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Speaker 1: When I was a kid, I was obsessed with the

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighties ABC primetime soap opera Dynasty. The series centered

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Speaker 1: on the wealthy Carrington family of Denver, Colorado, a patriarch

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Speaker 1: oil tycoon, and a cast of feuding family members. Let's

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Speaker 1: just say that I feel as I do because we

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Speaker 1: have so much in common, such as what our blood,

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Speaker 1: our teens. But that dynasty, for all its drama and dysfunction,

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Speaker 1: had nothing on the real life dynasties we're going to

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Speaker 1: talk about today, like the Habsburgs, the family that ruled

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Speaker 1: much of Europe for centuries.

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Speaker 2: These people are so powerful, I mean power over tens

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Speaker 2: of millions of people and gazillions of acres of land.

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Speaker 1: This royal family, however, was a little too close. The

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Speaker 1: final Habsburg, ruler of Spain, who died in seventeen hundred,

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Speaker 1: is considered to be the most inbred royal ever.

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Speaker 2: His Habsburg jaw was so pronounced that his two sets

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Speaker 2: of teeth couldn't touch at all. He couldn't keep food

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Speaker 2: in his mouth.

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Speaker 1: In this episode, we're going to look at the practices

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Speaker 1: of intermarriage and inbreeding among several major royal families and

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Speaker 1: how these practices built and in some cases led to

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Speaker 1: the unraveling of their respective empires.

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Speaker 2: The strategy for survival and for enhancement of power becomes,

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Speaker 2: especially in the Habsburg case, the recipe for its undoing.

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Speaker 1: From CBS Sunday Morning and iHeart I'm Moacca and this

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Speaker 1: is mobituaries, this moment, the Habsburg jaw and the death

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Speaker 1: of a dynasty. Royal families and inbreeding are they kind

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Speaker 1: of like peanut butter and jelly.

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Speaker 2: There are two great tastes that went great together mo

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Speaker 2: for a really long time.

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Speaker 1: I'm talking with my friend Caroline Weber. Carries a professor

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Speaker 1: of French and comparative literature at Barnard College and a

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Speaker 1: best selling author.

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Speaker 2: At the moment, I'm working on a book on royalty

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Speaker 2: around the world in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries.

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Speaker 2: And one of the amazing things to underscore is that

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Speaker 2: this kind of royal intermarriage really continued for a very

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Speaker 2: long time. Even though it led to the end of

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Speaker 2: some dynasties, It's persisted among a number of especially European dynasties.

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Speaker 2: And the most recent example, I think, in kind of

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Speaker 2: contemporary collective memory is the late Queen Elizabeth I and

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Speaker 2: Prince Philip who are cousins, Who.

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Speaker 1: Were cousins, and how close were their cousins.

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Speaker 2: They were third cousins, so not super close by royal standards.

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Speaker 2: They shared a common great great grandmother in Queen Victoria.

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Speaker 1: Marriage between royal relatives has many precedents. For example, scientists

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Speaker 1: believe that the parents of boy King Tutan, common in

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Speaker 1: ancient Egypt, were brother and sister. In ancient Rome, Emperor

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Speaker 1: Claudius married his niece Agrippina the Younger. But this practice

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Speaker 1: became super charged throughout Europe from the Late Middle Ages

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Speaker 1: around the year fifteen hundred all the way until the

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Speaker 1: outbreak of World War One in nineteen fourteen. Now, before

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Speaker 1: we get into it, let's define one word that's central

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Speaker 1: to this topic, consanguinity.

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Speaker 2: Consanguinity is a word that describes blood relatedness between people

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Speaker 2: who marry. If you were a king and you wanted

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Speaker 2: your children to be recognized as a king, you would

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Speaker 2: want to marry somebody who was perceived also to be

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Speaker 2: of royal blood, and that royal blood often meant that

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Speaker 2: they were in some way, shape or form related to you.

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Speaker 1: Wow, So consanguinity inter marriage equaled stability.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it did. It represented a few things. I mean,

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Speaker 2: on the one hand, consanguinity did mean concentrating family resources

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Speaker 2: and territories and keeping them as it were in the family.

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Speaker 2: So that was a big part of consanguinous marriages, this

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Speaker 2: idea that you weren't going to let hard won territories

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Speaker 2: in your kingdom potentially pass into the hands of a

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Speaker 2: rival king somewhere else. But the disadvantage, politically speaking, was

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Speaker 2: that consanguinity meant that you missed an opportunity to form

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Speaker 2: an alliance with a rival king who was not already

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Speaker 2: related to you.

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Speaker 1: So for a good stretch of history, the incentives to

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Speaker 1: intermarry were greater than the disincentives.

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Speaker 2: Yes, especially because the disincentives weren't very well known. I

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Speaker 2: think just the idea of genetics as an actual science

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Speaker 2: that didn't even start to come into being really until

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Speaker 2: the nineteenth century. So for hundreds of years when you intermarried,

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Speaker 2: the big incentive was this purity of your bloodline and

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Speaker 2: this kind of reinforced intrafamilial connection, which became more and

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Speaker 2: more meaningful as your family expanded its territory more and more.

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Speaker 2: And this is why the Hobsburgs are such a good

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Speaker 2: example or bad example of inbreeding.

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Speaker 1: Who were the Hobsburgs.

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Speaker 2: So the Hobsburgs were a royal family who traced their

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Speaker 2: origins to the early Middle Ages in Central and Eastern

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Speaker 2: Europe what we would call today Austria and Hungary.

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Speaker 1: The Habsburgs held some of their power through their relationship

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Speaker 1: with what was known as the Holy Roman Empire, a

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Speaker 1: vast Christian political entity in Europe modeled on the original

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Speaker 1: Roman Empire.

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Speaker 2: Since Charlemagne in the ninth century, Europe had had an

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Speaker 2: elected Holy Roman Emperor who was the defender of the

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Speaker 2: faith for all Catholics, but essentially the Habsburgs kept becoming

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Speaker 2: Holy Roman Emperor.

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Speaker 1: Enter Maximilian the First. He was a Habsburg and put

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Speaker 1: the family on the map quite literally with his election

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Speaker 1: as Holy Roman Emperor and by his marriage to Mary

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Speaker 1: of Burgundy.

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Speaker 2: Marie of Burgundy basically through her father had inherited much

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Speaker 2: of Burgundy in France, but also the Netherlands and some

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Speaker 2: territories kind of stretching into what we would today consider

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Speaker 2: to be Belgium. And when she married a member of

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Speaker 2: the Habsburg royal family, the Austrian Habsburgs then sort of

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Speaker 2: took over that whole swath of land as well.

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Speaker 1: Maximilian the First and Mary of Burgundy, who were not

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Speaker 1: closely related, had one surviving son. This son would expand

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Speaker 1: the Habsburg's influence even further than his father did.

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Speaker 2: This guy's son was known as Philip the Handsome Philippe

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Speaker 2: Leubel we called him in French. Philippe Leubel then crucially

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Speaker 2: married the last offshoot of a Spanish royal family known

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Speaker 2: as aragon and Castile. So most Americans have heard of

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Speaker 2: Ferdinand and Isabella. They sponsored Christopher Columbus's trip to the

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Speaker 2: New World. They had a daughter known as Juana the

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Speaker 2: Crazy Juana la Looca, and so some of the I

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Speaker 2: think the lunacy that the Habsburg's later evinced was actually

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Speaker 2: inherited from this woman, who was born a Castilian an

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Speaker 2: Aragonese princess. But she married a son of this Habsburg

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Speaker 2: Roman Emperor, Holy Roman Emperor called Philippe Leubel.

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Speaker 1: To recap Philip the Handsome, the only surviving son of

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Speaker 1: the Habsburg Emperor, marries Juana the Crazy, the heir to

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Speaker 1: the Spanish throne. This meant their descent and so would

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Speaker 1: inherit both the Habsburg and Spanish territories, and Guana la

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Speaker 1: Loca would be an amazing telenovellah I Love Betty leafea

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Speaker 1: which became Ugly Betty in the United States. It was

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Speaker 1: originally a Colombian telenovela. And yeah, and one on La

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Speaker 1: Loca would be amazing. It's just a great title already.

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Speaker 2: And she, by most accounts, really was insane.

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Speaker 1: But Juana and Philip's son had some sense. He ruled

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Speaker 1: as Charles the First of Spain and Charles the Fifth

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Speaker 1: of the Holy Roman Empire.

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Speaker 2: When Charles came of age, he made the very smart

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Speaker 2: decision that he wasn't going to try to be in

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Speaker 2: control of both Austria, Central Europe, Northern Europe and also Spain.

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Speaker 2: So he essentially split the Habsburgs into two branches, and

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Speaker 2: he founded the dynasty of Spanish Habsburgs as separate from

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Speaker 2: his Austrian Habsburg cousins.

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Speaker 1: The likeness of Charles quint as he's known has been

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Speaker 1: to pay did by a number of painters. They all

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Speaker 1: show him with a distinctive mandible.

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Speaker 2: So he did have what became known as the as

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Speaker 2: the Habsburg jaw, this very protuberant lower jaw, that kind

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Speaker 2: of jutted out. If you see there's a famous painting

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Speaker 2: of him by Titian where you can kind of see

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Speaker 2: he's got very sickly looking skin. He suffered from gout.

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Speaker 2: He may have suffered from epilepsy, which became a kind

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Speaker 2: of a hereditary habsburg condition. But the main thing is

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Speaker 2: the jaw, and the jaw kind of was often associated

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Speaker 2: with something that modern scientists call maxillary deficiency, where the

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Speaker 2: upper jaw kind of was sunken in. And the Titian

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Speaker 2: portrait of Charles Quint really shows a head that almost

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Speaker 2: looks like a cashew. It's kind of collapsed in the center,

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Speaker 2: with a bulbous forehead up top, and then this really

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Speaker 2: outwardly jutting jaw and underbite at the bottom.

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Speaker 1: An Italian writer named Antonio de Biats, who met Charles Quint,

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Speaker 1: wrote in fifteen seventeen that he had a long, avarice

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Speaker 1: face and a lopsided mouth which drops open when he

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Speaker 1: is not on his guard. So this King Charles wasn't

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Speaker 1: exactly Prince Charming, but his decision to divide the dynasty

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Speaker 1: between Spain and Austria would guarantee that his descendants would

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Speaker 1: be even less portrait Jenic.

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Speaker 2: His parents were not that closely interrelated. Charles quint was

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Speaker 2: not really the product of significant inbreeding, but because it

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Speaker 2: was his decision essentially to try to split the Habsburg

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Speaker 2: family into two branches of a royal family that together

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Speaker 2: ruled so much of Europe. His son became the Spanish

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Speaker 2: Habsburg King, who was really just in charge of Spain

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Speaker 2: and the Holy Roman Empire, and his younger brother, Charles

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Speaker 2: Quint's younger brother, Ferdinand I, became the head of the

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Speaker 2: Austrian branch of the family and ruling over Austria and

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Speaker 2: its associated territories. He really instituted, I think the policy

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Speaker 2: of significant innermarriage tween and among so what you then

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Speaker 2: have after Charles Quint is generations of Spanish Habsburg's marrying

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Speaker 2: Austrian habsburg to keep it, keep it all together.

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Speaker 1: Keep it all together. Yeah, by splitting the empire, he

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Speaker 1: actually encouraged incentivized intermarriage.

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Speaker 2: That's right, and that's why I think you find so

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Speaker 2: much more intermarriage in the Habsburg family than in other

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Speaker 2: European royal families.

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Speaker 1: So much so that a Latin motto was coined in

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Speaker 1: connection with the Habsburgs.

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Speaker 2: There's no evidence that they invented it themselves, but it

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Speaker 2: became one that was cited every time you saw news

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Speaker 2: of yet another Habsburg marriage. It would say, let other

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Speaker 2: nations wage war, You happy Austria conquer through marriage. Jamie

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Speaker 2: and I are more than brother and sister.

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Speaker 1: We shed a wound, came into this world together, we

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Speaker 1: belonged together. Contrary to what the Game of Thrones extended

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Speaker 1: universe might have you believe, Incest wasn't a personal preference

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Speaker 1: as much as it was a political strategy.

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Speaker 2: Because he really was trying to manage an empire that

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Speaker 2: was so vast. People forget that actually Mexico was part

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Speaker 2: of Charles Quint's empire. I mean, he claimed Mexico in

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Speaker 2: that obviously dubious and problematic colonialius way. He claimed the Philippines,

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Speaker 2: and so his empire really covered so much of the

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Speaker 2: globe that it didn't make sense for all of that

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Speaker 2: to be concentrated into one branch of one family. And

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Speaker 2: so by creating this kind of separate but equal branch

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Speaker 2: of the Austrian Habsburgs, he had a kind of a

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Speaker 2: constant pool of intermarriage where none of these territories would

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Speaker 2: go outside of the family.

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Speaker 1: Wow, they had so much power, and they were trying

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Speaker 1: to maintain that power.

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Speaker 2: That's right.

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Speaker 1: Is there any family today that's the equivalent God the Kardashians.

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Speaker 1: I was going to say, are they as powerful as

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Speaker 1: the Kardashians.

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Speaker 2: I think it's hard to tell, because, yeah, their brand

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Speaker 2: wasn't as beloved apparently as the Kardashians. But yeah, in

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Speaker 2: terms of ubiquity and everywhere you look, there they are.

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Speaker 2: There is a kind of a Kardashian effect that you see,

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Speaker 2: we haven't yet lived long enough and the Kardashians haven't

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Speaker 2: lived long enough for us to see what happens with

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Speaker 2: the children of Kim and Chloe and Courtney.

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Speaker 1: Well they do.

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Speaker 2: They have their own TV shows, those kids.

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Speaker 1: They will by the time this airs, and they have

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Speaker 1: delightful charles. They look great.

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Speaker 2: Oh right, yeah, well I do feel like that. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: the Kardashians have done a much better job of kind

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Speaker 2: of diversification in.

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Speaker 1: Marriage, and that's why the Kardashian dynasty will last even

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Speaker 1: centuries longer than the Hopspurs.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, I want you guys to be able to

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Speaker 2: do this. Tell you're my age and one of your

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Speaker 2: kids takes over, that's a whole that's the Joy.

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Speaker 1: Charles quint had a son who became Philip the Second

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Speaker 1: of Spain, who had a son called Philip the Third,

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Speaker 1: who had a son called Philip the.

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Speaker 2: Fourth, and they all interestingly and importantly married Austrian either

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Speaker 2: nieces or cousins.

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Speaker 1: And as the consanguinity picks up in pace, so do

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Speaker 1: its consequences.

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Speaker 2: Because the hobsburg is what you really see is just

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Speaker 2: generation after generation, the problems that we now either know

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Speaker 2: or suspect were genetically transmitted just get more and more pronounced.

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Speaker 1: Philip the Fourth and his niece slash wife had one

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Speaker 1: surviving son, who would be known as Charles the Second

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Speaker 1: or Charles the Bewitched due to his many infirmities.

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Speaker 2: Well, Charles the Second is important because he really represents

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Speaker 2: the worst of what can happen with these successive consanguineous

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Speaker 2: marriages from one generation to the next. His habsburg jaw

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Speaker 2: was so pronounced that his two sets of teeth couldn't

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Speaker 2: touch at all, he couldn't keep food in his mouth.

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Speaker 2: He never really mentally developed beyond the age of about

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Speaker 2: ten years old.

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Speaker 1: Charles was unable to speak until the age of four,

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Speaker 1: and he couldn't walk until the age of eight. He

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Speaker 1: looked elderly when he was only thirty years old, suffering

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Speaker 1: from edemas on his feet, legs, abdomen, and face in

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Speaker 1: his teeth not meeting his inability to chew. And this

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Speaker 1: is centuries before protein shakes. Like, there's right, I mean

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Speaker 1: the thunder straw has been invented probably at that point.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, how did he eat not well? And it wasn't pretty.

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Speaker 2: This is one of the fun things about studying royalty

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Speaker 2: is if you're in a Storian like me and you're

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Speaker 2: trying to read contemporary accounts, nobody wants ever to say

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Speaker 2: anything bad about the king, so you get a lot

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Speaker 2: of euphemisms like his majesty did not eat well tonight,

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Speaker 2: and you think, okay, does that mean that he could

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Speaker 2: barely get the food in or was it just a

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Speaker 2: disgusting spectacle? And these euphemisms you can never say definitively

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Speaker 2: what they mean, but you suspect that they hide a

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Speaker 2: thousand embarrassments.

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Speaker 1: Genetic analysis has determined that in the average Spanish Habsburg,

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Speaker 1: about ten percent of maternal and paternal genes were identical,

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Speaker 1: which means they were more closely inbread than the child

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Speaker 1: of two first cousins. By the time Charles the Bewitched

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Speaker 1: was born, the problem was even worse.

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Speaker 2: One of the takeaways from one of these scientific reports

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Speaker 2: was that even though Charles the Second's parents were quote

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Speaker 2: primarily or only uncle and niece, they were so closely

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Speaker 2: related already by the previous generations of inbreeding that they

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Speaker 2: were as closely related as brother and sister. So Charles

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Speaker 2: the Second really was the product of so much inbreeding

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Speaker 2: that essentially it was like his parents were siblings.

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Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. They tried to marry him off.

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Speaker 2: They tried to marry Charles the Second off, and it

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Speaker 2: did not go well because generally, one of the functions

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Speaker 2: of slightly idealized royal portraiture was that you could send

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Speaker 2: the equivalent of a photo to a foreign court and

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Speaker 2: say this is who you'll be marrying. And there are

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Speaker 2: countless stories throughout European history, at least, of massive dissipate

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Speaker 2: ointments and temper tantrums when the person actually shows up.

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Speaker 1: Some things never changed, some things never changed.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, now, I mean, I guess it's like what does

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Speaker 2: your Tinder photo look like? And how much have you

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Speaker 2: tinkered with it? But in the case of Charles the

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Speaker 2: second whatever miniature portrait of him was sent to the

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Speaker 2: court of France where he got his first bride, did

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Speaker 2: not reveal the full effect. So his first wife, Marie

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Speaker 2: Luise of.

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Speaker 1: Orleans, she swiped right.

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Speaker 2: She swiped right, or her parents swiped right for her.

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Speaker 2: When she got to Madrid and saw who her husband was,

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Speaker 2: apparently she had a nervous breakdown. Of course it had

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Speaker 2: to be restrained, and like dragged up to the altar screaming, and.

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Speaker 1: Did anyone say to her, honey, but his personality haha?

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Speaker 2: Well, sadly, because he couldn't really talk, we don't know

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Speaker 2: what his personality was. He didn't even have that going for.

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Speaker 2: He couldn't even cultivate the personality ride. He couldn't make

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Speaker 2: himself understood.

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Speaker 1: I'm suddenly reminded of Paul Rubens's bravura performance in the

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Speaker 1: sitcom Thirty Rock as the genetically compromised European Prince Gerhart Habsburg.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, all, dear friends, fuck on it to my

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Speaker 3: bad day.

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Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one. Yeah, would

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Speaker 1: he like to dance? Sadly, because my body does not

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Speaker 1: produce joint fluid, I cannot but I would enjoy watching

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Speaker 1: you dance moonbi Um, that depiction may not have been

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Speaker 1: so far off from reality. During the last years of

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Speaker 1: his life, Charles could barely stand up and suffered from

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Speaker 1: hallucinations and convulsive episodes. Charles the Bewitched died in seventeen

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Speaker 1: hundred at the age of thirty eight. According to his autopsy,

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Speaker 1: his corpse did not contain a single drop of blood.

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Speaker 1: His heart was the size of a peppercorn, his lungs corroded,

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Speaker 1: his intestines rotten and gangrenous, He had a single testicle

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Speaker 1: black as coal, and his head was water.

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Speaker 2: So he really became a poster child for what can

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Speaker 2: go wrong with interbreeding, and the line died with him

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Speaker 2: because he couldn't conceive a child by either one of

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Speaker 2: his wives.

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Speaker 1: And that has real repercussions. Yes, yeah, I.

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Speaker 2: Mean it basically threw the Spanish monarchy into a succession crisis,

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Speaker 2: and yeah, and a war, the War of that's known

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Speaker 2: as the War of Spanish Succession. There were claimants from

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Speaker 2: the Austrian side who said, well, we're Hafsburgs too, and

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Speaker 2: then you had the French who had a claim on

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Speaker 2: the throne of Spain.

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Speaker 1: The war of Spanish succession began in seventeen oh one

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Speaker 1: and went on for more than a decade, claiming more

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Speaker 1: than four hundred thousand lives in combat.

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Speaker 2: It was almost a generation of young people just grew

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Speaker 2: up with this war where it was unclear where the

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Speaker 2: throne was going to land, and so in terms of

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Speaker 2: drawbacks to consanguineous marriage and the genetic effects of that,

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Speaker 2: this is another one. Right, the dynasty, which has drawn

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Speaker 2: its legitimacy from a bloodline, dies out.

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Speaker 1: But while the Spanish Habsburg line died out with Charles

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Speaker 1: the Bewitched in seventeen hundred, the Austrian branch of the

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Speaker 1: Habsburgs kept going. After a short break. We'll meet one

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Speaker 1: Austrian Habsburg who could make this unsightly jaw look chic.

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Speaker 2: Marie Antoinette was a Habsburg. Can we go to Marintoinette?

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Speaker 3: Notte? When I went to the Queen the pot take

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Speaker 3: no bread for you know what? We fred let them

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Speaker 3: eat cake.

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Speaker 1: That's such nonsense. I would never say that. Marie Antoinette,

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Speaker 1: portrayed here by Kirsten Dunst in Sophia Coppola's twenty oh

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Speaker 1: six film, is probably the most famous Habsburg in history,

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Speaker 1: a product of the Austrian branch of the family. In

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Speaker 1: seventeen seventy, she was married off to the air to

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Speaker 1: the French throne, the future King Louis the sixteenth.

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Speaker 2: And he had significant Habsburg blood himself, because both Louis

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Speaker 2: the fourteenth and Louis the thirteenth had been married to

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Speaker 2: Habsburg first cousins of theirs.

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Speaker 1: I'm back with author and professor Caroline Webber.

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Speaker 2: So both she and her husband had this Habsburg blood line.

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Speaker 2: But she was the one who really visibly had something

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Speaker 2: of a Habsburg underbite, a kind of protuberant lower jaw

359
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Speaker 2: that I think people who didn't like her took to

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Speaker 2: be some kind of equivalent of resting bitch face. You

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Speaker 2: know that she always had this kind of haughty set

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Speaker 2: to her face because she also had a pendulous lower lip,

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Speaker 2: which was associated with the Habsburg jaw.

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Speaker 1: It was the pendulous lower lip.

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Speaker 2: The pendulous lower lip was basically just a lip that

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Speaker 2: would kind of hang low over the protuberant chin, and

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Speaker 2: she had something of that according to contemporary reports. By

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Speaker 2: most accounts, Marie Antoinette's version of these trees was not

369
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Speaker 2: crazily exacerbated. Her mother an Austrian princess and empress had

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Speaker 2: married a little bit outside of the bloodline into the

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Speaker 2: ducal House of Lorraine, and so Marie Antoinette got a

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Speaker 2: little bit of variety in the bloodline there. When she

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Speaker 2: came to France as an almost fifteen year old girl

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Speaker 2: in seventeen seventy, it had been a long time since

375
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Speaker 2: the French people had seen kind of a fresh faced, young, pretty,

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Speaker 2: fun loving teenage girl who was heir to the whole

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Speaker 2: thing by dint of being married to the future king.

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Speaker 2: And she became one of the first fashion celebrities in

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Speaker 2: eighteenth century Europe, realiant in the history of all of Europe,

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Speaker 2: and she was the first European royal whose likeness was

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Speaker 2: reproduced in kind of a primitive early version of fashion magazines,

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Speaker 2: which were these fashion illustrations. Those were generally quite idealizing

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Speaker 2: when they depicted her face. It didn't have a super

384
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Speaker 2: pronounced Hapsburg jaw. You'd maybe see a little hint of it,

385
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Speaker 2: and people who admired her and thought she was elegant

386
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Speaker 2: and liked the kind of crazy new way she liked

387
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Speaker 2: to dress wanted to look like her, So you might

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Speaker 2: see people kind of doing a poudy lip to try

389
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Speaker 2: to vaguely affect. Yeah, but they didn't have plastic surgery

390
00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:16,920
Speaker 2: back then, so there was no surgical method for making

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Speaker 2: your lower lip puff out a little bit. There is

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Speaker 2: a really funny story, for instance, of Marie Antoinette loved

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Speaker 2: experimental hairstyles, and we all know the kind of the

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Speaker 2: fashion plates and the portraits of her with like the

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Speaker 2: three foot high beehive headdress sometimes that had like a

396
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Speaker 2: fully rigged sailing ship ensconced in the in the coils

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Speaker 2: of her hair.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

399
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:43,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wrote a book about this year's ago, but

400
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Speaker 2: I mentioned it just to say anybody who wants to

401
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:48,359
Speaker 2: see the pictures I did reproduce as many as I

402
00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:50,399
Speaker 2: could in Queen of Fashion. But one thing that that

403
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:52,720
Speaker 2: I thought was so funny and really captures this kind

404
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:59,320
Speaker 2: of contemporary aspirational celebrity culture that could have some relationship

405
00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:02,120
Speaker 2: to like the card today where the King and Queen

406
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 2: are the ones who everybody knows about, who have all

407
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:06,880
Speaker 2: the money, who have all the power, who are everywhere

408
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:10,840
Speaker 2: all the time, and this invitation frenzy Marie Antoinette with

409
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 2: these crazy hairstyles apparently spawned tens of thousands of copycats,

410
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:18,879
Speaker 2: both in the upper classes where they could really afford

411
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:21,119
Speaker 2: to have somebody spend six hours on their hair teasing

412
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Speaker 2: it into a cathedral shape, or little working girls in

413
00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:26,119
Speaker 2: Paris who would just try to do what they could with,

414
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Speaker 2: like teasing in a comb. But one woman famously at court,

415
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 2: some kind of rich woman saw Marie Antoinette in a

416
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:35,639
Speaker 2: headdress that, instead of having flowers and pearls and ribbons,

417
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Speaker 2: like the sort of standard way would have been at

418
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:39,600
Speaker 2: Bearsies at that time, Marie Antoinette had a cabbage and

419
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Speaker 2: some carrots and like maybe a cucumber some other vegetables

420
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Speaker 2: in it, and was called her pouf a lajardigne, a

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00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:50,000
Speaker 2: gardener's poof. And this woman said, never again, where will

422
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:52,480
Speaker 2: I wear anything but vegetables in my hair? It looked

423
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,200
Speaker 2: so beautiful, your majesty, And this idea was people were

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00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:57,359
Speaker 2: desperate to look like the queen. So I think even

425
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Speaker 2: if she had a bit of a Habsburg jaw and

426
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:02,320
Speaker 2: a bit of a Habsburg pendulous lip, she did become

427
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Speaker 2: this kind of fashion icon who people wanted to resemble.

428
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Speaker 1: And what do you think she saw when she looked

429
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Speaker 1: in the mirror.

430
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Speaker 2: That's a great question, and you know Versailles was not

431
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Speaker 2: lacking in mirrors. Well, you know, the royal family had

432
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:14,240
Speaker 2: to walk through that huge hall of mirrors every day

433
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Speaker 2: on their way to lunch. So she I don't know.

434
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Speaker 2: I mean, she did complain that she felt like most

435
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 2: portraits painted of her didn't capture her her essence, But

436
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 2: I don't know if that's because the paintings were too

437
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:31,040
Speaker 2: idealized or not idealized enough. You know, we really don't know.

438
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 2: And because she was such a controversial figure, you know,

439
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:36,560
Speaker 2: France and Austria hadn't been allies for a really long

440
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 2: time in European history, and so when she came and

441
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:41,200
Speaker 2: married the future Louis the sixteenth, there were a number

442
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,840
Speaker 2: of people at court who were just opposed to her

443
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 2: presence there because she represented an alliance with Austria. So

444
00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 2: they would be the ones who would maybe go a

445
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,280
Speaker 2: little bit farther in talking about how ugly she was

446
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:54,359
Speaker 2: with this habsburg jaw, and the people who were partisans

447
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:56,840
Speaker 2: of her and the alliance she represented would talk about

448
00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:59,080
Speaker 2: how beautiful she was with all that in her hair,

449
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 2: with all that rough dinner hair. Kept her young. I mean,

450
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 2: she died at thirty seven. But who's to say how

451
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:05,440
Speaker 2: long she would have survived otherwise?

452
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:08,520
Speaker 1: Right head of Lettuce And then there's something there. Okay, no,

453
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 1: but you know, boy, that confidence she shows up in France.

454
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:14,640
Speaker 1: She's Austrian and she's like, this is how I'm gonna dress,

455
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 1: wear my hair.

456
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:18,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that she actually sort of not only presumed

457
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:21,399
Speaker 2: to dictate fashion to the French, but she kind of

458
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,960
Speaker 2: pioneered the concept of the French being the ones who

459
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:28,399
Speaker 2: were the people to beat when it came to fashion.

460
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 1: Is that where we get it from here? Yeah?

461
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,120
Speaker 2: I mean from her and from her and her husband's

462
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:35,320
Speaker 2: shared ancestor, Louis the fourteenth, He really kind of invented

463
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:39,480
Speaker 2: peacocking and power dressing for men, you know, the high heels,

464
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:43,119
Speaker 2: the red souls, the kind of early Christian lubautint, the

465
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 2: big wigs and the big hair and the ribbons and

466
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 2: the lace. And Louis the fourteenth became a walking billboard

467
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:52,159
Speaker 2: for the French luxury industries, and he understood that France,

468
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:54,919
Speaker 2: in order to kind of fill its coffers, needed to

469
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 2: have these these luxury exports that it could do better

470
00:26:57,600 --> 00:26:59,880
Speaker 2: than anyone else, like lace, like silk. But he really

471
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,360
Speaker 2: kind of took the fashion plate concept to an extreme

472
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 2: in terms of how kings could power dress and show

473
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 2: you just how much money they had. But he wasn't

474
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 2: interested in trends per se. Marie Antoinette when she came

475
00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:13,199
Speaker 2: to France in seventeen seventy, Paris was just starting to

476
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 2: become a place where what we now know is fast

477
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:19,359
Speaker 2: fashion was coming into being, where there was a whole

478
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 2: sub industry of women who weren't allowed by guild law

479
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,120
Speaker 2: to make dresses or make hats, but they could make

480
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:26,920
Speaker 2: the trimmings that you put on dresses and the trimmings

481
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 2: you put on hats, and those became the trends that

482
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 2: you could wear and kind of change every day to

483
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:34,760
Speaker 2: change your look all the time. And Marie Antoinette really

484
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:40,440
Speaker 2: became the royal god parent of that phenomenon and spawned

485
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:42,639
Speaker 2: the French fashion industry as we still know it today.

486
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 1: The queen eventually fell out of fashion with her French subjects.

487
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 1: Here she is portrayed in nineteen thirty eight by film

488
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 1: actress Norma Shearer.

489
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 3: People threw stones at the carriage. They threw stones and

490
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 3: shall have ill sums. I'm trembling still. Those pale faces

491
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,680
Speaker 3: full of hatreds shouting what's being shouted all over front

492
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:13,399
Speaker 3: for an Austrian leech.

493
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:17,880
Speaker 1: I suppose you can only speculate, But do you think

494
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 1: that when she looked in the mirror that the hair,

495
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 1: the clothes, everything around it was I don't know. I

496
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 1: don't want to say a way of compensating for the

497
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 1: jah on the lip, but a way of like anyone

498
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 1: would like I would if I looked and I saw

499
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 1: I don't like that about me. Yeah, I'll do this

500
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 1: to balance it out, to draw attention.

501
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 2: Indeed, if you wear a three foot high headdress on

502
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 2: your head, you are going to kind of direct the

503
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 2: eye away from your pendulous lower lip and you're extruding

504
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 2: habsbrug jaw. And it would explain why she gravitated toward

505
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 2: that trend. Of all possible trends, I mean, there are

506
00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 2: all kinds of crazy things that she could do in

507
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 2: the name of fashion, but to choose specifically as your

508
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 2: signature hairstyle, this gigantic, bulbous, three foot high construction, you

509
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:09,960
Speaker 2: do think that that must have really softened the chin.

510
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 1: In the end, of course, Marie Antoinette took it on

511
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,480
Speaker 1: the chin and much more when she and her husband

512
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 1: were beheaded On the other side of the break. Did

513
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:25,960
Speaker 1: centuries of royal inbreeding lead to World War One? The

514
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:30,600
Speaker 1: downfall of more defective and despotic dynasties coming up next?

515
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 1: Europeans throughout these centuries, did they not imagine another way

516
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:47,080
Speaker 1: of doing things other than dynastic rule?

517
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,400
Speaker 2: I mean, I think so much of the symbolic strength

518
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 2: of monarchy in Europe from the Middle Ages too, maybe

519
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 2: even to today, but certainly from the Middle Ages until

520
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 2: World War One rested on this mythology that the older

521
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 2: and the purer your bloodline, the better.

522
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 1: But as early as the nineteenth century, questions were being

523
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 1: raised about the wisdom of royal relatives marrying each other.

524
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 1: In eighteen seventy, Charles Darwin wrote that consanguineous marriages lead

525
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 1: to deafness, and dumbness and blindness. Darwin, for what it's worth,

526
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:25,240
Speaker 1: married and had ten children with his first cousin, Emma Wedgwood.

527
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:30,080
Speaker 1: In the US, concerns over so called cousin marriage were

528
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 1: growing rapidly. At the ninth Annual meeting of the American

529
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 1: Association for the Advancement of Science in eighteen fifty five,

530
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:43,960
Speaker 1: a Boston clergyman named Charles Brooks delivered a fiery lecture

531
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 1: warning against the health consequences of consanguineous reproduction, and by

532
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 1: the end of the nineteenth century, more than a dozen

533
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 1: states had passed laws banning such marriages.

534
00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:00,200
Speaker 2: And nowadays people are envisioning another way the crown, so

535
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 2: that the heir to the throne of England now is

536
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 2: married to a woman with no obvious or known royal blood.

537
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 2: So royals today, I think, do understand that there are

538
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 2: some advantages beyond just getting to marry a person you love,

539
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:14,080
Speaker 2: to marrying outside of the gene pool.

540
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 1: The tradition of European royals marrying each other also meant

541
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 1: that a disorder carried by one royal line was likely

542
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 1: to be carried over to other royal lines, since all

543
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:30,480
Speaker 1: these lines were tangled up. Take the blood clotting disorder hemophilia,

544
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 1: which is often described as the royal disease.

545
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 2: Because it was something that was genetically transmitted, and it's

546
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 2: something that really came to flourish in and among European

547
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:46,960
Speaker 2: royal houses throughout late nineteenth and early twentieth century Europe.

548
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 2: Because Queen Victoria was a carrier of the gene and

549
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 2: so she had one son who was a hemophiliac, and

550
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 2: then she had several grandchildren who were carriers of the disease.

551
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:01,960
Speaker 2: And because she had cast her net wide over Europe,

552
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:06,320
Speaker 2: you really see heemophilia taking off in these generations of

553
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 2: matches that were made between and among the children and

554
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 2: grandchildren of Queen Victoria.

555
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 1: In the case of the royal houses which were beseicked

556
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 1: by it in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries,

557
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 1: hemophilia wasn't just a family matter. It threatened to upend

558
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 1: the world order.

559
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 2: The best example I can think of is Nicholas the Second,

560
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:31,600
Speaker 2: the last Czar of Russia, the Romanov, the Romanov who

561
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 2: his wife, the Czarina, was a granddaughter of Queen Victoria.

562
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 2: Her brother had been hemophiliac and had died young. He

563
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 2: fell out a window and basically died of internal bleeding.

564
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 2: I mean, basically, you can't be a hemophiliac and a

565
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 2: child and have any of the normal bumps and scrapes

566
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 2: that a typical child would have growing up. And so

567
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 2: her and Nicholas's son, Alexei, who was the Tsarevich, the

568
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 2: heir to the throne, was born a haemophiliac. But essentially

569
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 2: they spent the entirety of his life until the whole

570
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 2: family was murdered by the Bolsheviks, hiding him from the

571
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 2: public and hiding the fact that he was a hemophiliac.

572
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:17,840
Speaker 1: The family drama inside the last Russian monarchy was dramatized

573
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 1: on screen in the nineteen seventy one film Nicholas and Alexandra.

574
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 4: There is no doubt of it, no doubt of any kind.

575
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 4: It is unquestionably hemophilia. I see, the female is the carrier.

576
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:32,719
Speaker 4: The mother gives it to the son. Your mother got

577
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 4: it from her mother, Queen Victoria, and passed it on

578
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 4: to you.

579
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 3: I see.

580
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 2: A big part of why Zar Nicholas the second was

581
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 2: so disliked by the Russian public is because they never

582
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 2: saw him. He was invisible to the people of Russia.

583
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,120
Speaker 2: And it was largely because he and his wife were

584
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:53,959
Speaker 2: just consumed by dread that after years and years of

585
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:56,760
Speaker 2: not having a son and only having daughters, and they

586
00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 2: finally had this boy, and then they realized that he

587
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 2: can die at any moment from the slightest thing. So

588
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 2: they were constantly in seclusion with their child. Resputant was

589
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:10,759
Speaker 2: brought in which is you know, kind of resputant is

590
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:13,880
Speaker 2: always invoked as the kind of proof of how crazy

591
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 2: and out of touch these Tsars were, And they wanted

592
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:20,399
Speaker 2: this Charlatan faith healer, mad priest, sex maniac to come

593
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 2: into the heart of their family and run things as

594
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:26,759
Speaker 2: he did. But he was perceived by them as the

595
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:29,359
Speaker 2: only thing that was standing between their son and death

596
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:31,280
Speaker 2: from the complications of hemophilia.

597
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:33,880
Speaker 4: I knew you were going to send for me. I

598
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 4: knew the child was sick.

599
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:37,399
Speaker 3: I know what's the matter with him?

600
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:41,320
Speaker 4: You can't I see blood when I shut my eyes.

601
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 1: The blood he may have seen was that of the

602
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 1: whole family executed by Bolshevik revolutionaries in nineteen eighteen.

603
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:52,839
Speaker 2: So by the time they died, with still a very

604
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:55,840
Speaker 2: young Tsarevich and the rest of their children, their daughters,

605
00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:58,279
Speaker 2: nobody in Russia knew that the boy was a hemophiliac.

606
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:02,719
Speaker 1: Oh, my goodness, But the tsar and Tsarevich's in soelarty

607
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:07,400
Speaker 1: and then the entrance of resputen. Both of these things

608
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:11,400
Speaker 1: which are to their detriment, are connected to their son's hemophilia.

609
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:14,839
Speaker 2: I intimately connected my only close royal friend, His great

610
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:17,880
Speaker 2: great great grandparents were the aunt and uncle of Zar

611
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,279
Speaker 2: Nicholas the second, and his name is Dimitri of Yugoslavia,

612
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,319
Speaker 2: and he's the best storyteller around. And one of the

613
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 2: stories that he tells about Rasputin is that one day

614
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 2: the Tsarevich was playing inside in one of the big

615
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 2: Russian palaces and he was sitting in one of these

616
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:36,880
Speaker 2: kind of massive, ornately decorated rooms where there were gigantic

617
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:40,439
Speaker 2: chandeliers hanging from the ceiling, and Rasputin came running into

618
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 2: the room and pushed this little boy kind of out

619
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 2: of the way, and a gigantic chandelier came crashing down.

620
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:51,399
Speaker 2: And the thought was that Rasputin really does have these

621
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:54,799
Speaker 2: visionary qualities because he saw that this boy was about

622
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 2: to be crushed by a chandelier.

623
00:35:56,239 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 1: Wow. While Resputen's name has gone down in history as

624
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:05,840
Speaker 1: a byword for someone who wields deceitful influence, perhaps it

625
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:10,200
Speaker 1: should be more celebrated. The euro disco group BONEYM seemed

626
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:10,839
Speaker 1: to think so.

627
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 2: The same.

628
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 1: Okay, so you are writing a book now on another dynasty.

629
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 2: I'm writing a book on a number of interrelated dynasties,

630
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 2: but the center of gravity is a Bavarian dynasty called

631
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:36,520
Speaker 2: the Vittelsbach And who are they? They are an old

632
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:41,320
Speaker 2: Bavarian family, so south of Germany, Catholic dynasty. They were

633
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:43,799
Speaker 2: already in the nineteenth century one of the oldest royal

634
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:46,360
Speaker 2: families in Europe. They could trace their ancestry back to

635
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:50,840
Speaker 2: the eleventh century. They had actually intermarried with both Spanish

636
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:56,799
Speaker 2: and Austrian Habsburgs throughout history, sporadically periodically, because they were

637
00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:00,279
Speaker 2: Catholic royals and Catholic royals tended to like to with

638
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 2: each other, and the same for the Protestants. And they

639
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 2: really came to the fore as one of the more

640
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:08,280
Speaker 2: colorful royal families in the second half of the nineteenth century.

641
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 1: And there are some particularly colorful members of this family.

642
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 2: Yes, I want to call my book Glass Piano Girl

643
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:21,279
Speaker 2: and Other Stories of Royal Dysfunction. I'm not sure that's

644
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:23,239
Speaker 2: what it will be allowed to be. But the Vittelsbach

645
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:26,320
Speaker 2: princess who won my heart was the daughter of a

646
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:30,239
Speaker 2: Vittelsbach Bavarian king Ludwig the first. Her name was Alexandra

647
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:34,920
Speaker 2: of Bavaria, and she, when she was around eighteen, became

648
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 2: thoroughly convinced that she had swallowed two foreign objects that

649
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:43,719
Speaker 2: were threatening to destroy her from within. The largest and

650
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:47,880
Speaker 2: most problematic of these objects was a glass grand piano

651
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 2: that she thought was lodged in her stomach. And she

652
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 2: also believed that there was a miniature sofa that was

653
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 2: wedged in her skull, like somewhere in her brain, and

654
00:37:57,200 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 2: she would have these fits of I think what psychoanalyst

655
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:03,440
Speaker 2: would call hysterical blindness, where the doctors couldn't find anything

656
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 2: wrong with her optic nerves. There was no as far

657
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 2: as we know, prominent genetic Vittelsbach hereditary condition that led

658
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:15,239
Speaker 2: to these moments of blindness, and the Vittelsbach themselves had

659
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:19,319
Speaker 2: intermarried for generations like so many royal families. But she

660
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:22,839
Speaker 2: believed that this little miniature sofa was pressing on her

661
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:24,280
Speaker 2: eyes and making her blind.

662
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 1: And can I ask was the sofa in the same

663
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:29,399
Speaker 1: room as the piano? Was it like a drawing room

664
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 1: or a situation.

665
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:33,000
Speaker 2: Or I don't know how she It's funny because she

666
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 2: became a writer in later life, but she never really

667
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:37,880
Speaker 2: wrote about the floor plan, the floor plan of her

668
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:40,279
Speaker 2: body as a set of different chambers. But I mean,

669
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:44,719
Speaker 2: definitely they were distinct scale differences. The piano was a

670
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:48,120
Speaker 2: properly sized grand piano, whereas this little sofa was tiny

671
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 2: enough to somehow fit in her skulp. But her doctors

672
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:54,080
Speaker 2: finally tricked her out of believing that she had this

673
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:56,799
Speaker 2: tiny sofa in her head because they induced vomiting one day,

674
00:38:57,320 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 2: and then in the bucket that they held out to

675
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 2: collect her sick they fished out the surreptitiously slipped in

676
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 2: piece of dollhouse furniture. They took a little, tiny dollhouse

677
00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:09,520
Speaker 2: sofa and said, do you see, your highness, Thanks to

678
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:12,919
Speaker 2: the emetic that we've prescribed, you've been purged of it now.

679
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:15,879
Speaker 2: But because she was convinced that the piano in her

680
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:18,759
Speaker 2: abdomen was full sized, they could never come up with

681
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:22,200
Speaker 2: a similar trick, so she really off and on suffered

682
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 2: from incredible periods of almost paralyzing terror, where she was

683
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:28,480
Speaker 2: afraid that if she moved even the least bit the

684
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:31,280
Speaker 2: wrong way, or if she jostled up against a person

685
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:33,319
Speaker 2: or a wall, or a door or the arm of

686
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 2: a chair, that the whole thing would shatter and shred

687
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:40,920
Speaker 2: her inside. Royal photography was starting to come into vogue

688
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 2: in this period, and we do have at least two

689
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:46,799
Speaker 2: photographs of her. But the photographs we had of her

690
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:49,640
Speaker 2: are of just a woman who looks haunted and hunted

691
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:53,800
Speaker 2: and kind of you know, just like a hollow face,

692
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 2: because she was afraid to eat too. I mean, eating

693
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:59,440
Speaker 2: became a challenge. Everything was a challenge. She saw potential

694
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 2: day everywhere and lived a fairly long life by those standards.

695
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 2: I think she died when she was around sixty. And

696
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:09,480
Speaker 2: this is Princess Alexandra of Bavaria. Then Ludwig the castle Builder,

697
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:18,480
Speaker 2: Ludwig the castle Builder, So Ludwig the Second was Alexandra's nephew.

698
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:23,520
Speaker 2: Ludwig the Second was the most flamboyantly eccentric of all

699
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:25,640
Speaker 2: the Vittel's Box and probably of all royals in the

700
00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:30,440
Speaker 2: nineteenth century. He had this kind of also delusional quality

701
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:33,399
Speaker 2: to his mental makeup, where, for instance, he believed that

702
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 2: he was in constant communion with the ghosts of the

703
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:39,879
Speaker 2: royals that he most admired, who weren't even necessarily close

704
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 2: relations of his or related at all. In particular, he

705
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:47,920
Speaker 2: would have these kind of spiritual conversations with Marie Antoinette

706
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:50,800
Speaker 2: and Louis the fourteenth, and he so firmly believed that

707
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:53,040
Speaker 2: they were around him and talking to him and advising

708
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:56,480
Speaker 2: him that he would have these elaborate dinner parties served

709
00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:59,319
Speaker 2: where it was just himself and the bust of Louis

710
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:01,719
Speaker 2: the fourteen, the bust of Marie Antoinette, and he would

711
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:04,160
Speaker 2: have dish after dish brought in by valets and liveried

712
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:07,200
Speaker 2: valets standing in attendance, and they would clear away the

713
00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:10,840
Speaker 2: plates of like mounds of pheasant, mounds of suites. He

714
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 2: loved sweets that Obviously, these bust statues were not consuming.

715
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:18,440
Speaker 1: But the favorite extravagance of the Ludwig the castle Builder

716
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 1: was building castles.

717
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:25,240
Speaker 2: And he built castles all over Bavaria. One of his castles,

718
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 2: Neus s Fonstein, was the one that became the basis

719
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:29,560
Speaker 2: for the Disney World Castle. So when we think of

720
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:33,479
Speaker 2: a cartoon version of a castle with crazy turrets, and

721
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:35,960
Speaker 2: it almost looks like it's something out of a fairy tale,

722
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:40,440
Speaker 2: this was born of the feverish imagination of Ludwig the Second.

723
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:44,840
Speaker 1: Ludwig believed he ruled by divine right, which meant no

724
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:48,719
Speaker 1: checks or balances from his royal cabinet, which meant he

725
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:53,480
Speaker 1: ignored all warnings about the disaster his frienzied spending was

726
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:54,960
Speaker 1: leading towards.

727
00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:58,400
Speaker 2: He bankrupted Bavaria single handedly by building these castles, and

728
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:01,840
Speaker 2: was actually caught by his men ministers writing letters to

729
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 2: various bankers around Europe offering to sell them Bavaria so

730
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:07,720
Speaker 2: that they would advance him the money to keep building

731
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:11,600
Speaker 2: his castles. So he was really quite a maniac. But

732
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:15,200
Speaker 2: the palaces that he built that were so hard on

733
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:17,919
Speaker 2: the Bavarian treasury, in fact, are now huge tourist draws

734
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:19,960
Speaker 2: in bavarias if people go to Bavaria, they want to

735
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:21,440
Speaker 2: see those castles.

736
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:24,000
Speaker 1: Crazy rich Bavarians.

737
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:26,360
Speaker 2: Crazy rich Bavarians. He didn't know how to spend it

738
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:27,080
Speaker 2: fast enough.

739
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 1: How confident are you that this behavior was at least

740
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 1: in part due to intermarriage.

741
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:36,839
Speaker 2: The vittels Box intermarried a lot, not as much as

742
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:39,040
Speaker 2: the Habsburg's, but it was really a proud tradition and

743
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:43,239
Speaker 2: it dated back many many generations, and anecdotally, by the

744
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:46,759
Speaker 2: nineteenth century there was a kind of what we would

745
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:50,560
Speaker 2: call a meme about something called the Vittelsbach madness. Then

746
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 2: the perception really was that Ludwig had inherited this madness

747
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:58,040
Speaker 2: from the Vittelsbach side of the family, and so it

748
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:01,120
Speaker 2: was seen as this kind of possibly hereditary taint.

749
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:04,440
Speaker 1: Then Ludwig's younger brother.

750
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:09,200
Speaker 2: Oh Auto Ludwig Ludwig was overthrown by his cabinet in

751
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:11,080
Speaker 2: eighteen eighty six, who were afraid that he was going

752
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:13,319
Speaker 2: to sell the Kingdom of Bavaria. They couldn't get him

753
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:16,279
Speaker 2: to stop spending on the castles, and they overthrew him,

754
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 2: knowing that his younger brother was even crazier than he was,

755
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:21,759
Speaker 2: but thinking that at least the younger brother Otto, who

756
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:24,600
Speaker 2: was handed the throne as Otto the first, would be

757
00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:30,960
Speaker 2: pliable in their hands. Because Otto basically went through protracted

758
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:33,279
Speaker 2: periods where he believed that he was a dog, and

759
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:36,359
Speaker 2: so Otto never really even tried to rain. Otto never

760
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 2: had the power of the purse. Otto was really run

761
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:42,800
Speaker 2: by his one of his dog walkers.

762
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:45,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, and his belief that he was a dog. How

763
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:46,760
Speaker 1: did this manifest?

764
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:51,360
Speaker 2: I belief that he was a dog manifested itself in lunging, snarling, biting.

765
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:54,000
Speaker 2: He actually he was kept for most of his adult

766
00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:56,879
Speaker 2: life and most of his reign in one particular kind

767
00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:58,440
Speaker 2: of out of the way palace that not too many

768
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:01,640
Speaker 2: people would risk a visiting. Sometimes his relatives felt bad

769
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 2: and went to visit him, and they were the ones

770
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:06,240
Speaker 2: who would report that he was like leashed to a wall.

771
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 2: And when they would come into the room, you know,

772
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:10,720
Speaker 2: and you'd be presented, because he was still the kings.

773
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:13,280
Speaker 2: He'd be presented with all this pomp and like liveried servants,

774
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:15,160
Speaker 2: and you'd do your deep curtsies if you were a woman,

775
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 2: or your deep ritual bows if you were a man,

776
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:21,240
Speaker 2: but you'd see this snarling person on all fours, tethered

777
00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:23,680
Speaker 2: to the wall and like snapping at you and apparently

778
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:26,400
Speaker 2: foaming at the mouth. There are reports also that he

779
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:28,560
Speaker 2: would only eat out of like a dog bowl or

780
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:29,480
Speaker 2: a bowl on the ground.

781
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:32,760
Speaker 1: Now, Carrie points out that as a young man, Auto

782
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:35,720
Speaker 1: had been forced to fight in the Franco Prussian War,

783
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:40,840
Speaker 1: where he witnessed atrocities and suffered post traumatic stress disorder.

784
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:43,120
Speaker 2: But the dog delusions had already kind of started with

785
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:44,960
Speaker 2: Auto when he was a teenager, before he went off

786
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:46,759
Speaker 2: to war, And I think more just sent him over

787
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:47,120
Speaker 2: the edge, and.

788
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:49,640
Speaker 1: Just exacerbated and sent him over the edge. Can we

789
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:54,400
Speaker 1: draw a line between there and the outbreak of World

790
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:54,919
Speaker 1: War One?

791
00:44:55,719 --> 00:44:58,560
Speaker 2: I think in many ways we can, because By the

792
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:02,680
Speaker 2: time World War One broke out in nineteen fourteen, Europe

793
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:07,920
Speaker 2: was still almost entirely ruled by people from old royal

794
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:13,160
Speaker 2: families who had varying degrees of inbreeding and varying disadvantages

795
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 2: that attached to that. And so the kingdom of Bavaria,

796
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:19,520
Speaker 2: for instance, I mean, I think it's incredible fragility is

797
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:22,320
Speaker 2: highlighted by the fact that these two kings, Ludwig the

798
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:24,480
Speaker 2: second and Auto the First, were kings, and yet they

799
00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:28,640
Speaker 2: couldn't govern, They were incapable of governing, and Bavaria is

800
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:30,839
Speaker 2: one of the kingdoms that collapsed with World War One.

801
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:34,560
Speaker 2: The Romanovs were, you know, autocrat of all. The Russia's

802
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:37,120
Speaker 2: was actually the Bizar's title. And the idea was you

803
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:40,000
Speaker 2: ruled by autocracy because you were chosen by God and

804
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:41,919
Speaker 2: the people are not supposed to have a voice at all.

805
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:44,800
Speaker 2: And when people started wanting to have a voice, Nicholas

806
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:48,319
Speaker 2: the second didn't listen to them, partly through his retrograde

807
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:51,920
Speaker 2: convictions in the superiority of royal birth and his divine mandate,

808
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:54,560
Speaker 2: but partly again also because he was so distracted by

809
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:56,040
Speaker 2: his son's chemophilia.

810
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:59,840
Speaker 1: And we can't forget about those Austrian Habsburgs.

811
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:04,719
Speaker 2: The Emperor of the Austro Hungarian Empire, Franz Joseph, was

812
00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:08,520
Speaker 2: himself the product of Habsburg and a Vittelsbach marriage. His

813
00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:13,440
Speaker 2: wife was twice over of Vittelsbach. Her parents were Vittelsbach cousins.

814
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:18,279
Speaker 1: Their only son, Rudolph, died by suicide after killing his

815
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:21,759
Speaker 1: seventeen year old mistress in a hunting lodge in what

816
00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:25,520
Speaker 1: became known as the Mayrling Incident. It would have a

817
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:30,279
Speaker 1: profound effect on European geopolitics, since Rudolph was seen by

818
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:32,960
Speaker 1: royals as the great progressive hope.

819
00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:35,399
Speaker 2: He was the one who had really had these kind

820
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:39,600
Speaker 2: of ambitions to liberalize and modernize the Austro Hungarian Empire

821
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:42,719
Speaker 2: and give the people more of a voice, adopt some

822
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:47,160
Speaker 2: of the kind of more modern liberal notions of constitutional

823
00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:51,000
Speaker 2: rule and checks and balances. But his mother was terrified

824
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:53,759
Speaker 2: that by dint of being doubly a Vittelsbach on her

825
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:56,200
Speaker 2: mother's on her father's side, that she had transmitted this

826
00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:57,600
Speaker 2: Vittelsbach madness to.

827
00:46:57,600 --> 00:46:58,680
Speaker 1: Him, and she felt guilty.

828
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:01,720
Speaker 2: She felt guilty, and she might not have been wrong.

829
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:06,520
Speaker 1: After the prince's death, the line of succession eventually passed

830
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:11,480
Speaker 1: to Rudolph's cousin, Archduke Franz Ferdinand, whose name you may

831
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:16,040
Speaker 1: remember from high school European history. His assassination led to

832
00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:18,160
Speaker 1: the outbreak of World War One.

833
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:22,359
Speaker 2: To draw the line between World War One and in

834
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 2: reading it would sound maybe specious or flip, but I

835
00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:29,120
Speaker 2: think that the reason why these questions about royal intermarriage

836
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:31,840
Speaker 2: and what their actual effects were on the human beings

837
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:34,160
Speaker 2: who were produced by those systems is that those were

838
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:37,440
Speaker 2: the same human beings who governed most of the world

839
00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:38,920
Speaker 2: through nineteen eighteen.

840
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:45,840
Speaker 1: Bear in mind, in just the Austro Hungarian Empire you

841
00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:50,719
Speaker 1: had one forgive the expression crazy ass family deciding the

842
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:54,279
Speaker 1: fate of more than fifty million people, and.

843
00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:56,759
Speaker 2: The fact that World War One seesed the collapse of

844
00:47:56,760 --> 00:48:01,000
Speaker 2: the Russian Empire, the Prussian Empire, and the Austro Hungarian Empire.

845
00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:04,680
Speaker 2: It's another death of dynasties in effect, and all of

846
00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:09,000
Speaker 2: those families had really been mined by problems that seem

847
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:11,320
Speaker 2: to correlate with in rereading, even though there were plenty

848
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:15,520
Speaker 2: of other geopolitical factors and domestically political factors.

849
00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:20,720
Speaker 1: Honestly, folks, this is all a reminder that democracy really

850
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:30,800
Speaker 1: remains the best game in town. I hope you enjoyed

851
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:33,640
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852
00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:37,800
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853
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:40,520
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854
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:45,120
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855
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:50,000
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856
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:53,880
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857
00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:58,520
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858
00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:03,239
Speaker 1: This episode of Obituaries was produced by Aaron Schrank. Our

859
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:08,640
Speaker 1: team of producers also includes Hazelbrien and me Moroka, with

860
00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:12,440
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861
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:17,800
Speaker 1: Daniel Hart. Our archival producer is Jamie Benson. Mobituary's production

862
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:23,360
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863
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:27,960
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864
00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 1: Steve Razis, Rand Morrison and Alberto Robina. Executive producers for

865
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:38,560
Speaker 1: Mobituaries include Megan Marcus, Jonathan Hirsch, and Moroka. The series

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Speaker 1: is created by Yours Truly