WEBVTT - Will Jury Hear About George Floyd's Prior Arrest? 0:00:03.080 --> 0:00:08.280 You're listening to Bloomberg Law with June Grasso from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:12.119 --> 0:00:15.760 Jury selection continues in the trial of former Minneapolis police 0:00:15.760 --> 0:00:19.600 officer Derek Chauvin for the death of George Floyd, despite 0:00:19.680 --> 0:00:23.720 concerns that the unprecedented twenty seven million dollars settlement with 0:00:23.800 --> 0:00:28.520 Floyd's family would taint the jurisperceptions. The defense attorney argued 0:00:28.560 --> 0:00:31.800 that the city's unusual decision to announce the settlement just 0:00:32.000 --> 0:00:35.479 as the criminal trial begins could prevent Chauvin from receiving 0:00:35.520 --> 0:00:38.559 a fair trial. The judge has yet to decide on 0:00:38.600 --> 0:00:41.520 the defense attorney's renewed motion to move the trial out 0:00:41.520 --> 0:00:45.280 of Minneapolis, and both sides clashed today over how much 0:00:45.320 --> 0:00:48.280 the jury should hear of Floyd's own actions during a 0:00:48.360 --> 0:00:52.840 drug arrest. In joining me is Krista Groshek, a former 0:00:52.920 --> 0:00:57.640 public defender and managing attorney of Groshek Law in Minneapolis, Christa. 0:00:57.680 --> 0:01:01.360 How unusual is it to have a civil settlement before 0:01:01.360 --> 0:01:05.119 a criminal trial. It's extraordinarily unusual. In fact, I don't 0:01:05.120 --> 0:01:08.000 think it's ever happened in Minnesota. The cases that I 0:01:08.040 --> 0:01:10.959 am familiar with and some other ones that I um 0:01:10.959 --> 0:01:13.920 looked up all perceived in the same way. The criminal 0:01:14.160 --> 0:01:16.959 case goes to trial first and then the civil case 0:01:17.000 --> 0:01:22.640 gets judicated. So this is extraordinarily strange. And you know, 0:01:23.319 --> 0:01:25.440 it's been sort of postulated that there's a fair amount 0:01:25.480 --> 0:01:28.680 of manipulation and maneuvering with some of these things, and 0:01:28.720 --> 0:01:31.760 I don't know how one gets past that idea when 0:01:31.760 --> 0:01:36.319 you see this settlement occurring. In jury selection now on 0:01:36.319 --> 0:01:38.880 one hand, at least to the curred in jury selection 0:01:39.040 --> 0:01:41.640 right for sure. If it hadn't, I don't know how 0:01:41.680 --> 0:01:44.000 they could move forward. I think a mistrial motion would 0:01:44.000 --> 0:01:47.039 have been granted. But this has never happened before, and 0:01:47.400 --> 0:01:49.840 we've never had a settlement of this size before. I 0:01:49.840 --> 0:01:53.800 mean this, this is an astronomical settlement. Explain why the 0:01:53.840 --> 0:01:59.080 news of the settlement might prejudice the jury. It is 0:01:59.120 --> 0:02:02.760 a very very difficult things to get jurors to understand 0:02:02.800 --> 0:02:06.040 the difference between you know, different kinds of litigation in cases, 0:02:06.120 --> 0:02:09.160 especially what it involves the same set of facts. I think, 0:02:09.200 --> 0:02:11.399 for example, with the O J. Case, Ray was acquitted 0:02:11.440 --> 0:02:14.000 but then later paid the family a large civil settlement. 0:02:14.200 --> 0:02:16.800 There was a number of people who once they saw 0:02:16.880 --> 0:02:19.040 that went oh well of course, because he was guilty, right, 0:02:19.080 --> 0:02:21.200 So so the same inference flies there that I think 0:02:21.280 --> 0:02:23.520 is likely to apply here. I don't know how a 0:02:23.600 --> 0:02:27.200 jury can conceptually wrap their head around that, especially because 0:02:27.600 --> 0:02:29.520 the most information they're going to be given about the 0:02:29.560 --> 0:02:32.240 civil case is in jury selection, and the courts like 0:02:32.520 --> 0:02:36.639 it's civil, different standards of proof, different lawyers write, different 0:02:36.639 --> 0:02:40.080 courts state versus federal. Don't worry yourself about that. I 0:02:40.120 --> 0:02:43.200 don't think that is enough of an explanation for them 0:02:43.240 --> 0:02:45.560 to hang their hats on to go, yeah, you're right, 0:02:45.880 --> 0:02:48.280 I'm just going to disregard the fact that that happened 0:02:48.480 --> 0:02:51.359 is hugely prejudicial to the defense, and in fact, it's 0:02:51.400 --> 0:02:54.639 kind of ridiculous. Um, I think at best, if you're responsible. 0:02:55.240 --> 0:02:58.359 What's interesting is Keith Ellison as our Minnesota Attorney General, 0:02:58.919 --> 0:03:02.200 and his office is executing Derek Chauvin. His son is 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:06.400 on the Minneapolis City Council that awarded this large civil settlement. 0:03:06.880 --> 0:03:09.840 When Keith Ellison was asked if he knew about the 0:03:09.880 --> 0:03:13.280 settlement prior to it being announced, his answer was no comment. 0:03:14.120 --> 0:03:17.680 Benjamin Crump, the family's attorney, has said, well, it's the 0:03:17.720 --> 0:03:22.079 family's Seventh Amendment right and also that the publicity about 0:03:22.080 --> 0:03:26.600 the settlement is slight compared to the publicity about George 0:03:26.639 --> 0:03:31.440 Floyd's death. I think that's a ridiculous assertion. Let's see 0:03:31.560 --> 0:03:33.799 it in the Seventh Amendment. So people have a right 0:03:33.880 --> 0:03:39.080 to you know, have their controversies examined in court and settled. Okay, 0:03:39.120 --> 0:03:42.760 we know that. But you know certainly that talks about 0:03:43.160 --> 0:03:46.280 dollar settlements. Right, this is about money. This is about 0:03:46.600 --> 0:03:50.320 Savin's fighting for his liberty, his life, his reputation. And 0:03:50.560 --> 0:03:52.560 you know, I don't so much just blame the family, 0:03:52.600 --> 0:03:54.800 and I don't blame Crump. Fine, you know, he's going 0:03:54.840 --> 0:03:57.080 to push for whatever leverage he can get at whatever 0:03:57.080 --> 0:03:59.000 time he can get it. He can do that. There's 0:03:59.000 --> 0:04:01.400 something wrong with him doing out. Lawyers positioned themselves all 0:04:01.400 --> 0:04:03.080 the time, right, it's our job to do that. He 0:04:03.160 --> 0:04:06.280 positioned his clients well, and he got, you know, a 0:04:06.360 --> 0:04:08.760 great settlement to them. So I don't think the family 0:04:08.800 --> 0:04:11.400 is doing anything wrong. I think the city was irresponsible. 0:04:11.840 --> 0:04:15.320 I mean, the city, you know, in theory to want 0:04:15.400 --> 0:04:17.280 all of its citizens to have a fair trial. I 0:04:17.360 --> 0:04:19.520 understand they also want their citizens not to be victims 0:04:19.560 --> 0:04:21.919 of what they believe was police brutality, et cetera. But 0:04:21.960 --> 0:04:24.000 there's a time and a place to figure that out 0:04:24.480 --> 0:04:27.320 and still afford the person on trial of fair trial. 0:04:27.839 --> 0:04:30.320 I think the city government is to blame, and Jacob 0:04:30.400 --> 0:04:32.520 Fry is that's part of it. He's our mayor. And 0:04:32.560 --> 0:04:36.400 he opened his huge mouth shortly after this video footage 0:04:36.400 --> 0:04:38.640 came out and he said he think said Derek Scholwen 0:04:38.720 --> 0:04:42.600 and his cap you know colleagues are all guilty. And 0:04:42.680 --> 0:04:45.680 he fired him without pay, you know or whatever. His 0:04:46.120 --> 0:04:48.680 police aren't fired him without pay, and he publicized it 0:04:48.760 --> 0:04:51.240 then so did our governor, so the chief of police. 0:04:51.240 --> 0:04:54.120 I mean, these guys have engaged in this pattern of 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:57.720 irresponsibility since the beginning, and frankly, my opinion, they should 0:04:57.720 --> 0:05:01.120 be ashamed. When this was first brought up by the defense, 0:05:01.680 --> 0:05:05.240 the judge seemed to indicate that, yes, you know, this 0:05:05.480 --> 0:05:08.520 was a concern that there might be a problem. He 0:05:08.640 --> 0:05:12.279 called back some of the jurors and requestioned them and 0:05:12.320 --> 0:05:16.039 got rid of two. But it seems as if it's 0:05:16.040 --> 0:05:18.960 going to be very hard to move the trial, to 0:05:19.040 --> 0:05:23.200 get him to move the trial out of Minneapolis once 0:05:23.600 --> 0:05:27.640 jury selections already started. So this judge is a guy 0:05:27.800 --> 0:05:30.400 on a mission. And he approaches all of his cases 0:05:30.440 --> 0:05:32.520 the way I've I've tried cases in front of him. 0:05:32.600 --> 0:05:34.679 When you're set for trial, you go trial. He keeps 0:05:34.720 --> 0:05:37.640 cases moving. He doesn't allow for a lot of what 0:05:37.680 --> 0:05:41.360 I would call d aliensis or timely thing in jury selection. 0:05:41.400 --> 0:05:43.240 Some judges are more liberal about it. You can really 0:05:43.279 --> 0:05:45.240 get to know your jury is more. He doesn't really 0:05:45.279 --> 0:05:47.520 allow for a lot of that. He takes the reins 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:49.520 like he did when he brought the seven jurors back, 0:05:49.920 --> 0:05:52.559 so frequently asked questions, so kind of hurry lawyers along. 0:05:52.920 --> 0:05:55.279 He wants cases to move. And you know the city 0:05:55.279 --> 0:05:58.799 has spent millions of dollars and getting this case ready 0:05:58.880 --> 0:06:03.400 to try. From your additional officers, snipers that sit on 0:06:03.440 --> 0:06:06.080 the roof, you know, there's no court trials and jury 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:08.800 trials happening in Hennison County. Yellow. They might add one 0:06:08.839 --> 0:06:11.320 more for some reason, but that was the plan. The 0:06:11.400 --> 0:06:15.919 Chauvin trial gets the whole courthouse, twenty six floors and 0:06:16.040 --> 0:06:19.600 twenty six things for courtrooms a piece. Hundreds of court 0:06:19.640 --> 0:06:22.680 hearings are shut down because of Chauvin. And so I 0:06:22.680 --> 0:06:24.720 think he's on a mission. He's gonna try to make 0:06:24.760 --> 0:06:26.960 that happen, and you know, he's kind of in a pickle. 0:06:27.360 --> 0:06:29.919 This is out there now, right, and so it's time 0:06:30.000 --> 0:06:31.600 going to cure it and people really going to forget 0:06:31.600 --> 0:06:34.080 about it. I don't know. I think that's unlikely. So 0:06:34.080 --> 0:06:37.039 I don't think it continue would really helps. Maybe it's 0:06:37.080 --> 0:06:39.760 a greater likelihood that people outstate, you know, living in 0:06:39.880 --> 0:06:42.440 rural areas are less engaged and I'm not watching the 0:06:42.440 --> 0:06:44.760 trial every day like we are here in Minneapolis. I 0:06:44.920 --> 0:06:46.919 personally thought from the beginning that would have been the 0:06:47.000 --> 0:06:49.479 right move, you know, moved this trial out states. But 0:06:49.640 --> 0:06:52.200 you know, there's a lot of advantages that come to 0:06:52.640 --> 0:06:54.599 the defense if you move without state. It tends to 0:06:54.640 --> 0:06:56.920 be that people who live in rural areas. I'm more 0:06:56.920 --> 0:06:59.479 pro police, so I think the other thing the court 0:06:59.560 --> 0:07:02.960 thought and of security. I mean, Henneton County has state 0:07:03.000 --> 0:07:04.719 of the art everything, and so they'd be in a 0:07:04.720 --> 0:07:09.440 better position people wise, and security from electronics, you know, 0:07:09.560 --> 0:07:12.280 contraptions that they used to monitor and watch people. He 0:07:12.360 --> 0:07:15.080 thought that could do it better there. But he's in 0:07:15.080 --> 0:07:16.680 a bad spot. What do you do? It's out there, 0:07:16.960 --> 0:07:19.360 and so now he's got to determine if the lawyers 0:07:19.520 --> 0:07:22.240 can answers questions to get to the heart of but 0:07:22.400 --> 0:07:24.520 not they're biased. And whether or not he's got a 0:07:24.520 --> 0:07:26.960 bias or poison pool, that's what he's got to figure out, 0:07:27.280 --> 0:07:28.920 and that's going to take time. So I wouldn't say 0:07:28.920 --> 0:07:30.840 it's out of the question, but it does seem like 0:07:30.880 --> 0:07:32.920 if he can push through, he will, and that's consistent 0:07:32.960 --> 0:07:35.400 with what I know of Judge k. Hill. Let's talk 0:07:35.400 --> 0:07:38.520 about some of the motions that are pending. The defense 0:07:38.560 --> 0:07:41.760 wants to tell the jury about Floyd's arrest for drugs 0:07:41.840 --> 0:07:45.720 in how likely is it that the judge will allow 0:07:45.760 --> 0:07:48.920 that evidence? In the difference between the defense bringing the 0:07:48.960 --> 0:07:51.280 motion in the past and now is that. It's my 0:07:51.360 --> 0:07:54.840 understanding that the defense was recently disclosed about a thousand 0:07:54.880 --> 0:07:59.160 pages of additional information, some of which included details about 0:07:59.360 --> 0:08:04.080 that arrest and in particular what Mr Floyd was told 0:08:04.240 --> 0:08:07.720 about his use of opioids at that arrest, and I 0:08:07.760 --> 0:08:10.200 think jud Candle is really interested in it. The new 0:08:10.200 --> 0:08:13.160 information showed that he behaved almost identically to how he 0:08:13.280 --> 0:08:16.320 did in the case that's being tried, you know, saying 0:08:16.320 --> 0:08:19.640 he couldn't breathe calling out for his mama, claiming to 0:08:19.680 --> 0:08:22.840 be disabled. What they saw was, you know, he was 0:08:22.880 --> 0:08:25.640 literally eating chewing drugs in front of them because they 0:08:25.720 --> 0:08:27.960 I guess, I've made an arrest for possession or styles 0:08:28.000 --> 0:08:31.280 of controlled substances, and so he's shotting, you know, handfuls 0:08:31.320 --> 0:08:34.800 of sentinel pills into his mouth. What they found when 0:08:34.840 --> 0:08:37.120 they took him to the hospital later to claiming again 0:08:37.120 --> 0:08:40.640 of having troubled breathing, is that he hadn't ingested so 0:08:40.720 --> 0:08:42.720 much opioid that he was at risk then for a 0:08:42.720 --> 0:08:44.920 heart attack, and he was told that then, and so 0:08:45.040 --> 0:08:49.120 this becomes evidence that particularly relevant to the defenses theory 0:08:49.559 --> 0:08:51.960 of causation, right that it was the drugs, or it 0:08:52.000 --> 0:08:55.240 was the covid, or it was other health condition like 0:08:55.320 --> 0:08:58.760 you know, being prone to heart disease, whatever that caused 0:08:58.760 --> 0:09:01.080 his death, not the the knee on the neck. And 0:09:01.160 --> 0:09:04.560 so typically speaking, this kind of evidence is called alternative 0:09:04.559 --> 0:09:08.160 perpetrator evidence. Judge keeps calling it reverse fregal. So that's 0:09:08.160 --> 0:09:10.800 where a defense attorney would say, hey, you know, my 0:09:10.840 --> 0:09:12.800 clients didn't shoot him, this other guy did. Well, we 0:09:12.800 --> 0:09:15.200 know nobody else had their knee on neck. And so 0:09:15.360 --> 0:09:19.080 what it is is this is an alternative cause type argument. 0:09:19.120 --> 0:09:20.959 So it's kind of a creative way to look at 0:09:21.040 --> 0:09:24.800 that legal tool, if you will, or theory. And I 0:09:24.840 --> 0:09:27.200 think the judge is really interested in letting the defense 0:09:27.240 --> 0:09:29.559 introduce at least a part of that because it bolsters 0:09:29.600 --> 0:09:32.240 their causation theory. And it sounds to me if he 0:09:32.280 --> 0:09:34.680 does let it in, he'll create a very nuanced order 0:09:34.720 --> 0:09:36.400 that says you can let this in but not that in. 0:09:36.480 --> 0:09:38.240 If you step over here, then that's going to be 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:40.400 a problem because the other side can introduce that. But 0:09:40.480 --> 0:09:43.360 I think he's particularly interested in giving the defense at 0:09:43.440 --> 0:09:46.880 least an opportunity to present some of that. The prosecutor 0:09:47.120 --> 0:09:49.880 said that the defense is doing a full on trial 0:09:49.960 --> 0:09:53.600 of George Floyd who's not on trial. Doesn't that happen 0:09:53.679 --> 0:09:57.520 frequently in criminal cases the defense tries to bring in 0:09:57.520 --> 0:10:02.360 information that may not be helpful to the victim. You're 0:10:02.400 --> 0:10:05.240 exactly right. You know, there's limits to when and how 0:10:05.320 --> 0:10:08.360 we do that, for example, in a rape case as 0:10:08.360 --> 0:10:10.760 the rape shield. So you know, if my theory of 0:10:10.800 --> 0:10:14.240 the cases, she was you know, or he was quote 0:10:14.320 --> 0:10:17.960 unquote consenting, or the one who invited the encounter. And 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:19.400 I want to point to the fact that they do 0:10:19.480 --> 0:10:21.800 this on a regular basis this is a pattern. I 0:10:21.880 --> 0:10:24.640 might have difficulty doing that. But if I want to 0:10:24.679 --> 0:10:29.120 introduce evidence that my client was setting this person up, 0:10:29.200 --> 0:10:32.120 because when they claimed right before and they set somebody 0:10:32.160 --> 0:10:35.800 else up with fault allegations, you know, this becomes that 0:10:36.000 --> 0:10:38.679 victim's modus operandi and it supports my claim that the 0:10:38.760 --> 0:10:42.240 charges are fault. So character evidence isn't typically admitted, but 0:10:42.240 --> 0:10:44.840 if you can fit it into an exception like modus 0:10:44.840 --> 0:10:47.680 operandi appsence of mistake, right, you can get it in 0:10:47.800 --> 0:10:50.880 typically speaking, And this is where this trial has sort 0:10:50.920 --> 0:10:54.199 of turned on its head. Is that productive trying to 0:10:54.240 --> 0:10:57.240 introduce this stuff on defense? They try to dirty up 0:10:57.240 --> 0:10:59.240 the defendant by saying, well, this is what he always does, 0:10:59.360 --> 0:11:03.880 right know. Reverse freetel allows the defense to introduce this 0:11:04.720 --> 0:11:08.280 as to alternative perpetrators, and now this judge is saying 0:11:08.320 --> 0:11:11.960 it also applies to alternative causes. You know, I don't 0:11:11.960 --> 0:11:14.800 know how much we're really dirtying up George Floyd's character 0:11:15.480 --> 0:11:18.960 with regard to allege drug use, because we know from 0:11:19.160 --> 0:11:21.480 the incident, you know, in the case that we're trying, 0:11:21.720 --> 0:11:23.760 he had enough sent and on a system you know, 0:11:24.120 --> 0:11:26.600 I could kill him. That's already out there, it is 0:11:26.640 --> 0:11:29.120 what it is. Do you think that in the end 0:11:29.360 --> 0:11:31.960 that it's going to be the jurors looking at that 0:11:32.120 --> 0:11:34.920 video for nine minutes and how hard is it to 0:11:35.000 --> 0:11:39.199 overcome that? In some ways as good that that video 0:11:39.240 --> 0:11:41.920 went viral when it did, because everybody's seen it were 0:11:41.960 --> 0:11:46.000 sort of desensitized to it right to a degree, you know. 0:11:46.080 --> 0:11:48.640 I mean the first time I watched it, you know, uh, 0:11:48.800 --> 0:11:50.480 it made me tear up, you know, the second or 0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:53.840 third time, right, you just get more used to the 0:11:53.880 --> 0:11:57.360 fact that that's what happened. I think, um, what the 0:11:57.400 --> 0:11:59.240 defense will try to do is place a lot of 0:11:59.240 --> 0:12:02.720 emphasis on their experts, who are going to say, yeah, 0:12:02.840 --> 0:12:06.280 I you know, I see the video, but when I 0:12:06.320 --> 0:12:09.839 look at the forensic evidence, there is no merit to 0:12:09.880 --> 0:12:12.320 the contention that the knee on the neck is what 0:12:12.440 --> 0:12:15.600 killed him. And so you know, really working hard to 0:12:15.640 --> 0:12:18.480 take emotion out of that. And I think the defense 0:12:18.480 --> 0:12:21.200 will be sensible and argue, look, we're not saying this 0:12:21.320 --> 0:12:24.240 is like great police behavior. We're not even saying that, 0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:27.280 you know, this was probably the best choice to make, 0:12:27.520 --> 0:12:29.959 but it's not criminal, right, we can we we cannot 0:12:30.000 --> 0:12:32.600 like this, we can you know, want things to be 0:12:32.679 --> 0:12:35.400 different in the future. Right. We know there's some laws 0:12:35.440 --> 0:12:39.480 pass will address that, but this isn't criminal because remember, 0:12:39.480 --> 0:12:41.560 in order for Chauvin to be guilty, he had to 0:12:41.559 --> 0:12:44.440 have caused the death, and in light of everything else 0:12:44.520 --> 0:12:47.400 that Floyd had going on, you know, in his body literally, 0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:51.080 the state just can't prove that. So we cannot like this, 0:12:51.280 --> 0:12:53.840 and we can believe that change is warranted, right and 0:12:53.960 --> 0:12:58.280 rules and regulations, um, But that doesn't mean that Chauvin's guilty. 0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:03.360 Thanks Krista. That's Krista Grosscheck, managing attorney of gros Check Law. 0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:07.800 There are some surprising results in the latest jobs data 0:13:07.960 --> 0:13:11.800 concerning men who have graduate and professional credentials. Joining me 0:13:11.840 --> 0:13:16.280 is Bloomberg opinion columnist Justin Fox. Justin people usually think 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:19.440 the more education you have, the better your job is. 0:13:20.040 --> 0:13:23.520 What do the stats show? They show that that's generally true. 0:13:24.040 --> 0:13:27.000 I mean pretty much across the board, if you have 0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:31.400 more education, you're both more likely to be employed and 0:13:31.800 --> 0:13:35.440 your wages are higher. But I was looking at the 0:13:35.559 --> 0:13:40.640 February job data for various things, especially comparing men and 0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:43.280 women in different categories and how they have fared over 0:13:43.320 --> 0:13:46.040 the past here, and I noticed, I mean, it's been 0:13:46.080 --> 0:13:48.560 happening for a few years. It turned out that men 0:13:48.880 --> 0:13:52.800 who just have a bachelor's degree have a higher employment rate, 0:13:52.840 --> 0:13:55.560 a higher percentage of all of them have jobs than 0:13:55.640 --> 0:13:59.000 men who have an advanced degree. And that's nothing like 0:13:59.040 --> 0:14:01.640 that that I know of anywhere else in the statistics 0:14:01.640 --> 0:14:05.200 where more education results in less employment. They've only been 0:14:05.200 --> 0:14:08.840 releasing those statistics in two thousand fifteen, and it's been 0:14:08.880 --> 0:14:12.600 true almost every month since then. Just to clarify, it's 0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:17.760 not true with women. Correct, Women who um have advanced 0:14:17.760 --> 0:14:20.760 degrees are more likely to have jobs than women with 0:14:20.920 --> 0:14:24.440 just a bachelor's degree. What's the percentage of men in 0:14:24.520 --> 0:14:31.720 the population who have graduate or professional degrees. Researchers looked 0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:35.000 into this. I can't say for certain not, but I 0:14:35.160 --> 0:14:37.680 checked in with a couple of people who've done work 0:14:37.880 --> 0:14:42.360 on both sociologists actually have done work on gender and 0:14:42.560 --> 0:14:47.480 education and employment, and neither of them had ever noticed 0:14:47.480 --> 0:14:49.520 this before, although one of them now wants to look 0:14:49.520 --> 0:14:53.840 into it. And what can we attribute this to, I mean, 0:14:54.320 --> 0:14:58.280 possibly nothing at all. It's just it's a pretty small difference, 0:14:58.720 --> 0:15:01.480 and you know, it might not be any big deal. 0:15:01.600 --> 0:15:05.440 I guess the things that sort of we're going around 0:15:05.480 --> 0:15:07.600 in my head and with a couple of people I 0:15:07.680 --> 0:15:12.560 talked to were One possibility is because in the pay data, 0:15:12.600 --> 0:15:16.040 which doesn't come out quite as frequently, but men with 0:15:16.080 --> 0:15:20.800 advanced degrees, especially professional degrees like MBAs, they make more 0:15:20.840 --> 0:15:25.480 money than anybody else, and so it's not like this 0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:30.160 is some disadvantaged, struggling group. So it might be that 0:15:30.400 --> 0:15:32.760 a bunch of them just quit their job made so 0:15:32.840 --> 0:15:34.880 much money that they've dropped out of the labor force. 0:15:35.320 --> 0:15:37.800 Another one that has but suggested to be by a 0:15:37.840 --> 0:15:39.960 couple of people since the thing we've published, is that 0:15:40.080 --> 0:15:42.920 men with advanced degrees are more likely to be married 0:15:42.960 --> 0:15:46.120 to her success women, and you know, might have dropped 0:15:46.120 --> 0:15:48.480 out of their labor force because their wife has become 0:15:48.520 --> 0:15:51.840 a ceo UM. The only thing is that it's just 0:15:51.880 --> 0:15:54.680 a little harder to imagine that those numbers of people 0:15:54.720 --> 0:15:57.360 are so large that they can really affect this. It's 0:15:57.440 --> 0:16:00.160 like that, although once again the number of men with 0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:04.040 advanced degrees is pretty large too. So basically number one 0:16:04.200 --> 0:16:08.320 answer to why this discrimancy is there is probably not 0:16:08.840 --> 0:16:11.400 a big deal, maybe a kirk of the data, maybe 0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:15.160 having to do with some risks dropping out. But the 0:16:15.160 --> 0:16:17.920 other thing that I've watched over the last couple of 0:16:17.960 --> 0:16:22.600 years i've looked at education data, is men really are 0:16:22.880 --> 0:16:26.160 becoming much less likely than women to get degrees of 0:16:26.240 --> 0:16:29.320 pretty much any sort. I mean, it's been true for 0:16:29.520 --> 0:16:34.400 undergraduate degrees since the seventies, graduate school enrollment overall, since 0:16:35.680 --> 0:16:37.800 law school. It just happened a couple of years ago, 0:16:38.200 --> 0:16:42.680 two thousand sixteen, that women became the majority of law students, 0:16:42.760 --> 0:16:45.360 And the most recent data is from the fall of 0:16:45.360 --> 0:16:48.520 two thousand eighteen, women made up fifty six percent of 0:16:48.600 --> 0:16:52.320 undergraduate in sixty of graduate students. There are studies done 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:56.200 of like like the highest prestige PhD programs, they're still 0:16:56.200 --> 0:16:59.120 dominated by men, the highest paying jobs, and laws still 0:16:59.160 --> 0:17:02.960 dominated by and but you look at the fields where 0:17:03.000 --> 0:17:06.399 women sort of dominate the graduate degree, and a lot 0:17:06.480 --> 0:17:08.679 of them they're not super high paid, but they're super 0:17:08.720 --> 0:17:14.240 low unemployment rates, like nursing and education, And so maybe 0:17:14.280 --> 0:17:17.880 there's something actually going on there where women are doing 0:17:17.960 --> 0:17:22.480 a somewhat better job of targeting their education for employment. 0:17:22.560 --> 0:17:27.240 Although the one caveat there is still overall, across most 0:17:27.880 --> 0:17:32.399 different groups by education and race and a lot women 0:17:32.440 --> 0:17:35.520 are less likely to be employed than men are partly 0:17:35.680 --> 0:17:39.080 just because they tend to get stuck with care responsibilities 0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:41.920 for kids and other relatives that men used to don't. 0:17:42.280 --> 0:17:46.520 What did you learn about law school and lawyers? I mean, 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:50.360 basically law school had sort of resisted the trend towards 0:17:50.440 --> 0:17:54.800 being majority women that other a lot of other programs had, 0:17:54.840 --> 0:17:59.760 but it finally and and it definitely has been a 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:03.600 bee in some quarters that Trump getting elected, although I 0:18:03.640 --> 0:18:05.800 can't really explain why it would have happened in two 0:18:05.840 --> 0:18:09.520 thousand sixteen, but basically a lot of women, we're sort 0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:13.520 of strongly motivated to act and look for ways to 0:18:13.600 --> 0:18:16.280 fight for their own rights and other people's rights, and 0:18:16.359 --> 0:18:19.119 that that had driven this bump in law school admissions, 0:18:19.160 --> 0:18:22.080 because I mean, law school applications have been following for 0:18:22.560 --> 0:18:25.720 a long time and they finally sort of bottomed out 0:18:25.760 --> 0:18:28.399 and bounced back a little bit over the last five years. 0:18:28.800 --> 0:18:31.600 It's women that are driving that, not men. And what 0:18:31.720 --> 0:18:36.280 about the earnings of men and women? I mean, in general, 0:18:36.320 --> 0:18:39.760 they're higher for men were just about everything they have 0:18:40.040 --> 0:18:44.280 annual censusy with those annual data, and basically, you know, 0:18:44.280 --> 0:18:47.879 the highest earnings group by education as men with professional 0:18:47.880 --> 0:18:51.600 degrees who have median earnings of a hundred thirty six 0:18:51.640 --> 0:18:55.439 thousand in two thousand nineteen, and women with professional degrees 0:18:55.480 --> 0:18:58.800 have median earnings of eighty eight thousand, three one, so 0:18:58.920 --> 0:19:02.640 a lot different and those with just bachelor's degree. It's 0:19:02.640 --> 0:19:08.240 actually a smaller gap for men as for women. Thanks 0:19:08.359 --> 0:19:14.440 Justin That's Bloomberg opinion columnist Justin Fox. Jones day system 0:19:14.480 --> 0:19:17.600 for paying attorneys is so mysterious that some have dubbed 0:19:17.600 --> 0:19:21.000 it a black box, but five lawyers who claimed the 0:19:21.000 --> 0:19:25.320 black box waters down women lawyers compensation recently dropped their 0:19:25.400 --> 0:19:28.520 lawsuit against the firm. The women had alleged that paid 0:19:28.560 --> 0:19:33.200 decisions are controlled exclusively by jones Day's managing partner based 0:19:33.240 --> 0:19:37.280 on subjective factors that aren't disclosed to the firm's lawyers, 0:19:37.320 --> 0:19:39.440 But five of the six women who brought the suit 0:19:39.560 --> 0:19:42.760 told a federal judge on March eleven that they're withdrawing it. 0:19:43.200 --> 0:19:46.640 Their attorneys and jones Day representatives declined to say whether 0:19:46.680 --> 0:19:49.600 the case had been settled. The lawsuit will go forward, 0:19:49.640 --> 0:19:53.919 with one plaintiff, former jones Day lawyer Katrina Henderson, continuing 0:19:53.960 --> 0:19:57.240 the suit. Joining me is Aaron mulvaney, Senior legal reporter 0:19:57.280 --> 0:20:01.159 at Bloomberg Law Aaron first of all, explain why the 0:20:01.240 --> 0:20:05.040 compensation system at Jones's Day is referred to as a 0:20:05.080 --> 0:20:09.800 black box. So Jones Day has been excused of having 0:20:09.920 --> 0:20:14.159 that black box, UM because these female attorneys that sued 0:20:14.200 --> 0:20:18.440 the law firm say that the managers keep it very 0:20:18.480 --> 0:20:23.160 secret what other partners are getting paid, and so it's 0:20:23.200 --> 0:20:28.200 basically a matter of transparency about the compensation among lawyers 0:20:28.200 --> 0:20:32.440 at the firm. Is a managing partner making all these 0:20:32.480 --> 0:20:36.560 decisions without input from other partners? Is that unusual in 0:20:36.600 --> 0:20:40.480 a law firm. I'm not sure if it's unusual, But 0:20:40.560 --> 0:20:44.280 the female attorneys who pointed it out UM in their 0:20:44.359 --> 0:20:48.480 lawsuits UM say that that led to that system that 0:20:48.600 --> 0:20:51.800 kind of led that kept in secret and there was 0:20:51.880 --> 0:20:57.320 a a possible bias coming from a top down system 0:20:57.720 --> 0:21:00.919 that that had a preference for possibly male partners, was 0:21:00.960 --> 0:21:03.720 the claim and the lawsuit, and they also claimed that 0:21:03.720 --> 0:21:06.720 it was unusual among law firms UM to have that 0:21:06.800 --> 0:21:11.639 kind of system. And as far as this lawsuit, five 0:21:11.680 --> 0:21:14.440 of the six women are withdrawing. Tell us about that 0:21:14.520 --> 0:21:18.280 the lawsuit is still going on but with less people. Yes, 0:21:18.400 --> 0:21:22.560 the lawsuits that was filed UM. The news last week 0:21:22.720 --> 0:21:26.159 was that uh, five of the six women who filed 0:21:26.400 --> 0:21:29.600 who were part of the original lawsuit UM withdrew their 0:21:29.640 --> 0:21:33.520 claims and one of the women will be moving forward, 0:21:33.560 --> 0:21:36.280 but the others will not be. And there are very 0:21:36.320 --> 0:21:40.000 few details on whether there was that was because if 0:21:40.000 --> 0:21:44.639 there was a settlement UM or something like that, what 0:21:44.720 --> 0:21:47.359 else could it be besides a settlement. I'm trying to 0:21:47.400 --> 0:21:53.120 imagine what else would get five people to withdraw their complaint. Well, 0:21:53.160 --> 0:21:56.679 in a statement the women, the women said that the 0:21:56.920 --> 0:22:02.000 paid data that was perfected by the firm UM. They 0:22:02.000 --> 0:22:04.160 said that the review of pay data that Jones Day 0:22:04.200 --> 0:22:08.000 was forced to turn over didn't support allegations of widespread 0:22:08.040 --> 0:22:12.040 pay disparities. So it's it's possible they didn't think they 0:22:12.040 --> 0:22:15.000 had a case moving forward, but obviously I'm just speculating 0:22:15.200 --> 0:22:18.040 at this At this point, I think one of the 0:22:18.359 --> 0:22:23.080 purposes of this lawsuit was to try to UM to 0:22:23.320 --> 0:22:26.399