1 00:00:15,376 --> 00:00:15,816 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:18,956 --> 00:00:22,026 Speaker 2: Hey there, it's Michael Lewis here talking about my new book, Blockers. 3 00:00:22,906 --> 00:00:26,066 Speaker 2: Very briefly, it's about the collision between the Trump administration 4 00:00:26,106 --> 00:00:28,626 Speaker 2: and the civil service. And it's about the people who 5 00:00:28,646 --> 00:00:32,526 Speaker 2: got in the way on matters of principle with what 6 00:00:32,546 --> 00:00:36,616 Speaker 2: the Trump administration was trying to do. It's about mission-driven people, 7 00:00:37,136 --> 00:00:39,976 Speaker 2: people who are finding a life or found a life 8 00:00:39,996 --> 00:00:44,046 Speaker 2: for themselves that's much more than just about themselves. and 9 00:00:44,086 --> 00:00:46,386 Speaker 2: who I think in many ways are the best among us. 10 00:00:47,746 --> 00:00:50,166 Speaker 2: And it sort of asks the question, if these people 11 00:00:50,236 --> 00:00:52,756 Speaker 2: no longer belong in our government, what does it say 12 00:00:52,796 --> 00:00:55,516 Speaker 2: about us? So stay tuned until the end of this 13 00:00:55,576 --> 00:01:06,926 Speaker 2: episode for a preview. So we're walking across a parking 14 00:01:06,966 --> 00:01:11,086 Speaker 2: lot in Secaucus, New Jersey. We're surrounded by concrete, nothing green. 15 00:01:11,186 --> 00:01:12,826 Speaker 2: It took a lot to get me to this place. 16 00:01:13,446 --> 00:01:18,426 Speaker 2: They're chain hotel and motels in someone's idea of a mall. 17 00:01:19,426 --> 00:01:24,336 Speaker 3: But I have a hunch, a suspicion, about the crisis 18 00:01:24,396 --> 00:01:25,496 Speaker 3: that we find ourselves in. 19 00:01:25,776 --> 00:01:31,096 Speaker 2: It's filled with cheap chain restaurants, and we're surrounded on 20 00:01:31,196 --> 00:01:34,506 Speaker 2: all sides by freeways. It's like what people think about 21 00:01:35,386 --> 00:01:38,006 Speaker 2: when they tell jokes about New Jersey. I think you 22 00:01:38,046 --> 00:01:41,896 Speaker 2: can see what's going on right here in Secaucus. And 23 00:01:41,916 --> 00:01:50,336 Speaker 2: we're approaching a four-story, rectangular, otherwise nondescript concrete building. There's 24 00:01:50,356 --> 00:01:54,646 Speaker 2: a discreet little sign here that says NBA and shows 25 00:01:54,696 --> 00:01:56,306 Speaker 2: a logo with a basketball player. 26 00:01:57,466 --> 00:02:00,566 Speaker 3: Inside, a recent concession to the world we live in. 27 00:02:01,446 --> 00:02:05,586 Speaker 2: The Replay Center, a place where basketball referees review the 28 00:02:05,646 --> 00:02:09,426 Speaker 2: calls made by other basketball referees in real time. 29 00:02:10,426 --> 00:02:12,396 Speaker 3: To minimize referee error. 30 00:02:13,576 --> 00:02:16,856 Speaker 2: The replay center was built to persuade people that life 31 00:02:17,156 --> 00:02:17,756 Speaker 2: was fair. 32 00:02:27,866 --> 00:02:32,546 Speaker 3: I'm Michael Lewis, and this is Against the Rules. It's 33 00:02:32,586 --> 00:02:33,186 Speaker 3: a show about. 34 00:02:34,306 --> 00:02:35,766 Speaker 2: Well, give me just a minute to get to that. 35 00:02:35,786 --> 00:02:38,986 Speaker 3: This is peak beige. 36 00:02:41,276 --> 00:02:44,886 Speaker 2: It doesn't get beiger, does it? It's like, this is 37 00:02:44,926 --> 00:02:53,066 Speaker 2: a place where brown is an exciting color. And the 38 00:02:53,146 --> 00:02:56,976 Speaker 2: door is locked. All right, now I don't know what to. 39 00:02:59,276 --> 00:02:59,496 Speaker 3: Do. 40 00:02:59,516 --> 00:03:01,876 Speaker 4: Now what do we do? 41 00:03:02,616 --> 00:03:03,756 Speaker 5: All right. 42 00:03:07,676 --> 00:03:10,936 Speaker 2: For me, this story really begins not in Secaucus, but 43 00:03:10,976 --> 00:03:13,976 Speaker 2: in Berkeley, California, with my 11-year-old son. 44 00:03:14,776 --> 00:03:16,676 Speaker 3: His name's Walker, Walker Lewis. 45 00:03:17,516 --> 00:03:19,716 Speaker 2: He plays on a basketball team run, if you can 46 00:03:19,756 --> 00:03:24,176 Speaker 2: believe it, by a Japanese Buddhist temple. My son isn't 47 00:03:24,196 --> 00:03:26,296 Speaker 2: a Buddhist, though most of the time he could pass 48 00:03:26,336 --> 00:03:29,046 Speaker 2: for one. He has no conflict with his teachers or 49 00:03:29,336 --> 00:03:33,686 Speaker 2: his classmates or his Japanese Buddhist teammates. I wouldn't say 50 00:03:33,706 --> 00:03:38,756 Speaker 2: his mind is exactly pure, but usually it's calm The 51 00:03:38,796 --> 00:03:42,146 Speaker 2: exception is when he deals with refs, even Buddhist refs. 52 00:03:42,826 --> 00:03:44,806 Speaker 2: Anytime a ref blows the whistle on him, he throws 53 00:03:44,866 --> 00:03:47,626 Speaker 2: up his arms in astonishment. Then he jumps up and 54 00:03:47,706 --> 00:03:49,806 Speaker 2: down with his little fist balled up and his mouth 55 00:03:49,866 --> 00:03:53,646 Speaker 2: clenched tight, so everyone knows just how much injustice he's suffering. 56 00:03:55,256 --> 00:03:58,316 Speaker 2: Then he marches off with a scowl, and he doesn't 57 00:03:58,336 --> 00:04:01,356 Speaker 2: get over it. After a game this season, he gets 58 00:04:01,396 --> 00:04:03,956 Speaker 2: into the car and starts bitching and moaning all over again. 59 00:04:05,616 --> 00:04:07,276 Speaker 3: How did it make you feel when the ref made 60 00:04:07,306 --> 00:04:07,806 Speaker 3: those calls? 61 00:04:08,376 --> 00:04:09,656 Speaker 1: Very mad. 62 00:04:10,816 --> 00:04:11,836 Speaker 3: Do you feel any better now? 63 00:04:12,276 --> 00:04:12,516 Speaker 6: No. 64 00:04:13,956 --> 00:04:14,736 Speaker 3: Tell me how it feels. 65 00:04:17,096 --> 00:04:19,716 Speaker 7: Feels like someone keeps poking you in the back of 66 00:04:19,756 --> 00:04:21,616 Speaker 7: the shoulder and then saying. 67 00:04:22,396 --> 00:04:24,856 Speaker 1: Foul, foul, foul, foul. 68 00:04:25,496 --> 00:04:26,876 Speaker 3: Have you ever fouled out in your career? 69 00:04:27,416 --> 00:04:27,676 Speaker 1: No. 70 00:04:28,296 --> 00:04:30,036 Speaker 3: Did you know that you were at risk of fouling out? 71 00:04:30,836 --> 00:04:33,276 Speaker 7: Yes, but I also knew if I did, it would 72 00:04:33,296 --> 00:04:35,576 Speaker 7: be unfair because I knew that he was calling the 73 00:04:35,756 --> 00:04:40,436 Speaker 7: stupidest fouls. He'll look back and say. 74 00:04:42,236 --> 00:04:52,446 Speaker 5: Oh, I was being a huge asshole. 75 00:04:52,986 --> 00:04:55,446 Speaker 2: The thing is, I know why my son does what 76 00:04:55,486 --> 00:04:59,246 Speaker 2: he does. He thinks he's Klay Thompson, the all-star shooting 77 00:04:59,306 --> 00:05:01,026 Speaker 2: guard of the Golden State Warriors. 78 00:05:01,266 --> 00:05:03,006 Speaker 4: When Klay hits a three.... 79 00:05:05,956 --> 00:05:08,496 Speaker 3: Clay pounds his chest and points to the sky. 80 00:05:09,256 --> 00:05:11,546 Speaker 2: And so when Walker Lewis hits a three, he too 81 00:05:11,736 --> 00:05:14,046 Speaker 2: pounds his chest and points to the sky. 82 00:05:15,306 --> 00:05:17,506 Speaker 1: I think we had a technical foul as well. 83 00:05:19,446 --> 00:05:21,346 Speaker 3: Clay. Very unusual. 84 00:05:22,066 --> 00:05:25,526 Speaker 2: When Clay's called for a foul, he scowls and throws 85 00:05:25,586 --> 00:05:29,116 Speaker 2: up his arms in astonishment and sometimes even says something 86 00:05:29,156 --> 00:05:31,856 Speaker 2: to the ref that gets him slapped with a technical foul. 87 00:05:32,396 --> 00:05:35,236 Speaker 5: He only had one during the entire regular season. 88 00:05:36,346 --> 00:05:40,006 Speaker 2: And Klay's the famously most laid-back all-star in the entire 89 00:05:40,106 --> 00:05:41,946 Speaker 2: National Basketball Association. 90 00:05:42,296 --> 00:05:45,756 Speaker 8: Something has happened in the relationship between referees and players 91 00:05:45,796 --> 00:05:47,816 Speaker 8: over the last, I guess, year or two. 92 00:05:48,056 --> 00:05:50,876 Speaker 2: That's Ramona Shelburne. She's covered the NBA for the last 93 00:05:50,936 --> 00:05:52,256 Speaker 2: decade for ESPN. 94 00:05:52,726 --> 00:05:55,066 Speaker 8: It's been, quite frankly, ugly this year. 95 00:05:56,106 --> 00:05:59,946 Speaker 2: One of the Warriors head-butted a ref. Another chucked his 96 00:06:00,006 --> 00:06:02,666 Speaker 2: disgusting mouthguard off a ref's chest. 97 00:06:03,766 --> 00:06:07,626 Speaker 1: Draymond's got to be careful. He already has a technical. 98 00:06:07,666 --> 00:06:09,266 Speaker 4: And Curry has been thrown out of the game. 99 00:06:09,926 --> 00:06:12,006 Speaker 8: And some of the stuff I've seen, I mean, when 100 00:06:12,306 --> 00:06:16,396 Speaker 8: Draymond Green is getting fined for calling Lauren a hold cap, 101 00:06:16,816 --> 00:06:17,956 Speaker 8: can we cuss on your podcast? 102 00:06:18,536 --> 00:06:19,776 Speaker 3: I think we already have. 103 00:06:20,056 --> 00:06:23,516 Speaker 8: You know, a fucking bitch? Like, when he is saying 104 00:06:23,536 --> 00:06:25,966 Speaker 8: that to a female referee and getting fined and suspended 105 00:06:25,986 --> 00:06:30,466 Speaker 8: for that? Man, that's next level. And I haven't seen 106 00:06:30,486 --> 00:06:34,386 Speaker 8: that before this season. It's the stars now who are 107 00:06:34,766 --> 00:06:39,296 Speaker 8: really pushing the issue, right? It's Kevin Durant getting thrown 108 00:06:39,316 --> 00:06:42,216 Speaker 8: out of games. It's Steph Curry getting thrown out. 109 00:06:47,666 --> 00:06:51,106 Speaker 2: In a single season, bad behavior got various Golden State 110 00:06:51,146 --> 00:06:55,686 Speaker 2: Warriors tossed out of 10 different basketball games. Kevin Durant, 111 00:06:55,746 --> 00:06:59,016 Speaker 2: their best player, tied a league record by getting tossed 112 00:06:59,056 --> 00:07:02,316 Speaker 2: from five games all by himself. The men who coach 113 00:07:02,376 --> 00:07:06,256 Speaker 2: the Stars aren't much better. Even Steve Kerr, the Warriors' 114 00:07:06,376 --> 00:07:08,716 Speaker 2: famously decent, civic-minded coach. 115 00:07:09,036 --> 00:07:11,286 Speaker 9: I can snap. I can completely lose it. 116 00:07:11,466 --> 00:07:14,966 Speaker 2: If you back away from the Golden State Warriors, I mean, 117 00:07:15,006 --> 00:07:18,426 Speaker 2: they're exemplars of the way people should behave. Especially your Stars, 118 00:07:18,686 --> 00:07:21,826 Speaker 2: they're like impeccably behaved people. I'm so pleased to have 119 00:07:21,886 --> 00:07:26,746 Speaker 2: my son emulating... your players the only time they have 120 00:07:26,886 --> 00:07:30,936 Speaker 2: problems really is with referees yeah i can't imagine you 121 00:07:31,036 --> 00:07:35,176 Speaker 2: in your life have another relationship like you have with referees. 122 00:07:35,116 --> 00:07:38,536 Speaker 9: No you're right you're right i would never say the 123 00:07:38,596 --> 00:07:42,386 Speaker 9: things that i do to referees to a person in 124 00:07:42,426 --> 00:07:44,686 Speaker 9: normal life it happens two or three times a year 125 00:07:44,706 --> 00:07:47,926 Speaker 9: you know i've been caught on camera you know mf'ing 126 00:07:47,946 --> 00:07:50,466 Speaker 9: a ref and And, you know, my daughter will send 127 00:07:50,486 --> 00:07:51,806 Speaker 9: me a text like, Dad, what are you doing? 128 00:07:51,826 --> 00:07:53,786 Speaker 1: It's all over Twitter. I can read your lips. This 129 00:07:53,826 --> 00:07:54,386 Speaker 1: is embarrassing. 130 00:07:54,626 --> 00:07:55,476 Speaker 10: And I'm embarrassed. 131 00:07:56,096 --> 00:07:58,236 Speaker 9: So why is that? You know, it's a sense of 132 00:07:59,256 --> 00:08:01,836 Speaker 9: right or wrong. You know, I feel like there's like 133 00:08:01,856 --> 00:08:06,116 Speaker 9: this personal offense, like something unfair is happening. 134 00:08:08,136 --> 00:08:11,246 Speaker 2: Which brings me to my hunch. It has to do 135 00:08:11,286 --> 00:08:16,366 Speaker 2: with referees and not just basketball referees. The people everywhere 136 00:08:16,466 --> 00:08:19,956 Speaker 2: charged not just with enforcing rules, but with preserving a 137 00:08:19,996 --> 00:08:24,486 Speaker 2: sense of fairness. On Wall Street, in the news, in 138 00:08:24,556 --> 00:08:28,106 Speaker 2: courts of law, in the many little disputes that pockmark 139 00:08:28,226 --> 00:08:31,906 Speaker 2: everyday life. There are many different kinds of refs, and 140 00:08:32,006 --> 00:08:35,206 Speaker 2: most of them are under some kind of attack. So 141 00:08:35,246 --> 00:08:37,796 Speaker 2: maybe it's not that surprising that Americans one day woke 142 00:08:37,936 --> 00:08:41,256 Speaker 2: up and thrilled to the message that life was unfair. 143 00:08:42,236 --> 00:08:45,776 Speaker 4: You know, the system, folks, is rigged. It's a rigged system. 144 00:08:45,796 --> 00:08:47,246 Speaker 5: A rigged economy. 145 00:08:47,326 --> 00:08:50,486 Speaker 4: The banking system is rigged. A rigged system. There's a 146 00:08:50,526 --> 00:08:53,206 Speaker 4: lot of things that are rigged in this world of ours. 147 00:08:53,326 --> 00:08:57,346 Speaker 11: Not the fairness that we grew up believing that America 148 00:08:57,546 --> 00:08:58,076 Speaker 11: was about. 149 00:08:58,736 --> 00:09:00,356 Speaker 3: Which brings me to what this show is about. 150 00:09:03,956 --> 00:09:07,476 Speaker 2: The people whose job it is to maximize fairness, not 151 00:09:07,496 --> 00:09:11,186 Speaker 2: just in sports, but most everywhere. What's happening to them 152 00:09:12,106 --> 00:09:21,136 Speaker 2: tells us a lot about what's happening to us. You 153 00:09:21,186 --> 00:09:24,126 Speaker 2: have to listen closely, but you can hear that same 154 00:09:24,246 --> 00:09:26,186 Speaker 2: chant in a lot of American life. 155 00:09:27,126 --> 00:09:52,856 Speaker 3: Ref, you suck. Here we go. 156 00:09:53,796 --> 00:09:57,956 Speaker 2: Back at the NBA's offices in Secaucus, New Jersey. Someone 157 00:09:57,996 --> 00:10:00,676 Speaker 2: eventually came and unlocked the door. And then they led 158 00:10:00,696 --> 00:10:02,366 Speaker 2: me down a hall filled with a lot of old 159 00:10:02,416 --> 00:10:06,966 Speaker 2: basketball stuff. Jerseys and bobbleheads and basketballs and posters of 160 00:10:07,026 --> 00:10:07,666 Speaker 2: Michael Jordan. 161 00:10:08,506 --> 00:10:09,086 Speaker 3: The replay section. 162 00:10:09,426 --> 00:10:13,886 Speaker 2: Was the ultimate man cave. 163 00:10:14,216 --> 00:10:17,336 Speaker 3: It's also the latest weapon in the battle for fairness. 164 00:10:17,356 --> 00:10:20,496 Speaker 2: So this place just on first. 165 00:10:20,316 --> 00:10:23,696 Speaker 3: View is amazing. It's wall-to-wall screens, 110 of them. 166 00:10:25,306 --> 00:10:27,506 Speaker 2: What's on them is whatever is captured by all the 167 00:10:27,546 --> 00:10:31,826 Speaker 2: cameras in 29 NBA arenas across the country. This isn't 168 00:10:31,866 --> 00:10:35,796 Speaker 2: the broadcast video with commercials and commentary. The screens here 169 00:10:35,836 --> 00:10:37,536 Speaker 2: don't even have the scores of the games on them 170 00:10:37,856 --> 00:10:40,276 Speaker 2: or the names of the teams playing, and they're muted. 171 00:10:41,756 --> 00:10:45,316 Speaker 2: What you hear is referees staring at basketball games. What 172 00:10:45,356 --> 00:10:48,736 Speaker 2: you see is nothing but angles on professional basketball courts. 173 00:10:50,416 --> 00:10:52,106 Speaker 1: Nobody's ever walked in here and walked out and said, 174 00:10:52,116 --> 00:10:52,796 Speaker 1: this place sucks. 175 00:10:54,216 --> 00:10:56,996 Speaker 2: And I'm not going to say it sucks either. That's 176 00:10:57,056 --> 00:10:59,756 Speaker 2: Joe Borgia, who designed the center back in 2014 and 177 00:11:00,436 --> 00:11:04,996 Speaker 2: now runs it. Before he volunteered for Secaucus duty, he 178 00:11:05,056 --> 00:11:09,276 Speaker 2: refereed NBA games. His father was an NBA ref before him. 179 00:11:10,116 --> 00:11:12,696 Speaker 2: With a break in the late 60s, Borgia has been 180 00:11:12,756 --> 00:11:15,296 Speaker 2: reffing professional basketball games since 1946. 181 00:11:15,296 --> 00:11:17,236 Speaker 3: If you went. 182 00:11:17,116 --> 00:11:19,396 Speaker 2: Back to your dad at the beginning of his career 183 00:11:19,586 --> 00:11:21,156 Speaker 2: and said, this is what it's going to look like, 184 00:11:21,446 --> 00:11:22,256 Speaker 2: what do you think he would have said? 185 00:11:23,006 --> 00:11:24,976 Speaker 1: If I told him we would have replay, he'd turn 186 00:11:25,006 --> 00:11:27,376 Speaker 1: over in his grave. Forget about a replay center. Is 187 00:11:27,396 --> 00:11:28,896 Speaker 1: that right? Oh, absolutely. 188 00:11:29,196 --> 00:11:31,516 Speaker 2: You see, the refs used to insist on their authority. 189 00:11:32,336 --> 00:11:34,416 Speaker 2: At any rate, everyone agreed that there was no better 190 00:11:34,456 --> 00:11:37,076 Speaker 2: way to ensure the fairness of the game than to 191 00:11:37,116 --> 00:11:40,446 Speaker 2: let the ref play God. The replay center is an 192 00:11:40,486 --> 00:11:43,866 Speaker 2: admission that the ref is not God, that he makes mistakes. 193 00:11:45,566 --> 00:11:48,586 Speaker 1: I think the mention of replay, none of us liked 194 00:11:48,646 --> 00:11:51,406 Speaker 1: it when we first heard it. It's a necessary evil. 195 00:11:52,506 --> 00:11:54,666 Speaker 1: It's necessary. You have to have it today. 196 00:11:55,386 --> 00:11:59,706 Speaker 2: Everything's taped now. Everyone pays more attention to the referee's mistakes. 197 00:12:00,586 --> 00:12:03,706 Speaker 2: So the NBA has to as well. Now, when a 198 00:12:03,766 --> 00:12:06,236 Speaker 2: ref thinks he might have screwed up some call or 199 00:12:06,276 --> 00:12:09,816 Speaker 2: didn't get a good look at the action, he twirls 200 00:12:09,856 --> 00:12:13,376 Speaker 2: his fingers in the air. That's the signal to the 201 00:12:13,416 --> 00:12:16,606 Speaker 2: ref in the replay center who goes to work, reviewing 202 00:12:16,636 --> 00:12:20,166 Speaker 2: the tape, looking for the best angle to figure out 203 00:12:20,186 --> 00:12:20,946 Speaker 2: what actually happened. 204 00:12:21,366 --> 00:12:23,026 Speaker 3: That's the thing, is everybody can see it now. 205 00:12:23,306 --> 00:12:23,646 Speaker 1: Exactly. 206 00:12:23,686 --> 00:12:26,006 Speaker 2: You can't have them be in a better position to 207 00:12:26,046 --> 00:12:27,326 Speaker 2: judge the game than the referees. 208 00:12:27,746 --> 00:12:28,226 Speaker 1: Absolutely. 209 00:12:28,946 --> 00:12:31,326 Speaker 2: The replay center is what allows refs on a basketball 210 00:12:31,366 --> 00:12:34,276 Speaker 2: court to change their calls. A lot of those calls 211 00:12:34,336 --> 00:12:38,216 Speaker 2: are subjective, like whether one player fouled another. The refs 212 00:12:38,256 --> 00:12:40,556 Speaker 2: on the court still make most of those calls themselves. 213 00:12:41,196 --> 00:12:43,296 Speaker 2: The exception is when the foul is flagrant. 214 00:12:44,516 --> 00:12:46,096 Speaker 1: Sure, Duke, we're going to give you two good angles, 215 00:12:46,916 --> 00:12:47,456 Speaker 1: all right? 216 00:12:48,056 --> 00:12:48,776 Speaker 11: That's the first one. 217 00:12:48,796 --> 00:12:49,916 Speaker 1: The other one's going to give you a better look. 218 00:12:50,126 --> 00:12:51,456 Speaker 3: There's blood on the screens. 219 00:12:52,676 --> 00:12:56,216 Speaker 2: Kevin Love's front tooth got knocked in. Love plays for 220 00:12:56,236 --> 00:12:59,176 Speaker 2: the Cleveland Cavaliers, and the question is, did the guy 221 00:12:59,196 --> 00:13:01,216 Speaker 2: who popped him in the mouth do it intentionally? 222 00:13:01,236 --> 00:13:03,776 Speaker 1: It's just a basketball play, and Kevin Love happens to 223 00:13:03,876 --> 00:13:06,156 Speaker 1: move in to where the guy's elbow was going up. 224 00:13:06,876 --> 00:13:08,836 Speaker 2: The refs need to decide if the violence was not 225 00:13:08,876 --> 00:13:13,316 Speaker 2: just excessive, but unsportsmanlike, which sounds archaic. 226 00:13:13,956 --> 00:13:15,996 Speaker 3: Because we sort of lost the concept. So the blood 227 00:13:16,036 --> 00:13:16,996 Speaker 3: doesn't sway the decision? 228 00:13:17,016 --> 00:13:18,476 Speaker 7: No, it doesn't. 229 00:13:18,986 --> 00:13:20,746 Speaker 1: Listen, there's a lot of contact, so a lot of 230 00:13:20,806 --> 00:13:23,186 Speaker 1: it's accidental. That was accidental. Possible flagger? 231 00:13:24,646 --> 00:13:27,496 Speaker 2: The players all stand around scratching themselves while the refs 232 00:13:27,536 --> 00:13:29,436 Speaker 2: put on headsets and talk to the replay center. 233 00:13:29,456 --> 00:13:32,536 Speaker 1: We're looking for the unnatural. Did he throw his elbow out? 234 00:13:32,956 --> 00:13:35,216 Speaker 3: So the foul was on Kevin Love. Correct. 235 00:13:36,216 --> 00:13:37,966 Speaker 1: I thought he was outside. He was moving. He was moving. 236 00:13:37,986 --> 00:13:39,646 Speaker 1: It was late. Come on, you've got to be quick 237 00:13:39,726 --> 00:13:40,026 Speaker 1: on these. 238 00:13:40,166 --> 00:13:41,966 Speaker 3: He's stuck on the blood coming out of his mouth. 239 00:13:41,986 --> 00:13:42,926 Speaker 1: Yeah. It's ugly. 240 00:13:43,686 --> 00:13:47,066 Speaker 2: The whole thing only takes 30 seconds. 30 seconds in 241 00:13:47,086 --> 00:13:50,346 Speaker 2: which players, fans, coaches get even more pissed off at 242 00:13:50,386 --> 00:13:53,466 Speaker 2: the refs for taking so long. The only thing stopping 243 00:13:53,506 --> 00:13:56,126 Speaker 2: the replay center from checking every decision is that it 244 00:13:56,166 --> 00:14:00,336 Speaker 2: slows the game down. Here in Secaucus, they're still trying 245 00:14:00,356 --> 00:14:02,676 Speaker 2: to figure out how they might talk to the refs 246 00:14:02,736 --> 00:14:04,896 Speaker 2: as they run up and down the court, because if 247 00:14:04,936 --> 00:14:06,776 Speaker 2: they could do that, they could just fix every call 248 00:14:06,816 --> 00:14:07,256 Speaker 2: on the fly. 249 00:14:08,356 --> 00:14:12,356 Speaker 1: Special forces, we found out, we actually used a chip 250 00:14:12,476 --> 00:14:15,796 Speaker 1: over the molar that worked off the vibration of the bone. 251 00:14:15,976 --> 00:14:19,076 Speaker 1: Believe it or not, we did. We got a handful 252 00:14:19,136 --> 00:14:22,636 Speaker 1: of G League referees molded, and we tested that. 253 00:14:22,676 --> 00:14:24,156 Speaker 3: To wear a chip over their molar. 254 00:14:24,616 --> 00:14:28,566 Speaker 1: But it wasn't good enough because they didn't know where 255 00:14:28,586 --> 00:14:30,686 Speaker 1: the voice was coming from. 256 00:14:32,066 --> 00:14:33,286 Speaker 3: It was just a voice in their heads? 257 00:14:33,686 --> 00:14:35,906 Speaker 1: They didn't know where it was. Was that a coach 258 00:14:35,966 --> 00:14:36,576 Speaker 1: talking to me? 259 00:14:36,606 --> 00:14:37,806 Speaker 3: This is actually insane. 260 00:14:38,296 --> 00:14:40,576 Speaker 2: The time and money now being spent to ensure the 261 00:14:40,636 --> 00:14:43,636 Speaker 2: fairness of what, after all, is just a basketball game. 262 00:14:44,436 --> 00:14:47,276 Speaker 2: A jillion miles of fiber optic cable connect this room 263 00:14:47,326 --> 00:14:50,086 Speaker 2: directly to the NBA arenas around the country, all for 264 00:14:50,206 --> 00:14:51,286 Speaker 2: two calls a game. 265 00:14:51,746 --> 00:14:54,706 Speaker 1: At two calls a game. Fifteen million dollars to build 266 00:14:54,746 --> 00:14:57,026 Speaker 1: this room to get two calls right a game. But 267 00:14:57,486 --> 00:14:59,596 Speaker 1: you got to do it. You got to do it. 268 00:15:01,786 --> 00:15:03,226 Speaker 3: Can I just pause here a moment? 269 00:15:04,156 --> 00:15:06,256 Speaker 2: Just to consider what the NBA has done in the 270 00:15:06,296 --> 00:15:10,296 Speaker 2: past few years to improve the calls. For example, they 271 00:15:10,316 --> 00:15:12,876 Speaker 2: brought in serious managers to hire and train the refs. 272 00:15:13,736 --> 00:15:17,066 Speaker 2: Joe Borgia calls his boss the General, because she's actually 273 00:15:17,106 --> 00:15:20,426 Speaker 2: a General and an Air Force pilot. Her name is 274 00:15:20,466 --> 00:15:24,706 Speaker 2: Michelle Johnson, and before she supervised NBA refs, she ran 275 00:15:24,766 --> 00:15:28,876 Speaker 2: the Air Force Academy. It sounds like overkill to use 276 00:15:28,916 --> 00:15:32,506 Speaker 2: a General to make sure basketball games are well-reffed. but 277 00:15:32,526 --> 00:15:36,746 Speaker 2: the NBA thought it needed overkill. Or at least Adam Silver, 278 00:15:36,816 --> 00:15:37,956 Speaker 2: the NBA commissioner, did. 279 00:15:38,336 --> 00:15:42,636 Speaker 11: If people don't believe that the league office is unbiased 280 00:15:42,736 --> 00:15:44,616 Speaker 11: and that the officials are unbiased, you're going to have 281 00:15:44,636 --> 00:15:47,216 Speaker 11: a problem regardless of the accuracy of the calls. 282 00:15:47,816 --> 00:15:51,266 Speaker 2: Silver took over in 2014 and also hired Joe Borgia 283 00:15:51,306 --> 00:15:54,726 Speaker 2: to create the replay center. Since then, the NBA commissioner 284 00:15:54,746 --> 00:15:57,546 Speaker 2: has taken a ridiculous amount of grief for trying to 285 00:15:57,606 --> 00:15:59,626 Speaker 2: improve justice in basketball. 286 00:15:59,986 --> 00:16:03,076 Speaker 11: There are a group of people who think that without 287 00:16:03,156 --> 00:16:05,256 Speaker 11: the sort of transparency that we see in this day 288 00:16:05,296 --> 00:16:09,486 Speaker 11: and age, that it enabled certain officials, and maybe with 289 00:16:09,526 --> 00:16:13,686 Speaker 11: a touch of frontier justice, to overall create more of 290 00:16:13,726 --> 00:16:16,586 Speaker 11: a fair environment. Even if that were true, and I'm 291 00:16:16,626 --> 00:16:19,356 Speaker 11: not sure it is, those days are over. And I 292 00:16:19,406 --> 00:16:22,056 Speaker 11: think it's whether it's in sports or other walks of 293 00:16:22,136 --> 00:16:26,356 Speaker 11: life that you cannot turn the clock back on transparency. 294 00:16:27,056 --> 00:16:29,676 Speaker 2: So here's what else Silver's done. He's broadened the pool 295 00:16:29,696 --> 00:16:32,436 Speaker 2: of people from which refs are selected. They used to 296 00:16:32,476 --> 00:16:35,936 Speaker 2: be mostly white men, mostly from the same background. At 297 00:16:36,036 --> 00:16:39,216 Speaker 2: one point 15 years ago, four NBA refs came from 298 00:16:39,236 --> 00:16:42,596 Speaker 2: the same high school. He's hired more black refs and 299 00:16:42,676 --> 00:16:47,626 Speaker 2: female refs. He's insisted that referees be physically fit so 300 00:16:47,646 --> 00:16:49,646 Speaker 2: they can get into position to see all the plays. 301 00:16:50,266 --> 00:16:52,386 Speaker 2: While everyone else in America is getting fatter, the refs 302 00:16:52,426 --> 00:16:56,326 Speaker 2: are getting buff. They're also now getting new feedback on 303 00:16:56,526 --> 00:17:00,266 Speaker 2: all their bad calls. Silver decided to publish the mistakes 304 00:17:00,306 --> 00:17:02,636 Speaker 2: made by every ref in the last two minutes of 305 00:17:02,716 --> 00:17:05,676 Speaker 2: every game so everyone could see them. He gives the 306 00:17:05,736 --> 00:17:10,496 Speaker 2: teams and the refs a private document listing every refereeing mistake. 307 00:17:11,436 --> 00:17:12,016 Speaker 3: All this new. 308 00:17:11,936 --> 00:17:14,056 Speaker 2: Data on refs means that we and they know all 309 00:17:14,096 --> 00:17:17,816 Speaker 2: sorts of strange things about their minds. For instance, we 310 00:17:17,856 --> 00:17:19,906 Speaker 2: now know that their calls have tended to favor whichever 311 00:17:19,926 --> 00:17:23,986 Speaker 2: team's losing. Their calls also favor the home team. Some 312 00:17:24,046 --> 00:17:26,886 Speaker 2: large part of home court advantage is just the refs. 313 00:17:27,636 --> 00:17:29,816 Speaker 2: The analytics department of the Houston Rockets has even done 314 00:17:29,856 --> 00:17:31,626 Speaker 2: a study that shows that the home team that gets 315 00:17:31,666 --> 00:17:33,766 Speaker 2: the best calls is the Utah Jazz. 316 00:17:34,426 --> 00:17:36,286 Speaker 3: Why Utah? Who knows? 317 00:17:37,026 --> 00:17:38,766 Speaker 2: But you can be sure that someone will figure that out. 318 00:17:38,786 --> 00:17:42,926 Speaker 2: There's now basically a small army of geeks analyzing all 319 00:17:42,946 --> 00:17:43,566 Speaker 2: this new data. 320 00:17:46,066 --> 00:17:49,326 Speaker 12: Look, I don't really like writing papers about sports. I 321 00:17:49,366 --> 00:17:50,606 Speaker 12: prefer to write them about the economy. 322 00:17:50,946 --> 00:17:54,376 Speaker 2: That's Justin Wolfers, a behavioral economist at the University of Michigan. 323 00:17:55,096 --> 00:17:57,376 Speaker 2: and the co-author of a paper about NBA refs. 324 00:17:57,676 --> 00:18:00,216 Speaker 12: But the thing is, this is a domain where the 325 00:18:00,336 --> 00:18:04,196 Speaker 12: NBA referees have tremendous incentives not to make the wrong call. 326 00:18:05,656 --> 00:18:08,856 Speaker 12: Every error they make is tracked. Those errors determine whether 327 00:18:08,886 --> 00:18:11,276 Speaker 12: they get more games. Those games determine how much they 328 00:18:11,316 --> 00:18:14,926 Speaker 12: get paid. This is arguably the most analyzed workforce in 329 00:18:14,946 --> 00:18:15,446 Speaker 12: the country. 330 00:18:15,846 --> 00:18:18,886 Speaker 2: Basketball referees are now picked apart in ways that not 331 00:18:18,946 --> 00:18:22,006 Speaker 2: long ago would have seemed preposterous, not just for the 332 00:18:22,066 --> 00:18:26,056 Speaker 2: fairness of their calls, but for their unconscious behavior. Wolfer's 333 00:18:26,076 --> 00:18:28,546 Speaker 2: took years of data from every NBA game, then he 334 00:18:28,566 --> 00:18:31,686 Speaker 2: set out to look for evidence of the ref's racial bias. 335 00:18:32,366 --> 00:18:35,786 Speaker 12: The question here isn't whether people are anti-black or anti-white, 336 00:18:36,206 --> 00:18:41,106 Speaker 12: but whether there's an in-group bias. So if a predominantly 337 00:18:41,176 --> 00:18:44,996 Speaker 12: black team is playing and the refereeing crew is predominantly white, 338 00:18:45,016 --> 00:18:48,536 Speaker 12: are there more fouls called against them than on nights 339 00:18:48,676 --> 00:18:52,176 Speaker 12: when the same team is playing with a predominantly black 340 00:18:52,236 --> 00:18:54,966 Speaker 12: refereeing crew? And it turns out the answer is yes. 341 00:18:55,556 --> 00:18:58,936 Speaker 2: Wolfers wrote his paper back in 2007, before this new 342 00:18:59,076 --> 00:19:00,756 Speaker 2: age of referee transparency. 343 00:19:01,536 --> 00:19:03,356 Speaker 12: Well, it was a bit of a lesson for me. 344 00:19:03,386 --> 00:19:05,666 Speaker 12: You can probably tell by my accent, Michael, I'm an Australian. 345 00:19:06,566 --> 00:19:08,286 Speaker 12: I thought it was an interesting piece of social science. 346 00:19:08,466 --> 00:19:10,966 Speaker 12: It turned out the New York Times put it on 347 00:19:10,986 --> 00:19:11,666 Speaker 12: the front page. 348 00:19:12,106 --> 00:19:13,706 Speaker 3: And the NBA wasn't happy. 349 00:19:14,666 --> 00:19:17,706 Speaker 2: The commissioner at the time attacked the study and embarrassed 350 00:19:17,726 --> 00:19:20,916 Speaker 2: the league by trying, and failing, to refute its findings. 351 00:19:21,346 --> 00:19:24,376 Speaker 3: This morning we'll hear from the NBA commissioner, David Stern. 352 00:19:24,766 --> 00:19:28,666 Speaker 4: Our referees are the most reviewed, most ranked, and most rated. 353 00:19:28,886 --> 00:19:31,646 Speaker 3: And that's why we take exception to what the Times 354 00:19:31,686 --> 00:19:32,106 Speaker 3: did here. 355 00:19:32,386 --> 00:19:35,646 Speaker 2: That's Stern on NPR in 2007. 356 00:19:35,646 --> 00:19:37,066 Speaker 3: The result of all this coverage? 357 00:19:37,686 --> 00:19:40,866 Speaker 2: Every single referee was made aware of his unconscious bias. 358 00:19:41,606 --> 00:19:44,476 Speaker 2: When the dust settled, Justin Wolfers was curious to know 359 00:19:44,526 --> 00:19:47,026 Speaker 2: if his paper had had any effect. He made another 360 00:19:47,066 --> 00:19:50,796 Speaker 2: study of referees after the controversy he'd created, and guess what? 361 00:19:51,656 --> 00:19:54,336 Speaker 12: The most recent study we did seems to suggest that 362 00:19:54,356 --> 00:19:56,116 Speaker 12: that form of racial bias has gone away. 363 00:19:56,136 --> 00:19:57,926 Speaker 3: He has no idea why. 364 00:19:57,946 --> 00:20:01,196 Speaker 2: Maybe simply making the refs aware of the problem was 365 00:20:01,236 --> 00:20:04,216 Speaker 2: enough to correct it. But in the end, this became 366 00:20:04,256 --> 00:20:08,586 Speaker 2: a case study, not in ref ineptitude, but ref reform. 367 00:20:09,646 --> 00:20:12,846 Speaker 2: NBA refs have achieved what police forces can only dream of, 368 00:20:13,486 --> 00:20:17,796 Speaker 2: race blindness. The refs have no choice but The world's 369 00:20:17,816 --> 00:20:22,216 Speaker 2: now too good at seeing their mistakes. Look, there's no 370 00:20:22,256 --> 00:20:24,936 Speaker 2: way any basketball referee is going to be perfect. But 371 00:20:24,956 --> 00:20:27,456 Speaker 2: there's also no way these refs are anything but more 372 00:20:27,616 --> 00:20:30,056 Speaker 2: accurate than they've ever been. I mean, even home court 373 00:20:30,076 --> 00:20:32,656 Speaker 2: advantage means less than it used to. And yet these 374 00:20:32,716 --> 00:20:34,556 Speaker 2: refs are treated as if they're trying to rig the games. 375 00:20:34,576 --> 00:20:39,656 Speaker 3: Referees stop! Referees stop! Referees stop! 376 00:20:39,676 --> 00:20:41,016 Speaker 5: Referees stop! 377 00:20:44,266 --> 00:20:46,906 Speaker 2: Does the sound of those 18,000 people screaming at you 378 00:20:47,166 --> 00:20:49,726 Speaker 2: or booing you, does it sound any different than it 379 00:20:49,746 --> 00:20:52,006 Speaker 2: sounded when you started in 1991? 380 00:20:52,006 --> 00:20:56,106 Speaker 13: Yeah, there's a little more anger involved. And, you know, 381 00:20:56,166 --> 00:20:58,866 Speaker 13: it used to be sort of the garden variety. 382 00:20:58,906 --> 00:20:59,586 Speaker 3: You're terrible. 383 00:20:59,606 --> 00:21:00,206 Speaker 13: You suck. 384 00:21:00,286 --> 00:21:01,646 Speaker 4: Any of those kinds of terms. 385 00:21:01,926 --> 00:21:06,026 Speaker 2: That's Monty McCutcheon, who recently quit reffing NBA games to 386 00:21:06,066 --> 00:21:08,486 Speaker 2: serve as a kind of life coach to the other 387 00:21:08,586 --> 00:21:11,526 Speaker 2: NBA refs to talk them through their problems. 388 00:21:11,826 --> 00:21:15,856 Speaker 10: Now, you know, People do their research. They, things are 389 00:21:15,896 --> 00:21:18,356 Speaker 10: out there on the internet. They know your record with the, 390 00:21:18,476 --> 00:21:21,386 Speaker 10: with their team. They, they've done all, there's all these 391 00:21:21,426 --> 00:21:22,586 Speaker 10: sites on all these. 392 00:21:22,406 --> 00:21:23,946 Speaker 3: Different, they know personal things about you. 393 00:21:24,226 --> 00:21:27,086 Speaker 13: Oh, sure. Of course, some death threats are made from 394 00:21:27,146 --> 00:21:29,826 Speaker 13: time to time in playoff series, and you'll get security 395 00:21:29,886 --> 00:21:32,486 Speaker 13: all the way to, to both the hotel and then 396 00:21:32,526 --> 00:21:33,326 Speaker 13: the hotel. 397 00:21:33,026 --> 00:21:34,496 Speaker 10: The next morning out to the airport. 398 00:21:34,506 --> 00:21:35,836 Speaker 3: That's security to the hotel. 399 00:21:36,136 --> 00:21:38,476 Speaker 13: Not every night, but when those threats are, are a 400 00:21:38,536 --> 00:21:40,696 Speaker 13: known factor, it has happened in my career. 401 00:21:41,426 --> 00:21:44,246 Speaker 10: Security to your car is mandatory every night. 402 00:21:44,466 --> 00:21:44,766 Speaker 11: Yep. 403 00:21:45,586 --> 00:21:49,166 Speaker 2: These days, refs need bodyguards to escape after the game. 404 00:21:49,806 --> 00:21:52,166 Speaker 2: Here are people who are mostly just trying to do 405 00:21:52,206 --> 00:21:56,006 Speaker 2: these extremely difficult jobs as well as they can. And 406 00:21:56,026 --> 00:21:58,656 Speaker 2: at some point, you feel this question rising up in you. 407 00:21:59,496 --> 00:22:01,136 Speaker 2: In me, it rose up while I was talking to 408 00:22:01,176 --> 00:22:04,716 Speaker 2: Ramona Shelburne, the ESPN reporter. Why would anybody want to 409 00:22:04,776 --> 00:22:05,316 Speaker 2: be a ref? 410 00:22:05,436 --> 00:22:10,316 Speaker 8: Seriously, I wonder that too, man. They're not allowed to 411 00:22:10,356 --> 00:22:12,886 Speaker 8: say anything. They're not allowed to explain themselves. They're not 412 00:22:12,926 --> 00:22:14,066 Speaker 8: allowed to defend themselves. 413 00:22:14,746 --> 00:22:18,626 Speaker 2: Look, obviously they get paid. They start at $ 150, 000 a year, 414 00:22:18,666 --> 00:22:21,026 Speaker 2: and if they're great at their job and work extra games, 415 00:22:21,066 --> 00:22:23,806 Speaker 2: they can make as much as $ 500, 000. But there are 416 00:22:23,826 --> 00:22:26,266 Speaker 2: lots of ways to get paid without spending half your 417 00:22:26,306 --> 00:22:29,156 Speaker 2: life in hotel rooms and the other half being insulted 418 00:22:29,216 --> 00:22:31,956 Speaker 2: by arenas filled with crazy people. Do you think the 419 00:22:31,996 --> 00:22:33,736 Speaker 2: refereeing has gotten worse or better? 420 00:22:33,756 --> 00:22:35,516 Speaker 8: I actually think it's gotten better. 421 00:22:35,796 --> 00:22:38,016 Speaker 3: Of course it's gotten better. How could it not have? 422 00:22:38,896 --> 00:22:41,036 Speaker 2: The mystery is why the stars and the coaches and 423 00:22:41,056 --> 00:22:43,016 Speaker 2: the fans act as if it's gotten worse. 424 00:22:43,036 --> 00:22:47,106 Speaker 3: I have a hunch about that, too, which you'll hear 425 00:22:47,146 --> 00:22:47,526 Speaker 3: in a minute. 426 00:22:57,006 --> 00:23:00,236 Speaker 1: Okay, so Sacramento's checking in right now. So they're at 427 00:23:00,236 --> 00:23:06,026 Speaker 1: 10 o'clock, so an hour before... The Clippers, Golden State 428 00:23:06,046 --> 00:23:10,346 Speaker 1: will check in, and the Clippers will check in about 9.30, roughly. 429 00:23:12,046 --> 00:23:15,166 Speaker 2: I'm back with Joe Borgia in the replay center. The 430 00:23:15,206 --> 00:23:19,086 Speaker 2: refs here sit dressed in black, staring at screens, waiting 431 00:23:19,126 --> 00:23:23,046 Speaker 2: for a signal from somewhere in America. The end of 432 00:23:23,126 --> 00:23:25,736 Speaker 2: games is when they get most involved, because that's when 433 00:23:25,806 --> 00:23:29,376 Speaker 2: fans and coaches and players are most likely to accuse 434 00:23:29,436 --> 00:23:32,736 Speaker 2: some ref of having made the mistake that changed the outcome. 435 00:23:33,586 --> 00:23:35,646 Speaker 2: Of course, a mistake at the beginning has just as 436 00:23:35,686 --> 00:23:37,506 Speaker 2: much effect on a game as a mistake at the end, 437 00:23:38,206 --> 00:23:41,356 Speaker 2: but the end is what people notice and get outraged about. 438 00:23:42,776 --> 00:23:44,616 Speaker 2: So the justice at the end of the game must 439 00:23:44,656 --> 00:23:46,856 Speaker 2: be more exact than it is at the beginning. 440 00:23:48,096 --> 00:23:50,436 Speaker 3: These replay center refs have video technicians with. 441 00:23:50,356 --> 00:23:53,916 Speaker 2: Them who can freeze a moment on screen, then zoom 442 00:23:53,996 --> 00:23:56,736 Speaker 2: out or zoom in so that the entire screen contains 443 00:23:56,776 --> 00:24:00,276 Speaker 2: only a player's fingertips or his toes. Here you just 444 00:24:00,336 --> 00:24:03,306 Speaker 2: scroll through tiny slivers of the game, not the game itself, 445 00:24:04,026 --> 00:24:06,136 Speaker 2: the slivers where injustices might occur. 446 00:24:06,156 --> 00:24:09,036 Speaker 1: I mean, goodness gracious, if you don't have slow motion 447 00:24:09,096 --> 00:24:11,616 Speaker 1: in here, a freeze frame, it's very difficult. 448 00:24:12,216 --> 00:24:14,156 Speaker 2: Of course, in slow motion, you can see things that 449 00:24:14,176 --> 00:24:19,266 Speaker 2: the naked eye misses. Magicians sometimes perform during halftimes of 450 00:24:19,286 --> 00:24:22,706 Speaker 2: the NBA games. When Joe Borges slows it down, he 451 00:24:22,726 --> 00:24:25,666 Speaker 2: can see how they do their tricks. It's kind of 452 00:24:25,706 --> 00:24:26,746 Speaker 2: the same thing with the players. 453 00:24:27,146 --> 00:24:29,336 Speaker 1: Exactly. I can go a 60th of a second at 454 00:24:29,396 --> 00:24:31,526 Speaker 1: a time. You're going to pick a lot of little 455 00:24:31,566 --> 00:24:31,836 Speaker 1: things up. 456 00:24:31,846 --> 00:24:33,666 Speaker 3: So what these players are getting good at is creating 457 00:24:33,746 --> 00:24:34,586 Speaker 3: optical illusions. 458 00:24:35,286 --> 00:24:35,966 Speaker 1: Of course. 459 00:24:36,006 --> 00:24:37,306 Speaker 3: The sort of things that a magician does. 460 00:24:37,346 --> 00:24:39,286 Speaker 1: Well, isn't flopping an optical illusion? 461 00:24:39,956 --> 00:24:42,616 Speaker 2: Flopping is what they call it when a player pretends 462 00:24:42,656 --> 00:24:45,656 Speaker 2: to have been knocked over by another player. Tricking the 463 00:24:45,696 --> 00:24:48,376 Speaker 2: refs into making bad calls is now considered a skill. 464 00:24:48,396 --> 00:24:51,416 Speaker 1: Okay, replay signal given, so you just hit it perfect. 465 00:24:51,676 --> 00:24:54,436 Speaker 2: A game ref in Houston twirls his fingers in the air. 466 00:24:54,616 --> 00:24:56,696 Speaker 2: Some players hit a three-point shot at the buzzer. 467 00:24:57,236 --> 00:24:57,756 Speaker 3: Or has he? 468 00:24:59,166 --> 00:25:01,366 Speaker 2: The Houston ref wants to know if the player's toe 469 00:25:01,406 --> 00:25:04,226 Speaker 2: was on the three-point line and if he got off 470 00:25:04,246 --> 00:25:05,426 Speaker 2: the shot before the buzzer. 471 00:25:06,546 --> 00:25:09,366 Speaker 3: It's just now that Joe says I can work the equipment. 472 00:25:09,766 --> 00:25:10,126 Speaker 3: Can I? 473 00:25:10,126 --> 00:25:16,636 Speaker 1: Just don't hit the red on air. 474 00:25:16,676 --> 00:25:18,276 Speaker 3: The truth is I'm not a big equipment guy. 475 00:25:19,016 --> 00:25:21,556 Speaker 2: My first step when something needs to be assembled or 476 00:25:21,656 --> 00:25:24,556 Speaker 2: operated is to call someone and say I'll pay whatever 477 00:25:24,596 --> 00:25:28,396 Speaker 2: it costs. I start twisting dials just to see what happens. 478 00:25:28,986 --> 00:25:31,246 Speaker 2: they appear to cause the picture to zoom in and out. 479 00:25:31,686 --> 00:25:35,026 Speaker 1: Watch the referee on the bottom of the screen. There's 480 00:25:35,066 --> 00:25:35,906 Speaker 1: your signal. 481 00:25:36,886 --> 00:25:38,446 Speaker 3: You've got to see that. You have to see the 482 00:25:38,486 --> 00:25:43,526 Speaker 3: referee doing that. Or someone may say something. There's a 483 00:25:43,666 --> 00:25:45,266 Speaker 3: lot of subjectivity in refereeing. 484 00:25:45,886 --> 00:25:47,846 Speaker 2: But a whole bunch of the questions that arise on 485 00:25:47,886 --> 00:25:50,146 Speaker 2: a basketball court have objective answers. 486 00:25:50,786 --> 00:25:53,206 Speaker 3: Like, who touched the ball last before it went out 487 00:25:53,226 --> 00:25:53,716 Speaker 3: of bounds? 488 00:25:53,806 --> 00:25:56,266 Speaker 2: Or, was there still time on the clock before the 489 00:25:56,306 --> 00:25:59,606 Speaker 2: shot left the player's hands? This is one of those. 490 00:26:00,386 --> 00:26:03,186 Speaker 2: Did the player's foot touch the three-point line when he 491 00:26:03,246 --> 00:26:06,726 Speaker 2: leapt for his shot? Did the ball leave his fingertips 492 00:26:06,826 --> 00:26:10,696 Speaker 2: before the buzzer sounded? One of the dials, or maybe 493 00:26:10,736 --> 00:26:13,296 Speaker 2: it's actually a joystick, lets me choose which angle of 494 00:26:13,336 --> 00:26:17,336 Speaker 2: the court I see. I need to find one still 495 00:26:17,436 --> 00:26:20,196 Speaker 2: frame with the shooter's foot in it and another with 496 00:26:20,256 --> 00:26:22,496 Speaker 2: a clock in it. Then I need to freeze the 497 00:26:22,536 --> 00:26:25,586 Speaker 2: picture in the 160th of a second that the ball 498 00:26:25,666 --> 00:26:30,276 Speaker 2: left the shooter's fingertips. Just then I realize, I have 499 00:26:30,376 --> 00:26:32,716 Speaker 2: no idea who the player is. I don't even know 500 00:26:32,736 --> 00:26:36,696 Speaker 2: which team he's on. All I know is he's in Houston. 501 00:26:37,676 --> 00:26:39,896 Speaker 3: Can I get it here? Not quite. 502 00:26:39,916 --> 00:26:40,816 Speaker 1: These are all the same. 503 00:26:40,876 --> 00:26:41,216 Speaker 3: Oh, they are? 504 00:26:41,236 --> 00:26:44,496 Speaker 1: Because it's pretty much. You didn't even know. 505 00:26:44,556 --> 00:26:45,876 Speaker 3: Is Houston still waiting on me? 506 00:26:47,616 --> 00:26:49,756 Speaker 2: I think it occurred to me at that moment that 507 00:26:49,776 --> 00:26:51,996 Speaker 2: they were possibly actually using what I was doing. 508 00:26:52,516 --> 00:26:54,326 Speaker 3: And that was a little bit of anxiety. 509 00:26:54,626 --> 00:26:57,446 Speaker 2: The coaches get to stop the game with pointless timeouts. 510 00:26:58,166 --> 00:27:00,666 Speaker 2: The advertisers get to stop the game to sell beer. 511 00:27:01,426 --> 00:27:03,466 Speaker 2: But when a ref stops a game to make it 512 00:27:03,506 --> 00:27:07,716 Speaker 2: more fair, the crowd boos, and the announcers launch attacks 513 00:27:07,796 --> 00:27:08,016 Speaker 2: on them. 514 00:27:09,096 --> 00:27:11,116 Speaker 3: It's not enough to be right. You've got to be fast. 515 00:27:12,276 --> 00:27:15,116 Speaker 2: Borja tracks the average response time of the replay refs. 516 00:27:15,236 --> 00:27:16,616 Speaker 3: It's between 20 and 30 seconds. 517 00:27:16,896 --> 00:27:18,966 Speaker 1: Okay, the replay center official confirmed successful three-point basket. You 518 00:27:21,166 --> 00:27:21,386 Speaker 1: got it. 519 00:27:23,186 --> 00:27:25,966 Speaker 2: The problem's dealt with, or I think it is, but 520 00:27:26,046 --> 00:27:29,546 Speaker 2: right away another one comes up. on a bunch of 521 00:27:29,586 --> 00:27:33,386 Speaker 2: screens showing one arena. All these people are jumping around 522 00:27:33,566 --> 00:27:37,226 Speaker 2: and hollering at refs. The ruckus appears to be confined 523 00:27:37,246 --> 00:27:39,566 Speaker 2: to Cleveland, but in here it feels like the entire 524 00:27:39,716 --> 00:27:40,756 Speaker 2: universe is disturbed. 525 00:27:41,636 --> 00:27:45,756 Speaker 3: It turns out LeBron James is upset. He's arguing. 526 00:27:45,876 --> 00:27:46,376 Speaker 1: There he goes. 527 00:27:46,396 --> 00:27:49,576 Speaker 3: LeBron James going from ref to ref. He seems to 528 00:27:49,636 --> 00:27:51,496 Speaker 3: know which refs to argue with. 529 00:27:51,516 --> 00:27:58,466 Speaker 1: They're talking about goaltending. So they're talking about it. I 530 00:27:58,486 --> 00:28:01,646 Speaker 1: think they might change. James and the other guy had 531 00:28:01,666 --> 00:28:02,466 Speaker 1: the best angle. 532 00:28:02,666 --> 00:28:06,176 Speaker 3: Do you think that LeBron James has any effect doing that? 533 00:28:08,736 --> 00:28:11,516 Speaker 2: The ref in Cleveland is not twirling his finger. There's 534 00:28:11,536 --> 00:28:14,336 Speaker 2: no signal to us to do anything in the replay center. 535 00:28:15,176 --> 00:28:20,186 Speaker 2: LeBron's drama, strictly speaking, is pointless. It's strange the way 536 00:28:20,246 --> 00:28:22,866 Speaker 2: these players argue. They must think that if they make 537 00:28:22,946 --> 00:28:25,626 Speaker 2: life unpleasant enough for the ref, he'll think twice before 538 00:28:25,646 --> 00:28:31,926 Speaker 2: the next call. It's then that it occurs to me, 539 00:28:32,846 --> 00:28:36,746 Speaker 2: just looking around the room at 110 TV screens, I've 540 00:28:36,786 --> 00:28:39,446 Speaker 2: had a hard time following the games, never mind the scores. 541 00:28:39,806 --> 00:28:42,566 Speaker 2: I sometimes don't even know which teams are playing. But 542 00:28:42,656 --> 00:28:45,056 Speaker 2: every time a player gets up into a referee's face, 543 00:28:45,656 --> 00:28:48,956 Speaker 2: I've recognized the player. And I actually don't know that 544 00:28:48,996 --> 00:28:51,536 Speaker 2: many NBA players, but I know all the ones who 545 00:28:51,556 --> 00:28:54,776 Speaker 2: pitch these hissy fits. Because the only players getting up 546 00:28:54,796 --> 00:28:57,386 Speaker 2: into the faces of the refs are the famous players, 547 00:28:58,026 --> 00:29:01,116 Speaker 2: or the coaches who protect them. Ramona Shelburne put her 548 00:29:01,156 --> 00:29:04,876 Speaker 2: finger on it. The more aggressive behavior towards refs isn't 549 00:29:04,956 --> 00:29:07,316 Speaker 2: coming from every player. It's coming from the stars. 550 00:29:24,506 --> 00:29:26,246 Speaker 6: So we just got really interested in a very simple 551 00:29:26,286 --> 00:29:30,846 Speaker 6: question of does this sense of being privileged make you 552 00:29:31,146 --> 00:29:33,436 Speaker 6: disobey the rules of the road or the laws of 553 00:29:33,476 --> 00:29:33,896 Speaker 6: the land. 554 00:29:34,216 --> 00:29:37,436 Speaker 2: That's Dacher Keltner. He's a professor of psychology at Cal 555 00:29:37,456 --> 00:29:41,276 Speaker 2: Berkeley and someone who wonders about the effect inequality has 556 00:29:41,376 --> 00:29:42,256 Speaker 2: on people's behavior. 557 00:29:42,966 --> 00:29:45,426 Speaker 6: An experience I had in Berkeley where I was riding 558 00:29:45,446 --> 00:29:48,286 Speaker 6: my bike up this hill and I got to the 559 00:29:48,326 --> 00:29:51,436 Speaker 6: four-way stops and I was halfway through this four-way stop sign. 560 00:29:56,476 --> 00:29:58,916 Speaker 6: And this guy in a black Mercedes rolls through the 561 00:29:58,956 --> 00:30:02,456 Speaker 6: stop sign, is halfway there, is a foot away from me, 562 00:30:02,496 --> 00:30:04,216 Speaker 6: about to take me out, and he's on his cell phone. 563 00:30:05,036 --> 00:30:06,836 Speaker 6: And I looked at him, I was ready to take 564 00:30:06,876 --> 00:30:09,636 Speaker 6: him on, like, all right, buddy, this is it. And 565 00:30:09,676 --> 00:30:12,376 Speaker 6: what was most telling about this whole experience was he 566 00:30:12,436 --> 00:30:14,836 Speaker 6: looked at me as if I was in the wrong 567 00:30:14,876 --> 00:30:17,356 Speaker 6: and I should get out of his way, even though 568 00:30:17,376 --> 00:30:18,876 Speaker 6: I had made it through the stop sign first. 569 00:30:20,716 --> 00:30:23,516 Speaker 2: So Dacker and a colleague dreamed up this weird experiment. 570 00:30:23,896 --> 00:30:27,576 Speaker 2: They hid two Berkeley undergraduates in the bushes near four-way 571 00:30:27,596 --> 00:30:31,786 Speaker 2: stop signs. The undergrads noted the makes of all cars 572 00:30:31,846 --> 00:30:35,386 Speaker 2: coming through the intersection, assigned them numbers, one to five, 573 00:30:35,746 --> 00:30:39,246 Speaker 2: according to their market value. A new Mercedes was a five, 574 00:30:39,606 --> 00:30:42,526 Speaker 2: a Honda was a three, and an old Pacer was 575 00:30:42,566 --> 00:30:42,916 Speaker 2: a one. 576 00:30:43,136 --> 00:30:46,836 Speaker 6: We positioned a Berkeley undergrad by a pedestrian zone, and 577 00:30:46,876 --> 00:30:48,636 Speaker 6: we make sure they look like they want to cross 578 00:30:48,656 --> 00:30:50,836 Speaker 6: the street, right? And they're sort of leaning into the 579 00:30:50,916 --> 00:30:54,536 Speaker 6: pedestrian zone where it's required by California law to stop. 580 00:30:55,396 --> 00:30:58,736 Speaker 2: It's a game of one-on-one at a California crosswalk. One 581 00:30:58,816 --> 00:31:00,576 Speaker 2: car versus one pedestrian. 582 00:31:01,016 --> 00:31:07,366 Speaker 6: And zero percent of the drivers of poor cars... zoom 583 00:31:07,386 --> 00:31:12,366 Speaker 6: through the pedestrian zone, they all stop. And 40-some-odd percent, 45% 584 00:31:12,366 --> 00:31:15,746 Speaker 6: of the drivers of the fives, the rich cars, blaze 585 00:31:15,766 --> 00:31:18,326 Speaker 6: through the pedestrian zone and just say, the rules don't 586 00:31:18,366 --> 00:31:18,946 Speaker 6: apply to me. 587 00:31:19,806 --> 00:31:27,066 Speaker 3: I'll carry on. This one study led to a bunch 588 00:31:27,086 --> 00:31:30,486 Speaker 3: of others that showed basically the same pattern of human behavior. 589 00:31:30,686 --> 00:31:34,806 Speaker 6: Another experiment, we bring people to the lab, and as 590 00:31:34,826 --> 00:31:39,046 Speaker 6: they're leaving... there's this big bowl of candy. And it 591 00:31:39,366 --> 00:31:41,586 Speaker 6: says on it, for the children of the Institute of 592 00:31:41,626 --> 00:31:42,306 Speaker 6: Human Development. 593 00:31:43,046 --> 00:31:43,446 Speaker 1: On the bowl. 594 00:31:44,166 --> 00:31:45,286 Speaker 6: And we say, oh, you're going to take a candy 595 00:31:45,306 --> 00:31:48,506 Speaker 6: or two as you're leaving. And we count up how 596 00:31:48,546 --> 00:31:51,936 Speaker 6: many candies they take after they leave the experiment. Privileged 597 00:31:51,976 --> 00:31:55,016 Speaker 6: people grab a big handful of candy compared to poorer people. 598 00:31:55,376 --> 00:31:57,616 Speaker 2: So let's turn the conversation to something much more important, 599 00:31:57,636 --> 00:31:58,396 Speaker 2: which is basketball. 600 00:31:58,996 --> 00:32:00,036 Speaker 1: Most important of all. 601 00:32:00,156 --> 00:32:03,436 Speaker 2: In the last five or six years, the NBA has 602 00:32:03,496 --> 00:32:07,796 Speaker 2: embarked on essentially everything A dramatic reform of refereeing. At 603 00:32:07,836 --> 00:32:12,626 Speaker 2: the same time, the friction between the players and some 604 00:32:12,646 --> 00:32:14,626 Speaker 2: of the owners and some of the coaches and the 605 00:32:14,686 --> 00:32:17,206 Speaker 2: refs is going through the roof. The source of the 606 00:32:17,346 --> 00:32:20,526 Speaker 2: outrage is the star players. The people getting thrown out 607 00:32:20,566 --> 00:32:23,386 Speaker 2: of games are Kevin Durant and Steph Curry and James Harden. 608 00:32:23,706 --> 00:32:26,086 Speaker 2: And the Warriors, the most famous team ever to walk 609 00:32:26,156 --> 00:32:28,916 Speaker 2: on the court, are the chief culprits. Exhibit A in 610 00:32:28,956 --> 00:32:32,196 Speaker 2: bad behavior towards refs. So you've got this weird combination. 611 00:32:32,236 --> 00:32:33,336 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's fascinating. 612 00:32:34,156 --> 00:32:36,496 Speaker 6: I still remember being a Lakers fan, you know, the 613 00:32:36,536 --> 00:32:40,136 Speaker 6: great Magic Johnson teams, and watching Larry Bird do his 614 00:32:40,216 --> 00:32:41,236 Speaker 6: nine-step layup. 615 00:32:41,316 --> 00:32:42,536 Speaker 4: And I'm like, come on, make the call. 616 00:32:43,616 --> 00:32:47,186 Speaker 2: Larry Bird was like LeBron, the new Mercedes of his day. 617 00:32:48,066 --> 00:32:50,626 Speaker 2: He played with certain assumptions about the rules and how 618 00:32:50,666 --> 00:32:53,926 Speaker 2: they applied to him. For most players of his era, 619 00:32:54,186 --> 00:32:57,706 Speaker 2: two steps counted as traveling. The inequality on a basketball 620 00:32:57,746 --> 00:33:00,326 Speaker 2: court is profound. And it's more profound than it was 621 00:33:00,366 --> 00:33:03,796 Speaker 2: in Larry Bird's era. Larry Bird was a millionaire. LeBron 622 00:33:03,816 --> 00:33:04,896 Speaker 2: James might be a billionaire. 623 00:33:04,936 --> 00:33:05,116 Speaker 1: Yeah. 624 00:33:05,516 --> 00:33:08,376 Speaker 2: And these guys are global franchises. 625 00:33:08,436 --> 00:33:08,616 Speaker 4: Yeah. 626 00:33:08,876 --> 00:33:11,536 Speaker 2: So you got, in a funny way, a microcosm. It's 627 00:33:11,576 --> 00:33:13,966 Speaker 2: an odd microcosm on a basketball court. What's going on 628 00:33:13,986 --> 00:33:19,206 Speaker 2: in the larger society? The NBA is set out to 629 00:33:19,266 --> 00:33:24,186 Speaker 2: ref the game more objectively, more accurately, more fairly. This 630 00:33:24,226 --> 00:33:27,646 Speaker 2: has enraged the stars and their fans and coaches. You 631 00:33:27,676 --> 00:33:31,256 Speaker 2: want to know why? The more objectivity there is, the 632 00:33:31,276 --> 00:33:35,566 Speaker 2: less power they have. Objective refs eliminate some of their privilege. 633 00:33:36,966 --> 00:33:40,546 Speaker 2: The stars can't get the calls anymore just because they're stars. 634 00:33:41,506 --> 00:33:42,546 Speaker 3: Or anyway, not as often. 635 00:33:43,806 --> 00:33:47,216 Speaker 2: LeBron James and Kevin Durant and Steph Curry and Klay Thompson, 636 00:33:48,076 --> 00:33:50,996 Speaker 2: they'll all survive better refs because they're actually just better 637 00:33:51,016 --> 00:33:55,116 Speaker 2: than everyone else. They don't need unfairness to win. But 638 00:33:55,156 --> 00:33:57,946 Speaker 2: what happens where there are no replay centers? Where there's 639 00:33:57,986 --> 00:34:02,026 Speaker 2: no hope for pure objectivity or technology to improve calls? 640 00:34:03,146 --> 00:34:05,946 Speaker 2: where the refs can no longer defend themselves from the stars. 641 00:34:07,866 --> 00:34:12,586 Speaker 2: Welcome to the reason for our show. I think American 642 00:34:12,646 --> 00:34:14,846 Speaker 2: life just now has at least one thing in common 643 00:34:14,896 --> 00:34:18,916 Speaker 2: with basketball. The authority of its referees is under attack. 644 00:34:19,856 --> 00:34:22,016 Speaker 2: And when you have a weak referee, you have a 645 00:34:22,056 --> 00:34:25,236 Speaker 2: big problem. Because a weak referee is a referee who 646 00:34:25,256 --> 00:34:30,536 Speaker 2: can be bought, or intimidated, or just simply ignored. a 647 00:34:30,576 --> 00:34:34,316 Speaker 2: situation goes from being more or less well-refereed to more 648 00:34:34,356 --> 00:34:37,486 Speaker 2: or less not. Then one day you wake up in 649 00:34:37,526 --> 00:34:41,606 Speaker 2: a world that seems not just unfair, but actually sort 650 00:34:41,626 --> 00:34:46,126 Speaker 2: of rigged. That is, it's incapable of becoming fair, because 651 00:34:46,166 --> 00:34:49,326 Speaker 2: the people who benefit from the unfairness have the power 652 00:34:49,386 --> 00:34:50,016 Speaker 2: to preserve it. 653 00:34:51,326 --> 00:34:51,686 Speaker 1: Boom. 654 00:34:51,706 --> 00:34:56,046 Speaker 2: Do you flip a switch and 110 screens go dark? 655 00:34:59,596 --> 00:35:06,466 Speaker 2: Most nights, Joe Borgia stays at the replay center until 656 00:35:06,506 --> 00:35:09,306 Speaker 2: almost 2 in the morning. Just him and a couple 657 00:35:09,326 --> 00:35:13,666 Speaker 2: of refs staring at tiny slivers of basketball games, trying 658 00:35:13,686 --> 00:35:17,186 Speaker 2: to impose justice on powerful people who don't want it. 659 00:35:17,196 --> 00:35:26,446 Speaker 1: You do. Now, you have to be partially off. It's 100% 660 00:35:26,446 --> 00:35:28,246 Speaker 1: negative business. 661 00:35:28,246 --> 00:35:29,306 Speaker 3: 100% negative business. 662 00:35:29,346 --> 00:35:31,226 Speaker 1: That's why my son doesn't want to ref. I don't 663 00:35:31,266 --> 00:35:32,266 Speaker 1: like people yelling at me. 664 00:35:32,786 --> 00:35:36,936 Speaker 3: One day, a young Borja naturally becomes a referee. The next, 665 00:35:37,276 --> 00:35:37,646 Speaker 3: he doesn't. 666 00:35:39,066 --> 00:35:41,276 Speaker 2: One day, most people think the refs are more or 667 00:35:41,316 --> 00:35:43,796 Speaker 2: less fair. Or at any rate, they don't spend a 668 00:35:43,836 --> 00:35:46,596 Speaker 2: lot of time blaming them for all their problems. The 669 00:35:46,636 --> 00:35:50,696 Speaker 2: next day, they wake up to radical inequality. The people 670 00:35:50,776 --> 00:35:55,046 Speaker 2: on top, the elites... think they're special. They behave as 671 00:35:55,086 --> 00:35:58,666 Speaker 2: people do when they think they're special. Young people emulate 672 00:35:58,706 --> 00:36:02,276 Speaker 2: them without even thinking about it. They just assume that's 673 00:36:02,296 --> 00:36:06,336 Speaker 2: how you act if you're a star or wannabe. My 674 00:36:06,396 --> 00:36:09,936 Speaker 2: first question is, why when you hit a three-point shot, 675 00:36:09,976 --> 00:36:13,046 Speaker 2: which you often do, why in the past have you 676 00:36:13,126 --> 00:36:15,086 Speaker 2: pounded your chest and pointed to the sky? 677 00:36:16,386 --> 00:36:18,546 Speaker 7: I did it because the people on the NBA and 678 00:36:18,566 --> 00:36:19,366 Speaker 7: the NBA did it. 679 00:36:20,126 --> 00:36:22,206 Speaker 3: What do you think they're doing? What does it mean? 680 00:36:22,756 --> 00:36:25,296 Speaker 7: I don't know, just like, I'm cool. 681 00:36:26,176 --> 00:36:27,356 Speaker 3: Do you believe in God? 682 00:36:27,856 --> 00:36:28,096 Speaker 1: No. 683 00:36:29,146 --> 00:36:30,826 Speaker 7: I knew what it, I mean, now I know what 684 00:36:30,846 --> 00:36:31,986 Speaker 7: it meant, but no, I don't. 685 00:36:32,766 --> 00:36:33,466 Speaker 3: So what does it mean? 686 00:36:34,866 --> 00:36:36,626 Speaker 7: Basically, it's like, thank you, God. 687 00:36:37,546 --> 00:36:40,506 Speaker 2: For hitting a three-point shot? Do you think God was 688 00:36:40,566 --> 00:36:42,916 Speaker 2: responsible when Clay Thompson hit a three-point shot? 689 00:36:43,496 --> 00:36:48,236 Speaker 7: To be honest, if God was watching over everybody whenever 690 00:36:48,276 --> 00:36:52,986 Speaker 7: they hit a three-point shot, I don't think that he 691 00:36:53,026 --> 00:36:57,426 Speaker 7: would be able to actually make them make the shot. 692 00:36:58,226 --> 00:36:59,926 Speaker 2: So do you have anything you'd like to say to 693 00:36:59,946 --> 00:37:02,956 Speaker 2: the referees of the world before we turn this recording off? 694 00:37:03,736 --> 00:37:05,636 Speaker 7: Don't pick sides, unless it's my side. 695 00:37:06,696 --> 00:37:17,566 Speaker 3: Thank you. I'm Michael Lewis. Thanks for listening to Against 696 00:37:17,626 --> 00:37:18,126 Speaker 3: the Rules. 697 00:37:18,446 --> 00:37:21,126 Speaker 2: It's our first episode. We've got a lot more to come. 698 00:37:22,396 --> 00:37:24,836 Speaker 2: Against the Rules is brought to you by Pushkin Industries. 699 00:37:25,376 --> 00:37:28,156 Speaker 2: The show is produced by Audrey Dilling and Catherine Girardeau, 700 00:37:28,756 --> 00:37:33,516 Speaker 2: with research assistance from Zoe Oliver-Gray. Our editor is Julia Barton. 701 00:37:34,156 --> 00:37:37,936 Speaker 2: Mia Lobel is our executive producer. Our theme was composed 702 00:37:37,996 --> 00:37:41,256 Speaker 2: by Nick Bertel, with additional scoring by Seth Samuel. 703 00:37:42,206 --> 00:37:43,986 Speaker 3: Mastering by Jason Gambrell. 704 00:37:45,266 --> 00:37:48,746 Speaker 2: Our show was recorded at Northgate Studios in Berkeley by 705 00:37:48,786 --> 00:37:59,516 Speaker 2: Topher Ruth. Special thanks to our founders, Jacob Weisberg and 706 00:37:59,576 --> 00:38:00,416 Speaker 2: Malcolm Gladwell. 707 00:38:07,006 --> 00:38:08,866 Speaker 3: Part One. The Refs. 708 00:38:12,766 --> 00:38:15,106 Speaker 2: The same year Trump's name was being plastered onto the 709 00:38:15,146 --> 00:38:17,966 Speaker 2: side of the U.S. Institute of Peace, the East Wing 710 00:38:17,986 --> 00:38:20,006 Speaker 2: of the White House was being torn down to build 711 00:38:20,046 --> 00:38:23,476 Speaker 2: the President Donald J. Trump Ballroom, and the Kennedy Center 712 00:38:23,506 --> 00:38:25,416 Speaker 2: was on its way to becoming the Donald J. Trump 713 00:38:25,976 --> 00:38:29,356 Speaker 2: and the John F. Kennedy Memorial Center for the Performing Arts. 714 00:38:30,536 --> 00:38:35,116 Speaker 2: A foreign visa, government savings accounts for children, and a 715 00:38:35,156 --> 00:38:38,736 Speaker 2: prescription drug program were also all being named for Trump. 716 00:38:39,816 --> 00:38:42,496 Speaker 2: And White House staff had taken the trouble to redesign 717 00:38:42,536 --> 00:38:46,376 Speaker 2: an annual pass to America's national parks with Trump's face 718 00:38:46,436 --> 00:38:50,816 Speaker 2: on it. On the National Mall, a giant new Trump banner, 719 00:38:51,276 --> 00:38:54,546 Speaker 2: paired with one of Abraham Lincoln's, rippled down the facade 720 00:38:54,566 --> 00:38:58,566 Speaker 2: of the Department of Agriculture. Republicans in Congress were proposing 721 00:38:58,616 --> 00:39:03,016 Speaker 2: bills to rename Dulles International Airport for Trump, carve Trump's 722 00:39:03,076 --> 00:39:09,536 Speaker 2: face on Mount Rushmore, create both a $ 250 and $ 500 723 00:39:07,916 --> 00:39:12,026 Speaker 2: bill to honor Trump, make a federal holiday of Trump's birthday, 724 00:39:12,846 --> 00:39:15,706 Speaker 2: and erect a triumphal arch taller than the Lincoln Memorial, 725 00:39:16,326 --> 00:39:20,326 Speaker 2: nicknamed Arc de Trump. All of this was obviously kind 726 00:39:20,346 --> 00:39:23,626 Speaker 2: of weird. No other president had ever used the office 727 00:39:23,706 --> 00:39:28,446 Speaker 2: so energetically to promote his personal brand. But the environment 728 00:39:28,466 --> 00:39:33,986 Speaker 2: had changed. It tolerated some new behaviors and discouraged some 729 00:39:34,106 --> 00:39:38,906 Speaker 2: old ones. It took Tim Curry a surprisingly long time 730 00:39:38,946 --> 00:39:41,406 Speaker 2: to see what this shift in the climate meant for him. 731 00:39:42,506 --> 00:39:45,946 Speaker 2: At first, he assumed it meant nothing. During the first 732 00:39:45,986 --> 00:39:50,656 Speaker 2: Trump administration, he'd been perfectly satisfied with his job. Those 733 00:39:50,696 --> 00:39:54,316 Speaker 2: four years had felt to him much like the previous 21, 734 00:39:54,316 --> 00:39:57,236 Speaker 2: at least until the very end. A Democrat would win 735 00:39:57,256 --> 00:39:59,376 Speaker 2: the White House and ask Tim to inflict some new 736 00:39:59,416 --> 00:40:03,346 Speaker 2: set of policies upon the federal workforce. A Republican would 737 00:40:03,366 --> 00:40:05,846 Speaker 2: win the next time and ask Tim to inflict a 738 00:40:05,886 --> 00:40:09,886 Speaker 2: nearly opposite set of policies. One day, no employee of 739 00:40:09,926 --> 00:40:12,556 Speaker 2: the U.S. government was required to get the COVID vaccine. 740 00:40:13,736 --> 00:40:17,636 Speaker 2: The next day, everyone was. Trump to Biden had been 741 00:40:17,656 --> 00:40:21,136 Speaker 2: a jolt, but so were all the others. Those kind 742 00:40:21,156 --> 00:40:24,606 Speaker 2: of jolts didn't bother Tim. For his deft management of 743 00:40:24,626 --> 00:40:27,466 Speaker 2: the vaccine policy, he'd been given the country's highest civil 744 00:40:27,506 --> 00:40:32,296 Speaker 2: service honor, the Presidential Distinguished Rank Award, conferred on only 1% 745 00:40:32,296 --> 00:40:36,736 Speaker 2: of the Senior Executive Service, SES. But if they'd asked 746 00:40:36,776 --> 00:40:39,676 Speaker 2: him to somehow extract the vaccines from the bodies of 747 00:40:39,716 --> 00:40:43,556 Speaker 2: the entire federal workforce, he'd have done that too. Tim 748 00:40:43,576 --> 00:40:45,636 Speaker 2: would joke that his job is to spend four years 749 00:40:45,696 --> 00:40:48,826 Speaker 2: doing something and then spend the next four years undoing it, 750 00:40:49,136 --> 00:40:53,076 Speaker 2: one colleague said. But he's okay with it. Tim worked 751 00:40:53,116 --> 00:40:57,446 Speaker 2: in the Office of Personnel Management, OPM. His official title 752 00:40:57,506 --> 00:41:03,166 Speaker 2: was Deputy Associate Director, Accountability and Workforce Relations. But that 753 00:41:03,206 --> 00:41:06,426 Speaker 2: didn't help explain what he did all day. The small 754 00:41:06,486 --> 00:41:08,866 Speaker 2: box he was in charge of, three levels down the 755 00:41:08,946 --> 00:41:13,526 Speaker 2: OPM org chart, had changed names over the decades. But 756 00:41:13,566 --> 00:41:16,816 Speaker 2: its two roles were probably as old as the nonpartisan 757 00:41:16,836 --> 00:41:21,496 Speaker 2: civil service. It refereed disputes between government managers and workers. 758 00:41:22,146 --> 00:41:27,206 Speaker 2: and oversaw negotiations between government agencies and unions. OPM was 759 00:41:27,246 --> 00:41:30,306 Speaker 2: sort of a meta-agency, a handful of people who helped 760 00:41:30,346 --> 00:41:33,666 Speaker 2: the people who helped the people. It was small and 761 00:41:33,706 --> 00:41:36,886 Speaker 2: obscure and designed to kill the curiosity of all but 762 00:41:36,906 --> 00:41:40,346 Speaker 2: the most hardcore good government types. But it offered the 763 00:41:40,406 --> 00:41:44,296 Speaker 2: best perch inside the U.S. government to see and control 764 00:41:44,456 --> 00:41:48,336 Speaker 2: all of it. Still, on their weekly calls, Tim's father 765 00:41:48,616 --> 00:41:52,476 Speaker 2: would occasionally ask him, one more time, to explain his job. 766 00:41:53,536 --> 00:41:56,116 Speaker 2: It took years for my dad to understand what I did, 767 00:41:56,336 --> 00:41:59,416 Speaker 2: said Tim. He'd get confused and think I work for 768 00:41:59,456 --> 00:42:02,646 Speaker 2: a union. Part of the problem, part of the reason 769 00:42:02,666 --> 00:42:04,546 Speaker 2: it was hard to see what he did, was that 770 00:42:04,606 --> 00:42:07,106 Speaker 2: so much of what he did was preventative. He was 771 00:42:07,166 --> 00:42:10,366 Speaker 2: himself a kind of vaccine. If he did his job well, 772 00:42:11,006 --> 00:42:14,846 Speaker 2: it meant that some massive workplace injustice or scandal didn't happen. 773 00:42:15,806 --> 00:42:17,446 Speaker 2: He wasn't a lawyer, but he spent a lot of 774 00:42:17,486 --> 00:42:21,266 Speaker 2: his time explaining laws to people. He wasn't an arbitrator, 775 00:42:21,626 --> 00:42:23,346 Speaker 2: but he spent a lot of time being yelled at 776 00:42:23,646 --> 00:42:26,456 Speaker 2: by both union leaders and the heads of federal agencies, 777 00:42:26,836 --> 00:42:30,196 Speaker 2: and then, when they were finished yelling, selling both sides 778 00:42:30,256 --> 00:42:33,656 Speaker 2: on a solution to the problem. It's hard to explain 779 00:42:33,696 --> 00:42:36,156 Speaker 2: the connection between Tim's job and the speed with which 780 00:42:36,196 --> 00:42:39,936 Speaker 2: you get your tax refund, said one former OPM political appointee, 781 00:42:40,716 --> 00:42:44,016 Speaker 2: but there is a connection. Tim's needed for the government 782 00:42:44,056 --> 00:42:48,356 Speaker 2: to work. Another political person described Tim Curry as OPM's 783 00:42:48,846 --> 00:42:53,096 Speaker 2: bus person. Bus people, he explained, are people who if 784 00:42:53,116 --> 00:42:55,876 Speaker 2: they are hit by a bus, the government stops working. 785 00:42:57,156 --> 00:43:00,276 Speaker 2: All the political appointees, the temporary heads of the agencies 786 00:43:00,336 --> 00:43:03,956 Speaker 2: installed by the president, came around to this opinion. Even 787 00:43:04,006 --> 00:43:08,126 Speaker 2: the Trump political appointees, who in theory despise the federal government. 788 00:43:09,026 --> 00:43:12,926 Speaker 2: The very people who would cook up Project 2025, the 789 00:43:12,946 --> 00:43:17,166 Speaker 2: 900-page manifesto that proposed to dismantle the government, would also 790 00:43:17,266 --> 00:43:19,756 Speaker 2: poke their heads into Tim's office to seek his help. 791 00:43:20,686 --> 00:43:23,706 Speaker 2: They needed Tim Curry because Tim Curry was the only 792 00:43:23,786 --> 00:43:27,306 Speaker 2: one inside the United States government that everyone in any 793 00:43:27,346 --> 00:43:30,186 Speaker 2: particular dispute was happy to deal with.