1 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 1: Hi. Everyone, It's Jen from Killer Thriller Docu Edition here 2 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 1: with Alisa Donovan, host of Killer Thriller. Hi, my girl, Hello, Hello, Hello. Hi. 3 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: If you guys are true crime fans, you know there's 4 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 1: a ton of great content out there right now. Documentaries, docuseries, dramatizations. 5 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 1: There's always something new to watch. And today Miss Elisa 6 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 1: and I are talking about some of our favorite binge 7 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 1: worthy true crime shows. So we're gonna compare notes, We're 8 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:45,559 Speaker 1: gonna swap recommendations, We're gonna share, spare some opinions. No 9 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: doubt we're gonna end up with a few new titles 10 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 1: on our watch list. So let's get into it. Okay, 11 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:53,360 Speaker 1: my girl, So you want to start, tell me what's 12 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: going on with you? What are you sure? 13 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 2: I mean, aside from because as you know, neither of 14 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 2: us sleep, so we have a lot of a lot 15 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 2: of time on our hands now. So I the first 16 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 2: one that I want to talk to you about is 17 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 2: because I just did this interview with Joe Berlinger. He 18 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 2: is the director of Extremely Wicked, Shockingly Evil and Vile, 19 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 2: which is very title nineteen. So interesting thing about this title. 20 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 2: This is about Ted Bundy, but his relationship with Liz Kendall, 21 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 2: his girl, his longtime girlfriend that continued to support him 22 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:32,120 Speaker 2: even while he was in on trial. So Joe directed 23 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 2: that that title comes from what the judge in the 24 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 2: actual case said to Ted once he was convicted. He 25 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 2: said that his crimes were extremely wicked, shockingly evil and vile. 26 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 2: So that's where the title comes from. But so Joe, 27 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 2: who is he's an expert at Ted Bundy. He also 28 00:01:53,280 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 2: did the documentary Confession Conversations with a Killer Ted Bundy, right, 29 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 2: So he did both of these at the same time, 30 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 2: and he also talked about he's so fascinating, he's a 31 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 2: wealth of information and he's super super smart, And he 32 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 2: talked about why he started to get involved in this 33 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 2: sort of thing in the first place and make these 34 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:22,960 Speaker 2: films is because well, he talked specifically about Ted Bundy, 35 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 2: like why he started to make the movie about Ted 36 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 2: Bundy because he has young daughters and at the time, 37 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 2: one was just finishing college, one was going into college, 38 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 2: and neither of them knew who Ted Bundy was. And 39 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 2: he was sort of flabbery asted by that. 40 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:42,960 Speaker 1: Because I don't think my kids would know, right. 41 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 2: And he really, you know, preyed upon these college women 42 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 2: that were educated and at this point in their lives, 43 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:55,919 Speaker 2: and so he went, oh my gosh, this is almost 44 00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 2: like this is actually an important movie to make and 45 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 2: to show the sign of how you can be manipulated 46 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 2: by someone like this, Like just because someone's charming and 47 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:10,679 Speaker 2: handsome and smart does not mean that they are not dangerous. 48 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:15,079 Speaker 2: And he also talks about his own abuse when he 49 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:19,959 Speaker 2: was a kid and why he turned that into art 50 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 2: and education and making these documentaries. Mainly The Extremely Wicked 51 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 2: is I believe one of the if not the only, 52 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:33,079 Speaker 2: narrative movie that he made. But it's a phenomenal movie, 53 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 2: and he is just like he's incredibly forthcoming, and he 54 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 2: was just it was unbelievable because you know, Ted Bundy, 55 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 2: you know, is like he's one of He's like the 56 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 2: definition of diabolical. 57 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 1: The iconic, evil, freaky murderer. 58 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 2: Right, yes, who really kind of broke apart this idea 59 00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 2: of how we envision and dangerous people. Right. It's not 60 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:05,120 Speaker 2: that because he was charming. He was so charming. So 61 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 2: this is why it was so important that he cast 62 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 2: zach Efron as Ted Bundy exactly, and he wanted to 63 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 2: really put that in people's faces. How this was and 64 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 2: especially at that moment, Zach was, you know, so beloved 65 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 2: and so famous for these really jovial, light wonderful. 66 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:27,719 Speaker 1: School musical right, yes, yes, right, yeah, yeah that was 67 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 1: not a Ted Bundy character for sure. No, yeah, no, 68 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 1: I want to I'm now I'm actually dying. I hate 69 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:37,719 Speaker 1: using that word when we talk through crime. Anyway, I'm 70 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 1: dying to see it. First of all, I do love 71 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:44,719 Speaker 1: zac Efron yep, and talk about like good looking and charming. 72 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:45,920 Speaker 1: But not only do I want to watch it, I 73 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 1: want specifically my daughter, yes, to watch it with me. 74 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:50,480 Speaker 2: Yes. 75 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 1: I think that it is a very that's a very 76 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 1: interesting way that a director becomes involved in something is 77 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 1: to really want to protect his. 78 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:06,359 Speaker 2: Daughters, right, yes, yes, And it's beautifully it's really well crafted. 79 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 2: And Lily Collins is phenomenal who plays less Yeah, she's 80 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 2: so good, she's so so, so good, and it's really 81 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:18,919 Speaker 2: her her story. Uh, it's just you got to see it. 82 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:20,720 Speaker 1: You got to see it, yeah, because you think, how 83 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 1: can someone actually love this monster? 84 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:24,839 Speaker 2: Correct? 85 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:25,360 Speaker 1: Right? 86 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 2: Yep? 87 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:28,279 Speaker 1: Okay, yep, Okay, so that's on the list. 88 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:29,160 Speaker 2: Yes, I'll tell you. 89 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 1: Okay, So I just got done watching Michael Jackson the 90 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 1: verdict and wow. So well, first of all, I have 91 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 1: not seen Michael, have you? 92 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:43,600 Speaker 2: I have, and I went to the premiere of Michael 93 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 2: Get Out the movie, which you know, it's it's so 94 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:50,600 Speaker 2: controversial because you say, okay, is it okay that we 95 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 2: still celebrate this person's music when these allegations though no 96 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 2: one he wasn't found guilty of any of them, it 97 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 2: does not mean he is not guilty because we're paid off, 98 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:02,040 Speaker 2: et cetera. 99 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:05,279 Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting the timing of it, all right, because 100 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 1: this documentary came out right about at the same time 101 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 1: as Michael, and so I was or I'm going to 102 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:18,599 Speaker 1: interview Diane Diamond got pushed off a little bit. She 103 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 1: is the one who she's an investigative journalist. She originally 104 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 1: broke the original abuse allegation, so back in nineteen ninety three, 105 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 1: and so yeah, so it's kind of crazy. I have 106 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 1: not seen Michael specifically. When I found out I was 107 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 1: doing this, I just waited because I wanted to have 108 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 1: to not be swayed in any way when I was 109 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:44,480 Speaker 1: watching it. So it's three part series and what is 110 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:47,480 Speaker 1: so crazy about it? Right? I was there? You were there? Yeah, 111 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:49,600 Speaker 1: you know, the story. We know how this went down. 112 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:51,040 Speaker 1: So there was a lot of wow, oh my god, 113 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 1: I remember that. I remember that, like when he got 114 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 1: up on the on the top of the suv and 115 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: danced in Yes, all of the fans at the courthouse 116 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 1: and all of us right. Which was so interesting about 117 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 1: the way this was made is that so you would 118 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 1: see it from the prosecution side, certainly from Diane Diamond's side, 119 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 1: and they would make a case for the fact that 120 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 1: he was a child molester. And so the prosecution would 121 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 1: lay out all of these facts, right, and there were 122 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 1: all of these witnesses, and all of a sudden, the 123 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:24,240 Speaker 1: defense would swoop in and you would see how they 124 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 1: could discredit these witnesses and the accounts. Okay. So, for instance, 125 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 1: there was a mother who was put on the stand, 126 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 1: put on the stand by the prosecution, and she said 127 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 1: that her son had been molested by Michael, and she 128 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 1: had all of this information right. And then the defense 129 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 1: finds out that this same mother had sued J. C. 130 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 1: Penny her son had been shoplifting years before, her son 131 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 1: had been shoplifting, and it turned into a fistfight with 132 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 1: the security guard of JC Penny and her because the 133 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 1: son was shoplifting. This is how it's told. I don't 134 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 1: know if it was allegedly shoplifting, but I believe it 135 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: was told shoplifting. And then she sues J. C. Penny 136 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 1: for damages, you know, for millions of dollars. 137 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 2: Right, oh, right, So then they're like, this is a 138 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 2: systemic problem with this one. 139 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 1: Bactly sets it up, like, you know, here's this great 140 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 1: witness that's coming in and boom, all of a sudden, 141 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 1: like cut off at the knees. They even the prosecution 142 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 1: brings in Michael's ex wife who he had. I don't 143 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:35,959 Speaker 1: know if you remember, but he had two kids with 144 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:39,720 Speaker 1: Debbie Rote exactly, so they bring her in. She's supposed 145 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 1: to be another star witness, right for the prosecution. She 146 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 1: takes one look at Michael. Michael takes one look of her, 147 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 1: and her whole story apparently changes into I love him, 148 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 1: I have no doubt that he's a good father. So like, 149 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:56,560 Speaker 1: the prosecution brings him in and she turns out to 150 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: be a witness for the defense. Now, oh gosh, so 151 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 1: much in this documentary, so much evidence against him. So 152 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 1: but it was the interesting part is watching it how 153 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 1: the defense countered the prosecution at almost every turn right, 154 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:19,080 Speaker 1: exactly right, and so it's definitely watching it through a 155 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 1: different lens. 156 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 2: So the thing I will say about I'm definitely watching that. 157 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 2: And the thing I will say about the movie Michael 158 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:34,559 Speaker 2: is that they they cover his childhood up until Big fame. 159 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:37,600 Speaker 2: So I feel like it ends maybe around the beat 160 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 2: It era, I'm not sure, but they don't cover the allegations, 161 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 2: and they weren't allowed to. Apparently they shot a whole 162 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 2: other ending and it had to be removed from the film. 163 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:52,320 Speaker 2: But I will say they set up his life in 164 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:56,200 Speaker 2: such a way that shows you this was not a 165 00:09:56,240 --> 00:09:57,440 Speaker 2: normal childhood. Right. 166 00:09:57,480 --> 00:09:58,079 Speaker 1: It was abused. 167 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 2: This boy was abused and also like put to work 168 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 2: in a way that his siblings were not. I mean, 169 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 2: they all were to a certain extent, but Michael, once 170 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 2: he became the cash cow for the family, he had 171 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:15,440 Speaker 2: no childhood. So then you can put together I was 172 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:19,280 Speaker 2: putting together in my mind. Okay, so now this lays 173 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 2: out how this may just wanted to play with kids, 174 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 2: wanted to be a kid, wanted to have a childhood. 175 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:27,679 Speaker 2: Now that does not make it right or you know, 176 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:29,319 Speaker 2: but it just sort of gives. 177 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 1: There's that line though, between right, like wanted to hang 178 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:33,839 Speaker 1: out with kids and act like a child and actually 179 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:38,320 Speaker 1: be a predator, right, and so, and everyone in the 180 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 1: documentary is so compelling and you know, really to this 181 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 1: day believes in their own evidence. So it's like it's 182 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 1: it's very weird. And they even show at one point, 183 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 1: they don't show it, but they talk about how at 184 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:57,440 Speaker 1: one point they were playing like this guy Martin b 185 00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:00,840 Speaker 1: Cher had done this when Diana Princess Diana, he had 186 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 1: done the documentary. 187 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 2: He did an interview with him. Do you remember that, Yeah, 188 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 2: well that's what. 189 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 1: Well, they played the whole thing for the jury in 190 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:10,320 Speaker 1: this documentary, and so they played for the jury. And 191 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 1: the problem is that as they're playing it, so it 192 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:15,319 Speaker 1: was the prosecution that wanted it shown, because Martin b 193 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:18,319 Speaker 1: schert uncovers starts to talk to about why are you 194 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 1: sleeping in bed with all these little boys? But as 195 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 1: they're playing it, they see the jury and they say 196 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 1: even one of the prosecuting attorneys they're taping their feet 197 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 1: because there's all this music to it, right, so the 198 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 1: jury is sort of like getting swept up in his talent. 199 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 1: And so it's so complicated yep, And it's yeah, it's 200 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 1: really it's really good. I think I'll probably go into 201 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 1: Michael because I do want to see it in a different. 202 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:47,719 Speaker 2: With a different So I'll be curious to see what 203 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 2: you think about that, because it is I feel like 204 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 2: they do not shy away from it in terms of 205 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:56,200 Speaker 2: like setting up just even his odd behavior, you know, 206 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 2: with animals, right and like all of that stuff, Like 207 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:01,960 Speaker 2: none of that is you know, I hate to say 208 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 2: normal because I feel like I'm weird. But I'm not weird, 209 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 2: you know what I mean? Like this is outer limits, 210 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 2: this is. 211 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 1: Not I don't see you as weird at all, Lisa. 212 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 1: But okay, all right, so wait, what's okay? 213 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 2: So? 214 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 1: Yeah? That was that. That's a really interesting one. 215 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 2: I'm definitely gonna yea check that out. Yeah, okay, So 216 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:39,200 Speaker 2: my other one, I just interviewed Danny Strong, who is 217 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 2: just extraordinarily talented. He's award winning writer, director, and actor. 218 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 2: He created, he created, executive produced, and show ran Dope Sick, 219 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:56,079 Speaker 2: the Emmy winning, acclaimed Hulu drama series that was adapted 220 00:12:56,080 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 2: from Beth Macy's book. 221 00:12:57,720 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 1: Right, wait, Lisa, is this the one with Michael Keaton? 222 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 2: Yes, with Michael Keaton? Is it not just I. It 223 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 2: is one of the most powerful, upsetting, moving, beautiful series. 224 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:17,439 Speaker 2: And it's so complex, like it covers so many areas 225 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 2: of the FBI side. And you have the DEA and 226 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:24,960 Speaker 2: the DEA agent played by Rosaria Dawson, who is like 227 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 2: her exhaustion level at what she went through with this family. 228 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 2: So the Sacklers, who are the owners and creators of 229 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 2: Purdue Pharma and the major beneficiaries of all of their 230 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 2: just their they own the company, and they were so deceitful, 231 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 2: and so they they knowingly created this drug and pedaled 232 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 2: it as something that was non addictive, and it was 233 00:13:55,720 --> 00:14:00,960 Speaker 2: fiercely addictive because everyone knows that opioids are very, very addictive. 234 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 2: It's it's harder, you know, to quit than anything. And 235 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:12,960 Speaker 2: so they advertised, pedaled, sold this drug as non addictive 236 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:18,440 Speaker 2: ox OxyContin and then they they kept they kept upping 237 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 2: it when people became so they started to create this 238 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 2: lingo and language like break through pain and individualize the 239 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 2: dose and blame the abuser. When all of these things, 240 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 2: it's like they they legitimize it by creating this terminology 241 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 2: and all of it. It's all lies. Something like four 242 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 2: hundred thousand people died from overdoses of OxyContin alone. 243 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 1: I remember this, yeah. 244 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 2: It and Danny is like, first of all, Danny and 245 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 2: I know each other. He was an actor back in 246 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 2: the day. He did a couple of episodes of the 247 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 2: series of Clueless, and we sort of had these little 248 00:14:56,840 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 2: kapers together, so I just did him. And he was 249 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 2: so funny and so smart, and so he is, Uh, 250 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 2: he's just a wealth of information and is an incredible 251 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 2: showrunner and he has really made this a part of 252 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 2: his life's work to get this information out. And it's 253 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:21,400 Speaker 2: also really great to understand addiction more. He talked about 254 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 2: how he really didn't understand what addicts go through, in 255 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 2: in particular opioid addicts, and then the just despicable greed 256 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 2: of the Sackler family and how even when they knew 257 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 2: when they were going to court and getting sued, they 258 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 2: still they would get through that case and then they 259 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 2: would double down on the advertising and double down on that. 260 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 1: It was I remember I remember being so taken with 261 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 1: also Michael Keaton's performance, and so the way that he 262 00:15:56,920 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 1: as the doctor who was prescribing it, right, I remembering. 263 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 2: This correctly, Yes, And then he beco killed and then he. 264 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 1: Becomes addicted and then the young girl I'm not giving it. 265 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:09,479 Speaker 2: Katelyn, Katelyn Deaver. She's so phenomenal. 266 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 1: And I remember her in that tent at the end. Yes, 267 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 1: I mean those images. I haven't thought about this a 268 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 1: long time really, but those images were haunting. The acting 269 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 1: that was unbelievable. 270 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 2: So and as a mother, her mother having to go 271 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 2: look for her in those environments. 272 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 1: Yes, oh yeah, that was great. I remember watching it again. 273 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 1: I always keep saying this, but when I say something 274 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 1: is great, it was so it was like tragic. 275 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 2: Well right, I mean that's the thing about the narrative, 276 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 2: you know, the actual movies and TV shows about these things. Everybody, 277 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:46,040 Speaker 2: you know, this is why. One of the things that's 278 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 2: so wonderful about both Danny and Joe that they they 279 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 2: are doing this from the from the the point of 280 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 2: view of of healing and helping and sharing information right 281 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 2: and really doing justice. Both of them were very, very 282 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 2: invested in supporting the survivors and the victims of these crimes. 283 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:12,199 Speaker 2: They you know, Joe went and spoke, brought Lily and 284 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 2: spoke to Liz Kendall, Ted Bundy's former girlfriend and her daughter, 285 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 2: whom she had wonderful memories of Ted Bundy, you know, 286 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:25,199 Speaker 2: and Danny went and spoke with many of all of 287 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 2: the characters, Michael Keaton's and Caitlyn Devers. These are all 288 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 2: based on very real people, right, And the nun and 289 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 2: the doctor who at the end really become the people 290 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:42,960 Speaker 2: that help him recover. Those are very real people that 291 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:47,200 Speaker 2: he spoke to. And I just like I loved both 292 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 2: of these interviews so much and both these projects. 293 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 1: I love that too. When you talked to and that's 294 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:57,120 Speaker 1: sort of a perfect segue for me when you talk 295 00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 1: to someone like the director that I spoke to recently, 296 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:06,160 Speaker 1: whose name is Jessica Dimmock and she directed Maternal Instinct. 297 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:08,399 Speaker 1: So I don't know if you've seen have you seen it? 298 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 2: Listen? I have not seen this yet, but I have 299 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 2: no less than five text messages from five different people 300 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:18,199 Speaker 2: asking me if I have seen this a lazy and 301 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:19,919 Speaker 2: telling me that I need to see it. 302 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 1: Alisa, Alisa, Alisa, it is it is Wow, It is shocking, terrifying, 303 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:28,679 Speaker 1: just awful. 304 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 2: This woman pretends she's pregnant and then what happens. 305 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 1: Correct, So what happens is this woman gets pulled over 306 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 1: by state troopers Texas State troopers pull over this woman 307 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 1: who's driving erradically and this is in twenty twenty, so 308 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:43,400 Speaker 1: she's crying hysterically. I just had a baby. Please take 309 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 1: me to the hospital. The baby is literally in her arms. 310 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:49,159 Speaker 1: Please call my husband, tell them to meet me at 311 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 1: the hospital. Actually, they don't think we're married at that point, 312 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 1: and the story just doesn't add up. 313 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 2: But she has an actual baby. 314 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:01,399 Speaker 1: She has an actual baby. Anyway, So you find out 315 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 1: that this is not her baby, and you find out 316 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 1: that she murdered somebody, a woman that she was friendly 317 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 1: with worked for She worked for her as a wedding photographer. Oh, 318 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 1: to this woman's house, stabs her, opens her up, takes 319 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:27,639 Speaker 1: the baby. Okay, this wonderful, sweet woman. 320 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:30,200 Speaker 2: Wait, the woman was pregnant. 321 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:34,919 Speaker 1: She was pregnant in a desperate attempt to pull this 322 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 1: off as her own baby. And one of the things 323 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 1: that Jessica and I talked about, so pregnant women are 324 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 1: I don't remember the numbers, but shockingly more susceptible to 325 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 1: violent crimes. 326 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:53,879 Speaker 2: Yes, we covered this with Scott Peterson. When I talked 327 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 2: to Ted Rowlands about this. 328 00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, well I didn't. I did not. I'd heard it 329 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 1: once before, but the numbers are are shocking and really upsetting. 330 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:08,960 Speaker 1: But so the story documents her as she is faking 331 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 1: a pregnancy. Okay, you start at the beginning. You sort 332 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 1: of get her background, and she grew up what seems 333 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:24,440 Speaker 1: and what seems like a fairly normal, you know, Southern background, 334 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:28,119 Speaker 1: and they talk to her high school friends. But she's 335 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 1: whacked and she always wanted to be the pretty girl 336 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 1: who got the guy. That's how they described it. I 337 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:37,880 Speaker 1: guess at one point she was like really morbidly obese, 338 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:42,560 Speaker 1: and then she had had a gastric sleeve, and it's 339 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 1: all of this background information on her, and then you 340 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:49,920 Speaker 1: see how she starts faking this pregnancy with her boyfriend 341 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 1: who she is obsessed with, and she literally like orders 342 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 1: like one of those rubber bellies she has. By the way, 343 00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 1: mind you she already has kids, okay, and oh she does, yes, 344 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 1: but she doesn't have custody of them. But they visit, 345 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 1: and you see all this video of the kids visiting, 346 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 1: and she gets with this. She always wanted a cowboy. 347 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:16,479 Speaker 1: She meets this cowboy and they're they're sort of they 348 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 1: become they It starts to get rocky. She doesn't know 349 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:22,919 Speaker 1: if he wants what she wants, and so she fakes 350 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 1: this pregnancy. But as as the you see that that 351 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 1: it starts to come together to people that knew them, 352 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 1: because you find out that she had had a hysterectomy 353 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 1: and there are people in the world I know this 354 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 1: about her, okay, and that are trying to talk to 355 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 1: her boyfriend and say, dude, she is not capable, right, 356 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,119 Speaker 1: but she keeps and then to the down to the 357 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:50,159 Speaker 1: fact that he puts his hand on her belly at 358 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:54,159 Speaker 1: one point and feels movement, like she was able to 359 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:58,679 Speaker 1: even fake that. It's crazy town. It's crazy. 360 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:01,920 Speaker 2: That's like, you know, she ate something weird and her 361 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:03,680 Speaker 2: melly is making. 362 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 1: She had somehow managed to do I don't know. It 363 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 1: was so crazy and upsetting. And this guy, this you know, 364 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:15,959 Speaker 1: this cowboy. They show it. Also, it's the cinematography of it. 365 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:20,600 Speaker 1: He runs like a hog farm and so the director 366 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 1: was brilliant. And she you see like these these sort 367 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:27,680 Speaker 1: of violent hogs and you see her sort of with them, 368 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:31,919 Speaker 1: and it is so icky and chilling. And she is 369 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:38,960 Speaker 1: so icky and chilling, and you know, juxtaposed with this sweet, 370 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 1: wonderful mother who was one of the only people that 371 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:49,119 Speaker 1: really defended her, did not believe the rumors that she 372 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 1: wasn't pregnant. So it's blowing up. 373 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 2: You know, it's rare that we talk about female murderers 374 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:18,120 Speaker 2: on our well show here, but when we do, it's 375 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:22,400 Speaker 2: really I just find it like so upsetting. 376 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 1: You know what, we'd not only have talked about female 377 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 1: ones on my show, we've talked about talked about child ones. 378 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 1: So we a number of them were kids fifteen year 379 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:36,160 Speaker 1: old taking their friend over county lines and stabbord to death. 380 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 2: Well, this is like the Matthew Shepherd. I interviewed Shane Meyer, 381 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:44,640 Speaker 2: who played Matthew Shepherd in the movie many years ago 382 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:50,400 Speaker 2: with Sam Waterson and Stockard Channing. Yes, he and these kids. 383 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:56,640 Speaker 2: This is such a brutal, brutal, brutal murder of this 384 00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 2: young boy by these boys that brought him out, drove 385 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 2: him into the middle of this field and pistol whipped 386 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 2: him nearly to left him there. And these kids are 387 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 2: seventeen years old. 388 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:13,680 Speaker 1: These kids were fifteen. They were two girls. They showed 389 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 1: them in middle school, sitting in their classroom all together, 390 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 1: pictures of the three besties together, and they take her 391 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:20,920 Speaker 1: and they stab her to death. Wait, have you seen 392 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:21,440 Speaker 1: the crash? 393 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:29,720 Speaker 3: Yes, Oh, well wtf I mean another woman who us 394 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:33,960 Speaker 3: their car right into a fricking brick wall right hitting me. 395 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:36,920 Speaker 2: I mean this is like so when you know Joe 396 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 2: Berlinger talked about this also. He said, you know how 397 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:45,159 Speaker 2: some people claim this is exploiting these crimes or you know, 398 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 2: perpetuating murderer and murders and all of these things, and 399 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:53,760 Speaker 2: it's not. It's like, this is a part of human nature. 400 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 2: It exists in people. So this is why we are 401 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:01,159 Speaker 2: fascinated by it, and this is why it's important to 402 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:01,920 Speaker 2: talk about it. 403 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 1: Well, I appreciate you putting that out there because it 404 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 1: makes me feel much better about the fact that I'm obsessed. 405 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:09,919 Speaker 2: Well yeah, you know. I one of the things that 406 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:13,960 Speaker 2: has been so rewarding to me and doing this podcast 407 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:18,879 Speaker 2: is talking to these people who have either themselves gone 408 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:22,919 Speaker 2: through horrific things and have come out the other side 409 00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:26,240 Speaker 2: to talk about it to help other people or the 410 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:31,359 Speaker 2: creators who come from this place of like I said, 411 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:35,359 Speaker 2: really wanting to do good work, to express the human 412 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 2: condition and to show all of the parts of life. 413 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 1: And how to bring about awareness. Right. Yes, yes, did 414 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 1: one about fraternity hazing and you know, the death that happens. 415 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 1: But it's these people, these heroes, and they they go 416 00:25:54,400 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 1: and they fight for you know, these laws to and awareness. 417 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,639 Speaker 2: Victims rights and right even though their. 418 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 1: Children are gone and they're still fighting for what's called 419 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 1: Adam's Law. 420 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 2: Which I interviewed Joe Beth Williams who was in the 421 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:15,520 Speaker 2: movie about Adam, which was what birthed these laws. 422 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:17,480 Speaker 1: Wait, Adam's Law about the hazing. 423 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,960 Speaker 2: So Adam's Law. Oh, oh, that's a different Adam's Law. 424 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:23,919 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is about I can't keep it, believe me. 425 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:28,080 Speaker 1: It kills me. The fact you have so many names, yeah, 426 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:30,960 Speaker 1: right right there at the tip of your tongue, because 427 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 1: a lot of it is just I don't know, if 428 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 1: you block it after a while, Yeah. 429 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 2: I mean it's sort of easier to remember the actors 430 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 2: and the directors, Yeah, because you are like people. It 431 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 2: is because they're in the public eye or there are 432 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:48,159 Speaker 2: people that I know or have you know, admired for years, 433 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 2: So it's a little bit easier to remember the names. 434 00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:52,000 Speaker 1: Thank you, my love. 435 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:55,160 Speaker 2: The one that I was talking about. In nineteen eighty one, 436 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 2: a young boy Adam was brutally murdered and beheaded and 437 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 2: this was the parents. One of the father is he's 438 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 2: the host of America's most wanted. 439 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 1: Anna of course John Walsh, Yes, of course, of course, 440 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:17,680 Speaker 1: of course yes. And that was so tragic. I remember, 441 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 1: Oh my god. And then he dedicated his life right 442 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:24,240 Speaker 1: to help his mind these murders. And I Adam's Law 443 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:29,119 Speaker 1: came about from these these parents whose son was hazed 444 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 1: to death. And the story is, when I tell you 445 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 1: so heartbreaking, it was so Adam's Law is Virginia's anti 446 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 1: hazing legislation. So it was enacted in twenty twenty two. 447 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:49,080 Speaker 1: And it followed the hazing of this sweet boy. And 448 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:51,840 Speaker 1: you see his sweet parents and what he was an 449 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 1: only child, what it did to them, and the way 450 00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:58,960 Speaker 1: in which it happened, and the way in which these 451 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 1: these boys, oh my god, they treated him. And he 452 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:06,680 Speaker 1: was extremely overweight, and they said the most disgusting things 453 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:09,920 Speaker 1: before the night happened, which was like initiation or big 454 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 1: little or whatever it was, and we're gonna, you know, 455 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:14,880 Speaker 1: we're gonna f up this piggy, like just awful off. 456 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 2: I am nauseated by this kind of behavior by the 457 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 2: whole culture of that like don't even get me started 458 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:24,520 Speaker 2: with the with fraternities in general, and that kind of 459 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 2: just I think it breathes nothing but violence and hatred 460 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:34,239 Speaker 2: and weirdness. And my husband, if he ever listens to this, 461 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 2: we'll be like, that's not true. I'm still very close 462 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:38,640 Speaker 2: to my fraternity brothers. 463 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 1: Guess what the reason that they had such hard time? 464 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:43,800 Speaker 1: Hard times? I should say because there were two laws 465 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 1: that were not acted that we talked about. But it's 466 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 1: because a lot of politicians are frap boys, right right, 467 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 1: and so it's a very strange thing and it has 468 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 1: been an uphill battle to try to get laws enacted 469 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,840 Speaker 1: to protect these kids from hazing. 470 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,719 Speaker 2: I mean, let's remember, their brains are not fully formed 471 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:05,400 Speaker 2: right in college still. 472 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 1: Twenty six, I want to say, right the front. 473 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 2: So maybe somebody should be putting some guardrails. 474 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 1: Right right, And that's what and that's but that is 475 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 1: what is. If there is anything that is comforting about 476 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:22,320 Speaker 1: watching true crime, you know, both documentaries and films, it's 477 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 1: that when you see people making a difference and it's 478 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 1: not just their putting it out for you, just the 479 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 1: thrill of it. But no, when I said to the parents, 480 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 1: you know, I want my kids to watch this although 481 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 1: they are now both out of college, but it should 482 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 1: be required for kids going into college to watch. 483 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:46,800 Speaker 2: It required viewing, right, yeah, right, yep, yep, yeah. 484 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 1: Well you guys put that up again because I love that. 485 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 1: I forgot about that that the FBI said that what 486 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:52,520 Speaker 1: is it? 487 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,720 Speaker 2: Frats are tighter lipped than the bloods and the crips. 488 00:29:56,000 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 1: Okay, then the dangerous card gangs. Okay, my god, right right, 489 00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 1: but listen, it's so informative and important. 490 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:07,440 Speaker 2: It really is. Of all of the I mean, gosh, 491 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:09,400 Speaker 2: I get talk about all of them. I interviewed Drel 492 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:12,960 Speaker 2: Jerome from When they see Us Ava de Verney's movie 493 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 2: about the Exonerated five that were called the Central Park 494 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 2: Five at the time. Of course, that that series I 495 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 2: feel like should be required viewing. It is so disturbing 496 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:30,000 Speaker 2: and upsetting and really shows the flaws in the police 497 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,200 Speaker 2: at the time and a lot of the investigative services, 498 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:36,840 Speaker 2: and these things are they are important. 499 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 1: To a lot of times. It's about the system having failed, right, 500 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:48,000 Speaker 1: but in a way, so if you watch Maternal Instinct, 501 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:53,520 Speaker 1: the doctors, right, they knew sort of what was going on, 502 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 1: but there are all these hippo laws, so they could 503 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:59,360 Speaker 1: talk about how this person can't be pregnant, she had 504 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:02,959 Speaker 1: a hysterect me, but there's all these laws in place 505 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 1: to protect her, and what about the protection of the victim. 506 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:11,400 Speaker 1: And so it's takes a look, a necessary look, and 507 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 1: an important look at not only you know, people's character 508 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 1: and how evil they can be, but also at our 509 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,960 Speaker 1: systems and sometimes what's wrong with them. 510 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:27,720 Speaker 2: And sometimes these things that are put in place to 511 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 2: protect people wind up being the things that other criminals 512 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 2: can hide behind. 513 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 1: Correct, correct, And that's true also. 514 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:38,040 Speaker 2: With the Ted Bundy I mean, good god, that that 515 00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 2: series extremely wicked. Sorry, that movie extremely wicked. You have 516 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:46,400 Speaker 2: to watch it. It's like some of the things that 517 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:49,280 Speaker 2: were in there. I asked Joe. I thought, oh, this 518 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:54,080 Speaker 2: is like a little inflamed and invented for dramatic purposes. 519 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,560 Speaker 2: And then I watched the documentary after and I went, 520 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,920 Speaker 2: this is verbatim what was happening in the court room. 521 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:03,640 Speaker 2: I mean, it's crazy. 522 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 1: Wait, at least that we should do. We should do 523 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 1: a pod. You watch the film, I'll watch the documentary 524 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:14,000 Speaker 1: and then yes, yes, yes, thanks. 525 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:16,480 Speaker 2: Yes, I think that's a great idea because I want 526 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:18,440 Speaker 2: the two of us to be able to do this. 527 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:21,440 Speaker 1: More I agree, Bunny, it's my favorite. I love it. 528 00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:23,120 Speaker 2: Oh, I love you. 529 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 1: I mean, I think that that would be really really 530 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:27,920 Speaker 1: interesting sort of sort of comparing, especially when they are 531 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 1: so similar, right, yeah, and which is harder to watch 532 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:33,080 Speaker 1: the documentary. 533 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 2: I know, well, you know, it's interesting even who said 534 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:41,440 Speaker 2: this to me, Elizabeth Smart. So I did not interview 535 00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 2: Elizabeth Smart, but I interviewed Skeet Ulrick about the movie 536 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:49,160 Speaker 2: that he did on her life. He played her perpetrator 537 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 2: and her captor and abuse her, and he met her 538 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 2: she was on set and everything, and you know, she said, 539 00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 2: the reason that I'm I'm doing this movie and that 540 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:02,040 Speaker 2: I am allowing these things to happen is because it 541 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 2: is oftentimes easier for people to digest real things through story, 542 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:13,000 Speaker 2: and then because they get an emotional experience from watching it, 543 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 2: and then they can understand like the depth of what 544 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,040 Speaker 2: really happened. So I thought that was so interesting that 545 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:27,000 Speaker 2: someone who has getten through unspeakable horrors is saying, no, no, 546 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:29,640 Speaker 2: this is why we do this. You know that it's 547 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:30,520 Speaker 2: equally I. 548 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:34,959 Speaker 1: Can absolutely see that, and I see how directors of 549 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 1: the documentaries they also again like with the cinematography that 550 00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:41,440 Speaker 1: I was describing you. There have been a few a 551 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:45,520 Speaker 1: few docs that I've watched where, you know, the cinematography 552 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:47,960 Speaker 1: was so haunting, Right, it's not about the story itself, 553 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 1: but for whatever reason, they catch a dead crow, you know, 554 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:53,840 Speaker 1: and it's real. 555 00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:55,760 Speaker 2: I mean, it's still a very creative. 556 00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 1: Media varies, right, exactly, and it's also creative. And I 557 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 1: don't know, I don't know which one is which one 558 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:03,960 Speaker 1: is harder to watch, but let's find out. 559 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:08,680 Speaker 2: Yep. I love talking to you to thank you, Okay 560 00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:09,879 Speaker 1: I love talk soon.