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Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Cool People who did cool stuff.

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Speaker 2: You're a weekly reminder that I have a podcast and

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Speaker 2: my name is Margaret Kiljoy, and we are doing a

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Speaker 2: rerun week and this week the thing we are re

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Speaker 2: running is Japanese anarchists, women who kept trying to kill emperors,

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Speaker 2: because that's a thing that used to happen. And some

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Speaker 2: of these people were real, neat and interesting, including one

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Speaker 2: of my favorite love stories I've ever gotten to tell

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Speaker 2: on this show. I guess I'm starting this one.

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Speaker 3: Hi, Welcome jac it appened here. It's a show. If

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Speaker 3: you're listening to this episode, you probably listened to the

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Speaker 3: last one. I hope you so you know what it's about. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: please do don't start with I mean, I guess you

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Speaker 3: could start with this one, because this one is sort

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Speaker 3: of wildly different from the last one.

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Speaker 2: But this is when we're rewriting it so they all survive.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I don't. No one gets executed this episode. Yes,

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Speaker 3: that is.

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Speaker 2: That is a win. That's and the cosmists come, the

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Speaker 2: Russian cosmos come, and they resurrect at least Kennikofumiko. The rest,

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Speaker 2: give or take whatever. Maybe the children could be resurrected.

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Speaker 2: That's how I would prioritize it in that order.

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Speaker 3: That makes sense.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And that voice you're hearing is Margaret Kiljoy, host.

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Speaker 4: Of Cool, host of cpw DCS.

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Speaker 1: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff, a cools On media

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Speaker 1: podcast that is launching its first episode on May second,

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Speaker 1: and episodes are every Monday and Wednesday. I did it.

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Speaker 2: Okay ww, that's true. All the things are true, except

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Speaker 2: the Cosmos part.

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Speaker 3: The Cosmists.

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Speaker 2: I don't know.

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Speaker 3: Maybe maybe maybe they'll still pull it off all right

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Speaker 3: as as of yet, so we're gonna go back a

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Speaker 3: little bit. We wentded the last episode in nineteen twenty three,

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Speaker 3: nine twenty four with everyone sort of dead. But the

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Speaker 3: reason that also didn't wipe out the anarchist movement was

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Speaker 3: that does another sort of wing of it, and the

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Speaker 3: other wing of it is in nineteen eighteen, nineteen seventeen,

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Speaker 3: nineteen eighteen, labor movement in Japan re emerges, and it

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Speaker 3: re emerges because there's the war, like Japan fights to

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Speaker 3: over one and there's just like mass inflation and deprivation,

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Speaker 3: and so even though striking is like unbelievably illegal, people

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Speaker 3: do it anyways because the unhard. It is just starving

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Speaker 3: to death. And so there's this reformist trade union that

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Speaker 3: eventually becomes Japanese Confederation of Labor that swells in numbers

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Speaker 3: about thirty thousand people and actually mentioned like thirty thousand

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Speaker 3: people is like it doesn't sound like that big for

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Speaker 3: a union. I think this is the biggest any union

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Speaker 3: is going to get in this period. I think this

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Speaker 3: union might get slightly bigger than that, but like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: most of the unions don't crack twenty k because the

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Speaker 3: size of the Japanese diustrial working class isn't that big,

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Speaker 3: and also the amount of oppression is unbelievable. But you know,

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Speaker 3: having thirty thousand people in your union means that your

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Speaker 3: union is now the site of Japanese intro left conflict,

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Speaker 3: which is wonderful.

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Speaker 2: I mean there is actually like the fuck people up.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's there's like, you know, there's a period where

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Speaker 3: everyone kind of gets along, like all of there was

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Speaker 3: like everyone of the Japanese left knows each other, like

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Speaker 3: all they're all dating each other, Like this is true,

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Speaker 3: Like you know we've been talking about all the anarchis

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Speaker 3: dating each other. The anarchists, the communists are all dating

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Speaker 3: each other, like the reformists are also dating each other,

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Speaker 3: Like they're all sort of like everyone knows each other,

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Speaker 3: and for like a bit they're sort of able to

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Speaker 3: get along. But with with the the Japanese Confederation of Labor,

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Speaker 3: this lasts for like one year, and by nineteen twenty one,

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Speaker 3: the anarchists and the Bolsheviks have split over the questions

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Speaker 3: of the USSR after the anarchists published like Emma Goldman

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Speaker 3: writing about how it's bad actually, and suddenly these two

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Speaker 3: factions are like, yeah, these these actions are like fighting

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Speaker 3: tooth and nail for control of like the entire left

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Speaker 3: because like these see, these these groups are like the

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Speaker 3: anarchists and communists are in every social movement, like they're

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Speaker 3: in They're in labor, they're in the feminist movement, They're

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Speaker 3: in this movement. They're like we haven't really talked about,

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Speaker 3: but it's going on in the background of all of this,

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Speaker 3: which is the uh Burakuman liberation movement. The burk Kumen

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Speaker 3: are this like they're this like hereditary class. I'm pronouncing

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Speaker 3: that extremely badly and I apologize, but this hereditary class

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Speaker 3: and like the old fuel system, which is like technically

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Speaker 3: abolish in the late teen hundreds, but like discrimination against

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Speaker 3: them continues. It's it's very similar to like the like

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Speaker 3: the untouchable, like the untouchables in India. And so they

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Speaker 3: have this sort of movement and the anarchists back it,

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Speaker 3: and the communists like waffle on it because they're Bolsheviks.

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Speaker 3: It takes them like a while before they're like no, no, no,

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Speaker 3: nineteen twenty five where we're fully backing this now. And

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Speaker 3: so yeah, I mean that gets wrapped up in this

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Speaker 3: this giant battle for the control of the left, and

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Speaker 3: the battle for the control of the left leads to

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Speaker 3: like one of history's most common alliances, which is Bolsheviks

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Speaker 3: allying with reformists who like also favor like centralized control

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Speaker 3: to fight the anarchists who don't want centralized control. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: there are new things, ye know, in labor movement. This

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Speaker 3: plays out in this battle over like where power is

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Speaker 3: supposed to be in a union confederation. So you know,

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Speaker 3: the question basically is it supposed to be in the

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Speaker 3: federation bureaucracy like the people are like the sort of

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Speaker 3: high level of the bureaucracy it stuff, or is it

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Speaker 3: supposed to be in the unions who are like the

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Speaker 3: part of this federation. And this has real consequences, you know,

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Speaker 3: like in a lot of sort of centralized union federations,

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Speaker 3: like the central union bureaucracy, the people who decide if

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Speaker 3: you can strike or not. And you know, this is

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Speaker 3: extremely useful to both reformist bureaucrats who want to make

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Speaker 3: sure nobody goes on strike because they have their deal

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Speaker 3: with the capitalists and they they don't want a revolution

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Speaker 3: to happen. And it's also very useful for the Bolsheviks

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Speaker 3: who want to make sure they can purge anyone who

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Speaker 3: they don't like, and also want to make sure that

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Speaker 3: the union movement is just like an extension of their politics.

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Speaker 3: And so there's this huge battle and it ends with

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Speaker 3: basically like both the Bolsheviks and the reformists pull out

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Speaker 3: of the union.

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Speaker 2: Whoa, so the anarchists win, yes sort of, well they

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Speaker 2: they there's a victory. There's like nothing left. Yeah, well

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Speaker 2: it's not.

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Speaker 3: There's nothing. So like twenty thousand members go with the reformists,

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Speaker 3: like twelve thousand go with the Bolsheviks, about eight thousand

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Speaker 3: go with the anarchists.

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Speaker 2: Oh okay, so.

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Speaker 3: It's not the best, but they rebuild and into this

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Speaker 3: phrase steps uh, arguably Japan's greatest anarchist theorists of this period,

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Speaker 3: how to Shooso. And this guy is a character. He's

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Speaker 3: he's he's barely known in Japan. I mean, there was

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Speaker 3: a sort of like renaissance in how to Cheezo scholarship

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Speaker 3: when this one guy named John Krupp wrote this book

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Speaker 3: called how to Shooso, How to Shooso in Pure Anarchism

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Speaker 3: and into War Japan, which is a mouthful of a title,

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Speaker 3: But I'm just gonna keep plugging this because like this

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Speaker 3: is the book that made me an anarchist. Like this

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Speaker 3: is like I checked this book out from my library

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Speaker 3: and I read it and I was like, oh my god,

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Speaker 3: I'm an anarchist now. So yeah, yeah, he has he

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Speaker 3: has like a okay, she has a wild story. He's

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Speaker 3: born in He's born in Japan in December eighth, eighteen

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Speaker 3: eighty six, and he sort of like bounces around like

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Speaker 3: different manual labor jobs in Tokyo, and like at one

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Speaker 3: point he wants to be like a he tries to

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Speaker 3: be like I don't know if it's long, shortly, he

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Speaker 3: wants to be like a sailor. So he gets on

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Speaker 3: a boat and he's going to be a sailor, and

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Speaker 3: then he, after like one sail ride to Taiwan, he

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Speaker 3: immediately decides he doesn't want to be a sailor anymore.

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Speaker 3: So he just gets off the boat and leaves and

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Speaker 3: doesn't come back.

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Speaker 2: I feel like that's what I would do if I

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Speaker 2: just said, oh, yeah, like.

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Speaker 3: That job, especially like the nineteen like twenties, that job

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Speaker 3: seems awful.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you're like, oh, I want adventure, and then you're like, oh,

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Speaker 2: adventure means bad things happen.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like, I guess I understand why all these

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Speaker 3: people are anarchists, because like that is a terrible job.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, so she so winds up so just like

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Speaker 3: wandering around Taiwan. And one of the things happens when

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Speaker 3: he's wandering around Taiwan, by the way, is a Japanese

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Speaker 3: colony at this point, Okay, And while he's wandering around Taiwan,

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Speaker 3: he becomes a Christian and he like goes to school

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Speaker 3: as like a theologian, but he drops out, but then

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Speaker 3: he somehow still becomes a pastor. Because I don't know,

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Speaker 3: this guy's career is wild. Uh No, She's always not

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Speaker 3: like a noble pastor. He rapidly starts pissing off like

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Speaker 3: everyone around him because he's like all of his sermons

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Speaker 3: are just him and antagonizing rich people and preaching this

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Speaker 3: like very very left wed in the gospital.

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Speaker 2: He like read the Bible. Yeah, yeah, it's incredible that

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Speaker 2: there's this great quote from a hot Chizu and peer

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Speaker 2: anarchism been into war Japan about his time as a pastor.

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Speaker 2: From like someone who was there, it was Pastor how

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Speaker 2: To sermons were superb so much so that I thought

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Speaker 2: it was a shame that more people were not there

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Speaker 2: to hear them. It was like the Bible talking in

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Speaker 2: the spirit of pure socialism. But one of my friends

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Speaker 2: admired Pastor hat Is so much he asked him to

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Speaker 2: celebrate his marriage. Yeah, and you know this like this

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Speaker 2: does not make going around.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Well it's funny because so he starts like as

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Speaker 3: a Christian, right, but like he just like progressively keeps

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Speaker 3: getting more and more left wing and keeps realizing that like, okay,

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Speaker 3: so there's the Kingdom of God in heaven, right, but

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Speaker 3: like what if we did that here? And like as

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Speaker 3: he's getting like, as he's pissing off more of the

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Speaker 3: church and as like they're they're they're in fighting, gets bigger,

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Speaker 3: he's becoming just more and more of an anarchist, and

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Speaker 3: by the end he just like gets he gets booted

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Speaker 3: out by his church and he's just like, Okay, I'm

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Speaker 3: an anarchist propagandist now. And so nineteen twenty four he

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Speaker 3: just like leaves and he's like, well, I'm an anarchist now, okay,

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Speaker 3: And Shoozo becomes what's known as a pure anarchist. And

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Speaker 3: this is something that is like entirely unique to Japan

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Speaker 3: that like there's nothing there's this doesn't exist anywhere else,

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Speaker 3: and this is different than like like basically every other

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Speaker 3: anarchist theorist and movement in Japan until this point has

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Speaker 3: been like something you can find parallels with and other

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Speaker 3: anarchist movements around the globe. Like there are nihilists and

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Speaker 3: lots of countries. There's egoists everywhere, Like there's syndicalists literally

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Speaker 3: in every country that's ever existed, and they mostly sort

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Speaker 3: of believe the same things, you know, and you get

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Speaker 3: some like like oh Czikai's like combination of egoism and

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Speaker 3: syndicalism is like.

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Speaker 2: It's cool but likes I like that idea, but yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's a good idea.

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Speaker 3: But it's also not like it's like he's not like

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Speaker 3: he's not the first person to ever do this right,

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Speaker 3: And like the Japanese cyniccist movement is built in the

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Speaker 3: mold of like the French Syndicalists and the CGT, which

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Speaker 3: is this big union. Actually they're still around today. They're

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Speaker 3: so in like the very early eighteen hundreds they were there,

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Speaker 3: there were a sort of an arcosyndicalist union, like nineteen

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Speaker 3: oh six, they have this famous charter. It's like anarchists.

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Speaker 3: But then they go reformists and they like they vote

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Speaker 3: for World War over one and now they're famous for

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Speaker 3: uh there have been like twelve things that probably could

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Speaker 3: have been a revolution in France if the CGT had

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Speaker 3: ever a single time went to the barricades. And they

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Speaker 3: never do, like it's never ever. That's like their whole thing,

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Speaker 3: Like like they they set out Bay sixty eight, like

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Speaker 3: that's yeah, this is a union. Yeah yeah, and they

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Speaker 3: set out Bay sixty eight. It's like yeah, it's incredible,

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Speaker 3: but you know the but you know, in like nineteen

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Speaker 3: oh six, right, the Japanese are looking at it like

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Speaker 3: cideicos looking at this like, oh my god, this this

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Speaker 3: union has like millions of people in it, like it's enormous.

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Speaker 3: It's a cynical union.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, which is cool some time.

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Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, And like you know, they they the Japanese

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Speaker 3: anarchists do is sort of their standard syndicalist things like

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Speaker 3: that they're building up democratic unions. They're like working courds,

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Speaker 3: a general strike, the season music production. They're like fighting

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Speaker 3: for a society or production is run by workers themselves.

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Speaker 2: Blah blah blah.

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Speaker 3: Blah, I shouldn blah blah blah blah. That's actually it's

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Speaker 3: it's cool, it's fine. But pure anarchism is not that.

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Speaker 2: I'm dying to know what pure anarchism is. This new

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Speaker 2: anarchism just dropped. I'm excited years ago.

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Speaker 3: It's it's kind of a it's it's a version of

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Speaker 3: a naricle communism. But like what if you like really

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Speaker 3: really rigorously applied in narco communism, and this is the

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Speaker 3: this is the thing. It doesn't exist anywhere else because everywhere,

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Speaker 3: like in the West and in Latin America, like syndicalism

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Speaker 3: and anarchist and in arcal communism just like fuse to

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Speaker 3: the point where like they're not really They're like, but

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Speaker 3: there's not really they're not really separtendency like nobody's written

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Speaker 3: in arco communist theory in like one hundred years, like

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Speaker 3: like they say start you know, they've basically cease to

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Speaker 3: be separate tendencies. But in Japan, the syndicalists of the

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Speaker 3: an comms like fight it out to the death and

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Speaker 3: this this produces pure anarchism and it rules. Weren't talk

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Speaker 3: about what it is because it's both wonderful and incredibly

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Speaker 3: silly at the same time. So okay, So to understand

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Speaker 3: what they're arguing about, because this is this is this,

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Speaker 3: this causes like a huge fracture in the anexist movements.

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Speaker 3: I think we need to sort of like go into

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Speaker 3: like the vulgar marxistconception of class structure that's kind of

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Speaker 3: shared by the syndicalists. Okay, So okay, okay, so you're

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Speaker 3: you're you're okay. The important thing about this is that

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Speaker 3: like this doesn't work in Japan, like that the vulgar

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Speaker 3: theory of like mark class structure, right, is that like, okay,

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Speaker 3: so you're supposed to have the great dostro proletariat, Like

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Speaker 3: if that's supposed to become a majority of the population.

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Speaker 3: It's supposed to be unified and organized by like the

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Speaker 3: discipline of the factory system, and the entire world is

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Speaker 3: supposed to be reduced to two classes, like the burgeoisie

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Speaker 3: and the proletariat, like one class of people who have

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Speaker 3: nothing to sell with their labor. One class of people

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Speaker 3: who exist purely to like extract wealth from people, because

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Speaker 3: you entirely supports by owning things. And you know, eventually

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Speaker 3: these are supposed to, like if you if you read

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Speaker 3: your communist manifesto, eventually these two classes are supposed to

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Speaker 3: like meet themselves in like a final conflict or the

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Speaker 3: proletariat defeats it's called yeah, yeah, yeah, and you know,

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Speaker 3: the portario defeats them, and then they abolish the conditions

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Speaker 3: of their own existence as a class and you get stateless,

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Speaker 3: classless money in this society. It's like a free association

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Speaker 3: of workers. And this is what communism is. And famously

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Speaker 3: this never happened. A yeah, what about the mortal science. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: you know, well the the ordal science. Yeah, this this

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Speaker 3: is the sort of this is the problem with the

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Speaker 3: immortal science is that one, instead of unifying the industrial proletariat,

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Speaker 3: capitalism like divides it and just sort of like like

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Speaker 3: literally spatially like kicks them into suburbs, and you can

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Speaker 3: get this sort of like the system where instead of

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Speaker 3: like unifying everyone into one class, everyone is now this

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Speaker 3: like completely alienated like boomer living in a suburb, even if.

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Speaker 2: It's still work at a factory.

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Speaker 3: And the other problem is that there's never just two classes.

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Speaker 2: And this is the problem that like yeah, yeah, all

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Speaker 2: the other ones are our enemies.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this word too, you know, but this is a

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Speaker 3: real problem, right because like like the marks run into

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Speaker 3: this in Russia, where it's like, okay, so we did

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Speaker 3: our thing, we did our urban poltary and revolution, but

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Speaker 3: like there's all these peasants and they don't like us

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Speaker 3: because we keep taking their granted gunpoint and but but

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Speaker 3: you know, you have you have this one problem and

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Speaker 3: popular yeah, it goes great, right, nothing bad ever happens.

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Speaker 3: They don't famously have to kill enormous numbers of these people.

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Speaker 3: But then like, you know, so there's something weird happens,

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Speaker 3: which is in China, u Stalin managed to get like

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Speaker 3: the entire urb like the entire urban Chinese working class,

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Speaker 3: like miltant working class killed, and so Mao has to

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Speaker 3: like make a revolution with peasants, and so you know,

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Speaker 3: peasants become the sort of like you know, this this

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Speaker 3: sort of like this, this is what the actual revolution

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Speaker 3: subject of communism wants up being, like from like China

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Speaker 3: to Columbia, it is these peasants. But like, you know, okay,

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Speaker 3: so your theory of the industrial poletariat is already down

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Speaker 3: the toilet, and this is what Shoozo is reacting to you.

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Speaker 3: Like he looks at Japanese society and there's like five

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Speaker 3: people who you wage labor. Mostly there's this enormous like

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Speaker 3: like forty fourteen million people who are tenant farmers who

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Speaker 3: are like trying to suppoil their families on these like

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Speaker 3: tiny plots of rented land. But you know, and like

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Speaker 3: center Marxist theory is like, well, okay, these people will

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Speaker 3: inevitably be absorbed into capitalism right by they'll be driven

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Speaker 3: by competition or whatever to the market. But like they're not,

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Speaker 3: it's not happening. They're just they're sitting there and they're

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Speaker 3: still just really poor and paying their landlords and yeah, yeah, well,

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Speaker 3: you just gotta wait for all of Japan to be like.

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Speaker 2: Annihilated to be saved by the second point of yeah

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Speaker 2: uh yeah, yeah, it's it's it's going great.

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Speaker 3: But and it's also like there's all these other like

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Speaker 3: classes too, Like there's there's these classes of like there's

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Speaker 3: these like petty traders for example, or like they're like

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Speaker 3: low level, like really low level government officials like like

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Speaker 3: you know, you're like like a clerk for example, who

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Speaker 3: just don't fit into this sort of class schement at all.

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Speaker 3: Like if if if marks some things about like like

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Speaker 3: small like I don't know, people who like cut would

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Speaker 3: and then go into a town and sell it.

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Speaker 2: Like they're like, well there's these people are perti bourgeois,

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Speaker 2: like their reactionaries blah blah blah.

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Speaker 3: And then there's this whole history of like anarchists organizing

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Speaker 3: people like this who mark just just sort of like

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Speaker 3: steer at Like Bolivia has this where like anarchists organize

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Speaker 3: these like these indigenous like passive like they're not really passive,

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Speaker 3: these indigenous artisans whose things like they did go to

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Speaker 3: market and they sell their craft, and the Marxists were just.

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Speaker 2: Like why do we care about these people, like why yeah,

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Speaker 2: not workers, And it always seems like the better I

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Speaker 2: don't know, whenever I was like presented with the basic

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Speaker 2: analysis of like, Okay, we've got the proletariat who have

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Speaker 2: terrible lives and factories, and then you have the lump

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Speaker 2: and proletariat who refuse that kind of work and are

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Speaker 2: like beggars and thieves and people doing work outside of

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Speaker 2: the traditional system or whatever. And then you have the

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Speaker 2: petty bourgeoisie who are like you know, own stores or

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Speaker 2: artisans or whatever. And then you have the bourgeoisi over it.

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Speaker 2: And this just always funny to me because I look

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Speaker 2: at I'm like, well, clearly the only ones that would

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Speaker 2: be worth being would be lump and proletariat or petty boogizzi,

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Speaker 2: like they're the only ones who get to have any fun,

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Speaker 2: Like yeah, you know.

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Speaker 3: And I think like, like, this is a problem that

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Speaker 3: that chooso sees. And I'm going to read part of U.

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Speaker 3: Krupp's book about his solution to this, because I think

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Speaker 3: it's really interesting. Given the failure of the available methods

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Speaker 3: of class analysis to capture the subtleties of Japan's social structure,

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Speaker 3: Hada developed a notion of the property list masses as

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Speaker 3: an alternative concept of the proletariat. The property list masses

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Speaker 3: was a wide ranching term which accompassed tenant farmers, small traders, officials, artisans,

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Speaker 3: and even wage laborers. When they are prepared to forsake

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Speaker 3: their preoccupation with narrowly defending advantages that accompany their urban lifestyle,

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Speaker 3: and we're ready to throw in their lot with the

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Speaker 3: other oppressed strata.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes sense. That's just the ninety nine percent,

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Speaker 2: you know, it's the like or just the haves and

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Speaker 2: have nots.

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Speaker 3: It's like, okay, well it's it's kind of but but okay,

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Speaker 3: there's there's a crucial difference here, which is that like, okay,

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Speaker 3: so the other like the really big thing about the

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Speaker 3: pure anarchists that they don't believe in.

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Speaker 2: Class struggle, okay.

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Speaker 3: And the reason why they don't believe in class struggle

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Speaker 3: is that they think that, Okay. So they look at

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Speaker 3: the history of the union movement, right, and it's like, okay,

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Speaker 3: so has the union movement ended capitalism? It's like no,

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Speaker 3: So like, well, okay, what does it actually do? And

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Speaker 3: the answer is it gets people slightly more money out

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Speaker 3: or capitalism, which is nice too, yeah, which which is nice,

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Speaker 3: but it's also like shooso like adoptions to that. There's

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Speaker 3: no other Japanese anarchists who who has this metaphor. It's

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Speaker 3: like he compares it to like people fighting instead of

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Speaker 3: like a bandit where it's like, okay, so if you

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Speaker 3: have you have like fight, like the bosses of the

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Speaker 3: bandit gang are obviously exploiting like the lower level people

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Speaker 3: in the bandit gang. But you know, even if even

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Speaker 3: if the lower level people in this bandit gang like

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Speaker 3: take over, they're not actually going to stop being a

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Speaker 3: bandit gang, right, It's just that the distribution of where

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Speaker 3: the bandit gang wealth is going changes. And this is

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Speaker 3: a big thing for for for the pianicists beause the

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Speaker 3: pianarchists are you know, they they're looking at the industrial

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Speaker 3: working classes like this is tiny and they're they're all

401
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Speaker 3: exploding in the countryside mm hm. And so because of that,

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00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:36,359
Speaker 3: like they they look at this, they look at the

403
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Speaker 3: union movement, and they look at it at like class struggle,

404
00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:42,440
Speaker 3: like classical TM like class struggle, and they're like, well,

405
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Speaker 3: this doesn't cause a revolution. All this does is just

406
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Speaker 3: like sort of reorients like who's in power inside.

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Speaker 2: Of what's what the Bolsheviks did, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but but it's it's not just what the bults,

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Speaker 3: so they apply this to the Bolsheviks. But like it's

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Speaker 3: also like there's analysis of what a union is is

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Speaker 3: that you're like, class struggle is just defending your position

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Speaker 3: at or capitalism, but you're also fighting very specifically narrowly

413
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Speaker 3: for your class. Right, So if you're like a factory worker, right,

414
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Speaker 3: you're fighting for you and the other factory workers. You're

415
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Speaker 3: not fighting for like, I don't know, like a tenant farmer,

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Speaker 3: you're not you're not even fighting from like for like

417
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Speaker 3: the guy down the tree who bakes bread. It's like

418
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Speaker 3: you're you know, the these these things that are like

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Speaker 3: that are what they like instruments of class struggles, like

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Speaker 3: your workers council, your union, your soviets. Like they don't

421
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Speaker 3: actually get rid of class. It's just now another class

422
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Speaker 3: has power, and it doesn't matter if it's sort of

423
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Speaker 3: like this is what they're arguing. It is, like it

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Speaker 3: doesn't matter if it's like democratic, it doesn't matter if

425
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Speaker 3: it's like you know, like there's no difference in how

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Speaker 3: the actual eventually the class and amas will play out

427
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Speaker 3: it doesn't matter if it's like you know, like Lenin

428
00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:45,720
Speaker 3: making like Stalin making himself dictator, or you have a

429
00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:49,000
Speaker 3: bunch of democratic like Soviets, because they're both still intruents

430
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:50,359
Speaker 3: in class power. They're both sort of just going to

431
00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:56,480
Speaker 3: reproduce this, this whole system. And yeah, and so they

432
00:20:56,720 --> 00:21:00,480
Speaker 3: have this thing that they counterpose, which is like class

433
00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:03,280
Speaker 3: struggle is just about what stuff is happening inside the system.

434
00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:05,280
Speaker 3: But that's different revolution, which is like destroying this the

435
00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:08,240
Speaker 3: system entirely. And this is where you get into his

436
00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:11,359
Speaker 3: stuff about the division of labor, which is I think

437
00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:15,439
Speaker 3: is really interesting because it I think this this sphere

438
00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:18,600
Speaker 3: of pure anarchism got to a bunch of critiques of

439
00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:21,080
Speaker 3: stuff that people have gotten to now, but they got

440
00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:24,720
Speaker 3: to it in like nineteen twenty where okay, so choose those.

441
00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:26,600
Speaker 3: Like one of his big things is that like the

442
00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:30,399
Speaker 3: division of labor is inherently exploitative because it like it

443
00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:32,680
Speaker 3: destroys sort of royal communal living and it replaces it

444
00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:35,200
Speaker 3: with the centralization of expertise and a centralation of power.

445
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:38,440
Speaker 3: And he also thinks that like science is like a

446
00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:41,920
Speaker 3: capitalist engine that's used to like create the division of labor.

447
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:45,320
Speaker 3: And then it's used to create like mechanization, and it's

448
00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:47,240
Speaker 3: used to create like labor exploitation.

449
00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, that sounds like modern, a lot of like stuff

450
00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:51,359
Speaker 2: that I read more modern.

451
00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:54,639
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, except this is like they're doing this

452
00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:57,000
Speaker 3: in like like nineteen twenty seven.

453
00:21:57,440 --> 00:21:59,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, because you know it else is a capitalist and

454
00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:06,720
Speaker 2: of exploitation products and service the podcast Industrial Complex.

455
00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:21,000
Speaker 3: It's true, and we're back with more things that are

456
00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:27,160
Speaker 3: exploitative and the well, no resolution theoretically theoretically not yes, yes,

457
00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:29,080
Speaker 3: but we have we have to get through. We have

458
00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:30,879
Speaker 3: to get through the last exploitative thing, which is I

459
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:33,240
Speaker 3: think I talked a bit about this earlier. But like

460
00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:37,600
Speaker 3: the puranarchists argue that like cities inherently are this concentration

461
00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:42,200
Speaker 3: of wealthy resources and power, and so like farmers and

462
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:44,960
Speaker 3: workers need to work together to destroy all forms of power,

463
00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:49,720
Speaker 3: including cities. And this sounds a lot like primitivism.

464
00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,440
Speaker 2: Yeah it does, although you know, they wouldn't necessarily be

465
00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:55,320
Speaker 2: like wrapping the farmers.

466
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:57,280
Speaker 4: And I think I think primitives might be the wrong term,

467
00:22:57,320 --> 00:22:59,600
Speaker 4: but it's definitely a lot of like the anti tech stuff.

468
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:03,119
Speaker 3: Well, it's it's interesting, Okay, So they have they have

469
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:06,639
Speaker 3: like they threat this needle where so like there are

470
00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:09,600
Speaker 3: people in this period who want to just go back

471
00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:12,560
Speaker 3: to pure rural grarianism and don't want their to technology,

472
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:17,440
Speaker 3: and the pure anarchists are like, no, we still want technology,

473
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:18,879
Speaker 3: but we don't want the division of labor.

474
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,480
Speaker 2: So they're like, we like our reaping machines so we

475
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:25,000
Speaker 2: don't have to work as much when we're farming. We

476
00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:26,760
Speaker 2: just don't want everyone to live in apartments.

477
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean even the reaping machine. I don't know,

478
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:33,040
Speaker 3: like it's kind of unclear to me how this is

479
00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:37,560
Speaker 3: exactly supposed to work, because like we'll get into this.

480
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:39,520
Speaker 3: I guess we can just get into this now, which

481
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,720
Speaker 3: is like okay, so they really don't like the division

482
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:47,080
Speaker 3: of labor because they think the division of labor like well, okay,

483
00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:48,840
Speaker 3: they have they have like there's like three critiques of it.

484
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,440
Speaker 3: One is that like when you have a division of labor,

485
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:56,400
Speaker 3: labor becomes like mechanized industrialized, and when that happens, labor

486
00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:58,920
Speaker 3: gets reduced to just like a cog you put in

487
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 3: a machine mm hm. And they see this is like

488
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:04,119
Speaker 3: this is like an inherent like thing that happens with

489
00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:07,800
Speaker 3: labor specializations. You just end up like being a person

490
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:09,800
Speaker 3: who makes one repetitive move in a factory over and

491
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:14,040
Speaker 3: over again, like you're not free because of this. And

492
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:17,080
Speaker 3: they also argue that like specialization means that people only

493
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:20,200
Speaker 3: care about like the labor that they do, and so

494
00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,560
Speaker 3: this gives you like an identity that that divides workers

495
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,280
Speaker 3: from one sector, like say, if you're if you're you know,

496
00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:29,720
Speaker 3: you're like a coal miner, right, your daily experience is

497
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,840
Speaker 3: so utterly different than a baker. And it's not just

498
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,320
Speaker 3: like your experience, it's like it's like your knowledge is different.

499
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:37,040
Speaker 3: The other person is not gonna like the baker is

500
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:41,680
Speaker 3: not going to understand what you're doing. And you know,

501
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 3: keep wanting to argue against this political position that I know, old.

502
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:48,240
Speaker 3: I keep trying to be like no, no, no, that

503
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 3: misunderstands the nature of specialization at all.

504
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:51,440
Speaker 1: You know.

505
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:53,640
Speaker 2: But then I'm like, all right, I can't go back

506
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:58,879
Speaker 2: and convince these people. Yeah, I think like I think, okay,

507
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,399
Speaker 2: this is I'm gonna I'm gonna go. I'm gonna uh

508
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:06,080
Speaker 2: put on my my my marks, my like weird left

509
00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:07,200
Speaker 2: Coom Marx noise and go.

510
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,480
Speaker 3: But it's a critique, not a platform.

511
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 2: It's not they they actually wanted as a platform, but

512
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:14,359
Speaker 2: like I think it would have been a great critique

513
00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:15,480
Speaker 2: and not a very good platform.

514
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, the platform. Yeah, I mean I think I think

515
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:20,560
Speaker 3: there's there's there're interesting elements of it. Like they have

516
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,399
Speaker 3: this argument that like, okay, so if if you have

517
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:30,639
Speaker 3: your like your your syndicalists, like society right where Okay,

518
00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:32,720
Speaker 3: so you have a bunch of like you have a

519
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:34,639
Speaker 3: bunch of like coal miners, you have a bunch of

520
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 3: people who like make pots and pans, But you need

521
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 3: to coordinate your labor, okay, because because you you have

522
00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:46,159
Speaker 3: like specialization, you have branches of labor. And their argument

523
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:48,040
Speaker 3: is that, okay, so well the Synacus way you do this.

524
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:50,639
Speaker 3: You have coordinated committees, right, you like elect a person

525
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 3: you like, send them to a coordinating council, and the

526
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,320
Speaker 3: coordinating council like coordinates stuff.

527
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 1: Okay.

528
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:58,040
Speaker 3: And she's like, well, that's just gonna choose those like

529
00:25:58,080 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 3: things like that's just gonna turn into a state, Like

530
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:01,720
Speaker 3: you going to create a permanent class even even if

531
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,400
Speaker 3: you rotate people, You're you're you're creating an administrative body

532
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 3: that's going to like rebuild the state again.

533
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 2: And yeah, I like okay, Like I'm making this like

534
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:15,720
Speaker 2: shrugging gesture that the audience get like yeah, I got

535
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:17,880
Speaker 2: you know, yeah I don't Okay.

536
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 3: So, like I don't think he's right about like most

537
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 3: of this, Like I think he's sort of wrong about

538
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 3: like almost all of it. The thing the thing that

539
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,920
Speaker 3: stuck with me though when I read this is like

540
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:34,119
Speaker 3: his specific critique of syndicalism, which is that it maintains

541
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 3: like the structure of the old world. Because if you're

542
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,560
Speaker 3: a cyndicalist and your your society is based on unions

543
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:44,640
Speaker 3: running their workplaces, then you've maintained the division of labor,

544
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:49,800
Speaker 3: but you've also maintained like the basic like geographic, physical, technological,

545
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:54,119
Speaker 3: and organizational structure of capitalism, like all of the like

546
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:55,680
Speaker 3: all of that stuff is still in the same place,

547
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,359
Speaker 3: and you're still sort of like going there to do

548
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 3: your job. And I think they're they're is an interesting

549
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:03,640
Speaker 3: sort of like like I think there was a genuinely

550
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 3: interesting critique there of yeah, like how how do you

551
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:12,720
Speaker 3: make sure that you aren't just sort of reproducing that stuff?

552
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 2: And like like I mean, I don't know, like.

553
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:21,440
Speaker 3: The critique of why would you want to build a

554
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:25,119
Speaker 3: society like structured along the lines of production, like why

555
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:27,360
Speaker 3: like why do you want to structure your society around work?

556
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 2: Like that's awful. I like that about the peer anarchists,

557
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 2: where they were kind of like let's let's let's throw

558
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:35,119
Speaker 2: away the Marxist ship for a minute and like just

559
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 2: actually like figure out what we want, and like I

560
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 2: like that about it. I goes, but I dislike the

561
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:45,440
Speaker 2: idea of like, well, it's it's it would be my

562
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 2: problem with syndicalism, and most of the syndicalists I met

563
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:51,639
Speaker 2: believe in syndicalism as a method and not an end result. Right,

564
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 2: it's a way of building workers' power, not a way

565
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 2: to create a society. But but if syndiclusts were like

566
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 2: everyone must wake up and go to their work job

567
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,680
Speaker 2: and then make eight widgets, but it's collectively determined which

568
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 2: widgets that you make, right, Like fuck that. But also

569
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 2: if it was like everyone goes and wakes up and

570
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:11,440
Speaker 2: goes to their collective farm and maybe we use reaping

571
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 2: machines and maybe we don't, And it's just like I

572
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 2: get so unexcited by It's like one of the reasons

573
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:20,440
Speaker 2: that like a lot of the like nitpicky branches of anarchism.

574
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,159
Speaker 2: Don't they interest me? But I don't like subscribe to

575
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:26,400
Speaker 2: any of them. Is because I'm like, well, what if

576
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:29,640
Speaker 2: some people like this shit, some people like this shit,

577
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 2: like you know, maybe they're gonna be fucking different. Imagine

578
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:36,880
Speaker 2: that we could have a plurality of economic models systems.

579
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 2: But you know whatever, I'm now arguing with dead people

580
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 2: who I probably would like this is interesting, Like, well,

581
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 2: I don't know, because these guys, like.

582
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 3: The they have like the Maoist thing going on, where

583
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 3: like they will like attack other leftist groups who like

584
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 3: don't like follow their line. And so this is where

585
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 3: this whole thing is wild because so one of the

586
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:02,640
Speaker 3: other things is like the the pure anarchists are like

587
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 3: completely convinced that syndicalism is like a sort of like well,

588
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 3: they think it's it's just like it's not an anarchist thing.

589
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:11,680
Speaker 3: It's just like a tendency the labor movement. And they

590
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 3: also think that like it's basically like a bastardized form

591
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 3: of Marxism, because they're.

592
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 2: Not like entirely wrong about either of those things. But yeah,

593
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:21,240
Speaker 2: except for a different places and times.

594
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:23,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it's like the thing that the thing that

595
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 3: they have about it, like because they're they're completely convinced

596
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:30,600
Speaker 3: that syndicalism will inevitably just like turn into like Soviet communism.

597
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 3: It's like, yeah, it's incredibly silly, but like like this,

598
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 3: you know, I like on the one hand, like they

599
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 3: are kind of inventing a lot of the sort of

600
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 3: like like they're they're inventing a lot of the sort

601
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:52,239
Speaker 3: of like some okay, some bad arguments about uh uh

602
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,200
Speaker 3: like specialization and stuff like and like some anti work

603
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 3: stuff too that like it is going to be around later. Yeah,

604
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 3: they're also inventing a lot of stuff that's like and

605
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 3: you know, initially this kind of like new theory doesn't

606
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 3: have this doesn't have an enormous effect. In nineteen twenty six,

607
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 3: the the Federation of Black Youth or Cocada and has

608
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 3: its first public meeting and they have a bunch of

609
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 3: cool slogans. There's the slogan's role they have the emancipation

610
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 3: of workers must be carried out by the workers themselves.

611
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 3: We insist on libertarian federation, destroy the political movement, get

612
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 3: rid of reject the prolitarian party, get rid of professional activists,

613
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 3: down with all oppressive laws and ordinances that entirely based platform. Yeah,

614
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,160
Speaker 3: all right, sweet, all right, it's it's good. Yeah, and

615
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 3: you know the other things. Despite the fact that it's

616
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 3: called the Federation of Black Youth, this is like not

617
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 3: a youth I mean, I mean there's like youth in it,

618
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 3: but like it's it's this thing's backed by like remember

619
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 3: those those printers unions that I was talking about last

620
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:57,360
Speaker 3: episode that aside Psychai you had like set up. So

621
00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 3: they're all heavily involved in this, and they do a

622
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 3: bunch of cool labor stuff, Like they get involved in like, uh,

623
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 3: there's a bunch of tram worker strikes to get involved in.

624
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 3: They're in this, uh, the Japanese Musical instrument company strike,

625
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 3: which is like there's like over a thousand people on

626
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 3: strike for like over one hundred days, and there's there's

627
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:18,440
Speaker 3: this great split where like so the leadership of the

628
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:20,560
Speaker 3: union is Bolshevik, but like a bunch of the like

629
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:24,040
Speaker 3: a bunch of the ordinary people in the union are anarchists,

630
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:25,920
Speaker 3: and so you have that there's there's like there's this fun.

631
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:26,560
Speaker 2: Tention going around.

632
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 3: They're they're they're they're doing the stuff. And then the

633
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 3: anarchist form Zengoku geterrand which is the All Japanese Libertarian

634
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 3: Federation of Labor Unions, which is a it's a federation

635
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 3: of twenty five unions.

636
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 2: Wait, these are the pure anarchists that you're talking about

637
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 2: that are doing all this.

638
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 3: Oh so sorry at this point, they they haven't split yet.

639
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:48,160
Speaker 2: Oh okay, because this sounds like all the stuff that

640
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 2: they said that they don't want to do.

641
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, well this is Look. The other the other wild

642
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 3: thing about this is that like, okay, so the the

643
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 3: entirety of like of like pur anarchist theory, right, is

644
00:31:56,520 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 3: about how like unions don't do revolutions and class struggle,

645
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 3: but like they still do strikes, like they still do

646
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 3: all the normal stuff.

647
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 2: It's kind of wild. Okay, I kind of like that, yeah,

648
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:11,960
Speaker 2: you know, and like and that that's sort of how

649
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,680
Speaker 2: they're able to get along in this early period. And

650
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 2: these unions like, okay, so there's like a lot of

651
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 2: printer's unions in this because the prince unions are just

652
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:21,160
Speaker 2: really anarchists. But there's there's like there's a tenant farmers union.

653
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 2: There's a bunch of like rubber unions, and it grows

654
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 2: to like fifteen thousand workers almost immediately, and yeah, they're

655
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:29,840
Speaker 2: doing a lot of cool stuff, like they have they

656
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 2: have these huge demonstrations in support of socaqu and Vinzetti

657
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:37,320
Speaker 2: to the US is killing for being anarchists and also

658
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 2: Italians just like yeah, the one time anti Italian racism

659
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 2: was real and a hundred years ago, shit was real

660
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:50,120
Speaker 2: different than it is now and it doesn't.

661
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. And for for one year this

662
00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 3: like this works great, you know, like the Yeah, the

663
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:02,480
Speaker 3: Union's up to like I think they get up to

664
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:06,160
Speaker 3: like twenty thousand and thirty thousand members. It gets pretty big.

665
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 3: But then nineteen twenty seven, intense conflict between the syndicalists

666
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 3: and the pure anarchists breakout. This gets so bad so

667
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:16,960
Speaker 3: fast that like the International working Man's Association, which is

668
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 3: the like like the giant international like Federation of Syndicalist

669
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,720
Speaker 3: Movements like sends them a letter that are like, hey,

670
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 3: syndicalists and arco communists get along every literally everywhere else

671
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 3: on earth. They're chill, you guys like chill and the

672
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:36,760
Speaker 3: Archer communists in Cocador. And their response is we are

673
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 3: fighting quote the betrayer's opportunists and union imperialists in Zengoku

674
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 3: Juran's ranks.

675
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 2: It's amazing. This is why they can't have nice things. Yeah,

676
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,040
Speaker 2: it's great, it gets better, it gets better, so they

677
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 2: always lose. Yeah, okay, Look in the nineteen twenty eight conference.

678
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 2: So the Goka Juran which is the Union federation, like

679
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 2: they have that, they have conference, they have the yearly

680
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 2: conference that's in twenty eight, and there's just like giant

681
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:08,840
Speaker 2: battle over like what the organization's platform is going to

682
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:11,359
Speaker 2: be a thing that doesn't matter at all, except it's

683
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 2: a proxy ideological fight, and both sides just start screaming

684
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:17,240
Speaker 2: at each other. And I'm going to read this description

685
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 2: from Hanotchriso and Puranicism into Ward Japan. Uh huh.

686
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:25,320
Speaker 3: Coca Crau and members barricaded the barrack to the anarchists

687
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:30,319
Speaker 3: sindicalists jeering a cat calling them, and the proceedings degenerated

688
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 3: to the level where it was almost impossible to hear

689
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:36,239
Speaker 3: the speeches. Eventually, the anarcho syndicalists decided they had had enough.

690
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 3: Unflurling their black flags, they walked out of the hall

691
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 3: to a chorus of taunts such as believers blind, believers

692
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 3: in Central Authority, Bolsheviks and betrayers.

693
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 2: Oh my god, got over yourself.

694
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 4: Oh my.

695
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:55,600
Speaker 3: No, okay, to be fair to the pure anarchists, one

696
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:58,359
Speaker 3: of okay, a bunch of the Cynicalis unions start leaving,

697
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,840
Speaker 3: and one of them does actually joined the Bolsheviks, but

698
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:04,759
Speaker 3: like all the other ones don't because they're not. And

699
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:06,360
Speaker 3: you get this period that there's like they have like

700
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:10,040
Speaker 3: the Cyndicalists and that the Perianarchists of dueling magazines, this

701
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:12,880
Speaker 3: one called Black Flag, this one called Black Battle, and

702
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:15,759
Speaker 3: like so Cocuran, which is like the youth u mid thing,

703
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:17,719
Speaker 3: like the Cyneicalis and the anarchists are still in it together,

704
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 3: and they like they start just like fighting each other

705
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 3: in the street when they run into each other, because.

706
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:26,240
Speaker 2: The the this is more depressing than everyone's getting murdered

707
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 2: after the earthquake, not the geniside incredible anarchists killing part. Yeah,

708
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:37,160
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, yeah, it's it's like it's incredible, you know,

709
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:41,320
Speaker 2: and like yeah they What's interesting about this though, is

710
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:45,240
Speaker 2: that like the inercal Communists, like when the union splits,

711
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:48,400
Speaker 2: like almost all of the people stay with the arcical Communists,

712
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:51,120
Speaker 2: even though the NCER Communists are like explicitly saying we're

713
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:54,560
Speaker 2: not fighting for like wage increases, we're just fighting for revolution,

714
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 2: which fine, I'm all right with that. Yeah.

715
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,319
Speaker 3: Well, but there's interesting stuff to where like they're also

716
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:03,800
Speaker 3: so because they have this thing that's like, okay, so

717
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 3: the urban workers are like exploiting the well, okay, the

718
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:10,680
Speaker 3: line about it is complicated because it's like they think

719
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:12,759
Speaker 3: the urban workers are exploiting the countryside, but they also

720
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 3: don't think that the solution to it is to just

721
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:16,360
Speaker 3: like turn it the other way around. They think that

722
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:18,920
Speaker 3: like the workers and the tenant farmers just work together

723
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 3: to like make the oppression go away, which is like

724
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:24,279
Speaker 3: a reasonable stance on it. Yeah, but it means that

725
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 3: you know, they're interested in, like they're interested in the

726
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:28,560
Speaker 3: rural movement in a way that like the other Japanese

727
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 3: left stoopings aren't. But unfortunately, you know, Okay, there's a

728
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:37,320
Speaker 3: big debate as to whether this split like actually like

729
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:40,040
Speaker 3: like how big a role this split had in the

730
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 3: collapse of anarchism because like by by by, like by

731
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 3: like nineteen thirty one, like the fascists have just straight

732
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 3: up taken over Manchuria. Like I think things have gotten

733
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:54,879
Speaker 3: so fascist that it's like it's unclear whether the split

734
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 3: mattered at all.

735
00:36:56,640 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, but you know, they run into this problem

736
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:05,960
Speaker 2: where like like cokerne.

737
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:09,960
Speaker 3: Like the state really hates them, and they all a

738
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:11,799
Speaker 3: bunch of them get arrested and they you know, they

739
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:13,920
Speaker 3: respond to being arrested by like getting more militant. But

740
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:15,759
Speaker 3: then that just you know, that feels a cycle of

741
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:18,480
Speaker 3: them getting arrested for and people just leave because they're like, well, okay,

742
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:21,120
Speaker 3: if I'm in this organization, like we're all just gonna

743
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:21,879
Speaker 3: like get shot.

744
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 2: I mean that's the Clendestiny spiral. Yeah.

745
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, it's a real problem, and like

746
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 3: how to shoose to himself becomes just like incredibly depressed

747
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:33,480
Speaker 3: by the depression of the movement, and but nineteen thirty two,

748
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:36,680
Speaker 3: he just leaves like he's just out. He like renounces

749
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 3: his anarchism. He abuses his wife because this is the

750
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,600
Speaker 3: story of a bunch of guys who sucked. And then

751
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:44,759
Speaker 3: he drinks himself to death.

752
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:48,719
Speaker 2: Evers. Yeah, yeah, well I guess okay he did it

753
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:50,839
Speaker 2: to him. He yeah, he drinks it all the death.

754
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 2: He got it done on his own.

755
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:55,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, so he he he he dies

756
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:57,880
Speaker 3: and he like kills himself. Well I don't think he

757
00:37:57,960 --> 00:37:59,279
Speaker 3: was doing it on a purpose, but he just, yeah,

758
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:01,800
Speaker 3: dies from drinking too much. In nineteen thirty four, and

759
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 3: that year actually the arco Communists narcos cendiclus like get

760
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 3: back together. But it doesn't matter because by this point

761
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 3: the fascists are just sort different power. And yeah, the

762
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 3: anarchists they do, they do one last whirl uprising, okay,

763
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:17,359
Speaker 3: and they fight a lot of cops and then all

764
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:19,399
Speaker 3: of them get arrested and anarchism just sort of dies

765
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:23,399
Speaker 3: until the end of World War two, okay, And yeah

766
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 3: it's you know, okay, anarchism does re emerge after the war,

767
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,760
Speaker 3: but that's like that, that's a whole another story entirely.

768
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 3: What I will say about is if you see those

769
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:37,080
Speaker 3: those construction hats from the nineteen sixty eight protests, and

770
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:38,920
Speaker 3: you see one that's just all black, it doesn't have

771
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 3: like a name written on it, like those are the anarchists.

772
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:41,759
Speaker 1: Cool?

773
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:45,280
Speaker 3: This still around and you know, anachistm Japan like survives

774
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:48,759
Speaker 3: to this day. There's a book called the Manual for

775
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:52,319
Speaker 3: a Worldwide for a worldwide Manuque revolts that like one

776
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:53,920
Speaker 3: day I swear to God, I'm actually going to read.

777
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 3: But is really big in China. Well, okay, I said

778
00:38:56,640 --> 00:39:00,719
Speaker 3: really big in China. It's very influential in a very

779
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:05,719
Speaker 3: small subcultural anarchist scene in China. But I'm talking about

780
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 3: them because it heavily influenced. Like the people who wrote

781
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:14,840
Speaker 3: the Lying Flat Manifesto, We're like, we're very heavily influenced

782
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:19,480
Speaker 3: by this stuff. Oh okay, Okay, So we did the

783
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:21,360
Speaker 3: episode about this a while back, but Lying Flat was

784
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:23,160
Speaker 3: this thing in China, I guess a little going on,

785
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 3: but like people were just like, it's kind of it

786
00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:27,840
Speaker 3: was kind of the version of anti work or a

787
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:30,440
Speaker 3: lot of people like discovered diogenies and were like, what

788
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:32,880
Speaker 3: if I just didn't work all right? What if I

789
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 3: just like lived on, like I worked like one day

790
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:38,279
Speaker 3: a month and then lived on like nothing so I

791
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:40,000
Speaker 3: didn't have to work, Or if I just quit. What

792
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 3: if I just like stop doing all of this capitalist stuff,

793
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 3: and what if I like stop having to deal with

794
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:48,239
Speaker 3: this patriarchy, and what if I just like, you know, yeah,

795
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:52,080
Speaker 3: and it takes kind of like yeah, yeah, they're they're great.

796
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 3: They had lots of fun diogenies quotes, lots of like

797
00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:59,359
Speaker 3: the manifesto they released is like very it's like very

798
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:02,320
Speaker 3: anarchist and yeah, like that whole thing. And that was

799
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:04,320
Speaker 3: like like this, this is a big enough social movement

800
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:08,600
Speaker 3: that like like Xi Jinping like mentioned it in a speech, okay,

801
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:11,440
Speaker 3: and so yeah, like Jeffi's anechism to the.

802
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:13,560
Speaker 4: State, Yeah, a big deal for them. They were like,

803
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 4: hadn't kind of concerned about it. Yeah, this is the

804
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 4: same way a whole bunch of like oligarchs got concerned

805
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:23,279
Speaker 4: about the anti work stuff. You saw like anti work

806
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:26,279
Speaker 4: hit pieces in the past like six months. It was, Yeah,

807
00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:29,239
Speaker 4: it's like similar things being like, well, this better not

808
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:32,520
Speaker 4: catch on more because that could really suck for us.

809
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:45,960
Speaker 3: That's as optimistic of a note as you could possibly

810
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:47,960
Speaker 3: get out of the story, which is that they're still

811
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:50,680
Speaker 3: around and they still influenced things that matter, so.

812
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 2: And hopefully they don't fight each other more than the state.

813
00:40:56,640 --> 00:41:03,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, don't don't do that, Like I like, yes, I

814
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 3: guess I will make my controversial sometimes it's okay to

815
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:08,879
Speaker 3: stab it a user inder the throat stance, but also

816
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 3: don't purge all your syndicalists because on the accusation of Bolshevism,

817
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:17,440
Speaker 3: hot take, don't purge all.

818
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:23,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, don't systematize violence like that. You know, you're like,

819
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:26,319
Speaker 2: this individual guy just did this thing, and I'm real

820
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 2: upset that he just did it to me, and there's

821
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:30,880
Speaker 2: like a throat. I'm not actually making an actual advocacy.

822
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:33,280
Speaker 2: I'm talking about how sometimes when that has happened in history,

823
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:37,960
Speaker 2: that seemed kind of cool. But yeah, the not the

824
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 2: systemic kick out all the people who have this minor

825
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:45,440
Speaker 2: I mean, it's really funny to me because I'm like,

826
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:48,400
Speaker 2: I'm like huge anti infighting, and then people are like,

827
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 2: don't you spend all your time fighting tankies on the internet,

828
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:53,879
Speaker 2: And I'm like, they want to make a state. That's different. Yeah,

829
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:57,800
Speaker 2: they believe that they everyone should be thrown in jail.

830
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:07,799
Speaker 2: That is a different thing. Also, I don't like, you've

831
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:11,000
Speaker 2: got to manage to polycule drama. Like you gotta manage

832
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:14,640
Speaker 2: it's got to be kept under control. You cannot allow

833
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:17,640
Speaker 2: your retire scene to be factionalized over rival polydools and.

834
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:23,120
Speaker 4: Anarchists control your polycole drama. Quotations and parctesis impossible.

835
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:29,839
Speaker 2: See, that's why you just need more. No, maybe it's

836
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 2: not true. It's like you need more multi generational anarchists,

837
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:35,560
Speaker 2: because I think people in their forties give less of

838
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:38,040
Speaker 2: a shit about a lot of the trauma. But then

839
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:41,160
Speaker 2: I'm like, maybe that's not true. Maybe people on their

840
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:43,360
Speaker 2: forties kept just as much of a shit about all

841
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:43,880
Speaker 2: the trauma.

842
00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:49,400
Speaker 3: Anarchism wonderful idea.

843
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:52,880
Speaker 4: Yep, yeah, that's it.

844
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:53,399
Speaker 3: It's good.

845
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:57,640
Speaker 1: And speaking of wonderful ideas, it is timed for us

846
00:42:58,120 --> 00:42:59,560
Speaker 1: to do the plugs.

847
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:01,160
Speaker 4: First.

848
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 1: I just want to plug Jamie Loftus's new kool Zone

849
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:09,239
Speaker 1: Media podcast, Ghost Church by Jamie Loftus. By the time

850
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 1: this drops, episode one will be out and episode.

851
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:17,440
Speaker 4: Two will be dropping with the next Monday, I believe.

852
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 1: Yes exactly. And we also have another podcast on Kolzon

853
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:26,080
Speaker 1: Media with one Margaret Kiljoy called Cool People Who Did

854
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Speaker 1: Cool Stuff? Margaret, you want to tell us about that?

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Speaker 2: Oh, shoul? Should I start working on that. I'll get

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Speaker 2: it done by Monday.

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Speaker 4: Oh okay, cool.

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Speaker 2: I have a new podcast called Cool People Who Did

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Speaker 2: Cool Stuff, which is about cool people who did cool stuff,

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Speaker 2: and you might like it if you like stories about

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Speaker 2: people who I can't say cool stuff again, I'll have

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Speaker 2: to use come up with more synonyms. Really, it's just

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Speaker 2: all a competition to see how many synonyms for cool

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Speaker 2: I can come up with without using the word based,

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Speaker 2: because I feel like I'm too old to use the

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Speaker 2: word based without Really, this is what you are here for.

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Speaker 2: So I'm much more eloquent on my podcast, which you

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Speaker 2: can catch every Monday and Wednesday wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 2: Probably wherever you got this podcast is where you can

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Speaker 2: find it. And the trailer is out now, so you

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Speaker 2: can go and you can listen to the trailer where

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Speaker 2: I talk about some anarchist bank robbers who broke out

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Speaker 2: of prison, because why would you be in prison when

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Speaker 2: you could be outside of prison, which is generally the

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Speaker 2: preferable position to be in, with the exception of like

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Speaker 2: every now and then, like people break out of jail

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Speaker 2: by like someone goes to jail on purpose, but they

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Speaker 2: have like hacksaw blades in their shoes and shit, that

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Speaker 2: would be cool too. So more breaking your friends out

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Speaker 2: of jail and less chasing them out of the room

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Speaker 2: jeering at them is my general rule. I hate to

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Speaker 2: make rules, but if I were to make one, it

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Speaker 2: would be that. And you can hear me talk about

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Speaker 2: those kinds of stories on the podcast.

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Speaker 4: Well, thank you so much for joining joining us today.

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Speaker 4: Uh for for Chris to talk about the wonderful, wonderful

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Speaker 4: history of Japanese Sandaris and the many and the many

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Speaker 4: deaths that are associated in those poor people and yeah,

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Speaker 4: the like so basically like a like a mini Korean genocide. Yeah, yeah, intense.

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Speaker 4: Well that does it for us today. You can find

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Speaker 4: us on Twitter, Instagram, what Happened to your pot and

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Speaker 4: cool Zone Media. Uh see you next week.

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Speaker 3: And go listen to podcasts.

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Speaker 2: We have many of them.

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Speaker 1: Wow it could happen here as a production of cool

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Speaker 1: Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit

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Speaker 1: our website cool Zonemedia dot com or check us out

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Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen

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Speaker 1: to podcasts. You can find