1 00:00:15,276 --> 00:00:25,636 Speaker 1: Pushkin. So we're walking across a parking lot in Secaucus, 2 00:00:25,756 --> 00:00:29,356 Speaker 1: New Jersey. We're surrounded by concrete, nothing green. It took 3 00:00:29,396 --> 00:00:32,276 Speaker 1: a lot to get me to this place. Their chain 4 00:00:32,636 --> 00:00:37,356 Speaker 1: hotel and motels in someone's idea of the wall. But 5 00:00:37,436 --> 00:00:42,356 Speaker 1: I have a hunch, a suspicion about the crisis that 6 00:00:42,396 --> 00:00:46,436 Speaker 1: we find ourselves in. It's filled with cheap chain restaurants 7 00:00:46,876 --> 00:00:51,316 Speaker 1: and we're surrounded on all sides by freeways. It's like 8 00:00:51,316 --> 00:00:54,876 Speaker 1: what people think about when they tell jokes about New Jersey. 9 00:00:55,476 --> 00:00:58,156 Speaker 1: I think you can see what's going on right here 10 00:00:58,156 --> 00:01:04,316 Speaker 1: in Secaucus, and we're approaching a four story rectangular, otherwise 11 00:01:04,396 --> 00:01:09,916 Speaker 1: nondescript concrete building. There's a discreete little sign here that 12 00:01:09,996 --> 00:01:14,236 Speaker 1: says NBA and shows a logo with a basketball player 13 00:01:15,316 --> 00:01:18,516 Speaker 1: inside a recent concession to the world. We live in 14 00:01:19,276 --> 00:01:23,476 Speaker 1: the Replay Center, a place where basketball referees review the 15 00:01:23,556 --> 00:01:28,356 Speaker 1: calls made by other basketball referees in real time to 16 00:01:28,476 --> 00:01:33,476 Speaker 1: minimize referee error. The Replay Center was built to persuade 17 00:01:33,476 --> 00:01:47,676 Speaker 1: people that life was fair. I'm Michael Lewis, and this 18 00:01:48,436 --> 00:01:52,476 Speaker 1: is against the rules. It's a show about We'll give 19 00:01:52,516 --> 00:01:59,556 Speaker 1: me just a minute to get to that it doesn't 20 00:01:59,556 --> 00:02:03,076 Speaker 1: get beji or doesn't. It's like this is a place 21 00:02:03,076 --> 00:02:12,036 Speaker 1: where brown is an exciting color and the door is locked. 22 00:02:12,596 --> 00:02:27,476 Speaker 1: All right now for me, this story really begins not 23 00:02:27,516 --> 00:02:31,396 Speaker 1: in Secaucus, but in Berkeley, California, with my eleven year 24 00:02:31,396 --> 00:02:35,836 Speaker 1: old son. His name's Walker, Walker Lewis. He plays on 25 00:02:35,876 --> 00:02:38,636 Speaker 1: a basketball team run if you can believe it, by 26 00:02:38,676 --> 00:02:42,956 Speaker 1: a Japanese Buddhist temple. My son isn't a Buddhist. The 27 00:02:43,076 --> 00:02:45,236 Speaker 1: most of the time you could pass for one. He 28 00:02:45,276 --> 00:02:48,236 Speaker 1: has no conflict with his teachers, or his classmates, or 29 00:02:48,516 --> 00:02:52,276 Speaker 1: his Japanese Buddhist teammates. I wouldn't say his mind is 30 00:02:52,316 --> 00:02:57,636 Speaker 1: exactly pure, but usually it's calm. The exception is when 31 00:02:57,676 --> 00:03:01,396 Speaker 1: he deals with reffs, even Buddhist reffs. Anytime a reff 32 00:03:01,436 --> 00:03:03,276 Speaker 1: blows the whistle on him, he throws up his arms 33 00:03:03,276 --> 00:03:06,116 Speaker 1: in astonishment, and he jumps up and down with his 34 00:03:06,156 --> 00:03:09,476 Speaker 1: little fist balled up in his mouth clenched tight. Everyone 35 00:03:09,516 --> 00:03:13,756 Speaker 1: knows just how much injustice he's suffering. Then he marches 36 00:03:13,796 --> 00:03:16,796 Speaker 1: off with a scowl, and he doesn't get over it. 37 00:03:17,796 --> 00:03:19,876 Speaker 1: After a game this season, he gets into the car 38 00:03:20,036 --> 00:03:23,796 Speaker 1: and starts bitching and moaning, all over again. How did 39 00:03:23,796 --> 00:03:26,316 Speaker 1: it make you feel when the ref made those calls? 40 00:03:26,476 --> 00:03:31,996 Speaker 1: Very mad? Do you feel any better now? No, tell 41 00:03:32,036 --> 00:03:36,996 Speaker 1: me how it feels. It feels like someone keeps poking 42 00:03:37,036 --> 00:03:42,836 Speaker 1: you in the back of the shoulder and then saying, foul, foul, foul, foul. 43 00:03:43,316 --> 00:03:46,356 Speaker 1: Have you ever fouled out in your career? No? Did 44 00:03:46,356 --> 00:03:49,036 Speaker 1: you know that you were a risk of felling out? Guess? 45 00:03:49,076 --> 00:03:51,276 Speaker 1: But I also knew if I did, it would be 46 00:03:51,356 --> 00:03:54,636 Speaker 1: unfair because I knew that he was calling the stupidest fouls. 47 00:03:54,996 --> 00:04:00,676 Speaker 1: He'll look back and say, oh, I was being huge asshole. 48 00:04:03,716 --> 00:04:06,516 Speaker 1: Clay with the steel playing a full race? How's he 49 00:04:06,596 --> 00:04:10,796 Speaker 1: trying to catch him? Be cast? Play with him very degree. 50 00:04:10,836 --> 00:04:13,316 Speaker 1: The thing is, I know why my son does what 51 00:04:13,396 --> 00:04:16,676 Speaker 1: he does. He thinks he's Clay Thompson, the all star 52 00:04:16,796 --> 00:04:20,116 Speaker 1: shooting guard of the Golden State Warriors. They research back 53 00:04:20,156 --> 00:04:23,636 Speaker 1: the tops of three potters. When Clay hits a three, 54 00:04:23,836 --> 00:04:27,196 Speaker 1: Clay pounds his chest and points to the sky. And 55 00:04:27,236 --> 00:04:30,036 Speaker 1: so when Walker Lewis hits at three, he too pounds 56 00:04:30,076 --> 00:04:33,476 Speaker 1: his chest and points to the sky. I think we 57 00:04:33,556 --> 00:04:39,236 Speaker 1: got a technical foul as well, Clay. It's very unusual 58 00:04:39,916 --> 00:04:43,436 Speaker 1: when Clay's called for a fowl, he scowls and throws 59 00:04:43,516 --> 00:04:47,036 Speaker 1: up his arms in astonishment, and sometimes even says something 60 00:04:47,036 --> 00:04:49,836 Speaker 1: to the ref that gets him slapped with the technicals owl. 61 00:04:50,196 --> 00:04:55,596 Speaker 1: He only had one regular season, and Clay's the famously 62 00:04:55,676 --> 00:04:59,836 Speaker 1: most laid back All Star in the entire National Basketball Association. 63 00:05:00,196 --> 00:05:03,676 Speaker 1: Something has happened in the relationship between referees and players 64 00:05:03,676 --> 00:05:07,076 Speaker 1: over the last I guess year or two. That's Ramona Shelburne. 65 00:05:07,156 --> 00:05:10,116 Speaker 1: She's covered the NBA for the last decade for ESPN. 66 00:05:10,556 --> 00:05:14,276 Speaker 1: It's been quite frankly ugly. This year. One of the 67 00:05:14,316 --> 00:05:19,796 Speaker 1: Warriors headbutted a reth another chucked his disgusting mouthguard off 68 00:05:19,796 --> 00:05:27,396 Speaker 1: a ref's chest. Raymond Careful, who's already has a technical game, 69 00:05:27,716 --> 00:05:29,876 Speaker 1: and some of the stuff I've seen, I mean, when 70 00:05:30,156 --> 00:05:34,236 Speaker 1: Draymond Green is getting fined for calling Laurena holecap and 71 00:05:34,636 --> 00:05:37,356 Speaker 1: can we cuss on your podcast? I think we already 72 00:05:37,396 --> 00:05:40,596 Speaker 1: have you know, a fucking bitch, like like when when 73 00:05:40,636 --> 00:05:43,036 Speaker 1: he is saying that to a female referee and getting 74 00:05:43,076 --> 00:05:47,356 Speaker 1: fined and suspended for that, man, that's next level and 75 00:05:47,756 --> 00:05:51,156 Speaker 1: I haven't seen that before this season. It's the Stars 76 00:05:51,276 --> 00:05:56,076 Speaker 1: now who are really pushing the issue, right, it's Kevin 77 00:05:56,156 --> 00:05:59,556 Speaker 1: Durant getting thrown out of games, it's Steph Curry getting 78 00:05:59,596 --> 00:06:06,996 Speaker 1: thrown out. Warriors completely unraveled. In a single season. Bad 79 00:06:07,076 --> 00:06:10,476 Speaker 1: behavior got various Golden State Warriors tossed out of ten 80 00:06:10,596 --> 00:06:15,236 Speaker 1: different basketball games. Kevin Durant, their best player, tie a 81 00:06:15,356 --> 00:06:18,796 Speaker 1: league record by getting tossed from five games, all by himself. 82 00:06:19,316 --> 00:06:22,436 Speaker 1: The men who coached the Stars aren't much better. Even 83 00:06:22,516 --> 00:06:26,916 Speaker 1: Steve Kerr, the Warriors famously decent, civic minded coach, I 84 00:06:27,036 --> 00:06:29,996 Speaker 1: can snap, I can completely lose it if you back 85 00:06:30,076 --> 00:06:33,076 Speaker 1: away from the Golden State Warriors. I mean, they are 86 00:06:33,116 --> 00:06:36,356 Speaker 1: exemplars of the way people should behave, especially your stars. 87 00:06:36,596 --> 00:06:39,636 Speaker 1: They're like impeccably behave people. I'm so pleased to have 88 00:06:39,836 --> 00:06:44,596 Speaker 1: my son emulating your players. The only time they have 89 00:06:44,796 --> 00:06:48,716 Speaker 1: problems really is with referees. Yeah, I can't imagine you 90 00:06:48,876 --> 00:06:53,036 Speaker 1: in your life have another relationship like you have with referees. No, 91 00:06:53,236 --> 00:06:56,796 Speaker 1: you're right, You're right. I would never say the things 92 00:06:56,916 --> 00:07:00,876 Speaker 1: that I do to referees to a person in normal life. 93 00:07:01,156 --> 00:07:03,436 Speaker 1: It happens two or three times a year, and I've 94 00:07:03,476 --> 00:07:07,156 Speaker 1: been caught on camera. You know, amfing a ref and 95 00:07:07,396 --> 00:07:09,036 Speaker 1: you know my daughter will send me a text like that, 96 00:07:09,196 --> 00:07:10,876 Speaker 1: what are you doing? It's all over Twitter. I can 97 00:07:10,916 --> 00:07:13,996 Speaker 1: read your lips. This is embarrassed and I'm embarrassed. So 98 00:07:14,156 --> 00:07:17,316 Speaker 1: why is that? You know? It's a sense of right 99 00:07:17,436 --> 00:07:19,676 Speaker 1: or wrong, you know, and I feel like there's like 100 00:07:19,796 --> 00:07:26,636 Speaker 1: this personal offense, like something unfair is happening, which brings 101 00:07:26,756 --> 00:07:29,916 Speaker 1: me to my hunch it has to do with referees, 102 00:07:30,156 --> 00:07:34,836 Speaker 1: and not just basketball referees. The people everywhere charged not 103 00:07:34,996 --> 00:07:38,196 Speaker 1: just with enforcing rules, but with preserving a sense of 104 00:07:38,276 --> 00:07:43,116 Speaker 1: fairness on Wall Street, in the news, in courts of law, 105 00:07:43,916 --> 00:07:46,836 Speaker 1: in the many little disputes that pock mark everyday life. 106 00:07:47,676 --> 00:07:50,236 Speaker 1: There are many different kinds of refs, and most of 107 00:07:50,276 --> 00:07:53,476 Speaker 1: them are into some kind of attack. So maybe it's 108 00:07:53,516 --> 00:07:56,396 Speaker 1: not that surprising that Americans one day woke up and 109 00:07:56,636 --> 00:08:00,316 Speaker 1: thrilled to the message that life was unfair. You know, 110 00:08:00,476 --> 00:08:06,996 Speaker 1: the system is rigged, sged acmom, banking system is rigged, 111 00:08:07,036 --> 00:08:09,716 Speaker 1: and ystem. There's a lot of things that are rigged 112 00:08:09,716 --> 00:08:12,996 Speaker 1: in this world of ours, not to fairness that we 113 00:08:13,156 --> 00:08:17,036 Speaker 1: grew up believing that a miracle was about, which brings 114 00:08:17,076 --> 00:08:22,676 Speaker 1: me to what this show is about the people whose 115 00:08:22,756 --> 00:08:26,156 Speaker 1: job it is to maximize fairness, not just in sports, 116 00:08:26,316 --> 00:08:30,436 Speaker 1: but most everywhere. What's happening to them tells us a 117 00:08:30,516 --> 00:08:40,036 Speaker 1: lot about what's happening to us. You have to listen closely, 118 00:08:40,796 --> 00:08:43,196 Speaker 1: but you can hear that same chant in a lot 119 00:08:43,236 --> 00:09:11,876 Speaker 1: of American life. Ref you suck. Here we go back 120 00:09:11,916 --> 00:09:16,276 Speaker 1: at the NBA's offices in Secaucus, New Jersey. Someone eventually 121 00:09:16,356 --> 00:09:18,676 Speaker 1: came and unlocked the door, and then they led me 122 00:09:18,756 --> 00:09:21,196 Speaker 1: down a hall filled with a lot of old basketball stuff, 123 00:09:21,716 --> 00:09:25,556 Speaker 1: jerseys and bobble heads and basketballs and posters of Michael Jordan. 124 00:09:26,356 --> 00:09:32,476 Speaker 1: The Replay Center was the ultimate man cave. It's also 125 00:09:32,516 --> 00:09:37,156 Speaker 1: the latest weapon in the battle for fairness. So this place, 126 00:09:37,316 --> 00:09:40,156 Speaker 1: just on first of you, is amazing. It's wall to 127 00:09:40,236 --> 00:09:43,516 Speaker 1: wall screens, one hundred and ten of them. What's on 128 00:09:43,676 --> 00:09:46,156 Speaker 1: them is whatever is captured by all the cameras in 129 00:09:46,276 --> 00:09:49,836 Speaker 1: twenty nine NBA arenas across the country. This isn't the 130 00:09:49,916 --> 00:09:53,876 Speaker 1: broadcast video with commercials and commentary. The screens here don't 131 00:09:53,916 --> 00:09:55,836 Speaker 1: even have the scores of the games on them were 132 00:09:55,836 --> 00:09:59,796 Speaker 1: the names of the teams playing. And they're muted. Which 133 00:09:59,836 --> 00:10:03,316 Speaker 1: you hear is referees staring at basketball games, which you 134 00:10:03,436 --> 00:10:08,636 Speaker 1: see is nothing but angles on professional basketball courts. Nobody's 135 00:10:08,676 --> 00:10:10,036 Speaker 1: on a walk in here and walk down and said 136 00:10:10,076 --> 00:10:12,876 Speaker 1: this polaby sucks. And I'm not going to say it 137 00:10:12,956 --> 00:10:16,956 Speaker 1: sucks either. That's Joe Borgia, who designed the center back 138 00:10:16,996 --> 00:10:21,156 Speaker 1: in twenty fourteen and now runs it. Before he volunteered 139 00:10:21,236 --> 00:10:25,676 Speaker 1: for a secaucus duty, he refereed NBA games. His father 140 00:10:25,796 --> 00:10:28,516 Speaker 1: was an NBA ref before him, with a break in 141 00:10:28,596 --> 00:10:32,076 Speaker 1: the late sixties. A. Borgia has been reffing professional basketball 142 00:10:32,156 --> 00:10:35,276 Speaker 1: games since nineteen forty six. If you went back to 143 00:10:35,596 --> 00:10:37,796 Speaker 1: your dad at the beginning of his career and said 144 00:10:37,876 --> 00:10:39,436 Speaker 1: this is what it's going to look like. What do 145 00:10:39,516 --> 00:10:41,596 Speaker 1: you think he'd have said? If I told him we 146 00:10:41,636 --> 00:10:43,956 Speaker 1: would have replay? He turnover and it is great. Forget 147 00:10:43,956 --> 00:10:47,356 Speaker 1: about a replay center. Is that right? Oh? Absolutely? You see, 148 00:10:47,356 --> 00:10:50,676 Speaker 1: the refs used to insist on their authority at any rate. 149 00:10:50,716 --> 00:10:52,956 Speaker 1: Everyone agreed that there was no better way to ensure 150 00:10:52,956 --> 00:10:55,396 Speaker 1: the fairness of the game than to let the ref 151 00:10:55,516 --> 00:10:59,196 Speaker 1: play God. The replay center is an admission the ref 152 00:10:59,356 --> 00:11:03,796 Speaker 1: is not God, that he makes mistakes. I think the 153 00:11:03,876 --> 00:11:06,836 Speaker 1: mention of replay. None of us liked it when we 154 00:11:06,956 --> 00:11:11,556 Speaker 1: first heard it. It's unnecessary, evil, it's necessary. You have 155 00:11:11,796 --> 00:11:16,036 Speaker 1: to have it today. Everything's tape. Now everyone pays more 156 00:11:16,076 --> 00:11:19,396 Speaker 1: attention to the referee's mistakes, so the NBA has to 157 00:11:19,556 --> 00:11:22,396 Speaker 1: as well. Now, when a ref thinks he might have 158 00:11:22,436 --> 00:11:24,916 Speaker 1: screwed up some call or didn't get a good look 159 00:11:24,916 --> 00:11:28,716 Speaker 1: at the action, he twirls his fingers in the air. 160 00:11:30,436 --> 00:11:32,396 Speaker 1: That's the signal to the ref and the replay center, 161 00:11:32,516 --> 00:11:36,116 Speaker 1: who goes to work reviewing the tape looking for the 162 00:11:36,156 --> 00:11:39,516 Speaker 1: best angle to figure out what actually happened. That's the 163 00:11:39,596 --> 00:11:41,996 Speaker 1: thing is everybody can see it now exactly. You can't 164 00:11:41,996 --> 00:11:44,316 Speaker 1: have them be in a better position to judge the 165 00:11:44,396 --> 00:11:48,436 Speaker 1: game than the referees. The replay centers what allows refs 166 00:11:48,476 --> 00:11:51,596 Speaker 1: on a basketball court to change their calls. A lot 167 00:11:51,636 --> 00:11:54,876 Speaker 1: of those calls are subjective, like whether one player fouled another. 168 00:11:55,716 --> 00:11:57,476 Speaker 1: The rests on the court still make most of those 169 00:11:57,516 --> 00:12:02,676 Speaker 1: calls themselves. The exception is when the foul is flagranting. Sure, duke, 170 00:12:02,716 --> 00:12:06,636 Speaker 1: we're gonna give me two good angles. That's the first one. 171 00:12:06,676 --> 00:12:08,716 Speaker 1: The other one's going to give you. There's blood on 172 00:12:08,796 --> 00:12:13,636 Speaker 1: the screws. Kevin Love's front tooth got knocked in. Love 173 00:12:13,756 --> 00:12:16,796 Speaker 1: plays for the Cleveland Cavaliers and the question is did 174 00:12:16,836 --> 00:12:19,076 Speaker 1: the guy who popped him in the mouth do it intentionally? 175 00:12:19,156 --> 00:12:22,236 Speaker 1: It's a sebasketball point, Kevin Lug happens to move into 176 00:12:22,316 --> 00:12:25,236 Speaker 1: where the guy's elbow was going on. The refs need 177 00:12:25,316 --> 00:12:29,436 Speaker 1: to decide if the violence was not just excessive but unsportsmanlike, 178 00:12:30,076 --> 00:12:33,116 Speaker 1: which sounds our keg because we sort of lost the concept. 179 00:12:33,356 --> 00:12:37,356 Speaker 1: So the blood doesn't sweat the decision. Huh. Listen, there's 180 00:12:37,356 --> 00:12:39,476 Speaker 1: a lot of contacts, a lot of its acres that 181 00:12:42,476 --> 00:12:45,396 Speaker 1: the players all stand around scratching themselves while the refs 182 00:12:45,436 --> 00:12:47,556 Speaker 1: put on headsets and talked to the replay center. We're 183 00:12:47,596 --> 00:12:50,316 Speaker 1: looking for the unnatchural. Did he throw his elbow out? 184 00:12:50,796 --> 00:12:54,036 Speaker 1: So the fo the fouls on cavil up correct. I 185 00:12:54,116 --> 00:12:56,236 Speaker 1: thought he was outside his move. He was moving. Its late, 186 00:12:56,556 --> 00:12:58,476 Speaker 1: Come on, you gotta be quick. One days stuck on 187 00:12:58,516 --> 00:13:01,556 Speaker 1: the blood coming out of his mouth. Yeah, it's the 188 00:13:01,636 --> 00:13:06,116 Speaker 1: whole thing. Only takes thirty seconds, thirty seconds in which players, fans, 189 00:13:06,316 --> 00:13:08,756 Speaker 1: coaches get even more pissed off at the rest for 190 00:13:08,836 --> 00:13:12,076 Speaker 1: taking so long. The only thing stopping the replay center 191 00:13:12,116 --> 00:13:14,996 Speaker 1: from checking every decision is that it slows the game down. 192 00:13:16,036 --> 00:13:19,316 Speaker 1: Here in Secaucus is still trying to figure out how 193 00:13:19,356 --> 00:13:21,236 Speaker 1: they might talk to the refs as they run up 194 00:13:21,276 --> 00:13:23,396 Speaker 1: and down the court, because if they could do that, 195 00:13:23,596 --> 00:13:26,036 Speaker 1: they could just fix every call on the fly. The 196 00:13:26,236 --> 00:13:30,156 Speaker 1: Special Forces we found that we actually used a chip 197 00:13:30,316 --> 00:13:33,676 Speaker 1: over the bowler that worked off the vibration of the bone. 198 00:13:34,316 --> 00:13:37,036 Speaker 1: Believe or not. Wead that we got a handful of 199 00:13:37,196 --> 00:13:40,796 Speaker 1: Gene League referees molded and we tested that to wear 200 00:13:40,836 --> 00:13:44,756 Speaker 1: a chip over their molar. But it wasn't good enough 201 00:13:44,916 --> 00:13:47,596 Speaker 1: because they didn't know where the voice was coming from. 202 00:13:49,876 --> 00:13:52,596 Speaker 1: It was just a voice in their heads. They didn't 203 00:13:52,596 --> 00:13:56,556 Speaker 1: know where it was. This is actually insane the time 204 00:13:56,596 --> 00:13:59,156 Speaker 1: and money now being spent to ensure the fairness of what, 205 00:13:59,356 --> 00:14:03,316 Speaker 1: after all, is just a basketball game. A jillion miles 206 00:14:03,356 --> 00:14:05,796 Speaker 1: a fiber optic cable connect this room directly to the 207 00:14:05,916 --> 00:14:09,036 Speaker 1: NBA arenas around the country, all for two calls again 208 00:14:09,556 --> 00:14:12,636 Speaker 1: at two goals a game. Fifteen million dollars to build 209 00:14:12,676 --> 00:14:14,756 Speaker 1: this room to get two goals right the game. But 210 00:14:15,356 --> 00:14:19,876 Speaker 1: you gotta do it, You gotta do it. Can I 211 00:14:19,996 --> 00:14:23,116 Speaker 1: just pause here a moment just to consider what the 212 00:14:23,276 --> 00:14:25,556 Speaker 1: NBA has done in the past few years to improve 213 00:14:25,676 --> 00:14:29,596 Speaker 1: the calls. For example, they brought in serious managers to 214 00:14:29,716 --> 00:14:32,916 Speaker 1: hire and train the refs. Joe Borgia calls his boss 215 00:14:33,076 --> 00:14:36,276 Speaker 1: the general because she's actually a general and an Air 216 00:14:36,356 --> 00:14:40,196 Speaker 1: Force pilot. Her name is Michelle Johnson, and before she 217 00:14:40,276 --> 00:14:45,156 Speaker 1: supervised NBA refs, she ran the Air Force Academy. It 218 00:14:45,276 --> 00:14:47,796 Speaker 1: sounds like overkill to use a general to make sure 219 00:14:47,836 --> 00:14:51,116 Speaker 1: a basketball games are well reft, but the NBA thought 220 00:14:51,116 --> 00:14:55,876 Speaker 1: it needed overkill, or at least Adam Silver, the NBA Commissioner, did, 221 00:14:56,156 --> 00:15:00,516 Speaker 1: if people don't believe that the league office is unbiased 222 00:15:00,596 --> 00:15:02,996 Speaker 1: and that the officials are unbiased, you're gonna have a problem, 223 00:15:03,076 --> 00:15:06,396 Speaker 1: regardless of the accuracy of the calls. Silver took over 224 00:15:06,516 --> 00:15:09,556 Speaker 1: in twenty fourteen and also hired Joe Borge to create 225 00:15:09,636 --> 00:15:12,956 Speaker 1: the Replay Center. Since then, the NBA Commission has taken 226 00:15:12,956 --> 00:15:16,476 Speaker 1: a ridiculous amount of grief for trying to improve justice 227 00:15:16,716 --> 00:15:19,676 Speaker 1: in basketball. There are a group of people who think 228 00:15:19,996 --> 00:15:22,796 Speaker 1: that without the sort of transparency that we see in 229 00:15:22,876 --> 00:15:26,556 Speaker 1: this day and age, that it enabled certain officials and 230 00:15:26,716 --> 00:15:31,196 Speaker 1: maybe with a touch of frontier justice, to overall create 231 00:15:31,316 --> 00:15:34,156 Speaker 1: more of a fair environment. Even if that were true, 232 00:15:34,196 --> 00:15:36,636 Speaker 1: and I'm not sure it is, those days are over, 233 00:15:36,916 --> 00:15:39,436 Speaker 1: and I think it's whether it's in sports or other 234 00:15:39,556 --> 00:15:43,196 Speaker 1: walks of life that you cannot turn the clock back 235 00:15:43,316 --> 00:15:46,836 Speaker 1: on transparency. So here's what else Silver has done. He's 236 00:15:46,876 --> 00:15:49,356 Speaker 1: broad in the pool of people from which refs are selected. 237 00:15:49,956 --> 00:15:52,076 Speaker 1: They used to be mostly white men, mostly from the 238 00:15:52,116 --> 00:15:56,276 Speaker 1: same background. At one point fifteen years ago, four NBA 239 00:15:56,396 --> 00:15:59,156 Speaker 1: refs came from the same high school. He's hired more 240 00:15:59,236 --> 00:16:04,196 Speaker 1: black refs and female refs. He's insisted that referees be 241 00:16:04,276 --> 00:16:06,876 Speaker 1: physically fit so they can get into position to see 242 00:16:06,916 --> 00:16:09,876 Speaker 1: all the plays. While everyone else in AMA is getting fatter, 243 00:16:09,996 --> 00:16:13,516 Speaker 1: the rests are getting buff. They're also now getting new 244 00:16:13,596 --> 00:16:17,556 Speaker 1: feedback on all their bad calls. Silver decided to publish 245 00:16:17,636 --> 00:16:20,116 Speaker 1: the mistakes made by every reff in the last two 246 00:16:20,156 --> 00:16:23,076 Speaker 1: minutes of every game so everyone could see them. He 247 00:16:23,196 --> 00:16:27,036 Speaker 1: gives the teams and the refs a private document listing 248 00:16:27,196 --> 00:16:30,876 Speaker 1: every refereeing mistake. All this new data on refs means 249 00:16:30,916 --> 00:16:33,036 Speaker 1: that we and they know all sorts of strange things 250 00:16:33,076 --> 00:16:36,276 Speaker 1: about their minds. For instance, we now know that their 251 00:16:36,316 --> 00:16:40,196 Speaker 1: calls have tended to favor whichever team's losing. Their calls 252 00:16:40,196 --> 00:16:42,836 Speaker 1: also favor the home team. Some large part of home 253 00:16:42,916 --> 00:16:46,516 Speaker 1: court advantage is just the refs. The analytics department of 254 00:16:46,516 --> 00:16:48,596 Speaker 1: the Houston Rockets has even done a study that shows 255 00:16:48,596 --> 00:16:50,516 Speaker 1: that the home team that gets the best calls is 256 00:16:50,556 --> 00:16:55,196 Speaker 1: the Utah Jazz. Why Utah? Who knows? But you can 257 00:16:55,236 --> 00:16:58,076 Speaker 1: be sure that someone will figure that out. There's now 258 00:16:58,156 --> 00:17:04,116 Speaker 1: basically a small army of geeks analyzing all this new data. Look, 259 00:17:04,156 --> 00:17:07,276 Speaker 1: I don't really like writing papers about sports. I'm pre 260 00:17:07,316 --> 00:17:10,076 Speaker 1: feder write them about the economy. That's Justin Wolfers, a 261 00:17:10,156 --> 00:17:13,236 Speaker 1: behavioral economist at the University of Michigan and the co 262 00:17:13,436 --> 00:17:16,356 Speaker 1: author of a paper about NBA refs. But the thing is, 263 00:17:16,476 --> 00:17:20,436 Speaker 1: this is a domain where the NBA referees have tremendous 264 00:17:20,516 --> 00:17:24,276 Speaker 1: incentives not to make the wrong call. Every era they 265 00:17:24,356 --> 00:17:27,716 Speaker 1: make is tracked. Those eras determine whether they get more games. 266 00:17:27,836 --> 00:17:30,556 Speaker 1: Those games determine how much they get paid. This is 267 00:17:30,756 --> 00:17:34,916 Speaker 1: arguably the most analyzed workforce in the country. Basketball referees 268 00:17:34,956 --> 00:17:37,236 Speaker 1: are now picked apart in ways that not long ago 269 00:17:37,276 --> 00:17:40,396 Speaker 1: would have seemed preposterous, not just for the fairness of 270 00:17:40,436 --> 00:17:44,556 Speaker 1: their calls, but for their unconscious behavior. Wolfers took years 271 00:17:44,596 --> 00:17:46,796 Speaker 1: of data from every NBA game. Then he set out 272 00:17:46,796 --> 00:17:50,236 Speaker 1: to look for evidence of the reff's racial bias. The 273 00:17:50,356 --> 00:17:53,676 Speaker 1: question here isn't whether people are anti black or anti white, 274 00:17:54,076 --> 00:17:58,076 Speaker 1: but whether there's an in group bias. So, if a 275 00:17:58,516 --> 00:18:01,876 Speaker 1: predominantly black team is playing and the refereeing crew is 276 00:18:01,956 --> 00:18:05,916 Speaker 1: predominantly white, they're more fouls called against them than on 277 00:18:06,116 --> 00:18:09,556 Speaker 1: nights when the same team is playing with the dominantly 278 00:18:09,756 --> 00:18:12,876 Speaker 1: blank refereeing crew. And it turns out the answers yes. 279 00:18:13,356 --> 00:18:15,716 Speaker 1: Wolfers wrote his paper back in two thousand and seven, 280 00:18:16,116 --> 00:18:19,956 Speaker 1: before this new age of referee transparency. Well, it was 281 00:18:19,956 --> 00:18:21,716 Speaker 1: a bit of a lesson for me. You can probably 282 00:18:21,756 --> 00:18:24,356 Speaker 1: tell by my accident, Michael. I'm an Australian, you know. 283 00:18:24,356 --> 00:18:26,196 Speaker 1: I thought it was an interesting piece of social science. 284 00:18:26,356 --> 00:18:28,836 Speaker 1: It turned out the New York Times put it on 285 00:18:28,916 --> 00:18:33,116 Speaker 1: the front page and the NBA wasn't happy. The commissioner 286 00:18:33,156 --> 00:18:36,076 Speaker 1: at the time attacked the study and embarrassed the league 287 00:18:36,116 --> 00:18:39,716 Speaker 1: by trying and failing to refute its findings. This morning 288 00:18:39,756 --> 00:18:43,356 Speaker 1: we'll hear from the NBA Commissioner, David Stern. Our referees 289 00:18:43,356 --> 00:18:46,796 Speaker 1: are the most reviewed, most ranked, and most rated, and 290 00:18:46,956 --> 00:18:49,996 Speaker 1: that's why we take exception to what the Times did here. 291 00:18:50,316 --> 00:18:53,516 Speaker 1: That's Stern on NPR in two thousand and seven. The 292 00:18:53,676 --> 00:18:57,196 Speaker 1: result of all this coverage, every single referee was made 293 00:18:57,196 --> 00:19:01,036 Speaker 1: aware of his unconscious bias. When the dust settled, Justin 294 00:19:01,076 --> 00:19:03,196 Speaker 1: Wolfers was curious to know if his paper had had 295 00:19:03,196 --> 00:19:06,636 Speaker 1: any effect. He made another study of referees after the 296 00:19:06,756 --> 00:19:10,996 Speaker 1: controversy he'd created, and guess what demonstration study that we 297 00:19:11,116 --> 00:19:13,396 Speaker 1: did seems to suggest that that form of racial bias 298 00:19:13,516 --> 00:19:17,476 Speaker 1: is gone away. He has no idea why. Maybe simply 299 00:19:17,516 --> 00:19:19,436 Speaker 1: making the refs aware of the problem was enough to 300 00:19:19,476 --> 00:19:22,436 Speaker 1: correct it. But in the end this became a case 301 00:19:22,516 --> 00:19:28,236 Speaker 1: study not in ref ineptitude but ref reform. NBA refs 302 00:19:28,316 --> 00:19:32,316 Speaker 1: have achieved what police forces can only dream of, race blindness. 303 00:19:33,276 --> 00:19:36,116 Speaker 1: The refs have no choice. The world's now too good 304 00:19:36,156 --> 00:19:41,276 Speaker 1: at seeing their mistakes. Look, there's no way any basketball 305 00:19:41,356 --> 00:19:43,436 Speaker 1: referee is going to be perfect. But there's also no 306 00:19:43,596 --> 00:19:46,196 Speaker 1: way these refs or anything but more accurate than they've 307 00:19:46,196 --> 00:19:48,996 Speaker 1: ever been. I mean, even home court advantage means less 308 00:19:48,996 --> 00:19:51,396 Speaker 1: than it used to, and yet these refs are treated 309 00:19:51,516 --> 00:20:02,436 Speaker 1: as if they're trying to rig the games. Does the 310 00:20:02,516 --> 00:20:05,116 Speaker 1: sound of those eighteen thousand people screaming at you, are 311 00:20:05,196 --> 00:20:07,956 Speaker 1: booing you, does it sound any different than it sounded 312 00:20:07,996 --> 00:20:11,596 Speaker 1: when you started in nineteen ninety one. Yeah, there's there's 313 00:20:11,596 --> 00:20:14,396 Speaker 1: a little more anger involved, and you know it used 314 00:20:14,396 --> 00:20:17,636 Speaker 1: to be sort of the garden variety. You're terrible, you 315 00:20:17,756 --> 00:20:20,836 Speaker 1: suck any of those kinds of terms. That's Monte McCutcheon, 316 00:20:20,996 --> 00:20:24,356 Speaker 1: who recently quit reffing NBA games to serve as a 317 00:20:24,476 --> 00:20:28,036 Speaker 1: kind of life coach to the other NBA refs to 318 00:20:28,196 --> 00:20:31,916 Speaker 1: talk them through their problems. Now, you know, people do 319 00:20:32,036 --> 00:20:34,876 Speaker 1: their research. They things are out there on the internet. 320 00:20:34,956 --> 00:20:38,396 Speaker 1: They know your record with their team. They they've done 321 00:20:38,436 --> 00:20:40,676 Speaker 1: all there's all these sights on all these different they 322 00:20:40,716 --> 00:20:43,916 Speaker 1: know personal things about you. Oh sure, of course, some 323 00:20:44,076 --> 00:20:46,596 Speaker 1: death threats are made from time to time in playoff series, 324 00:20:46,676 --> 00:20:49,436 Speaker 1: and you'll get security all the way to both the 325 00:20:49,516 --> 00:20:51,796 Speaker 1: hotel and then the hotel the next morning out to 326 00:20:51,876 --> 00:20:54,676 Speaker 1: the airport. They security to the hotel not every night, 327 00:20:54,756 --> 00:20:57,316 Speaker 1: but when those threats are are a known factor that 328 00:20:57,436 --> 00:21:00,876 Speaker 1: has happened in my career, security to your car is 329 00:21:00,996 --> 00:21:05,516 Speaker 1: mandatory every night. Yep. These days refs need bodyguards to 330 00:21:05,796 --> 00:21:09,476 Speaker 1: escape after the game. Here are people who are mostly 331 00:21:09,516 --> 00:21:12,196 Speaker 1: just trying to do these extremely difficult jobs as well 332 00:21:12,236 --> 00:21:15,036 Speaker 1: as they can, and at some point you feel this 333 00:21:15,236 --> 00:21:18,316 Speaker 1: question rising up in you, in me. It rose up 334 00:21:18,356 --> 00:21:21,236 Speaker 1: while I was talking to Ramona Shelburne, the ESPN reporter. 335 00:21:21,596 --> 00:21:24,196 Speaker 1: Why would anybody want to be a ref Seriously? I 336 00:21:24,316 --> 00:21:28,236 Speaker 1: wonder that too. Man. You know, they're not allowed to 337 00:21:28,276 --> 00:21:30,756 Speaker 1: say anything. They're not allowed to explain themselves, they're not 338 00:21:30,796 --> 00:21:34,676 Speaker 1: allowed to defend themselves. Look, obviously, they get paid. They 339 00:21:34,756 --> 00:21:36,756 Speaker 1: started one hundred and fifty grand a year, and if 340 00:21:36,796 --> 00:21:39,036 Speaker 1: they're great at their job and work extra games, they 341 00:21:39,076 --> 00:21:41,636 Speaker 1: can make as much as five hundred. But there are 342 00:21:41,716 --> 00:21:44,156 Speaker 1: lots of ways to get paid without spending half your 343 00:21:44,236 --> 00:21:47,076 Speaker 1: life in hotel rooms and the other half being insulted 344 00:21:47,116 --> 00:21:49,796 Speaker 1: by arenas filled with crazy people. Do you think the 345 00:21:49,876 --> 00:21:52,916 Speaker 1: refereeing has gotten worse or better? I actually think it's 346 00:21:52,916 --> 00:21:55,476 Speaker 1: gotten better. Of course it's gotten better. How could it 347 00:21:55,596 --> 00:21:58,396 Speaker 1: not have. The mystery is why the stars and the 348 00:21:58,476 --> 00:22:00,876 Speaker 1: coaches and the fans act as if it's gotten worse. 349 00:22:02,276 --> 00:22:04,996 Speaker 1: I have a hundred about that too, which you'll hear 350 00:22:05,036 --> 00:22:18,036 Speaker 1: in a minute. Okay, So Sacramentals checking in right sore 351 00:22:19,396 --> 00:22:23,916 Speaker 1: ten Oclos on an hour before Clippers. So Golden Stag 352 00:22:23,956 --> 00:22:26,716 Speaker 1: will check in and the Clippers will check in about 353 00:22:26,916 --> 00:22:31,356 Speaker 1: the nine thirty I'm back with Joe Borgia in the 354 00:22:31,436 --> 00:22:35,396 Speaker 1: replay center. The refs here sit dressed in black, staring 355 00:22:35,436 --> 00:22:39,236 Speaker 1: at screens, waiting for a signal from somewhere in America. 356 00:22:40,316 --> 00:22:42,716 Speaker 1: The end of games is when they get most involved, 357 00:22:42,996 --> 00:22:46,236 Speaker 1: because that's when fans and coaches and players are most 358 00:22:46,276 --> 00:22:49,436 Speaker 1: likely to accuse some ref of having made the mistake 359 00:22:49,516 --> 00:22:52,756 Speaker 1: that change the outcome. Of course, a mistake at the 360 00:22:52,796 --> 00:22:54,556 Speaker 1: beginning has just as much effect on a game as 361 00:22:54,596 --> 00:22:56,916 Speaker 1: a mistake at the end. But the end is what 362 00:22:57,036 --> 00:23:01,516 Speaker 1: people notice and get outraged about, so the justice at 363 00:23:01,556 --> 00:23:03,796 Speaker 1: the end of the game must be more exact than 364 00:23:03,876 --> 00:23:07,116 Speaker 1: it is at the beginning. These replay center refs have 365 00:23:07,276 --> 00:23:10,556 Speaker 1: video technicians with them who can freeze a moment on screen, 366 00:23:11,316 --> 00:23:13,756 Speaker 1: then zoom out or zoom in so that the entire 367 00:23:13,876 --> 00:23:17,876 Speaker 1: screen contains only a player's fingertips or his toes. Here 368 00:23:17,916 --> 00:23:20,356 Speaker 1: you just scroll through tiny slivers of the game, not 369 00:23:20,476 --> 00:23:25,556 Speaker 1: the game itself, the slivers where injustices might occur. I mean, goodness, graces. 370 00:23:25,596 --> 00:23:28,036 Speaker 1: If you don't have slow motion in here or freeze frame, 371 00:23:28,436 --> 00:23:31,436 Speaker 1: it's very difficult. Of course, in slow motion you can 372 00:23:31,476 --> 00:23:35,796 Speaker 1: see things that the naked eye misses. Magicians sometimes perform 373 00:23:36,156 --> 00:23:40,076 Speaker 1: during halftimes of the NBA games. When Joe Borgi slows 374 00:23:40,116 --> 00:23:42,396 Speaker 1: it down, he can see how they do their tricks. 375 00:23:43,116 --> 00:23:45,396 Speaker 1: It's kind of the same thing with the players, exactly, 376 00:23:45,516 --> 00:23:47,636 Speaker 1: I can go with sixtieth of a second at a time. 377 00:23:48,276 --> 00:23:49,756 Speaker 1: He's going to pick a lot of little things. So 378 00:23:49,836 --> 00:23:52,556 Speaker 1: what these players are getting good at is creating optical illusions. 379 00:23:52,956 --> 00:23:54,436 Speaker 1: And then it comes to sort the sort of things 380 00:23:54,476 --> 00:23:57,196 Speaker 1: that a magician does well. Isn't flopping an optical illusion. 381 00:23:57,836 --> 00:24:00,556 Speaker 1: Flopping is what they call it when a player pretends 382 00:24:00,556 --> 00:24:03,516 Speaker 1: to have been knocked over by another player. Tricking the 383 00:24:03,596 --> 00:24:07,076 Speaker 1: refs into making bad calls is now considered a skill. Okay, 384 00:24:07,196 --> 00:24:09,836 Speaker 1: replay sing on gimma, so you just hit a game? 385 00:24:09,916 --> 00:24:12,556 Speaker 1: Ref in Houston twirls his fingers in the air. Some 386 00:24:12,756 --> 00:24:15,196 Speaker 1: players hit a three point shot at the buzzer or 387 00:24:15,316 --> 00:24:18,436 Speaker 1: has he The Houston reff wants to know if the 388 00:24:18,516 --> 00:24:21,676 Speaker 1: player's toe was on the three point line and if 389 00:24:21,716 --> 00:24:24,716 Speaker 1: he got off the shot before the buzzer. It's just 390 00:24:24,956 --> 00:24:27,956 Speaker 1: now that Joe says I can work the equipment, can I? 391 00:24:29,396 --> 00:24:36,156 Speaker 1: Just the truth is, I'm not a big equipment guy. 392 00:24:36,916 --> 00:24:39,396 Speaker 1: My first step when something needs to be assembled or 393 00:24:39,476 --> 00:24:42,436 Speaker 1: operated is to call someone and say I'll pay whatever 394 00:24:42,476 --> 00:24:46,316 Speaker 1: it costs. I start twisting dials just to see what happens. 395 00:24:46,836 --> 00:24:48,956 Speaker 1: They appear to cause the picture to zoom in and out. 396 00:24:49,516 --> 00:24:52,956 Speaker 1: Watch the referee on the bottom of the screen. There's 397 00:24:52,956 --> 00:24:55,796 Speaker 1: your SI. Yeah, you got to see that. You have 398 00:24:55,876 --> 00:24:58,316 Speaker 1: to see the referee doing that? Are you? Someone may 399 00:24:58,396 --> 00:25:03,796 Speaker 1: say something. There's a lot of subjectivity in refee, but 400 00:25:03,876 --> 00:25:05,836 Speaker 1: a whole bunch of the questions that arise on a 401 00:25:05,876 --> 00:25:10,076 Speaker 1: basketball court have objective answers, like who touched the ball 402 00:25:10,196 --> 00:25:12,676 Speaker 1: last before it went out of bounds? Or was there 403 00:25:12,716 --> 00:25:14,836 Speaker 1: still time on the clock before the shot left the 404 00:25:14,876 --> 00:25:18,916 Speaker 1: player's hands. This is one of those. Did the player's 405 00:25:18,996 --> 00:25:21,436 Speaker 1: foot touch the three point line when he leapt for 406 00:25:21,556 --> 00:25:25,076 Speaker 1: his shot? Did the ball leave his fingertips before the 407 00:25:25,116 --> 00:25:29,036 Speaker 1: buzzer sounded one of the dials, or maybe it's actually 408 00:25:29,036 --> 00:25:31,596 Speaker 1: a joystick. Lets me choose which angle of the court 409 00:25:31,636 --> 00:25:35,796 Speaker 1: I see. I need to find one still frame with 410 00:25:35,876 --> 00:25:38,476 Speaker 1: the shooter's foot in it and another with the clock 411 00:25:38,556 --> 00:25:41,116 Speaker 1: in it. Then I need to freeze the picture in 412 00:25:41,196 --> 00:25:43,756 Speaker 1: the one sixtieth of a second that the ball left 413 00:25:43,796 --> 00:25:48,316 Speaker 1: the shooter's fingertips just then I realized I have no 414 00:25:48,516 --> 00:25:50,836 Speaker 1: idea who the player is. I don't even know which 415 00:25:50,916 --> 00:25:54,196 Speaker 1: team he's on. All I know is he's in Houston. 416 00:25:55,516 --> 00:26:00,116 Speaker 1: Can I get it here? All the same, it's pretty 417 00:26:00,236 --> 00:26:05,756 Speaker 1: much yeah, Houston still waiting on me. I didn't. I 418 00:26:05,796 --> 00:26:07,756 Speaker 1: think it occurred to me at that moment that they 419 00:26:07,796 --> 00:26:10,596 Speaker 1: were possibly actually using what I was doing, and that 420 00:26:10,716 --> 00:26:13,116 Speaker 1: because it was a little bit of anxiety. The coaches 421 00:26:13,236 --> 00:26:17,036 Speaker 1: get to stop the game with pointless timeouts. The advertisers 422 00:26:17,116 --> 00:26:19,596 Speaker 1: get to stop the game to sell beer. But when 423 00:26:19,636 --> 00:26:21,916 Speaker 1: a ref stops a game to make it more fair, 424 00:26:22,436 --> 00:26:25,956 Speaker 1: the crowd booze and the announcers launch attacks on them. 425 00:26:26,916 --> 00:26:28,956 Speaker 1: It's not enough to be right, You've got to be fast. 426 00:26:30,116 --> 00:26:33,036 Speaker 1: Borgia tracks the average response time of the replay refs. 427 00:26:33,076 --> 00:26:35,596 Speaker 1: It's between twenty and thirty seconds. Okay, the replay under 428 00:26:35,596 --> 00:26:41,036 Speaker 1: official confirmed successful. Three point you got it right? The 429 00:26:41,196 --> 00:26:44,356 Speaker 1: problems dealt with I think it is, But right away 430 00:26:44,396 --> 00:26:48,356 Speaker 1: another one comes up on a bunch of screens showing 431 00:26:48,436 --> 00:26:51,996 Speaker 1: one arena. All these people are jumping around and hollering 432 00:26:52,036 --> 00:26:55,756 Speaker 1: at refs. The ruckets appears to be confined to Cleveland, 433 00:26:55,876 --> 00:26:58,676 Speaker 1: but in here it feels like the entire universe is disturbed. 434 00:26:59,436 --> 00:27:03,876 Speaker 1: It turns out Lebron James is upset. He's arguing there, 435 00:27:03,956 --> 00:27:07,116 Speaker 1: he goes roun is going from ref to ref. He 436 00:27:07,156 --> 00:27:10,276 Speaker 1: seems to know which refs to are with. Yeah, they're 437 00:27:10,316 --> 00:27:15,396 Speaker 1: talking about goalten, so they're talking about they're talking about it. 438 00:27:16,236 --> 00:27:19,076 Speaker 1: I think they might change that James is James. Any 439 00:27:19,156 --> 00:27:21,036 Speaker 1: other guy had the best angle? Do you think that 440 00:27:22,036 --> 00:27:27,036 Speaker 1: Lebron James has any effect doing that? The ref in 441 00:27:27,156 --> 00:27:30,116 Speaker 1: Cleveland is not twirling his finger. There's no signal to 442 00:27:30,276 --> 00:27:34,076 Speaker 1: us to do anything in the replay center. Lebron's drama, 443 00:27:34,596 --> 00:27:39,116 Speaker 1: strictly speaking, is pointless. It's strange the way these players argue. 444 00:27:39,516 --> 00:27:41,876 Speaker 1: They must think that if they make life unpleasant enough 445 00:27:41,916 --> 00:27:44,116 Speaker 1: for the ref, he'll think twice before the next call. 446 00:27:48,316 --> 00:27:51,556 Speaker 1: It's then that it occurs to me, just looking around 447 00:27:51,596 --> 00:27:54,596 Speaker 1: the room at one hundred and ten TV screens, I've 448 00:27:54,676 --> 00:27:57,316 Speaker 1: had a hard time following the games, never mind the scores. 449 00:27:57,596 --> 00:28:00,356 Speaker 1: I sometimes don't even know which teams are playing. But 450 00:28:00,516 --> 00:28:02,956 Speaker 1: every time a player gets up into a referees phase, 451 00:28:03,476 --> 00:28:06,756 Speaker 1: I've recognized the player. And I actually don't know that 452 00:28:06,876 --> 00:28:09,436 Speaker 1: many NBA players, but I know all the ones who 453 00:28:09,476 --> 00:28:12,676 Speaker 1: pitch these hissy fits because the only players getting up 454 00:28:12,716 --> 00:28:15,276 Speaker 1: into the faces of the refs are the famous players 455 00:28:15,876 --> 00:28:19,116 Speaker 1: or the coaches who protect them. Ramona Shelburne put her 456 00:28:19,116 --> 00:28:22,796 Speaker 1: finger on it. The more aggressive behavior towards reffs isn't 457 00:28:22,836 --> 00:28:42,396 Speaker 1: coming from every player, It's coming from the stars. So 458 00:28:42,596 --> 00:28:44,596 Speaker 1: we just got really interested in a very simple question 459 00:28:44,796 --> 00:28:49,636 Speaker 1: of does this sense of being privileged make you disobey 460 00:28:49,916 --> 00:28:51,796 Speaker 1: the rules of the road or the laws of the land. 461 00:28:52,116 --> 00:28:55,276 Speaker 1: That's Daker Keltner. He's a professor of psychology at cal 462 00:28:55,396 --> 00:28:59,116 Speaker 1: Berkeley and someone who wonders about the effect inequality has 463 00:28:59,236 --> 00:29:02,516 Speaker 1: on people's behavior. It experience I had at Berkeley whereas 464 00:29:03,036 --> 00:29:06,036 Speaker 1: riding my bike up this hill and I got to 465 00:29:06,116 --> 00:29:08,196 Speaker 1: the four away stop sign and I was halfway through 466 00:29:08,236 --> 00:29:15,236 Speaker 1: this Fouraway stops sign and this guy in a black 467 00:29:15,316 --> 00:29:19,316 Speaker 1: Mercedes rolled through the stop sign. Is halfway there is 468 00:29:19,356 --> 00:29:21,236 Speaker 1: a foot away from me, about to take me out, 469 00:29:21,276 --> 00:29:23,756 Speaker 1: and he's on a cell phone. And I looked at him. 470 00:29:23,796 --> 00:29:25,956 Speaker 1: I was ready to take him on, like all right, buddy, 471 00:29:25,996 --> 00:29:29,116 Speaker 1: this is it. And what was most telling about this 472 00:29:29,276 --> 00:29:31,716 Speaker 1: whole experience was he looked at me as if I 473 00:29:31,876 --> 00:29:33,956 Speaker 1: was in the wrong and I should get out of 474 00:29:33,996 --> 00:29:35,756 Speaker 1: his way, and you know, even though I'd made it 475 00:29:35,796 --> 00:29:39,796 Speaker 1: through the stop sign first. So Daker in a colleague 476 00:29:39,876 --> 00:29:43,996 Speaker 1: dreamed up this weird experiment. They hid two Berkeley undergraduates 477 00:29:44,076 --> 00:29:48,076 Speaker 1: in the bushes near four way stop signs. The undergrads 478 00:29:48,196 --> 00:29:50,836 Speaker 1: noted the makes of all cars coming through the intersection 479 00:29:51,196 --> 00:29:55,076 Speaker 1: assigned them numbers one to five according to their market value. 480 00:29:55,516 --> 00:29:58,476 Speaker 1: A new Mercedes was a five, a Honda was a three, 481 00:29:59,196 --> 00:30:01,596 Speaker 1: and an old Pacer was a one. We positioned a 482 00:30:01,636 --> 00:30:05,196 Speaker 1: Berkeley undergrad by a pedestrian zone, and we make sure 483 00:30:05,276 --> 00:30:07,436 Speaker 1: they look like they want to cross the street right, 484 00:30:07,516 --> 00:30:10,196 Speaker 1: and they're sort of leaning into the pedest zone where 485 00:30:10,236 --> 00:30:13,756 Speaker 1: it's required by California law to stop. It's a game 486 00:30:13,836 --> 00:30:16,956 Speaker 1: of one on one at the California crosswalk, one car 487 00:30:17,356 --> 00:30:22,916 Speaker 1: versus one pedestrian, and zero percent of the drivers of 488 00:30:23,156 --> 00:30:27,196 Speaker 1: poor cars zoom through the pedestrian zone. They all stop, 489 00:30:27,836 --> 00:30:30,396 Speaker 1: and forty some odd percent, forty five percent of the 490 00:30:30,476 --> 00:30:33,876 Speaker 1: drivers of the fives of rich cars blaze through the 491 00:30:33,956 --> 00:30:36,796 Speaker 1: pedestrian zone and just say the rules don't apply to me. 492 00:30:37,636 --> 00:30:44,996 Speaker 1: I'll carry on. This one study led to a bunch 493 00:30:45,036 --> 00:30:48,356 Speaker 1: of others that showed basically the same pattern of human behavior. 494 00:30:48,476 --> 00:30:52,676 Speaker 1: Another experiment, we bring people to the lab and as 495 00:30:52,716 --> 00:30:56,716 Speaker 1: they're leaving, there's this big bowl of candy and it's 496 00:30:56,796 --> 00:30:58,756 Speaker 1: like and it says on it for the children of 497 00:30:58,796 --> 00:31:02,436 Speaker 1: the Institute of Human Development on the bowl, and we say, oh, 498 00:31:02,476 --> 00:31:04,356 Speaker 1: you gonna take a candy or two if as you're leaving, 499 00:31:05,036 --> 00:31:07,196 Speaker 1: and well to we count up how many candies they 500 00:31:07,276 --> 00:31:10,636 Speaker 1: take after they leave the experiment. Privileged people grab a 501 00:31:10,716 --> 00:31:13,796 Speaker 1: big handful of candy compared to poorer people. So let's 502 00:31:13,876 --> 00:31:17,596 Speaker 1: turn the conversation something much more important. Basketball, most important 503 00:31:17,596 --> 00:31:20,596 Speaker 1: of all. In the last five or six years, the 504 00:31:20,836 --> 00:31:25,196 Speaker 1: NBA has embarked on essentially a dramatic reform of refereing. 505 00:31:25,596 --> 00:31:30,076 Speaker 1: At the same time, the friction between the players and 506 00:31:30,356 --> 00:31:32,316 Speaker 1: some of the owners and some of the coaches and 507 00:31:32,436 --> 00:31:34,996 Speaker 1: the refs is going through the roof. The source of 508 00:31:35,036 --> 00:31:38,116 Speaker 1: the outrage is the star players. The people are getting 509 00:31:38,116 --> 00:31:40,436 Speaker 1: thrown out of games, or Kevin Durant and Steph Curry 510 00:31:40,516 --> 00:31:43,476 Speaker 1: and James Harden and the Warriors, the most famous team 511 00:31:43,516 --> 00:31:45,996 Speaker 1: ever to walk on the court, are the chief culprits 512 00:31:46,036 --> 00:31:48,756 Speaker 1: exhibit a and bad behavior towards refs. So you got 513 00:31:48,836 --> 00:31:52,356 Speaker 1: this weird combination. Yeah, that's fascinating. You know, I still 514 00:31:52,436 --> 00:31:54,876 Speaker 1: remember being a Lakers fan, you know, the great Magic 515 00:31:54,996 --> 00:31:58,716 Speaker 1: Johnson teams and watching Larry Bird do his nine step 516 00:31:58,836 --> 00:32:00,756 Speaker 1: layup and I'm like, come on, make the call. You know. 517 00:32:01,516 --> 00:32:05,036 Speaker 1: Larry Bird was like Lebron the New Mercedes of his day. 518 00:32:05,876 --> 00:32:08,476 Speaker 1: He played with certain assumptions about the rules and how 519 00:32:08,556 --> 00:32:11,796 Speaker 1: they apply to him. For most players of his era, 520 00:32:12,036 --> 00:32:15,636 Speaker 1: two steps counted as traveling. The inequality on a basketball 521 00:32:15,676 --> 00:32:17,996 Speaker 1: court is more found, it's profound, and it's more profound 522 00:32:17,996 --> 00:32:20,916 Speaker 1: there wasn't Larry Bird's era. Larry Bird was a millionaire. 523 00:32:21,356 --> 00:32:24,796 Speaker 1: Lebron James might be a billionaire, and these guys are 524 00:32:25,036 --> 00:32:28,516 Speaker 1: global franchises. Yeah, so you've got, in a funny way, 525 00:32:28,556 --> 00:32:31,436 Speaker 1: a microcosm. It's an odd microcosm on a basketball court 526 00:32:31,436 --> 00:32:36,436 Speaker 1: of what's going on in the largest society. The NBA 527 00:32:36,596 --> 00:32:40,076 Speaker 1: is set out to ref the game more objectively, more accurately, 528 00:32:40,596 --> 00:32:44,196 Speaker 1: more fairly. This has enraged the stars and their fans 529 00:32:44,236 --> 00:32:48,116 Speaker 1: and coaches. You want to know why, the more objectivity 530 00:32:48,196 --> 00:32:52,636 Speaker 1: there is, the less power they have. Objective refs eliminate 531 00:32:52,756 --> 00:32:56,756 Speaker 1: some of their privilege. The stars can't get the calls anymore. 532 00:32:56,996 --> 00:33:02,076 Speaker 1: Just because they're stars, or anyway not as often. Lebron 533 00:33:02,276 --> 00:33:05,116 Speaker 1: James and Kevin Durant and Steph Curry and Clay Thompson, 534 00:33:05,916 --> 00:33:08,796 Speaker 1: they'll all survive better refs because they're actually just better 535 00:33:08,876 --> 00:33:12,876 Speaker 1: than everyone else. They don't need unfairness to win. But 536 00:33:12,996 --> 00:33:15,876 Speaker 1: what happens where there are no replay centers, where there's 537 00:33:15,876 --> 00:33:19,956 Speaker 1: no hope for pure objectivity or technology to improve calls, 538 00:33:20,956 --> 00:33:23,836 Speaker 1: where the refs can no longer defend themselves from the stars. 539 00:33:25,716 --> 00:33:30,476 Speaker 1: Welcome to the reason for our show. I think American 540 00:33:30,596 --> 00:33:32,756 Speaker 1: life just now has at least one thing in common 541 00:33:32,836 --> 00:33:36,756 Speaker 1: with basketball. The authority of its referees is under attack. 542 00:33:37,636 --> 00:33:39,876 Speaker 1: And when you have a weak referee, you have a 543 00:33:39,956 --> 00:33:43,156 Speaker 1: big problem. Because a weak referee is a referee who 544 00:33:43,196 --> 00:33:48,316 Speaker 1: can be bought, or intimidated or just simply ignored. A 545 00:33:48,436 --> 00:33:51,876 Speaker 1: situation goes from being more or less well refereed to 546 00:33:52,036 --> 00:33:55,316 Speaker 1: more or less not. Then one day you wake up 547 00:33:55,356 --> 00:33:59,156 Speaker 1: in a world that seems not just unfair, but actually 548 00:33:59,276 --> 00:34:03,196 Speaker 1: sort of rigged. That is, it's incapable of becoming fair 549 00:34:03,716 --> 00:34:06,756 Speaker 1: because the people who benefit from the unfairness have the 550 00:34:06,876 --> 00:34:12,916 Speaker 1: power to preserve it. Boom, do you do you flip 551 00:34:12,996 --> 00:34:14,996 Speaker 1: a switch in one hundred and ten screens go dark. 552 00:34:16,396 --> 00:34:19,076 Speaker 1: Um all the law small screens you got to do manually. 553 00:34:19,116 --> 00:34:22,276 Speaker 1: The big TVs, we got the remote. For most nights, 554 00:34:22,396 --> 00:34:24,836 Speaker 1: Joe Borgia stays at the replay center until almost two 555 00:34:24,876 --> 00:34:27,636 Speaker 1: in the morning, just him and a couple of refs, 556 00:34:28,076 --> 00:34:32,116 Speaker 1: staring at tiny slivers of basketball games, trying to impose 557 00:34:32,276 --> 00:34:36,916 Speaker 1: justice on powerful people who don't want it. I am nuts. 558 00:34:36,956 --> 00:34:41,676 Speaker 1: That's another story. Got admit you do. Now you have 559 00:34:41,796 --> 00:34:47,676 Speaker 1: to be partially one hundred percent negative business. That's why 560 00:34:47,756 --> 00:34:49,236 Speaker 1: my son doesn't want to write that. I don't like 561 00:34:49,356 --> 00:34:52,516 Speaker 1: people yelling at me. One day, a young Borgia naturally 562 00:34:52,596 --> 00:34:57,756 Speaker 1: becomes a referee, the next he doesn't. One day, most 563 00:34:57,796 --> 00:35:00,356 Speaker 1: people think the refs are more or less fair, or 564 00:35:00,356 --> 00:35:02,196 Speaker 1: at any rate, they don't spend a lot of time 565 00:35:02,276 --> 00:35:05,356 Speaker 1: blaming them for all their problems. The next day they 566 00:35:05,476 --> 00:35:10,116 Speaker 1: wake up to radical inequality. The people on top, the elites, 567 00:35:10,516 --> 00:35:13,876 Speaker 1: I think they're special. They behave as people do when 568 00:35:13,916 --> 00:35:17,596 Speaker 1: they think they're special. Young people emulate them without even 569 00:35:17,676 --> 00:35:20,716 Speaker 1: thinking about it. They just assume that's how you act 570 00:35:20,836 --> 00:35:24,516 Speaker 1: if you're a star or want to be. My first 571 00:35:24,596 --> 00:35:27,796 Speaker 1: question is why when you hit a three point shot, 572 00:35:27,876 --> 00:35:30,836 Speaker 1: which you often do. Why in the past have you 573 00:35:30,996 --> 00:35:34,476 Speaker 1: pounded your chest and pointed to the sky? I did 574 00:35:34,516 --> 00:35:36,876 Speaker 1: it because of people on the MBA and the IMBA 575 00:35:37,036 --> 00:35:39,516 Speaker 1: did it? What do you think they're doing? Like? What 576 00:35:39,596 --> 00:35:43,156 Speaker 1: does it mean? I don't know? Just like I'm cool. 577 00:35:44,076 --> 00:35:47,716 Speaker 1: Do you believe in God? No? I knew it would it? 578 00:35:47,836 --> 00:35:49,436 Speaker 1: I mean now I know what it meant, but no, 579 00:35:49,556 --> 00:35:53,516 Speaker 1: I don't. So what does it mean? Basically, it's like, 580 00:35:53,676 --> 00:35:56,836 Speaker 1: thank you God for hitting a three point shot? Do 581 00:35:56,916 --> 00:35:59,996 Speaker 1: you do you think God was responsible when Clay Thompson 582 00:36:00,076 --> 00:36:03,636 Speaker 1: hit a three point shot? To be honest, if God 583 00:36:03,836 --> 00:36:07,276 Speaker 1: was watching over everybody whenever they hit a three point shot, 584 00:36:09,116 --> 00:36:11,876 Speaker 1: I don't think that he would be able to like 585 00:36:12,796 --> 00:36:16,556 Speaker 1: actually make them make the shot. So do you have 586 00:36:16,676 --> 00:36:18,516 Speaker 1: anything you'd like to say to the referees of the 587 00:36:18,596 --> 00:36:22,436 Speaker 1: world before we turn this recording off? Don't pick sides 588 00:36:22,596 --> 00:36:34,116 Speaker 1: unless it's my side. Thank you. I'm Michael Lewis. Thanks 589 00:36:34,196 --> 00:36:37,436 Speaker 1: for listening to Against the Rules. It's our first episode. 590 00:36:37,996 --> 00:36:40,916 Speaker 1: We've got a lot more to come. Against the Rules 591 00:36:40,996 --> 00:36:44,076 Speaker 1: is brought to you by Pushkin Industries. The show's produced 592 00:36:44,156 --> 00:36:47,836 Speaker 1: by Audrey Dilling and Catherine Garedo, with research assistance from 593 00:36:47,916 --> 00:36:52,676 Speaker 1: Zoe Oliver Gray. Our editor is Julia Barton Mia Lobell 594 00:36:52,756 --> 00:36:56,796 Speaker 1: as our executive producer. Our theme was composed by Nick Brittell, 595 00:36:56,956 --> 00:37:01,836 Speaker 1: with additional scoring by Seth Samuel, mastering by Jason Gambrel. 596 00:37:03,076 --> 00:37:06,596 Speaker 1: Our show was recorded at Northgate Studios in Berkeley by 597 00:37:06,636 --> 00:37:17,236 Speaker 1: TOFA Ruth. Special thanks to our founders Jacob Weisberg and 598 00:37:17,436 --> 00:37:18,356 Speaker 1: Malcolm Gladwell