Speaker 1: How could you define Paul Skin's value right now? I
Speaker 1: don't know if there's a value that could be defined.
Speaker 1: He's kind of like the Mona Lisa right now.
Speaker 2: All right, here we go, Let's bring back Noah. Noah
Speaker 2: first off, right off the jump, because I think it
Speaker 2: is the second time you've been on with us. Give
Speaker 2: Noah a follow. I have him on my notifications beat
Speaker 2: writer for the Pittsburgh Post Gazette. It's been all over
Speaker 2: the story here with the disaster season for the Pirates,
Speaker 2: and we went over it last time we had you on.
Speaker 2: Let's focus on Derek Shelton out and what that means
Speaker 2: for the future of this organization. Do we think that
Speaker 2: ben Cherrington could be next, maybe at the end of
Speaker 2: the season, or does he get a longer leash because
Speaker 2: you can't replace the owner.
Speaker 1: Yeah, from what I've been told, if the season were
Speaker 1: to end today, ben Cherrington is still the general manager
Speaker 1: of this ball club. I think his dismissal largely depends
Speaker 1: on how this team plays under Don Kelly moving forward,
Speaker 1: if they play better, in which there's a possibility for
Speaker 1: that to happen, considering that they're going to be getting
Speaker 1: Spencer Horowitz and Nick and Zalez back soon, Bubba Chandler
Speaker 1: will probably be promoted here within the next month, and
Speaker 1: Jared Jones will be back sometime in July.
Speaker 3: They're gonna get.
Speaker 1: A better roster for him to play with or for
Speaker 1: him to coach, and if this team plays a little better,
Speaker 1: I think there's a chance Charrington sticks around. I don't
Speaker 1: know if that's the right call or not. Thankfully I'm
Speaker 1: not the one who has to make that decision, but yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that Charrington has a little bit longer of
Speaker 1: a leash. I think that's reflected in how they went
Speaker 1: about this last offseason. You don't typically see teams reconstruct
Speaker 1: their front office five years into a regime.
Speaker 3: They in the last eighteen months or.
Speaker 1: So, they've replaced all three heads of the scouting department,
Speaker 1: Pro International and Amateur. They found a new head of
Speaker 1: R and D and a new farm director. So those
Speaker 1: are moves that are typically made by a general manager
Speaker 1: who doesn't think he's on the hot seat. I don't
Speaker 1: know if that's changed. I would have to assume that
Speaker 1: there's definitely at least a little pressure connected to his
Speaker 1: name and title right now. But I think that if
Speaker 1: he's going to be let go at the end of
Speaker 1: the season. It's going to be because the team continues
Speaker 1: to play poorly after this Shelton move is made.
Speaker 4: If that is true, if his the result of the
Speaker 4: next one hundred and some games does kind of pertain
Speaker 4: to ben Cherrington's employment for next year and five years
Speaker 4: from now, does that mean there's going to be more
Speaker 4: input from the front office and Don Kelly's not gonna
Speaker 4: get a leash to be able to say this is
Speaker 4: what I want.
Speaker 3: That's another really good question.
Speaker 1: I know that they're probably going to make other staff changes.
Speaker 1: They just released their game planning coordinator this morning, so
Speaker 1: I'm interested to see what the rest of the coaching
Speaker 1: staff looks like now that Kelly's at the Helm. And
Speaker 1: as far as Kelly's future goes here in Pittsburgh, I
Speaker 1: do think he'll have a little bit more control and
Speaker 1: say of things. But at the same time, I mean,
Speaker 1: his future is depending, just like Charrington's, on how well
Speaker 1: the rest of this season goes. I think that Shelton
Speaker 1: had a lot of control here, maybe more than some
Speaker 1: people would like to believe. As far as lineup construction
Speaker 1: is concerned. It's just the options that he was given
Speaker 1: to choose from weren't the best, So it wasn't like
Speaker 1: he was necessarily pulling all the wrong strings. There just
Speaker 1: wasn't a lot of good strings to pull from. Kelly
Speaker 1: faces that same predicament. We'll see what he can do.
Speaker 1: But if he performs well, and I think he'll have
Speaker 1: the opportunity to make his own decisions with hope to
Speaker 1: perform well. But if he performs well, I think there
Speaker 1: might be a future here for him.
Speaker 4: How is Don Kelly going to be able to plan
Speaker 4: for the game without a game planning coach? Radley Haddad
Speaker 4: is just an absolute that just gets an absolute stray
Speaker 4: here by getting fired along with Shelton? What is Do
Speaker 4: you know any background of why he was the one
Speaker 4: that the team's not hitting? Why did the hitting coach
Speaker 4: not go? Why you know the tea Paul Skeins has
Speaker 4: four losses? See a pitching coach like why Radley Hadad
Speaker 4: getting drug out the door with Shelton.
Speaker 1: That's one I haven't had a lot of time to
Speaker 1: dig into just yet. This is a move that I
Speaker 1: just learned about this morning, and frankly, I've been pretty
Speaker 1: busy talking about the move that was made yesterday and
Speaker 1: still trying to figure out everything that went on there.
Speaker 3: There's a lot.
Speaker 1: Going on here in Pittsburgh. If you guys haven't been
Speaker 1: paying attention, from bricks to surfside ads to ushers hitting
Speaker 1: people with belts, it's been a lot. So now the
Speaker 1: focus is on the manager change, and I'm sure they're
Speaker 1: going to be you know, maybe a few other coaching
Speaker 1: staff changes or at least a reshuffling of the deck.
Speaker 1: And it's hard to make sense of any of it
Speaker 1: right now because it's hard to put blame on a
Speaker 1: few specific individuals when it seems like it's an organizational
Speaker 1: failure as a whole.
Speaker 5: Let me ask you this. So we're talking about management
Speaker 5: the brass a little bit, we haven't talked about are
Speaker 5: the players. What have you seen from the players? You
Speaker 5: Have they expressed any concern? Are they excited about the move?
Speaker 5: Have you talked to these guys about, you know, you know,
Speaker 5: what's next? Are you guys ready, you know, to kind
Speaker 5: of change gears here a little bit? Anything from the
Speaker 5: player's perspective on this change yet.
Speaker 1: I haven't talked to him since the change because yesterday
Speaker 1: was an off day. I'll be heading down to the
Speaker 1: clubhouse as soon as this interview's over, actually, but I
Speaker 1: am looking forward to hear their perspective. I know, in
Speaker 1: the days leading up to Shelton's dismissal, it was made
Speaker 1: pretty clear to me that this was expected and it's
Speaker 1: not something they necessarily were rooting for, but it was
Speaker 1: just kind of expected within multiple levels of the organization
Speaker 1: that if you've been around baseball long enough, you could
Speaker 1: feel a move like this coming. And I think the
Speaker 1: general consensus was this isn't going to fix much. They
Speaker 1: understood why it was likely coming, but it's going to
Speaker 1: take a lot of people being much better at their
Speaker 1: jobs if this is going to turn around, and the
Speaker 1: players recognize this. Mitch Keller voiced as much after when
Speaker 1: Day's loss. He said, we've got to hold each other
Speaker 1: accountable and we've got to do a better job of that,
Speaker 1: and it's going to take veteran guys like that on
Speaker 1: this team to push that messaging, and more than anything else,
Speaker 1: it's just going to take better execution. Some of their
Speaker 1: more reliable players just haven't been productive so far this season.
Speaker 1: You look at guys like Brian Reynolds, who is one
Speaker 1: of the higher paid guys on the team, one of
Speaker 1: the better hitters, more of the more consistent guys on
Speaker 1: the offensive end of this team. He just hasn't been
Speaker 1: playing well, and he's one.
Speaker 3: Of a few guys you could say that about.
Speaker 1: I'm sure he'll get going, and the team's going to
Speaker 1: need him to get going if it has any chance
Speaker 1: of playing any sort of meaningful baseball this year.
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Speaker 4: But when you have superstars, you need people around them.
Speaker 4: When you have stars, you need people around them. And nothing.
Speaker 4: I went to a game. I went to the Paul
Speaker 4: Skien start. No no ushers beat me up with a
Speaker 4: belt or anything. It was fine. I didn't buy any
Speaker 4: state sides, nothing like that. But I saw en Monwel
Speaker 4: valve As hitting fourth for this team. Is that making
Speaker 4: a Brian Reynolds who was hurt with a lad at
Speaker 4: the time, or a or a Andrew McCutcheon, or a
Speaker 4: bounce back year from key Brian Hayes accessible if you're
Speaker 4: not bringing in a first baseman who is has a
Speaker 4: has a consistent track record of hitting fourth or fifth
Speaker 4: in the lineup. Nothing at m man Weel is a
Speaker 4: big league baseball player, But when I saw him hitting
Speaker 4: fourth in the lineup, it surprised me that this team
Speaker 4: doesn't have something to supplement around the guys who are
Speaker 4: supposed to be supposed to be the guys for the team.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I totally agree.
Speaker 1: I last off season on October second, Ben Chrrington spoke
Speaker 1: with US reporters here at PNC Park is his end
Speaker 1: of season press conference. He said that he felt on
Speaker 1: that day, he said he felt that the organization, this
Speaker 1: organization's depth was the greatest it's been during his time
Speaker 1: in Pittsburgh. Well, that depth was tested in the beginning
Speaker 1: of this season when Nick gon Zalez was put on
Speaker 1: the IL after the first game of the season, and
Speaker 1: when Spencer Horowitz was put on the IL in spring
Speaker 1: training when he arrived in a risk cast. They lost
Speaker 1: their right side of the infield, and then they lost
Speaker 1: Jared Jones as well. That depth was tested and that
Speaker 1: depth failed. They did not have the guys to back up.
Speaker 1: I came on and was waiting in the lobby while
Speaker 1: you guys were talking about the Dodgers, and obviously that's
Speaker 1: a very tough team to compare the Pirates to or
Speaker 1: vice versa.
Speaker 3: But you want to talk about depth.
Speaker 1: When guys aren't performing on a winning baseball team, you
Speaker 1: have viable options coming up from the minor leagues or
Speaker 1: coming off the bench. The Pirates, their backup plans have
Speaker 1: not worked so far at first base, at second base,
Speaker 1: in the corner outfield spots. It's been just a handful
Speaker 1: of guys who have all the pressure on them to perform,
Speaker 1: and if they get off to a slow start, they're
Speaker 1: in big trouble. If they get hurt, they're in big trouble.
Speaker 1: Or when other guys are slumping and you're one of
Speaker 1: a few players that are an actual threat in the lineup,
Speaker 1: the opposing team doesn't have to throw you anything to
Speaker 1: hit you have no lineup protection. We're seeing all of
Speaker 1: that unfold right now here in Pittsford.
Speaker 2: So no, I'm going to go back to where I started.
Speaker 2: How does this not fall on Ben Charrington. We're in
Speaker 2: the National League Central, we know what we're dealing with
Speaker 2: in the owner at this point, they're not going to
Speaker 2: invest in players in the offseason. He's made that quite
Speaker 2: clear with his actions for a long time now. I
Speaker 2: can beat that one down as much as we want.
Speaker 2: But as far as money, I mean, sometimes the Brewers
Speaker 2: are not too far off with their payroll that they
Speaker 2: could be looked at as an outlier. But why can't
Speaker 2: the Pirates figure out how to get to that point
Speaker 2: at any point, and if they can't, doesn't that mean
Speaker 2: you try, and I don't know, find out who Matt
Speaker 2: Arnold's right hand man or even below that is, and
Speaker 2: just bring them over and be like, hey, can we
Speaker 2: try and replicate that because the budget's not going to
Speaker 2: change and I feel like there's been enough time here
Speaker 2: for Charrington to rack up some picks. And I don't
Speaker 2: see it for the Pirates. I mean, I've been pretty
Speaker 2: clear cut since the show started, right that, I don't
Speaker 2: see it.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: Sometimes it's cute it's a twelve and eight start and
Speaker 2: everyone's like woo, but it's not a good roster, right,
Speaker 2: It's not there. So I feel like they need a
Speaker 2: fresh start as far as how they're working as an organization.
Speaker 2: They're twelve and twenty six this season. Shot.
Speaker 1: You're not the only person who feels that way. It's
Speaker 1: tough to justify a fresh start when you have Paul
Speaker 1: Skime's pre arb right now.
Speaker 3: But I would have to agree.
Speaker 1: I'd think that when you look at what this organization
Speaker 1: is doing well versus what it's not doing well, I
Speaker 1: think that it's more than just identifying affordable big League talent.
Speaker 1: When you look back the last time this franchise was
Speaker 1: successful that thirteen through fifteen window, it wasn't because they
Speaker 1: were out spending teams or even spending more money than
Speaker 1: they normally do. It was because they were a good organization.
Speaker 1: They were thriving and scouting, They were thriving in the
Speaker 1: analytics community. They were innovative with implementing the shift into
Speaker 1: baseball that kind of started here in Pittsburgh. They were
Speaker 1: coming up with new ideas on how you can win
Speaker 1: baseball games. They were what people associate the Rays to be,
Speaker 1: or the Brewers or the Guardians, these small market teams
Speaker 1: who consistently win. You're not going to beat teams in
Speaker 1: the offseason with your spending budget. You're going to beat
Speaker 1: them by being better in the unseen areas of the game,
Speaker 1: the behind the scenes stuff. And the Pirates were that
Speaker 1: type of organization for a brief period of time about
Speaker 1: a decade ago. But then that progress stopped. As other
Speaker 1: teams continue to advance with the times and advanced their
Speaker 1: investment in those areas to the times, the Pirates remained
Speaker 1: stagnant and they fell behind. And I think their activity
Speaker 1: this past offseason indicated that they acknowledged that, and they
Speaker 1: were aggressively, aggressively trying to keep up. But you know,
Speaker 1: even good hires in the head of scouting departments, research
Speaker 1: and development, foreign director, those investments aren't going to show
Speaker 1: any type of payoff for two three years. So they're
Speaker 1: behind right now in the areas that small market teams
Speaker 1: need to be in. You're right by saying, yeah, the Brewers,
Speaker 1: they're not spending more money than the Dodgers or the Yankees,
Speaker 1: but their front offices are just as good, if not better,
Speaker 1: at figuring out innovative ways to create runs, to prevent
Speaker 1: runs from being scored against them, and to ultimately win games.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is probably at this point the most maddening
Speaker 2: franchise in baseball at the moment. You could have made
Speaker 2: the case for Seattle in the last few years, but
Speaker 2: they are humming along right now. So at least as
Speaker 2: far as power rankings for fan frustration, they're number one.
Speaker 2: So let's finish with this. Let's spind it forward. They're
Speaker 2: season's over, right, they're twelve and twenty six.
Speaker 5: They suck.
Speaker 2: Who should we start to look at and scout? Right
Speaker 2: from a national show perspective, we love the trade deadline
Speaker 2: and what leads up to it. So who could be
Speaker 2: on the move for the Pirates, Because the quickest way
Speaker 2: to get better is to trade away players for assets
Speaker 2: when you're not good, not the guys that are signed
Speaker 2: up for long term. I mean, we know Skens isn't
Speaker 2: getting traded, but who could delivered the Pirates some value
Speaker 2: back that they can utilize over the next few years.
Speaker 1: Oh, I think the first answer is Andrew Heeney. Everyone's
Speaker 1: looking for starting pitching. He's a veteran left hander who's
Speaker 1: been a part of some playoff rotations, so I think
Speaker 1: he could pull in some value. I don't think a ton,
Speaker 1: considering that he's on a one year deal. The two
Speaker 1: names that I think could be interesting, and I'm not
Speaker 1: necessarily sure if there I'll actually make it three. Not
Speaker 1: sure if they'll be dealt, but I think could potentially
Speaker 1: bring in some value. Two right handers out of the bullpen,
Speaker 1: David Bednar and Dennis Santana, both have an extra year
Speaker 1: of control after this season. Bennar has been really good
Speaker 1: after getting optioned on April first. He returned on the nineteenth.
Speaker 1: I think he's only allowed one earned run since he's
Speaker 1: come back, so he's been really good. And Dennis Santana,
Speaker 1: if you look at his numbers since being acquired by Pittsburgh,
Speaker 1: has been one of the more productive right handed relievers
Speaker 1: in baseball. He's been really under the radar as an
Speaker 1: effective leverage guy and with multiple years of I think
Speaker 1: both of those guys could be attractive pieces as far
Speaker 1: as position players go. I think maybe Joey Bart could
Speaker 1: be someone that they could shop. I don't expect a
Speaker 1: huge return for him, but what you consider what.
Speaker 3: They gave away.
Speaker 1: I believe the player they traded for him was Jackson Wolf,
Speaker 1: someone who was a minor league arm and you could
Speaker 1: probably get something a little bit more than that in
Speaker 1: return now, And when you look at just an asset appreciation,
Speaker 1: that could be something where they could view that as, hey,
Speaker 1: we could get a decent prospector another big league contributor
Speaker 1: maybe a replacement level player for someone we didn't expect
Speaker 1: to have on the roster very long. It ended up
Speaker 1: turning out to be a decent hitter.
Speaker 3: Bart.
Speaker 1: What does he provide to a team I don't know
Speaker 1: about much. Defensively, I think there's a weakness to his
Speaker 1: game as a catcher behind the plate. But I mean
Speaker 1: he's gotten above league average ops and he's got some
Speaker 1: pop to his back hasn't necessarily showed this year, but
Speaker 1: he's been getting on base and he can barrel the baseball.
Speaker 1: I think he'd be a nice little bench bat for
Speaker 1: a team to add at the deadline.
Speaker 4: Catchers rarely get moved a you know, if you want
Speaker 4: him at the trade deadline. It's just tough to simulate
Speaker 4: into a pitching staff on a playoff team. But here
Speaker 4: it is Noah outside the box. Trade Paul Skins. Trade
Speaker 4: Paul Skins in a herschel Walker type of game changing move.
Speaker 3: Here's why he can't do it.
Speaker 1: I don't know what how could you define Paul Skins's
Speaker 1: value right now? I just don't think he's so his
Speaker 1: talent plus what you're paying him. I don't know if
Speaker 1: there's a value that could be defined. He's kind of
Speaker 1: like the Mona Lisa right now. You have to allow
Speaker 1: him to get closer to arbitration, or at least I
Speaker 1: think hit arbitration until he's making something similar to a
Speaker 1: player his caliber, because with four years of control to
Speaker 1: what he can provide as far as value on the Mound.
Speaker 1: I don't think any team, especially a team in contention,
Speaker 1: would be willing to offer, would have the assets to offer,
Speaker 1: or would be willing to because I think if you're
Speaker 1: going to trade someone like that, you can't just trade
Speaker 1: them for straight up prospects. You need to get proven
Speaker 1: big league talent in addition to prospects.
Speaker 4: Largest trade of all time, I'm taught, Like, right now
Speaker 4: he is a chandelier in a haunted house. Yeah it
Speaker 4: doesn't you know the value of the chandelier, and other
Speaker 4: teams like if you want to make an impact on
Speaker 4: this organization, that will last for the next six years,
Speaker 4: which is why you fire your scouting department. Different heads,
Speaker 4: you change different things. You're looking to shake it up.
Speaker 4: Nothing in Spencer Horwitz. But that ain't the move that
Speaker 4: was pushing the Pirates across and right now Paul Schimes
Speaker 4: might win fifteen games a season for a sixty five
Speaker 4: at MAC seventy win team. Like it's a like, go
Speaker 4: and see the value, go and find it. Set a
Speaker 4: new bar. You have to do something new because you're
Speaker 4: not spending so you don't have four years of control
Speaker 4: with him. Technically in Pirate Land, you have like two
Speaker 4: and a half to three, because that's when they get
Speaker 4: rid of guys and trade him for you know, future
Speaker 4: all stars, like they did Tyler Glass, Now, like they
Speaker 4: did Garrett Cole, like they did all those things. Get something,
Speaker 4: get something right now, and change the bar.
Speaker 3: I think it could happen.
Speaker 1: I don't think it's gonna happen this year, though, I
Speaker 1: think that that's something that's gonna happen probably further down
Speaker 1: the line. And if they start a rebuild now, which
Speaker 1: I don't think they're going to, but if they start
Speaker 1: to rebuild now and deal off guys like Reynolds, Keller, Hayes,
Speaker 1: if anyone wants him, Paul might be the final move
Speaker 1: in that rebuild down the line when he's a little
Speaker 1: closer to arb and you can I also think that
Speaker 1: would have to be a move that's made over the offseason.
Speaker 1: I don't think anyone, like I said, would have the
Speaker 1: ability to acquire a player like that midseason.
Speaker 2: It is fascinating. At first you're looking like shut up,
Speaker 2: and then you're like, they eat a lot. Yeah, so
Speaker 2: well we'll bring you back and we'll talk it out
Speaker 2: again at some point. But no, thanks for the time, man, appreciate.
Speaker 3: It absolutely guys. Thanks for having me on