1 00:00:03,760 --> 00:00:07,800 Speaker 1: The relationship between the girl growing up and her father. 2 00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:11,160 Speaker 1: That is what makes a woman attracted to a bad 3 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:12,160 Speaker 1: boy of any type. 4 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 2: Did these girls brush him off and reject him and 5 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:19,560 Speaker 2: he felt rejected in want revenge? Or were they actually nice? 6 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 2: Did they say hi to him and he suddenly said, oh, 7 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:23,479 Speaker 2: they love me. 8 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 3: This is the Idaho Massacre, a production of KATI Studios 9 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:44,199 Speaker 3: and iHeartRadio, Season two, Episode nine, Obsession. I'm Courtney Armstrong, 10 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 3: a producer at KATI Studios with Stephanie Leideger and Gabe Castillo. 11 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 3: Last episode, we left off on a short conversation between Stephanie, 12 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 3: journalist Connor Powell and data analyst Body Movin. They were 13 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 3: talking about women who are deeply, sometimes obsessively, attracted to 14 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 3: dangerous men behind bars. I continued the conversation with Body, 15 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 3: asking her to describe what is going on online with 16 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 3: women gathering professing their love for a Ques murderer, Brian Coberger. 17 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 4: If you look at the photos the Bribe Brys are 18 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:26,319 Speaker 4: posting to the subreddit to Brian's Girls subreddit, they're very childlike. 19 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 4: They make these edits of Brian with you know, hearts 20 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 4: in the background, and one of them has an altar 21 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:38,199 Speaker 4: with candles and pictures. I think these people are doing 22 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:43,400 Speaker 4: it for shock value reasons, like they're lacking something at home, 23 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:45,919 Speaker 4: or some believe they can change a man as cruel 24 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 4: and powerful as a serial killer, because they don't really 25 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 4: have any real connection to men. You know, some people 26 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 4: hope to share in the media, spotlight, maybe get a 27 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 4: book and movie deal. A couple of these people have 28 00:01:57,040 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 4: had their names in the paper now. So when I 29 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 4: look at the and I read their subreddit, because I 30 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 4: do read it, it's not private, I feel like a 31 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 4: lot of them are just angsty young people who are 32 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 4: lashing back at society in any way they can. I 33 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:15,079 Speaker 4: know that some people will disagree with me, and that's 34 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:19,120 Speaker 4: totally fine. It's just my opinion and my very uneducated opinion. 35 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 4: But I'm very educated when it comes to that behavior, 36 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 4: when it comes to troll behaviors, and it's it feels 37 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 4: very trollish, but I think a lot of it comes 38 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 4: down to a shock value. It's like when you're a 39 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 4: teenager and you get a mohawk just to piss off 40 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:35,680 Speaker 4: your mom. It's kind of like that. And when you 41 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 4: look at the memes and stuff that they're creating, a Brian. 42 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 4: One of them put him in a barb meme and 43 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:45,359 Speaker 4: made him look like Ken. It's very immature. And when 44 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 4: I say immature, I don't mean that their attitude is immature. 45 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 4: I mean the edits they're making to these photos. And 46 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:54,680 Speaker 4: I just get a troll feeling from them. 47 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 3: First of all, thank you for you know, giving a 48 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 3: great picture of what's online. And yeah, it's I'm so 49 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 3: curious to me, is there a context I'm not grocking 50 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 3: with the barbies or I just. 51 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 4: Think it's an immature kid, not necessarily a kid, but 52 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 4: a young woman who lives in a fantasy world. Maybe 53 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:16,960 Speaker 4: she maladaptive, daydreams all day. And because there is this 54 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 4: notion that she's going to have this perfect relationship with 55 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 4: Brian Coberger. You know, he's not going to leave his 56 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 4: socks on the floor. You know, he's behind bars. She's protected, 57 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:29,799 Speaker 4: she's not going to have to endure any day to 58 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 4: day issues that most relationships have to, you know, go through, 59 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 4: not going to have to There's not going to be 60 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 4: any cooking or laundry. He's not gonna cheat on her, 61 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 4: you know what I mean. Like it's the perfect boyfriend 62 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 4: if you think about it, and he's famous on top 63 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 4: of it, right. I do think that some of them 64 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 4: do actually suffer from this paraphilia, though I really do, 65 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 4: and the others their families need to get them some help, 66 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 4: some mental health help, and I'm not qualified to speak 67 00:03:58,040 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 4: about that. 68 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 3: To better understand the phenomena, we reached out to board 69 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 3: certified psychiatrist known as America's psychiatrist, doctor Krol Lieberman. Here 70 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 3: the conversation Stephanie and I had with her. 71 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 1: Hybristophilia is basically the love and sexual attraction to men 72 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 1: who have committed crimes. 73 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 3: Is hybristophilia? Is that a recognized psychiatric disorder? 74 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 1: I mean it is a term that is recognized. There 75 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:41,040 Speaker 1: isn't a DSM diagnostic and statistical manual category for it, 76 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 1: but more like a descriptive term than an actual separate diagnosis. 77 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:47,599 Speaker 5: I mean. 78 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:51,440 Speaker 1: In my book bad Boys, Why We Love Them, how 79 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 1: to live with them, and when to leave them? I 80 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:56,240 Speaker 1: have twelve different types of bad boys that I describe, 81 00:04:56,520 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 1: and the lethal lover is what I described as the ultimate, 82 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 1: the worst type of bad boy. These are men who 83 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 1: are in prison or who have committed crimes and the 84 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 1: women who love them. In a general sense. You know, 85 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:15,279 Speaker 1: it comes from the relationship between the girl the growing 86 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 1: up and her father. That is what makes a woman 87 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 1: attracted to a bad boy of any type. And with 88 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:26,720 Speaker 1: the lethal lover type of bad boys, the fathers are 89 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 1: particularly cruel and she grew up in a very dark, gloomy, 90 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 1: dangerous household, very cold. And the way that the dysfunctional 91 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 1: relationship with the father works is that it makes the 92 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 1: girl growing up believe that she is not lovable. And 93 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:49,279 Speaker 1: there are many reasons why women are attracted to lethal lovers. 94 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:51,160 Speaker 5: Another reason why, in. 95 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:54,920 Speaker 1: General, is because they see the sad little boy inside 96 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:59,600 Speaker 1: and so they feel that they can not only tame him. 97 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:03,839 Speaker 5: But they can make him happy. They can fix him. 98 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 1: And of course who needs fixing more than guys who 99 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:11,359 Speaker 1: have permitted crimes. And another reason why they're attracted to 100 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 1: them is because they represent danger, and that's very powerful. 101 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 1: It's an aphrodisiac when a man is dangerous. There are 102 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 1: so many of these criminals behind bars who have so 103 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:29,599 Speaker 1: many women writing to them professing their love to them back. 104 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 1: There was something just the other day about how one 105 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 1: of the Boston bomber terrorists he has fifty thousand dollars 106 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 1: or twenty thousand dollars some huge amount of money in 107 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:44,599 Speaker 1: his canteen in the prison that comes from women giving 108 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 1: him money. 109 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:47,919 Speaker 5: I mean, he's a terrorist. He killed people. 110 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 6: Convicted, I might add, it's not even up for conversation, 111 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 6: like these are violent criminals, you know, because that's a distinction. 112 00:06:56,839 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 6: But is there a big distinction between a bad boy 113 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 6: who rides a motorcycle and seeks out at night and 114 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:06,720 Speaker 6: maybe is a little rough and tumble versus a straight 115 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 6: violent criminal and maybe moreover, someone who's going to be 116 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 6: behind bars till the end of days potentially? What is 117 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 6: it about that being attractive? Is it the fact that 118 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 6: they're so dependent on you and there's no competition, you 119 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:26,559 Speaker 6: know where they are at night? Are they just maybe 120 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 6: more faithful because you know that they're locked in a 121 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 6: cell for the rest of their lives. 122 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 5: All of that. 123 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 1: I mean, look Brian Coburger, for example, he hasn't been convicted, 124 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 1: so yes, he might be in jail forever. And yet 125 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 1: still there are all these women who are attracted to him. 126 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 6: There are women that love him, that write him daily, 127 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 6: that basically say that they see the little boy in him, 128 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 6: just like you described. And look, he's a nice looking, 129 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 6: well raised young man. What he's being accused of is 130 00:07:55,360 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 6: wildly violent. So even if that's a TBD, and yes 131 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 6: he has not been convicted and claims his innocence, but 132 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 6: what if these are. 133 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 1: Women who typically have not had much success themselves in 134 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 1: their love life, and so part of them also identifies 135 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 1: with him. 136 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 3: We asked doctor Carol as she had experience with any 137 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 3: other notorious men behind bars. 138 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 1: When I was on Sally Jesse Raphael, the show was 139 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 1: Women who Love Men in Jail, Men in Prison, And 140 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:34,679 Speaker 1: there were three or four different men, and then there 141 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 1: were the women who loved them. And Richard Ramirez was 142 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 1: one of the men, and he obviously he wasn't in 143 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:44,079 Speaker 1: the studio. They had him on camera from the jail. 144 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 1: So for the other two men, each one had a 145 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 1: woman who loved them. For Richard Ramirez, there were two women, 146 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 1: and the thing was that neither one of them knew 147 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:57,680 Speaker 1: about the other. They thought they were going to marry 148 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 1: Richard Ramirez, the nightstalker. The nightstalker, Yes, he had killed women, 149 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 1: strangled them, raped them, all kinds of horrible things, but 150 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 1: they wanted to marry him. So when they saw each other, 151 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:14,560 Speaker 1: they couldn't believe it. You write to Richard Ramirez, you 152 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 1: talked to her what and they started fighting with each other. 153 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 1: They started a brawl right there on the stage. And 154 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 1: the gist of it was, why would you think that 155 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 1: a man who had murdered, rape, strangled thirteen women at 156 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 1: least would be faithful to you like he did all 157 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 1: these other horrible things, and you think he's gonna. 158 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 5: Be a good boy. 159 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 1: You could trust him, he's gonna be a loving husband. 160 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 1: I mean, it was so crazy that they just kind 161 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 1: of assumed that they were it. There were tons of 162 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 1: women writing to him, so they probably each thought they 163 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:49,440 Speaker 1: were the only one. 164 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 3: I asked doctor Carroll about an open letter she wrote 165 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 3: for Newsweek. It was addressed to a woman named Brittany 166 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 3: Heislope who made it publicly known that she's in love 167 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 3: with Brian Coburger and calls him, quote the perfect man. 168 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 1: As you saw in my article in Newsweek, I wrote 169 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 1: a letter to this woman, Brittany J. 170 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:17,720 Speaker 5: Heislope. She was the first one or the first one. 171 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:22,079 Speaker 1: That was known widely in terms of the lovers of Coburger, 172 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:25,320 Speaker 1: Brian Coburger, and so I wrote to her about that. 173 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 1: I'll read you some of the things that I wrote. Okay, 174 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 1: So she describes herself as feeling love sick about Coburger 175 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 1: when she wrote letters to him on Facebook. You know 176 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 1: he's your one true love, and your love is very real. 177 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 1: This is what you think you feel. He's lonely and 178 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 1: sad in jail, and that no one understands him like 179 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 1: you do. You want to rescue Brian. He's been misunderstood 180 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:49,560 Speaker 1: all his life. You know what that feels like, because 181 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 1: you've been misunderstood too. You want to believe he's not guilty. 182 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 1: Have you thought about the fact that he may have 183 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 1: other women writing to him too, other women who have 184 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:00,840 Speaker 1: fallen in love with him like you. You might never 185 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 1: know about this until you've wasted years pining for him. 186 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:07,840 Speaker 1: So then I conclude by saying, get some psychotherapy and 187 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 1: work on your feelings of not being lovable enough. But 188 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 1: with therapy you'll discover that a man who is already 189 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 1: out in the real world will make you happier than 190 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 1: you deserve it. 191 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 3: It turns out Coburger was not this woman's first time 192 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 3: experiencing obsessive feelings for an incarcerated man. In fact, doctor 193 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 3: Carroll has spoken with the mother of a man Brittany 194 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 3: High Slope used to visit while he was in prison. 195 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 1: This was a man who was accused of killing somebody. 196 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:38,239 Speaker 1: As she gave him money, she put money in his canteen. 197 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 1: In the end, after a few months, this young man 198 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 1: told his mother to tell her to stop, you know, 199 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 1: writing to him and coming to visit him and all that. 200 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 1: She didn't stop after the mother told her to stop, 201 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:53,160 Speaker 1: and so one time when she was visiting him, the 202 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 1: next time he told her that she had to stop. 203 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 1: I mean, in other words, the mother said she was 204 00:11:57,559 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 1: even too crazy for my son, even with all the perks, 205 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 1: you know, the nice letters, love you, blah blah blah, 206 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 1: and the money, and he couldn't deal with her, you know. 207 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:12,640 Speaker 1: He It's so ironic with Brian Coburger because throughout his 208 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:16,600 Speaker 1: life he has been rejected time and time again, starting 209 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 1: in middle school. This got worse in high school. It's 210 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 1: so ironic because now that he's in jail, now he 211 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 1: has all these women throwing themselves at him. His reward, 212 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:29,120 Speaker 1: so to speak, is getting all these women who he 213 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:32,079 Speaker 1: never got before to write him love letters and want 214 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 1: to marry him. 215 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 5: And all of that. 216 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 3: Is there any part on the women's part of being 217 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:41,480 Speaker 3: wrapped up in sort of the notoriety. 218 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:43,440 Speaker 5: That's a part of it too. 219 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 1: Yes, sometimes women want to marry the man because if 220 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:52,679 Speaker 1: they did, you know, had a jail house wedding, there 221 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 1: would be tons of media and they. 222 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 5: Would get to be as famous as the man. 223 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 3: Are you familiar with the online group of the bride 224 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 3: Ryese or Brian's Girls. It seems to me it's like 225 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:08,560 Speaker 3: a group mentality, all of these women professing their love 226 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:14,680 Speaker 3: and putting together pictures of the accused in alter scenarios 227 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:18,960 Speaker 3: or with hearts all around him. And I was curious 228 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 3: from sort of a psychological perspective of are these women 229 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 3: do you imagine they're egging each other on? Do you 230 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:28,320 Speaker 3: imagine that it's competition between them? 231 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:32,439 Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting, you know, because that's that's a little 232 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 1: different than what I was describing with Richard Ramirez. Now 233 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:39,840 Speaker 1: in the group Brian's Girls, it's kind of interesting that they, 234 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:44,080 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess they're finding companionship or support in 235 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 1: the fact that that other women are so entranced by 236 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 1: him too. And I'll bet you though that each one 237 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 1: of them, I'm sure they've been writing to him, not 238 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 1: just you know, not just in this group. Each one 239 00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 1: of them must think that Brian really loves them, that 240 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:04,960 Speaker 1: they she's his girl. These girls, may you be writing 241 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 1: all these things online and we can talk about him. Yes, 242 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 1: isn't he adorable and blah blah blah, but each one 243 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 1: is probably thinking or at least hoping, that they're the 244 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 1: one he really loves. 245 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 3: There was one and this was reported on the news. 246 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 3: A woman in the group. I believe she's the leader, 247 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 3: the founder of the group. She physically carved Brian Kohlberger's 248 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 3: entire name and his initials into her skin. 249 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 5: That is definitely sick. 250 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 1: I mean, that is definitely goes beyond just loving you know, 251 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 1: a bad boy. I mean some of these women are 252 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 1: actually mentally ill. Some of them take it beyond the 253 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 1: edge and they do have some kind of mental illness. 254 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 1: They could be borderline, or they could be manic, depressive, bipolar, 255 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 1: but have some kind of diagnosible mental disorder. Because that, 256 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 1: I mean, that's supposed to show that she loves him 257 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 1: the most. Right, Look, I love him more than you girls. 258 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 1: Look what I did. You know, I'm the real one, 259 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 1: that his real love. 260 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:16,960 Speaker 5: And all that kind of stuff. He needs mental health help. 261 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:19,680 Speaker 1: She needs to be in therapy, just like I recommended 262 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 1: to Brittany Heislope that that girl definitely needs to be 263 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 1: in therapy. 264 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:24,840 Speaker 3: Is there anything else you'd like to share? 265 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:28,480 Speaker 1: I'll just say that if you are a woman who 266 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 1: is thinking about writing letters too, or becoming in love 267 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: with or wanting to marry one of these criminals. 268 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 5: Think twice. 269 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:38,080 Speaker 1: Realize that this is a reflection about yourself and your 270 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 1: insecurity and your relationship with your father, and get therapy 271 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:42,520 Speaker 1: instead of writing letters. 272 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 3: Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in 273 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 3: a moment. The women we've been speaking about are looking 274 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 3: in on the accused, hoping to be part of his world, 275 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 3: while simultaneously posting outwardly on social media so everyone will 276 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 3: know they are the ones in love with an alleged murderer. 277 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 3: From looking at this psychological perspective, we switch the lens 278 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 3: to a pop culture perspective and look at how those 279 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:22,720 Speaker 3: influences might possibly imprint on a murderer. How does the 280 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 3: presentation of violence and horror movies mirror back what's going 281 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 3: on in our own worlds. As for accused murderer Brian Coburger, 282 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 3: there's a much reported on example that starts very close 283 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 3: to home. 284 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 6: Brian Coberger's sister was an actress and she was in 285 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:49,239 Speaker 6: this movie called Two Days Back, and the loose timeline 286 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 6: story plot on that is that co eds go out 287 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 6: into the woods and not all of them return. In fact, 288 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 6: several of them meet their own untimely death in very 289 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 6: scary ways, including with a knife and a hatchet, and 290 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:09,360 Speaker 6: it's a slash reflick and just looking at the timeline. 291 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 6: That particular movie that his older sister was in was 292 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:16,640 Speaker 6: released on November eighteenth, twenty eleven, and the murders happened, 293 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 6: as we know, on November thirteenth, twenty twenty two. But 294 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:23,719 Speaker 6: what we're really trying to pinpoint here is something that 295 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:26,880 Speaker 6: we've been learning about, which is kind of about these 296 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:32,719 Speaker 6: social imprints that maybe set into somebody's mind that similarly 297 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:36,879 Speaker 6: how police investigators and detectives create a wall that has 298 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 6: the facts and how this piece of evidence was found 299 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 6: here and then this piece of evidence was found there. 300 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 6: Those are the facts, and then sometimes there's a psychological 301 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 6: profile that looks at certain imprints of a person's life 302 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 6: and to see if that tells a story. And obviously, 303 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaker 6: in no way are we saying that Brian Koberger is 304 00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:00,680 Speaker 6: guilty of the crimes that he claims his since four 305 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:03,160 Speaker 6: to this day and has not been found guilty yet. 306 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 6: But in the spirit of this unpacking what imprints maybe 307 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:12,360 Speaker 6: would have shaped a potential killer's mind. Is there any 308 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:16,680 Speaker 6: crossover there? So we brought in pop culture expert Dorano Fear. 309 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:19,200 Speaker 7: I'm a horror fan. 310 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:24,679 Speaker 2: I like to compare the historical relevance of horror and 311 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:28,159 Speaker 2: how it affects society's deepest fears. And it's always been 312 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 2: a reflection because what happens in our real world then 313 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 2: inspires horror, and it's been going on, you know, since 314 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 2: the twenties, the event of film. How So, during the 315 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:41,400 Speaker 2: time of post World War One, it was the rise 316 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:44,439 Speaker 2: of German expressionism. So that's when we got movies in 317 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:47,920 Speaker 2: the Silent era that were like Nosferatu or The Cabinet 318 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:51,879 Speaker 2: of Doctor Kilgarry, which explored themes of madness, extential dread, 319 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:55,880 Speaker 2: the unknown. Horror has always gone into the darker themes, 320 00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 2: and if you look at classic horror movies like Frankenstein, 321 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:01,199 Speaker 2: it was the people that turned on the monster, but 322 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:03,639 Speaker 2: the monster wasn't the epitome of evil and when you 323 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 2: really look a decade by decade, you know, the fifties 324 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:10,640 Speaker 2: brought about like a Cold War paranoia, and pop culture 325 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:12,360 Speaker 2: reflected that instantly. 326 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 7: It caught up to it, like in real time. 327 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:18,160 Speaker 2: And then the biggest movies of that decade were things 328 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:21,720 Speaker 2: like Invasion of the Body Snackers or The Day the 329 00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 2: Earth Shirt. Still and by the way, this is a 330 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 2: global thing. This is not an American thing, because you know, 331 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 2: Japan released Godzilla and that was you know, until this day. 332 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:37,240 Speaker 2: These are icons of pop culture heroism and fear. Now 333 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 2: you get into a whole other era when you get 334 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:40,680 Speaker 2: into the sixties and we start dealing with like the 335 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 2: Civil Rights movement is social and heaval. And look, that's 336 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:47,159 Speaker 2: where I started getting involved because when I first saw 337 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 2: Knight of a Living Dead, I was really stunned by 338 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:53,719 Speaker 2: that movie because first of all, it was George Romero 339 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:56,919 Speaker 2: invented the concept of the zombie in film, it was 340 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 2: a terrifying portrayal of this other and this idea that 341 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:03,159 Speaker 2: people come back to life and they are here to 342 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:05,679 Speaker 2: kill you and eat you. But it was really an 343 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 2: allegory because that's a movie about racism. So it's a 344 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:11,399 Speaker 2: reflection in horror and that was the first movie to 345 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:14,920 Speaker 2: really show very graphic violence, you know, and it reflected 346 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 2: social instability and the questioning of authority and norms. And 347 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:21,760 Speaker 2: it was in nineteen sixty that we got the first 348 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 2: real Hollywood serial killer with Anthony Perkins in his portrayal 349 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:31,679 Speaker 2: of Psycho, which was kind of the first time that 350 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:35,880 Speaker 2: American audiences had to face the idea of mental illness 351 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:40,679 Speaker 2: and the idea of psychopathy, which really has stayed with 352 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 2: us since we got into religious temitar like The Exorcist 353 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 2: and The Omen, which, by the way, The Omen is 354 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 2: my favorite horror movie of all time. But that was 355 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 2: also the birth of the real slasher movies. Although Psycho 356 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 2: is considered a slasher movie, but you never really saw 357 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:58,440 Speaker 2: you never saw the violence it was perceived, and that's 358 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:02,480 Speaker 2: what made it so terrifying. Roman Polanski used Rosemary's Baby 359 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:06,919 Speaker 2: as a sort of a view a capitalist theory, because 360 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 2: the truth is is that Rosemary's Baby, although dealing with 361 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:13,119 Speaker 2: satanism and the fear of women and birth and the 362 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:17,239 Speaker 2: non control of their own body, it also exhibited the 363 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:21,920 Speaker 2: betrayal of the people that she loved most for economic gain, 364 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 2: because her husband sells her out in that again, this 365 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:26,359 Speaker 2: is going to be all spoiler. 366 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 6: Alerts for fame by the way he sells her out 367 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:32,399 Speaker 6: so he can be famous. That's such an interesting theme 368 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:34,639 Speaker 6: that we're kind of seeing there a little bit for 369 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:35,520 Speaker 6: the first time. 370 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:38,959 Speaker 2: Well, it deals with the idea of capitalism, you know, 371 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 2: and simultaneously because socially, women are now becoming standing on 372 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 2: their own and their world of feminism and abortion is 373 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 2: the topic, and the freedom of sexuality after the sixties 374 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 2: and the free love movement. The religious kind of connotation 375 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:59,639 Speaker 2: is that morals were gone. So you then experience the 376 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 2: birth of the slasher movie, the real slasher movies, and 377 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:07,160 Speaker 2: it starts with Texas jamesaw Massacre and Toby Hooper terrified 378 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:09,480 Speaker 2: the world with that. Now that was also loosely based 379 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 2: on a real story. So that was loosely based on 380 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 2: the serial killer Ed Geen, you know, who's murdered people 381 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 2: and he wore their skins, which that theme gets repeated 382 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:22,840 Speaker 2: over and over again, including Silence of the Lambs. So 383 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 2: you're seeing a pattern here of how audiences want to 384 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:29,600 Speaker 2: escape their internal fears or see their internal fears projected 385 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:32,359 Speaker 2: on a big screen where they can process it, which 386 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,719 Speaker 2: is very similar of why true crime and the realism 387 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 2: of fear now works because people can't process it in 388 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 2: their brain or imagine the horror of it until they 389 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:45,360 Speaker 2: see it. And then once they see it, it becomes 390 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 2: less afraid because they can process how to deal with 391 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:53,240 Speaker 2: it if it ever comes knocking. At this point in time, 392 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 2: movies still had the Motion Picture Ratings Association had a 393 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 2: lot of control, so they were rated movies to stop 394 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:04,879 Speaker 2: kids from watching it. But that really lost power with 395 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:08,359 Speaker 2: nineteen seventy eight and the birth of Michael Myers and Halloween, 396 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:10,919 Speaker 2: and when you deal with that, now you're dealing with 397 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 2: the concept of true evil in a child form that 398 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:19,040 Speaker 2: becomes an adult and his whole reason for killing goes 399 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:22,719 Speaker 2: back to this moral compass. Why was he killing co eds? 400 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:24,679 Speaker 2: Why was he killing high school kids? Why was he 401 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:28,120 Speaker 2: killing women in particular? And going after the main character? 402 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:32,720 Speaker 2: And the immediate follow to that was Friday the Thirteenth. Now, 403 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:35,639 Speaker 2: the original Friday the Thirteenth isn't Jason Vorhees, but it 404 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 2: is the concept of kids at a summer camp losing 405 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:43,960 Speaker 2: their morals, not paying attention to the children, going off 406 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 2: into the woods and having sex and running around in 407 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:51,399 Speaker 2: crop tops. And the girls are very probiscuous and they 408 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:55,119 Speaker 2: are killed for it. And it's a reflection of the 409 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:57,440 Speaker 2: fears of that time because this was the first time 410 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 2: women really controlled their own sexuality, and it was a 411 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:04,960 Speaker 2: weird signal that maybe you shouldn't maybe you should be 412 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:08,520 Speaker 2: afraid of this because it's immorl And now the creepy 413 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 2: boogeyman in the woods that used to scare you under 414 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 2: your bed as a child is judging you. And that 415 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 2: was a really big leap. And when you started to 416 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:20,919 Speaker 2: see these movies, they also glamorized it because Jason became 417 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 2: a hero to a lot of people. The Halloween costume 418 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:27,359 Speaker 2: of Jason became the number one Halloween costume, followed by 419 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:32,800 Speaker 2: Michael Myers, and societally, we now enter the eighties and 420 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 2: the eighties become something completely different because we get inundated 421 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:41,119 Speaker 2: in the rise of consumer culture. The AIDS epidemic is everywhere, 422 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:44,919 Speaker 2: so fear of disease and pandemic. So it was really 423 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 2: the next level of the explosion of the slasher films 424 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 2: because Friday the Thirteenth came out literally in nineteen eighty 425 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 2: and then you followed things like Nightmare and elm Street, 426 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 2: which dealt with the psychological fears of damage, and that 427 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 2: was in nineteen eighty four, and in a way weird way, 428 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:02,679 Speaker 2: it was also the birth way they started to blend 429 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:06,359 Speaker 2: horror and comedy to try and alleviate some of this 430 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 2: fear and tension, which is why Freddy Krueger in Nightmare 431 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:14,359 Speaker 2: and Elm Street tended to be campy or funny, but 432 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,479 Speaker 2: the truth was he was terrifying as a movie monster. 433 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:22,439 Speaker 6: So any movie that Jamie Lee Curtis, for example, was 434 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:26,240 Speaker 6: in really did sort of speak to the idea of 435 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:30,879 Speaker 6: the popular kids, the ones that were enjoying life the 436 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,719 Speaker 6: most and living their best life, like those were the 437 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 6: ones to go first. Is that accurate? 438 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 2: Well, they always said yes, that it was about the 439 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 2: popular or the outsider's view in so that really I 440 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 2: think the first movie that pops in my head when 441 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 2: it comes to that is Carrie. Carrie was this innocent 442 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 2: girl of a religious family that happened to have this 443 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 2: telekinesist power, and it was the cheerleaders and the popular ones. 444 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 2: And one of the most insane scenes in that movie 445 00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 2: was the bullying of Carrie in the locker room by 446 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:03,520 Speaker 2: the other girl, where she gets her period for the 447 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 2: first time, and they pummel her withay the tampons and 448 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 2: the humiliation of that, and so for her, Carrie is 449 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:14,359 Speaker 2: a movie of revenge. It's taking pain, the hurt and 450 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,840 Speaker 2: the rage and taking out on those that bullied her. 451 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:20,959 Speaker 2: Or you could also flip the script and say who 452 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,200 Speaker 2: she might have envied to be more like. So you're 453 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:26,080 Speaker 2: right about that. It was always the pretty, the beautiful, 454 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:29,680 Speaker 2: And yes, you're also talking about the other a campy 455 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,280 Speaker 2: comedy horror movie which which if you talk to modern 456 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 2: day director as the reference was sleep Away Camp. And 457 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,520 Speaker 2: what's insane about sleep Away Camp in the eighties was 458 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:43,560 Speaker 2: that sleep Away Camp was the murders of those kinds 459 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 2: of people, the popular, the sexy, the coach, the cheerleader, 460 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:51,879 Speaker 2: all of that. But the killer in that was a 461 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 2: transgender and that is also sort of was referenced by 462 00:26:56,160 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 2: ed Geen, the serial killer from Texas Chainsaw Massacre. What 463 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:04,680 Speaker 2: became the pop culture teen sensation globally was the birth 464 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 2: of the Scream franchise. Scream was a sort of horror 465 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 2: comedy that was based on the tropes of all these 466 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,639 Speaker 2: other movies of who dies first, Which answers your question 467 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 2: you know, it was always like the virgin survives at 468 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 2: the end, and they kind of twisted that on its ear. 469 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:23,760 Speaker 2: And what's pretty interesting about the Idaho massacre is that 470 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,960 Speaker 2: it has certain similarities to the serial killer Danny Rollins 471 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:33,120 Speaker 2: of the nineteen ninety University of Florida killings in Gainesville. 472 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:35,720 Speaker 2: You know, he killed five co eds and he did 473 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:39,960 Speaker 2: it in a kind of a pornographic view of violence 474 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 2: and torture, and the world stopped and were terrified by 475 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,480 Speaker 2: the concept that somebody could go and do this. There 476 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 2: are similarities to that because we haven't had really a 477 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:56,480 Speaker 2: college co ed murder spree that was coming from a 478 00:27:56,520 --> 00:28:00,960 Speaker 2: place of psychopathy. And that is probably what I think 479 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 2: makes the Idaho massacre most like film Scream two takes 480 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:08,800 Speaker 2: place on a college campus. It's not directly about sorority murders, 481 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:11,439 Speaker 2: but it features a sorority setting, and you know, the 482 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:13,640 Speaker 2: subplot involves murder of sorority sisters. 483 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:16,720 Speaker 6: So if we were looking at Brian Coberger, because some 484 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,879 Speaker 6: of it a little bit, again not accusing anybody of murder, 485 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:23,200 Speaker 6: but there is seemingly a couple of touch points. One 486 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:27,159 Speaker 6: if what we have been told regarding Brian Coberger in 487 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,439 Speaker 6: his backstory air quotes is that he was bullied and 488 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:33,359 Speaker 6: he was sort of the outsider, and that likely his 489 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 6: connection to the victims was one from a distance where 490 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 6: maybe he was observing them and watching them as someone 491 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:47,720 Speaker 6: who was looking in and maybe looking in often, which 492 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 6: has some creepy undertones to some of the movies that 493 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:54,320 Speaker 6: you've since brought up. And then just the idea of 494 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 6: a slasher flick in general, it's pretty uncommon from what 495 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:02,120 Speaker 6: we've been told that in a sale would use a knife, 496 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 6: for example, to murder, frankly, anyone, because a it's not exact, 497 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 6: it's extremely messy as you could imagine, and requires a 498 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:15,680 Speaker 6: level of energy and for a very ordinary guy that 499 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:18,120 Speaker 6: seems hard to picture. You only see that in the 500 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:21,720 Speaker 6: horror movies. Where does he fit in this timeline? 501 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 7: Horror? 502 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:27,520 Speaker 2: It mirrors society's deepest fears. Right, So, now, when you 503 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:31,400 Speaker 2: get into this story, if all of the things are true, 504 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 2: first of all, personally, as an opinion, I don't really 505 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 2: buy that any of it is excusable. And we now 506 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 2: live in a society where people try and justify the 507 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 2: actions of brutality and violence as warranted. In some way, 508 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 2: I think that That is where we get into a 509 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:57,000 Speaker 2: situation of societal collapse. To be honest, because there are 510 00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 2: fine lines. 511 00:29:58,120 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 7: There is right, there is wrong. 512 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,200 Speaker 2: Up until recently, I would say in the last fifteen years, 513 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 2: ten to fifteen years, we knew who the villains were. 514 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,320 Speaker 2: We knew who the monsters were. There is a throwback 515 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:12,920 Speaker 2: to what I brought up with Frankenstein. Where was Frankenstein 516 00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:16,280 Speaker 2: truly a monster? But we're talking about psychopathy. 517 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 3: Let's stop here for another break. We'll be back in 518 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:34,160 Speaker 3: a moment. Stephanie continues her conversation with pop culture expert 519 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 3: Doronto Fear. 520 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,320 Speaker 2: We live at a time of social media where nothing 521 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 2: is real, and every single scroll, every single post, every 522 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 2: single TikTok or snap is fully produced and curated by 523 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 2: the person posting it. We all laugh when we take 524 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 2: a selfie, we go, let me see it, and don't 525 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 2: post it without me looking at it, right, And that's 526 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:59,000 Speaker 2: a very common trait. But when you're curating a fake 527 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 2: world so that other people will see you in a 528 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 2: certain light, it brings about envy For somebody that can't 529 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:10,840 Speaker 2: differentiate between that, it becomes envy watching in you know, 530 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,320 Speaker 2: they'll say, oh, well, if you don't have haters, you 531 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:18,800 Speaker 2: don't have a life. Well, yes and no, because the 532 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:24,480 Speaker 2: haters can become very dangerous and they don't see themselves. 533 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 2: And the rise of the en cell or you know, 534 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 2: that concept and the unattainability for men and women. Now 535 00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 2: that is another question about gender here. Women have always 536 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 2: dealt with the concept of higher standards in media and 537 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 2: pop culture. You know, they've always looked to fashion magazines 538 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:49,240 Speaker 2: and flipped through it and tried to see themselves as 539 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:52,959 Speaker 2: the models, which led to a lot of self degradation. 540 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 2: It's really roughly since the mid nineties where well, I 541 00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,840 Speaker 2: would say now that that's twenty five years, but where 542 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 2: men have been highly sexualized, you know, with the birth 543 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:05,840 Speaker 2: of Abercrombie and Finch and all of those you know bags, 544 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:08,240 Speaker 2: where it was all sexualized men and you would walk 545 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 2: in the mall and they'd be a shirtless guy standing 546 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,880 Speaker 2: outside like inviting you in. That then created the insecurity 547 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 2: that women have felt for decades and decades and decades. Suddenly, 548 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:21,080 Speaker 2: for boys, they suddenly had to look at other males 549 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:24,000 Speaker 2: and realize where they fitted and the hierarchy of what 550 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 2: is deemed his beauty and the crowd that they run 551 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 2: in and who they're with. And an Instagram post where 552 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 2: there is four guys in a pool with six pretty 553 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,960 Speaker 2: girls behind them. It elicits of why them not me. 554 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:41,280 Speaker 6: It's such an interesting touch point because it makes me 555 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:44,240 Speaker 6: think of a couple of things. One, if what Brian 556 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 6: Coberger is being accused of is accurate, Yes, he was 557 00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 6: allegedly pinging his phone, had been in and around that 558 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:56,040 Speaker 6: home many many times leading up to the murders and thereafter, 559 00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:01,959 Speaker 6: so it implies that you know he is standing outside 560 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 6: looking in from a distance under a street light, allegedly 561 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:10,200 Speaker 6: as again we would see in something very scary. It's 562 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:13,720 Speaker 6: the person of envying something that they may be see 563 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,280 Speaker 6: And maybe is it possible that the connection that he 564 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:21,280 Speaker 6: had to Wan or more of the victims was legitimately 565 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:25,560 Speaker 6: just through this lens of social media, you can see 566 00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:29,320 Speaker 6: how that can happen. We develop relationships with people because 567 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:32,560 Speaker 6: we see them often and we do not know them. 568 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:35,480 Speaker 6: It feels real. And if you're someone who doesn't have 569 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:40,120 Speaker 6: an understanding of social cues or other areas to fill 570 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 6: that hole with real friends and family, that layer of 571 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:49,959 Speaker 6: isolation and lonesome behavior or loneliness is really dangerous. 572 00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:56,280 Speaker 2: I think that isolation, loneliness, mental illness all plays a factor. 573 00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,600 Speaker 2: But these concepts are not new. What I mean by 574 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 2: I don't buy it, I buy it. I believe it. 575 00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:06,360 Speaker 2: It's true. I don't think it's an excuse. I don't 576 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 2: think that when you begin to frame the conversation around 577 00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:13,160 Speaker 2: and I'll keep it in pop culture terms, sort of 578 00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:14,960 Speaker 2: the origin story. 579 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:15,960 Speaker 7: That it makes it okay. 580 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:17,160 Speaker 6: That's so fair. 581 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:19,759 Speaker 2: I think that if you were to cross reference one 582 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:22,960 Speaker 2: hundred people and talk to one hundred people regarding their history, 583 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:29,319 Speaker 2: trauma is a permanent and pervasive fact in almost every 584 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:32,840 Speaker 2: one of the hundred. Nobody lives an idyllic life. The 585 00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:36,200 Speaker 2: concept of how one deals with their childhood trauma or 586 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:39,839 Speaker 2: psychological trauma, or abuse, or even if it's just environmental, 587 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,920 Speaker 2: the way they handle it moving forward is a mark 588 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:50,640 Speaker 2: of maturity, of evolutionary adulthood. And by minimizing that and 589 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:53,719 Speaker 2: saying well, that's an excuse and that's okay, and it 590 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:57,160 Speaker 2: gives free rein for this. And we see this often 591 00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:00,480 Speaker 2: from a pop culture perspective, where again the heroes and 592 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:05,200 Speaker 2: the villains are now being blurred. Where you have, you know, 593 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:08,239 Speaker 2: in the DC comics and the superhero world. One of 594 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:13,319 Speaker 2: the most greatest psychological psychotic killers of all time is 595 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:16,200 Speaker 2: The Joker, and he's specifically a psychopath. 596 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:17,759 Speaker 7: He's written as a psychopath. 597 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,800 Speaker 6: Well, I thought that movie was actually pretty interesting, the 598 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:26,680 Speaker 6: Joker specifically, which is the Joaquin Phoenix portrayal of the Joker, 599 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:31,520 Speaker 6: and it really does kind of give exactly to your point, 600 00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:36,200 Speaker 6: an origin story for this villain. I have to be 601 00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 6: honest with you. When this massacre first happened and Brian 602 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:44,879 Speaker 6: Coberger was arrested, we were just all like, what And 603 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,600 Speaker 6: that's the movie that kind of comes to mind is 604 00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:53,240 Speaker 6: sort of is it the micro aggressions with mental illness 605 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,799 Speaker 6: and isolation? And you know, the Joker had been hit 606 00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,759 Speaker 6: one too many times or overlooked one too many times, 607 00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:02,840 Speaker 6: or left out of the conversation one too many times, 608 00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:06,040 Speaker 6: and had had enough and had a wicked relationship with 609 00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:09,640 Speaker 6: his mother or some sort of meaningful backstory that maybe 610 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:13,920 Speaker 6: not justified but explained his actions. 611 00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:16,799 Speaker 2: I do think that, you know, everybody wants to know 612 00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 2: the reason why why do people do what they do? 613 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:22,880 Speaker 2: Are is somebody born evil? Is somebody not? You know, 614 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:24,560 Speaker 2: I always have to look at everything through a pop 615 00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:27,760 Speaker 2: culture lens. It really comes into I've bene of social media. 616 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 2: With social media as being so prolific, it's like these things, look, 617 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:35,879 Speaker 2: they fascinate us. We can't get enough of it, and 618 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:40,560 Speaker 2: so we have this fascination. We have this as a society. 619 00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:44,600 Speaker 2: We have this sort of morbid attraction to these things, 620 00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:47,120 Speaker 2: which is why horror is sort of the number one 621 00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:50,719 Speaker 2: entertainment resource, cheap to make millions of view. They like 622 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:53,200 Speaker 2: the bad ones, they like the good ones, doesn't matter. 623 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:57,040 Speaker 2: That's your key into any kind of entertainment. And then 624 00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:00,640 Speaker 2: the proliferation of true crime over the last really ten 625 00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:05,640 Speaker 2: to eleven years has been extraordinary, and strangely, women tend 626 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:09,200 Speaker 2: to be the highest consumers of that because they deal 627 00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:12,240 Speaker 2: with trauma, they deal with genes. You know, it's funny. 628 00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:13,759 Speaker 2: I had a conversation with a man one day who 629 00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:16,960 Speaker 2: doesn't like understand this concept, and I said, when you 630 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:19,680 Speaker 2: get in an elevator, anytime you get in an elevator, 631 00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:23,000 Speaker 2: are you ever afraid? He said, well, why would I be? 632 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:25,919 Speaker 2: And I said, do you know that women, no matter 633 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:27,920 Speaker 2: who they are, wherever they are, when they get in 634 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:32,200 Speaker 2: an elevator and a man enters, it's not fear. It's 635 00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:38,760 Speaker 2: an immediate alert for potential fear, and men don't realize 636 00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:41,000 Speaker 2: that that is something that women go through every day 637 00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:43,480 Speaker 2: walking through a parking lot, if a light goes out 638 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:45,960 Speaker 2: in a garage, when they get in their car, they 639 00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:48,680 Speaker 2: check their back seat. And it's not because they're conditioned 640 00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:53,560 Speaker 2: by through crime shows. It's because it is a fact 641 00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:57,240 Speaker 2: for them from childhood. And I think that's why women 642 00:37:57,280 --> 00:37:59,640 Speaker 2: consume this, because they want to know, They want to 643 00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:01,000 Speaker 2: know what to look for, they want to know how 644 00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:01,760 Speaker 2: to protect themselves. 645 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,319 Speaker 6: One question, though, so does that mean just looking at 646 00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:08,400 Speaker 6: that so well I might ed so well said, is 647 00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:14,200 Speaker 6: are women scared in the elevator because they've seen Psycho 648 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:19,160 Speaker 6: too many times? Or because they've seen women being murdered 649 00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:23,000 Speaker 6: endlessly in horror films or in scary movies throughout the times? 650 00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:28,560 Speaker 6: And now true crime is having this surge because we've 651 00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,720 Speaker 6: all lost our minds? Or is it because we really 652 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:34,279 Speaker 6: think it's important to share stories so that we can 653 00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:37,439 Speaker 6: keep ourselves safe and look out for each other. And 654 00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:40,799 Speaker 6: I believe you can't protect yourself against the boogeyman if 655 00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:44,200 Speaker 6: you don't know the boogeyman exists, and that people don't 656 00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:45,080 Speaker 6: heal alone. 657 00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:50,200 Speaker 7: Well, it's a reflection. It's a reflection of the times. 658 00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:52,960 Speaker 2: I think that women feel like they're prey, and in 659 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,720 Speaker 2: a lot of ways they are. I think it's ingrained 660 00:38:55,719 --> 00:39:00,440 Speaker 2: in the DNA, and I think that it's correct. And 661 00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:03,600 Speaker 2: I think the fascination with true crime is a symptom 662 00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:07,279 Speaker 2: of this. I'm a fan of true crime, but I 663 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:09,480 Speaker 2: tend to like the ones that deal with it in 664 00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:12,520 Speaker 2: a subject matter that I can at least escape a 665 00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:15,800 Speaker 2: little bit into the humor, like Don't f with Cats. 666 00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:18,920 Speaker 2: I thought that the way that that was told was 667 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:22,880 Speaker 2: genius in a the most terrifying story of the most 668 00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:27,880 Speaker 2: psychotic killer. And by the way, another one who was 669 00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:33,280 Speaker 2: influenced by pop culture, because Luca thought he was Sharon 670 00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:36,279 Speaker 2: Stone in basic instinct, he basically embodied her character the 671 00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:39,480 Speaker 2: way he imagined her to be. You're tapping into the 672 00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:43,080 Speaker 2: concept of compassion and empathy for the vast majority, there 673 00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:45,640 Speaker 2: are going to be people who will zero in and 674 00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:50,399 Speaker 2: not hear the compassion and empathy and be aroused by 675 00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:53,279 Speaker 2: the concept. And that's the terrifying part. And that's where 676 00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:57,000 Speaker 2: mental illness comes in. Now, if he was the main 677 00:39:57,120 --> 00:39:59,759 Speaker 2: character from You, and he was stalking and he felt 678 00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:03,000 Speaker 2: like that outsider, there's five million ways to look at it. 679 00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:05,719 Speaker 2: Did these girls brush him off and reject him and 680 00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:07,400 Speaker 2: he felt rejected in want revenge? 681 00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:09,520 Speaker 7: Or were they actually nice? 682 00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:12,520 Speaker 2: Did they say hi to him and he suddenly said, oh, 683 00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:15,279 Speaker 2: they love me. So now you go into the two 684 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:18,840 Speaker 2: sides of psychology, which then becomes like, well, so you 685 00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:20,319 Speaker 2: can't be nice to a person. You can't look at 686 00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:22,600 Speaker 2: person in their eyes. You have to avert them. But 687 00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:25,960 Speaker 2: if you avert them, then are you attracting violence? So 688 00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:29,400 Speaker 2: there is no right answer. The right answer is to 689 00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:36,319 Speaker 2: identify the signs early, the responsibility of family, friends, teachers, 690 00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:44,839 Speaker 2: peers to raise the alarm. 691 00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:49,319 Speaker 3: More on that next time. For more information on the 692 00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:53,280 Speaker 3: case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at kat 693 00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:58,080 Speaker 3: Underscore Studios. The Idaho Masker is produced by Stephanie Leideger, 694 00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:02,920 Speaker 3: Gabriel Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound design 695 00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:07,280 Speaker 3: by Jeff Torois, Music by Jared Aston. The Idaho Mascer 696 00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:10,920 Speaker 3: is a production of Katie's Studios and iHeartRadio. For more 697 00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:14,880 Speaker 3: podcasts like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 698 00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:17,000 Speaker 3: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.