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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: And welcome back to Coast to Coast George Nori with

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Speaker 2: you our special guest for the next couple hours. David

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Speaker 2: Ross Maren, PhD. Is the author of Thriving with Anxiety,

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Speaker 2: Nine Tools to Make Your Anxiety Work for You. He's

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Speaker 2: an associate professor at Harvard Medical School, a program director

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Speaker 2: at McLean Hospital, founder of the Center for Anxiety, which

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Speaker 2: provides services to more than a thousand patients in multiple states.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Ross maarn is an international expert on spirituality and

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Speaker 2: mental health whose work has been featured in Scientific American,

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Speaker 2: The Boston Globe, The Wall Street Journal, New York Times,

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Speaker 2: and Good Morning America. And here he is on Coast

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Speaker 2: to Coast. David, great to have you with us.

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Speaker 3: Hey, thanks for having me. Really nice to be here.

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Speaker 2: Hey, as we get into your book, Thriving with Anxiety,

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Speaker 2: give me your thoughts on anxiety.

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Speaker 1: Just what is it?

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Speaker 2: Is it a mental condition? Is it a physical condition?

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Speaker 3: What is it? Yeah? I'll the above their physical aspects,

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Speaker 3: their mental aspects. There's the way we think, the way

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Speaker 3: we feel, there's a physiological biological aspects to it. And

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Speaker 3: I'll tell you what's the hardest part today is that

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Speaker 3: the minute that anything makes us anxious, we start to

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Speaker 3: get upset about the fact that we feel anxious. That

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Speaker 3: to me is the worst part of it.

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Speaker 2: I had a friend of mine who's not with us anymore,

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Speaker 2: but he would do part time boxing announcing here in

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Speaker 2: Saint Louis, and you got here with an anxiety attack. Yep,

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Speaker 2: it was so bad they had to take him out.

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Speaker 2: What causes that? I mean, they just literally carried him

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Speaker 2: out of the state, out of the middle of the ring.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I thought you were being sort of You said

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Speaker 3: he was boxing and he had to be taken out,

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Speaker 3: so I thought you were being comingtable. I'll tell you

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Speaker 3: what often happens. You know, anxiety is the kind of

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Speaker 3: thing that happens all it's, you know, this disquietude, you have,

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Speaker 3: your heart starts thing, you got sweating, you're feeling uncomfortable,

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Speaker 3: you know, breathing gets constricted, and it's the kind of

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Speaker 3: thing that happens to everyone. And what typically makes it

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Speaker 3: worse is when we get upset about the fact that

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Speaker 3: we're feeling anxious. If you fight against your anxiety, that

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Speaker 3: is definitely going to make it worse. And usually an

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Speaker 3: anxiety attack occurs when people well try to fight against

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Speaker 3: it as opposed to leaning into it and letting it

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Speaker 3: happens for as long as it's going to happen.

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Speaker 2: Now, the title of your book is called Thriving with Anxiety,

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Speaker 2: So what does that?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, once we accept that anxiety is a part

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Speaker 3: of life, and it really is. I mean, ask yourself,

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Speaker 3: have you ever met somebody who hasn't had anxiety before? Right?

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Speaker 3: We medicalize the state and we turn this normal human

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Speaker 3: emotion into something that's a disease today, but that's really

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Speaker 3: not true. In fact, anxiety is very human and once

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Speaker 3: we accept that, well, we can actually use it to thrive.

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Speaker 3: But the first step is really accepting it, and that's

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Speaker 3: you know, that's that's typically that typically takes a bit

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Speaker 3: of a conversation to do.

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Speaker 2: For a lot of people who have anxiety, they actually

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Speaker 2: think they're going to have a heart attack, don't they.

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Speaker 3: Yep, that's very common. It's one of the most common

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Speaker 3: reasons why people go to yars, to the emergency room

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Speaker 3: is because they're having a panic attack and they feel

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Speaker 3: they're having a heart attack.

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Speaker 2: Now, Big Farmer, of course, has made these benzos and

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Speaker 2: recommending that the doctors prescribe them left and right. Do

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Speaker 2: they work?

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Speaker 3: Don't get me started on benzo Ninety two million prescriptions

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Speaker 3: for xanax alone. Just xanax let.

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Speaker 2: Alone, ninety two million.

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Speaker 3: Million prescriptions, and that's let, not not including klonipin, not

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Speaker 3: including value, not including adaban, you know, other major major drugs,

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Speaker 3: just xanax. It is out of control. The prescription rate

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Speaker 3: for anxiety for the benzada as a beams is something

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Speaker 3: that's real. I believe a public health.

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Speaker 2: Concerns can Can those pills hurt you?

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, that's an interesting question you asked if

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Speaker 3: they work. Part of the problem with benz is that

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Speaker 3: they do work. They shut down your anxiety right then

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Speaker 3: and there. But the problem is when you do that,

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Speaker 3: you really teach your body that you're unable to handle anxiety.

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Speaker 3: And the next time anxiety strikes, and it will because

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Speaker 3: while you're human, it's going to typically come back with

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Speaker 3: a vengeance.

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Speaker 2: Well, when we talk about anxiety itself, what makes it

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Speaker 2: kind of does it creep up on you or do

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Speaker 2: you wake up in the morning and you're uptight? How

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Speaker 2: does that come along?

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Speaker 3: Everyone's different, I mean Some people wake up in the

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Speaker 3: morning they feel all of a sudden, you're super anxious.

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Speaker 3: Some people wake up in the middle of the night

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Speaker 3: with panic attacks. They're called nocturnal panic attacks. Other people

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Speaker 3: it's a low grade anxiety throughout the day. And still

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Speaker 3: other people they're not typically that anxious, but when they

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Speaker 3: hit a stressful period in life, that's when it starts

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Speaker 3: to hit them.

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Speaker 2: Well, what David Rossmer, David, let's talk a little bit

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Speaker 2: about one of my favorite comedians who's not with us anymore,

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Speaker 2: Robin Williams. Sure he suffered from depression. Nobody knew that

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Speaker 2: except he and his wife, of course, and then he

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Speaker 2: ended up hanging himself and apparently he had what is

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Speaker 2: called Louis Body's disease, which is an effective your brain.

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Speaker 2: But I mean, what happened to the poor guy.

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Speaker 3: Well, firstly, it's very common for comedians in particular to

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Speaker 3: have high levels of anxiety and depressions. Okay, there are

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Speaker 3: plenty of comedians will come to our Center for Anxiety

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Speaker 3: Opposites over the years. Really and yeah, it's almost uncanny.

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Speaker 3: One of the reasons is because to be a really

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Speaker 3: solid comedian, you got to be on your toes you

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Speaker 3: have to be alert, you have to have your you know,

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Speaker 3: your adrenaline's got to be pumping. You need your fight

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Speaker 3: or flight system in order to guide you. I mean,

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Speaker 3: Robin Williams was a master of improv He used to

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Speaker 3: make up things on the spot, on the fly with

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Speaker 3: out he and you know, catching a breath, like the

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Speaker 3: joke was out of his mouth before he even prospersed.

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Speaker 3: It be one of the best, really one of the

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Speaker 3: world's were the most incredible, incredible comedians of all time.

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Speaker 3: And you can't have that level of performance as a

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Speaker 3: comedian without some level of distress. My understanding of what

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Speaker 3: happened at the end was that it really had to

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Speaker 3: do with this disease. You know, when he was diagnosed

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Speaker 3: with blue body disease, he just he didn't want He

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Speaker 3: knew what was going to happen to him over the

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Speaker 3: next couple of years, and he, you know, he didn't

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Speaker 3: want to deal with that. I don't think it was

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Speaker 3: because of long standing low grade or even high levels

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Speaker 3: of depression or anxiety, and I don't think it was

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Speaker 3: as much of an issue there. But then again, I

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Speaker 3: I don't really know the particular is the case. I

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Speaker 3: wasn't there. I don't know him personally.

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Speaker 2: Moreabouts in the brain does all this happen?

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Speaker 3: That's a good question. Well, you know, it's not only

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Speaker 3: in the brain. In fact, anxiety is mediated in many

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Speaker 3: ways by the adrenal glands renald glands, which released adrenaline

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Speaker 3: into the bloodstream, little glands, and they're personal hoppier kidneys.

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Speaker 3: If you want to talk about the brain, there's a

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Speaker 3: structure called the amygdala, and the amygdala is a mid

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Speaker 3: brain structure and when it receives a blood flow, or

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Speaker 3: i should say, when you perceive danger, When you.

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Speaker 2: Perceive a threat, that flight section right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we even call it fight flight or freeze because

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Speaker 3: some people have a freeze response, sort of like the

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Speaker 3: deer in the headlights thing. So that's also part of

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Speaker 3: the fighter flight or freeze in the system. And adrenaline

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Speaker 3: leaches into your doesn't leach, it actually just releases all

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Speaker 3: of a sudden into your bloodstream, and you have this

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Speaker 3: incredible series of responses which are all intended to keep

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Speaker 3: you safe, healthy and protected when there's a threat.

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Speaker 2: David, what got you interested in this subject?

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Speaker 3: Well, I've definitely had my share of anxiety myself, you know,

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Speaker 3: has all humans maybe a little bit more, you know,

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Speaker 3: living in the Northeast and you know, being very focused

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Speaker 3: on product activity and Harvard Medical School can be a

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Speaker 3: you know, a challenging environment. A good, great environment, but

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Speaker 3: a challenging environment stressful. So you know, that definitely was

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Speaker 3: a part of it. And I realized at some point

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Speaker 3: in my career that instead of trying to bury these feelings,

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Speaker 3: really embracing it, leaning into it and making this a

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Speaker 3: part of my life as opposed to trying to medicate

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Speaker 3: it away or see it seeing it as a disease

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Speaker 3: that have to be eradicated, was actually an extremely helpful thing.

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Speaker 3: And ever since then, well I've been trying to help

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Speaker 3: other people to do the same.

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Speaker 2: What triggers anxiety a lot of different.

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Speaker 3: Factors, Yeah, and it's very different for each person. So

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Speaker 3: whatever is going to get your goat, you know, that's

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Speaker 3: going to get your anxieties. For some people, it's money.

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Speaker 3: For some people, it's their health. For other people it's

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Speaker 3: the relationships. You know. For still other people, they're not

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Speaker 3: worried about any of stuff. They're worried about climate, they're

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Speaker 3: worried about politics, they're worried about whatever is. But usually

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Speaker 3: almost always people have something that's going to make the

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Speaker 3: make sure.

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Speaker 2: Can you feel it coming on?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, anxiety is very palpable, very clear when you're having it.

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Speaker 3: You know, hurt partly starts to go, you're breathingly, it

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Speaker 3: starts to increase. Some people feel a little bit of

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Speaker 3: stomach upset and that's because of the changes of the

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Speaker 3: digestive system that happen. People feel muscle tension, you know,

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Speaker 3: these are these are ubiquitous symptoms these days.

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Speaker 2: Is it sometimes what I will call subliminal where it

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Speaker 2: creeps up on you but you don't know why.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I've definitely seen that, and i've and I've I've

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Speaker 3: also experienced it myself. Or unless all of a sudden

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Speaker 3: you're feeling super anxious and it came out of nowhere,

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Speaker 3: to the out of the blue experience, you know, that's

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Speaker 3: like panic attacks. Panic attacks often happen out of the blue,

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Speaker 3: so to speak. So yeah, it just certainly can be

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Speaker 3: in some ways subliminal.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, would a panic attack be considered anxiety? I guess

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Speaker 2: I would?

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Speaker 3: You were sure? Sure? Sure? A panic attack is very

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Speaker 3: much a an example of anxiety. It's a sudden surge

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Speaker 3: of intense anxiety that peaks within about five to ten minutes,

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Speaker 3: and if we don't fight it, it will actually end.

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Speaker 3: If we do fight it, it can last a lot longer.

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Speaker 2: What do you mean by fighting, Well, I mean to

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Speaker 2: fight it is.

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Speaker 3: You know, the most counterintuitive thing to do, but it's

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Speaker 3: also the best. When you feel anxious, when you feel

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Speaker 3: panic attack coming on, is to actually let it happen,

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Speaker 3: what we call leaning into leaning into the distress, allow

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Speaker 3: yourself to feel the panic. It's very uncomfortable, but you know,

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Speaker 3: the intuitive thing to do, which is usually not helpful,

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Speaker 3: is to try to squelch those feelings, to try to

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Speaker 3: stop it, to try to contain it, try to decrease it,

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Speaker 3: try to not let it get out of hand. You know,

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Speaker 3: that's that's the opposite of what I'm suggesting, which is

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Speaker 3: letting it ride, just letting it happen.

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Speaker 2: Do children get anxiety attacks and panic attacks? So we

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Speaker 2: just don't know what his parents.

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Speaker 3: You know, kids definitely can get panic attacks. Yeah, yes,

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Speaker 3: it's not. It's not uncommon at all. And often what

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Speaker 3: terms those panic attacks in the panic disorder is when

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Speaker 3: parents get really freaked out about the kids fact that

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Speaker 3: their kids are feeling anxious as opposed to recognizing that

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Speaker 3: anxiety is something that really just happens to people, and

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Speaker 3: that's okay, David.

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Speaker 2: When somebody, let's say, gets out of a possible accident,

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Speaker 2: a car accident, they don't get into it, but they

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Speaker 2: almost did. But when they're done with it, it's like

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Speaker 2: one of those oh my god, oh my god, is

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Speaker 2: that a panic attack.

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Speaker 3: It's a great question. It could lead to a panic attack.

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Speaker 3: That's that's possible. Sometimes people have during a stressor like

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Speaker 3: a you know, almost I near myss like you said,

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Speaker 3: near mess accident, or they're going through a really difficult time,

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Speaker 3: they're actually able to maintain focus, They're able to you know,

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Speaker 3: maintain a mental set, they're able to stop the anxiety

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Speaker 3: from getting out of control, so to speak. And then

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Speaker 3: all of a sudden, when the stressor is over, that's

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Speaker 3: when it hits. So we've definitely seen that plenty in

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Speaker 3: the clinic. And it's not necessarily a panic attack. It

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Speaker 3: could be you know, other forms of anxiety that manifest

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Speaker 3: but yeah, sometimes anxiety. I think one of the reasons

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Speaker 3: this happens, interestingly, is when you're in the middle of

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Speaker 3: a struggle, you expect to feel anxious. When the struggle

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Speaker 3: is over, you don't expect to feel anxious anymore. At

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Speaker 3: that point. If you're feeling anxious, then you're like, oh,

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Speaker 3: now something's really wrong, and that's when the anxiety really

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Speaker 3: takes it.

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