1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never told You. From how Supports 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen 3 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:20,640 Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline. And this episode on women in cartooning 4 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 1: initially started off as just a run of the mill 5 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:30,160 Speaker 1: podcast episode. We ran across a fantastic article by Lisa 6 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 1: Hicks over at Collector's Weekly, which is mostly an interview 7 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:38,879 Speaker 1: with Trina Robbins, who is a cartoon historian and has 8 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:42,600 Speaker 1: written a number of books specifically focusing on women in cartoons, 9 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 1: most recently Pretty and Ink. And we started reading the 10 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 1: article and we quickly realized, oh, this is not just 11 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 1: one podcast. No, I mean it's It would be impossible 12 00:00:55,360 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 1: to condense cartooning and comic and comic book history, especially 13 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:03,960 Speaker 1: in regards to women in into just one episode, especially 14 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 1: when you, guys, there's an entire Golden era of comics 15 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: that we have to tell you about, not to mention 16 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 1: all of the interesting stuff going on today in the industry. 17 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:17,760 Speaker 1: So for part one of our look at women in 18 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: Cartooning and comics, we're going to go back in history 19 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:24,959 Speaker 1: and sort of lay the groundwork leading up to and 20 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 1: through the Golden Era of comics. And yeah, we are 21 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:34,959 Speaker 1: combining like cartoon strips with actual comic books. And for comics, 22 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:38,559 Speaker 1: just one note on that we're really focusing on the creators. 23 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 1: We're not looking so much at the characters in them. 24 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 1: But of course the creator's influence the kinds of characters 25 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 1: that even see reflected in strips and books. So pardon 26 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 1: is though for purists out there, for us condensing both 27 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 1: of them together. But first of all, let's talk about 28 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 1: quite possibly the very first published female cartoonist in the 29 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 1: United States. Yeah, Rose O'Neill might be best known for 30 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:12,919 Speaker 1: her CuPy drawings that she made, those little cherub cheeked 31 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 1: children that actually, my mother finds incredibly creepy. She can't 32 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 1: even say the word quepi without making a face. Unfortunately, 33 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:23,080 Speaker 1: you're kind of making a face too, well, I know, 34 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 1: I just yeah, I don't understand all the time my 35 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 1: mother thinking things that are are weird. But anyway, so 36 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 1: let's get back to Rose O'Neil and get off of 37 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:35,680 Speaker 1: Sally So At thirteen, at the tender age of thirteen, 38 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 1: Rose O'Neill won an art contest prize for her drawings, 39 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:42,960 Speaker 1: and when the judges realized that the winner of the 40 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 1: prize was a girl. They made her sit down and 41 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 1: reproduce the drawing in front of them, because surely a 42 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 1: girl would not be talented enough. But she proved those 43 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 1: people wrong. Yeah, and she was highly successful as an 44 00:02:55,560 --> 00:03:00,360 Speaker 1: illustrator from a young age. So when she was twenty 45 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 1: years old, Truth Magazine bought and published or comic strip, 46 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:10,360 Speaker 1: the Old Subscriber Calls, which is possibly the first published 47 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 1: comic strip by a woman, and The Old Subscriber Calls 48 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 1: is essentially a quick strip about an old magazine subscriber 49 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 1: coming to the magazine office and he's not very happy 50 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 1: about it, and there's this tidal wave that also comes in, 51 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 1: and then he leaves, and the publishers like, well, I'm 52 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: glad we survived that one. Well, the joke, which I 53 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 1: love so much and appreciate having worked at a newspaper 54 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 1: for four years, is that the whole punch line is 55 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 1: that when the subscriber comes in and he's so angry 56 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 1: and he beats at the editor, the editor doesn't care 57 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 1: that he just got himself beaten up. He's just glad 58 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 1: the subscriber didn't cancel his subscription and they didn't lose 59 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: that revenue. And the fact that I chuckled out loud 60 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: at that that cartoon from I love that. It's still 61 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 1: it's still totally relevant because I feel like people in 62 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 1: newspapers today are still like, just don't unsubscribe, please, You're 63 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 1: an old soul, Caroline. I guess so Caroline loves those 64 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 1: nineteenth century punch line exactly, I really do. Uh so. 65 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 1: But before this, O'Neill had already been selling her illustrations 66 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:27,279 Speaker 1: to other magazines and newspapers, so she was at twenties 67 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:29,359 Speaker 1: sort of an old hand at this. But we do 68 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 1: have to look at the context of the time also 69 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 1: in which this is going on. For instance, you have R. 70 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 1: F outcos Hogan's Alley, better known as The Yellow Kid, 71 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 1: which was published in Joseph Pullitzer, Yes that Pulleitzer, his 72 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:46,599 Speaker 1: New York World newspaper, and The Yellow Kid was the 73 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:50,840 Speaker 1: first commercially successful comic strip published in a newspaper, which 74 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:55,239 Speaker 1: was quickly followed up by strips like Little Nemo in Slumberland, 75 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 1: Crazy Cat, et cetera. And these newspaper comic strips would 76 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:04,799 Speaker 1: remain the predominant form of comics until the nineteen thirties, 77 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:08,719 Speaker 1: when comic books would slowly come around even though of 78 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 1: course in the newspapers you would still have cartoon strips. 79 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 1: But while all of this is happening at the close 80 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 1: of the nineteenth century, plenty of other women in addition 81 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:22,680 Speaker 1: to Rose O'Neill, we're getting in on the comic strip 82 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:24,360 Speaker 1: game as well. Because you have to keep in mind 83 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:29,279 Speaker 1: too that with Pulitzer and Hurst and all these big 84 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:32,040 Speaker 1: names in publishing rising up, and you have these newspaper 85 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 1: wars going on in print journalism or if you could 86 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 1: call it journalism really at the time, but print publishing 87 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 1: was so huge, and there were so many different outlets 88 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 1: for people to get their cartoons published. So you have 89 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:55,160 Speaker 1: people like Grace Gebby and her cartoon Naughty Tootles. Trina Robbins, 90 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:59,720 Speaker 1: the comic historian, attributes quote setting the tone for comic 91 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 1: strip for the next thirty years. And so she says 92 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 1: that because a lot of the early comic strips that 93 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 1: you see heavily feature these chubby cheeked babies and kids 94 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: just goofing around, and Caroline, while you were busy chuckling 95 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 1: at the old subscriber calls, I was juggling at Naughty 96 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 1: Tootles strips, which is essentially about this naughty toddler girl 97 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 1: who always disobeys her mom and miss pronounces woods, so 98 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 1: she's naughty Tootles and she like sprays her mom with 99 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: a hose and it's always getting into all sorts of twubble. 100 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:43,039 Speaker 1: I hate when toddlers spraying me with hoses. Yeah, who doesn't, 101 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 1: Caroline um? Because of this, this Grace gave me character. 102 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 1: She used went by a pen named Grace Drayton, which 103 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 1: I believe was her married name. She also went on 104 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 1: to create Bobby Blake and Dolly Drake, Dottie Dimple, Captain Kiddo, 105 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 1: which I would like to add as a forced nickname 106 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 1: that other people must call me. And that's Captain with 107 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 1: a K mind you, of course it is, and of 108 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 1: course Dottie Dingle. But she also drew the Campbell soup kids, 109 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: and this style actually inspired Rose O'Neill and her CuPy dolls. 110 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 1: And QP is short for Cupid, but that's also CUPI 111 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 1: with a K, And I like how she said that 112 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 1: these Cubi dolls came to her one night in a dream. 113 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 1: But there is one thing worth noting about all these 114 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:34,679 Speaker 1: chubby cheeked kids in these early comic strips. Uh, there's 115 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 1: a paper that Trina Robbins wrote examining the different styles 116 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 1: of male and female characters in comic strips and cartoons, 117 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 1: sort of sexual dimorphism, and how how that has been 118 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 1: depicted in illustration. And she talks about how during this 119 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 1: era it wasn't just women drawing these chubby cheeked kids either. 120 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 1: It was just kind of the thing. Everybody thought they 121 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 1: were adorable. So you also had guys too, who were 122 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 1: drawing their own dotty dingles. And by nineteen hundred there 123 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 1: are a number of women drawn comics in the Sunday newspapers. 124 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 1: You've got Louise Corals as buns puns, Grace Casson's Tin 125 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 1: Tin Tales for Children, and Agnes Reply as the Philip Busters. Oh, 126 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 1: I just would like to imagine that that's still the 127 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 1: chevy cheeked children, but they're dressed like as as politicians. 128 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:32,079 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, like wigs and robes and things. Yeah like, 129 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 1: I like that. Um. And talking about the influence of 130 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:41,440 Speaker 1: these women, Trina Robbins told Lisa Hicks, quote, everyone read 131 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:45,680 Speaker 1: newspapers and magazines. The women who drew cartoons were nationally 132 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 1: famous superstars. People would cut off their strips and save them. 133 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 1: You can find scrap books with these women's cartoons pasted 134 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 1: into them, sometimes colored in by a young girl. Nobody 135 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:58,560 Speaker 1: thought it was unusual for a woman to do comics, 136 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 1: because it wasn't unusual for women and girls to read comics. 137 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:07,560 Speaker 1: That's so key that you have girls identifying with the 138 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 1: artists and or the the artist creations, and that there 139 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 1: was nothing weird about it in the same way that 140 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:16,319 Speaker 1: it's nothing there's nothing weird about girls and boys coloring 141 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:20,560 Speaker 1: and coloring books forever for generations. There's there was nothing 142 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:24,560 Speaker 1: weird or unusual at the time about girls collecting and 143 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 1: enjoying comic strips. But oh, how that would change, I know. 144 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: But but luckily, and what I love the imagery from 145 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 1: this time because luckily a lot of these cartoonists were 146 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 1: staunch suffragists as well, and they used their creations to 147 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:44,960 Speaker 1: fight for women's rights. Yeah. Rose O'Neil in particular, as 148 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:49,440 Speaker 1: well as her sister Callista were known in New York 149 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 1: City circles for their suffrage activism. And O'Neill would draw 150 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 1: these suffrage postcards that were really widely circulated at the time, 151 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 1: and they and you oft and featured her cubie dolls. 152 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:04,200 Speaker 1: I guess they were dolls at the time, quepies in 153 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 1: her cartoons promoting women's rights, which I mean talk about 154 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:12,680 Speaker 1: catching What is this saying catching a fly with honey? 155 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:14,719 Speaker 1: I think, so okay, I gotta get it. Stretching a 156 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 1: bee with honey a fly probably a fly because of 157 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 1: makes the honey. Okay, So glad we got that worked out. Yeah, 158 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 1: So all of that to say, she would use these adorable, 159 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:32,320 Speaker 1: chevy cheek little characters to be like I would like 160 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: mommy to be able to vote to well, for those 161 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 1: of you who follow us on Pinterest, and I know 162 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 1: that's all of you because you love us. Um, we 163 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 1: actually do have a suffrage board, a suffrage board on 164 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 1: our Pinterest account, and I pinned a whole bunch of 165 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 1: cartoons from this era, one of which is one of 166 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:53,319 Speaker 1: the QUI characters holding a sign that says votes for women, 167 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 1: and sadly would still probably think that was creepy, but 168 00:10:57,160 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 1: I like it. That sounds adorable. That's not adorable, but 169 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 1: I all so pinned a picture. There was a cartoon 170 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:06,679 Speaker 1: at the time, uh, in the humor magazine Puck that 171 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 1: features a woman sitting on top of a stove wearing 172 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 1: a crown, and the caption is woman queen of the home, 173 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 1: said the anti suffragists, Yes, queen of a cook stove throne. 174 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 1: So it's it's humorous, but it's also kind of sad. 175 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:28,200 Speaker 1: And that was from Well and Puck two featured a 176 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:34,359 Speaker 1: lot of pro suffrage cartoons and also anti suffrage cartoons. 177 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 1: And when you look at the anti suffrage illustrations, usually, 178 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 1: and not surprisingly, the suffragists are always depicted as buck 179 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:49,440 Speaker 1: tooth ugly, they're smoking cigarettes, and the captions are always 180 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 1: about how women just want to oppress men, and it 181 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:57,439 Speaker 1: usually shows men then in domestic roles, perhaps wearing aprons, 182 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 1: are caring for the babies or and the their wife 183 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 1: nowhere to be found because she's gotten the vote, and 184 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 1: she is then never home. I guess because she's just 185 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:09,200 Speaker 1: voting all the time. I guess lots are so long. Well, 186 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 1: don't you know, Kristen, that a hundred years ago elections 187 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 1: were held once a week, so women were just constantly 188 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:16,199 Speaker 1: out of the home voting. But now there were a 189 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 1: lot of cartoons at the time to showing these men 190 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 1: who had been abandoned by their wives, who dared to 191 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 1: fight for equal rights, uh, you know, with the halo 192 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 1: around their head, and it was often paired with the 193 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 1: words suffragette Madonna that apparently when women are out voting 194 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:35,199 Speaker 1: and earning rights, that that apparently somehow took rights away 195 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 1: from men. Now, this is just one example of the 196 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:44,239 Speaker 1: political cartoons from the day, but a really fascinating intersection 197 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:48,680 Speaker 1: of women in cartooning and the social movements at the 198 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 1: time and women's rights all coming together in this very 199 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:58,719 Speaker 1: specific subset of suffrage cartoons and postcards and illustrations that 200 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:01,839 Speaker 1: were really every you were at the time. I mean, 201 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:05,800 Speaker 1: these were really powerful drawings. Yeah. I mean if you 202 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 1: think about it, like the imagery that they readers are 203 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 1: presented with, it's not like they're getting it that many 204 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:14,319 Speaker 1: other places that they don't have TV, they don't have Pinterest, 205 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 1: they don't have the giant time stuck that is Pinterest 206 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:19,080 Speaker 1: that we have today. But I mean, yeah, when you 207 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:20,959 Speaker 1: when you're sharing these cartoons, of course they're going to 208 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 1: pack a punch because you're not seeing imagery like this 209 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:26,440 Speaker 1: just anywhere. Well, and it's funny that you say they 210 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 1: didn't have Pinterest back then and talking about the Internet. Actually, 211 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 1: a couple of years ago, there was an anti suffrage 212 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:36,360 Speaker 1: cartoon to go off on a Tangent for a Second 213 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 1: that went viral online. It was also published in the 214 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 1: magazine Puck and it was by Harry Grant Dart and 215 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 1: it was from and the drawing is of a woman's 216 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 1: bar where all of the women are smoking and doing 217 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 1: all sorts of manly things. And they're like women huddled 218 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 1: around a stock ticker and like a sad baby looking 219 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 1: up at his mom's not paying attention because she's smoking 220 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 1: and gambling. And it was just fascinating. And the title 221 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:08,679 Speaker 1: of it is why not go the Limit, basically saying like, well, 222 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 1: if we give them the vote, then they'll get all 223 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:17,559 Speaker 1: these other things, these manly bourbon infused cigars, smoke smelling 224 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:20,440 Speaker 1: kinds of things. Well, no, I immediately upon seeing this 225 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 1: image immediately made at my Facebook cover photo. It's a 226 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 1: good one because I love it. I love that women 227 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 1: who smoke and hang out in bars are considered like 228 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 1: dangerous to society. Well, I mean, and it just again, 229 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 1: it's so it's so interesting in today's context to think 230 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 1: about the power of this imagery, especially as we move 231 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 1: into the World War One era. UM one name that 232 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 1: I hadn't heard of before researching for this podcast. Whom 233 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 1: I was surprised I hadn't run across before was Nell 234 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:56,080 Speaker 1: Brinkley and her Brinkley Girls, because we've talked a lot 235 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 1: in the podcast about Charles Dana Gibson and the Gibson 236 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 1: Girls and how the Gibson Girl at the turn of 237 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 1: the century really established the beauty ideal for the time, 238 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 1: down to her silhouette, the hourglass silhouette, and we talked 239 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 1: about her in our Cankles and Ankles podcast. While following 240 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 1: on the heels of the Gibson Girls, you have Nell 241 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 1: Brinkley and her ladies. Yeah. Nell Brinkley created these beautiful 242 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 1: drawings and beautiful works of art, and her women certainly 243 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 1: were more active. One was in a canoe paddling along 244 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 1: with the man sitting behind her, and uh, she enjoyed 245 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 1: and her characters enjoyed so much popularity at the time, 246 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 1: um that the zig Feld girls in the famous they 247 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 1: were famous performers were actually dressed as Brinkley girls. There 248 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:52,160 Speaker 1: was even one act where a zig Feld girl was 249 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 1: dressed as the girl in the canoe with a man 250 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:57,760 Speaker 1: behind her. And you could even buy Nell Brinkley curlers 251 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 1: to get your hair to curl, just like that of 252 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 1: her characters. Yeah, unlike the Gibson girls, whose hair was 253 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 1: usually in an up to and you know, pinned up, 254 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 1: Brinkley girls had big, curly hair. They were often more 255 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 1: working class. And it was also notable to see how 256 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 1: quickly Brinkley's career took off because she came to New 257 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 1: York in to draw for the Hearst Syndicate, and by 258 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 1: she was on her way to becoming a household name. 259 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 1: And during World War One she created this series called 260 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 1: Golden Eyes and Her Hero Bill, which was published in 261 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 1: the magazine American Weekly, and it was sort of a 262 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 1: proto comic style of a serialized story, but it didn't 263 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 1: have speech bubbles or panels. It would be one full 264 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 1: page gorgeous art nouveau illustration of this leading lady, Golden Eyes, 265 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 1: and then it would have the captions detailed captions underneath. 266 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 1: And Golden Eyes and Her Hero Bill are all about 267 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 1: how while Bill goes off to war during World War One, 268 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:09,680 Speaker 1: Golden Eyes goes on adventures with Bill's collie, whose name 269 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:14,119 Speaker 1: is Uncle Sam right precursor to Lassie Um and Golden 270 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:17,720 Speaker 1: Eyes is allowed to be an amazing character and it's 271 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 1: so exciting. She ultimately saves Bill from death by the Germans, 272 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:27,960 Speaker 1: and Brinkley follows Golden Eyes up in nineteen with Kathleen 273 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 1: and the Great Secret, another strip in which the heroine 274 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 1: saves the hero and Trina Robbins, the historian that we mentioned, 275 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 1: calls Kathleen another amazingly feminist cliffhanger. Yeah, and after World 276 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:45,720 Speaker 1: War One you have the rise of flapper comics, and 277 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 1: Nel Brinkley is sort of credited with inventing this type 278 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:54,200 Speaker 1: of comic strip, even though obviously she didn't invent the flapper, 279 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:56,879 Speaker 1: but sort of playing on this new type of woman, 280 00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:01,680 Speaker 1: and her contemporaries as well had a feature flapper characters 281 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 1: that weren't so overtly feminist necessarily, but they were significantly 282 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:14,200 Speaker 1: different from say, the women depicted in those anti suffrage 283 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:19,200 Speaker 1: cartoons that were, you know, painting the terrifying portrait of 284 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 1: what would happen if women got some freedom. Well, it 285 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:27,360 Speaker 1: turns out they are just well flappers. Yeah. So, for instance, 286 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:32,240 Speaker 1: you have artist Ethel Hayes, who created strips like Ethel Flapper, 287 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 1: Fannie Says and Maryanne and Flapper Fanny was very much 288 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:40,880 Speaker 1: like sort of portraying this emerging teen life, this young 289 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:44,439 Speaker 1: woman life, and what that entailed. Um, and this is 290 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 1: coming from Hogan's alley, but I thought that Ethel Hayes 291 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 1: was such an interesting character, was such a great story. 292 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 1: She actually, instead of going to finishing school, went to 293 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:55,399 Speaker 1: the Los Angeles School of Art and Design. She convinced 294 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:57,960 Speaker 1: her parents to sender there. After that, she won a 295 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,399 Speaker 1: scholarship to New York's Art Students League, then to the 296 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: Julian Academy in Paris, then joined up with the Red 297 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:09,959 Speaker 1: Cross during World War One, where she helped rehab soldiers 298 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 1: through art classes, and when the soldiers weren't super excited 299 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:17,240 Speaker 1: about learning the type of art that she was teaching 300 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:19,719 Speaker 1: and they wanted to learn how to draw cartoons, she 301 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:23,639 Speaker 1: ended up enrolling herself in a cartooning correspondence course to 302 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,399 Speaker 1: help teach them, and the head of that school was 303 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:28,920 Speaker 1: so impressed with her abilities that he passes her stuff 304 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 1: along to the Cleveland Press, which offered her a job 305 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:36,399 Speaker 1: in ninete and now hey is getting this job. She 306 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 1: assumed that her duties would just end up being stuff 307 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:41,240 Speaker 1: like touch up and layout work, kind of like the 308 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 1: Women of Disney that Kristen and I talked about last year, 309 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:47,680 Speaker 1: but instead when she showed up, she had the job 310 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:53,480 Speaker 1: of illustrating stories a colleague, stories of a Flappers hijinks, 311 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:56,080 Speaker 1: and so she actually had a lot of control over 312 00:19:56,119 --> 00:19:59,920 Speaker 1: what she created. Yeah, and after Ethel Hayes, Gladys park 313 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 1: Or took over Flapper Fanny, and she also created the 314 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:07,919 Speaker 1: strip Mopsie. And then during World War Two she created 315 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 1: Betty g I, which I mean it's a very World 316 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:15,400 Speaker 1: War two sounding comic strip. And speaking of World War two, 317 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:20,160 Speaker 1: though around that time, obviously flapper cartoons had become passe, 318 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:25,639 Speaker 1: and as that happened, they were replaced largely by Team 319 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 1: girl characters because this is when being a teenager and 320 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:33,160 Speaker 1: that whole culture really emerges in the US as well. 321 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:37,480 Speaker 1: So that's reflected in the cartoon strips of Virginia Huge 322 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:40,159 Speaker 1: a who that is her her pen name? It's a 323 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 1: pen name? Do you have a is it? A drawing name? 324 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:44,760 Speaker 1: Is the same thing for a cartoonist as it is 325 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 1: for a writer a lettering name and inc name. Um. Regardless, 326 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:54,160 Speaker 1: Huge created campus Capers and Babs in Society, and those 327 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 1: were a couple of Trina Robbins is a favorite women 328 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:02,399 Speaker 1: drawn cartoons for that time. Now, one woman from the 329 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:04,440 Speaker 1: pre World War Two era who we definitely need to 330 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:07,680 Speaker 1: highlight before we move on is Jackie ORMs. He was 331 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:11,879 Speaker 1: the first female African American career cartoonist who in nineteen 332 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 1: thirty seven first published Dixie to Harlem, which featured the 333 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 1: character Torchy Brown, and it was published in the African 334 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 1: American newspaper the Pittsburgh Courier. And then in ninety five 335 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:28,440 Speaker 1: she created the short lived cartoon Candy, which was published 336 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:31,919 Speaker 1: in the Chicago Defender, also an African American newspaper, and 337 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 1: it was about a housemaid who essentially tells it like 338 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:39,120 Speaker 1: it is on social issues. And she'll use a similar 339 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 1: kind of format in terms of using cartoons to talk 340 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:47,680 Speaker 1: about and tell it how it is when it comes 341 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 1: to social issues in the strip that she's best known for, 342 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:54,560 Speaker 1: which is Patty Joe and Ginger. And this is a 343 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 1: single panel series that was also published in the Pittsburgh Courier, 344 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:02,359 Speaker 1: which ran weekly for a eleven straight years starting in 345 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:06,639 Speaker 1: nineteen and it's all about, as you would guess, Patty 346 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 1: Joe and Ginger and Patty Joe is a little sister, 347 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:16,359 Speaker 1: and Ginger is the older, fashionable sister, and Patty Joe essentially, 348 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:19,880 Speaker 1: I mean she she's a very like straight talking it's 349 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 1: almost like the out of the mouth of babes, you know. 350 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 1: She's the straight talking character who always has these very 351 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 1: sage of funny observations about life, about society, about racism, 352 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:40,760 Speaker 1: about politics. And it was so popular and influential in 353 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:44,680 Speaker 1: its depiction of black girls. In particular, the Patty Joe doll, 354 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:47,200 Speaker 1: which was sold in the late nineteen forties, is considered 355 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 1: one of the first positive black dolls ever sold in 356 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:54,359 Speaker 1: the United States, and then from nineteen fifty to nineteen 357 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:58,719 Speaker 1: fifty four, Rams is last comic strip Torchy and Heartbeats 358 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:02,440 Speaker 1: featured a mature black woman and activist looking for love. 359 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:05,600 Speaker 1: So it's interesting you have this more mature activists coming 360 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:09,639 Speaker 1: up right as the civil rights movement starts to get underway. Yeah, 361 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:13,480 Speaker 1: And Nancy Goldstein actually wrote an entire book about Jackie 362 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 1: ORMs called Jackie ORMs the first African American woman cartoonist, 363 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:22,159 Speaker 1: And she talks a lot about how her lead characters, 364 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:26,719 Speaker 1: often women obviously have Patti Joe, Ginger, Torchi Candy, they 365 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:30,720 Speaker 1: usually broke out of the racially stereotyped roles for black people, 366 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:34,679 Speaker 1: showing them doing things like shopping, going to concerts, taking 367 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:37,880 Speaker 1: music lessons, going on road trips, et cetera, rather than 368 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:44,639 Speaker 1: being pigeonholed in these subservient or racist kinds of roles 369 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 1: that they had been previously cast in in white pop culture. 370 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:54,120 Speaker 1: And they also hit on serious issues including racism, taxes, 371 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:58,359 Speaker 1: labor strikes, McCarthy ism, foreign policy, the Cold War, education 372 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:02,879 Speaker 1: and jobs. And Nancy Goldstein told Marketplace that ORMs was 373 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:07,920 Speaker 1: the first cartoonist of any kind to bring out environmental pollution. 374 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:12,360 Speaker 1: I mean she covered really everything and a lot of times, 375 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:16,120 Speaker 1: especially in Patty Joe and Ginger. It's Patty Joe who 376 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,679 Speaker 1: is making the observations about all these different things, and 377 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:23,560 Speaker 1: it plays off of Ginger, who was very attractive and 378 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:26,160 Speaker 1: sort of going about her business, and Patty Joe would, 379 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:28,760 Speaker 1: which is kind of call out certain things as she 380 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 1: saw it. And I mean, she was quite a woman. 381 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 1: And in a review in American Studies of Goldstein's book 382 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 1: About Worms, they point out that her characters articulated self, pride, 383 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 1: and modernity and that they were everyday people going through 384 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:49,760 Speaker 1: circumstances that her readers recognized again, you know, going back 385 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:51,960 Speaker 1: to the fact that she had them doing just normal 386 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:56,840 Speaker 1: people activities that they weren't relying on any you know, 387 00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:01,920 Speaker 1: racist stereotypes or racist imagery. So it's yet another example 388 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 1: of the powerful influence of cartoons and comics. And that's 389 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:12,000 Speaker 1: something that gets talked about a lot today when it 390 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:16,199 Speaker 1: comes to analyzing comics and appreciating the history of comics, 391 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:18,840 Speaker 1: because it's sort of a new kind of thing because 392 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 1: for a long time, people are more serious artists might 393 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:27,440 Speaker 1: have brushed off comics as just childish or worthless. They're 394 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 1: just they're just cartoons. What does it matter? But clearly 395 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 1: in examples like Jackie ormss work, it matters a great 396 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 1: deal because you're able to say things probably that you 397 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:46,639 Speaker 1: couldn't otherwise say through this gentler sometimes medium, right, and 398 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,879 Speaker 1: using worms as an example, I mean, when you bring 399 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:55,040 Speaker 1: people in with different perspectives, it only serves to enrich 400 00:25:55,240 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 1: the whole medium. Because consider for a second, how revolution 401 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:04,359 Speaker 1: knowing that must have been in nineteen to not only 402 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 1: have a comic, a single panel comic series penned by 403 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:15,199 Speaker 1: a black woman, but it's also featuring almost exclusively black women. 404 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 1: There was nothing else like it at the time, and 405 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 1: featuring black women as human people and not just caricatures. 406 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:27,640 Speaker 1: So now we're going to move away from the newspaper 407 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:31,240 Speaker 1: cartoons though, and look more into comic books, because as 408 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:34,159 Speaker 1: we have gotten into the World War two era in 409 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:38,639 Speaker 1: our timeline, this is also approaching the golden era of 410 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:43,720 Speaker 1: comic books. We've been discussing comic strips and single panel 411 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:47,480 Speaker 1: comics as they appeared in newspapers, but you're probably wondering 412 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 1: what we have to say about comic books. And the 413 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 1: first regular comic book actually appears way before World War Two, 414 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 1: back in nineteen two, and comic books actually got a 415 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 1: jolt of popularity when gas stations began offering them in 416 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 1: the early to mid thirties. And then the golden age 417 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:13,119 Speaker 1: of comic books begins with Action Comics publication of Action 418 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 1: Comics number one, debuting a fellow you've probably heard of 419 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 1: named Superman John's Superman uh, and then Detective Comics or 420 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 1: DC would go on to publish Batman or Batman, and 421 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,120 Speaker 1: after this, comic book sales shoot up during World War 422 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:34,600 Speaker 1: Two because they featured themes of good triumphing over evil 423 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:39,800 Speaker 1: pro American characters and superheroes, and of course the first 424 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 1: Captain America cover features him battling Hitler. So it's it's 425 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 1: really satisfying good versus evil, black and white clear stuff. 426 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 1: And it's super satisfying for this industry because by October 427 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:57,720 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty four, the comics industry would be selling fifty 428 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:04,160 Speaker 1: million copies per month of six fifty different titles, reaping 429 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:07,399 Speaker 1: ninety million dollars per year. And I believe that was 430 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:11,120 Speaker 1: ninety million dollars in nineteen fifty four money, So they're 431 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:14,639 Speaker 1: doing pretty good. Yeah, well, so what about the women. 432 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:16,919 Speaker 1: Where are the women in this era? Oh? There are 433 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,320 Speaker 1: there are a few women of the Golden Age. So 434 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 1: the first one we need to talk about really emerged 435 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 1: in ninety nine. Her name was June Mills, but she 436 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 1: went under the pseudonym Tarpei Mills to sort of conceal 437 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:33,120 Speaker 1: her gender because that was the environment at the time. 438 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 1: And she got her start in comic books with Daredevil 439 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 1: Berry Finn All about a Dada devil named Barry Thin 440 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 1: who had a plan to thwart Hitler and Mussolini, and 441 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:49,720 Speaker 1: then she would go on to create Purple Zombie, Devil's 442 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:53,200 Speaker 1: Dust and the Catman, which is not the same as 443 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 1: Crazy Cat Lady, although I wonder if perhaps I was 444 00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 1: a love interest at one one point. Probably also not 445 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 1: to be confused with us cat Man. Oh so, and 446 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:05,480 Speaker 1: I like the straightforwardness of Purple Zombie. That title, Yeah, 447 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 1: just you know what you're getting straightforward? Well so, then 448 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 1: a couple of years later, Mills creates the first major 449 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 1: female action hero, so from we get Miss Fury. Of 450 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:23,640 Speaker 1: course she her real identity is socialite Marla Drake, who 451 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:26,680 Speaker 1: inherits a magical suit of panther skin that she carries 452 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 1: around in her purse. Pretty sure she got the panther 453 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 1: suit willed to her by her uncle, but the suit 454 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:36,600 Speaker 1: was supposed to be worn by a witch doctor. But 455 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:40,880 Speaker 1: you know, you can't stop a good costume, I understand. Well, 456 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 1: she had gone to a party and someone else was 457 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,960 Speaker 1: wearing the same outfit she was, And even worse than 458 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 1: wearing something only a witch doctor is supposed to wear 459 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,040 Speaker 1: would be another woman wearing the same outfit as you 460 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 1: at the same party. So Marla was like, you know what, 461 00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 1: I'll just wear this panther skin. It's no big deal. 462 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,640 Speaker 1: And even though her friend Albino Joe actual character name 463 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 1: was like, I don't think you should do that. She did, 464 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:07,400 Speaker 1: and lo and behold it had magical powers that turned 465 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,760 Speaker 1: her into a superhero. But the cool thing about Miss 466 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 1: Fury was that the panther skin suit did not get 467 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,719 Speaker 1: worn all that often. She kind of referred to do 468 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 1: her crime fighting in her normal socialite clothes. She was 469 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 1: very smartly dressed. Who and she happened to fight Nazis, 470 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 1: so yeah, just just happened to But yeah, Miss Fury 471 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:32,719 Speaker 1: wasn't actually a comic book. She was a Sunday serial. 472 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:34,960 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, this is This is a good point, but 473 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:41,640 Speaker 1: still important as a major female action hero. And remember 474 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:47,640 Speaker 1: this is new territory for women getting into action comics 475 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:51,960 Speaker 1: and cartoons, right, And she did definitely pave the way 476 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 1: for a bunch of future female superhero characters often drawn 477 00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,800 Speaker 1: by men, including Phantom Lady, Miss Mask, Red, torn A 478 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:04,280 Speaker 1: Know Lady Luck, Spider Widow, and wonder Woman, who came 479 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:07,360 Speaker 1: around in nineteen forty one thanks to William Marshton, who 480 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:11,040 Speaker 1: we've done a podcast about. Yeah, and around the same 481 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:14,840 Speaker 1: time that all this is happening in nineteen forty Dale Messic, 482 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:19,280 Speaker 1: who changed her name like Tarpe Mills from Dahlia to 483 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 1: Dale to make it sound more masculine. She created the 484 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 1: action adventure strip Brenda Star Reporter, and she was influenced 485 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 1: by none other than Nell Brinkley. I actually, for a while, 486 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:35,840 Speaker 1: Kristen in middle school really kept up with Brenda Starr, 487 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 1: like every day ran for the paper to go to 488 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,720 Speaker 1: the comics section to read Brenda Star. Yeah. I read 489 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,320 Speaker 1: her in the Sunday Funnies. And you know what, that 490 00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 1: takes a lot of patients. There's a lot of dialogue. 491 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 1: I think I would have rather just had a comic 492 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:51,520 Speaker 1: book as a child, which I never had to read 493 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:55,840 Speaker 1: it all at once. But yeah, that's that's fine. That's fine. Um. 494 00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 1: But so with this whole trend that we're starting to 495 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:04,480 Speaker 1: see with women artists creating female action here is in comics, 496 00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:07,840 Speaker 1: they are, like Kristen said, sort of entering a dude territory. 497 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 1: It was all fun in games when women were creating 498 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:15,360 Speaker 1: the more domestic scenes, the teen girl comics, the comics 499 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,440 Speaker 1: for children and featuring animals and things like that, that 500 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:21,520 Speaker 1: was all fine. But when you start sort of treading 501 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 1: into the action genre, that's when guys basically started turning 502 00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:30,120 Speaker 1: their backs on some of these female artists. Well, and 503 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 1: I wonder too if it had to do with just 504 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:37,920 Speaker 1: how successful this new Ish comic book industry was, you know, 505 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 1: and it seemed like women were kind of creeping in 506 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 1: on that. And Trina Robbins told Lisa hicks Um for 507 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 1: Collectors Weekly quote, up until then, nobody had resented the 508 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,960 Speaker 1: other women cartoonist, but she was getting into men's territory. 509 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:55,000 Speaker 1: The action strip before Dale messic women cartoonists all stuck 510 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:58,360 Speaker 1: with domestic situations, pretty girls, cute kids, that kind of thing. 511 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:02,000 Speaker 1: She was intruding and they resented it. As a result, 512 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:05,120 Speaker 1: men in the industry were not particularly complimentary about her art, 513 00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,160 Speaker 1: and she felt very neglected by them. And this would 514 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,600 Speaker 1: last well into her career. Even though she was wildly 515 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:16,720 Speaker 1: successful within the car to within the comic industry, I 516 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:21,400 Speaker 1: should say, she often felt like an outsider. Well. Yeah, 517 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,960 Speaker 1: and then once we get back to World War Two, 518 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:31,320 Speaker 1: as with so many industries in the United States, women 519 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,440 Speaker 1: sort of filled a void. The comic book industry became 520 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 1: slightly friendlier to women while the guys were off overseas fighting. Yeah, 521 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 1: this is the same kind of thing that we talked 522 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:44,280 Speaker 1: about in our Women of Disney podcast um in that 523 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 1: during World War One, you have more women being employed, 524 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:50,800 Speaker 1: not necessarily to create these comic heroes, but a lot 525 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:55,960 Speaker 1: of them were employed as pencilers and inkers, sometimes as letterers, 526 00:33:56,240 --> 00:34:00,320 Speaker 1: because they're I mean, they're all these different layers involved 527 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:04,800 Speaker 1: in creating a comic. It's not just one person doing 528 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:08,840 Speaker 1: all of the work. And Wesley Channel talks about this 529 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:12,239 Speaker 1: a lot in his thesis, Working the Margins Women in 530 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,560 Speaker 1: the Comic book Industry, and I mean, he gets very 531 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:20,080 Speaker 1: granular about women during the Golden Era and during World 532 00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:23,720 Speaker 1: War Two, and he says that Fiction House Publishing Company 533 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:27,720 Speaker 1: hired the most women, including Frand Hopper and Lily Renee, 534 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:31,080 Speaker 1: who created Mist of the Moon, which was all about 535 00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:34,319 Speaker 1: this moon woman who had a robot dog who has 536 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:37,440 Speaker 1: the superpower of possessing all the knowledge of the universe. 537 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:41,120 Speaker 1: That would be so handy. I could finally fly a helicopter, yeah, 538 00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:44,760 Speaker 1: and you'd have a robot dog dog. It wouldn't shed. 539 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:50,720 Speaker 1: But DC fans out there, raise yourselves, because during World 540 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:54,879 Speaker 1: War two, oh, I'm sorry, during the entire nineteen forties, 541 00:34:55,400 --> 00:35:00,080 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Burnley. Bentley was the only known female artist to 542 00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:03,919 Speaker 1: have worked at what was then National periodicals which would 543 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:07,480 Speaker 1: then be rolled into d C. And she did lettering 544 00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:12,600 Speaker 1: and penciling of backgrounds uncredited for both Batman and Superman. Yeah, 545 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:15,360 Speaker 1: Marvel and DC definitely have both had the worst record 546 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:20,120 Speaker 1: of female artist employment compared with their contemporaries, but writers 547 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:22,279 Speaker 1: fared a little bit better. And now that's kind of 548 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:24,800 Speaker 1: across the board. I would say that writers and editors 549 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:29,759 Speaker 1: tend to fare better, um than the artists. So what 550 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:35,360 Speaker 1: happens then after World War Two? Well, after World War two, 551 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:39,839 Speaker 1: superhero comics decline in popularity. I mean, you have soldiers 552 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:43,360 Speaker 1: coming home, so that puts a dent in sales to 553 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:47,880 Speaker 1: begin with, just because I mean soldiers abroad in foxholes, 554 00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:52,360 Speaker 1: you know, at camps overseas, gobbled up comic books to 555 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:56,000 Speaker 1: keep them entertained. And then on top of that too, 556 00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 1: once you don't have say, Hitler and Mussolini for Captain 557 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:04,080 Speaker 1: America to fight, I mean, the entire landscape is changing. 558 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:06,600 Speaker 1: And what's interesting to see is how, in an attempt 559 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:11,400 Speaker 1: to attract new readership you do have more female characters emerge, 560 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:16,600 Speaker 1: but it's all focused around romance and domesticity, with maybe 561 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:19,319 Speaker 1: a little bit of crime fighting here and there. Yeah, 562 00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:22,040 Speaker 1: and we also see the renewed interest in teen comic 563 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:26,239 Speaker 1: strips because you know, Archie had launched, which was the 564 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:30,160 Speaker 1: same year as Hill to Terry's influential strip Tina, And 565 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:32,920 Speaker 1: I mean, we've talked on the podcast before about post 566 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:35,800 Speaker 1: war social anxieties and the need to sort of reassert 567 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:40,080 Speaker 1: a traditional masculinity and a traditional femininity, women leaving the workplace, 568 00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:42,680 Speaker 1: going back home to take care of the men who 569 00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:45,439 Speaker 1: have returned well. And as we talked about in our 570 00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:49,000 Speaker 1: podcast on whether World War two was all that great 571 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:52,439 Speaker 1: for Rosie the Riveters, and basically how after they come home, 572 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:56,319 Speaker 1: the women were expected to leave the jobs that so 573 00:36:56,360 --> 00:37:00,120 Speaker 1: that men could have jobs to take back up. And 574 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:03,200 Speaker 1: the same thing happened in the comic industry. After World 575 00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:07,200 Speaker 1: War Two, women's employment in the comic industry dropped by 576 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:11,400 Speaker 1: about two thirds, and the women who stayed were usually 577 00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:15,560 Speaker 1: kicked out of action adventure titles and then redirected to 578 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:19,120 Speaker 1: teen and romance serials, or some of them just moved 579 00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:21,799 Speaker 1: into children's illustration. We're like, I'm just getting out of 580 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:25,399 Speaker 1: this industry altogether. And so it's right after the war 581 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:29,799 Speaker 1: in ninety six that we get the National Cartoonists society 582 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:33,600 Speaker 1: that forms. That sounds cool, right, Oh well, it's open 583 00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:37,600 Speaker 1: to you if you're a man. And in nineteen forty nine, 584 00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:40,719 Speaker 1: Hilda Terry puts up a fight. She called for the 585 00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:44,319 Speaker 1: inclusion of women, or told them, if you're not going 586 00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:46,960 Speaker 1: to include us, maybe you should just change your name 587 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:50,759 Speaker 1: to the National Men Cartoonist Society. Yeah, hild Terry was 588 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:55,040 Speaker 1: not pleased. Um, but the good news is in nineteen 589 00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:59,600 Speaker 1: fifty al Cap who created a Little Abner as well 590 00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:02,560 Speaker 1: as as other obviously male because they were all male, 591 00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:06,960 Speaker 1: members of the National Cartoonist Society, came to bat for 592 00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:11,239 Speaker 1: women's inclusion, and so the society finally had to open 593 00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:15,719 Speaker 1: up its stores to let some women. And although there 594 00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:19,560 Speaker 1: weren't that many. Yeah, well, so we've already seen, you know, 595 00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:22,760 Speaker 1: Kristen mentioned the declining numbers that we see by nineteen 596 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:27,120 Speaker 1: fifty that more women are just going into other arenas. 597 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:32,120 Speaker 1: But four something happens that makes things even more difficult 598 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:35,879 Speaker 1: for really everybody, not just women. But in nineteen fifty 599 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:40,880 Speaker 1: four we get the publication of Frederick Wortham's Seduction of 600 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:44,640 Speaker 1: the Innocent, which blamed comic books for corrupting young minds, 601 00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:49,280 Speaker 1: and that leads to the Comics Code, which basically sanitized 602 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:52,440 Speaker 1: mainstream comics. It wanted to get root out any sex, 603 00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:56,840 Speaker 1: any violence, any anything that could potentially poison young minds. 604 00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:59,600 Speaker 1: So this is not unlike every fight we have ever had, 605 00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:04,640 Speaker 1: every generation of forever, whether it's about music or video games, 606 00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:07,200 Speaker 1: but in this particular instance, it was all about what 607 00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:10,359 Speaker 1: comics were doing to young children. And we talked in 608 00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:14,920 Speaker 1: our podcast while back on Wonder Woman about how Wortham 609 00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:20,240 Speaker 1: and the Comics Code was responsible for also sanitizing Wonder Woman. 610 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:26,160 Speaker 1: You see her shift even more to romantic storylines. And 611 00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:30,080 Speaker 1: they were concerned in Wonder Woman in particular about overtones 612 00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:35,239 Speaker 1: of lesbianism and bondage, and so, of course, with the 613 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:37,600 Speaker 1: Comics Code in the sixth sees, all of a sudden, 614 00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:42,520 Speaker 1: Wonder Woman is all about her boyfriend and clothes. And 615 00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:46,200 Speaker 1: it's really with the publication of Seduction of the Innocent, 616 00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:48,680 Speaker 1: which I mean this book. I mean it wasn't just 617 00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:50,400 Speaker 1: a book that a lot of parents read and they 618 00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:53,720 Speaker 1: freaked out about. I mean there were senate meetings about 619 00:39:53,760 --> 00:40:00,200 Speaker 1: comic books. Um. So, heading into the nineteen sixt is 620 00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:04,680 Speaker 1: the golden age is over. Mainstream comics are getting a 621 00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:09,040 Speaker 1: lot more sanitized. They're rather boring comparatively, and this is 622 00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:14,640 Speaker 1: ushering in an underground comics with an ex revolution, and 623 00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:17,560 Speaker 1: that comics with an ex revolution is something that krist 624 00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:20,040 Speaker 1: and I will delve into in our next episode, So 625 00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:23,160 Speaker 1: stay tuned. Yeah, but now we want to hear from 626 00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:30,040 Speaker 1: classic cartoon and comics fans and cartoonists listening. Moms Stuff 627 00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:32,360 Speaker 1: at House of Works dot com is our email address. 628 00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:35,200 Speaker 1: You can tweet us at mom Stuff Podcast. Let us 629 00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:39,840 Speaker 1: know your favorite cartoonists, your comic books. Where there classic 630 00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:43,560 Speaker 1: era women that we didn't talk about but we should 631 00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:47,319 Speaker 1: let us know. You can email us, you can tweet us. 632 00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:49,640 Speaker 1: You can also message us on Facebook. And we've got 633 00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:52,239 Speaker 1: a couple of messages to share with you right now. 634 00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:00,160 Speaker 1: So I've gotta let her hear from Eleanor about our 635 00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:04,120 Speaker 1: two partner on Lady Detectives. She writes, I just finished 636 00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:08,040 Speaker 1: listening to part two of Murder she watched. She said, 637 00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:11,480 Speaker 1: I love a good detective mystery, especially when the main 638 00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:14,560 Speaker 1: character is a woman. I loved Jessica Fletcher and how 639 00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:17,080 Speaker 1: she made the local sheriff eat his words every week. 640 00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:20,440 Speaker 1: I know it's difficult to fit all shows into an episode, 641 00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:22,360 Speaker 1: but I wanted to mention a few of my favorites 642 00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:25,920 Speaker 1: that I feel are definitely worth watching. The first is 643 00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:30,000 Speaker 1: Hetty Wainthrop Mysteries. It's a British show that starts Patricia 644 00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:33,760 Speaker 1: Routledge as Hetty Wainthrop, a private detective. You may remember 645 00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:36,520 Speaker 1: her in her iconic role as Hyacinth Bouquet in Keeping 646 00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:40,080 Speaker 1: Up Appearances. I do remember her in that role because 647 00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:42,360 Speaker 1: of her work on that show. She's seen mainly as 648 00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:45,040 Speaker 1: a comedic actress, but her range of talent is huge 649 00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:48,160 Speaker 1: and her versatility is definitely displayed in this show. She 650 00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:51,040 Speaker 1: has a male sidekick, the teenage Jeffrey, played by the 651 00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:55,200 Speaker 1: also teenage Dominic Monaghan. If memory serves, it was his 652 00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:58,160 Speaker 1: first role. The series is from the mid nineties. The 653 00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:01,399 Speaker 1: other one worth a watch is simply called Vera. It's 654 00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:03,200 Speaker 1: also a British show and you may be able to 655 00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:06,239 Speaker 1: watch it on your local PBS station. Vera is about 656 00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:10,120 Speaker 1: a head detective, Vera Stanhope. She's in her sixties and 657 00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:13,560 Speaker 1: unlike most women detectives, she does not wear fashionable clothes, 658 00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:15,680 Speaker 1: says not have her hair done at a salon, and 659 00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:18,960 Speaker 1: wear sensible shoes. She's witty and funny and grumpy and 660 00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:22,799 Speaker 1: generous and very intelligent. Of all women detectives, she's the 661 00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:25,600 Speaker 1: one that feels like a real person. The episodes are 662 00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:29,279 Speaker 1: entertaining and well written. That's it, I guess. I love 663 00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:32,320 Speaker 1: the podcast. Thank you for covering a subject so close 664 00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:35,920 Speaker 1: to my heart, and thanks for the recommendations. Eleanor and 665 00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:40,120 Speaker 1: I have a letter here from Ashley. She says, growing up, 666 00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:43,280 Speaker 1: I wanted to be a detective. I loved Charlie's Angels 667 00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:46,560 Speaker 1: when I was in elementary school, Kate Jackson Sabrina was 668 00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:48,880 Speaker 1: my favorite. I was in her fan club and the 669 00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:52,640 Speaker 1: autograph photo I received was my prized possession. Then along 670 00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:55,200 Speaker 1: came Cagney and Lacy, and I had new role models 671 00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:57,759 Speaker 1: during my middle and high school years. But I grew 672 00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:00,160 Speaker 1: up in a conservative environment where I was expect did 673 00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:03,080 Speaker 1: to pursue a white collar career suitable for a woman, 674 00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:06,000 Speaker 1: so I followed a different career path. Part of me 675 00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:08,640 Speaker 1: still regrets that I didn't become a police officer, which 676 00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:11,240 Speaker 1: is probably why I can't get enough of watching cops 677 00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:14,400 Speaker 1: shows on TV. I watched many of the shows you 678 00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:16,239 Speaker 1: mentioned and thought you made a lot of good points 679 00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:19,319 Speaker 1: about the characters and storylines. I also hope to see 680 00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:22,280 Speaker 1: more not so feminine characters in this genre in the future. 681 00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:25,400 Speaker 1: I watched The Closer but always thought Brenda Lee was 682 00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:28,840 Speaker 1: too syrapy, not to mention the overly Southern accent. I 683 00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:32,040 Speaker 1: much prefer Captain Sharon Rader on Major Crimes and think 684 00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:35,239 Speaker 1: Mary McDonald at age sixty two, is fantastic in that role. 685 00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:39,440 Speaker 1: Major Crimes also includes Kieren Giovanni as Detective Amy Sykes. 686 00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:42,080 Speaker 1: It's nice that her character is a military veteran, but 687 00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:45,280 Speaker 1: of course she looks like a model. I consider Risolian 688 00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:48,400 Speaker 1: Aisles to be mindless fun rather than a serious cop drama. 689 00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:51,439 Speaker 1: I think the producers purposely allow viewers to entertain hope 690 00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:54,920 Speaker 1: of a romantic relationship between the two, and beautiful Angie 691 00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:57,520 Speaker 1: Harmon as the butch character makes me laugh. She put 692 00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:00,400 Speaker 1: butching quotes. By the way, I'm looking forward to watching 693 00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:02,399 Speaker 1: some of the other shows you mentioned that we're not 694 00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:07,560 Speaker 1: on my radar. In conclusion, I loved these two episodes 695 00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:10,000 Speaker 1: and really enjoy your podcast. Keep up the good work, 696 00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:13,080 Speaker 1: and thank you Ashley. We appreciate the letter, and thanks 697 00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:15,680 Speaker 1: to everybody who's written into us. Mom Stuff at how 698 00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:18,200 Speaker 1: Stuff Works Dot com is our email address and for 699 00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:20,279 Speaker 1: links to all of our social media as well as 700 00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:23,600 Speaker 1: all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts with our sources 701 00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:26,439 Speaker 1: so you can follow along with us. Head on over 702 00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:33,319 Speaker 1: to stuff Mom Never Told You dot com for more 703 00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:35,600 Speaker 1: on this and thousands of other topics. Is it how 704 00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:44,560 Speaker 1: stuff Works dot com