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Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric and this is Next Questions Question.

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Speaker 1: Hi everyone, this is a special episode of Next Question.

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Speaker 1: I'm coming to you from my hometown of Arlington, Virginia.

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Speaker 1: My guests are the founders of Axios, Jim Vanda High

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Speaker 1: and Mike Allen. The occasion is Jim's new book, Just

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Speaker 1: the Good Stuff, No Bs, Secrets to Success no matter

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Speaker 1: what life throws at you. It is filled with hard

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Speaker 1: earned advice about life in and out of the workplace.

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Speaker 1: Jim and micro journalists and people of enormous character. It's

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Speaker 1: part of what's driven their success. First in founding Politico

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Speaker 1: and then Axios, I often turned to Jim and Mike

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Speaker 1: to understand some of the big, thorny issues we're grappling

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Speaker 1: with these days. This conversation ran the gamut the future

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Speaker 1: of media, the twenty twenty four election, AI, and the

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Speaker 1: try else and tribulations of starting a company. I thought

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Speaker 1: it was so interesting and important, and I had such

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Speaker 1: a good time talking to these two. I hope you

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Speaker 1: enjoyed as well. So here's my conversation with Jim and Mike.

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Speaker 1: First of all, I'm here in Axios headquarters in Clarendon, Virginia,

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Speaker 1: in my hometown of Northern Virginia. So I'm happy to

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Speaker 1: be talking to Jim Vanda Hi and Mike Allen, two

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Speaker 1: people I admire greatly. We're talking about Jim's book, but

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Speaker 1: I thought we first start by talking about you two,

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Speaker 1: oh boy, and your bromance.

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Speaker 2: Are bromance?

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Speaker 1: How did it begin? Fellas? I mean, you guys have

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Speaker 1: known each other for a long time. Did he have

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Speaker 1: you at hello? Jim?

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Speaker 2: He had me at first speed. So we were on

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Speaker 2: the Lido deck, So you're a call. So back in

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Speaker 2: the back, in the or in the two thousands, there

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Speaker 2: was all those trade protests whenever we would travel with

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Speaker 2: the president, right and there was one in Genoa, Italy,

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Speaker 2: and they had to lock down the city and they

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Speaker 2: had no where to put reporters, and so they brought

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Speaker 2: in this creaky, clunky old cruise ship that they put

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Speaker 2: us in on. And it was about four o'clock in

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Speaker 2: the morning, and I had to write. I was working

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Speaker 2: for the journal, so I had to write for the

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Speaker 2: Asian Wall Street Journal europe Wall Street Journal. And Mike

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Speaker 2: was down there, had already filed and I walked by

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Speaker 2: him and he had a bunch of beers laid out,

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Speaker 2: and he looked at me and he said, for speed,

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Speaker 2: to see who could slam a beer faster like any

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Speaker 2: good Wisconsin boy. I said yes, and then lost, unfortunately.

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Speaker 1: And do you remember it that way too, Mike?

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Speaker 3: I remember winning absolutely.

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Speaker 1: How did this great partnership begin? I mean, you both

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Speaker 1: are superb journalists. I've seen your bylines for years and

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Speaker 1: always admired your work. How did you two get together

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Speaker 1: and say let's put on a show?

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Speaker 2: You know it? Like you We were journalists, right, We

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Speaker 2: didn't think we're going to become entrepreneurs. And we had

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Speaker 2: this idea to start political when I was at the

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Speaker 2: Washington Post. He had been at the Post, but one

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Speaker 2: to Time magazine. Once we had this idea like, hey,

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Speaker 2: we could take on the Post if we had the

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Speaker 2: best and brightest reporters like Mike's at the top of

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Speaker 2: that list, and so he was very much part of

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Speaker 2: those conversations. The more we thought about starting Politico back

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Speaker 2: in six o seven, the more magical it felt, and

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Speaker 2: it kind of took on a life of its own.

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Speaker 2: And Mike was the first hire, and it was kind

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Speaker 2: of off to the races from there, and we weren't

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Speaker 2: we were friendly. I don't know that we were like

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Speaker 2: obviously we're like talk a thousand times a day now,

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Speaker 2: but back then, like it was sort of a building

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Speaker 2: a friendship. And then once you go through starting a company.

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Speaker 2: Particularly what people don't remember back when we started political

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Speaker 2: everyone wanted us to fail. Part of it was that

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Speaker 2: there's probably too much too wanted us to yes and like,

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Speaker 2: and so you really bonded over like everyone's rooting for

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Speaker 2: your failure. You're trying to take on the post. I

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Speaker 2: was probably popping off too much publicly, making other people

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Speaker 2: even root louder for our demise, and you just you

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Speaker 2: bond in a way that it's hard to explain to

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Speaker 2: someone who hasn't started up a company, because it's almost like,

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Speaker 2: you know, it's like you're in this fox hole together

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Speaker 2: and like you just you see things about people's character

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Speaker 2: that you went otherwise see and you really get to

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Speaker 2: know who's the real deal.

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Speaker 1: Did you realize at the time that the media landscape

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Speaker 1: was ripe for disruption? I mean this, you actually were

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Speaker 1: very prescient because it was before iPhones became ubiquitous and

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Speaker 1: people were they were replacing people's TV screens and in

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Speaker 1: many ways newspapers and people were getting information digitally. Magazines

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Speaker 1: were folding, YadA, YadA, YadA. I mean did you think

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Speaker 1: about that as you started Politico.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's something that has totally changed. So now

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Speaker 3: everybody realizes the world is changing. Then this has changed, right, right,

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Speaker 3: And this was two thousand and six, two thousand and

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Speaker 3: seven that the world was changing, and the big media

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Speaker 3: companies had no idea. They were being warned and told,

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Speaker 3: and you were inside them, like you're almost famous, grated

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Speaker 3: people ever to be on TV. You were at the

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Speaker 3: big three networks, the very definition of legacy media. Jim,

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Speaker 3: I've been at the Wall Street Journal, than Washington Post.

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Speaker 3: I've been at the Washington Post and then Time Magazine,

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Speaker 3: so the most traditional of paths. But we could see

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Speaker 3: that the world was about to change, how people consume,

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Speaker 3: how people deliver news. And here's the learning for your listeners.

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Speaker 3: And I love that you've become a fellow builder, a

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Speaker 3: fellow entrepreneur, a very successful one, by the way. Was

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Speaker 3: the tools were there, the Internet had been invented, and

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Speaker 3: yet at the networks where you worked at the Washington

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Speaker 3: Post and Time Magazine, everybody covered the news as if

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Speaker 3: it were coming on at seven am or six point

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Speaker 3: thirty pm or the paper was gonna be in your driveway.

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Speaker 3: And so there was a huge opening for Politico to

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Speaker 3: come in with more expertise, more speed, more voice, more passion.

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Speaker 3: There was an underserved audience and we barreled it.

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Speaker 1: You know, Gosh, there's so many things I want to

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Speaker 1: talk to you all about. But one thing that comes

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Speaker 1: up when you make those comments, Mike, is legacy media

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Speaker 1: took so long to wake up and smell the coffee

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Speaker 1: and to see that we were undergoing a major transformation

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Speaker 1: in media. And I'm curious. I have a lot of

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Speaker 1: theories about why. I'm curious what your theories are. Why

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Speaker 1: were they so slow?

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Speaker 2: I don't think it's just media. I think big institutions

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Speaker 2: become complacent. You delude yourself into thinking you need to

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Speaker 2: protect the place where you're currently getting the most money,

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Speaker 2: right you used to have.

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Speaker 1: They didn't want to cannibalize what they were doing.

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Speaker 2: Circuit City, Blockbuster, right, There's like a lot of stories

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Speaker 2: of companies that could have had made the Kodak, could

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Speaker 2: have made the Pivot, saw the pivot coming, didn't make it.

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Speaker 2: And it's just hard to take a big institution with

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Speaker 2: thousands of people.

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Speaker 1: It's like turning around a cruise ship, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: Jim, Yes, And it's like in people are just it

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Speaker 2: wasn't built that way. It was built for size and durability.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't built for agility. And that's the identity and predictability.

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Speaker 2: And so we had such an advantage jumping in and saying,

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Speaker 2: you know what, we're just going to listen to what

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Speaker 2: the consumer is saying. Now, we're going to adapt to it.

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Speaker 2: We'll keep changing as long as if the consumer is changing,

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Speaker 2: and we'll stop. We didn't have a legacies, we didn't

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Speaker 2: have to like stop doing bad things. We could just

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Speaker 2: do good things and do things that we know drive value.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's that transcends media. I think it's

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Speaker 2: all you always. I think it's hard for people to realize.

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Speaker 2: One of the reasons that people have so much anxiety

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Speaker 2: is that starting in seven, once you have the phone

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Speaker 2: and once the internet has connectivity to enough people, basically

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Speaker 2: the world started changing at a pace that our brains

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Speaker 2: can't keep up with, and I think that causes a

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Speaker 2: natural anxiety. It also changes business cycles and budgeting, meaning

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Speaker 2: like every business changes in a month what it might

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Speaker 2: have changed in years, and so it just requires this

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Speaker 2: a level of adaptability and agility that if you don't have,

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Speaker 2: you're ultimately going to get left behind. And that's why

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Speaker 2: you're probably having more fun with a startup company doing

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Speaker 2: what you want to do as you're watching it explode

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Speaker 2: as you would have at the heyday of like being

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Speaker 2: the most powerful anchor in the history of television. It's

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Speaker 2: just they're two different things, built for different eras.

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Speaker 1: Even in twenty eleven, you guys, when I did a

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Speaker 1: syndicated talk show, I felt like I was riding on

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Speaker 1: the back of a dinosaur. I mean, you could sense

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Speaker 1: that the world was changing, and yet you were clinging

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Speaker 1: to this old way of doing things. And for somebody

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Speaker 1: who wants to be an early adapter and wants to

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Speaker 1: be where the puck is going, it was very frustrating

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Speaker 1: for me.

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Speaker 3: Well, the key thing is what Jim said about knowing

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Speaker 3: what the consumer is going and what the consumer wants.

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Speaker 3: So the first two words of the Axios Manifesto are

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Speaker 3: mission statement, audience first. And when we started we were

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Speaker 3: reader first, and then we got video and podcast and events.

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Speaker 3: So now we're audience first. But a media company had

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Speaker 3: never been designed that way. Media companies had always been

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Speaker 3: designed for the ego of journalists like you and me

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Speaker 3: who want airtime, or who want calm feet thousands of

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Speaker 3: words on the page, or it was designed for the

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Speaker 3: needs of the business side, the publisher. Oh, we're going

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Speaker 3: to make you spend time on site even though you

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Speaker 3: have no time, right like, I'm going to clutter up

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Speaker 3: your page with a bunch of videos that you're not

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Speaker 3: going to watch.

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Speaker 1: Can you click bait? And we're going to piss you off,

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Speaker 1: so you read what we're talking about, right.

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Speaker 3: Right, like all serving either the journals to the publisher.

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Speaker 3: We flipped that the bottom line, Yeah right, we flipped

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Speaker 3: but no, this is key for axious actuals. Flip that

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Speaker 3: actuallys by the way, it means worthy and Greek always

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Speaker 3: worthy of your time. We never waste your time, We

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Speaker 3: never insult your intelligence. We took that and we flipped

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Speaker 3: it and we said, okay, if we were a consumer,

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Speaker 3: what would we want? What do we want as readers?

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Speaker 3: And that was the white bulb moment for smart brevity.

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Speaker 3: We realized that what you want is the big idea

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Speaker 3: said clearly on a very elegant, clear iPhone screen, well,

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Speaker 3: tell you what's new, why it matters, give you the

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Speaker 3: power to go deeper, and the audience loved it and

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Speaker 3: thanks to our co founder Ry Schwartz. It's also a

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Speaker 3: beautiful business.

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Speaker 1: Although it's not profitable.

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Speaker 2: Right, Well, it depends how I mean.

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Speaker 1: That's why I know that you have said that because

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Speaker 1: you're investing, so you are diversifying your portfolio and as

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Speaker 1: a result of that, you are putting money into exploring

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Speaker 1: other for sure avenues. So talk about that because I

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Speaker 1: think that's another thing that is really sometimes puts a

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Speaker 1: strain on a business, Like it's profitable when you're going

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Speaker 1: to give back to your investors and all that.

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Speaker 2: I mean, One, it depends on what your investment structure

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Speaker 2: is and kind of what you're trying to do. Right,

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Speaker 2: you could run a very nice boutique media company have

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Speaker 2: profitability and not do the things that come with scale.

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Speaker 2: Like for us, there's an ambition to it, right Like

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Speaker 2: we were animated by this idea that if you get

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Speaker 2: more good information in the hands of more people, they're

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Speaker 2: going to make better decisions in the country benefits, Like

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Speaker 2: it really is what animates.

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Speaker 1: Us, and I feel like it. Journalism is a public service.

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Speaker 2: Public service, professional service. I got to understand how people

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Speaker 2: can operate in this world when everything's changing so fast

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Speaker 2: if they're not better educated on what's real and what's

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Speaker 2: not real in AI and Information China, all of that,

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Speaker 2: and so that very much is what animates us. So

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Speaker 2: then when we think about that, one, you want to

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Speaker 2: invest in things that it's fine to be in deficit,

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Speaker 2: if you're investing in things that you're highly confident are

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Speaker 2: going to be very profitable over time and give you

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Speaker 2: different revenue streams. And then for us, a big part

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Speaker 2: of our investment is local, which is a real experiment,

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Speaker 2: maybe probably the hardest thing we've ever taken on, so

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Speaker 2: critically critical.

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Speaker 1: That people are engaged in local news, they're more likely

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Speaker 1: to vote, they're more likely be interested in national elections.

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Speaker 1: And I think twenty four or one hundred newspapers have

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Speaker 1: folded since two thousand and four. I mean it's a

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Speaker 1: crisis really in a democracy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean we tell our staff all the time,

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Speaker 2: if we can earn thirty cities, is if we can

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Speaker 2: get local right, where we could get to one hundred

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Speaker 2: or plus cities where it's profitable in every city, that

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Speaker 2: will be a bigger achievement than doing Axios and Politico combined,

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Speaker 2: because it's that hard. Nobody in the digital era has

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Speaker 2: shown any success rate in doing local at scale. You

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Speaker 2: have a couple of one off projects in a couple

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Speaker 2: of cities, and so like, that's a fun thing. But

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Speaker 2: we're not just doing it as a public service, even

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Speaker 2: though there's a public service dimension to it. We're doing

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Speaker 2: it because we actually think it'd be a really good

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Speaker 2: business that over time if we can get smart professionals

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Speaker 2: at local, high end niches and then national news to

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Speaker 2: be reading us. We know how to monetize that through events,

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Speaker 2: paid subscriptions, advertising, sort of the things you can do

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Speaker 2: to make money off of media. And so we feel

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Speaker 2: blessed like we're one of the companies that can continue

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Speaker 2: to invest in them at and as you know, like media,

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Speaker 2: it is hard. I get one of the hardest businesses

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Speaker 2: to do at any kind of size profitably. The flip

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Speaker 2: of that is we get to have more fun, you

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Speaker 2: get to get paid to be intellectually curious, and if

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Speaker 2: we nail it, we get to make people smarter so

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Speaker 2: they make better decisions and.

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Speaker 1: To make a ship ton of money.

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Speaker 2: Jim, well, if you see it right, if you're if

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Speaker 2: you're you're selling a.

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Speaker 1: Company, good for you, guys. But I mean it's worked

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Speaker 1: out very very well and for sure to delight.

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Speaker 3: The audience, which is a great twist that that in

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Speaker 3: all the years we've been.

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Speaker 1: I think your card should say Mike Gallon delighter of audiences.

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Speaker 3: I'm mean, as long as I'm delighting casey, uh, I'm good.

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Speaker 3: But we've had people since day one, people think us

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Speaker 3: for Axios and you know, uh, working in legacy media,

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Speaker 3: people rarely thank you for NBC.

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Speaker 1: Well, legacy media has I mean, it is such a

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Speaker 1: tough landscape now as we've seen this digital shift, and

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Speaker 1: I'm curious what you all think will happen to these

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Speaker 1: legacy media companies, say even five years from now, because

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Speaker 1: we've seen them now playing catch up, trying to really

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Speaker 1: basically put the analog product on a digital platform. But

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Speaker 1: that doesn't really work, does it. I mean, how do

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Speaker 1: you see things shaking out in the next five years?

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Speaker 1: Because I have young people saying to me, I want

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Speaker 1: to get into media, and I try to encourage them

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Speaker 1: because I feel like our jobs are critically important, and

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Speaker 1: yet I sometimes struggle in terms of giving them advice.

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Speaker 2: It's certainly getting harder to encourage someone to go into

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Speaker 2: media just because economics are hard. But what I tell

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Speaker 2: those people is like, listen, if you are smart, you're curious,

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Speaker 2: you want to help people get smarter on topics that matter.

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Speaker 2: There are jobs there, really are. It might be different.

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Speaker 2: You might not be working for a big TV company.

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Speaker 2: You might be working on TikTok or Instagram. You might

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Speaker 2: be working for a smaller, niche brand. You might be

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Speaker 2: working for an axios. Like we're not the size of

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Speaker 2: the New York Times, We're not the size of NBC,

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Speaker 2: and so I think there are opportunities. I think the

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Speaker 2: big institutions listen. I think there's some newspapers that are

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Speaker 2: household names that are going to be fine. The New

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Speaker 2: York Times has a wonderful business model.

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Speaker 1: Washing and Post is struggling.

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Speaker 2: Washing Post is struggling. But the journal I think is

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Speaker 2: doing okay and good. Bloomberg is fine, FT is good.

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Speaker 2: There's a decent number of papers that think will be fine.

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Speaker 2: TV is you know, it's a lot harder, Like the

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Speaker 2: consumer is just consuming content differently. The young people are

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Speaker 2: very they're basically habituated to getting it in smaller chunks

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Speaker 2: on social media, in a feed, in a voice that

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Speaker 2: matches their passions, their locations, their demographics. That's not going

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Speaker 2: to change. And so somehow these TV companies are going

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Speaker 2: to have to figure out how the hell do we

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Speaker 2: integrate into that, or is even an opportunity for us

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Speaker 2: to integrate into that. So I think big TV is

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Speaker 2: in probably a lot more trouble than big newspapers just

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Speaker 2: because that's a harder shift to make, and they're just

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Speaker 2: they operate at a cost scale that's really really high,

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Speaker 2: Whereas you could see AI being very helpful to your company,

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Speaker 2: into our company in terms of it just it cuts

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Speaker 2: down on the cost of distribution. There's a lot of

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Speaker 2: back not journalism stuff that gets done that you could

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Speaker 2: see AI being very helpful in That might allow companies

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Speaker 2: like yours, companies like ours to be able to put

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Speaker 2: more effort and more money and more mind share into

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Speaker 2: the journalism itself. And so there's going to be a

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Speaker 2: real benefit to not being big and lumbering. I think

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Speaker 2: over the next.

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Speaker 1: Couple of years, right being nimble, I think is going

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Speaker 1: to be the key before we talk about AI, because

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Speaker 1: I'm fascinated with that. I want to talk about mass

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Speaker 1: media because I've said for years now in graduation speeches

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Speaker 1: and whenever I can, just because I think it makes

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Speaker 1: me sound smart, that mass media is now an oxymoron. Right,

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Speaker 1: there is no such thing as mass I'm curious about

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Speaker 1: your approach with Axios and initially Politico. I mean, you

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Speaker 1: had a very I won't say narrow target market, but

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Speaker 1: you were not trying to serve the world. Talk to

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Speaker 1: me about that, because sometimes I'm still I'm a generalist, right,

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Speaker 1: I care about all kinds of news and information. I'm

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Speaker 1: interested in so many things, And for our readers and

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Speaker 1: people who follow me on social media, who I hope

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Speaker 1: to serve and educate and enlighten, I kind of am

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Speaker 1: all over the place. Is that a bad business model

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Speaker 1: in this day and age? You guys, I'm actually using

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Speaker 1: this to get business advice from you, guys.

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Speaker 2: I don't again like, based on what you've told me,

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Speaker 2: it sounds like it's a good business model. But it's

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Speaker 2: about you knowing your reader. It sounds like you do

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Speaker 2: you know your reader, you know your listener, you know

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Speaker 2: your watcher. You're constantly in conversation with them, and as

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Speaker 2: long as you're serving them, and then you're able to

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Speaker 2: make more money than you're spending. Like it's by definition

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Speaker 2: a really good business. What is true is when we

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Speaker 2: looked at it differently, right, we were Our specialty, if

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Speaker 2: you really boil it down, is understanding how the most influential,

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Speaker 2: hard to reach people consume information. People in the White House,

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Speaker 2: running companies, running tech companies, running media companies. And so

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Speaker 2: when we start we were never went mass. We went

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Speaker 2: the opposite. We called it radiate out. Go for the bullseye,

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Speaker 2: get the Speaker of the House, get the president, get

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Speaker 2: Jamie Diamond, get those.

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Speaker 1: People reading sure Nancy your target.

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Speaker 2: Market, and then little by little you would echo out

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Speaker 2: because people would want to know what they're thinking, what

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Speaker 2: they're doing. And by the way, if a reporter can

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Speaker 2: what they're reading, and if the reporter can tell them

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Speaker 2: something they don't know, that means they're a really really

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Speaker 2: good reporter. And so that has worked. Now I would

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Speaker 2: say we are more of a mask company and that

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Speaker 2: there's a much bigger audience. But where you're super right

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Speaker 2: on the there's no more mass media. You know. We

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Speaker 2: did a column not long ago called Shards of Glass.

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Speaker 2: The idea there was like think about you and your

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Speaker 2: heyday and us in our heyday. So pre digital, we

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Speaker 2: all looked at the world through the same window, right,

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Speaker 2: it was what was happening with the big networks, what

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Speaker 2: was happening with a few newspapers, relatively shared reality on

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Speaker 2: who we're dealing with and who we're listening to. Digital

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Speaker 2: shatters that into you could argue thirty forty fifty pieces.

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Speaker 1: Where millions actually And it's.

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Speaker 2: Crazy because you could be sitting next to you, could

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Speaker 2: be sitting at a table, and every person could be

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Speaker 2: consuming information in a different shard of glass, listening to people,

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Speaker 2: following people getting worked up about topics that you wouldn't

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Speaker 2: even know who that person is. You wouldn't even know

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Speaker 2: what that type of what you're worried about that topic.

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Speaker 2: You're getting your information how, and that's that's really hard.

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Speaker 2: So then it makes it really hard to have a

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Speaker 2: common truth. It's really easy for manipulated, fake, or just

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Speaker 2: kind of spun content to take off. And then I

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Speaker 2: find it, and I'm sure you find it. So you

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Speaker 2: do with your newsletter, A lot of it, you said,

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Speaker 2: you see the world. Part of it is news, part

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Speaker 2: of its aggregation, Right, I don't know about you. But

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Speaker 2: like many days, I wake up and I'm like, wait,

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Speaker 2: is that real? Is that not real? And the number

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Speaker 2: of time we're having is this real? That you really

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Speaker 2: say that like that? And we're paid to be able

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Speaker 2: to filter that geez. A poor reader on the other

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Speaker 2: side trying to figure out like someone's hyperventilating on Fox

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Speaker 2: News or on Twitter or on.

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Speaker 1: Item the same with me, And it's actually very time

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Speaker 1: consuming because now I have to take additional steps to

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Speaker 1: verify what I'm reading. I have to look it up,

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Speaker 1: I have to Google it, I have to compare it

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Speaker 1: to other publications. It's it's it's really hard to be

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Speaker 1: a news consumer today.

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Speaker 3: All true, But the flip of that is that being

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Speaker 3: Katie Kirkt Media or being Axios, being a brand that

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Speaker 3: people know and trust then becomes even more valuable because

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Speaker 3: if I know that I'm on Axios, I know that

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Speaker 3: this is going to be both literally accurate and broadly true.

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Speaker 3: We talk about our journalism. Trustworthy is the number one word,

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Speaker 3: absolutely the most important thing, and it gets more important

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Speaker 3: as the web gets more polluted that there's more fake content,

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Speaker 3: more synthetic content, more misinfo, more disinfo. Then you want

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Speaker 3: to go to people you know and trust.

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Speaker 1: Yes, but it's really hard because to Jim's point, people

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Speaker 1: are creating their own ecosystems and echo chambers.

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Speaker 3: And with very little overlap is a huge.

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Speaker 1: Change and creating for and disinformation, misinformation, malinformation. They're creating

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Speaker 1: their own bubbles, and you know, it is really hard

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Speaker 1: to have a conversation. And it's I'm curious how you

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Speaker 1: all have straddled this desire to be old school and

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Speaker 1: objective and search for truth when you have a political

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Speaker 1: movement in this country that seems to not necessarily appreciate

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Speaker 1: the truth right and people seeing things through uniquely different prisms.

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Speaker 1: How do you do that and still remain trusted if

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Speaker 1: in fact you are sharing factual information. That is a

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Speaker 1: real challenge.

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Speaker 2: Epic challenge and almost, to be honest, almost an impossible challenge.

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Speaker 2: And mean, the way we do it is we try

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Speaker 2: to say, listen, like we're going to cover everything clinically,

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Speaker 2: meaning we don't have an opinion page. We're not here

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Speaker 2: to put our thumb on the scale. But we're also

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Speaker 2: not here to deceive people into thinking that everything is

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Speaker 2: equal on both sides. We do that by hiring people

434
00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:23,879
Speaker 2: who are authentically wired into these campaigns and can at

435
00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:28,080
Speaker 2: least help explain these people, explain their ideas.

436
00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:29,960
Speaker 1: So you're not judging, you're explaining.

437
00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:32,160
Speaker 2: Trying and clinically like a doctor would. Like a doctor,

438
00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:34,000
Speaker 2: you might have cancer, and the doctor might be telling

439
00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:36,280
Speaker 2: you his cancer, but not doing it emotionally. He's trying

440
00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:38,040
Speaker 2: to walk you through what are the things that we know?

441
00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:39,879
Speaker 2: What are the things that can be done? And I

442
00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:43,320
Speaker 2: think at our best we do that. It's hard because

443
00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:46,800
Speaker 2: anything that you say, anything that you write, a snippet

444
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,719
Speaker 2: of it gets taken out of context and thrown on

445
00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:52,840
Speaker 2: social media and suddenly you're bipack.

446
00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:55,080
Speaker 1: Or Honestly, that happened to me recently. I was doing

447
00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:58,720
Speaker 1: Bill Maher and I was trying to explain income inequality

448
00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:04,000
Speaker 1: and classrooms and feeding into anger grievance and you know,

449
00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:06,720
Speaker 1: and I said, as an aside to Bill, you know,

450
00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:11,520
Speaker 1: feeling jealous and envious is a horrible feeling. And I said,

451
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:15,360
Speaker 1: that's created a lot of anti elitism and anti intellectualism,

452
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:19,680
Speaker 1: you know, a doubt in science and academic deemia, et cetera.

453
00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:24,200
Speaker 1: PS not an original thought. Right Fox News and all

454
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:27,840
Speaker 1: these right wing radio stations twisted it, cherry picked it

455
00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:30,119
Speaker 1: and said, I said, all Trump voters are jealous and

456
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:31,680
Speaker 1: anti intellectual.

457
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:34,199
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, and there's nothing you can really do. You

458
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:37,920
Speaker 2: could try to correct the record, but by then like it.

459
00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:40,399
Speaker 1: You know, if somebody took the time to actually listen

460
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,959
Speaker 1: to the whole statement, they plucked two words. It's engagement

461
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:48,520
Speaker 1: through enragement, as my friend Kera Swisher describes it, clickbait,

462
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,960
Speaker 1: and suddenly I am demonized in the minds of all

463
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:55,439
Speaker 1: Trump voters. Having said that, You know, I do wonder

464
00:23:55,480 --> 00:24:00,159
Speaker 1: how people can support a candidate who has perpetuated this

465
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,919
Speaker 1: notion of a rigged election when how many sixty two

466
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 1: lawsuits or something that's been thrown out. So I have

467
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:12,240
Speaker 1: a hard time trying to navigate this, and I do

468
00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:15,200
Speaker 1: look to you all and notice how you cover things.

469
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,280
Speaker 1: But as a person, it's really hard.

470
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:20,720
Speaker 2: I think part of the journalists, it is really hard.

471
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:22,879
Speaker 2: Like I don't again, like no one has sympathy for

472
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:25,439
Speaker 2: folks in the press. It's really really hard. There's not

473
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,320
Speaker 2: this idea from like the media critics on Twitter who

474
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:30,320
Speaker 2: think there's just a simple solution just call a lie

475
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 2: a lie, like great, like you're an academic that you're

476
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:35,120
Speaker 2: not you can.

477
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:38,679
Speaker 1: Fix immigration with the stroke of a pen. It's not true.

478
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:41,720
Speaker 2: It's not true. But you can do is try to

479
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:43,720
Speaker 2: explain what's actually happening.

480
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:47,440
Speaker 1: Requires an act of Congress, you know, just to allocate

481
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:49,400
Speaker 1: more funds, right, I mean, or.

482
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:51,159
Speaker 2: Put the emphasis. Like. One thing we've tried to do,

483
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:52,600
Speaker 2: and I think The Times has done a nice job

484
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 2: of is is explaining in detail that Trump is always

485
00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:58,360
Speaker 2: going to be Trump. You're not going to change him.

486
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:01,440
Speaker 2: He's going to say outland things every day. The thing

487
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:04,080
Speaker 2: you should be paying attention to is what's happening around Trump,

488
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:06,879
Speaker 2: which is you have a lot more smart people who

489
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:10,280
Speaker 2: are very organized, who are helping him prepare if he

490
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:13,480
Speaker 2: does come into government, to be able to operate government

491
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:15,920
Speaker 2: a lot more effectively than it did last time. So

492
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 2: if you'd like him, that's good. If you don't like him,

493
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:20,240
Speaker 2: he's going to be able to stretch the boundaries in

494
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:21,760
Speaker 2: a much more elastic way.

495
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 1: When we come back. Trump and his allies have a plan.

496
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:31,919
Speaker 1: It's called Project twenty twenty five and pardon my French,

497
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:35,440
Speaker 1: but it is really fucking scary. We'll talk about that

498
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 1: right after this. If you want to get smarter, every

499
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,960
Speaker 1: morning with a breakdown of the news and fascinating takes

500
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,119
Speaker 1: on health and wellness and pop culture. Sign up for

501
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:51,280
Speaker 1: our daily newsletter, Wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric

502
00:25:51,359 --> 00:26:03,960
Speaker 1: dot com. Well, what about this Project twenty twenty five.

503
00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 2: It's a real thing.

504
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:09,120
Speaker 1: It's really scary. Will you explain to people listening what

505
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 1: that is.

506
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 3: So this is the most advanced effort to prepare for

507
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,280
Speaker 3: an administration that there's been in history. And it started

508
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:23,400
Speaker 3: even before Trump had clinched the Republican nomination. So for

509
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 3: years now, this project's been underway. So the project you mentioned,

510
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,439
Speaker 3: Project twenty twenty five part of the Heritage Foundation, like

511
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,879
Speaker 3: a very well funded project, and they are pre vetting

512
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 3: thousands of people that could come in to a Trump

513
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 3: administration who could go in as top appointee's top nominees.

514
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:51,359
Speaker 3: And so they're building this massive resume database on this side,

515
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:54,639
Speaker 3: and then on the other side, they and others are

516
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:58,919
Speaker 3: developing extremely detailed policy for what he did. Because this

517
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:02,920
Speaker 3: is what Jim said, the chaos of last time. They

518
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:05,360
Speaker 3: recognize that that last time.

519
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:07,680
Speaker 1: They need more discipline, right, and.

520
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:12,359
Speaker 3: They knew that they couldn't get a Republican's to agree.

521
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:15,200
Speaker 3: They couldn't get the administration to agree this time it's

522
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 3: going to be much more organized, and it's going to

523
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:23,159
Speaker 3: be moved fast. They recognize how fast they're going to

524
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:25,359
Speaker 3: have to move. And one of the biggest things that

525
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:28,480
Speaker 3: they've said, and the Axios has led on this, and

526
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:30,639
Speaker 3: The New York Times has done great reporting on this,

527
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,359
Speaker 3: is the effort to turn over the bureaucracy, to push

528
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:39,399
Speaker 3: out so many people who in the past administrations have

529
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 3: just accepted that's what's going to be there. They're going

530
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 3: to turn that over. They're going to move fast on

531
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 3: the border and at the Justice Department. The way it's

532
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,040
Speaker 3: been said to me is whatever you think is the

533
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:56,639
Speaker 3: most aggressive possible approach you can take on immigration, his

534
00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 3: appointee is going to be even more aggressive and purposeful.

535
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:06,200
Speaker 1: But is there cause for concern with this whole plan?

536
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 1: I mean, it's not just an ideology. Isn't it sort

537
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:14,159
Speaker 1: of fealty at all costs? And how are they looking

538
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 1: for people who will fill these important results?

539
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 2: Total fealty it's all. I mean, they're very clear it's

540
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:21,639
Speaker 2: a loyalty test. It is about like, what do you

541
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,119
Speaker 2: think about Donald Trump? And if you can't pass that,

542
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 2: you're not going to get into the government. And it's

543
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 2: a big deal because we're not talking a couple hundred people.

544
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:31,359
Speaker 2: We're talking it could be tens of thousands of people.

545
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:34,120
Speaker 2: And the way government operates is you have these obscure

546
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 2: agencies that are by design boring and should be boring,

547
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 2: and they're staffed by career civil servants, people who have

548
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 2: domain expertise.

549
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 1: And a rich knowledge base.

550
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 2: Rich knowledge base, So if you replace that with people

551
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,480
Speaker 2: who are just purely ideological, then you could start to

552
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 2: stretch the boundaries of what can you do. Through administrative action,

553
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 2: which doesn't require Congress, you can also stretch. And they're

554
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:56,720
Speaker 2: going to do it. They're going to try to figure out,

555
00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:01,480
Speaker 2: let's do things that might not be ultimately legal, but

556
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:04,120
Speaker 2: let's have the courts render a verdict while we do it.

557
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 2: So even the firing of forty thousand people, to like

558
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:10,760
Speaker 2: there's a real legal case like can it be done?

559
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 2: Can it not be done? They'll do it and then

560
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 2: they'll just go to the courts and hope that they

561
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 2: win it. And what it'll do is it'll just step

562
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 2: way back. The thing that I worry most about about

563
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,360
Speaker 2: the country is we basically are now on this twenty

564
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 2: year path where we've basically lost faith in every institution, media, government, church,

565
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 2: boy scouts, politicians, you name it. And so whenever you

566
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 2: have people in a public setting who are continuing to

567
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 2: be exceptionally derogatory about government, making everyone think that everyone's

568
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 2: on the take, making everyone think that everyone's incompetent, then

569
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 2: you don't get the really smart people who might want

570
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 2: to come to work to government to make government work,

571
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 2: and so you end up with not anarchy, but you

572
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 2: basically end up with a bunch of people who just

573
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 2: feel like they can't trust anything, and you end up

574
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 2: with nothing that unifies all of us. And we've gone

575
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 2: through periods like this in history, but they're dangerous periods

576
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 2: because at the end of the day, there are things

577
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:09,720
Speaker 2: where we have to be united to be able to

578
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 2: do it, and where you do need a functioning government.

579
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:13,960
Speaker 2: With Ai Man, it's going to be a big deal.

580
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 2: I wish I had smart people in government who are

581
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 2: working on that and thinking about that and making sure

582
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 2: that we win this AI war in China doesn't and

583
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 2: that we do it responsibly and it doesn't lead to

584
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 2: mass unemployment for a big sector of people who just

585
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 2: finally are rebounding from the manufacturing crisis that really hit

586
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 2: them hardest.

587
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 1: Right, Well, how do you report on this without saying,

588
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 1: holy shit, this is scary stuff? You know? In other words,

589
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 1: you guys say that you tell people what's happening clinically,

590
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 1: But do you feel any obligation as an American citizen

591
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 1: to say this is potentially really damaging for our country,

592
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 1: you know, because you don't have opinion. So I'm just curious,

593
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 1: like how you draw that line, because it's hard sometimes

594
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 1: for me not to sound the alarms.

595
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 3: Well, and you can say to people, pay attention to this,

596
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 3: and we're going to give you the very best information

597
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 3: about this. And like we spend a lifetime like building

598
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 3: connections to all the communities that are involved so that

599
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 3: we can connect them and bring it to you. And

600
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 3: people appreciate that because there's so much noise that people

601
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 3: tend to tune out everything. And so if we can

602
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 3: say to you, this is what matters, pay attention to this,

603
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,320
Speaker 3: watch this, then that becomes incredibly valuable.

604
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 1: Because you feel as if you come at it from

605
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 1: too much bias or even colored with too much editorial focus,

606
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 1: that people will dismiss it.

607
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 2: They will listen. I believe there's still a big group

608
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 2: of people out there who are persuadable to the truth.

609
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 2: They're not persuadable if you come at it with a

610
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 2: condescending tone. They're not persuadable if you come at it

611
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 2: hyperventilating an They're not waitable if you're not coming at

612
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 2: it looking at like the operations of everybody. Yes, Joe

613
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 2: Biden is not Donald Trump, but Joe Biden's not a saint,

614
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 2: and Donald Trump's not, in every single action, a sinner.

615
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:13,959
Speaker 2: And you have to be able to explain to people

616
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 2: with fact, just like what's happening. I just got back

617
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 2: from I did a bunch of speaking with you, broy

618
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 2: Do right, So I did a bunch of different groups,

619
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 2: but it was in like normal America, So like Wichita, Fargo.

620
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:29,239
Speaker 2: The audiences were overwhelmingly Trump supporters, you know, going in

621
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,719
Speaker 2: there like, here's this guy from the media man communists,

622
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 2: is about to lecture us. And what I find is

623
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 2: is like if you could just diffuse and say listen,

624
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 2: I'm not here to lecture you or tell you what's

625
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 2: right wrong. I know Donald Trump, I know Joe Biden.

626
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 2: I know a lot of people in Washington. We've covered

627
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 2: this stuff for twenty years. I'm here to explain to

628
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 2: you how they think and the actions that they're going

629
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 2: to take, and then you decide what you're going to

630
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 2: do with that. And you could see the blood just

631
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 2: start to come down and you could have like a conversation.

632
00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 2: And in the Q and A, it wasn't people throwing

633
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 2: shoes at me. It was people asking very thoughtful questions.

634
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 2: And you can't just assume because Trump is so damn

635
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 2: outrageous and often so dishonest, that everybody who's voting for

636
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:13,800
Speaker 2: him like likes likes his dishonesty. They don't. To them,

637
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:16,000
Speaker 2: They're like, I got two choices, and man, I don't

638
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 2: like that guy. I don't like that guy. I'm gonna

639
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 2: go with that one.

640
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 1: I'm curious covering the campaign, have journalists learned anything? I

641
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 1: still see them referring to pull after poll after poll,

642
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 1: despite the fact in twenty twenty the polls were wrong.

643
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 1: When are they going to stop doing that? And how

644
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 1: can we convince them? If you had a magic wand

645
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 1: how would you have journalists cover this election?

646
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 3: You're never going to convince them. Are they right to

647
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 3: do it? Right? Like? Like you can do a great

648
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 3: job at your media company, Like we can do a

649
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 3: great job at our media company telling people what to

650
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 3: pay attention to. And for your listeners, what do you

651
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 3: pay attention to? Like there's six states they're going to matter.

652
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:59,280
Speaker 3: Start in Arizona, Nevada up to Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Georgia,

653
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 3: Like those are the states that are going to determine

654
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:06,400
Speaker 3: the presidency. Any poll that looks at the whole country

655
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:10,360
Speaker 3: is of course just popularity and is not going to

656
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 3: determine the outcome. Like what's going to matter is like

657
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 3: Jim was talking about, people are persuadable, like the small

658
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:19,719
Speaker 3: segment of people in each of those states who are

659
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 3: going to matter. And I can tell you that Democrats

660
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 3: look at the polls at the moment, like they're very

661
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 3: concerned about those six states in a lot of them,

662
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 3: like Trump has been winning here and there, Biden will

663
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 3: win Michigan or Wisconsin does seem to be his best states.

664
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:40,839
Speaker 3: But they're very concerned about what's going to happen in

665
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:44,319
Speaker 3: those six states. And so that's what matters. Look at

666
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:48,040
Speaker 3: that look at where the candidates are spending money. You

667
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:51,719
Speaker 3: talk about like like what have we learned, Like one

668
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:54,880
Speaker 3: of the biggest things with Trump, like he's Trump, Like

669
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 3: you're not going to be able to anticipate it. He's

670
00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 3: going to say what's on his mind. But you can

671
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:03,399
Speaker 3: look at what he's going to do, who's surrounding himself with,

672
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 3: like what they've promised to do, Like what they've been

673
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:08,839
Speaker 3: doing in the four years while they've been out. Those

674
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 3: are all real things that put together can help listeners, viewers,

675
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,280
Speaker 3: readers like understand what's coming out.

676
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 1: Let's talk about AI. It's interesting because you said something

677
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 1: fairly positive about AI just a few minutes ago, Jim

678
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 1: and I, and yet at the same time, I know

679
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:29,759
Speaker 1: that you have pledged to your readers that everything you

680
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:33,359
Speaker 1: write is going to be written by an actual human being.

681
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:38,239
Speaker 1: Katieus touching mic right now, So you know, So tell

682
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:40,879
Speaker 1: me how you view AI and how it is going

683
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 1: to even further transform the media landscape.

684
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:46,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's hard to do that succinctly. So basically,

685
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:48,759
Speaker 2: you have a technology that's probably going to be as

686
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 2: profound as the invention of the Internet or us having

687
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:55,879
Speaker 2: phones at scale and connectivity, and so we know what's

688
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 2: going to be big. So what we do is we're

689
00:35:57,520 --> 00:35:59,400
Speaker 2: trying to figure out well, what does that mean for media?

690
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 2: What does that mean for information consumption? And our belief

691
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 2: is that it's going to be profound. It's just going

692
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:08,880
Speaker 2: to radically change the relationship between you, the reader or

693
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 2: the consumer and the content that you're getting. And we

694
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 2: want to make sure we're at least one step ahead

695
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:16,279
Speaker 2: of it. And where what we believe are the known

696
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 2: knowns that affect your company and affect our companies that

697
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 2: people are going to increasingly value expertise, Oh, that person

698
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:26,279
Speaker 2: knows something that no machine could ever know. They have

699
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:30,320
Speaker 2: sourcing that no machine could ever have. They have history

700
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 2: with a topic that it gives them analytical insight that

701
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 2: no machine's ever going to have. That's one. Two. You're

702
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:37,359
Speaker 2: going to want trust. There's going to be so much

703
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:40,480
Speaker 2: garbage out there. You're going to want a relationship between you,

704
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 2: the consumer and the media company that is built totally

705
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 2: on trust. Three is a place where we're doing a

706
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 2: lot of investment and there's by stuff we could do

707
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 2: together on that is in person connectivity. The more you

708
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:55,000
Speaker 2: live in an artificial world, in a virtual world, the

709
00:36:55,000 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 2: more you consciously and subconsciously crave human interaction around share passions,

710
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:03,760
Speaker 2: particularly professionally, and so we do a lot of events,

711
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 2: one hundred plus every year. But we're also doing membership

712
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:09,800
Speaker 2: programs where we bring people who might have a passion around,

713
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:13,960
Speaker 2: say the communications industry, to be able to get smarter

714
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:17,719
Speaker 2: on their topics, maybe gather together to share best practices.

715
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 2: And we think there's a really rich business there. So

716
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 2: I think if you can do those things, you'll be fine.

717
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:26,840
Speaker 2: Now there's a flip of that, which is there's probably

718
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:29,359
Speaker 2: technologies that it could be AI power that are going

719
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:35,400
Speaker 2: to make our lives easier, building technology, distributing content, copy editing,

720
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 2: creation of data visualization. You could see very clearly how

721
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 2: all of those are going to be done quite well

722
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:44,960
Speaker 2: by machines, and so you just want to anticipate that

723
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:48,440
Speaker 2: those things are going to happen and be clear eyed,

724
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 2: like all these people are like, you know, like not

725
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:52,920
Speaker 2: paying attention to AI. Like I don't get it. It's

726
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:55,360
Speaker 2: like someone told you, imagine going back in time and

727
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 2: someone told you two years ahead of time, Hey, the

728
00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 2: Internet's coming, and you knew that and it was certain

729
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 2: eyes coming yep, store right, Like you know what's coming.

730
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 2: These big companies are spending trillions of dollars they will,

731
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:09,920
Speaker 2: will it into existence? Will it be smarter than us?

732
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 2: Will we be working for it? I hope not. I

733
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:15,480
Speaker 2: could definitely give you dark scenarios in almost every use

734
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:18,280
Speaker 2: case of AI. I could also give you very positive

735
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:21,000
Speaker 2: use cases. And either way, I think it requires us

736
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:22,839
Speaker 2: to be clear eyed. And this is where I think

737
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:26,799
Speaker 2: journalism really really matters. We have to educate people on

738
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:30,319
Speaker 2: these technologies, on the companies that benefit, on what will

739
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 2: happen between nation state rivalries, what happens when warfare moves

740
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 2: to drones and moves to satellites and moves to space,

741
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:38,480
Speaker 2: and the oceans that we have on our shoulders no

742
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:40,400
Speaker 2: longer protect us the way they did in the past.

743
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:43,360
Speaker 2: We have an obligation to tell that story, and, like

744
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:45,560
Speaker 2: you said, kind of grab people by the collar, say

745
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:47,279
Speaker 2: this is really really really.

746
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:49,239
Speaker 1: Important and it's coming and you can't stop that.

747
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:50,920
Speaker 2: And you could go light and dark on it. Right.

748
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:54,840
Speaker 2: So take medical research. It seems highly likely in my

749
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:59,800
Speaker 2: mind that in our lifetime that a large language model

750
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:03,880
Speaker 2: trained with proprietary health data will cure cancer. I believe

751
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:07,240
Speaker 2: that that will happen or most cancers. I also believe

752
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 2: that that exact same technology used by some jackass sitting

753
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:14,800
Speaker 2: in a campus in Colorado might be able to create

754
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:18,920
Speaker 2: a pathogen as powerful as a coronavirus for a country

755
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:21,400
Speaker 2: that's not ready to be able to combat that. I

756
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:24,439
Speaker 2: don't mean to be dark, but talk to anybody who's

757
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:27,240
Speaker 2: building it, they would say those two outcomes are both

758
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:31,719
Speaker 2: very very plausible, if not likely. And the purpose of

759
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:34,800
Speaker 2: a documentary or the purpose of journalism is just to say,

760
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,040
Speaker 2: you got to pay attention to this because it's probably

761
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:41,480
Speaker 2: going to require personal responsibility. It's certainly going to require

762
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:44,839
Speaker 2: governmental responsibility and regulation. And you have a government, going

763
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:48,240
Speaker 2: back to the beginning of this podcast, that's not recruiting

764
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 2: the best in the brightest because everyone's dogging it. And

765
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 2: now you suddenly need smart people to engineer regulations from

766
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 2: a machine that might be smarter than us. I mean,

767
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:01,960
Speaker 2: I'm looking from lash gosh. But man, that sounds hard, right.

768
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:04,759
Speaker 1: It does sound hard.

769
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:08,200
Speaker 3: And Katie, here's another grabbing by the Lapels. Moment you

770
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:11,359
Speaker 3: talk to the heads of these companies, is Jim and

771
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:13,400
Speaker 3: I do we spend a lot of time with the

772
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 3: biggest companies. This is all coming faster than people think.

773
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:20,880
Speaker 3: That what people think is an eighteen month time horizon

774
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:24,840
Speaker 3: is really a six month time horizon. And what's in

775
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:28,760
Speaker 3: the garage, what's under the sheet, is even more powerful

776
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:31,960
Speaker 3: than people realize. There's a lot that's been developed that

777
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:33,320
Speaker 3: has not been deployed.

778
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:36,920
Speaker 1: It is urgent, to say the least. And I think

779
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 1: you're so right, are you worried that though you know,

780
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:41,840
Speaker 1: we talked about media and journalists. First of all, I

781
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:45,160
Speaker 1: have two things. Two concerns of AI for me, job

782
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:48,080
Speaker 1: loss and jobs are going to be lost, and b

783
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:53,320
Speaker 1: disinformation right and using it for nefarious purposes, deep fakes

784
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 1: and all that stuff. I mean, how concerned are you

785
00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:57,840
Speaker 1: about both of those things?

786
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:00,680
Speaker 2: I'd say the latter much more. I think that listen

787
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 2: to the introduction for your average consumer to AI is

788
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:07,600
Speaker 2: going to be a bunch of really high end manufactured bs, right,

789
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:10,920
Speaker 2: that's going to be a little bit by domestic actors,

790
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:13,759
Speaker 2: a lot by the Iranians, of Koreans, the Russians and

791
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:15,839
Speaker 2: the Chinese who want to manipulate our system and want

792
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:18,680
Speaker 2: to pump this sludge into your Facebook feed, Instagram feed

793
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 2: and into TikTok. And the stuff's really good. It can

794
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:24,320
Speaker 2: make Katie Kirk look and sound like Katie.

795
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:27,920
Speaker 1: Kirk and see closely looked intoxicated, you know, and that

796
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 1: was very rude of entry technology.

797
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:33,319
Speaker 2: And the stuff that you've not seen yet is blow

798
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:36,080
Speaker 2: your mind good and so like it's like it's going

799
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 2: to be used, and it's going to be used for

800
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:41,880
Speaker 2: nefarious purposes, and that's going to require like a population

801
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 2: that trusts the media to say that that's not true.

802
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:47,480
Speaker 2: Like that's one I don't I might be naive. I

803
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 2: don't worry as much about the job part of it.

804
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:52,880
Speaker 2: I worry about it certainly for certain groups of people.

805
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:55,279
Speaker 2: But I think the history of technology is is that

806
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:58,560
Speaker 2: it causes a tremendous amount of anxiety, It causes a

807
00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:00,840
Speaker 2: fair amount of disruption, but all timately does lead to

808
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:04,400
Speaker 2: higher productivity and more jobs. It's painful getting there, but

809
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:06,920
Speaker 2: I think that for at least for the let's say,

810
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:09,200
Speaker 2: the next five years. Like right now, I think the

811
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:11,319
Speaker 2: technology is actually jankier than I would have thought at

812
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:14,440
Speaker 2: this point, but it will get better. And when it

813
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:16,200
Speaker 2: gets better, I would just look at it as how

814
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:18,600
Speaker 2: do I use it to do my job more effective?

815
00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:18,879
Speaker 3: Right?

816
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:21,760
Speaker 2: At some point it could displace things. It's something that's mechanical,

817
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 2: something that's wrote, something that's researched.

818
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:25,719
Speaker 1: Talk about graphics. You know, if you can just get

819
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:27,840
Speaker 1: AI graphics, do you need a graphic designer?

820
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:31,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's definitely there's throughout that. I don't mean to

821
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:33,239
Speaker 2: be cold about it, but I think throughout history like

822
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:35,720
Speaker 2: there were jobs that were abundant and then they don't exist.

823
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:38,719
Speaker 2: And the question is, and this goes back to functioning government,

824
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 2: like if we were smarter in some ways, we have

825
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:43,279
Speaker 2: a baby problem. We don't have enough people to do

826
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:45,360
Speaker 2: the jobs that we need to have done. They're just

827
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:48,840
Speaker 2: mismatched geographically and skill wise. So if you could somehow

828
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:51,360
Speaker 2: figure out and get ahead of this to realize what

829
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 2: are the sectors most likely to be hit? They know this,

830
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 2: They know exactly which ones are going to be hit.

831
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:58,400
Speaker 2: How do you equip your vocational schools, your two year colleges,

832
00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 2: your four year colleges training program to be able to

833
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:04,200
Speaker 2: get If I'm a trucker, like, I'm sorry, at some point,

834
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:05,840
Speaker 2: you're not going to be trucking. There's going to be

835
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:08,880
Speaker 2: it's going to be the easiest thing. I canna keep

836
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:11,160
Speaker 2: on trucking. But it's the largest I think it's the

837
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:13,759
Speaker 2: largest job, at least for men in the United States, Yeah,

838
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 2: and spread everything.

839
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:17,480
Speaker 1: And what do you find that businesses, since you all

840
00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:19,840
Speaker 1: have done extensive reporting on this, do you find that

841
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:23,920
Speaker 1: business or and or government is taking the steps to

842
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:25,440
Speaker 1: prepare for this revolution?

843
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:29,640
Speaker 2: Oh? Hell no, hell no. Government No, they can't, like

844
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:30,480
Speaker 2: they're just it's not.

845
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:33,160
Speaker 1: Well, they can't even.

846
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:35,359
Speaker 2: We don't know exactly what we're dealing yet with AI.

847
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 2: So it's a little bit hard, but a little sympathetic,

848
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:40,239
Speaker 2: and it's a little hard to regulate the government. What

849
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:42,279
Speaker 2: they would tell if they were on true seerum, they'd

850
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:44,360
Speaker 2: say they don't really want to regulate it because they

851
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:46,000
Speaker 2: don't want the Chinese to raise ahead of us and

852
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:49,160
Speaker 2: the most important technology we have a year, we have

853
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:50,880
Speaker 2: a year head start, and so they're not going to

854
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:52,920
Speaker 2: say it publicly, But that is what it like. If

855
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:55,560
Speaker 2: I'm if I'm Sam Oltman and I'm Mark Zuckerberg and

856
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:57,440
Speaker 2: I'm trying to lobby for as much freedom to get

857
00:43:57,440 --> 00:43:59,520
Speaker 2: this stuff to be able to grow. You just warned

858
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:01,520
Speaker 2: that China going to eat our lunch. That's going to

859
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:04,800
Speaker 2: get lawmakers to back off. There's definitely truth some truth

860
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:07,759
Speaker 2: to that. So I don't think government has created a

861
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:10,279
Speaker 2: framework to think about this, and I think this and

862
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:12,600
Speaker 2: businesses are looking at it as a way to increase

863
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:15,640
Speaker 2: productivity and reduce costs. They're not necessarily looking at the

864
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 2: societal consequences of it. And I don't think anyone other

865
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:22,640
Speaker 2: than the big companies just realize, like how much bigger

866
00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:25,560
Speaker 2: the big companies are going to get your Microsoft's, your Amazon's,

867
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:30,760
Speaker 2: your Googles, your apples because it requires so much compute power,

868
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:34,400
Speaker 2: so many chips, so much energy to build these things

869
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:37,279
Speaker 2: that only these nation state companies that are literally the

870
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:40,040
Speaker 2: size of countries are going to have enough capital to

871
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 2: be able to do it. So all fixable and probably solvable,

872
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:47,719
Speaker 2: but it's complicated stuff and.

873
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 1: It makes you want to kind of put the sheets

874
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:55,680
Speaker 1: over the shit. I can't deal with this right well,

875
00:44:55,719 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 1: speaking of a boy from Ashkosh b Gosh, and we

876
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:00,799
Speaker 1: have to talk about your book. It's called Just the

877
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:04,560
Speaker 1: Good Stuff, And I have to say, I really appreciate

878
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:08,200
Speaker 1: this book. It's no bs secrets to success no matter

879
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:11,200
Speaker 1: what life throws at you. But I mean, this was

880
00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:13,879
Speaker 1: a long time coming for you personally. I love how

881
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:18,520
Speaker 1: you basically write what a dipshit you were and you

882
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:21,399
Speaker 1: were growing up. I think those are your words, how

883
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:25,520
Speaker 1: remarkably unremarkable you were. I mean, you struggled in school,

884
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 1: you had a shitty GPA, you didn't know what you

885
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 1: were going to do with your life, and yet somehow

886
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:35,680
Speaker 1: you got it together. Talk about that because I think

887
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:38,520
Speaker 1: that this is such an important and valuable lesson for

888
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:40,839
Speaker 1: all people. I mean, you found your passion and I

889
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:44,879
Speaker 1: as tried in graduation speechy as it sounds, you did

890
00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:48,359
Speaker 1: find something that you could really channel your energies into.

891
00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 1: So talk about that.

892
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:53,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it does sound tripe, but it is

893
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:56,040
Speaker 2: like I always tell a college graduates, just try your

894
00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 2: hardest until you can no longer. Try to find something

895
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:01,080
Speaker 2: you would do for free. You just enjoy doing that.

896
00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:02,400
Speaker 2: You are naturally gifted that.

897
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:04,120
Speaker 1: So it doesn't feel like work, That's what.

898
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:07,279
Speaker 2: It doesn't feel like work. And like I'm curious to

899
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:10,239
Speaker 2: begin with, I'm mischievous to begin with, I'm experimental to

900
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:13,520
Speaker 2: begin with. So like the once I found something that

901
00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:16,160
Speaker 2: I liked, it like it suddenly made me feel like

902
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:19,560
Speaker 2: I was like capable and I was smart. And the

903
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:22,200
Speaker 2: book the reason I opened with this, like look at Jim,

904
00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:25,200
Speaker 2: the dipshit who's smoking camels and drinking and my mom

905
00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:26,920
Speaker 2: hates the part where I say I'm stoned all the time,

906
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 2: But Mom's gonna have to deal with that. But like

907
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:32,080
Speaker 2: the reason I do that is I hope that the

908
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 2: book works for people who are already in power. But

909
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 2: I hope there's a lot of people out there who

910
00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:39,560
Speaker 2: are sitting in situations like I was. It didn't come

911
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:41,799
Speaker 2: from privilege, sitting in a small town, didn't go to

912
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:44,840
Speaker 2: some glorious campus. Who just realizes that, like, despite what

913
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:47,239
Speaker 2: you see around you, it's an amazing country that like

914
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:50,000
Speaker 2: if you find a passion and you can easily move

915
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:52,440
Speaker 2: and you go, like throw yourself into it, and you

916
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:54,759
Speaker 2: do the right thing, work hard, like try to be

917
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 2: the first person in the office, do anything you can

918
00:46:57,160 --> 00:47:01,040
Speaker 2: possibly do, Like do like don't cut owners, don't dog

919
00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:04,759
Speaker 2: other people. Rise on the power of your own achievement

920
00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:07,800
Speaker 2: and your own effort that really good things can happen.

921
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:10,799
Speaker 2: And we all know like thousands of stories like this

922
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:14,359
Speaker 2: from friends and family and people we've met over the years.

923
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:17,040
Speaker 2: And so I hope that part resonates. And then the

924
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:18,840
Speaker 2: reason we wrote the book or and I say we,

925
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:21,759
Speaker 2: because like so much this is me distilling Mike and

926
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:24,239
Speaker 2: Roy and other people that we know is that I

927
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:27,000
Speaker 2: am in the rare position where we've started two companies

928
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:29,600
Speaker 2: and I've had to learn to be a CEO in

929
00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:33,480
Speaker 2: the digital era and deal with sixty five percent of

930
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 2: my staff being under the age of forty or thirty five.

931
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:38,719
Speaker 2: So I've learned a lot about what does it take

932
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:41,680
Speaker 2: to lead when you're trying to merge our generation with

933
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:44,560
Speaker 2: a younger generation, often by screwing it up. I make

934
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:46,239
Speaker 2: fun of myself a ton in there to set up

935
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:50,520
Speaker 2: these chapters, but it's more, hopefully like the reason each

936
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:55,280
Speaker 2: chapter ends with these action oriented items is hopefully five, ten, fifteen,

937
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:58,040
Speaker 2: twenty of the chapters you find so interesting that you're

938
00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:00,120
Speaker 2: going back to it when you're dealing with how do

939
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:02,319
Speaker 2: I deal with a bad boss? Or how do I.

940
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:03,560
Speaker 1: Think a fire someone?

941
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:05,279
Speaker 2: You know, how do I fire someone? Which is like,

942
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:06,719
Speaker 2: no one taught me how to fire someone.

943
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:11,680
Speaker 1: We did a terrible job early on, and you've learned

944
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:16,160
Speaker 1: that you can fire somebody with grace and as you said,

945
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:17,480
Speaker 1: keep it classy.

946
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:20,400
Speaker 2: Yes, but you're not You're not born with that, certainly.

947
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:22,239
Speaker 2: I wasn't born with that of so now was like

948
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:24,719
Speaker 2: a we'd start a company, I'm running things, and I

949
00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:26,759
Speaker 2: have to fire this guy. And the poor guy comes

950
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:29,360
Speaker 2: in and all I do is list the ten reasons

951
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:30,879
Speaker 2: that he's not good at his job. I had never

952
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:33,400
Speaker 2: given him pre warning. I had never given him a

953
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:36,760
Speaker 2: chance to correct. I did everything wrong, but I didn't

954
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:39,120
Speaker 2: know what right was. And so hopefully in the book

955
00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:42,080
Speaker 2: people will see, oh, here's here's how you can pop.

956
00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:44,200
Speaker 2: Here's how you can do that in a difficult situation.

957
00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:47,160
Speaker 3: And Katie, what Here's what's magical about the book is

958
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:52,760
Speaker 3: that it's not aspirational, that it is actually Jim's journey. Yes,

959
00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:57,000
Speaker 3: so he kept a literal iPhone diary in his notes

960
00:48:57,440 --> 00:49:01,480
Speaker 3: app while he was living all of this, and this

961
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:03,640
Speaker 3: is the book, and like I've lived it now for

962
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:08,560
Speaker 3: twenty plus years with him, and he's made a real

963
00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:13,760
Speaker 3: difference to me that I'm twenty pounds less because of

964
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:18,279
Speaker 3: the fitness ideas that we have in here there too,

965
00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:23,919
Speaker 3: like he started as having a big macbelly and since then,

966
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:28,160
Speaker 3: every year since then has been better than the year before.

967
00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:32,120
Speaker 3: A very simple metric that anyone.

968
00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:35,520
Speaker 1: Can reason to buy this damn book.

969
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:38,720
Speaker 2: But I don't say it's hard. I say in the opening,

970
00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:42,440
Speaker 2: I said, like in some ways to write a book

971
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:45,920
Speaker 2: that's about giving people life advice. I hated the idea

972
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:48,520
Speaker 2: because it just feels like you're a jackass, Like, look

973
00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:51,359
Speaker 2: at it, I've figured it out, and it's I'm trying

974
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:53,319
Speaker 2: to set up No, Like, if I could figure it out,

975
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:55,000
Speaker 2: you could surely figure it out. And one of the

976
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:58,000
Speaker 2: big themes is, and it took me a long time

977
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:00,480
Speaker 2: to really realize, it's just how much we can control.

978
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:03,600
Speaker 2: We have this natural default to blame our bosses, blame

979
00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:07,000
Speaker 2: our parents, blame our upbringing, blame our college, blame our teachers,

980
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:09,319
Speaker 2: as opposed to Nope. Every day I get up and

981
00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:11,200
Speaker 2: I get to decide, like what am I going to

982
00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:12,839
Speaker 2: put in my body? Am I going to work out?

983
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:14,359
Speaker 2: Am I going to be kind to my wife? Am

984
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:16,360
Speaker 2: I going to find special time alone away from a

985
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:18,799
Speaker 2: phone with my children? Am I going to deal with

986
00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:21,799
Speaker 2: a complex work situation where I'm proud of the way

987
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:25,160
Speaker 2: that I handle it versus not like you control a lot?

988
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:28,440
Speaker 2: And I'm probably a little nutty in the area in

989
00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:31,359
Speaker 2: terms of putting more thought into each and every one

990
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 2: of those dimensions. But I think most people make the

991
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:35,560
Speaker 2: mistake of not putting nearly enough. They just kind of

992
00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:36,440
Speaker 2: Bob along.

993
00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:38,840
Speaker 1: With that happen, and Annie Dillard says, how we spend

994
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:41,239
Speaker 1: our days is how we spend our lives, and I

995
00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:44,759
Speaker 1: think people don't realize that to your point, every day

996
00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:49,520
Speaker 1: you make decisions and that it all is compiled to

997
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:56,239
Speaker 1: make up your life for better for worse. When we

998
00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:59,520
Speaker 1: come back, how a founder's values can make or break

999
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:19,759
Speaker 1: their company's morale, productivity, and more. One of the things

1000
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:22,400
Speaker 1: I also love about the book, I think because I

1001
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:24,880
Speaker 1: love Mike and I like the way you talk about

1002
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:28,799
Speaker 1: Mike being this eternal optimist, how his glass isn't just

1003
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:32,040
Speaker 1: half full, it's like overflowing. And you're more of a

1004
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:35,640
Speaker 1: realist and a little more of a cynic. But what

1005
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:41,040
Speaker 1: I think aligns you all and makes this partnership so powerful,

1006
00:51:41,120 --> 00:51:44,239
Speaker 1: and I think it emanates into your whole company is

1007
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:48,600
Speaker 1: the values you espouse in your professional lives but also

1008
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:52,080
Speaker 1: in your personal lives. Can you talk about that, because

1009
00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:56,440
Speaker 1: you know, I think that's really missing from the world

1010
00:51:56,480 --> 00:51:57,200
Speaker 1: in many ways.

1011
00:51:57,360 --> 00:52:00,560
Speaker 2: I think you nailed it. Like I'm so worried about

1012
00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:03,239
Speaker 2: the people in positions of power these days on whether

1013
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:05,759
Speaker 2: they've thought about that values and all of us can

1014
00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:07,520
Speaker 2: sit there and think like what do you believe in? What?

1015
00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:10,279
Speaker 2: How do you want to be seen? And how do

1016
00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:11,799
Speaker 2: you want your children to see.

1017
00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:14,880
Speaker 1: It's like when David Brooks talks about eulogy values.

1018
00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:17,880
Speaker 2: Yes, but it's that like you want like like what

1019
00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:19,680
Speaker 2: and anyone can sit down and say it, like what

1020
00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:22,040
Speaker 2: are your non negotiables? Like I'm going to be honest

1021
00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:24,200
Speaker 2: even when it hurts. I am going to be transparent,

1022
00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:26,920
Speaker 2: even when even when it might not be in my

1023
00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:30,520
Speaker 2: best self interest. I Am always going to like push

1024
00:52:30,560 --> 00:52:33,560
Speaker 2: myself and others to be high achieving, but never at

1025
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:37,480
Speaker 2: the expense of being a bad person. And here's the thing.

1026
00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:40,799
Speaker 2: And you've you've lived it in TV for sure, and

1027
00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:45,279
Speaker 2: now you're seeing it as an entrepreneur. It is insane

1028
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:49,480
Speaker 2: how contagious we are. Insane. If you are sitting in

1029
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:51,759
Speaker 2: a position of power, whether you're a CEO, or whether

1030
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:54,200
Speaker 2: you're a manager, or whether you're a little league coach,

1031
00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:59,640
Speaker 2: the way you carry yourself is instantly contagious. If you

1032
00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:03,080
Speaker 2: are a good person who works hard, who gives people grace,

1033
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:06,560
Speaker 2: who show some empathy, it almost within weeks you'll see

1034
00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:10,200
Speaker 2: it everywhere around you. That opposite is true if you're

1035
00:53:10,239 --> 00:53:14,879
Speaker 2: a jackass. If you're a truth dodger, if you are

1036
00:53:15,120 --> 00:53:18,080
Speaker 2: a mischief maker, you're a cancer.

1037
00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:20,040
Speaker 1: You're a mischief maker. You can put it in a

1038
00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:23,280
Speaker 1: bad way, but I don't see creating drama.

1039
00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:27,040
Speaker 2: Creating drama like if you're that your whole company, your

1040
00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:29,239
Speaker 2: whole team, your whole litle league team, it's going to

1041
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:33,040
Speaker 2: be full of drama. It's going to be full of dishonorable.

1042
00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:33,920
Speaker 3: Distraction from the job of the mission.

1043
00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:36,640
Speaker 2: And it's crazy. And I think that I hate it

1044
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:39,880
Speaker 2: when I see church leaders, or when I see political leaders,

1045
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:45,040
Speaker 2: or I see business leaders not carrying like this. It's

1046
00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:47,120
Speaker 2: like a blessing that we have right now, not just

1047
00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:48,960
Speaker 2: to be able to that people will listen to what

1048
00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:51,440
Speaker 2: we write or to what we say, but that people

1049
00:53:51,920 --> 00:53:54,680
Speaker 2: work for us and count on us, and that people

1050
00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:57,520
Speaker 2: don't carry that and say, you have like this obligation

1051
00:53:57,800 --> 00:53:59,600
Speaker 2: to humanity inside. Not to be cheesy, but you have

1052
00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:03,120
Speaker 2: an oblation to humanity to do the best you can

1053
00:54:03,280 --> 00:54:05,719
Speaker 2: with that and to make people feel better and to

1054
00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:08,839
Speaker 2: make them do better things. And sometimes when I talk

1055
00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:12,840
Speaker 2: about are you soft man, you're woke or whatever, bullshit, like,

1056
00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:16,239
Speaker 2: there's nothing soft about me, and there's nothing woke about me,

1057
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:19,439
Speaker 2: but there is a I think you can be really

1058
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:23,080
Speaker 2: high achieving and you can have really awesome results and

1059
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:26,880
Speaker 2: still be a good person, surround yourself with good people

1060
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:29,200
Speaker 2: and then watch the echo effect of that. I think

1061
00:54:29,200 --> 00:54:31,000
Speaker 2: those are very doable, and I think a lot of

1062
00:54:31,040 --> 00:54:33,719
Speaker 2: what's in the book is helping managers figure out how

1063
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:34,880
Speaker 2: do you put those pieces together?

1064
00:54:35,040 --> 00:54:37,720
Speaker 1: Because you're right, I think people don't aren't really taught

1065
00:54:37,760 --> 00:54:40,920
Speaker 1: how to be leaders. You know, they find themselves in

1066
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:46,600
Speaker 1: these positions, and I think there are some you know,

1067
00:54:46,719 --> 00:54:52,080
Speaker 1: milestones and some kind of blueprint. Everybody has a different personality,

1068
00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:55,239
Speaker 1: but I think this is incredibly helpful, not only to

1069
00:54:55,400 --> 00:54:59,799
Speaker 1: people in positions of power, people who are working for them,

1070
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:02,520
Speaker 1: who you know you want them to do well. You

1071
00:55:02,600 --> 00:55:06,360
Speaker 1: want them to rise to the occasion and then sometimes

1072
00:55:06,480 --> 00:55:08,240
Speaker 1: even rise out of your company.

1073
00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:10,359
Speaker 2: Well, think about a twenty two year old right now,

1074
00:55:10,400 --> 00:55:12,480
Speaker 2: So think about you when you're twenty two versus a

1075
00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:15,000
Speaker 2: twenty two year old. Now. I don't know about your upbringing,

1076
00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:17,960
Speaker 2: but like I went to church, I was in the

1077
00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:21,440
Speaker 2: Boy Scouts. I went to schools where I had small

1078
00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:24,040
Speaker 2: enough class sizes, where I had teachers who were intimately

1079
00:55:24,040 --> 00:55:27,080
Speaker 2: involved I played little league sports where coaches knew where

1080
00:55:27,120 --> 00:55:30,359
Speaker 2: I was, and I had parents and grandparents. So look

1081
00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:33,680
Speaker 2: at all of that moral structure that was around me.

1082
00:55:34,200 --> 00:55:36,160
Speaker 2: Now look at your kid, who's twenty sights.

1083
00:55:36,080 --> 00:55:37,600
Speaker 1: All thought you were still getting high on.

1084
00:55:37,760 --> 00:55:40,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, look at I was a screwpers by having everything

1085
00:55:40,120 --> 00:55:43,000
Speaker 2: built for me. But look at some of these kids

1086
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:46,040
Speaker 2: coming through. They didn't have boy Scouts or girls Scouts.

1087
00:55:46,080 --> 00:55:48,600
Speaker 2: They didn't they're not going to church. They might be

1088
00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:50,200
Speaker 2: in classes that are too big for a teacher to

1089
00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:52,480
Speaker 2: pay attention to them, and they're staring at their phone

1090
00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:55,000
Speaker 2: all day looking at people who they think have a

1091
00:55:55,560 --> 00:55:58,759
Speaker 2: more entertaining life and are acuter or more handsome than.

1092
00:55:58,680 --> 00:55:59,920
Speaker 1: Them, or richer whatever.

1093
00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:02,920
Speaker 2: They're dying for leadership, dying they need it like we

1094
00:56:03,040 --> 00:56:07,080
Speaker 2: fundamentally thirst for like morality in leadership. I really do

1095
00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:09,360
Speaker 2: believe that, and I think the only place that's going

1096
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:11,560
Speaker 2: to provide it are the people like us who are

1097
00:56:11,600 --> 00:56:14,000
Speaker 2: in positions to make it affected very little ways. I

1098
00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:15,880
Speaker 2: have five hundred people here, we want one hundred and

1099
00:56:15,880 --> 00:56:19,040
Speaker 2: fifty people maybe at HQ, but like, but you know

1100
00:56:19,520 --> 00:56:23,440
Speaker 2: you've got you said fifty people, right, forty some people? Yeah,

1101
00:56:23,480 --> 00:56:25,560
Speaker 2: that's a big difference. Those forty are then going to

1102
00:56:25,560 --> 00:56:27,680
Speaker 2: make a difference on a bunch of people in their

1103
00:56:27,680 --> 00:56:28,200
Speaker 2: own lives.

1104
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:31,040
Speaker 1: What have you learned from from Jim and what do

1105
00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:32,200
Speaker 1: you think you've taught him.

1106
00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:35,719
Speaker 3: One of the great things about this book is it

1107
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:39,640
Speaker 3: also is aimed at rising stars. So you mentioned the

1108
00:56:39,719 --> 00:56:45,120
Speaker 3: bad boss, and in here Jim talks about like what

1109
00:56:45,200 --> 00:56:50,120
Speaker 3: to do about a bad boss and taking feedback, giving feedback,

1110
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:55,319
Speaker 3: taking feedback. Something that I discovered is that a lot

1111
00:56:55,320 --> 00:56:58,680
Speaker 3: of times, the way that you react to this could

1112
00:56:58,680 --> 00:57:01,239
Speaker 3: be in a relationship or in a working place. The

1113
00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:04,040
Speaker 3: way that you react to what someone tells you often

1114
00:57:04,120 --> 00:57:07,719
Speaker 3: vindicates what they said. Mike, you're a little defensive. What

1115
00:57:07,760 --> 00:57:10,399
Speaker 3: do you mean? But just yesterday I was like, we

1116
00:57:10,560 --> 00:57:14,200
Speaker 3: often do that, and if we can catch ourselves, we're

1117
00:57:14,200 --> 00:57:16,320
Speaker 3: gonna have a better relationship, We're gonna be better in

1118
00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:20,480
Speaker 3: the workplace. The biggest thing I've learned from Jim was that,

1119
00:57:20,800 --> 00:57:23,480
Speaker 3: you know me, I've always been a story hound, a newshound,

1120
00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:26,400
Speaker 3: like always thinking about sleeping.

1121
00:57:26,600 --> 00:57:27,840
Speaker 1: I used to worry about Mike.

1122
00:57:29,200 --> 00:57:30,600
Speaker 3: Now you don't have to worry because now I have

1123
00:57:30,640 --> 00:57:33,880
Speaker 3: my aura ring, which gives me a gummy crown when

1124
00:57:34,440 --> 00:57:37,800
Speaker 3: I get my good night's sleep. But I'm glad you

1125
00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:39,600
Speaker 3: said that because it's very late to the biggest thing

1126
00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:44,280
Speaker 3: that I've learned from Jim is opening the aperture of life,

1127
00:57:44,600 --> 00:57:48,920
Speaker 3: working more muscles in life, thinking beyond just like what

1128
00:57:49,040 --> 00:57:53,280
Speaker 3: is the next story, and making sure that he has

1129
00:57:53,320 --> 00:57:55,200
Speaker 3: a great way that he expresses it. He talk talks

1130
00:57:55,200 --> 00:58:01,400
Speaker 3: about his happiness matrix and having a bucket for family,

1131
00:58:01,520 --> 00:58:07,480
Speaker 3: for fitness, for faith, for community, service, for hobbies, for travel,

1132
00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:12,440
Speaker 3: and the magic is and the great insight is that

1133
00:58:13,080 --> 00:58:17,200
Speaker 3: those buckets don't automatically fill themselves. That if we're not

1134
00:58:17,400 --> 00:58:22,760
Speaker 3: intentional about investing in those buckets, it becomes work and

1135
00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:26,120
Speaker 3: then whatever's left. And that's the mistake that so many

1136
00:58:26,160 --> 00:58:29,880
Speaker 3: young people make and that I made, is that the

1137
00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:36,000
Speaker 3: default was everything being work and fitness, hobby, sleep, health,

1138
00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:40,160
Speaker 3: like all that that just squeezed in at the end.

1139
00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:45,160
Speaker 3: And so you mentioned sleep. We do a great newsletter

1140
00:58:46,520 --> 00:58:50,080
Speaker 3: every evening finish line. It's We've got more response to

1141
00:58:50,080 --> 00:58:53,040
Speaker 3: it than any newsletter we have ever gotten. And it's

1142
00:58:53,080 --> 00:58:57,320
Speaker 3: all life leadership, health, wellness, fitness. One of the great

1143
00:58:57,400 --> 00:59:02,080
Speaker 3: learnings is sweep longer, live longer. I think that's not

1144
00:59:02,160 --> 00:59:05,200
Speaker 3: intuitive to people like our people.

1145
00:59:04,960 --> 00:59:07,240
Speaker 1: I used to brag about how little sleep they needed.

1146
00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:09,320
Speaker 1: It was kind of a badge of honor. I remember

1147
00:59:09,360 --> 00:59:13,160
Speaker 1: Brian Gumblestein and I'd get by on four hours to sleep. Meanwhile,

1148
00:59:13,160 --> 00:59:15,000
Speaker 1: I'm like, how can you do that? It would run

1149
00:59:15,120 --> 00:59:16,080
Speaker 1: me for the rest month.

1150
00:59:16,520 --> 00:59:20,400
Speaker 2: I hate to do that twice every night, and then some.

1151
00:59:21,600 --> 00:59:24,800
Speaker 3: And so and so, including sleep, like both watching Jim

1152
00:59:25,040 --> 00:59:29,440
Speaker 3: talking with Jim, like his correction, like I've seen that

1153
00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:34,640
Speaker 3: looking beyond like what we're typing, like what's literally on

1154
00:59:34,680 --> 00:59:37,640
Speaker 3: your screen. In the end, that's more of a service

1155
00:59:38,000 --> 00:59:41,760
Speaker 3: to your audience and to your colleagues and to your company.

1156
00:59:42,160 --> 00:59:46,680
Speaker 3: Like if you're able to come like strong, rested, wise

1157
00:59:47,360 --> 00:59:49,479
Speaker 3: not rattled, what you're going to do a better job.

1158
00:59:49,920 --> 00:59:51,600
Speaker 2: This is one of the reasons in terms of your question,

1159
00:59:51,680 --> 00:59:53,800
Speaker 2: like what did I learn from him? Is like I

1160
00:59:53,840 --> 00:59:58,400
Speaker 2: hate these like entrepreneur CEOs, these stories of like oh,

1161
00:59:58,480 --> 01:00:01,200
Speaker 2: these like superhuman people who on their own or changing

1162
01:00:01,200 --> 01:00:03,800
Speaker 2: the world, and all we are is a collection of

1163
01:00:03,800 --> 01:00:06,240
Speaker 2: the totality of our experiences and other people like take

1164
01:00:06,240 --> 01:00:08,600
Speaker 2: away my parents, my wife, my kids, and Mike and

1165
01:00:08,960 --> 01:00:11,320
Speaker 2: like I'm nothing, Like there's no way that I would

1166
01:00:11,400 --> 01:00:14,040
Speaker 2: have had success. And with Mike the thing that you

1167
01:00:14,120 --> 01:00:17,439
Speaker 2: put your finger on, which is like just like his people.

1168
01:00:17,520 --> 01:00:19,400
Speaker 2: People don't realize he might be the most famous person

1169
01:00:19,440 --> 01:00:21,880
Speaker 2: you know who's also the most humble person you know, right,

1170
01:00:21,920 --> 01:00:25,560
Speaker 2: and like in so much graciousness and so much humility,

1171
01:00:25,720 --> 01:00:28,400
Speaker 2: and those things don't come as naturally to me as

1172
01:00:28,400 --> 01:00:30,400
Speaker 2: they do to Mike, and like, but it's rubbed off

1173
01:00:30,440 --> 01:00:31,040
Speaker 2: a come.

1174
01:00:31,080 --> 01:00:33,160
Speaker 1: But you know what I love, Jim, is that you

1175
01:00:33,240 --> 01:00:35,400
Speaker 1: admit in this book I was a schmuck or I

1176
01:00:35,520 --> 01:00:38,120
Speaker 1: was a jerk about this, or you know, I'm more

1177
01:00:38,160 --> 01:00:41,520
Speaker 1: cynical than Mike. I think it's very transparent. And by

1178
01:00:41,520 --> 01:00:43,400
Speaker 1: the way, I think that may be one of the

1179
01:00:43,400 --> 01:00:47,480
Speaker 1: most important words in this book is radical transparency and

1180
01:00:47,520 --> 01:00:51,120
Speaker 1: that you've learned that and that that is an intuitive

1181
01:00:51,280 --> 01:00:54,240
Speaker 1: either because I think that was not the business mindset

1182
01:00:54,320 --> 01:00:57,120
Speaker 1: for us growing up when we looked at corporations, this

1183
01:00:57,400 --> 01:01:00,880
Speaker 1: kind of honest being an honest broker for all your employees.

1184
01:01:01,200 --> 01:01:03,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, and like, if you think about it, if you're

1185
01:01:03,760 --> 01:01:07,400
Speaker 2: truly transparent, which is another one of those like buzzy words,

1186
01:01:07,400 --> 01:01:10,240
Speaker 2: but if you're truly transpl it means you're but it

1187
01:01:10,280 --> 01:01:12,160
Speaker 2: means you're totally you've gotten to the point in life

1188
01:01:12,200 --> 01:01:14,439
Speaker 2: where you're comfortable in your skin. Like I know there's

1189
01:01:14,440 --> 01:01:16,080
Speaker 2: gonna be some people who like me, don't like me.

1190
01:01:16,120 --> 01:01:17,880
Speaker 2: Some people like the book, somebody hate the book. Like

1191
01:01:18,360 --> 01:01:20,680
Speaker 2: I'm comfortable with that, right, I'm comfortable knowing.

1192
01:01:20,760 --> 01:01:21,840
Speaker 1: Help make it to that point.

1193
01:01:22,120 --> 01:01:24,920
Speaker 2: It's hard. I mean it's listen, it's a daily struggle, right,

1194
01:01:24,920 --> 01:01:28,600
Speaker 2: but it is like the more you can just be

1195
01:01:28,800 --> 01:01:31,600
Speaker 2: yourself and express yourself, like I would like to think

1196
01:01:31,640 --> 01:01:33,840
Speaker 2: if you talk to the people here, the reason we

1197
01:01:33,880 --> 01:01:35,240
Speaker 2: don't have a ton of drama and we do have

1198
01:01:35,240 --> 01:01:38,000
Speaker 2: pretty high productivity is I don't think they ever think

1199
01:01:38,000 --> 01:01:40,720
Speaker 2: we're full of shit, Like we'll answer everything. If we

1200
01:01:40,760 --> 01:01:43,000
Speaker 2: screw something up, I'll say, man, I screwed that one up.

1201
01:01:43,120 --> 01:01:45,400
Speaker 2: Or if we get something right, I'll say we're killing

1202
01:01:45,440 --> 01:01:47,760
Speaker 2: it here. And they're not going like, I don't know,

1203
01:01:47,840 --> 01:01:49,840
Speaker 2: is he real? Is he not real? Like that doesn't

1204
01:01:49,880 --> 01:01:51,480
Speaker 2: mean they all like me. I'm sure there's a ton

1205
01:01:51,520 --> 01:01:54,000
Speaker 2: of things people dislike about me, but but I don't

1206
01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:56,600
Speaker 2: think there's there's never a wonderment about like are we

1207
01:01:56,760 --> 01:01:57,320
Speaker 2: being straight?

1208
01:01:57,640 --> 01:02:01,240
Speaker 1: Nobody thinks you're a bullshitter, which is great, right, you know,

1209
01:02:01,960 --> 01:02:03,600
Speaker 1: people respect you for that.

1210
01:02:03,360 --> 01:02:07,120
Speaker 3: And wait, sorry, Casey. One quick thing on humility, and

1211
01:02:07,160 --> 01:02:11,120
Speaker 3: that is that as you have success personally professionally, is

1212
01:02:11,160 --> 01:02:14,240
Speaker 3: the people around this table have. Like I feel like

1213
01:02:14,280 --> 01:02:16,760
Speaker 3: one of the things that helps with humility is you

1214
01:02:16,880 --> 01:02:20,760
Speaker 3: realize a certain percentage of it was luck, for sure,

1215
01:02:21,400 --> 01:02:24,479
Speaker 3: and all the people who made it possible, the people

1216
01:02:24,480 --> 01:02:27,240
Speaker 3: who gave you a break of the person for me,

1217
01:02:27,800 --> 01:02:30,920
Speaker 3: Gail shay Nardi at the Richmond Times Dispatch and Shenandoah

1218
01:02:30,960 --> 01:02:34,080
Speaker 3: County Bureau in Stanton, Virginia, who like spend hours with

1219
01:02:34,200 --> 01:02:36,880
Speaker 3: me on the phone when I was a Washington Lee student,

1220
01:02:37,080 --> 01:02:40,360
Speaker 3: like talking through my stories, helping me write a story

1221
01:02:40,360 --> 01:02:45,040
Speaker 3: for the big boy paper, and the lessons like from Gail.

1222
01:02:45,240 --> 01:02:48,320
Speaker 3: I use this today when I write axios am. And

1223
01:02:48,360 --> 01:02:52,480
Speaker 3: there's so many people like that. And we all are

1224
01:02:52,560 --> 01:02:57,040
Speaker 3: beneficiaries of right place, right time, and definitely we had

1225
01:02:57,080 --> 01:03:02,280
Speaker 3: the wisdom and the great to use our gifts. But

1226
01:03:03,440 --> 01:03:07,440
Speaker 3: paying attention to that makes it much easier to pay

1227
01:03:07,480 --> 01:03:10,200
Speaker 3: attention to. Okay, here's what I have. How can I

1228
01:03:10,280 --> 01:03:13,600
Speaker 3: serve the audience, the colleagues, the people coming along to

1229
01:03:13,640 --> 01:03:14,680
Speaker 3: take our jobs.

1230
01:03:14,880 --> 01:03:17,080
Speaker 1: And you know, I thought it was interesting. You have

1231
01:03:17,280 --> 01:03:22,720
Speaker 1: a recommendation from mister Rogers, Fred Rogers, the kindest person

1232
01:03:22,840 --> 01:03:25,760
Speaker 1: I think in the history of the world, where you

1233
01:03:25,880 --> 01:03:29,000
Speaker 1: take a minute and you think about the people who

1234
01:03:29,040 --> 01:03:31,640
Speaker 1: helped you along the way. I love a lot of

1235
01:03:31,680 --> 01:03:34,960
Speaker 1: the sort of inherent wisdom in so much of this book, Jim,

1236
01:03:35,000 --> 01:03:38,040
Speaker 1: and I'm excited to try to live my life with

1237
01:03:38,120 --> 01:03:39,680
Speaker 1: more humanity and more thought.

1238
01:03:39,680 --> 01:03:41,400
Speaker 3: And I'm not giving you a show what people think.

1239
01:03:41,880 --> 01:03:44,800
Speaker 1: Well that I you know, I think women in particular

1240
01:03:44,960 --> 01:03:48,640
Speaker 1: are people pleasers. And you know, I find it crushing

1241
01:03:48,680 --> 01:03:51,440
Speaker 1: when people not so much when they criticize me if

1242
01:03:51,480 --> 01:03:55,400
Speaker 1: it's a legitimate thing that I believe in, but when

1243
01:03:55,400 --> 01:03:59,840
Speaker 1: they misrepresent me and misunderstand something I'm saying, that's when

1244
01:03:59,840 --> 01:04:02,480
Speaker 1: it really bugs me. But the book is divided up

1245
01:04:02,480 --> 01:04:05,880
Speaker 1: into three sections, life, work, work stuff, and boss stuff,

1246
01:04:06,520 --> 01:04:09,360
Speaker 1: And as I said, it offers a lot of nuggets

1247
01:04:09,360 --> 01:04:12,680
Speaker 1: of wisdom. Your life is a story, a long, winding,

1248
01:04:12,800 --> 01:04:17,000
Speaker 1: wildly unpredictable narrative, so write it literally. I think that's

1249
01:04:17,040 --> 01:04:20,320
Speaker 1: what you mean, right, Jim, For like thinking about what

1250
01:04:20,360 --> 01:04:22,960
Speaker 1: you're going to do every day? Or is that something different?

1251
01:04:23,160 --> 01:04:26,720
Speaker 2: Sure, no, it is. Again it goes to like understanding

1252
01:04:26,720 --> 01:04:28,600
Speaker 2: how much you control. Like on the one end, you say, God,

1253
01:04:28,600 --> 01:04:31,120
Speaker 2: it sounds self indulgent. You're worried about your own narrative.

1254
01:04:31,960 --> 01:04:34,520
Speaker 2: I want to gut check myself constantly, Like I want

1255
01:04:34,520 --> 01:04:36,640
Speaker 2: to be a great husband. I'm married twenty three years.

1256
01:04:37,040 --> 01:04:39,360
Speaker 2: I'm not always great husband. I've gotten much better at

1257
01:04:39,800 --> 01:04:41,560
Speaker 2: I want to be a great father who has like

1258
01:04:41,600 --> 01:04:44,160
Speaker 2: a really unique relationship with each one of my kids.

1259
01:04:44,440 --> 01:04:46,640
Speaker 2: The most touching thing that I can say is, like,

1260
01:04:46,640 --> 01:04:48,360
Speaker 2: in last month, I've gotten a text from each one

1261
01:04:48,400 --> 01:04:50,360
Speaker 2: of my three kids calling me their best friend. Like

1262
01:04:50,480 --> 01:04:53,280
Speaker 2: I love that, like that, but I think about that.

1263
01:04:53,440 --> 01:04:56,240
Speaker 2: I think about that all the time, about like how

1264
01:04:56,240 --> 01:04:57,800
Speaker 2: do I want people that work? I want people to

1265
01:04:57,800 --> 01:05:00,880
Speaker 2: say high character, high energy, whatever, but that that character

1266
01:05:01,040 --> 01:05:03,680
Speaker 2: is at the base of it, and I think everyone

1267
01:05:03,720 --> 01:05:06,000
Speaker 2: should do that, Like just how do you want what

1268
01:05:06,080 --> 01:05:08,600
Speaker 2: do you want to be? Like I don't understand how

1269
01:05:08,640 --> 01:05:10,880
Speaker 2: you don't do that now that I've kind of started

1270
01:05:10,880 --> 01:05:15,720
Speaker 2: doing it, because like it pasts for around seventy eighty years, right,

1271
01:05:15,800 --> 01:05:18,320
Speaker 2: and we have like sixty five that are seventy that

1272
01:05:18,360 --> 01:05:21,640
Speaker 2: are like awesome, and then it gets harder, like why

1273
01:05:21,680 --> 01:05:26,520
Speaker 2: not maximize that? Maximize like your own performance, your own happiness,

1274
01:05:26,560 --> 01:05:29,640
Speaker 2: the effect that you have on other people, and kind

1275
01:05:29,680 --> 01:05:31,560
Speaker 2: of not the legacy you leave, but just like the

1276
01:05:31,960 --> 01:05:35,240
Speaker 2: contagiousness of your own behavior. And I think if you

1277
01:05:35,360 --> 01:05:37,840
Speaker 2: do those things, like good things will happen. And going

1278
01:05:37,840 --> 01:05:39,800
Speaker 2: back to your mister, like I became obsessed with Fred

1279
01:05:39,880 --> 01:05:41,320
Speaker 2: Rodgers and it's the reason I wrote a column on

1280
01:05:41,360 --> 01:05:44,800
Speaker 2: Fred and Mike it because there is so many parallels

1281
01:05:44,840 --> 01:05:46,720
Speaker 2: between the two of them in terms of but it

1282
01:05:46,760 --> 01:05:50,840
Speaker 2: is just like crazy success but crazy humility. And like

1283
01:05:50,920 --> 01:05:53,880
Speaker 2: I've started in the last year, like writing down I

1284
01:05:53,920 --> 01:05:56,080
Speaker 2: have my own list of like who are the people

1285
01:05:56,120 --> 01:05:57,720
Speaker 2: that have made a difference in my life? And now

1286
01:05:57,720 --> 01:05:59,960
Speaker 2: it's like one hundred long, and every week or two

1287
01:06:00,000 --> 01:06:02,120
Speaker 2: we'll try to just read it just to ground you

1288
01:06:02,280 --> 01:06:05,720
Speaker 2: to remember, like we're all like I can be as

1289
01:06:05,840 --> 01:06:08,200
Speaker 2: arrogant as the next person. I could have hubris like

1290
01:06:08,240 --> 01:06:11,720
Speaker 2: anyone else, Like just like grounding yourself in that and

1291
01:06:11,880 --> 01:06:14,360
Speaker 2: not everyone should do everything in there. The idea is

1292
01:06:14,400 --> 01:06:16,720
Speaker 2: like just come up with your own little matrix of

1293
01:06:16,800 --> 01:06:18,760
Speaker 2: like what are the things that you do that are

1294
01:06:18,800 --> 01:06:21,360
Speaker 2: much more purposeful so that you're bringing in like more

1295
01:06:21,360 --> 01:06:26,200
Speaker 2: health and more success and more just like feeling satisfied

1296
01:06:26,280 --> 01:06:28,720
Speaker 2: and feeling like you're living the kind of life you

1297
01:06:28,720 --> 01:06:30,480
Speaker 2: would want, you know, to live.

1298
01:06:30,880 --> 01:06:34,160
Speaker 3: One of their dimensions of the book, Katie that comes

1299
01:06:34,240 --> 01:06:36,800
Speaker 3: naturally to Jim and doesn't come naturally to me at

1300
01:06:36,840 --> 01:06:41,000
Speaker 3: all is hard stuff. And I've gotten much better at

1301
01:06:41,040 --> 01:06:46,680
Speaker 3: that watching learning from Jim. But you gravitate toward hard stuff.

1302
01:06:46,960 --> 01:06:49,760
Speaker 2: I mean you probably experience with a startup, like at

1303
01:06:49,760 --> 01:06:52,800
Speaker 2: some point, like you just, I used to be so emotional, right,

1304
01:06:52,840 --> 01:06:55,080
Speaker 2: so I would like at political something good's happening and

1305
01:06:55,080 --> 01:06:58,200
Speaker 2: I'm waw, and something bad's happening and I'm like ah,

1306
01:06:58,320 --> 01:07:00,720
Speaker 2: And I had to learn that like, oh shit, I'm

1307
01:07:00,720 --> 01:07:02,920
Speaker 2: gonna die if I live this way. And so I

1308
01:07:02,920 --> 01:07:05,120
Speaker 2: had to learn to like, Okay, I'm just gonna like

1309
01:07:05,360 --> 01:07:07,160
Speaker 2: bad things are going to happen. That things are gonna happen.

1310
01:07:07,280 --> 01:07:10,680
Speaker 2: My job is to keep a clear mind. And over time,

1311
01:07:10,720 --> 01:07:13,280
Speaker 2: I've kind of learned to like the hard stuff. Like

1312
01:07:13,320 --> 01:07:17,080
Speaker 2: I'm really good at having the most uncomfortable, difficult conversations

1313
01:07:17,080 --> 01:07:19,640
Speaker 2: with people because I've learned to do it, like I'll

1314
01:07:19,680 --> 01:07:21,800
Speaker 2: write it down. I'll be very fair with them, I'll

1315
01:07:21,840 --> 01:07:24,760
Speaker 2: be very transparent and honest with them. I'll give them

1316
01:07:24,880 --> 01:07:27,440
Speaker 2: kind of a remedy to the problem. But I don't

1317
01:07:27,880 --> 01:07:30,680
Speaker 2: have a hard time having those conversations or dealing with

1318
01:07:30,720 --> 01:07:33,920
Speaker 2: the hard stuff of business. And it's a lot of it.

1319
01:07:33,960 --> 01:07:36,000
Speaker 2: It's like mindset a lot of It's just like we've

1320
01:07:36,000 --> 01:07:38,760
Speaker 2: had two startups and crazy media, and we deal with

1321
01:07:38,800 --> 01:07:41,640
Speaker 2: so much bad stuff that maybe it beat the carrying

1322
01:07:41,720 --> 01:07:44,200
Speaker 2: out of me, so I'm able to look at it

1323
01:07:44,240 --> 01:07:47,960
Speaker 2: more clinically. But yeah, I think people. That's why I

1324
01:07:48,000 --> 01:07:51,000
Speaker 2: write a lot about firing, Like I hate how companies

1325
01:07:51,040 --> 01:07:54,280
Speaker 2: treat people. I think it is so bad when someone

1326
01:07:54,320 --> 01:07:57,360
Speaker 2: loses their job and they didn't see it coming. Whereas

1327
01:07:57,400 --> 01:07:59,560
Speaker 2: it's not that I like firing people, but I think

1328
01:07:59,560 --> 01:08:01,240
Speaker 2: you'd be hard press to find more than one or

1329
01:08:01,240 --> 01:08:04,560
Speaker 2: two people who dislike me, even if I personally fired them,

1330
01:08:04,840 --> 01:08:07,760
Speaker 2: because by what I would like them to say is like, Oh,

1331
01:08:07,880 --> 01:08:10,320
Speaker 2: Jim wrote me this very thoughtful note on what's wrong.

1332
01:08:10,400 --> 01:08:13,320
Speaker 2: He did not sugarcoat it. It was hard to read.

1333
01:08:13,600 --> 01:08:16,080
Speaker 2: He then followed up with a conversation. He showed me

1334
01:08:16,080 --> 01:08:19,360
Speaker 2: how to correct it. When he decided it wasn't corrected,

1335
01:08:19,600 --> 01:08:23,160
Speaker 2: he brought me in and he thanked me for everything

1336
01:08:23,200 --> 01:08:25,439
Speaker 2: he did but said, you're not going to work here, Like,

1337
01:08:25,520 --> 01:08:28,120
Speaker 2: if you can do that, at least you've given that,

1338
01:08:28,640 --> 01:08:32,240
Speaker 2: you've thrown as much humanity into a difficult situation as

1339
01:08:32,280 --> 01:08:35,040
Speaker 2: you possibly could. And most people don't why because they

1340
01:08:35,080 --> 01:08:37,960
Speaker 2: hate hard conversations. I hate it. It makes him feel

1341
01:08:38,320 --> 01:08:40,680
Speaker 2: so uncomfortable. Well, that's self indulgore.

1342
01:08:40,760 --> 01:08:43,480
Speaker 1: And so many leaders are so awful.

1343
01:08:43,280 --> 01:08:47,760
Speaker 2: Awful, awful at it, awful almost everybody the other's all.

1344
01:08:48,000 --> 01:08:49,959
Speaker 1: I'm just going to do a couple of little nuggets

1345
01:08:50,000 --> 01:08:51,760
Speaker 1: and then I'm going to let you guys get back

1346
01:08:51,800 --> 01:08:54,639
Speaker 1: to running your company. Almost every great thing in life

1347
01:08:54,640 --> 01:08:57,160
Speaker 1: starts with serendipity. Mike, you kind of suggested it that

1348
01:08:57,320 --> 01:09:00,400
Speaker 1: usually someone or something new entering your life by chance.

1349
01:09:01,120 --> 01:09:04,760
Speaker 1: Basically as you were saying, not only recognizing that, but

1350
01:09:05,600 --> 01:09:09,120
Speaker 1: something you mentioned about luck, you have to sort of

1351
01:09:09,360 --> 01:09:14,280
Speaker 1: recognize and capitalize on those lucky encounters and situations.

1352
01:09:14,360 --> 01:09:14,599
Speaker 2: Right.

1353
01:09:14,960 --> 01:09:19,519
Speaker 1: So it's part luck, but also part knowing what the

1354
01:09:19,600 --> 01:09:21,479
Speaker 1: luck can lead to, right, one hundred percent.

1355
01:09:21,640 --> 01:09:24,479
Speaker 3: And a specific dimension of that is having the self

1356
01:09:24,520 --> 01:09:26,880
Speaker 3: awareness or having people in your life to help you

1357
01:09:26,960 --> 01:09:30,200
Speaker 3: see what your gift is. Like when I talk to

1358
01:09:30,320 --> 01:09:33,280
Speaker 3: students house, some of the kind of a three four

1359
01:09:33,320 --> 01:09:35,759
Speaker 3: step process, like the first one to have a gift

1360
01:09:35,840 --> 01:09:38,320
Speaker 3: that's not up to you, But the second one is

1361
01:09:38,640 --> 01:09:42,040
Speaker 3: like recognize it and hone it. And think of how

1362
01:09:42,120 --> 01:09:47,720
Speaker 3: many of your social friends, classmates, very far along in

1363
01:09:47,800 --> 01:09:51,639
Speaker 3: life realized what their gift was, sometimes even after they're

1364
01:09:51,880 --> 01:09:54,600
Speaker 3: working life right, like so many people don't writ it.

1365
01:09:54,680 --> 01:09:58,600
Speaker 3: And then third of what Jim talked about is nirvana

1366
01:09:58,680 --> 01:10:01,160
Speaker 3: is having somebody who will pay you to exploit your

1367
01:10:01,200 --> 01:10:04,120
Speaker 3: gift right, pay you to do what you're going to do.

1368
01:10:04,400 --> 01:10:07,599
Speaker 3: And then the secret where I'm at is passed along

1369
01:10:07,680 --> 01:10:10,959
Speaker 3: and who can you help awaken that gift.

1370
01:10:10,760 --> 01:10:14,559
Speaker 1: In be a quitter? That threw me? Be a quitter.

1371
01:10:15,240 --> 01:10:19,000
Speaker 1: We're We're taught don't don't give up, don't quit never

1372
01:10:19,120 --> 01:10:21,559
Speaker 1: never never give in? Does wasn't that Winston Churchill?

1373
01:10:21,680 --> 01:10:24,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, but sometimes you have to quit. Like the example

1374
01:10:24,560 --> 01:10:27,800
Speaker 2: I use is I was on the Pulitzer board for prizes.

1375
01:10:27,840 --> 01:10:29,720
Speaker 2: It's like the one of the most esteemed things you

1376
01:10:29,720 --> 01:10:31,240
Speaker 2: could do in journalism. It was supposed to be a

1377
01:10:31,320 --> 01:10:33,920
Speaker 2: nine year commitment. I was three years in and I

1378
01:10:34,000 --> 01:10:37,360
Speaker 2: realized I'm trying to run a company and read fifteen

1379
01:10:37,360 --> 01:10:41,160
Speaker 2: books and judge all these categories like it's not healthy

1380
01:10:41,200 --> 01:10:43,400
Speaker 2: for my relationship with my kids or my time, and

1381
01:10:43,439 --> 01:10:45,960
Speaker 2: I quit and like usually, no, I don't think anyone

1382
01:10:45,960 --> 01:10:47,720
Speaker 2: had ever quit the board, like you just didn't do it.

1383
01:10:47,760 --> 01:10:48,920
Speaker 2: And I think they looked at me like I was

1384
01:10:48,920 --> 01:10:51,040
Speaker 2: an alien, but I was like, I'm just like someone

1385
01:10:51,080 --> 01:10:53,479
Speaker 2: else can give more time to this. And I think

1386
01:10:53,720 --> 01:10:56,439
Speaker 2: quitting bad relationships that's a big one, Like how many

1387
01:10:56,479 --> 01:10:59,000
Speaker 2: times did we think we could change somebody or do

1388
01:10:59,080 --> 01:11:01,400
Speaker 2: we think somebody would or I don't know, it's not

1389
01:11:01,479 --> 01:11:04,200
Speaker 2: that bad, like you can quit it, like that is

1390
01:11:04,240 --> 01:11:07,000
Speaker 2: a If there's one thing we've really nailed at Axios

1391
01:11:07,120 --> 01:11:09,680
Speaker 2: is like we have gotten rid of people who are

1392
01:11:09,840 --> 01:11:13,400
Speaker 2: just not good people, even when they're super talented. And

1393
01:11:13,920 --> 01:11:15,800
Speaker 2: we made a corporate choice to do that, but you

1394
01:11:15,880 --> 01:11:19,599
Speaker 2: make an individual choice, right. We always justify it. And

1395
01:11:19,640 --> 01:11:21,600
Speaker 2: it's like the minute you get rid of it, you

1396
01:11:21,600 --> 01:11:24,840
Speaker 2: can just feel it lift. Like these people who suck

1397
01:11:24,880 --> 01:11:28,080
Speaker 2: your soul and your energy, these leeches, like duh, you

1398
01:11:28,120 --> 01:11:28,880
Speaker 2: gotta get them out of.

1399
01:11:28,880 --> 01:11:30,840
Speaker 1: Your life, and you have to do.

1400
01:11:30,800 --> 01:11:32,200
Speaker 2: It fast, right, rip it off.

1401
01:11:32,280 --> 01:11:35,720
Speaker 1: It's always higher, slow, fire fast right, the.

1402
01:11:35,800 --> 01:11:38,599
Speaker 3: Power of now, and that that is one of our

1403
01:11:39,040 --> 01:11:43,360
Speaker 3: true learnings in business is the second, and this is

1404
01:11:43,360 --> 01:11:45,720
Speaker 3: true in your personal life and your professional life. The

1405
01:11:45,840 --> 01:11:49,280
Speaker 3: second you realize you should do something, move on it.

1406
01:11:49,360 --> 01:11:52,040
Speaker 1: And you also say, trust your gut, you know, which

1407
01:11:52,080 --> 01:11:54,759
Speaker 1: I think is really important too, because I think people

1408
01:11:54,800 --> 01:11:57,680
Speaker 1: hear a little voice in their head and they're like, ah, no, no, no,

1409
01:11:58,040 --> 01:12:01,080
Speaker 1: that's not right. But more often than you say, it's

1410
01:12:01,120 --> 01:12:04,519
Speaker 1: important because what your gut is telling you is actually right.

1411
01:12:04,560 --> 01:12:06,519
Speaker 2: I would say, particularly the older you get right. Like

1412
01:12:06,560 --> 01:12:08,920
Speaker 2: I think we underestimate the power of our intuition. We

1413
01:12:08,960 --> 01:12:10,880
Speaker 2: almost always know the right thing to do, we don't

1414
01:12:10,920 --> 01:12:12,960
Speaker 2: always act on it. If you just act on it,

1415
01:12:13,240 --> 01:12:15,479
Speaker 2: you can clean up the ten percent you get wrong.

1416
01:12:15,840 --> 01:12:17,799
Speaker 2: Otherwise you think yourself into a pretzel.

1417
01:12:18,040 --> 01:12:20,160
Speaker 1: I think we've covered a couple of the other ones.

1418
01:12:20,680 --> 01:12:24,000
Speaker 1: Persistently pursue work so personally satisfying that you would do

1419
01:12:24,040 --> 01:12:26,840
Speaker 1: it for free. I think we covered that. The importance

1420
01:12:26,840 --> 01:12:30,439
Speaker 1: of candor, I think we covered that. But the final

1421
01:12:31,080 --> 01:12:34,720
Speaker 1: piece of wisdom, when shit happens shine I.

1422
01:12:34,680 --> 01:12:38,480
Speaker 2: Think, which is like that's an original. That is our phraseology.

1423
01:12:38,680 --> 01:12:41,400
Speaker 2: The idea is like, and you can do this like

1424
01:12:41,600 --> 01:12:43,600
Speaker 2: that bad things are going to happen. It is so

1425
01:12:43,720 --> 01:12:45,960
Speaker 2: easy for me to be good or nice or kind

1426
01:12:46,040 --> 01:12:50,439
Speaker 2: or gracious when everything is awesome. It's really hard when

1427
01:12:50,439 --> 01:12:53,320
Speaker 2: shit hits the fan and like someone does something wrong

1428
01:12:53,439 --> 01:12:56,840
Speaker 2: or there's an awful situation, and that is the moment

1429
01:12:56,880 --> 01:12:59,559
Speaker 2: where you have to really think, Okay, how do I

1430
01:12:59,600 --> 01:13:03,200
Speaker 2: handle that this complicated situation in a way that like

1431
01:13:03,240 --> 01:13:05,160
Speaker 2: my kids would be proud if they were watching it,

1432
01:13:05,200 --> 01:13:08,000
Speaker 2: and that my employees, even if they don't like what

1433
01:13:08,040 --> 01:13:10,559
Speaker 2: we're going through, will say, man, that was handled well.

1434
01:13:10,800 --> 01:13:13,320
Speaker 2: And I so when we have these really bad situations,

1435
01:13:13,400 --> 01:13:15,920
Speaker 2: I almost think of myself as having this out of

1436
01:13:15,920 --> 01:13:19,879
Speaker 2: body experience and watching me, like how are you handling yourself?

1437
01:13:20,240 --> 01:13:22,200
Speaker 2: Because everyone's going to feed off of it. It goes

1438
01:13:22,200 --> 01:13:25,040
Speaker 2: to the contagious nature of leadership. Like people, if I'm

1439
01:13:25,720 --> 01:13:28,880
Speaker 2: fidgety and I'm angry, They're going to be fidgety and angry.

1440
01:13:28,880 --> 01:13:31,400
Speaker 2: Whereas like say, listen, this is bad, here's what's happening,

1441
01:13:31,640 --> 01:13:34,759
Speaker 2: here's how we're thinking about it. Once you have a decision,

1442
01:13:34,800 --> 01:13:36,760
Speaker 2: here is exactly what we're going to do and why

1443
01:13:36,840 --> 01:13:38,320
Speaker 2: we're doing it. And here's why. I know you're not

1444
01:13:38,360 --> 01:13:40,760
Speaker 2: going to like it, but this is why. But why

1445
01:13:40,760 --> 01:13:43,519
Speaker 2: I'm doing it and why I'm addressing the thing you

1446
01:13:43,520 --> 01:13:46,120
Speaker 2: don't like about it, and then you know you again.

1447
01:13:46,240 --> 01:13:48,080
Speaker 2: I think if you do these things, you get a

1448
01:13:48,080 --> 01:13:50,280
Speaker 2: lot better at it. It's like it's like riding a bike.

1449
01:13:50,439 --> 01:13:52,679
Speaker 2: You just have to do these things over and over.

1450
01:13:52,760 --> 01:13:55,200
Speaker 2: And then they go from, oh, I'm thinking about it too,

1451
01:13:55,240 --> 01:13:56,519
Speaker 2: it's just part of your fabric.

1452
01:13:56,600 --> 01:13:58,719
Speaker 1: There's another thing about shit and nibbling.

1453
01:13:59,160 --> 01:14:02,160
Speaker 2: What was that I stole that? That was it's not original,

1454
01:14:02,560 --> 01:14:04,559
Speaker 2: and I credited him was Ben Horowitz and the Hard

1455
01:14:04,600 --> 01:14:08,320
Speaker 2: Things about hard things. And he had this line that

1456
01:14:08,400 --> 01:14:10,120
Speaker 2: I stuck with me, which was like, when you got

1457
01:14:10,160 --> 01:14:12,840
Speaker 2: to eat shit, don't nibble, which his point was.

1458
01:14:13,520 --> 01:14:16,240
Speaker 1: That is a very gross It is a very gross.

1459
01:14:15,800 --> 01:14:18,479
Speaker 2: But when you think about the context, it's perfect because

1460
01:14:18,479 --> 01:14:21,640
Speaker 2: the whole idea is that you know that you have

1461
01:14:21,680 --> 01:14:23,280
Speaker 2: to fire someone, or you know you got to shut

1462
01:14:23,280 --> 01:14:25,120
Speaker 2: down a business, or you know you've got to get

1463
01:14:25,120 --> 01:14:28,599
Speaker 2: out that we have this tendency to just delay, delayed, delay,

1464
01:14:28,640 --> 01:14:31,240
Speaker 2: and his thing is like, just eat it. I can

1465
01:14:31,280 --> 01:14:33,560
Speaker 2: get out because you're going to do it eventually. And

1466
01:14:33,600 --> 01:14:36,040
Speaker 2: the quicker you get to fixing and the better.

1467
01:14:35,840 --> 01:14:39,160
Speaker 1: It is, well, I mean, again, I could stay here

1468
01:14:39,200 --> 01:14:42,000
Speaker 1: for hours. I love talking to both of you. The

1469
01:14:42,040 --> 01:14:45,680
Speaker 1: book is just the good stuff, no BS Secrets to

1470
01:14:45,760 --> 01:14:48,080
Speaker 1: success no matter what life throws at you. You know,

1471
01:14:48,120 --> 01:14:51,920
Speaker 1: We're having a retreat with our company later this week

1472
01:14:52,280 --> 01:14:55,120
Speaker 1: and I am going to support the author and I

1473
01:14:55,160 --> 01:14:58,760
Speaker 1: am going to buy forty copies of this yeahs you

1474
01:14:58,800 --> 01:15:02,519
Speaker 1: employees and and I think I'm going to also make

1475
01:15:02,600 --> 01:15:05,599
Speaker 1: them listen to this podcast.

1476
01:15:04,720 --> 01:15:09,200
Speaker 2: There will anyways, Yeah, we love it.

1477
01:15:09,280 --> 01:15:12,320
Speaker 1: But anyway, thank you guys so much. It was really fun. Love.

1478
01:15:12,960 --> 01:15:16,479
Speaker 3: Thank you for being a very very very early encourager supporter.

1479
01:15:16,680 --> 01:15:18,719
Speaker 1: Yes, by the way, I do deserve a little credit.

1480
01:15:18,800 --> 01:15:20,920
Speaker 1: I wasn't going to bring this up in Mike's origin

1481
01:15:21,040 --> 01:15:24,720
Speaker 1: story with I mean, do you want to share that Mike? Uh.

1482
01:15:25,080 --> 01:15:28,640
Speaker 3: Katie Kirk has always had great ideas, and one of

1483
01:15:28,640 --> 01:15:34,280
Speaker 3: her great ideas the origin of axios am the newsletter

1484
01:15:34,360 --> 01:15:39,439
Speaker 3: that I appreciate your reading every morning. That it started

1485
01:15:39,439 --> 01:15:42,479
Speaker 3: as an email that I wrote to my two bosses

1486
01:15:42,600 --> 01:15:46,479
Speaker 3: at Politico and it said in the subject line, how

1487
01:15:46,520 --> 01:15:47,679
Speaker 3: we can rock today?

1488
01:15:48,320 --> 01:15:52,400
Speaker 1: And then yes, and I started. So I was anchoring

1489
01:15:52,400 --> 01:15:55,960
Speaker 1: the CBS Evening News and Mike started sending me this

1490
01:15:56,120 --> 01:15:58,880
Speaker 1: email and I was like, oh, my god, this is

1491
01:15:58,920 --> 01:16:00,680
Speaker 1: so helpful. You remember how they used to have the

1492
01:16:00,760 --> 01:16:03,960
Speaker 1: ap playbook when you know, back in the dark ages,

1493
01:16:04,320 --> 01:16:06,920
Speaker 1: I was like, this is so great, so helpful. It

1494
01:16:07,040 --> 01:16:10,680
Speaker 1: sets the scene for the day, and you should make

1495
01:16:10,720 --> 01:16:13,639
Speaker 1: this available to so many people. They would pay for.

1496
01:16:13,560 --> 01:16:17,920
Speaker 2: This now look at us.

1497
01:16:19,160 --> 01:16:22,439
Speaker 1: So I feel a little bit pride of ownership with

1498
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Speaker 1: Mike's not really, but I do think you know, I

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01:16:27,040 --> 01:16:27,400
Speaker 1: was right.

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Speaker 3: When Katie Kirk has an idea, listen.

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01:16:33,080 --> 01:16:36,120
Speaker 1: To and when she has a bad idea, tell her.

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01:16:37,120 --> 01:16:42,400
Speaker 3: And I will bring candor but grace and and at

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01:16:42,400 --> 01:16:45,000
Speaker 3: the same time we will be always be respectful.

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01:16:45,200 --> 01:16:48,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, well and she won't care what we think. No, well, yes,

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01:16:48,680 --> 01:17:00,759
Speaker 1: I will working on that. Thanks guys, appreciate it. Thanks

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01:17:00,840 --> 01:17:03,720
Speaker 1: for listening. Everyone. If you have a question for me,

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01:17:04,120 --> 01:17:06,599
Speaker 1: a subject you want us to cover, or you want

1508
01:17:06,640 --> 01:17:10,000
Speaker 1: to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world,

1509
01:17:10,360 --> 01:17:13,280
Speaker 1: reach out. You can leave a short message at six

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01:17:13,439 --> 01:17:16,960
Speaker 1: h nine five point two five to five five, or

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01:17:17,000 --> 01:17:19,599
Speaker 1: you can send me a DM on Instagram. I would

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01:17:19,640 --> 01:17:22,679
Speaker 1: love to hear from you. Next Question is a production

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01:17:22,800 --> 01:17:27,280
Speaker 1: of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media. The executive producers are Me,

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01:17:27,600 --> 01:17:32,360
Speaker 1: Katie Kuric and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz,

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01:17:32,880 --> 01:17:37,759
Speaker 1: and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian

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01:17:37,840 --> 01:17:42,960
Speaker 1: Weller composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode,

1517
01:17:43,120 --> 01:17:45,519
Speaker 1: or to sign up for my newsletter, wake Up Call,

1518
01:17:45,960 --> 01:17:48,880
Speaker 1: go to the description in the podcast app, or visit

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01:17:48,960 --> 01:17:52,160
Speaker 1: us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also find me

1520
01:17:52,240 --> 01:17:55,920
Speaker 1: on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more

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01:17:56,000 --> 01:18:01,360
Speaker 1: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

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Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows,