1 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:09,840 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph Channel 2 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:15,160 Speaker 1: one thirty two. A Gatliber couple behind bars in Severe 3 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:18,280 Speaker 1: County facing murder charges after their two year old son 4 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:21,640 Speaker 1: was left in a car overnight. Investigators suspect that that 5 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 1: child was left Thursday afternoon, but that child wasn't found 6 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 1: until two in the afternoon on Friday. A two year 7 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: old child was left locked in a vehicle for at 8 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 1: least twelve and maybe as much as twenty four hours. 9 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:37,320 Speaker 1: The parents can face fifty one years in prison, life 10 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 1: without rule, or even the death penalty. It's not a 11 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:43,880 Speaker 1: legal stretch for a stated a to charge felony murder. 12 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:46,920 Speaker 1: The state is sending a message to parents, you have 13 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 1: to be more responsible. The worst thing a parent could 14 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 1: ever do is think that this wouldn't happen to them. 15 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: Found dead shortly before two p m. In the tour 16 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:05,120 Speaker 1: ist mecca in the middle of the Smoky mountains, Gatlinburg, Tennessee. 17 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:12,119 Speaker 1: What happened? The home where the baby was found coincidentally 18 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 1: belongs to Jerry Kirkman, the mayor of Westmoreland. It's a 19 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:23,319 Speaker 1: small town in middle Tennessee. I Nancy Grace, this is 20 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: crime stories. Thank you for being with us. How did 21 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:31,320 Speaker 1: a todd boy die in front of the Mayor's house? 22 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:36,039 Speaker 1: How did that go down? The two year old little 23 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 1: boy apparently died a heat stroke? Or did he? What 24 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: will the autopsy reveal? And why was the baby abandoned? Well? 25 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 1: For one reason, it was the mayor's grandson. Now does 26 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 1: that clarify what happened? Or muddy the water? A two 27 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 1: year old child found dead after apparently being left in 28 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 1: a car overnight. Now let's imagine that just for a moment, 29 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 1: and I say apparently dead from being left in a 30 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:18,679 Speaker 1: car overnight. But how is it that nobody for an 31 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 1: entire evening night, all night long until the afternoon, after 32 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 1: lunch two o'clock the next day, nobody notices the baby's gone? 33 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 1: Is that really what happened? Um? I don't know, but 34 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:39,360 Speaker 1: I'm having a tough time in my world, in Nancy 35 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 1: Grace world, understanding how your baby can be gone what 36 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 1: twenty four hours and nobody notices? Then it turns up 37 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:51,240 Speaker 1: dead in front of the Mayor's house with me senior 38 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 1: news anchor from the Blaze Radio Network. Longtime friend Robin 39 00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 1: Willinski also joining me for the sick expert Joe Scott Morgan, 40 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 1: professor at Jacksonville State University and death scene investigator who 41 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 1: has traveled all around the country investigating homicide scenes. Both 42 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 1: of you. Thank you for being with us. Joe Scott, 43 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:17,400 Speaker 1: I want to del v in with you, but I've 44 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 1: got to establish the facts first, Robin, what exactly am 45 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:24,120 Speaker 1: I missing? How does that happen? This is really bizarre 46 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:26,640 Speaker 1: and it's heartbreaking. And I think that your theory that 47 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:29,639 Speaker 1: the baby might have been killed elsewhere and then been 48 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 1: put in the car is definitely a possibility. What strikes 49 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 1: me about this story This is a neighborhood full of 50 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 1: vacation rentals, as you mentioned, you know, and when you're 51 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 1: in a neighborhood with vacation, Robbin, Robin, Robin, let me 52 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 1: tell you something. When I was a little girl, all 53 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 1: the way up through high school, that was the big deal. 54 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 1: Of course, you know, my dad worked for the railroad 55 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 1: Alan Alan Deep, just like your dad forty plus years. 56 00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:00,080 Speaker 1: My mom worked as an accountant for a big comp me. 57 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 1: They would get off on Friday, Robin would get would 58 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 1: get off five o'clock. The car would be packed and 59 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 1: would start driving, and our vacation was the weekend. We 60 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 1: would drive to Gatlinburg, Tennessee, would get there that night 61 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:19,320 Speaker 1: just enough to walk up and down the strip, get 62 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 1: a caramel apple or a candy apple, see the smoky mountains. 63 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:25,719 Speaker 1: Then would wake up there the next morning and we'd 64 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 1: spend all day Saturday and all day Sunday looking at 65 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:34,160 Speaker 1: the smokey mountains and being every and every nook and 66 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:39,400 Speaker 1: cranny of Gatlinburg, Tennessee. And then Sunday afternoon we drive 67 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:42,719 Speaker 1: all the way back and that would be our family vacation. Okay, 68 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 1: And now my twins go to the beach for ten 69 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 1: days and they're like, I'm like, I cannot believe you 70 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 1: people anyway, So Gatalinburg, Tennessee. I haven't been there in 71 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 1: a long time, but it was just yes, just what 72 00:04:56,080 --> 00:05:00,160 Speaker 1: you said. It's full of tourists because it's beautiful and 73 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:03,279 Speaker 1: how could you miss a baby in the car, that's 74 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: the thing. I mean. I've been to the area myself, 75 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 1: and you know, you have the people. People are coming 76 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 1: and going, as we stated, Okay, so that's that's painting 77 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:12,600 Speaker 1: a picture of the neighborhood of people coming and going, 78 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 1: vacation rentals, people are into their own thing. They don't 79 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 1: know who they don't know who's living next door, they 80 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: don't know what cars are parked in the driveway everyday. Nancy. 81 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 1: That's really the issue here, Robin Willinsky, You're right, people 82 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 1: coming and going, and there are a lot of rentals 83 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:29,599 Speaker 1: and a lot of tourists, but in that kind of neighborhood, 84 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 1: which is very very nice. I mean, this home is 85 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 1: it's like a dream home up in the mountains. I'm 86 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 1: just very surprised that no one knew that. But forget 87 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 1: about the tourists or the neighbors. What about the family. 88 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 1: What about the mom and the dad and the grandparents 89 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 1: or whoever put the baby in the car to start with. 90 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 1: I've got another question, and I want to go to 91 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, how can we tell if 92 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 1: the baby died of heat stroke or the baby died 93 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 1: of some other reason and was set in the car. Well, 94 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 1: they're gonna play They're gonna play their cards really close 95 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 1: to the best here, Nancy. Relative to the examination, I 96 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:11,160 Speaker 1: can imagine that the that the state police are are 97 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 1: conducting toxicological examination on the child, they're not going to 98 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:17,160 Speaker 1: release a lot of information to begin with. But just 99 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 1: from a practical standpoint, you're gonna be looking for signs 100 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 1: of first off dehydration, UH, the signs, for instance, that 101 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:27,719 Speaker 1: the child was restrained and was probably vomiting in the car, 102 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: probably gas or intestinal problems relative to UH hyperthermia. UH. 103 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 1: The temperature at that point in time for both of 104 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 1: those days was in the high eighties outside of the car, 105 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:42,839 Speaker 1: So you can add generally about I don't know, probably 106 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 1: a twelve to fifteen degrees internal temperature. Couple that with 107 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:49,160 Speaker 1: the anxiety of being strapped into a car and being 108 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 1: abandoned by your parents potentially, and this becomes a nightmare scenario. Well, 109 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 1: I hear that, But that's all about the hot car death. 110 00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:59,840 Speaker 1: My question is if the child died from some other 111 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:03,280 Speaker 1: reason and was then put in the car to look 112 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 1: like a hot card death, how can we tell that. Well, 113 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:08,360 Speaker 1: what we're gonna be looking for if the child was 114 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: killed elsewhere by some other means. The first thing is 115 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 1: going to be postmortem changes. We're gonna be looking at 116 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 1: how has the body changed since that point in time 117 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 1: of death. And there are a lot of different factors 118 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:22,240 Speaker 1: that will look at relative to things like rigor mortis 119 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 1: and postworm lividity, and even slow it down, Slow down 120 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 1: the train. Don't just throw out rigor mortis and lividity, 121 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 1: break it down. Break it down well. The stiffening of 122 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 1: the body after death takes place in a very a 123 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 1: very regimented manner. And so if the body if if, 124 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 1: what they're gonna have to do relative to the information 125 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 1: that's coming to the police via the family and per 126 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 1: their interviews, They're gonna match up those changes in the 127 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 1: body relative to the timeline that the parents are giving them. 128 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 1: And this this is where people generally screw up when 129 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 1: they're trying to conceal a death. They don't lies that. 130 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 1: We will read into what we're seeing at the scene 131 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 1: and try to marry that up with what they're saying 132 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 1: and see if it makes sense. That is the degree 133 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 1: that the body is stiffened lybra mortist, how has the 134 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 1: blood settled in the body if the child is in 135 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 1: a seated position, they find the child okay right here, 136 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 1: let me talk to you about that, because ingra mortists 137 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 1: can mimic it can rigor mortists can look the same 138 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 1: whether the child died right there or the child died 139 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 1: in the house, depending on the position of the child 140 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 1: at the time of death. But what you just said, 141 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 1: the pulling of the blood. Child died sitting right there 142 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:40,960 Speaker 1: in a car seat, you'll find the baby's blood pulled 143 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:44,200 Speaker 1: in the rear end, the legs, the toes, the feet. 144 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 1: The body sinks like if you're lying flat, the body 145 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 1: sinks to your back, your buttocks, the back of your legs. 146 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 1: It sinks down with gravity. That's what he's talking about. 147 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 1: What else can we tell if the child died anywhere else? Well, 148 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 1: if the child anywhere else, I think probably the most 149 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:04,560 Speaker 1: obvious thing, Nancy, are going to be the signs that 150 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 1: we're gonna be looking for relative to trauma. Okay, uh. 151 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:10,440 Speaker 1: That is if this was, say, for instance, some kind 152 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:13,719 Speaker 1: of airway block, it's like a suffocation or a mechanical 153 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 1: asphyxiation where the literature was used, We're gonna look for 154 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 1: signs in the eyes, like what about ever child was 155 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 1: suffocated with a pillow and then set out in the 156 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 1: car with that. Well, one of the things that we'll 157 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:30,319 Speaker 1: look for is when when people are suffocated, many times 158 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 1: that means that the mouth and the nose will be 159 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 1: depressed a tremendous amount of way will be placed. There's 160 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 1: a little attachment in our mouth that a lot of 161 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 1: people don't know about, called a frenulum. It's at the 162 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 1: bottom and the top, and and it kind of connects 163 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 1: our upper lip and our lower lip to our gum line. 164 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 1: And what happens many times is that area gets a 165 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 1: tiny little laceration in it, and it is easy to spot. 166 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:54,199 Speaker 1: Also in certain cases of suffocation, we can still pick 167 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:57,520 Speaker 1: up on Patikia and Nancy. As you well know, patiki 168 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 1: I just doesn't miraculously appear. There has to be some 169 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:04,719 Speaker 1: type of pressure applied. What that means is the tiny, 170 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 1: tiny little veins in your eyes. Have you ever woken 171 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 1: up one morning and you've got a big red thing 172 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:15,839 Speaker 1: in your eye? Something like that, except sometimes it's some 173 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 1: microscopic They have to see it under a microscope during autopsy. 174 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 1: When you're strangled or asphyxiated, those blood vessels explode in 175 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 1: your eye and they're so tiny um they're not always 176 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:31,960 Speaker 1: visible to the naked eye, but medical examiner can't see it. 177 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:35,320 Speaker 1: So with that in mind, would see those kind of 178 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:40,600 Speaker 1: particularly explosions in the I n as. Joe Scott Morgan 179 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:46,080 Speaker 1: was describing other edition of another type of death, be 180 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:50,080 Speaker 1: it innocent or nefarious, And we don't know. We don't 181 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 1: know if it was heat stroke, which it seems that's 182 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 1: what everyone's thinking, or that's suggested because the child's in 183 00:10:57,200 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 1: the car. Okay, we don't know what happened one way 184 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:04,359 Speaker 1: or the other. Back to Robin Willinski. Now the neighbors 185 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:08,680 Speaker 1: are saying the mayor of Westmoreland was not living in 186 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 1: that home. Who if anyone Robin was living there at 187 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:14,680 Speaker 1: the time the baby was found dead. Well, well, here's 188 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:17,920 Speaker 1: what we think. The parents the names are Anthony and 189 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 1: Jade Phillips. The woman, Jade is the daughter of the mayors, 190 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:26,680 Speaker 1: and she is a working person. She was apparently at work, 191 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:30,200 Speaker 1: and the dad is a stay at home dad. And 192 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 1: we are we know from the police situation that one 193 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 1: of the parents actually called police, but they're not saying 194 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: if it was mommy or daddy. So the mom was 195 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 1: out to work. Let's let me just think this thing through. 196 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 1: The mom was out to work. Does she work regular hours, 197 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 1: like you know, eight to five, eight to six, nine 198 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 1: to five, something like that, or does she work at night? 199 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 1: That that's part of it is unclear. But the baby 200 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 1: was found at two o'clock in the afternoon, So if 201 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:58,840 Speaker 1: she worked at regular day job nine to five, she 202 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 1: was not home. But we don't know. That's for a fact. 203 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 1: The Gatlinburg Police Department and the tb I Tennessee Bureau 204 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 1: of Investigation both are declining requests to release the incident report, 205 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 1: citing it being an ongoing investigation. We don't know right 206 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 1: now where the investigation stands, but we know that neighbors 207 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 1: are telling us that the mayor did not live there. However, 208 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 1: by all accounts, this is the mayor's grandson. Would that 209 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 1: be correct, Robin Willinsky, Yeah, he is the grandson. But 210 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 1: there's a couple of children's type toys that were out 211 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 1: on the lawn. So perhaps and again you know, this 212 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 1: is an assumption, perhaps the daughter and his son in 213 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 1: law we're living there with the baby. Maybe they were 214 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:48,120 Speaker 1: just there for a couple of days. Um, it's very unclear, 215 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:50,680 Speaker 1: but we know for sure that the Jerry Kirklin was 216 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:53,560 Speaker 1: not actually in the home that he owns at the 217 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:55,439 Speaker 1: time when the baby was in the car found in 218 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 1: the driveways. There was plenty of evidence of child lived there. 219 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 1: I mean, you can't get up in even the morning 220 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 1: without seeing the babies, things all over the yard. And 221 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:07,680 Speaker 1: I get that the mom was working and the dad 222 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:10,320 Speaker 1: was a stay at home dad, But how do you 223 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 1: come home at night after work, and I'm assuming this 224 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:15,960 Speaker 1: is working the right hour, the normal hours, how do 225 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:18,079 Speaker 1: you come home at night and not notice your baby 226 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 1: is not there? I mean, when did the baby get 227 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 1: in the car? And how do you go all day 228 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 1: and all night and nobody notices the baby is not there? 229 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 1: How does that happen? Joe Scott, what do we know? 230 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 1: I don't know. Scratching my head over this as well, 231 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 1: how do you go for twenty period dancy and not 232 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 1: having awareness that this child who you are responsible for 233 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:47,719 Speaker 1: taking care of is is not within Well, I'm not 234 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 1: gonna stay within arms reach my children. It was the case, 235 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 1: particularly at this age they were. But I don't understand 236 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 1: how you can go missing a child when you have 237 00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:58,959 Speaker 1: these two that are supposed to be responsible for the 238 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:01,839 Speaker 1: child and that period of time, that period of time, 239 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 1: if in fact that child was trapped in that car, 240 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:08,720 Speaker 1: it's sufficient amount of time for that child to have succumbed. 241 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:12,160 Speaker 1: Potentially in this environment, people think that if we're just 242 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 1: talking about a heat related death, we're thinking you know, Well, 243 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:17,079 Speaker 1: it's in the smoky mountains. It's nice and cool and all. 244 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 1: That's that's ridiculous. Uh. These cars heat up tremendously. And 245 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 1: here's another thing you've mentioned, this idea of maybe the 246 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 1: child was placed there after another event. People panic sometimes 247 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 1: they do, and they place the child in the in 248 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 1: the car. But what else could be involved here? Well, 249 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 1: let's think about you know, because I have to, I 250 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 1: have to. I have to reach out and try to 251 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 1: understand this as a parent. Are these people impaired some way? 252 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 1: Are they? Are they, you know, impaired some way that 253 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 1: would diminish their capacity to be able to go out 254 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 1: and take care of their child and track the child 255 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 1: down and say, gee, where's our child? Um, right now, 256 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 1: I think there's they're far more questions than there are answers, 257 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 1: you know. Uh. A neighbor who owns the near by 258 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 1: Laurel Springs Lodge Bed and Breakfast says that he walked 259 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 1: up to Laurel Avenue after he heard police and fire 260 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 1: trucks go by, and he says he saw the first 261 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 1: responders at the door of the house and then heard 262 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 1: somebody shrieking, either from pain or misery. Screaming out of pain. Um. 263 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 1: We also learned, as Robin Willinsky just said, people didn't 264 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 1: know exactly he was living there because it's made up 265 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 1: the neighborhoods, made up so much of rentals, so many 266 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 1: people come and go, so they didn't really know who 267 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 1: was there. But now we know it's the mayor's daughter 268 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 1: Jade and husband Anthony. The mom works during the day. 269 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 1: But still that doesn't explain to me, Robin, how she 270 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 1: didn't notice at night the baby wasn't there. Yeah, you 271 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: know again, was somebody drinking with somebody on drugs? Is 272 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 1: this also I'm sort of a cover up? You know? 273 00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:00,120 Speaker 1: People scream? Was it a fake scream? Did someone oh 274 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 1: my gosh, you know, my my, my baby has been killed? 275 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 1: And Nybie, they already knew that the baby was dead. 276 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:08,200 Speaker 1: I mean, who knows. It's It's very odd to me. 277 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 1: Was the scream even faked or was it really someone 278 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 1: screaming in a panic that their child was dead. I 279 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 1: think the circumstances it just does not add up. It's 280 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 1: too much time that this child is gone. This this 281 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 1: little boy was only two years old. You need to 282 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 1: tell me you lost track of them for twelve hours 283 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:29,240 Speaker 1: in a car. It makes no sense to now you're 284 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 1: saying twelve, you're saying twelve, we're saying twenty four. Where 285 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 1: are you getting the twelve? There were reports that he 286 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 1: was in the car for in the car at least 287 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 1: twelve hours. There are reports out in the media that 288 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 1: he was in the car for at least twelve hours, 289 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:47,080 Speaker 1: is what they're saying. M hm. So if the baby's 290 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 1: in the car twelve hours, that means overnight. But why 291 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 1: would you put the baby in the car at night 292 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 1: and then leave it? It makes to me it has 293 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 1: to be from the end of the work day at 294 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 1: least the day before, and the baby's found at two pm. Well, 295 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 1: that's the thing. If you do the math, let's say 296 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 1: at least twelve hours, Nancy, you're talking about someone putting 297 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:07,679 Speaker 1: the baby in the car. Let's say at two am 298 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:09,879 Speaker 1: and the wee hours when it's dark, and then the 299 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 1: baby is found at two pm. What happened, And that's 300 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:15,920 Speaker 1: at least twelve hour at least twelve hour time frame. 301 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:18,720 Speaker 1: It's very concious to me. Why are you putting a 302 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 1: child in the car at that at that time of night. 303 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:25,160 Speaker 1: That makes absolutely no sense. At this point in time 304 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:28,920 Speaker 1: the child's founded too, You're you're actually heading into the 305 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 1: hottest part of the day by that By that period 306 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 1: of time, if we backed that time up till the 307 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:38,000 Speaker 1: late afternoon or early evening the day before, you're still 308 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 1: looking at a child being without a parent, being strapped 309 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 1: in a car for that period of time, rebreathing their 310 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 1: on air in this environment. They don't have access to water, 311 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:49,239 Speaker 1: they don't have access to food. Yeah, so this is 312 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 1: very troubling, Nancy, very troubling. Well, this is what we 313 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 1: know at this hour. We have confirmed that Anthony and 314 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:59,119 Speaker 1: Jade Phillips have been indicted by a grand jury on 315 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:05,359 Speaker 1: charges of degree murder, aggravated child abuse, aggravated child neglect. 316 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:08,439 Speaker 1: Now what does that mean about the cause of death? 317 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:13,439 Speaker 1: The case remains open. And now on crime stories, Michael 318 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: Jarvis went to the St. Joseph Medical Center with the 319 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:20,639 Speaker 1: intention of killing doctor Todd Graham. Graham was orthopedic. Doctor 320 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:24,200 Speaker 1: Jarvis made that choice to take his life. Jarvis confronted 321 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:26,479 Speaker 1: Dr Graham in the parking lot when he would not 322 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 1: prescribe opioids for his wife's chronic pain. He did what 323 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:34,160 Speaker 1: we ask our doctors to do. Don't over prescribe opioids. 324 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:38,119 Speaker 1: Now we head to Indiana where a will respected and 325 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:46,000 Speaker 1: much beloved doctor is shot dead. Shot dead. Why? As 326 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 1: the evidence is being uncovered and the investigation goes on, 327 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:55,680 Speaker 1: it seems that the murderer may have been committed by 328 00:18:55,720 --> 00:19:05,440 Speaker 1: a man angry. This doctor wouldn't not prescribe opioids, opioids, painkillers, 329 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 1: dope like um, OxyContin, oxycode. Don't I think fentnyl all 330 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:18,240 Speaker 1: sorts of drugs equals opioids. Remember a Wizard of Oz 331 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 1: where Dorothy tries to cross the big field of poppies. 332 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 1: She got sleepy because they're poppies. Poppies make opium, opium, 333 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:32,160 Speaker 1: it's the natural derivative of opioid, that's where it comes from. 334 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:36,159 Speaker 1: Then they're synthetic opioids as well. But to shoot a 335 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:40,800 Speaker 1: doctor dead because he won't write a prescription? Okay? Robin 336 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:44,440 Speaker 1: will Lynskey joining me along with Joseph Scott Morgan, Robin 337 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 1: senior news anchor Blaze Radio Network. Robin, it's hard for 338 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 1: me to take in. First of all, I've never asked 339 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:54,719 Speaker 1: for opioids. But second, if a doctor, I remember when 340 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:56,720 Speaker 1: a doctor wouldn't give me what I wanted for John 341 00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:02,200 Speaker 1: David's skin issue. Uh, it was like a death dating 342 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 1: virus was eating his foot, okay, and I did not 343 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 1: like it one bit. I didn't shoot her in the head, 344 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 1: all right. In a couple of weeks. In a couple 345 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:13,439 Speaker 1: of weeks it went away, no thanks to her. But 346 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 1: it kind of got well on its own. But what 347 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 1: happened this is unbelievable in that this the shooter. Either 348 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 1: his wife was in so much pain he was off 349 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:31,959 Speaker 1: the deep end and really wanted the pills for his wife, 350 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:34,919 Speaker 1: or he was on the brink because he was the 351 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:37,879 Speaker 1: addict and he was taking the pills. That's what I 352 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 1: believe is what is in play here, that maybe he 353 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 1: was dipping into his wife's little pill box and he 354 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 1: went off the deep end wanting the medication. Uh. He 355 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 1: tracks down this doctor Nancy uh Todd Graham fifty six 356 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:54,359 Speaker 1: years old. He's a married man with three kids, and 357 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:57,320 Speaker 1: he goes to this appointment and the doctor's like, Nope, 358 00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 1: no more medicine for you. And he was are upset. 359 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:05,880 Speaker 1: And apparently this Michael Jarvis character is lurking in the 360 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 1: parking lot. You know how there's these medical office buildings 361 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:10,960 Speaker 1: and the next door is the rehab center, and it's 362 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 1: all kind of like an office complex. He apparently is 363 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:17,119 Speaker 1: lurking and waiting in the parking lot, and when the 364 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:20,160 Speaker 1: doctor goes from one office building to the other, they 365 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:23,440 Speaker 1: have this big confrontation and argument in the parking lot, 366 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 1: and there are other people around, and the guy actually 367 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:28,200 Speaker 1: says to the witches, ses, oh, you better get out 368 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:30,400 Speaker 1: of here, and then he goes and he shoots the doctor, 369 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:36,440 Speaker 1: whoa Dr Todd Graham, fifty six year old, very beloved 370 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 1: doctor was shot dead by Michael Jarvis of Mishawaka. St. 371 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 1: Joseph County. Authorities say, and the shooting took places Robin 372 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:50,120 Speaker 1: Willinsky is telling us in the parking lot it's St. 373 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:54,840 Speaker 1: Joseph Rehab Institute and that is where near where Dr 374 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:58,920 Speaker 1: Todd Graham worked at South Bend Orthopedics. Now that's giving 375 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 1: me a clue right there that he's an orthopedic surgeon 376 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:06,399 Speaker 1: or an orthopedic doctor. Where you go from back pain 377 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 1: or knee pain. Um Jervis's wife had had a ten 378 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 1: forty five am appointment that morning with the doctor. Graham 379 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:21,359 Speaker 1: told the couple that he would not prescribe any opioid 380 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:25,440 Speaker 1: drugs and Jarvis got crazy and they had an argument 381 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:32,119 Speaker 1: right then and there in the office. Jarvis came back 382 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 1: while the doctor was going from the orthopedic building to 383 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 1: the rehab right there, as Robin Wilinsky's telling you, they 384 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:42,639 Speaker 1: started an argument again, Well they didn't. I guarantee you 385 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:46,359 Speaker 1: it was the husband that started the argument. Then Jarvis 386 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 1: follows Dr Graham as he went into the other building. 387 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:52,480 Speaker 1: That must have been a horrible feeling, you know, Joseph S. 388 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 1: Gott Morgan Death Investigator, when you know the person is 389 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 1: following you, when you know they won't quit arguing. But 390 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,280 Speaker 1: how could the doctor have known this guy was going 391 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:08,480 Speaker 1: to erupt into gunfire? He has he has no no 392 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:11,040 Speaker 1: idea that this is coming, I would imagine, Nancy. However, 393 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 1: doctors in this environment deal with agitated families and UH 394 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:18,920 Speaker 1: and certainly patients on a regular basis, and many times 395 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:22,120 Speaker 1: they'll they'll remove themselves from circumstances to try to defuse 396 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 1: the situation. Unfortunately, in this particular instance, that didn't happen. 397 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 1: This guy actually tracked him down. And going back to 398 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:31,080 Speaker 1: what Robin said, I found it very interesting that prior 399 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:37,360 Speaker 1: to shooting and killing this man, the shooter actually stated, 400 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,119 Speaker 1: you guys better get out of here. So you know 401 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:41,960 Speaker 1: that that tells me. You know that he knows that 402 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,439 Speaker 1: trouble's coming, at least the shooter does. Now whether or 403 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 1: not the doctor was aware of that, you know what 404 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 1: that means. That means there goes any suggestion that this 405 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 1: was just an angry argument. He pulls a gun that 406 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:55,800 Speaker 1: he happens to have stuck down his pants, but to 407 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:58,880 Speaker 1: tell people standing around, hey, you better leave right now. 408 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 1: He knew he played in for this to happen. Now 409 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:05,439 Speaker 1: we look to the online obituary for Graham and it 410 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:09,880 Speaker 1: says that he is survived by a wife and three children. 411 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:13,920 Speaker 1: The doctor has a wife and three children. I mean, 412 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 1: you go to work one day, Robin Wilinsky, and you 413 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:22,520 Speaker 1: come home your children or without their father. You're a 414 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:26,359 Speaker 1: widow or you're a widow bam because your husband wouldn't 415 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 1: prescribe opioids. And that's how it happens, Robin. I mean, 416 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:33,760 Speaker 1: I remember I waved goodbye to Keith. He held his 417 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 1: arm out in the window and drove away. I never 418 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:40,879 Speaker 1: saw him again. That that was it, And the shock 419 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:44,719 Speaker 1: this family must be going through. Robin, Yeah, you know, 420 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:46,680 Speaker 1: I get the chills when you when you talk about 421 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:50,680 Speaker 1: your personal experience, it's really chilling. You know. It reminds 422 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 1: me of the people on the morning of nine eleven 423 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 1: that never kissed their loved one goodbye as well. It's 424 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:59,080 Speaker 1: just a terrible feeling. Keep in mind, being an orthopedic 425 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:02,480 Speaker 1: surgeon or a dog as a pretty low risk profession. 426 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 1: I mean, you think of professions that are high risk, Nancy, 427 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:08,439 Speaker 1: that being an orthopedic doctor is not on the list. Well, 428 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:12,120 Speaker 1: guess what I found out. Robin, a Notre Dame University spokesperson, 429 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 1: said that Jarvis the shooter was an quote on call, 430 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:22,919 Speaker 1: part time parking attendant and groundskeeper and Notre Dame University, 431 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 1: and that Dr Graham was a consulting physician at the school. 432 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:33,719 Speaker 1: So I wonder if somehow he as the grounds person. 433 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:36,480 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm just thinking about at our school or 434 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 1: my church, or I remember it um at hl N, 435 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 1: CNN or and at the d a's office. I was 436 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 1: friends with everybody that was in quote operations. They would 437 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:51,359 Speaker 1: fix you know, the cameras are in the d a's office. 438 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 1: They would fix every all the machinery that we use, 439 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:58,679 Speaker 1: the copy machines, the everything, uh things you used at 440 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:03,120 Speaker 1: grand jury to present cass You get to know these 441 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 1: people that you work with, their your colleagues. I wonder 442 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 1: if that's how they met, and I mean they had 443 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:10,960 Speaker 1: to be. They both worked there and Notre Damon two 444 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:14,720 Speaker 1: very different capacities, and it's very it's very possible that 445 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:17,840 Speaker 1: he was stalking him, knew his schedule, knew that he 446 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:19,919 Speaker 1: went from one building to the next building, knew all 447 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 1: the different places where he was a consultant and had 448 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:26,160 Speaker 1: his schedule, and you know, typical stalker behavior. And then 449 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:29,120 Speaker 1: think about this, he was probably really kicked off this 450 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 1: guy if he's the drug addict and not the wife. 451 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,640 Speaker 1: If he's the one who's addicted, he's probably really desperate 452 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:37,080 Speaker 1: for his drugs and then takes the gun with him. 453 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:39,720 Speaker 1: To me, it sounds like premeditation. You know, he's actually 454 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 1: saw the wife that morning. Doctor Ta Graham saw Jarvis's 455 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 1: wife there at South Bend Orthopedics that morning, but by 456 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,199 Speaker 1: all accounts, the wife had no idea what her husband 457 00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 1: was about to do. I mean, we can speculate, but 458 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:56,679 Speaker 1: I find it really hard to believe he did this 459 00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 1: because his wife was in so much pain. I mean, 460 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 1: I would have just go onto a different doctor. You know, 461 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:06,200 Speaker 1: I'm not one for doctor shopping. If one doctor won't help, 462 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:09,679 Speaker 1: you're I mean, I'm constantly telling my mom. Both of 463 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:12,119 Speaker 1: you have met my mom, let's go to a different 464 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 1: doctor because she's always in so much pain with her 465 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 1: legs and back. Let's just try something else. Let's do 466 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,439 Speaker 1: something else. I would never dream of hunting down the 467 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:22,200 Speaker 1: one doctor in the parking lot and shoot him in 468 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 1: the head for Pete's sake. So at this point we're 469 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 1: trying to figure out was Jarvis a drug fiend, had 470 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 1: he been getting illegal opioids? Was his wife involved in 471 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:40,679 Speaker 1: any way? As this mom prepares for life without her 472 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,200 Speaker 1: husband and the children face the rest of their lives 473 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:49,160 Speaker 1: without their father, what does what do we mean by opioid? 474 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:55,920 Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan, Well, opioid. As you mentioned earlier, Nancy, 475 00:27:56,320 --> 00:28:00,879 Speaker 1: most opioids are creating a lab. Now there their synthetic 476 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 1: versions of the original opioids that you get from the 477 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:09,159 Speaker 1: poppy plant. This highly, highly addictive medication that's meant to 478 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:13,119 Speaker 1: knock down pain. When I say highly addictive, it is 479 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 1: as addictive as many drugs that we see on the streets, 480 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:19,680 Speaker 1: particularly like heroin. People go on and on about the 481 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:24,040 Speaker 1: heroin problem in the country. Opioids, relative to prescription medications 482 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,480 Speaker 1: are just as dangerous. And this is the problem when 483 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 1: people are denied these drugs. When you're telling someone that's 484 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 1: dependent upon them no, this will cause them to take 485 00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,920 Speaker 1: desperate measures many times. And so many people are on 486 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 1: these meds. Now. Uh, it sounds like this Dr Jarvis 487 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:47,400 Speaker 1: uh took a step uh to say no to somebody 488 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 1: that he dare tell this guy no. I'm with Robin 489 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 1: on this. I think that uh, you know, thinking about 490 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 1: this he you're trying to tell me that he stepped 491 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,200 Speaker 1: into the reach on behalf of his wife. It sounds 492 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,840 Speaker 1: like somebody was very, very desperate for drug and this 493 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 1: absence of drugs can drive them to insanity many times 494 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 1: and do things that they wouldn't normally do. But this 495 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 1: guy had a weapon with him always. What are we 496 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 1: talking about? Well, I think probably uh one of the 497 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,680 Speaker 1: things that comes to mind most frequently. People think about 498 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:22,320 Speaker 1: things like OxyContin, which is prescribed for instance, Uh in 499 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 1: his case, this doctor's case, he would give this traditionally 500 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 1: to patients that had undergone some type of orthopedic surgeries. 501 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:31,640 Speaker 1: Keep in mind, this guy works on knees and shoulders 502 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 1: and backs and necks and all these sorts of things. 503 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 1: He would give them these medications like oxyconton to knock 504 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:40,960 Speaker 1: the pain down, just so that the person can get 505 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 1: into rehab and begin to strengthen that muscle and that 506 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 1: structure around that bone that has been fixed and the 507 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:50,000 Speaker 1: This is intense pain that these people go through. I've 508 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 1: had several surgeries on my shoulders and that sort of thing, 509 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 1: and the pain is unbearable many times, and sometimes you 510 00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:59,760 Speaker 1: need something to help. This is what I've learned. Opium 511 00:29:59,880 --> 00:30:06,200 Speaker 1: is the hardened juice from the unripe seed pods of 512 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 1: poppy plants. It's a yellowish brown or brownish black colored substance. 513 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 1: It can be solid or sticky. Medical professionals prescribe it 514 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:20,960 Speaker 1: for pain killing, and now it's been being used for recreation. 515 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:24,640 Speaker 1: It creates a euphoric and calming state. I'm talking about heroin, 516 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 1: big o, black stuff, block, gum, hot, dover powder. I mean, 517 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:33,200 Speaker 1: there's a million names, dope, smack ahs, train thunder, black tar, China, 518 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:36,800 Speaker 1: white horse, junk, and he Freese, brown sugar, Henry horse, skag, 519 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:40,720 Speaker 1: hero hell dust. It includes fetinol, which on the street 520 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:45,720 Speaker 1: is Apache, China Girl, China, White, Dance, Fever, Friend, Good Fellow, King, Ivory, 521 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 1: Murder eight, TN T Tango Cash. I mean it goes 522 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 1: on then morphine, which is a painkiller. It's a primary 523 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 1: derivative of opien. M Miss Emma, Monkey White Stuff Dreamer. 524 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:04,280 Speaker 1: Then you got codeine, hydro, codeon oxy, code own for 525 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:08,160 Speaker 1: code own, Schoolboy coughs or T three's which is tailing 526 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:12,600 Speaker 1: all plus three with codeine. Then you got hydro codon 527 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 1: VIGs vico norco hydro. Then you got oxycodon, ox oxycotton 528 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:21,959 Speaker 1: oxy set. I mean, there have you ever heard of 529 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,520 Speaker 1: any of those? Robin Willinski a few. I've heard of 530 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,200 Speaker 1: a few of them, and I had some couple of those. 531 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 1: Let me tell you something. I had some massive dental 532 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 1: work done in the last month, and the doctor one 533 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 1: of the medications was one of those on your list, 534 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 1: and I didn't even fill it. I was just afraid, 535 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 1: you know, after my knee surgery, which you know, you 536 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:43,840 Speaker 1: know how that happened, I've have broken one foot trying 537 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 1: to spy on the babysitter who was taking care of 538 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 1: the twins. Okay, I did not learn my lesson, Okay, 539 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 1: then flash forward a couple of years Lucay a soccer practice. Lucy, 540 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 1: and I'm convinced someone will try to kidnap her, and 541 00:31:57,480 --> 00:31:59,960 Speaker 1: um if I leave. But I needed to go John, 542 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:02,480 Speaker 1: That's my only chance to jog while she was at 543 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,480 Speaker 1: soccer practice. So I find a stretch of road where 544 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:08,120 Speaker 1: I can jog, and if I go back and forth 545 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:10,000 Speaker 1: over and over and over in the same spot, I 546 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 1: can keep my eye on her the entire time. Little 547 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 1: does she know, I stuck a bow in her head 548 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,239 Speaker 1: just so I could identify her at a distance. So 549 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:21,240 Speaker 1: anyway to get to that stretch of road, I had 550 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:24,479 Speaker 1: to jump over a fence. So I climb up the fence. 551 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:26,840 Speaker 1: It's about four and a half feet tall, and I 552 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,440 Speaker 1: don't know what I was thinking and jump down from 553 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:33,280 Speaker 1: the top. Okay, goodbye. A c l that was ripped 554 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:38,240 Speaker 1: right along with the meniscus, and they offered me a painkiller. 555 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 1: My husband went to the you know the doctor, I 556 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 1: mean the pharmacy and brought it home. I'm like, ummm, 557 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:46,640 Speaker 1: if the twins see that, they'll be dope things by tonight. 558 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:48,680 Speaker 1: Just flush it right down the como, don't even put 559 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 1: it in a trash. I was so freaked out about 560 00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:57,600 Speaker 1: an opioid no oxy content, you know, so it gets 561 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:05,480 Speaker 1: ahold of you. Perfectly normal, everyday workaday people, parents, white 562 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,760 Speaker 1: collar executives, you name it, get hooked on this and 563 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:13,800 Speaker 1: they managed to function seemingly normally hooked on opi Well, 564 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:19,320 Speaker 1: this is what I know. Two families completely destroyed because 565 00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:24,520 Speaker 1: of drugs and now on crime stories. Cook County Sheriff's 566 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 1: officers identified James Byron Hockinson as a victim of notorious 567 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,720 Speaker 1: serial killer John Wayne Gaycey. With Hawkinson's discovery, there are 568 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,840 Speaker 1: now six gay Cy victims who still need to be identified. 569 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:37,520 Speaker 1: He was killing so many people that he was burying 570 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 1: people on top of each other. Jimmy Hockinson was just 571 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:45,000 Speaker 1: sixteen when he left Minnesota, arrived in Chicago, and disappeared. 572 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:51,520 Speaker 1: John Wayne Gaycey a name that has instilled fear for years. 573 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:56,240 Speaker 1: How many little boys did he kill? Did he murder? 574 00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:00,960 Speaker 1: Often called the clown killer because he would show up 575 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:04,320 Speaker 1: at birthday parties and events as a clown and then 576 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:10,880 Speaker 1: lure little boys to horrific molestations and death. Murder of 577 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:16,720 Speaker 1: little boys. The remains found all in the crawl spaces 578 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:22,839 Speaker 1: of his home John Wayne Gacey. Yes, we've heard of him, 579 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:27,400 Speaker 1: but now, believe it or not, breaking news connected to 580 00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:31,759 Speaker 1: John Wayne Gacey. And who better to discuss it, to 581 00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:34,319 Speaker 1: analyze it, to break it down and put it back 582 00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 1: together again then death investigator forensic professor at Jacksonville State University, 583 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,520 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan. You know, I try to put John 584 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:47,120 Speaker 1: Wayne Gayze's name out of my mind. Okay, I don't 585 00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 1: want to buy his art. I don't want anything to 586 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,760 Speaker 1: do with him. Why is he rearing his ugly head 587 00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:57,200 Speaker 1: again now, Joe Scott, after all of these years, Nancy, 588 00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:01,120 Speaker 1: a bright spot. We've got a young a young boy 589 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 1: at the time, he was only sixteen, that has been missing, 590 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 1: has finally been identified forty years later, been identified, and 591 00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:14,759 Speaker 1: his family now knows what happened to him and where 592 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:18,480 Speaker 1: he wound up. It's very sad, but again it's one 593 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:20,640 Speaker 1: of the things that we're about in forensic science, and 594 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:25,480 Speaker 1: that is closure, closure, and the fact that this monster 595 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:31,000 Speaker 1: got his hands on this poor young man. Hopefully the 596 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:34,239 Speaker 1: family will have some peace and rest now after all 597 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:37,160 Speaker 1: of this time. John Wayne Gaycey is one of the 598 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:42,480 Speaker 1: most prolific serial killers in US history. From nineteen seventy 599 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:48,640 Speaker 1: two to nineteen seventy eight, he lured or forced thirty three, 600 00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:55,200 Speaker 1: repeat thirty three boys that we know of, and let 601 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:57,319 Speaker 1: me stress that how many more are there that we 602 00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:03,120 Speaker 1: don't know about? Lured or forced them? Many of these 603 00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:08,000 Speaker 1: boys he employed at his so called construction business, lured 604 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:11,280 Speaker 1: them to his home in the suburbs outside of Chicago, 605 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:15,600 Speaker 1: where he murdered them, sexually assaulting his victims as he 606 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:20,040 Speaker 1: tortured them to death, and then buried all but six 607 00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:25,000 Speaker 1: of them beneath his own home. Neighbors there in Norwood 608 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:29,640 Speaker 1: Park Township, Illinois, knew Gaycy for appearances at children's parties 609 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:35,120 Speaker 1: where he performed as Pogo the Clown, a character he 610 00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:41,359 Speaker 1: later painted and sketched many many times behind bars. Now, 611 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:45,919 Speaker 1: he was convicted of killing thirty three people. But here's 612 00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:49,880 Speaker 1: the problem. Identifying the remains of all of his victims 613 00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:55,880 Speaker 1: has taken decades. Recently, we've been helped with advances in 614 00:36:56,000 --> 00:37:02,719 Speaker 1: forensic technology and DNA deox ribo to cleric acid. This 615 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:07,719 Speaker 1: latest victim, I wish you could see his face. James 616 00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:13,920 Speaker 1: Byron Hagginson, just had turned sixteen, was murdered by John 617 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:19,160 Speaker 1: Wayne Gacy in nineteen seventy six, and as we go 618 00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:22,560 Speaker 1: to air here on Sirius XM today, his remains have 619 00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:28,120 Speaker 1: finally been identified. Investigators using DNA evidence to i d 620 00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:34,800 Speaker 1: one of seven remaining unknown victims victims of John Wayne 621 00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:41,480 Speaker 1: Gacy serial killer who raped and murdered dozens dozens of boys, 622 00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:47,000 Speaker 1: labeled the Killer Clown or the Clown Killer. Cook County 623 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:52,960 Speaker 1: Sheriff's Department say the newly identified victim, James Byron Hackinson, 624 00:37:54,880 --> 00:38:00,560 Speaker 1: was killed the summer of nineteen seventies six. Police found 625 00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:04,919 Speaker 1: the body in twenty six other dead bodies and gay 626 00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:10,120 Speaker 1: Sy's crawl space of his home in December se All 627 00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:15,400 Speaker 1: this time, all this time, his parents have wondered where 628 00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:20,160 Speaker 1: he was. Joe Scott, can you imagine? No, no, I can't. 629 00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:23,560 Speaker 1: And his his mom is the age of your boy. Yeah, 630 00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:27,319 Speaker 1: yeah it is. And I it's just absolutely heartbreaking. Uh 631 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:31,640 Speaker 1: this this Uh poor kids mom went to her grave 632 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:34,359 Speaker 1: I think in two thousand seven or two thousand eight, 633 00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:38,200 Speaker 1: not knowing whatever happened to her son. But one of 634 00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:40,520 Speaker 1: the really compelling parts of this is that there was 635 00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:44,279 Speaker 1: a nephew in this family who had never met this 636 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:50,040 Speaker 1: young man. Uh, he wasn't even born yet. And amazingly enough, 637 00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:53,600 Speaker 1: the young man uh just became fascinated with his case 638 00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:55,799 Speaker 1: and kept pushing and pushing and pushing the rest of 639 00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:58,000 Speaker 1: the family to get behind his efforts to get the 640 00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:02,040 Speaker 1: body note identified in. What happened was they had an 641 00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:05,719 Speaker 1: unidentified body. As you had mentioned, there were several of them, 642 00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:09,840 Speaker 1: and because of this kid's mother, who was the sister 643 00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:13,800 Speaker 1: to the victim and a brother, they got familiar DNA 644 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:16,319 Speaker 1: and compared it and that came to the conclusion that 645 00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:19,640 Speaker 1: there was very strong evidence that the remains of this 646 00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:24,239 Speaker 1: young man were actually actually their their long lost brother 647 00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:26,880 Speaker 1: that had passed away at the hands of Gaysy, that 648 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:30,920 Speaker 1: was murdered, that was slaughtered and placed underneath this man's 649 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:35,279 Speaker 1: house with all of these other victims. It just it 650 00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:38,400 Speaker 1: just hurts me so much for the mom to have 651 00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:43,480 Speaker 1: gone her whole life not knowing what happened, just thinking 652 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:47,319 Speaker 1: her son must have run away, not having any idea 653 00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:53,440 Speaker 1: where he was. I mean, it's just heartbreaking, and I 654 00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:57,040 Speaker 1: wonder Joseph Scott Morgan, you're the perfect person to ask. 655 00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:01,279 Speaker 1: I know so many bodies were found in the crawl 656 00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:05,719 Speaker 1: space of his home. What a freaky feeling that must 657 00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:09,239 Speaker 1: be to come home and know your murder victims are 658 00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:11,879 Speaker 1: buried in your house. That must have been some sort 659 00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:15,680 Speaker 1: of a sick thrill that he got from burying in 660 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:20,560 Speaker 1: all of them there. It is owned a home, But 661 00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:23,399 Speaker 1: I can't help but believe Joseph Scott that there are 662 00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:27,200 Speaker 1: other bodies in other places that are right now still 663 00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:31,080 Speaker 1: not credited to him. Oh yeah, I would imagine, Nancy, 664 00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:35,320 Speaker 1: that there are uh that you know that this person 665 00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:40,759 Speaker 1: Gacy hesitated calling a man, would go and treat other 666 00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:44,040 Speaker 1: human beings like pieces of garbage and discard them, uh 667 00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:46,360 Speaker 1: and throw them away beneath his house and no telling 668 00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:48,759 Speaker 1: how many are out just out there that no one 669 00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:51,120 Speaker 1: will ever know about. He took that to his grave 670 00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:54,880 Speaker 1: when he, you know, received the death penalty and finally 671 00:40:55,000 --> 00:41:00,920 Speaker 1: was lethally injected. Um. Curious about this. He took all 672 00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:03,040 Speaker 1: of these bodies and this is not a big house 673 00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:05,160 Speaker 1: that we're talking about, Nancy. This is kind of a 674 00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:08,480 Speaker 1: ranch style home. It doesn't obviously have a basement. We're 675 00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:11,040 Speaker 1: talking about across space. He would have to enter in 676 00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:14,640 Speaker 1: through a small hatch in the floor and dragged these 677 00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:17,399 Speaker 1: bodies beneath the house. And after a period of time 678 00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:20,120 Speaker 1: he had so many bodies then beneath his house, he 679 00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:23,440 Speaker 1: had to begin stacking the bodies on top of one another. 680 00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:27,920 Speaker 1: And interestingly enough, before this young man's body was identified, 681 00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:30,400 Speaker 1: there was another body that was identified there was not 682 00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:34,359 Speaker 1: too far away, uh from from this young man's body, 683 00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:36,640 Speaker 1: and that that body was identified in two thousand eleven, 684 00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:41,080 Speaker 1: and again these numbers began to be whittled down. They 685 00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:43,640 Speaker 1: the police do not believe that all of his victims 686 00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:45,759 Speaker 1: were beneath the four boards of that house. They still 687 00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:47,879 Speaker 1: think that probably three or four are still out there, 688 00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:51,799 Speaker 1: but they credit them too Gaycy. The problem with this 689 00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:56,040 Speaker 1: is as the bodies begin to decompose, it's kind of 690 00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:59,040 Speaker 1: like a layer cake, if you will, and if it collapses, 691 00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:01,520 Speaker 1: it collapses in note itself. And this is a huge 692 00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:04,680 Speaker 1: problem for investigators because it becomes what we referred to 693 00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:08,000 Speaker 1: as stratified, and you get what's referred to as well 694 00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:12,280 Speaker 1: as co mingling of remains, that is, when the skeleton 695 00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:15,880 Speaker 1: becomes disarticulated. It begins, just by the nature of things, 696 00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:19,319 Speaker 1: to mix and mingle with other skeletons, and it makes 697 00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:22,400 Speaker 1: it a real nightmare for these investigators. Think back to 698 00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:25,879 Speaker 1: when this happened DNA was not even on the horizon. 699 00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:29,879 Speaker 1: It didn't come into even enter into our lexicon really 700 00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:32,520 Speaker 1: as far as a crime solving tool until like eighty 701 00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:36,239 Speaker 1: five when Sir Alec Jeffers over in England used it 702 00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:40,319 Speaker 1: to solve solve a case of a double homicide ray 703 00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:43,480 Speaker 1: homicide over there. And it's only been until recently that 704 00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:45,359 Speaker 1: we've been able to use this new science. I think 705 00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:47,480 Speaker 1: it gives us a lot of hope moving forward that 706 00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:50,319 Speaker 1: we can bring closure. Well what about this. There are 707 00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:55,560 Speaker 1: still six unidentified victims killed by John Wayne Gacy, and 708 00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:59,799 Speaker 1: of course he's never given it up. Who you know, 709 00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:02,400 Speaker 1: who the victims were, how he met them, how he 710 00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:06,080 Speaker 1: kidnapped them or tortured them or lured them. Nothing. And 711 00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:09,600 Speaker 1: those are six bodies that we know of. I still 712 00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:15,000 Speaker 1: think that somewhere he's got another cash of bodies somewhere 713 00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:18,919 Speaker 1: and then, for whatever reason, started hiding them in his home. 714 00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:23,040 Speaker 1: I guarantee you that there are bodies somewhere else, but 715 00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:26,640 Speaker 1: no one knows where or when a body is found. 716 00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:29,560 Speaker 1: It's just like, oh we found this, by nobody connects 717 00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:32,600 Speaker 1: it back to John Wayne Gacy. You know what I wonder, 718 00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:35,680 Speaker 1: I don't think it's better that way, But I wonder 719 00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:38,239 Speaker 1: if it's better that way because the parents don't have 720 00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:43,080 Speaker 1: to then think about what their child endured before his death. 721 00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:47,520 Speaker 1: I mean, I still have cases that I investigated or 722 00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:52,239 Speaker 1: prosecuted and or prosecuted or covered that's still to this 723 00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:57,680 Speaker 1: day get me so upset. Like Shasta and Dylan Grony, 724 00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:00,839 Speaker 1: I will never ever get over what happened in that 725 00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:04,120 Speaker 1: case and many many, many other ones, what the little 726 00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:10,239 Speaker 1: victims endured. But for today, for today, we have the 727 00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:18,440 Speaker 1: resolution on one more case. Robin Lewinsky, Joseph Scott Morgan, 728 00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:24,800 Speaker 1: thank you, Nancy Grace Crime Stories, signing off, goodbye friend