WEBVTT - Obsession 0:00:03.760 --> 0:00:07.800 The relationship between the girl growing up and her father. 0:00:08.280 --> 0:00:11.160 That is what makes a woman attracted to a bad 0:00:11.200 --> 0:00:12.160 boy of any type. 0:00:13.360 --> 0:00:15.800 Did these girls brush him off and reject him and 0:00:15.840 --> 0:00:19.560 he felt rejected in want revenge? Or were they actually nice? 0:00:19.760 --> 0:00:22.560 Did they say hi to him and he suddenly said, oh, 0:00:22.600 --> 0:00:23.479 they love me. 0:00:30.280 --> 0:00:34.120 This is the Idaho Massacre, a production of KATI Studios 0:00:34.240 --> 0:00:44.199 and iHeartRadio, Season two, Episode nine, Obsession. I'm Courtney Armstrong, 0:00:44.200 --> 0:00:48.040 a producer at KATI Studios with Stephanie Leideger and Gabe Castillo. 0:00:50.159 --> 0:00:54.360 Last episode, we left off on a short conversation between Stephanie, 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:59.600 journalist Connor Powell and data analyst Body Movin. They were 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:03.480 talking about women who are deeply, sometimes obsessively, attracted to 0:01:03.560 --> 0:01:07.800 dangerous men behind bars. I continued the conversation with Body, 0:01:08.080 --> 0:01:11.520 asking her to describe what is going on online with 0:01:11.640 --> 0:01:15.880 women gathering professing their love for a Ques murderer, Brian Coberger. 0:01:18.840 --> 0:01:20.920 If you look at the photos the Bribe Brys are 0:01:20.959 --> 0:01:26.319 posting to the subreddit to Brian's Girls subreddit, they're very childlike. 0:01:26.840 --> 0:01:30.160 They make these edits of Brian with you know, hearts 0:01:30.160 --> 0:01:33.160 in the background, and one of them has an altar 0:01:33.880 --> 0:01:38.199 with candles and pictures. I think these people are doing 0:01:38.240 --> 0:01:43.400 it for shock value reasons, like they're lacking something at home, 0:01:43.560 --> 0:01:45.919 or some believe they can change a man as cruel 0:01:45.920 --> 0:01:48.600 and powerful as a serial killer, because they don't really 0:01:48.600 --> 0:01:52.120 have any real connection to men. You know, some people 0:01:52.200 --> 0:01:54.600 hope to share in the media, spotlight, maybe get a 0:01:54.600 --> 0:01:57.000 book and movie deal. A couple of these people have 0:01:57.040 --> 0:01:59.560 had their names in the paper now. So when I 0:01:59.560 --> 0:02:01.600 look at the and I read their subreddit, because I 0:02:01.600 --> 0:02:04.200 do read it, it's not private, I feel like a 0:02:04.240 --> 0:02:09.040 lot of them are just angsty young people who are 0:02:09.880 --> 0:02:13.280 lashing back at society in any way they can. I 0:02:13.440 --> 0:02:15.079 know that some people will disagree with me, and that's 0:02:15.080 --> 0:02:19.120 totally fine. It's just my opinion and my very uneducated opinion. 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:21.480 But I'm very educated when it comes to that behavior, 0:02:21.600 --> 0:02:24.120 when it comes to troll behaviors, and it's it feels 0:02:24.200 --> 0:02:27.000 very trollish, but I think a lot of it comes 0:02:27.040 --> 0:02:30.080 down to a shock value. It's like when you're a 0:02:30.160 --> 0:02:33.200 teenager and you get a mohawk just to piss off 0:02:33.200 --> 0:02:35.680 your mom. It's kind of like that. And when you 0:02:35.720 --> 0:02:38.160 look at the memes and stuff that they're creating, a Brian. 0:02:38.400 --> 0:02:41.440 One of them put him in a barb meme and 0:02:41.480 --> 0:02:45.359 made him look like Ken. It's very immature. And when 0:02:45.360 --> 0:02:48.840 I say immature, I don't mean that their attitude is immature. 0:02:48.840 --> 0:02:51.880 I mean the edits they're making to these photos. And 0:02:52.200 --> 0:02:54.680 I just get a troll feeling from them. 0:02:55.280 --> 0:02:57.400 First of all, thank you for you know, giving a 0:02:57.400 --> 0:03:00.320 great picture of what's online. And yeah, it's I'm so 0:03:00.400 --> 0:03:04.560 curious to me, is there a context I'm not grocking 0:03:04.800 --> 0:03:07.200 with the barbies or I just. 0:03:07.200 --> 0:03:10.400 Think it's an immature kid, not necessarily a kid, but 0:03:10.480 --> 0:03:13.720 a young woman who lives in a fantasy world. Maybe 0:03:13.720 --> 0:03:16.960 she maladaptive, daydreams all day. And because there is this 0:03:17.120 --> 0:03:21.320 notion that she's going to have this perfect relationship with 0:03:21.360 --> 0:03:23.840 Brian Coberger. You know, he's not going to leave his 0:03:23.880 --> 0:03:27.600 socks on the floor. You know, he's behind bars. She's protected, 0:03:27.880 --> 0:03:29.799 she's not going to have to endure any day to 0:03:29.880 --> 0:03:33.440 day issues that most relationships have to, you know, go through, 0:03:34.080 --> 0:03:35.400 not going to have to There's not going to be 0:03:35.400 --> 0:03:38.760 any cooking or laundry. He's not gonna cheat on her, 0:03:39.040 --> 0:03:41.400 you know what I mean. Like it's the perfect boyfriend 0:03:41.840 --> 0:03:44.440 if you think about it, and he's famous on top 0:03:44.480 --> 0:03:47.680 of it, right. I do think that some of them 0:03:47.720 --> 0:03:51.360 do actually suffer from this paraphilia, though I really do, 0:03:51.800 --> 0:03:54.120 and the others their families need to get them some help, 0:03:54.520 --> 0:03:58.000 some mental health help, and I'm not qualified to speak 0:03:58.040 --> 0:03:58.400 about that. 0:04:00.840 --> 0:04:03.720 To better understand the phenomena, we reached out to board 0:04:03.800 --> 0:04:10.240 certified psychiatrist known as America's psychiatrist, doctor Krol Lieberman. Here 0:04:10.520 --> 0:04:12.600 the conversation Stephanie and I had with her. 0:04:16.440 --> 0:04:25.400 Hybristophilia is basically the love and sexual attraction to men 0:04:25.600 --> 0:04:27.320 who have committed crimes. 0:04:28.000 --> 0:04:31.560 Is hybristophilia? Is that a recognized psychiatric disorder? 0:04:32.440 --> 0:04:35.960 I mean it is a term that is recognized. There 0:04:36.040 --> 0:04:41.040 isn't a DSM diagnostic and statistical manual category for it, 0:04:41.839 --> 0:04:46.920 but more like a descriptive term than an actual separate diagnosis. 0:04:47.240 --> 0:04:47.599 I mean. 0:04:48.080 --> 0:04:51.440 In my book bad Boys, Why We Love Them, how 0:04:51.480 --> 0:04:53.400 to live with them, and when to leave them? I 0:04:53.520 --> 0:04:56.240 have twelve different types of bad boys that I describe, 0:04:56.520 --> 0:05:02.120 and the lethal lover is what I described as the ultimate, 0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:05.080 the worst type of bad boy. These are men who 0:05:05.080 --> 0:05:08.400 are in prison or who have committed crimes and the 0:05:08.440 --> 0:05:11.200 women who love them. In a general sense. You know, 0:05:11.279 --> 0:05:15.279 it comes from the relationship between the girl the growing 0:05:15.360 --> 0:05:18.960 up and her father. That is what makes a woman 0:05:19.040 --> 0:05:22.000 attracted to a bad boy of any type. And with 0:05:22.200 --> 0:05:26.720 the lethal lover type of bad boys, the fathers are 0:05:26.839 --> 0:05:32.000 particularly cruel and she grew up in a very dark, gloomy, 0:05:32.480 --> 0:05:38.680 dangerous household, very cold. And the way that the dysfunctional 0:05:38.720 --> 0:05:41.440 relationship with the father works is that it makes the 0:05:41.480 --> 0:05:45.120 girl growing up believe that she is not lovable. And 0:05:45.160 --> 0:05:49.279 there are many reasons why women are attracted to lethal lovers. 0:05:49.880 --> 0:05:51.160 Another reason why, in. 0:05:51.160 --> 0:05:54.920 General, is because they see the sad little boy inside 0:05:55.279 --> 0:05:59.600 and so they feel that they can not only tame him. 0:05:59.760 --> 0:06:03.839 But they can make him happy. They can fix him. 0:06:04.200 --> 0:06:07.960 And of course who needs fixing more than guys who 0:06:08.000 --> 0:06:11.359 have permitted crimes. And another reason why they're attracted to 0:06:11.480 --> 0:06:16.680 them is because they represent danger, and that's very powerful. 0:06:17.160 --> 0:06:20.560 It's an aphrodisiac when a man is dangerous. There are 0:06:20.560 --> 0:06:24.640 so many of these criminals behind bars who have so 0:06:24.839 --> 0:06:29.599 many women writing to them professing their love to them back. 0:06:29.880 --> 0:06:32.320 There was something just the other day about how one 0:06:32.360 --> 0:06:37.320 of the Boston bomber terrorists he has fifty thousand dollars 0:06:37.360 --> 0:06:40.520 or twenty thousand dollars some huge amount of money in 0:06:40.560 --> 0:06:44.599 his canteen in the prison that comes from women giving 0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:45.200 him money. 0:06:45.440 --> 0:06:47.919 I mean, he's a terrorist. He killed people. 0:06:48.400 --> 0:06:52.200 Convicted, I might add, it's not even up for conversation, 0:06:52.480 --> 0:06:56.320 like these are violent criminals, you know, because that's a distinction. 0:06:56.839 --> 0:06:59.520 But is there a big distinction between a bad boy 0:06:59.680 --> 0:07:02.960 who rides a motorcycle and seeks out at night and 0:07:03.000 --> 0:07:06.720 maybe is a little rough and tumble versus a straight 0:07:07.400 --> 0:07:12.800 violent criminal and maybe moreover, someone who's going to be 0:07:12.800 --> 0:07:16.920 behind bars till the end of days potentially? What is 0:07:16.960 --> 0:07:20.320 it about that being attractive? Is it the fact that 0:07:20.320 --> 0:07:23.720 they're so dependent on you and there's no competition, you 0:07:23.760 --> 0:07:26.559 know where they are at night? Are they just maybe 0:07:26.600 --> 0:07:29.080 more faithful because you know that they're locked in a 0:07:29.120 --> 0:07:30.920 cell for the rest of their lives. 0:07:31.440 --> 0:07:31.960 All of that. 0:07:32.560 --> 0:07:36.520 I mean, look Brian Coburger, for example, he hasn't been convicted, 0:07:36.760 --> 0:07:39.280 so yes, he might be in jail forever. And yet 0:07:39.320 --> 0:07:41.960 still there are all these women who are attracted to him. 0:07:42.680 --> 0:07:45.640 There are women that love him, that write him daily, 0:07:45.800 --> 0:07:48.560 that basically say that they see the little boy in him, 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:51.920 just like you described. And look, he's a nice looking, 0:07:51.960 --> 0:07:55.160 well raised young man. What he's being accused of is 0:07:55.360 --> 0:08:00.840 wildly violent. So even if that's a TBD, and yes 0:08:00.920 --> 0:08:04.040 he has not been convicted and claims his innocence, but 0:08:04.160 --> 0:08:05.920 what if these are. 0:08:05.800 --> 0:08:09.960 Women who typically have not had much success themselves in 0:08:10.040 --> 0:08:14.120 their love life, and so part of them also identifies 0:08:14.320 --> 0:08:16.720 with him. 0:08:16.840 --> 0:08:19.320 We asked doctor Carol as she had experience with any 0:08:19.400 --> 0:08:21.400 other notorious men behind bars. 0:08:22.600 --> 0:08:26.160 When I was on Sally Jesse Raphael, the show was 0:08:26.640 --> 0:08:31.360 Women who Love Men in Jail, Men in Prison, And 0:08:31.480 --> 0:08:34.679 there were three or four different men, and then there 0:08:34.679 --> 0:08:37.360 were the women who loved them. And Richard Ramirez was 0:08:37.400 --> 0:08:40.160 one of the men, and he obviously he wasn't in 0:08:40.200 --> 0:08:44.079 the studio. They had him on camera from the jail. 0:08:44.480 --> 0:08:46.920 So for the other two men, each one had a 0:08:46.960 --> 0:08:50.800 woman who loved them. For Richard Ramirez, there were two women, 0:08:51.160 --> 0:08:54.000 and the thing was that neither one of them knew 0:08:54.040 --> 0:08:57.680 about the other. They thought they were going to marry 0:08:58.200 --> 0:09:03.920 Richard Ramirez, the nightstalker. The nightstalker, Yes, he had killed women, 0:09:04.040 --> 0:09:07.600 strangled them, raped them, all kinds of horrible things, but 0:09:07.640 --> 0:09:10.720 they wanted to marry him. So when they saw each other, 0:09:11.400 --> 0:09:14.560 they couldn't believe it. You write to Richard Ramirez, you 0:09:14.600 --> 0:09:17.520 talked to her what and they started fighting with each other. 0:09:18.000 --> 0:09:21.520 They started a brawl right there on the stage. And 0:09:21.640 --> 0:09:25.360 the gist of it was, why would you think that 0:09:25.480 --> 0:09:30.040 a man who had murdered, rape, strangled thirteen women at 0:09:30.120 --> 0:09:32.880 least would be faithful to you like he did all 0:09:32.920 --> 0:09:35.640 these other horrible things, and you think he's gonna. 0:09:35.440 --> 0:09:36.360 Be a good boy. 0:09:37.040 --> 0:09:39.760 You could trust him, he's gonna be a loving husband. 0:09:40.320 --> 0:09:42.280 I mean, it was so crazy that they just kind 0:09:42.320 --> 0:09:45.760 of assumed that they were it. There were tons of 0:09:45.800 --> 0:09:48.600 women writing to him, so they probably each thought they 0:09:48.600 --> 0:09:49.440 were the only one. 0:09:53.920 --> 0:09:56.480 I asked doctor Carroll about an open letter she wrote 0:09:56.559 --> 0:09:59.280 for Newsweek. It was addressed to a woman named Brittany 0:09:59.320 --> 0:10:02.120 Heislope who made it publicly known that she's in love 0:10:02.120 --> 0:10:05.800 with Brian Coburger and calls him, quote the perfect man. 0:10:07.559 --> 0:10:12.080 As you saw in my article in Newsweek, I wrote 0:10:12.120 --> 0:10:13.920 a letter to this woman, Brittany J. 0:10:14.320 --> 0:10:17.720 Heislope. She was the first one or the first one. 0:10:17.559 --> 0:10:22.079 That was known widely in terms of the lovers of Coburger, 0:10:22.280 --> 0:10:25.320 Brian Coburger, and so I wrote to her about that. 0:10:25.600 --> 0:10:28.040 I'll read you some of the things that I wrote. Okay, 0:10:28.120 --> 0:10:31.840 So she describes herself as feeling love sick about Coburger 0:10:31.880 --> 0:10:34.920 when she wrote letters to him on Facebook. You know 0:10:35.000 --> 0:10:37.120 he's your one true love, and your love is very real. 0:10:37.160 --> 0:10:39.640 This is what you think you feel. He's lonely and 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:42.640 sad in jail, and that no one understands him like 0:10:42.679 --> 0:10:46.760 you do. You want to rescue Brian. He's been misunderstood 0:10:46.800 --> 0:10:49.560 all his life. You know what that feels like, because 0:10:49.559 --> 0:10:52.960 you've been misunderstood too. You want to believe he's not guilty. 0:10:53.280 --> 0:10:55.120 Have you thought about the fact that he may have 0:10:55.200 --> 0:10:58.080 other women writing to him too, other women who have 0:10:58.160 --> 0:11:00.840 fallen in love with him like you. You might never 0:11:00.920 --> 0:11:03.880 know about this until you've wasted years pining for him. 0:11:04.200 --> 0:11:07.840 So then I conclude by saying, get some psychotherapy and 0:11:07.920 --> 0:11:10.600 work on your feelings of not being lovable enough. But 0:11:10.679 --> 0:11:13.040 with therapy you'll discover that a man who is already 0:11:13.040 --> 0:11:15.760 out in the real world will make you happier than 0:11:15.800 --> 0:11:18.160 you deserve it. 0:11:18.160 --> 0:11:20.960 It turns out Coburger was not this woman's first time 0:11:21.120 --> 0:11:26.000 experiencing obsessive feelings for an incarcerated man. In fact, doctor 0:11:26.040 --> 0:11:28.400 Carroll has spoken with the mother of a man Brittany 0:11:28.480 --> 0:11:30.760 High Slope used to visit while he was in prison. 0:11:32.200 --> 0:11:35.120 This was a man who was accused of killing somebody. 0:11:35.400 --> 0:11:38.239 As she gave him money, she put money in his canteen. 0:11:38.720 --> 0:11:42.480 In the end, after a few months, this young man 0:11:42.720 --> 0:11:45.800 told his mother to tell her to stop, you know, 0:11:45.920 --> 0:11:48.160 writing to him and coming to visit him and all that. 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:50.920 She didn't stop after the mother told her to stop, 0:11:51.160 --> 0:11:53.160 and so one time when she was visiting him, the 0:11:53.160 --> 0:11:55.360 next time he told her that she had to stop. 0:11:55.480 --> 0:11:57.520 I mean, in other words, the mother said she was 0:11:57.559 --> 0:12:01.640 even too crazy for my son, even with all the perks, 0:12:01.679 --> 0:12:04.520 you know, the nice letters, love you, blah blah blah, 0:12:04.559 --> 0:12:07.360 and the money, and he couldn't deal with her, you know. 0:12:07.480 --> 0:12:12.640 He It's so ironic with Brian Coburger because throughout his 0:12:12.720 --> 0:12:16.600 life he has been rejected time and time again, starting 0:12:16.600 --> 0:12:19.720 in middle school. This got worse in high school. It's 0:12:19.720 --> 0:12:22.720 so ironic because now that he's in jail, now he 0:12:22.760 --> 0:12:26.280 has all these women throwing themselves at him. His reward, 0:12:26.520 --> 0:12:29.120 so to speak, is getting all these women who he 0:12:29.160 --> 0:12:32.079 never got before to write him love letters and want 0:12:32.120 --> 0:12:32.760 to marry him. 0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:33.360 And all of that. 0:12:33.720 --> 0:12:38.800 Is there any part on the women's part of being 0:12:38.880 --> 0:12:41.480 wrapped up in sort of the notoriety. 0:12:42.360 --> 0:12:43.440 That's a part of it too. 0:12:43.960 --> 0:12:49.400 Yes, sometimes women want to marry the man because if 0:12:49.440 --> 0:12:52.679 they did, you know, had a jail house wedding, there 0:12:52.720 --> 0:12:55.480 would be tons of media and they. 0:12:55.400 --> 0:12:57.760 Would get to be as famous as the man. 0:12:58.080 --> 0:13:00.880 Are you familiar with the online group of the bride 0:13:01.040 --> 0:13:05.600 Ryese or Brian's Girls. It seems to me it's like 0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:08.560 a group mentality, all of these women professing their love 0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:14.680 and putting together pictures of the accused in alter scenarios 0:13:15.080 --> 0:13:18.960 or with hearts all around him. And I was curious 0:13:19.000 --> 0:13:22.240 from sort of a psychological perspective of are these women 0:13:23.320 --> 0:13:25.600 do you imagine they're egging each other on? Do you 0:13:25.640 --> 0:13:28.320 imagine that it's competition between them? 0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:32.439 Well, it's interesting, you know, because that's that's a little 0:13:32.440 --> 0:13:35.400 different than what I was describing with Richard Ramirez. Now 0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:39.840 in the group Brian's Girls, it's kind of interesting that they, 0:13:40.520 --> 0:13:44.080 I mean, I guess they're finding companionship or support in 0:13:44.120 --> 0:13:47.280 the fact that that other women are so entranced by 0:13:47.360 --> 0:13:50.360 him too. And I'll bet you though that each one 0:13:50.400 --> 0:13:52.880 of them, I'm sure they've been writing to him, not 0:13:53.080 --> 0:13:56.400 just you know, not just in this group. Each one 0:13:56.440 --> 0:13:59.800 of them must think that Brian really loves them, that 0:13:59.840 --> 0:14:04.960 they she's his girl. These girls, may you be writing 0:14:05.000 --> 0:14:08.400 all these things online and we can talk about him. Yes, 0:14:08.520 --> 0:14:12.040 isn't he adorable and blah blah blah, but each one 0:14:12.120 --> 0:14:14.880 is probably thinking or at least hoping, that they're the 0:14:14.920 --> 0:14:15.880 one he really loves. 0:14:16.520 --> 0:14:19.680 There was one and this was reported on the news. 0:14:20.080 --> 0:14:24.080 A woman in the group. I believe she's the leader, 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:29.120 the founder of the group. She physically carved Brian Kohlberger's 0:14:29.360 --> 0:14:33.480 entire name and his initials into her skin. 0:14:34.400 --> 0:14:36.160 That is definitely sick. 0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:42.960 I mean, that is definitely goes beyond just loving you know, 0:14:43.160 --> 0:14:47.040 a bad boy. I mean some of these women are 0:14:47.400 --> 0:14:50.720 actually mentally ill. Some of them take it beyond the 0:14:50.840 --> 0:14:53.280 edge and they do have some kind of mental illness. 0:14:53.880 --> 0:14:57.880 They could be borderline, or they could be manic, depressive, bipolar, 0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:02.560 but have some kind of diagnosible mental disorder. Because that, 0:15:02.960 --> 0:15:05.920 I mean, that's supposed to show that she loves him 0:15:05.960 --> 0:15:09.480 the most. Right, Look, I love him more than you girls. 0:15:09.760 --> 0:15:12.720 Look what I did. You know, I'm the real one, 0:15:12.880 --> 0:15:14.440 that his real love. 0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:16.960 And all that kind of stuff. He needs mental health help. 0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:19.680 She needs to be in therapy, just like I recommended 0:15:19.680 --> 0:15:22.680 to Brittany Heislope that that girl definitely needs to be 0:15:22.680 --> 0:15:23.120 in therapy. 0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:24.840 Is there anything else you'd like to share? 0:15:25.480 --> 0:15:28.480 I'll just say that if you are a woman who 0:15:28.600 --> 0:15:32.000 is thinking about writing letters too, or becoming in love 0:15:32.080 --> 0:15:35.040 with or wanting to marry one of these criminals. 0:15:34.840 --> 0:15:35.480 Think twice. 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:38.080 Realize that this is a reflection about yourself and your 0:15:38.120 --> 0:15:41.320 insecurity and your relationship with your father, and get therapy 0:15:41.360 --> 0:15:42.520 instead of writing letters. 0:15:45.960 --> 0:15:48.560 Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in 0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:58.720 a moment. The women we've been speaking about are looking 0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:01.720 in on the accused, hoping to be part of his world, 0:16:01.920 --> 0:16:06.760 while simultaneously posting outwardly on social media so everyone will 0:16:06.800 --> 0:16:09.560 know they are the ones in love with an alleged murderer. 0:16:11.160 --> 0:16:15.120 From looking at this psychological perspective, we switch the lens 0:16:15.160 --> 0:16:18.320 to a pop culture perspective and look at how those 0:16:18.360 --> 0:16:22.720 influences might possibly imprint on a murderer. How does the 0:16:22.760 --> 0:16:26.440 presentation of violence and horror movies mirror back what's going 0:16:26.480 --> 0:16:30.680 on in our own worlds. As for accused murderer Brian Coburger, 0:16:31.000 --> 0:16:34.400 there's a much reported on example that starts very close 0:16:34.440 --> 0:16:34.800 to home. 0:16:39.240 --> 0:16:44.560 Brian Coberger's sister was an actress and she was in 0:16:44.600 --> 0:16:49.239 this movie called Two Days Back, and the loose timeline 0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:53.920 story plot on that is that co eds go out 0:16:53.920 --> 0:16:58.000 into the woods and not all of them return. In fact, 0:16:58.360 --> 0:17:01.760 several of them meet their own untimely death in very 0:17:01.800 --> 0:17:05.960 scary ways, including with a knife and a hatchet, and 0:17:06.440 --> 0:17:09.360 it's a slash reflick and just looking at the timeline. 0:17:09.600 --> 0:17:12.000 That particular movie that his older sister was in was 0:17:12.040 --> 0:17:16.640 released on November eighteenth, twenty eleven, and the murders happened, 0:17:17.040 --> 0:17:20.520 as we know, on November thirteenth, twenty twenty two. But 0:17:20.600 --> 0:17:23.719 what we're really trying to pinpoint here is something that 0:17:24.240 --> 0:17:26.880 we've been learning about, which is kind of about these 0:17:26.920 --> 0:17:32.719 social imprints that maybe set into somebody's mind that similarly 0:17:32.760 --> 0:17:36.879 how police investigators and detectives create a wall that has 0:17:37.280 --> 0:17:40.080 the facts and how this piece of evidence was found 0:17:40.080 --> 0:17:42.000 here and then this piece of evidence was found there. 0:17:42.240 --> 0:17:46.040 Those are the facts, and then sometimes there's a psychological 0:17:46.080 --> 0:17:51.080 profile that looks at certain imprints of a person's life 0:17:51.240 --> 0:17:54.600 and to see if that tells a story. And obviously, 0:17:54.600 --> 0:17:57.080 in no way are we saying that Brian Koberger is 0:17:57.080 --> 0:18:00.680 guilty of the crimes that he claims his since four 0:18:00.840 --> 0:18:03.160 to this day and has not been found guilty yet. 0:18:03.240 --> 0:18:08.000 But in the spirit of this unpacking what imprints maybe 0:18:08.119 --> 0:18:12.360 would have shaped a potential killer's mind. Is there any 0:18:12.359 --> 0:18:16.680 crossover there? So we brought in pop culture expert Dorano Fear. 0:18:17.400 --> 0:18:19.200 I'm a horror fan. 0:18:19.840 --> 0:18:24.679 I like to compare the historical relevance of horror and 0:18:24.680 --> 0:18:28.159 how it affects society's deepest fears. And it's always been 0:18:28.200 --> 0:18:31.520 a reflection because what happens in our real world then 0:18:31.880 --> 0:18:34.600 inspires horror, and it's been going on, you know, since 0:18:34.640 --> 0:18:38.560 the twenties, the event of film. How So, during the 0:18:38.640 --> 0:18:41.400 time of post World War One, it was the rise 0:18:41.440 --> 0:18:44.439 of German expressionism. So that's when we got movies in 0:18:44.440 --> 0:18:47.920 the Silent era that were like Nosferatu or The Cabinet 0:18:47.920 --> 0:18:51.879 of Doctor Kilgarry, which explored themes of madness, extential dread, 0:18:52.400 --> 0:18:55.880 the unknown. Horror has always gone into the darker themes, 0:18:56.040 --> 0:18:58.600 and if you look at classic horror movies like Frankenstein, 0:18:59.040 --> 0:19:01.199 it was the people that turned on the monster, but 0:19:01.240 --> 0:19:03.639 the monster wasn't the epitome of evil and when you 0:19:03.680 --> 0:19:06.720 really look a decade by decade, you know, the fifties 0:19:06.760 --> 0:19:10.640 brought about like a Cold War paranoia, and pop culture 0:19:10.680 --> 0:19:12.360 reflected that instantly. 0:19:12.600 --> 0:19:15.560 It caught up to it, like in real time. 0:19:15.720 --> 0:19:18.160 And then the biggest movies of that decade were things 0:19:18.240 --> 0:19:21.720 like Invasion of the Body Snackers or The Day the 0:19:21.760 --> 0:19:23.480 Earth Shirt. Still and by the way, this is a 0:19:23.480 --> 0:19:27.080 global thing. This is not an American thing, because you know, 0:19:27.160 --> 0:19:30.840 Japan released Godzilla and that was you know, until this day. 0:19:30.960 --> 0:19:37.240 These are icons of pop culture heroism and fear. Now 0:19:37.280 --> 0:19:39.040 you get into a whole other era when you get 0:19:39.040 --> 0:19:40.680 into the sixties and we start dealing with like the 0:19:40.720 --> 0:19:44.280 Civil Rights movement is social and heaval. And look, that's 0:19:44.320 --> 0:19:47.159 where I started getting involved because when I first saw 0:19:47.680 --> 0:19:50.040 Knight of a Living Dead, I was really stunned by 0:19:50.040 --> 0:19:53.719 that movie because first of all, it was George Romero 0:19:53.880 --> 0:19:56.919 invented the concept of the zombie in film, it was 0:19:57.000 --> 0:20:01.000 a terrifying portrayal of this other and this idea that 0:20:01.359 --> 0:20:03.159 people come back to life and they are here to 0:20:03.240 --> 0:20:05.679 kill you and eat you. But it was really an 0:20:05.720 --> 0:20:08.480 allegory because that's a movie about racism. So it's a 0:20:08.520 --> 0:20:11.399 reflection in horror and that was the first movie to 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:14.920 really show very graphic violence, you know, and it reflected 0:20:15.000 --> 0:20:19.320 social instability and the questioning of authority and norms. And 0:20:19.400 --> 0:20:21.760 it was in nineteen sixty that we got the first 0:20:22.240 --> 0:20:28.560 real Hollywood serial killer with Anthony Perkins in his portrayal 0:20:28.560 --> 0:20:31.679 of Psycho, which was kind of the first time that 0:20:31.760 --> 0:20:35.880 American audiences had to face the idea of mental illness 0:20:36.400 --> 0:20:40.679 and the idea of psychopathy, which really has stayed with 0:20:40.760 --> 0:20:45.040 us since we got into religious temitar like The Exorcist 0:20:45.119 --> 0:20:46.800 and The Omen, which, by the way, The Omen is 0:20:46.800 --> 0:20:49.040 my favorite horror movie of all time. But that was 0:20:49.119 --> 0:20:52.600 also the birth of the real slasher movies. Although Psycho 0:20:52.640 --> 0:20:55.000 is considered a slasher movie, but you never really saw 0:20:55.440 --> 0:20:58.440 you never saw the violence it was perceived, and that's 0:20:58.440 --> 0:21:02.480 what made it so terrifying. Roman Polanski used Rosemary's Baby 0:21:02.640 --> 0:21:06.919 as a sort of a view a capitalist theory, because 0:21:07.000 --> 0:21:09.520 the truth is is that Rosemary's Baby, although dealing with 0:21:09.520 --> 0:21:13.119 satanism and the fear of women and birth and the 0:21:13.240 --> 0:21:17.239 non control of their own body, it also exhibited the 0:21:17.240 --> 0:21:21.920 betrayal of the people that she loved most for economic gain, 0:21:22.640 --> 0:21:24.960 because her husband sells her out in that again, this 0:21:25.000 --> 0:21:26.359 is going to be all spoiler. 0:21:25.960 --> 0:21:29.040 Alerts for fame by the way he sells her out 0:21:29.200 --> 0:21:32.399 so he can be famous. That's such an interesting theme 0:21:32.840 --> 0:21:34.639 that we're kind of seeing there a little bit for 0:21:34.720 --> 0:21:35.520 the first time. 0:21:36.040 --> 0:21:38.959 Well, it deals with the idea of capitalism, you know, 0:21:39.080 --> 0:21:43.040 and simultaneously because socially, women are now becoming standing on 0:21:43.080 --> 0:21:46.280 their own and their world of feminism and abortion is 0:21:46.320 --> 0:21:49.800 the topic, and the freedom of sexuality after the sixties 0:21:49.840 --> 0:21:53.520 and the free love movement. The religious kind of connotation 0:21:54.400 --> 0:21:59.639 is that morals were gone. So you then experience the 0:21:59.680 --> 0:22:03.040 birth of the slasher movie, the real slasher movies, and 0:22:03.080 --> 0:22:07.160 it starts with Texas jamesaw Massacre and Toby Hooper terrified 0:22:07.160 --> 0:22:09.480 the world with that. Now that was also loosely based 0:22:09.520 --> 0:22:12.600 on a real story. So that was loosely based on 0:22:12.600 --> 0:22:15.760 the serial killer Ed Geen, you know, who's murdered people 0:22:16.040 --> 0:22:20.240 and he wore their skins, which that theme gets repeated 0:22:20.280 --> 0:22:22.840 over and over again, including Silence of the Lambs. So 0:22:22.880 --> 0:22:25.720 you're seeing a pattern here of how audiences want to 0:22:25.840 --> 0:22:29.600 escape their internal fears or see their internal fears projected 0:22:29.640 --> 0:22:32.359 on a big screen where they can process it, which 0:22:32.400 --> 0:22:35.719 is very similar of why true crime and the realism 0:22:35.760 --> 0:22:39.280 of fear now works because people can't process it in 0:22:39.320 --> 0:22:42.280 their brain or imagine the horror of it until they 0:22:42.359 --> 0:22:45.360 see it. And then once they see it, it becomes 0:22:45.440 --> 0:22:48.720 less afraid because they can process how to deal with 0:22:48.760 --> 0:22:53.240 it if it ever comes knocking. At this point in time, 0:22:54.160 --> 0:22:58.040 movies still had the Motion Picture Ratings Association had a 0:22:58.080 --> 0:23:00.720 lot of control, so they were rated movies to stop 0:23:00.800 --> 0:23:04.879 kids from watching it. But that really lost power with 0:23:05.119 --> 0:23:08.359 nineteen seventy eight and the birth of Michael Myers and Halloween, 0:23:08.640 --> 0:23:10.919 and when you deal with that, now you're dealing with 0:23:11.680 --> 0:23:15.000 the concept of true evil in a child form that 0:23:15.040 --> 0:23:19.040 becomes an adult and his whole reason for killing goes 0:23:19.080 --> 0:23:22.719 back to this moral compass. Why was he killing co eds? 0:23:22.760 --> 0:23:24.679 Why was he killing high school kids? Why was he 0:23:24.760 --> 0:23:28.120