speaker 3: like the workers and the tenant farmers just work together
Speaker 3: to like make the oppression go away, which is like
Speaker 3: a reasonable stance on it. Yeah, but it means that
Speaker 3: you know, they're interested in, like they're interested in the
Speaker 3: rural movement in a way that like the other Japanese
Speaker 3: left stoopings aren't. But unfortunately, you know, Okay, there's a
Speaker 3: big debate as to whether this split like actually like
Speaker 3: like how big a role this split had in the
Speaker 3: collapse of anarchism because like by by by, like by
Speaker 3: like nineteen thirty one, like the fascists have just straight
Speaker 3: up taken over Manchuria. Like I think things have gotten
Speaker 3: so fascist that it's like it's unclear whether the split
Speaker 3: mattered at all.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, but you know, they run into this problem
Speaker 2: where like like cokerne.
Speaker 3: Like the state really hates them, and they all a
Speaker 3: bunch of them get arrested and they you know, they
Speaker 3: respond to being arrested by like getting more militant. But
Speaker 3: then that just you know, that feels a cycle of
Speaker 3: them getting arrested for and people just leave because they're like, well, okay,
Speaker 3: if I'm in this organization, like we're all just gonna
Speaker 3: like get shot.
Speaker 2: I mean that's the Clendestiny spiral. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, it's a real problem, and like
Speaker 3: how to shoose to himself becomes just like incredibly depressed
Speaker 3: by the depression of the movement, and but nineteen thirty two,
Speaker 3: he just leaves like he's just out. He like renounces
Speaker 3: his anarchism. He abuses his wife because this is the
Speaker 3: story of a bunch of guys who sucked. And then
Speaker 3: he drinks himself to death.
Speaker 2: Evers. Yeah, yeah, well I guess okay he did it
Speaker 2: to him. He yeah, he drinks it all the death.
Speaker 2: He got it done on his own.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, so he he he he dies
Speaker 3: and he like kills himself. Well I don't think he
Speaker 3: was doing it on a purpose, but he just, yeah,
Speaker 3: dies from drinking too much. In nineteen thirty four, and
Speaker 3: that year actually the arco Communists narcos cendiclus like get
Speaker 3: back together. But it doesn't matter because by this point
Speaker 3: the fascists are just sort different power. And yeah, the
Speaker 3: anarchists they do, they do one last whirl uprising, okay,
Speaker 3: and they fight a lot of cops and then all
Speaker 3: of them get arrested and anarchism just sort of dies
Speaker 3: until the end of World War two, okay, And yeah
Speaker 3: it's you know, okay, anarchism does re emerge after the war,
Speaker 3: but that's like that, that's a whole another story entirely.
Speaker 3: What I will say about is if you see those
Speaker 3: those construction hats from the nineteen sixty eight protests, and
Speaker 3: you see one that's just all black, it doesn't have
Speaker 3: like a name written on it, like those are the anarchists.
Speaker 1: Cool?
Speaker 3: This still around and you know, anachistm Japan like survives
Speaker 3: to this day. There's a book called the Manual for
Speaker 3: a Worldwide for a worldwide Manuque revolts that like one
Speaker 3: day I swear to God, I'm actually going to read.
Speaker 3: But is really big in China. Well, okay, I said
Speaker 3: really big in China. It's very influential in a very
Speaker 3: small subcultural anarchist scene in China. But I'm talking about
Speaker 3: them because it heavily influenced. Like the people who wrote
Speaker 3: the Lying Flat Manifesto, We're like, we're very heavily influenced
Speaker 3: by this stuff. Oh okay, Okay, So we did the
Speaker 3: episode about this a while back, but Lying Flat was
Speaker 3: this thing in China, I guess a little going on,
Speaker 3: but like people were just like, it's kind of it
Speaker 3: was kind of the version of anti work or a
Speaker 3: lot of people like discovered diogenies and were like, what
Speaker 3: if I just didn't work all right? What if I
Speaker 3: just like lived on, like I worked like one day
Speaker 3: a month and then lived on like nothing so I
Speaker 3: didn't have to work, Or if I just quit. What
Speaker 3: if I just like stop doing all of this capitalist stuff,
Speaker 3: and what if I like stop having to deal with
Speaker 3: this patriarchy, and what if I just like, you know, yeah,
Speaker 3: and it takes kind of like yeah, yeah, they're they're great.
Speaker 3: They had lots of fun diogenies quotes, lots of like
Speaker 3: the manifesto they released is like very it's like very
Speaker 3: anarchist and yeah, like that whole thing. And that was
Speaker 3: like like this, this is a big enough social movement
Speaker 3: that like like Xi Jinping like mentioned it in a speech, okay,
Speaker 3: and so yeah, like Jeffi's anechism to the.
Speaker 4: State, Yeah, a big deal for them. They were like,
Speaker 4: hadn't kind of concerned about it. Yeah, this is the
Speaker 4: same way a whole bunch of like oligarchs got concerned
Speaker 4: about the anti work stuff. You saw like anti work
Speaker 4: hit pieces in the past like six months. It was, Yeah,
Speaker 4: it's like similar things being like, well, this better not
Speaker 4: catch on more because that could really suck for us.
Speaker 3: That's as optimistic of a note as you could possibly
Speaker 3: get out of the story, which is that they're still
Speaker 3: around and they still influenced things that matter, so.
Speaker 2: And hopefully they don't fight each other more than the state.
Speaker 3: Yeah, don't don't do that, Like I like, yes, I
Speaker 3: guess I will make my controversial sometimes it's okay to
Speaker 3: stab it a user inder the throat stance, but also
Speaker 3: don't purge all your syndicalists because on the accusation of Bolshevism,
Speaker 3: hot take, don't purge all.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, don't systematize violence like that. You know, you're like,
Speaker 2: this individual guy just did this thing, and I'm real
Speaker 2: upset that he just did it to me, and there's
Speaker 2: like a throat. I'm not actually making an actual advocacy.
Speaker 2: I'm talking about how sometimes when that has happened in history,
Speaker 2: that seemed kind of cool. But yeah, the not the
Speaker 2: systemic kick out all the people who have this minor
Speaker 2: I mean, it's really funny to me because I'm like,
Speaker 2: I'm like huge anti infighting, and then people are like,
Speaker 2: don't you spend all your time fighting tankies on the internet,
Speaker 2: And I'm like, they want to make a state. That's different. Yeah,
Speaker 2: they believe that they everyone should be thrown in jail.
Speaker 2: That is a different thing. Also, I don't like, you've
Speaker 2: got to manage to polycule drama. Like you gotta manage
Speaker 2: it's got to be kept under control. You cannot allow
Speaker 2: your retire scene to be factionalized over rival polydools and.
Speaker 4: Anarchists control your polycole drama. Quotations and parctesis impossible.
Speaker 2: See, that's why you just need more. No, maybe it's
Speaker 2: not true. It's like you need more multi generational anarchists,
Speaker 2: because I think people in their forties give less of
Speaker 2: a shit about a lot of the trauma. But then
Speaker 2: I'm like, maybe that's not true. Maybe people on their
Speaker 2: forties kept just as much of a shit about all
Speaker 2: the trauma.
Speaker 3: Anarchism wonderful idea.
Speaker 4: Yep, yeah, that's it.
Speaker 3: It's good.
Speaker 1: And speaking of wonderful ideas, it is timed for us
Speaker 1: to do the plugs.
Speaker 4: First.
Speaker 1: I just want to plug Jamie Loftus's new kool Zone
Speaker 1: Media podcast, Ghost Church by Jamie Loftus. By the time
Speaker 1: this drops, episode one will be out and episode.
Speaker 4: Two will be dropping with the next Monday, I believe.
Speaker 1: Yes exactly. And we also have another podcast on Kolzon
Speaker 1: Media with one Margaret Kiljoy called Cool People Who Did
Speaker 1: Cool Stuff? Margaret, you want to tell us about that?
Speaker 2: Oh, shoul? Should I start working on that. I'll get
Speaker 2: it done by Monday.
Speaker 4: Oh okay, cool.
Speaker 2: I have a new podcast called Cool People Who Did
Speaker 2: Cool Stuff, which is about cool people who did cool stuff,
Speaker 2: and you might like it if you like stories about
Speaker 2: people who I can't say cool stuff again, I'll have
Speaker 2: to use come up with more synonyms. Really, it's just
Speaker 2: all a competition to see how many synonyms for cool
Speaker 2: I can come up with without using the word based,
Speaker 2: because I feel like I'm too old to use the
Speaker 2: word based without Really, this is what you are here for.
Speaker 2: So I'm much more eloquent on my podcast, which you
Speaker 2: can catch every Monday and Wednesday wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 2: Probably wherever you got this podcast is where you can
Speaker 2: find it. And the trailer is out now, so you
Speaker 2: can go and you can listen to the trailer where
Speaker 2: I talk about some anarchist bank robbers who broke out
Speaker 2: of prison, because why would you be in prison when
Speaker 2: you could be outside of prison, which is generally the
Speaker 2: preferable position to be in, with the exception of like
Speaker 2: every now and then, like people break out of jail
Speaker 2: by like someone goes to jail on purpose, but they
Speaker 2: have like hacksaw blades in their shoes and shit, that
Speaker 2: would be cool too. So more breaking your friends out
Speaker 2: of jail and less chasing them out of the room
Speaker 2: jeering at them is my general rule. I hate to
Speaker 2: make rules, but if I were to make one, it
Speaker 2: would be that. And you can hear me talk about
Speaker 2: those kinds of stories on the podcast.
Speaker 4: Well, thank you so much for joining joining us today.
Speaker 4: Uh for for Chris to talk about the wonderful, wonderful
Speaker 4: history of Japanese Sandaris and the many and the many
Speaker 4: deaths that are associated in those poor people and yeah,
Speaker 4: the like so basically like a like a mini Korean genocide. Yeah, yeah, intense.
Speaker 4: Well that does it for us today. You can find
Speaker 4: us on Twitter, Instagram, what Happened to your pot and
Speaker 4: cool Zone Media. Uh see you next week.
Speaker 3: And go listen to podcasts.
Speaker 2: We have many of them.
Speaker 1: Wow it could happen here as a production of cool
Speaker 1: Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit
Speaker 1: our website cool Zonemedia dot com or check us out
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