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Speaker 2: Well.
Speaker 1: Joining me now is the mayor of Minneapolis. It's Jacob
Speaker 1: cried mister Maher. I appreciate you taking a few minutes
Speaker 1: with me.
Speaker 3: Thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 1: So, I mean, just we get a few you know.
Speaker 1: One of the things that why I appreciate the longer
Speaker 1: form is that we can put some context, so just
Speaker 1: in a quick summary, because a lot of people don't
Speaker 1: know what is the what powers individual mayors have. Right
Speaker 1: in some cities it's a strong mayor. Some cities, it's
Speaker 1: a weak mayor. Some cities it's up to the mayor
Speaker 1: who the police chief is. Others it is not. So
Speaker 1: give me the quick structure on law enforcement in your
Speaker 1: authority over law enforcement. How much it's you, how much
Speaker 1: it's the city council.
Speaker 3: In twenty twenty two, we began officially shifting our structure
Speaker 3: of government to what is known as a strong mayor system.
Speaker 3: I just call it a regular mayor system. It's sure
Speaker 3: Innneapolis and St. Paul and Duluth in New York City.
Speaker 3: Chicago is a strong mayor's system where the executive runs
Speaker 3: the day to day operations and the council is like
Speaker 3: the congress. They as laws or.
Speaker 1: More of a legislature, also participating in the executive functions.
Speaker 3: That's exactly right. So the police, for instance, report up
Speaker 3: through the commissioner.
Speaker 1: Ultimately, so you appoint the police commissioner or does the
Speaker 1: city council have a saying that.
Speaker 3: I appoint the Commissioner of Safety and the police of
Speaker 3: chief the chief of police. Our council then confirms the appointment.
Speaker 1: Gotcha? So I say this because when it comes to okay,
Speaker 1: so let's take the so called phrasing of sanctuary city, right,
Speaker 1: And I know you. At first it was an executive order.
Speaker 1: Now it's been codified in the city law, and I
Speaker 1: guess what is the line between city and state and
Speaker 1: then what is the line between city and federal in
Speaker 1: this sanctuary law.
Speaker 3: Well, you're asking all the right questions. So we have
Speaker 3: had what is called a separation ordinance in place well
Speaker 3: before my time, right, with that order on some twenty
Speaker 3: plus years, right, it's been quite simple, and it's virtually
Speaker 3: been the same throughout that entire time period. The Council
Speaker 3: lamented it a little bit recently, but it's virtually the
Speaker 3: same thing. And the basis of it is this is
Speaker 3: that our police officers, our officials at the City of Minneapolis,
Speaker 3: do not coordinate with any federal agency around immigration enforcement work. So,
Speaker 3: in other words, we will not work with ICE or
Speaker 3: any other federal agency that has been deputized around immigration
Speaker 3: enforcement work. We do work with them around general safety,
Speaker 3: crime prevention, driving down homicides, that kind of stuff. And
Speaker 3: we also won't ask people as to their documentation status.
Speaker 3: And so when we haven't asked somebody their documentation status,
Speaker 3: we haven't gathered any information, And because we haven't gathered
Speaker 3: any information, when Donald Trump or anybody else asks us
Speaker 3: for all of our information, our answer is quite simple,
Speaker 3: which is we don't have it right.
Speaker 1: What is the line of when you think somebody's immigration
Speaker 1: status matters when you have a interaction with a resident
Speaker 1: of your city.
Speaker 3: For purposes of safety, It doesn't for purposes of calling
Speaker 3: nine to one one, It doesn't. You know, I want
Speaker 3: our police officers spending their limited and valuable time keeping
Speaker 3: people safe, driving down murders, arresting carjackers, doing all the
Speaker 3: basic stuff that any police officer would need to do
Speaker 3: on a daily basis. I don't want them spending a
Speaker 3: single second hunting down some father who just dropped his
Speaker 3: kids off at daycares about to go work a twelve
Speaker 3: hour shift, who happens to be from Ecuador. Like that
Speaker 3: guy makes our city a better place. And so, as
Speaker 3: far as you know, what is the line. Look, I
Speaker 3: don't know if you committed a murder or you shot
Speaker 3: a gun. I don't care where you're from. I don't
Speaker 3: care who your parents were. You know there are consequences
Speaker 3: for that, But I don't get the sense of spending
Speaker 3: limited resource is on Immigration.
Speaker 1: If ICE comes to the city of Minneapolis and says,
Speaker 1: we believe you have a criminal in custody, will you
Speaker 1: release that criminal to us if they have proof that
Speaker 1: this individual is a criminal? What is the policy of
Speaker 1: the police force at that point.
Speaker 3: So there's parts where we are involved and there's parts
Speaker 3: where we are not arresting that criminal. We are involved,
Speaker 3: and we will work with federal agencies to arrest that criminal. Now,
Speaker 3: remember the whole concept of deportation is on the civil side.
Speaker 3: But we will work with federal agencies to get a
Speaker 3: guy that has done bad dates, murders, carjackings, whatever it
Speaker 3: might be. We at the city, however, don't control the jail.
Speaker 3: So the whole concept of.
Speaker 1: The interest that is that is the Canneban County.
Speaker 3: Now he runs the jail. That is the jail. And
Speaker 3: then the state, who has provided quite a bit of
Speaker 3: information recently about how they actually do work with immigration
Speaker 3: and ICE to provide, you know, to you know, not
Speaker 3: let murderers back on the street. That's through the state.
Speaker 1: Like any situation, I assume you tried diplomacy first, meaning
Speaker 1: you know, you knew a new administration was coming in
Speaker 1: and all this stuff. What were those conversations like before
Speaker 1: this escalated to what it has become today, walk me
Speaker 1: through your interactions you had with DHS or with ICE,
Speaker 1: or with any part of the federal government before it
Speaker 1: got to where what you're having to deal with in
Speaker 1: the moment.
Speaker 3: With this administration, it was a pretty quick zero to
Speaker 3: one hundred, not as far as this operation goes, but
Speaker 3: as the general mentality of what they were doing. And look,
Speaker 3: you always expect different ideologies and value use with a
Speaker 3: new administration, especially a new administration that is of a
Speaker 3: different party, but this is something entirely different. Even from
Speaker 3: the first Trump administration. We did not see this kind
Speaker 3: of conduct to this degree with the first Trump administration.
Speaker 3: And I think it was probably twenty or thirty days
Speaker 3: or something like that, maybe even less after Trump was
Speaker 3: sworn into this term. I got a letter on my
Speaker 3: desk from I believe the Office of Management and Budget.
Speaker 3: They quite literally said that all grants that were provided
Speaker 3: to the City of Minneapolis totally somewhere in the range
Speaker 3: of seventy million dollars would be cut off. And the
Speaker 3: basic lever that they were trying to pull was, you
Speaker 3: will lose this money if you don't get rid of
Speaker 3: all diversity work and stop the separation.
Speaker 1: Which I want to put up, which federal governments have
Speaker 1: tried to do with cities and states for decades. Right
Speaker 1: is always the first threat is usually financial.
Speaker 3: Right it is. And there's a ton of legal dictum
Speaker 3: on this particular issue of how much can you know
Speaker 3: the federal government influence or coerce cities based on some
Speaker 3: alternate policy that has nothing to do with that right
Speaker 3: and so, But they've taken a pretty extreme line on
Speaker 3: how they're doing it.
Speaker 1: So you now, this wasn't a case of I mean,
Speaker 1: have you had a meeting with Christino and said, hey,
Speaker 1: what are you trying to truly accomplish here that's in
Speaker 1: the interest of public safety. We'd like to help. Have you.
Speaker 1: Have you been able to have that conversation with the
Speaker 1: Secretary of d J.
Speaker 3: I have not had that conversation because the way they're
Speaker 3: framing this up, sadly, is not about safety. I don't
Speaker 3: even think it's about immigration. I think this is political retribution.
Speaker 1: I think you feel like it's all about George Floyd.
Speaker 3: I don't know George Floyd. I think it's about Tim Walls.
Speaker 3: It's it's you know, the Vice presidential candidate ran against
Speaker 3: Donald Trump, and I think there's a I think perhaps
Speaker 3: Donald Trump is unhappy that for three elections in a row,
Speaker 3: Minnesota did not support his candidacy. I believe that he's
Speaker 3: trying to make a point here.
Speaker 1: And well, when you look at the data, it's not
Speaker 1: like it's not as if Minneapolis stands out compared to Chicago, Denver,
Speaker 1: New York. We could go through the cities here. So
Speaker 1: it does feel as if you're you, I think you
Speaker 1: have said this that you feel as if you're a
Speaker 1: petri dish political petritish right now.
Speaker 3: You know, it feels a little bit as if there
Speaker 3: were multiple things that were occurring in rapid succession that
Speaker 3: don't necessarily have anything to do with one another, you
Speaker 3: know what I mean. It almost feels like you remember
Speaker 3: like post nine to eleven. I remember, you know, you
Speaker 3: reporting on that, you know, at nine to eleven, and
Speaker 3: then you had going after the Taliban. Then it was
Speaker 3: looking at Afghanistan. Suddenly we're in Iraq again, and so
Speaker 3: it was these things that, like if you weren't paying
Speaker 3: a lot of attention, were seemingly linked, but they weren't
Speaker 3: at all, And so we had an issue in our
Speaker 3: state around fraud, and look, it's real, it is a
Speaker 3: real issue. And then there were these racist attacks on
Speaker 3: entire communities, most notably are Somali community, based on that fraud.
Speaker 3: And then from there it was let's I believe and
Speaker 3: this is not based on personal information. I speculate that
Speaker 3: somebody from relatively high up in the Trump administration said,
Speaker 3: go to Minneapolis, go to Port a bunch of Somalis,
Speaker 3: and whoever gave that directive didn't get the necessary pushback,
Speaker 3: and then suddenly you got a bunch of ICE agents.
Speaker 3: There are in many apple Is trying to deport Somalis,
Speaker 3: only to find out they're from here. They're American citizens,
Speaker 3: they got here on a plane, they're here legally.
Speaker 1: When we're the first Somalian settled settlements, it was in
Speaker 1: the mid to late nineties.
Speaker 3: Correct, Yeah, I would say, men, we were.
Speaker 1: Accepting refugees from a war torn country. This was a country.
Speaker 1: So this is what America has done for decades. That's right,
Speaker 1: that's refugees from a war torn country. Yeah, they've been
Speaker 1: here longer than I've been here. They're very Minneapolis and
Speaker 1: at this point, you know, multiple generations they have been.
Speaker 3: And so it's it's it's not like there's a location
Speaker 3: where you can go to get a bunch of undocumented Somalis.
Speaker 3: Those locations don't exist because again, for the most part,
Speaker 3: they're citizens.
Speaker 1: So basically you have this fraud issue that really has
Speaker 1: nothing to do with undocumented.
Speaker 3: Immigrants, right, right, it's it's a completely separate issue.
Speaker 1: And you know, I mean the irony is whatever fraud
Speaker 1: was committed was likely committed by American citizens.
Speaker 3: Correct A likely? Yeah? Yeah, I mean I don't breakdown,
Speaker 3: but yes, you know, and when somebody commits fraud, you investigate,
Speaker 3: you prosecute, you charge, you get a conviction, and yeah,
Speaker 3: you put the person in jail as an individual. You
Speaker 3: don't hold an entire community accountable. You hold the person
Speaker 3: accountable as an individual. It's just a very basic American value,
Speaker 3: in law enforcement value, and it's shocking and concerning that
Speaker 3: we're getting so far straight from that.
Speaker 1: Well I'm old enough to remember when part of the
Speaker 1: anti woke mindset was to not was to not try
Speaker 1: to attack an entire group of people for one person, right,
Speaker 1: I thought that was one of the complaints. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean that was coming from the right. But day here
Speaker 1: we are. Let me ask you about dealing with the
Speaker 1: safety of your community. Nine to one one response times
Speaker 1: have gotten worse in the last few months. Do you
Speaker 1: believe that's directly the result of the chaos that you
Speaker 1: believe is creating in your city.
Speaker 3: I'm certain that's part of it. With anything law enforcement related,
Speaker 3: there's always more than one causal factor. But look, we
Speaker 3: got six hundred cops in the city. We have fewer
Speaker 3: officers per capita than virtually any major city in the country.
Speaker 1: Are you short of cops? I mean and an ideal world,
Speaker 1: do you wish you had more? Yes? Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: I've yet to meet a mayor that is not frustrated
Speaker 1: by this. I'm pretty friendly with maryel Bowser, mayor of DC,
Speaker 1: and she's literally, I swear almost wearing a sign, you know,
Speaker 1: call please apply.
Speaker 3: You know, I wear the same sign, and I would argue,
Speaker 3: I would argue we need them even more. Just on
Speaker 3: a per capita basis, we are very low. We hemorrhaged
Speaker 3: officers following twenty and we are at the point where
Speaker 3: we're netting positive. More and more officers are coming on,
Speaker 3: but we don't have enough. Now, juxtapose that six hundred
Speaker 3: number versus the three or four thousand or whatever it is.
Speaker 3: ICE agents and border control is a massive imbalance here,
Speaker 3: and our police officers have got to do the day
Speaker 3: to day work of being a cop. And you know,
Speaker 3: on top of that, we've got all of these calls
Speaker 3: coming in, all of these you know, ICE instigated events
Speaker 3: that are taking place that requires some form of our
Speaker 3: police officers to do even more work on top.
Speaker 1: So what happened? So if somebody calls in and says, hey,
Speaker 1: I'm being harassed, I'm a I'm a Minneapolis resident, I'm
Speaker 1: an American citizen, and I feel as if I'm being
Speaker 1: harassed by these ICE agents. What are your what's your
Speaker 1: police force supposed to do? Well?
Speaker 3: It all depends on the nature of the call. Of course,
Speaker 3: we respond to calls regarding kidnappings, and so if somebody
Speaker 3: says my son is getting kidnapped, we go. If if
Speaker 3: there is a protest taking place in an ambulance needs
Speaker 3: to get in to help somebody, we escort the ambulance in.
Speaker 3: If property damages take place, we deal with the property damage.
Speaker 3: And yes, we intervene if there is some form of
Speaker 3: misconduct or unlawful behavior that is part of our officer's jobs.
Speaker 3: And obviously this gets very difficult when you're also trying
Speaker 3: to determine whether the conduct that is taking place is
Speaker 3: within the roles and responsibilities provided delegated to ICE other agencies,
Speaker 3: or if it's outside that scope of a criminal nature.
Speaker 3: This is a very tenuous and difficult place for officers
Speaker 3: to be.
Speaker 1: And let me guess most of your police officers don't
Speaker 1: travel with legal counsel.
Speaker 3: Now, do they believe it or not? They don't.
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, I just so what is I mean?
Speaker 1: I get that each circumstance is unique, but you know what,
Speaker 1: what advice are your police officers getting and dealing with
Speaker 1: these situations.
Speaker 3: Their their goal is to keep the peace, their goal
Speaker 3: to keep pizza.
Speaker 1: De escalate whatever it is. They're just trying to de escalate.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, they try to de escalate the situation. They try
Speaker 3: to keep the peace. They do not and will not
Speaker 3: cooperate with ICE or any federal agency on immigration enforcement work.
Speaker 3: That's not our job, that's not what we do. And yeah,
Speaker 3: they're trying to keep people from getting hurt or injured.
Speaker 3: And the way that ICE is conducting this, I'm telling
Speaker 3: you it's I've never seen anything like this.
Speaker 1: Do you think this is designed to provoke a response?
Speaker 3: Yeah, perhaps, I don't. I mean, look, I don't. I'm
Speaker 3: not in the mind of either of these federal agents
Speaker 3: nor this administration. I think a lot of what is
Speaker 3: happening is designed to create some form of response. I mean,
Speaker 3: we don't have that many undocumented immigrants here. What they're
Speaker 3: doing is not based on safety. We have partnered with
Speaker 3: them based on safety. This seems to me like, you know,
Speaker 3: they are trying to whip people up into a frenzy.
Speaker 3: And I mean, thankfully and for the vast majority of
Speaker 3: people in our city and the tens of thousands of protesters,
Speaker 3: they're not taking the bait. They're not countering Donald Trump's
Speaker 3: chaos with our own brand of chaos here.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 3: That's that seems like what they're looking to do. And
Speaker 3: they've got fifteen hundred militarized troops that are presently on standby.
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Speaker 1: com slash chuck. What legal avenues do you think you
Speaker 1: have to sort of at least limit ICE's uh ability
Speaker 1: to roam the city. I mean this sort of five
Speaker 1: to one ratio right being outnumbered by Ice and Border
Speaker 1: patrol versus your local police. That seems excessive. Is there
Speaker 1: a court Is there a legal avenue a court order
Speaker 1: you could get that says you know, this is this
Speaker 1: is outside the bounds of what's necessary, This is an
Speaker 1: excessive et cetera. Is there is there any lea avenue here?
Speaker 3: There is a legal avenue. I am hopeful that we
Speaker 3: will succeed in the litigation that is presently underway. We
Speaker 3: have a judge. I think we're working towards a hearing.
Speaker 3: Dat I was hoping that it was going to be
Speaker 3: this Friday, and I'm optimistic.
Speaker 1: And what do you want that judge to do? What's
Speaker 1: the specific ask?
Speaker 3: This specific? I mean, there are several asks within the
Speaker 3: complaint itself, but the basic one is to stop the operation,
Speaker 3: appear and simple, yes, to stop the operation that is
Speaker 3: presently taking place, which is the huge influx of federal agents.
Speaker 3: I mean, look, you know ICE has existed now for decades.
Speaker 3: Immigration enforcement exists. We're not talking about like just ICE
Speaker 3: doing ICE stuff. We're talking about constitutional violations which have
Speaker 3: gone way beyond anything I could imagine it. This is
Speaker 3: targeting of Somalia and Latino people.
Speaker 1: This is.
Speaker 3: I mean, this is actually happening. Do you look Somali?
Speaker 3: Do you look Latino dragging people off the street, give
Speaker 3: me your passport or else we're detaining you. That is
Speaker 3: actually happening, you know, mister May, this is the hardest
Speaker 3: thing to convey. I think these days, especially in the
Speaker 3: world of deep fakes, nothing you believe, nothing online feels
Speaker 3: like it's on the up and up. Obviously we live,
Speaker 3: we've been sort of poisoned by these algorithms and all
Speaker 3: of that.
Speaker 1: I find this to be the hardest thing to convey
Speaker 1: to people who are not seeing it firsthand, and I
Speaker 1: imagine you feel this frustration as well. There was a
Speaker 1: Brooklyn Park police chief when viral yesterday with some comments
Speaker 1: he made about what has happened to off duty officers
Speaker 1: who just don't happen to look like you and me?
Speaker 1: What kind of experiences have you heard on that front?
Speaker 1: And if you talk to any of these off duty cops,
Speaker 1: have they shared their experiences with ice of you?
Speaker 3: Yeah, we've heard countless instances very similar, almost identical to
Speaker 3: what you heard from that. I believe it was Brooklyn Park, Yeah,
Speaker 3: police chief.
Speaker 1: For those of you that are in Brooklyn Park, I
Speaker 1: believe that's where Jesse Ventura was mayor if I'm not mistaken.
Speaker 3: Back in the day, I often get to who if
Speaker 3: it's from Brooklyn Park or Brooklyn Center, which are right
Speaker 3: next to E.
Speaker 1: But I do think you were one of them. Was
Speaker 1: where Jesse Ventur got to start, right? Yeah? For those
Speaker 1: outside of Minnesota keeping score at home, anyway, go ahead, Sorry,
Speaker 1: I am all. I am, after all a political Juggie
Speaker 1: pot page.
Speaker 3: I am impressed. Yes, No, Minnesota has gone a long
Speaker 3: a long history of of interesting and fascinating and politicians.
Speaker 1: One of my favorite states, you know, because of that.
Speaker 1: I love the characters and the personalities and what I
Speaker 1: use what Hubert Humphrey once called the politics of joy
Speaker 1: that was Minnesota.
Speaker 2: In Minneapolis actually not a lot of joy these days.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. Yeah, this is the kind of dynamic
Speaker 2: that we're hearing about constantly. And apart from, of course,
Speaker 2: the unlawfully detaining people of the United States citizens, apart
Speaker 2: from the gimme your passport and your identification based on
Speaker 2: nothing more than being a part being a person of color.
Speaker 2: I mean, we've seen we've seen our own city employees
Speaker 2: in city uniforms, by the way, in city vests. You know,
Speaker 2: There'll be four public works employees out there filling potholes,
Speaker 2: and the three that are brown or black get id
Speaker 2: and the one guy that's white. Doesn't mean you can't
Speaker 2: do that. Uh, they're filling potholes. This ain't America. The
Speaker 2: other thing that we're seeing is just just really dumb,
Speaker 2: just dumb anti safety conduct taking place.
Speaker 1: You get they were better trained, this might be going better.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, well, better trained, a better direction, better moral authority,
Speaker 3: some some form of moral compass, you know, the over
Speaker 3: on Third Avenue, which is the street that we are
Speaker 3: right off right now. It's a pretty significant street. They detained,
Speaker 3: They ice detained. Somebody yanked them out of the car,
Speaker 3: kept the car in drive. There's nobody in the car.
Speaker 3: Car is just rolling down the street with nobody in it.
Speaker 3: I mean, that could have hit my parents, you know,
Speaker 3: that could have injured somebody. We've got other instances where
Speaker 3: they detained the person and then suddenly you got a
Speaker 3: stray dog and the dog is just roaming around the city.
Speaker 3: It's cold out right now. We got a call in,
Speaker 3: you know, the other day from a five year old
Speaker 3: kid who was speaking Spanish saying, I don't know where
Speaker 3: my parents are. They haven't come home. I mean, this
Speaker 3: is the kind of heartbreaking stuff that we're hearing about
Speaker 3: right now. And again, it's not about catching criminals. I'm
Speaker 3: just sick of this narrative. I'll take the most the
Speaker 3: simplest position that I have maybe ever taken as mayor,
Speaker 3: which is in Minneapolis. Were anti murder in Minneapolis, were
Speaker 3: anti rape. If you want to catch a murder or rapist,
Speaker 3: we're on board, let's do it. That's not what this
Speaker 3: is about, though.
Speaker 1: How concerned. Are you that residents are going to take
Speaker 1: matters into their own hands.
Speaker 3: I mean, of course that is a concern, But for
Speaker 3: the most part, I mean I'm inspired. I have been
Speaker 3: watching people go source their local food bank and get
Speaker 3: people groceries and escorting people on their walk or their
Speaker 3: drive to work. I mean, you have tens of thousands
Speaker 3: of people showing the world exactly who Minneapolis is and
Speaker 3: what we say stand for and our core convictions and values,
Speaker 3: and by the way, people from different ideological perspectives as well,
Speaker 3: all saying, you know what, I love our neighbor, we
Speaker 3: stand by them, we support our local business or local restaurants.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's something that is truly magnificent. I've never
Speaker 3: been more proud to be from Minneapolis.
Speaker 1: I want to go back to the decision not to
Speaker 1: let Ice use city property. I understand the symbolic nature
Speaker 1: of that. It hasn't deterred Ice from arguably causing even
Speaker 1: more chaos by getting using private property, being disruptive using
Speaker 1: federal property. Is that policy workable?
Speaker 3: I think it's a fair question to ask. I mean,
Speaker 3: we want to make it clear that we will not
Speaker 3: cooperate with them and allow them to do this really
Speaker 3: unconstitutional conduct with our resources and that includes our parking lots. Look,
Speaker 3: is it like some big monumental measure. No, No, I'm
Speaker 3: certainly not arguing that. But it was a tool that
Speaker 3: we had and it's a tool that we're going to use.
Speaker 1: Do you need more resources from the state?
Speaker 3: I mean, always we're always asking for re.
Speaker 1: Sure on this particular issue. I mean, i mean, look,
Speaker 1: this seems like a far fetch question. But and I
Speaker 1: and I'll be honest, I've I've not wanted to go
Speaker 1: down this road because of the of the implications of it.
Speaker 1: But if you thought about asking the governor to call
Speaker 1: up the National Guard to help deal with ice in
Speaker 1: your community.
Speaker 3: We have talked with the governor about calling up the
Speaker 3: National Guard and what that would look like and where
Speaker 3: they would where and how they would be utilized. Importantly,
Speaker 3: the governor has the authority over the National Guard, not
Speaker 3: the president.
Speaker 1: The governor.
Speaker 3: Governor has the authority of when, where, how and if
Speaker 3: to implement the National Guards.
Speaker 1: He has authority over the National Guard within the state
Speaker 1: of Minnesota. Correct, Yes, right, I mean there is a
Speaker 1: like he couldn't tell this that a sort of national
Speaker 1: guard go into Wisconsin.
Speaker 3: Correct, that should have been that distinction.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, no, no, no, well I just I was just
Speaker 1: doing the sort of for the list everybody.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and he has called them up to have them
Speaker 3: on standby on the number of occasions already. And that's
Speaker 3: a very important move one because we've got the additional
Speaker 3: resources if in fact we need them. We haven't. But
Speaker 3: what it also does is show Governor Wallas has got it.
Speaker 3: You know, he's he's on And I think that's a
Speaker 3: very important point.
Speaker 1: What do you have an understanding what what the subpoena
Speaker 1: was about that you received? I know it wasn't you personally,
Speaker 1: it was I guess the was it the City of
Speaker 1: Minneapolis or the office of the mayor.
Speaker 3: That got the office of the mayor?
Speaker 1: And what were the record? What was subpoena?
Speaker 3: I mean, all sorts of stuff. I think generally these
Speaker 3: subpoena processes, especially through grand juria, or supposed to be secret,
Speaker 3: but they're clearly trying to make a big public fiasco
Speaker 3: out of it. I don't have the thing in front
Speaker 3: of me. I mean what I'll say is it should
Speaker 3: be deeply concerning to everyone that the Department of Justice
Speaker 3: is being weaponized to go after political leaders that disagree
Speaker 3: with the president. I mean, the thing in essence that
Speaker 3: I would be getting targeted for is doing one of
Speaker 3: my most core and critical jobs that I have as mayor,
Speaker 3: and that's to speak on behalf of my constituents. It's frivolous.
Speaker 3: I almost don't like saying that because it's so obvious.
Speaker 3: And then this kind of this is problematic for everybody.
Speaker 3: We should all be very well.
Speaker 1: Look, I've often said a bit in jest that if
Speaker 1: the FBI came knocking on my door and showed up
Speaker 1: up with some sort of charge, I wouldn't believe him.
Speaker 1: I'd tell them, I don't think you're the FBI. I
Speaker 1: don't believe you. I mean, I say they are, you know,
Speaker 1: being a little like I said, it's a tad bit
Speaker 1: tongue in cheap, but you know, the level of credibility
Speaker 1: that the federal law enforcement agencies have with a large
Speaker 1: share of the public is quite low right now. I mean,
Speaker 1: do you trust the current Department of Justice?
Speaker 3: No? No, I mean, and that's a crazy it's not
Speaker 3: a crazy thing to say right now, but it should be.
Speaker 3: It should be my mentality, my mentality throughout My life
Speaker 3: has been of a whole lot of faith and trust
Speaker 3: in not just the federal government, but specifically the Department
Speaker 3: of Justice, of these kind of legal supposedly quasi independent
Speaker 3: entities that are able to enforce and carry out the law.
Speaker 3: I mean. And part of that faith stems from the
Speaker 3: fact that you've got these long term bureaucrats. Bureaucrats often
Speaker 3: have a negative connotation to them, but they are these
Speaker 3: people that span beyond administration. They were there for Bush
Speaker 3: and Clinton, they were there for Obama.
Speaker 1: The careers, know, I wish we wouldn't call them bureaucrats,
Speaker 1: say their careers, which frankly, you know, was something that
Speaker 1: was actually a civil service reform that goes back if
Speaker 1: you I think people got a mini education on it,
Speaker 1: if they binged to death by lightning on Netflix recently.
Speaker 1: It was sort of the hallmark of the Garfield, Chester
Speaker 1: Arthur presidencies. Was this to create this nonpartisan government worker protection.
Speaker 3: And there's so much value to that one because you've
Speaker 3: got this institutional knowledge and memory that spans between administrations
Speaker 3: into the conviction and the loyalty is not to some guy,
Speaker 3: it's to America. And you talk to so many of
Speaker 3: these people and they're like, they're very much sure they vote,
Speaker 3: but they are very much postpartisan, I mean, and they
Speaker 3: believe in command and control and the order that they bring.
Speaker 3: And they also very much believe in the Constitution, and
Speaker 3: that so many of these career would you call them careerists,
Speaker 3: these professionals, that so many of them have said, that's it,
Speaker 3: We've had enough work out, we can't do this anymore. Both,
Speaker 3: I give them a lot of credit for, you know,
Speaker 3: leaving their job because they're not going to do this
Speaker 3: horrible thing. And at the same time, it's really problematic
Speaker 3: because what does that leave you with. It leaves you
Speaker 3: with I don't know, a loyalists who are just going
Speaker 3: to do whatever the president tells you to. Let me.
Speaker 1: I know you're busy. I want to get you out
Speaker 1: of here in this which is given the experience now
Speaker 1: you're feeling of this weaponized federal government, right. I look,
Speaker 1: it looks like you've been to targeted. This looks like
Speaker 1: it's an attempt to spark A response was a this
Speaker 1: was a specific let's go here, there's a blue city
Speaker 1: activist we can that won't be popular with centrist you know,
Speaker 1: you can see the sort of political design in the
Speaker 1: heads of these folks. Do you think people didn't stand
Speaker 1: up to Trump enough? Has there been too much appeasement?
Speaker 1: Do you think do you have any advice or told
Speaker 1: you sos to eddy Democratic leaders when it comes to
Speaker 1: Trump that you'd like to express, or do you feel
Speaker 1: as if that, Hey, guess what, you know? Failure of
Speaker 1: imagination is basically the only sin people have committed when
Speaker 1: it comes to Donald Trump.
Speaker 3: Failure of imagination, perhaps failure of believing that he's going
Speaker 3: to do the things that he says he's going to do.
Speaker 1: Well, We're used to politicians not doing that, right, so
Speaker 1: we just assume he's full of it. And the thing is,
Speaker 1: he is full of it until he's not full of it.
Speaker 3: I mean, some of these horrific things he has told
Speaker 3: people that he was going to do them, and you know,
Speaker 3: I could probably count myself in with those that should
Speaker 3: have believed that he was going to do some of
Speaker 3: this crazy stuff, because at least initially back in twenty sixteen,
Speaker 3: I kind of shoved it off, like, oh, come on,
Speaker 3: that's ridiculous. But now we're in a second term here,
Speaker 3: and he's carrying some of it out and it's terrifying
Speaker 3: and it's reached a whole new level than anything that
Speaker 3: we saw in that first term.
Speaker 1: Well, do you think there's any end in sight to
Speaker 1: this or is it going to your last Is the
Speaker 1: court the sort of the last place you can go.
Speaker 3: Well, we are accessing every single channel that we have. Yes,
Speaker 3: we are litigating preemptively. We are litigating in response to
Speaker 3: what's taking place. I am very optimistic that we're going
Speaker 3: to win. And at the same time, we are also
Speaker 3: accessing other channels in the federal government in the White
Speaker 3: House to try to get this to change, you know,
Speaker 3: pushing out to business leaders and CEOs to have them
Speaker 3: utilize their connections.
Speaker 1: Or it has been bad politics for the Republicans. This
Speaker 1: has not been good for them. Just if you just
Speaker 1: look at it, it's been bad politics, so one would
Speaker 1: assume that they would change. By the way, are you
Speaker 1: going to be able to do a real investigation on
Speaker 1: whether renee Good was murdered?
Speaker 3: We need to do a real investigation. The investigations should
Speaker 3: run through the Bureau of Criminal Apprehension, which is the
Speaker 3: state based agency that has done these investigations on use
Speaker 3: of force repeatedly. They've run investigations that have come to
Speaker 3: both charging decisions and a lack of charge. This is
Speaker 3: not some radical organization. This is largely you know, lawyers
Speaker 3: and police officers that are part of this group, and
Speaker 3: that's where it needs to go.
Speaker 1: Has there been an investigation opened and they just can't
Speaker 1: get cooperation or you're waiting to see if you get
Speaker 1: cooperation before you can open an investigation.
Speaker 3: There, well, the federal government has My understanding is that
Speaker 3: they have blocked out the b c A from getting
Speaker 3: critical and important evidence that we have allowed them to
Speaker 3: run this investigation side by side with the FBI, sure
Speaker 3: and the side.
Speaker 1: It would have been a normal way to do business
Speaker 1: back in the normal way.
Speaker 3: Very normal way. I mean it has it has done
Speaker 3: that before. That's the way we have operated for uh.
Speaker 3: But but and you know, barring that, yeah, I would
Speaker 3: like to be see it to do the investigation themselves,
Speaker 3: and of course there will be support.
Speaker 1: How much of your job is dominated by this current crisis, I.
Speaker 3: Mean much of it obviously, But we're you know, we're
Speaker 3: going to keep providing important constituent services. We do the
Speaker 3: work of the city. You know, city governments were the
Speaker 3: ones that don't shut down so we keep rolling. We're
Speaker 3: not quitting. We're not going to get intimidated by what's
Speaker 3: going on.
Speaker 1: Mister Mayor. I appreciate the time. Like I said, I
Speaker 1: know you're busy, so when or one hour podcast is
Speaker 1: a lot to ask. So I appreciate you giving me
Speaker 1: thirty unor to be here with you watching a lot
Speaker 1: as a kid, so I've watched me for a long time. Well,
Speaker 1: I appreciate you making me feel little. That's awesome. Yeah, thanks,
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