1 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:08,239 Speaker 1: On this episode of news World. The twenty twenty four 2 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:12,440 Speaker 1: presidential election was an election the American people dreaded a 3 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 1: rematch between the two oldest men to ever serve as president. 4 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:19,160 Speaker 1: But somewhere along the way, the Battle for the White 5 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:23,239 Speaker 1: House became the most jaw dropping, heart pounding, head turning 6 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 1: contest in American history. The ride was so wild that 7 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:30,480 Speaker 1: it forced a sitting president to drop his reelection. Bid 8 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 1: I once sent future president to survive felony convictions and 9 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: a would be assassin's bullet, and a vice president unexpectedly 10 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 1: thrown into the arena to mount an unprecedented one hundred 11 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: and seven day campaign to lead the free world. And 12 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: that's why I was very excited that. In their new 13 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:51,240 Speaker 1: book Fight Inside, the Wildest Battle for the White House, 14 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 1: best selling authors Jonathan Allen and Amy Parnes provide the 15 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: first graphic view of the characters, their motivations, and the 16 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 1: innermost thoughts as they battled to claim the ultimate prize 17 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:07,200 Speaker 1: and define a political era. Based on real time interviews 18 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:11,400 Speaker 1: with more than one hundred and fifty insiders from the Trump, Harris, 19 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 1: and Biden inner circles, as well as party leaders and operatives, 20 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 1: Fight delivers the vivid and stunning tale of an election 21 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:23,759 Speaker 1: unlike any other. Here to discuss their book. I'm really 22 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 1: pleased to welcome my guests, Jonathan Allen, an award winning 23 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:31,480 Speaker 1: political reporter at NBC News, and Amy Parnes, a senior 24 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 1: political correspondent covering national politics at The Hill. Welcome to 25 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:44,840 Speaker 1: both of you. 26 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:47,040 Speaker 2: Thank you so much, mister speaker. 27 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you, mister speaker. It's a pleasure to be 28 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 3: with you. 29 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 1: First of A, I want to congratulate you as an 30 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 1: author myself. The fact that Fight is number two in 31 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 1: the New York Times Nonfiction bestseller list this week. It's 32 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:00,200 Speaker 1: a great achievement for a book which I think, by 33 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 1: word of mouth, is just going to continue to sew. 34 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:06,440 Speaker 1: I'm curious when did you two come up with the 35 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: concept of doing this book. 36 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:10,520 Speaker 4: This is our third campaign book, and we weren't even 37 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 4: going to do it until our publisher asked us on 38 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 4: the heels of Biden's disastrous debate last June, if we 39 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:20,959 Speaker 4: would jump in, and so, of course we were pulled in, 40 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:23,400 Speaker 4: and we knew that it was going to be an 41 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:26,680 Speaker 4: incredible election cycle, but we could never have predicted the 42 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:29,960 Speaker 4: twists and turns that this race would take. 43 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 1: When you talked about that debate and you write that quote, 44 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 1: Biden altered the course of the twenty twenty four election 45 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 1: in a profound and prominent manner. Did the debate surprise you? 46 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 3: It did, mister speaker. And here's the reason. It's not 47 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 3: that Amy or I thought that Joe Biden was that 48 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:51,080 Speaker 3: Joe Biden of the vice presidency or his days in 49 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 3: the Senate. We wrote a book about the twenty twenty 50 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 3: election called Lucky that delved into the strange situation where 51 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:00,919 Speaker 3: Biden was able to be hidden because of the pandemic, 52 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 3: basically hidden from the voters for most of that election. 53 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:06,640 Speaker 3: We knew that he had even at that point, lost 54 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 3: something off his fastball, and I think we all saw 55 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 3: that there was decline. But still it is shocking, I'm 56 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 3: trying to think of a better word for it, but 57 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 3: just utterly shocking to see the leader of the free 58 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 3: world so bereft of coherent thought. I mean, there should 59 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:26,079 Speaker 3: never be a minute period or five minute period where 60 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:28,800 Speaker 3: the president of the United States is in the kind 61 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 3: of fog that Joe Biden was in that night, and 62 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 3: the way that we put it in the book, and 63 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 3: I you know, sources had put it to us, is 64 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 3: you can't unsee that. You can't see the person with 65 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 3: all the power to defend us with his finger on 66 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 3: the nuclear button just incapable of cogency. And so it 67 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 3: was shocking on that level. The degree to which and 68 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 3: the profundity of the decline I think was shocking. 69 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 1: Do you report that his total debate prep was one 70 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: forty five minute round? First, well, I'm not quite sure 71 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 1: why they wanted this early debate. You might be able 72 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: to shed some light on that. But if you're going 73 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 1: to do an early debate, is the incumbent it was 74 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: anyway you would block in a week to just totally focus, 75 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: and they get forty five minutes? 76 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, Well, I think, mister speaker, they wanted to change 77 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 4: the trajectory of the race. They needed a reset. They 78 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:22,479 Speaker 4: were looking at their internal pulling and it was showing 79 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:26,680 Speaker 4: that the former president was winning, and so I think 80 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 4: his team got together and thought that they needed to 81 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 4: do something to change the direction. And so they landed 82 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 4: on this debate, thinking that it would be a reset 83 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:40,159 Speaker 4: of sorts, and little do they know, it would pull 84 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:42,280 Speaker 4: them in the other direction and it would lead to 85 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 4: the president withdrawing from the race. They tried to do 86 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 4: various debate sessions with him, but he was in the 87 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 4: middle of a cold. We described this in great detail 88 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 4: in the book. But he had a sore throat and 89 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 4: he was coughing and sneezing, and they tried to work 90 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:01,599 Speaker 4: with him. We asked, why wouldn't you cancel the debate, 91 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 4: and they thought that that would be even worse. It 92 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 4: would signal to people that, you know, he was weak 93 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 4: and couldn't be while he was sick, and so they 94 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:11,479 Speaker 4: were in a no win situation. 95 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:14,360 Speaker 1: Do you think in retrospect they would have been better 96 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:15,040 Speaker 1: after cancel. 97 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 3: That's a good question. I think if they thought they 98 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 3: could reschedule it quickly, then maybe it would have been 99 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 3: better to cancel. The truth is, maybe those were the 100 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 3: worst five minutes or ten minutes of Joe Biden's life. 101 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:28,600 Speaker 3: But my guess is that they weren't. And at some 102 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 3: point the American public was either going to decide that 103 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:33,839 Speaker 3: he was hiding too much or they were going to 104 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 3: see him like that. And if it had happened in 105 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:38,839 Speaker 3: September or October, you know, they wouldn't have had an 106 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 3: opportunity to make a change. Obviously, President Trump wins despite 107 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 3: having had to beat both Joe Biden and Kamala Harris. 108 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:52,920 Speaker 3: I think what Harris provided the Democrats was somebody that 109 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 3: could rally around to minimize the number of defeats they 110 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 3: had in House and Senate races. 111 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 1: Do you think if Biden hedged in that he would 112 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 1: have lost by a bigger margin than Harris did? 113 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:07,599 Speaker 4: I think definitely. I mean, he seems to think that 114 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 4: he would have won. He has said as much, but 115 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 4: all evidence points to the fact that she probably performed 116 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 4: better than he would have. 117 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 1: As you talked with people, what was the sense you 118 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:24,920 Speaker 1: got that there wasn't more honest reporting about just how 119 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 1: deeply he had declined. 120 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:30,160 Speaker 4: I think it's an unfair criticism to be honest, mister speaker, 121 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 4: because I know I can speak for myself and John 122 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:36,919 Speaker 4: in that we not only reported that his mental acuity 123 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 4: and his age in our respective news outlets, but we 124 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:43,279 Speaker 4: also wrote about it in our previous book Lucky. We 125 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:45,359 Speaker 4: always kind of knew about this, but we do have 126 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 4: new revelations in the book which shed new light on 127 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 4: how much President Biden was losing. As John says his fastball, 128 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 4: how he comes face to face with a Congressman, Eric Swalwell, 129 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:00,120 Speaker 4: and at a congressional picnic at the White House, and 130 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 4: he doesn't recognize him. He needs to be cued by 131 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:05,280 Speaker 4: Swallwell about who he is. This is a guy who 132 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 4: he competed against in twenty twenty and shared a debate 133 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:09,159 Speaker 4: stage with. 134 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 2: And there are other moments. 135 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:14,920 Speaker 4: He needed fluorescent tape at a fundraiser's house to guide 136 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 4: him from place to place. That's more common in rallies 137 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 4: and bigger rallies, not as much in someone's home. A 138 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 4: teleprompter as well at someone's home, and we go on 139 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 4: and on. He needs a makeup artist when he travels. 140 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 4: That's sort of the first order of business that he 141 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 4: does when he's traveling. He meets with a makeup artist 142 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 4: ahead of meetings zoom meetings with his own staff. And 143 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 4: so there's revelation after revelation about all of this in 144 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 4: the book. 145 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 3: And mister Speaker, I would just add to that. I 146 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:46,679 Speaker 3: wouldn't make the argument that the media broadly covered itself 147 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 3: in glory with the coverage of Biden's decline, but there 148 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 3: are certain limitations. I mean, the White House was keeping 149 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 3: him in such a cocoon that even mid to high 150 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 3: level White House staffers didn't see him very often. When 151 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 3: you're in the media, if you're an objective journalist, you 152 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 3: can't go on television to write in a story that 153 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 3: the guy's got dementia or Alzheimer's, or try to diagnose 154 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 3: him as a doctor would. What you do is you 155 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 3: try to talk to the people that are close to 156 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 3: him and see what you can find out. Not surprisingly, 157 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 3: the White House officials tend to be pretty defensive of 158 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 3: the president. But as Amy said, I think both of 159 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 3: us did reporting on that decline, dating back to our 160 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 3: book Lucky and through the course of the last few years. 161 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 3: I think even we were shocked at the level that 162 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 3: we saw on the debate stage that one night, one 163 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 3: last thing. The American people aren't done. They could see 164 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 3: Biden's decline, even if it's not being reported as such, 165 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 3: even if nobody's got a diagnosis form, they could see 166 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 3: that decline, and they could see that the White House 167 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 3: was lying about it. And I think that's part of 168 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 3: the reason that Joe Biden was so unpopular by the 169 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 3: time he was out of the race, and I think 170 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:51,199 Speaker 3: it's one of the reasons that swing voters didn't trust 171 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:54,680 Speaker 3: the Democrats. By the time election day rolled around in November. 172 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 1: The next phase shocked me. Trump went through getting shot, 173 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:17,600 Speaker 1: the iconic moment of standing up, yelling, fight, fight, fight 174 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 1: with blood coming down, going to a very successful convention, 175 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 1: and everything is sort of set. You know that the 176 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:28,320 Speaker 1: Trump people know they can beat Biden. And I remember 177 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 1: that Sunday morning after the convention, Biden just dropped out. 178 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 1: I don't know how much George Clooney was responsible, but 179 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:39,079 Speaker 1: clearly between Speaker Pelosi and Barack Obama and others, there 180 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:42,679 Speaker 1: was a sudden surge to get him out of the race. Yeah. 181 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:44,720 Speaker 3: I think what's interesting was your speaker is there's basically 182 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 3: a twenty four day period there, and there are Democrats 183 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 3: that are watching that debate that know that they need 184 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 3: to get rid of Joe Biden, and one of them 185 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:56,719 Speaker 3: is Nancy Pelosi. But she also is very worried as 186 00:09:56,720 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 3: she's talking to donors and friends and you know, remember Congress. 187 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 3: Even that night, she's very worried, according to one of 188 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:05,920 Speaker 3: our sources who spoke to her, that there will be 189 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 3: a bum rush to get rid of Biden and that 190 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:11,199 Speaker 3: they will end up with Harris. And she does not 191 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 3: think that Kamala Harris is a very good candidate. She 192 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 3: also knows that the president can't be forced from the ticket. 193 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 3: That has to be his decision at some point, So 194 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 3: she knows that there's going to be pushed back from him. 195 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:25,559 Speaker 3: If she pushes on him too hard, that he'll get 196 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 3: his back up against the wall and he'll be counter productive. 197 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:29,680 Speaker 3: So you see her, over the course of twenty four 198 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:32,680 Speaker 3: days try to manage a process to get him to 199 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 3: a place where he will get out. Other people try 200 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 3: to do that, they're not as strong. His donors freeze 201 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 3: the money. The money for their super pack got frozen, 202 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:43,719 Speaker 3: and we go into all the sort of details of 203 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 3: these machinations in the book. We can talk about it 204 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 3: for about nine hours and not detail all the stuff 205 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 3: that's in the book. But I mean, I think the 206 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:54,200 Speaker 3: basic core is not just smart Democrats, but I would 207 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:57,560 Speaker 3: say most Democrats understood that Biden needed to leave. The 208 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 3: question was when you know how to get him to 209 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 3: make that decision on his own and who would replace him. 210 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:05,840 Speaker 3: And two of the most powerful people in the party, 211 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 3: Speaker Pelosi and President Obama, thought that the best idea 212 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:14,280 Speaker 3: was to have some sort of mini primary or open convention, 213 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 3: a mini primary leading to an open convention, which in 214 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 3: my humble opinion, would have been a complete blood bath 215 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:23,960 Speaker 3: for the Democrats that would have ended up with Kamala 216 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 3: Harris as the nominee. 217 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:29,400 Speaker 1: Anyway, it just struck me at the time that I 218 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 1: don't know to what extent she was inevitable, and to 219 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 1: what extent Biden saying she should be my successor made 220 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:40,440 Speaker 1: it inevitable. You go from Joe Biden, the president is 221 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 1: the nominee, to Joe Biden is withdrawn and she's virtually inevitable. 222 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, what's fascinating about that moment is gathered in her 223 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:54,200 Speaker 2: poolhouse at the Naval Observatory in Washington, are her very 224 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 2: close aids and advisors, and they're all meeting, not knowing 225 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:02,200 Speaker 2: that this announcement is coming the coming hours. They're meeting 226 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 2: to discuss what a switch might look like, and they 227 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:08,240 Speaker 2: all think it might happen later in the week, but 228 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:11,679 Speaker 2: they're surprised to learn when someone comes in and alerts 229 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 2: them of the fact and she has to get on 230 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 2: the phone with the President. It's quite startling to all 231 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 2: of them. And then that leads to her kind of 232 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 2: wanting She knows that every minute counts, and she really 233 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 2: needs to get everyone behind her, including her boss, President Biden, 234 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 2: and so she asks him on the call. She says, 235 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 2: are you sure you're going to drop out? And he 236 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 2: says yes, And she says, are you going to endorse me? 237 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 2: And he says, You've got my support, kid, which obviously 238 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 2: isn't a full endorsement, and she knows that, so she 239 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:45,840 Speaker 2: pushes even more and says, look, I need your endorsement, 240 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 2: and so, long story short, he talks with his advisors 241 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 2: and they issue an endorsement, but he was going to 242 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 2: do it later in the week. So all of this 243 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:59,080 Speaker 2: was happening, and she knows that she needs the support 244 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 2: because there are other Democrats who are considering maybe jumping 245 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 2: in the race, and they're worried about people like Governor Pritzker. 246 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 2: She knew she had to pounce and quickly. 247 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 1: Did you think he did that because he genuinely liked 248 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:16,440 Speaker 1: her or he genuinely thought she was the natural follower 249 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:17,680 Speaker 1: of his presidency. 250 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:19,559 Speaker 3: I think he did it for a whole lot of reasons, 251 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:21,440 Speaker 3: mister speaker, And you would know this better than I would. 252 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 3: But I think often when people make political decisions, they 253 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 3: think about their gut, they make the list of pros 254 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:29,559 Speaker 3: and cons, and if everything lines up on the pro side, 255 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:31,320 Speaker 3: they do the thing. And I think in this case 256 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:33,320 Speaker 3: for him, there are a lot of things lining up 257 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 3: on the pro side, the first of which was if 258 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 3: he had picked somebody else or not endorsed her, it 259 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 3: would have looked like him admitting a mistake and having 260 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:43,320 Speaker 3: picked her to be the vice president in the first place. 261 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:46,440 Speaker 3: He tells the American people in twenty twenty, this is 262 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:49,079 Speaker 3: the next best person to run the country should something 263 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 3: happen to me. And if he turned around and didn't 264 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 3: endorse her, I think it would have made him look 265 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 3: bad in that original choice. I think because she's a 266 00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 3: black woman, and because the Democratic Party's sort of mores 267 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:02,439 Speaker 3: are or what they are, I think that he liked 268 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 3: the idea that should she win, he would get some 269 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:08,280 Speaker 3: plaudits for having paved the way in that direction, and 270 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 3: if he hadn't helped her, conversely, would have angered a 271 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:14,440 Speaker 3: lot of people in his own base. Just to touch 272 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:17,479 Speaker 3: on something Amy said a minute ago, it's just fascinating 273 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 3: for anybody that loves politics, and we really fleshed this 274 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 3: out in the book, is this moment of Joe Biden's 275 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 3: vanity really where he is saying to Kamala Harris on 276 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 3: the phone. And by the way, they had two phone calls. 277 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 3: It's only been reported before that they had won, but 278 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 3: in the book we have the second phone call too. 279 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 3: He's got this moment of vanity where he's saying to her, 280 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 3: I want you, but I want three or four days 281 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 3: to just sort of bask in the glory of my 282 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 3: own greatness at voluntarily giving up power like George Washington. 283 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:52,480 Speaker 3: And we all heard him say that right, Like when 284 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 3: he gave his speech to the nation, he compared himself 285 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 3: to George Washington. By the way, he compared himself to 286 00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:00,080 Speaker 3: George Washington, to FDR to LBJ throughout his present and 287 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 3: seeing I think that we will all look back and 288 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 3: say that he was neither none of those leaders. He 289 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 3: was not Reagan, not Lincoln. But there's this moment of 290 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 3: vanity and he wants to be the center of attention still, 291 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 3: and Kamala Harris is like, I got to like whip 292 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 3: these votes. I got to get all these people lined up. 293 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 3: I got to do it before Gretchen Whitmer or Gavin Newsomber, JB. 294 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 3: Pritzker gets out of the box, and I've gotten advantage, 295 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 3: but only if you endorse me quickly. And if you 296 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 3: don't endorse me quickly, we all devolved, and she finally 297 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 3: sort of makes that case, and he ends up doing 298 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 3: two statements about thirty minutes apart. That's as close as 299 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:37,760 Speaker 3: she can get to getting ab toor endorser in the 300 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 3: first statement, is that he does his second one endorsing her. 301 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 3: And to just point an exclamation point on why this 302 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 3: mattered so much, we report that Jim Clyburn, a congressman 303 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 3: from South Carolina. I know you know him well, mister Speaker. 304 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 3: He was elected I think just before you became speaker. 305 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:56,600 Speaker 3: Cliburne knows he has a phone call scheduled with Obama 306 00:15:56,640 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 3: that afternoon, and he wants to be able to get 307 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 3: out his own endorsement of Harris because he knows Obama 308 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 3: is calling to get him to support an open convention. 309 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 3: So even after the transfer, Obama is still trying to 310 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:08,320 Speaker 3: make that happen. 311 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 1: It does raise a question, sort of a what if 312 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 1: all the delegates had already been picked so you had 313 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 1: a finite universe. I mean, I do think the threat 314 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 1: of the Black Caucus to have repudiated her would have, 315 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 1: I think, irrevocably shattered the party for the foreseeable future. 316 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 1: So in that sense, she was almost the inevitable money. 317 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 1: But at the same time, you try to think about 318 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 1: anybody else trying to enter at that point, even if 319 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 1: Biden had not endorsed her, would have had an enormous 320 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 1: uphill problem. I don't quite see how even somebody with 321 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 1: Newsom's resources or Prisco's resources, how they could have done 322 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 1: it in a short time that was available. 323 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 3: I agree with you, mister Speaker, and I think that's 324 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 3: one of the reasons none of them ended up trying, 325 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 3: is that it takes enormous resources. She was able to 326 00:16:56,600 --> 00:17:00,120 Speaker 3: inherit the Biden campaign treasury, which was a big thing 327 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 3: that others would not have been able to do, or 328 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 3: at least it would have been more complicated in terms 329 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 3: of election law. So I agree with you. I think 330 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:09,479 Speaker 3: anybody else gets in, they have some sort of open convention. 331 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 3: They destroyed their party for many years in the fight 332 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 3: that happens, and she ends up with it. 333 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 1: Anyway, we're at a point now he has endorsed her, 334 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 1: she is inevitable. I've often thought about the Trump people 335 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 1: that invested all the time and energy. They clearly thought 336 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 1: they had Biden in a position where they're going to 337 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:30,920 Speaker 1: beat him, and all of a sudden that Sunday, their 338 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 1: world changes. I mean that had to be reasonably traumatic. 339 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:38,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it was very much traumatic, not least 340 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:41,960 Speaker 3: for President Trump. Something that's lost at times, I guess 341 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:44,360 Speaker 3: is sort of the degree to which his comeback is 342 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:47,480 Speaker 3: like the most epic comeback in American political history. 343 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:50,920 Speaker 1: Maybe you could argue Andrew Jackson from after he lost 344 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 1: in twenty four this is the most extraordinary personal achievement 345 00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 1: of just grinding your way to power that I've ever seen. 346 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:03,880 Speaker 3: And he beats Joe Biden, he knocks him clean out 347 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 3: of the election. There's one more for anybody that plays 348 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 3: video games. It's like one more boss after you thought 349 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:11,160 Speaker 3: you won the video. 350 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 1: When I talked to him during that period, they were 351 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:17,919 Speaker 1: actually pretty confident that they beat her. I think they 352 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 1: were a little rattled about how to shift gears and 353 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 1: that took him about a week. But underneath that they 354 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:27,239 Speaker 1: thought they would shift gears, that she was definable, they 355 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:29,239 Speaker 1: would be able to beat her, and they just had 356 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:30,200 Speaker 1: to grind it out. 357 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:32,240 Speaker 3: So I agree with you the people that we spoke 358 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 3: to also felt confident, but I would say a little 359 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 3: nervously confident, right, I mean there's that underlying We don't 360 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:43,240 Speaker 3: know exactly how long her sugar high's going to last. 361 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 1: And it was disoriented. I mean, you suddenly had all 362 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:49,919 Speaker 1: this new money coming in, all this new enthusiasm, and 363 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 1: you had, of course the propaganda media's all out effort 364 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:55,159 Speaker 1: to build her up as though she was Joan of 365 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 1: Arc reincarnated. Maybe it would have been a close race 366 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:02,920 Speaker 1: around Labert. There was sort of a peak moment of 367 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 1: pretending that she was really competent, and then gradually that 368 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:09,440 Speaker 1: turned out that she lacked the cognitive excuse that Biden has. 369 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 1: But she wasn't actually much better at answering questions than Biden. 370 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:16,639 Speaker 3: Was arguably worse, right, I mean, this was a change election. 371 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:19,119 Speaker 3: The vast majority of Americans said the country was on 372 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:23,960 Speaker 3: the wrong track. Biden offered nothing and change. He's out, 373 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:27,879 Speaker 3: there's this opportunity for her to offer something that is 374 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:31,680 Speaker 3: changed from what Biden's doing, and she lashes herself to him, 375 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:34,480 Speaker 3: and he tells her as we were in the book 376 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 3: for the first time, he says to her, no daylight kid, 377 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:39,679 Speaker 3: don't distance yourself. For me, there should be no daylight 378 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:42,479 Speaker 3: between us. And she's hearing this as she comes in, 379 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:44,639 Speaker 3: and you know, she owes him some loyalty put her 380 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:47,399 Speaker 3: in this position in the first place, and she doesn't 381 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:50,880 Speaker 3: have her own plan, and I think that becomes pretty apparent. 382 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:53,719 Speaker 3: And so as a result, the Democrats are offering nothing 383 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:56,639 Speaker 3: in the way of substantive change to the American people 384 00:19:56,720 --> 00:20:00,480 Speaker 3: in what was clearly a change election I mean elections 385 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:03,920 Speaker 3: or change elections. But I don't remember a right track 386 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 3: wrong track that looked like the right track wrong track 387 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 3: of this election cycle. It could not have been screaming 388 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:11,040 Speaker 3: more loudly at the Democrats. 389 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:14,919 Speaker 1: The Jimmy Carter right track wrong track in eighty was comparable, 390 00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:19,439 Speaker 1: but not dramatically works. She's raising this astonishing amount of money. 391 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:23,199 Speaker 1: It's hard to imagine you could raise that amount of 392 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 1: money and not somehow figure out a strategy for defining 393 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 1: Trump out of the race, I know. 394 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:32,359 Speaker 4: And you know what's interesting is that she had outraised 395 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 4: him and outspent him in the end, and even the 396 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 4: metrics were all in her favor too, you know, And 397 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:40,639 Speaker 4: they kept pointing out us that they had more boots 398 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:43,920 Speaker 4: on the ground, they had more people in the swinging states, 399 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 4: And what's interesting is it didn't matter because she wasn't 400 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:51,919 Speaker 4: really connecting. Her message wasn't resonating with voters, and they 401 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 4: were all over the place in terms of message, and 402 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 4: I think that's why you're seeing the Democratic Party right 403 00:20:56,600 --> 00:21:00,439 Speaker 4: now kind of loss and not understanding what it is 404 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:01,119 Speaker 4: they stand for. 405 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:05,480 Speaker 1: From that standpoint, I always felt that she was sort 406 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 1: of caught on a trap and that if she had 407 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:10,840 Speaker 1: tried to distance herself from Biden, Biden would probably have 408 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:14,119 Speaker 1: reacted very aggressively, and he did towards the end. I 409 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 1: always thought, towards the very end that he and Jill 410 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:19,440 Speaker 1: decided it'll be pretty cool to be the only person 411 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 1: ever to beat Trump. But I just had this sense 412 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 1: that there are three or four things he did towards 413 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:26,120 Speaker 1: the end that hurt her, and that they weren't because 414 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:29,680 Speaker 1: he was stupid and old Jesus decided that she wasn't 415 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:31,639 Speaker 1: going to be president, and that he was pretty happy 416 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 1: about that. 417 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 3: I don't think our reporting ever got to the level 418 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 3: of here's exactly what Joe Biden was thinking as he 419 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:42,600 Speaker 3: sabotaged Kamala Harris. But to your point, you can literally 420 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 3: point to three or four things that he did. By 421 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:46,920 Speaker 3: the way, the White House staff was telling the campaign 422 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:51,440 Speaker 3: staff do whatever you have to do to win, and Biden, 423 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 3: one on one with Harris was telling her don't distance yourself. 424 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:57,200 Speaker 3: So I think that's a number one sort of thing. 425 00:21:57,240 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 3: And to share other point, there's an implicit threat in 426 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 3: that he's still the sitting president. He still has the 427 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 3: bully pulp at the platform, and if she distances herself, 428 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:09,200 Speaker 3: he has the ability to slam her for it, no 429 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:12,399 Speaker 3: matter how directly or subtly or whatnot. He has the 430 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 3: ability to influence her future. And then you know, he 431 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:17,160 Speaker 3: puts on a Maga hat at one of the rallies. 432 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:22,240 Speaker 3: My son still thinks that Joe Biden endorsed Donald Trump 433 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:26,400 Speaker 3: because he saw that video that didn't Biden endorse Trump. 434 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:29,359 Speaker 3: And I'm like, no, Biden didn't endorse Trump. He makes 435 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 3: that remark about and I want to use quotation marks 436 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 3: here about Trump supporters being garbage while she's giving her 437 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:39,160 Speaker 3: sort of her culmination speech, you know, at the foot 438 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:41,440 Speaker 3: of the White House. So, yeah, he did some things. 439 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 1: I wrote it at the time. If you hold a 440 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 1: big party with seventy five thousand people directly in front 441 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 1: of the White House, and you don't invite the president 442 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:55,399 Speaker 1: first lady, they are likely to be very offended. What 443 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:56,119 Speaker 1: did I miss? 444 00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 3: I think you're right, mister speaker. 445 00:22:58,480 --> 00:22:59,920 Speaker 1: What was the Harrish team thinking? 446 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 4: I think they wanted to publicly distance themselves from him. 447 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:07,640 Speaker 4: They see the polls more than anyone. They knew how 448 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:11,399 Speaker 4: unpopular he was in that moment, and yet they couldn't 449 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 4: quite do that because of what the President was telling Paris, 450 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 4: which was pleased no daylight between us, and so they 451 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:22,400 Speaker 4: were walking a tightrope in how to handle that situation. 452 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:42,359 Speaker 1: One of the interesting things you get into that was 453 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 1: a little bit of a surprise, I think was the 454 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:49,399 Speaker 1: emergence of JD. Vance as vice president. Trump really weighed 455 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:52,560 Speaker 1: that for a pretty good length of time. It wasn't automatic. 456 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, I think that process played out the way. 457 00:23:56,920 --> 00:24:00,199 Speaker 3: Not every process that President Trump engages and plays out 458 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:02,439 Speaker 3: in a sort of traditional way, but I think this 459 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:05,199 Speaker 3: one kind of did in that I think Vance was 460 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 3: always the favorite, or at least had to lead over 461 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,560 Speaker 3: the others, and the President in the end got back 462 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,120 Speaker 3: to his guy or the guy that was leading the pack. 463 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:16,679 Speaker 3: But he has this sort of beauty pageant, right or 464 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:20,680 Speaker 3: the bachelorette or something where he's bringing vice presidential hopefuls 465 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:22,800 Speaker 3: on stage with him and he's praising them and he's 466 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 3: talking about their chances openly. It's entertainment, and it keeps 467 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,480 Speaker 3: the focus on Trump and that pick at times when 468 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,680 Speaker 3: it might otherwise have been on Harris. We write about 469 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:35,720 Speaker 3: the sort of last effort to lobby him on Trump 470 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 3: Force one as he's flying to the Republican Convention. I 471 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 3: think in the end, Vance represented where the mag of 472 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 3: movement is going. I think he has his finger on 473 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:47,640 Speaker 3: the pulse of it better than anybody else. I think 474 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 3: Trump knew that Vance would be loyal to him as 475 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 3: vice president, and I think, or at least thought he 476 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 3: would be. And as we write, Trump doesn't actually think 477 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:59,199 Speaker 3: vice president is the most important of his picks. He 478 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:02,960 Speaker 3: thinks Secretary statement Attorney General are a little bit more important. 479 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:05,359 Speaker 3: But I think Vance represented enough of the things that 480 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,200 Speaker 3: he was looking for and nobody else did. 481 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 1: I have to go back, just for a second to Harris. 482 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:14,720 Speaker 1: Do you think if the campaign had lasted longer she 483 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 1: would have done better or worse. 484 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 4: She thinks that if the campaign went on longer she 485 00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 4: would have won. And we report that in the books 486 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 4: she's told aids that she thinks the condensed timetable was 487 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 4: not in her favor. But that's interesting because a lot 488 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:32,200 Speaker 4: of Democrats think that the shorter timetable did favor her. 489 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:35,959 Speaker 4: She came into it, she had the convention, she had 490 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,159 Speaker 4: the wind at her back, and then there was a 491 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 4: period where she didn't do any media and people had 492 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,359 Speaker 4: this sense that she was trying to run out the clock, 493 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:47,359 Speaker 4: and I think that hurt her, you know, and the 494 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 4: fact that she wasn't out there and let Trump sort 495 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:53,199 Speaker 4: of build the narrative around him at the time. And 496 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,399 Speaker 4: then there were these two ads, of course in the 497 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 4: final weeks of the campaign that I think were potent, 498 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 4: and one of them was the trans ad, which I 499 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,879 Speaker 4: think was probably the best political ad in recent cycles. 500 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:06,639 Speaker 4: And then another ad which talked about her appearance on 501 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,679 Speaker 4: the View, where she essentially said that there was nothing 502 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:13,280 Speaker 4: she would do that was different from the president. Both 503 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 4: of those things hurt her in big way. 504 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 1: I thought that was the death knell. Frankly, they loved 505 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:21,160 Speaker 1: the softest ball they could lob. She could have picked 506 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 1: anything and said, well, I probably do it. X differently, 507 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:26,720 Speaker 1: but instead she goes, oh, no, I can't think of 508 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 1: the thing I do differently. Well, as you are pointing out, 509 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: if this is a change election, that's unbelievably self destructive 510 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 1: on her part. If you want to understand the scale 511 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:41,879 Speaker 1: of Trump's genius and his capacity now to have started 512 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,600 Speaker 1: in fifteen and still be there doing it, it was 513 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:49,119 Speaker 1: the combination of giving out French fries at McDonald's and 514 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 1: then the garbage truck. If you're trying to appeal to 515 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:54,879 Speaker 1: Middle America, eighty seven percent of the country goes to 516 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 1: McDonald's at least once a year. Eighty seven percent. Forty 517 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 1: million Americans have worked at McDonald's, including Jeff Bezos. And then, 518 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:04,120 Speaker 1: of course you have the whole symbology with the garbage 519 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 1: truck and Trump walking into the convention hall wearing the 520 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,200 Speaker 1: garbage outfit and saying it makes people, say it makes 521 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:11,600 Speaker 1: them look thinner. Maybe I should wear it the rest 522 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:15,120 Speaker 1: of the campaign. I mean, at that point, I don't 523 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 1: care how much money she raises. The earned media value 524 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:21,840 Speaker 1: of those two events is incalculable. 525 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,640 Speaker 3: What seems to me, I absolutely agree with you. I mean, 526 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 3: Trump figured out in this election and we detail some 527 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 3: of it figured out in this election how to reach 528 00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:34,560 Speaker 3: voters who are not traditional voters and to basically create 529 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,400 Speaker 3: a cultural affinity with a lot of them. And it's 530 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,760 Speaker 3: more valuable than golden politics to have somebody like you 531 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,360 Speaker 3: because they think you go to McDonald's with them, or 532 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 3: you're willing to get in a garbage truck, or you 533 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:48,280 Speaker 3: get on one of the podcasts or one of the 534 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:51,359 Speaker 3: YouTube shows that they listen to, not for the politics, 535 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 3: but because they like the comedian that's doing it, or 536 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 3: they like the guests that show up there, and they 537 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:59,040 Speaker 3: suddenly start to think themselves, well, Donald Trump's not a politician, 538 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:01,159 Speaker 3: He's a guy like me. You know, you could sit. 539 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:03,919 Speaker 1: Down with Joe. Can you imagine Kamala trying to do 540 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 1: Joe Rogan for three hours? 541 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:09,439 Speaker 3: No, it would have been a disaster. I mean it 542 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:11,879 Speaker 3: was a disaster that they set up a rally for 543 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:17,439 Speaker 3: her in Houston on a Friday night in the fall 544 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 3: where football is the only thing going on, so that 545 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 3: she can be close to Joe Rogan's studio in case 546 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,520 Speaker 3: they work out a deal and it falls through and 547 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 3: it's not a swing state, there's no reason to be 548 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 3: in Texas, and they bring in Beyonce, and Beyonce refuses 549 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 3: to sing, so they don't even get that. Just total debacle. 550 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 3: But what might have been a worst debacle would have 551 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 3: been actually going on for three hours with Joe Rogan. 552 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 3: As we saw in the ten seconds on the View, 553 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:47,320 Speaker 3: she didn't have anything to say that would have differentiated 554 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,760 Speaker 3: her from Biden on anything substantive. The one thing she 555 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 3: said in the one debate was different between the two 556 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,719 Speaker 3: of them was background and experience. And that's not what 557 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 3: the public was looking for. It wasn't like we want 558 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,240 Speaker 3: somebody with a different background running in the country. That's 559 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 3: the change we're looking for. 560 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:06,040 Speaker 1: Well, I was watching Trump at Ultimate Fighting Championship. He 561 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:11,200 Speaker 1: currently has a net seventeen advantage among younger males in 562 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:15,360 Speaker 1: terms of approved disapproved seventeen okay, which for a Republican 563 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 1: has probably not been true since Theodore Roosevelt. And what 564 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:21,080 Speaker 1: hit me watching him was, first of all, I obviously 565 00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 1: enjoys himself, but for an entire generation of younger males, 566 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,600 Speaker 1: they could identify with what he was doing in a 567 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:30,720 Speaker 1: way that nobody else in the country would. People at 568 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 1: Harvard don't watch Aultimate Fighting Championships, but that there's a 569 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:38,720 Speaker 1: knack to what he does that is consistently marketing to 570 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 1: niches nobody else thinks of, and doing it in ways 571 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:46,200 Speaker 1: that are not political, but have a consequence that's very political. 572 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:49,680 Speaker 1: And I think that makes him very different from anybody 573 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 1: we've ever seen. 574 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:55,480 Speaker 3: It's second nature to him. It's the branding genius of 575 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 3: Donald Trump. You know, you could put ten Pepsi executives 576 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:01,640 Speaker 3: in a room and they would be half as good 577 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:04,840 Speaker 3: as Trump is at branding himself, and it feels so natural. 578 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 3: I am certain that, like most people in politics, he 579 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:10,240 Speaker 3: spends some of his time in the shower at night, 580 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 3: thinking like, what's the catch phrase I want out there? 581 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,600 Speaker 3: But whenever it comes out, it just sounds like everything else. 582 00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:18,479 Speaker 3: So to your point, I think he just kind of 583 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 3: subliminally is branding all the time to various people. 584 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:25,719 Speaker 1: Well, I think he sleeps four hours a day, and 585 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 1: I think for all twenty hours he's thinking about the 586 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 1: next game. The next phrase. Is just an endless process 587 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 1: in his book. Let me ask you to one last question. 588 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,040 Speaker 1: I really appreciate you taking this time, and I'm delighted 589 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 1: that your publisher talked to you into doing this book, 590 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 1: which is pretty remarkable to put it together literally in 591 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,320 Speaker 1: real time as things were actually happening. But what's the 592 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 1: biggest single surprise to you looking at the whole experience. 593 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,080 Speaker 3: I'll tell you. I think the biggest single surprise is 594 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:58,560 Speaker 3: the degree to which President Trump learns at his age 595 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 3: most people aren't still actively learning. And you see I 596 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:06,400 Speaker 3: think between twenty twenty and twenty twenty four, a real 597 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:10,520 Speaker 3: understanding of what his limitations were on twenty twenty, how 598 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,960 Speaker 3: he hurt himself in the twenty twenty election in different ways, 599 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:17,040 Speaker 3: and what he needed to do to keep this campaign 600 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:21,120 Speaker 3: on track, including but not limited to hiring Susie Wiles 601 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:23,280 Speaker 3: to run the show. I think she did a great 602 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:26,360 Speaker 3: job with that. I think his position on a national 603 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 3: abortion ban, where he basically didn't endorse it, his staff 604 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:31,400 Speaker 3: came to him and said, look, a lot of these 605 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 3: swing states have more liberal abortion laws, and if you 606 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,640 Speaker 3: do a national abortion band, you're going to energize the 607 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,920 Speaker 3: folks that are for abortion rights. You're going to energize 608 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:42,920 Speaker 3: them against you. But if you don't support the thing, 609 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:45,080 Speaker 3: you take that issue off the table in those states. 610 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:47,960 Speaker 3: They convinced him to get behind early voting, which he 611 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,400 Speaker 3: obviously doesn't believe in you know, he's going to try 612 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,800 Speaker 3: to get rid of that now, but they convinced him. 613 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:55,280 Speaker 3: In order to compete, you got to do this. So 614 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:57,239 Speaker 3: you go through this and you're like, here is a 615 00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 3: candidate who has truly evolved from twenty twenty in terms 616 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 3: of focusing himself, disciplining himself on the campaign trail, listening 617 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:08,920 Speaker 3: to the right people, crowding out some of the wrong voices. 618 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:11,480 Speaker 3: To me, watching all of that happen, and getting sort 619 00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:13,080 Speaker 3: of an inside book, which I think you do in 620 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:16,120 Speaker 3: this book. Was it was surprising because it's surprising any 621 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:19,479 Speaker 3: time a fully grown adult actually develops and learns. I mean, 622 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:22,040 Speaker 3: I'm almost fifty and it's hard for me to learn 623 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:22,960 Speaker 3: and change my ways. 624 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,320 Speaker 4: There were so many but I think the human aspect. 625 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 4: We detail this scene in the book with Susie Wiles 626 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 4: talking to a communications aide Danielle Alvarez. I'm in a 627 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:37,000 Speaker 4: kitchenette as the Trump criminal trial is happening in New York, 628 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:40,760 Speaker 4: and it's a very human moment because she tears up, 629 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 4: she chokes up and says, I have a feeling if 630 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:46,640 Speaker 4: they're not going to get him this way, they're going 631 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 4: to try to kill him, and I think that's a really, 632 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,680 Speaker 4: really powerful moment, and it shows just how much all 633 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:57,719 Speaker 4: of these people went through in the last cycle at least, 634 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:00,960 Speaker 4: and so I think that is one big revelation. But 635 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:03,680 Speaker 4: also when you look at the train wreck on the 636 00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 4: Democratic side, you see that Kamala Harris enters election night 637 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:11,080 Speaker 4: thinking that she's going to win, And I think that 638 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:13,320 Speaker 4: was one of the biggest bombshells in the book too, 639 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:17,200 Speaker 4: because she is gas lit by her own campaign. So 640 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 4: I think you learn something new on every page of 641 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,440 Speaker 4: this book. But there are so many key moments that 642 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:23,680 Speaker 4: explain so much. 643 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:26,280 Speaker 1: Listen, I want to thank both of you for joining me. 644 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,640 Speaker 1: I think the speed with what you did this book, 645 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,240 Speaker 1: the number of unique insights you have in it. Fight 646 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,360 Speaker 1: Inside the Wildest Battle for the White House really is 647 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:39,560 Speaker 1: a wild book about a wild battle that's available now 648 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:43,200 Speaker 1: on Amazon and in bookstores everywhere. It's a great read. 649 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:46,520 Speaker 1: I recommend everybody wants to understand American politics and government 650 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:48,960 Speaker 1: how to get a copy of it, and we're certainly 651 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:51,000 Speaker 1: going to link to it on our show page. But 652 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 1: I want to thank the two of you given everything 653 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:56,520 Speaker 1: you're doing, and your status is once again best selling authors. 654 00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:58,760 Speaker 1: I really appreciate you taking time with us. 655 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:01,920 Speaker 2: Thank you, mister Thank you so much, mister speaker. 656 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:08,279 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guests Jonathan Allen and Amy Parns. 657 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:10,480 Speaker 1: You can get a link to buy their new book 658 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 1: Fight Inside the Wildest Battle for the White House on 659 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:17,680 Speaker 1: our show page at newtsworld dot com. Newtsworld is produced 660 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:21,960 Speaker 1: by Ginglish three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producers Guarnesie Sloan. 661 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,880 Speaker 1: Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show 662 00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,239 Speaker 1: was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the team 663 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,719 Speaker 1: at Gingrishtree sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope 664 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:35,279 Speaker 1: you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate us with 665 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,040 Speaker 1: five stars and give us a review so others can 666 00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:41,560 Speaker 1: learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners of Newtsworld 667 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 1: can sign up for my three free weekly columns at 668 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 1: Ginglishtree sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm Newt Gingrich. This 669 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:50,399 Speaker 1: is neut World.