WEBVTT - How a Hyperactive Immune System Can Make COVID-19 More Severe

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<v Speaker 1>It's Tuesday, April fourteen. I'm Oscar Ramirez from the Daily

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<v Speaker 1>Dive podcast in Los Angeles, and this is your daily

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<v Speaker 1>coronavirus update. Researchers are looking into how an immune system

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<v Speaker 1>gone haywire, maybe doing the most damage and patients experience

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<v Speaker 1>some of the most severe symptoms and even death because

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<v Speaker 1>of COVID nineteen. This might be happening in two stages. First,

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<v Speaker 1>the immune system fails to respond quickly enough to the virus,

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<v Speaker 1>then responds to aggressively and causes more damage. Joe Walker,

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<v Speaker 1>reporter for The Wall Street Journal, joins us for why

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<v Speaker 1>hyperactive immune response maybe making things worse. Thanks for joining us, Joe,

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<v Speaker 1>my pleasure. We're continuing to learn more about the coronavirus

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<v Speaker 1>and COVID nineteen. One of the things that everybody is

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<v Speaker 1>concerned with is obviously why some people get these very

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<v Speaker 1>severe symptoms from the virus and why some people die

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<v Speaker 1>from it. For a long time, we've been saying people

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<v Speaker 1>with underlying health conditions are more at risk. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>it just seems to kind of create this perfect storm.

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<v Speaker 1>But also included all of this is the immune response

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<v Speaker 1>for every person that could be different due to genetics.

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<v Speaker 1>And other reasons, but an immune system that goes haywire

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<v Speaker 1>could be eyed and why some people are dying from

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<v Speaker 1>the coronavirus. Joe tell us a little bit about this.

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<v Speaker 1>The idea here, right, is that COVID nineteen is flu

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<v Speaker 1>like symptoms that are really really bad. We all know

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<v Speaker 1>that my headache, coughing, fatigue, all this kind of stuff, right,

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<v Speaker 1>pneumonia really terrible symptoms. But most people get over those symptoms,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, their immune system does the job for them.

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<v Speaker 1>And then you have this like maybe fifteen people who

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<v Speaker 1>end up on ventilators and some of them die, and

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<v Speaker 1>people increasingly think that what's happening there is that it's

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<v Speaker 1>not so much the virus anymore. The person's own body

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<v Speaker 1>and their own immune response is just going haywire. It's overreacting, essentially,

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<v Speaker 1>it's doing too much too fast, and what it's doing

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<v Speaker 1>is basically creating this mechanism whereby fluids seep into the

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<v Speaker 1>lungs and fill them up like wounds, and you end

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<v Speaker 1>up in a situation called acute respiratory distress syndrome, which

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<v Speaker 1>basically means you can't breathe, your organs can't get oxygen,

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<v Speaker 1>and barring intervention, you die from respiratory failure, and doctors

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<v Speaker 1>think that there's two stages to this. Two steps. So

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<v Speaker 1>the first is the lag your immune system is kind

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<v Speaker 1>of lagging in attacking it, and then once it sees

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<v Speaker 1>that it's there, then it goes and overcompensates. And then

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<v Speaker 1>this is the part where it can become a problem

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<v Speaker 1>where your immune system is going overboard and it's actually

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<v Speaker 1>destroying healthy cells in addition to trying to fight the virus.

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<v Speaker 1>Exactly the way when researcher pointed out to me was

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<v Speaker 1>like if you have a ride in the streets, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>and you send your local police there, but it's just

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<v Speaker 1>way too much, the riots, way out of control, and

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<v Speaker 1>so then you send in the riot police. But like

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<v Speaker 1>at that point everything is just chaos and it's just

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<v Speaker 1>a mess because you didn't send in the right authority

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<v Speaker 1>of the right police force soon enough, and so then

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<v Speaker 1>everything just kind of is mayhem. So the way that

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<v Speaker 1>you described it in this sort of two stage process

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<v Speaker 1>does seem to be what happens to a portion of

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<v Speaker 1>patients that end up getting really sick and some of

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<v Speaker 1>them die, and this whole moment of chaos in the

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<v Speaker 1>body with the immune system. Doctors and scientists they call

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<v Speaker 1>it a cytokine storm. So it's kind of this perfect

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<v Speaker 1>storm of chaos going on in the body, and they're

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<v Speaker 1>eyeing certain drugs. I don't know if they're full on.

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<v Speaker 1>Immunosuppressants are certain things that can target these things to

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<v Speaker 1>maybe help calm that part down in an effort to

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<v Speaker 1>not have the body go hey wire that way. So

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<v Speaker 1>cyted kinds are these proteins that your immune system uses

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<v Speaker 1>to fight off infections to help keep you healthy when

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<v Speaker 1>you're sick. Right, there's a bunch of different ones and

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<v Speaker 1>usually they're good things, right, But when they use this,

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<v Speaker 1>some kind of goes crazy. Like this, it's putting way

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<v Speaker 1>too many of the cided kinds into your body all

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<v Speaker 1>at once, and that's what's sort of causing the problems.

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<v Speaker 1>And so there are a number of drugs that people

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<v Speaker 1>are testing right now. I'd say the most advanced are

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<v Speaker 1>these two medicines that are both the per if The

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<v Speaker 1>one is called that Camera and the other one is

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<v Speaker 1>called Czara. They're both on the market for other conditions,

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<v Speaker 1>but they blocked these one kind of sided kind of

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<v Speaker 1>particular called Aisle six, and so the hope is that

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<v Speaker 1>if you can block this one side of kind that

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<v Speaker 1>looks like it's playing a role in these negative effects

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<v Speaker 1>you're having, that I could kind of quiet this storm

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<v Speaker 1>and help take all this pressure off the body so

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<v Speaker 1>that can actually fight the virus again. You know. And

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<v Speaker 1>we write in the article about some pretty encouraging anecdotal

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<v Speaker 1>results about people being treated with these drugs and having

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<v Speaker 1>really good results. And we have to be very clear

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<v Speaker 1>on this. There's a lot of talk about different drugs

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<v Speaker 1>going on. Hydroxy Chloroquine is one that the President likes

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<v Speaker 1>to talk about. People have hit or miss evidence with it.

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<v Speaker 1>That's something more that people are saying, take it beforehand

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<v Speaker 1>or early on when you get COVID nineteen for people

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<v Speaker 1>that have really really bad symptoms. These are for people

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<v Speaker 1>where the body is actually starting to do harm to itself.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's kind of on a different spectrum. I think

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<v Speaker 1>that's right, because you know, look, all drugs have side effects,

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<v Speaker 1>and you never know exactly how bad each persons side

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<v Speaker 1>effects will be, so it's not the kind of thing

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<v Speaker 1>you really just want to like fool around with and

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<v Speaker 1>take for giggles. And so with these words, we're talking

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<v Speaker 1>about the target the immune system in particular. Um, you

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<v Speaker 1>want to be really careful. I will just say though,

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<v Speaker 1>that one of the tricky things about this disease is

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<v Speaker 1>that the cytokine's storm process seems to happen really quickly.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's not as though you're totally healthy one day

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<v Speaker 1>and then out eventilator the next. But they can be like,

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<v Speaker 1>you're pretty sick, you're pretty sick, and then all of

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<v Speaker 1>a sudden, you're kind of having trouble breathing, and then

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<v Speaker 1>that's really when I think doctors are saying that they

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<v Speaker 1>think these types of drugs might be most beneficial. So

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<v Speaker 1>you really want to try to catch it at the

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<v Speaker 1>right time, even while being careful about not kind of

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<v Speaker 1>giving them out. Willy Newly to everybody. Joe Walker, reporter

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<v Speaker 1>for The Wall Street Journal, thank you very much for

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<v Speaker 1>joining us. Thank you my pleasure. I'm Oscar Ramirez and

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<v Speaker 1>this has been your daily coronavirus update. Don't forget that.

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<v Speaker 1>For today's big stories, you can check me out on

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<v Speaker 1>the Daily Dive podcast every Monday through Friday, So follow

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<v Speaker 1>podcast right