1 00:00:14,916 --> 00:00:29,476 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Just last night, we were at the dinner table 2 00:00:29,636 --> 00:00:33,036 Speaker 1: and one of my two daughters was telling me about 3 00:00:33,396 --> 00:00:37,676 Speaker 1: a problem that she experienced with another person at school. 4 00:00:38,076 --> 00:00:41,116 Speaker 1: It was really bugging her the way this other student 5 00:00:41,316 --> 00:00:46,876 Speaker 1: behaved towards her, and she kept on going over the problem, 6 00:00:46,876 --> 00:00:52,476 Speaker 1: repeating it seventeen thousand different ways, and she wasn't making 7 00:00:52,516 --> 00:00:55,356 Speaker 1: any progress towards actually finding a way to think about 8 00:00:55,356 --> 00:00:57,796 Speaker 1: this thing that would make her feel better, and instead 9 00:00:58,156 --> 00:01:01,556 Speaker 1: it just kept all of those negative feelings alive. That's 10 00:01:01,556 --> 00:01:04,396 Speaker 1: what I call chatter. You keep on trying to think 11 00:01:04,436 --> 00:01:07,636 Speaker 1: and work through the problem, but you don't make any progress. 12 00:01:08,556 --> 00:01:11,436 Speaker 1: Ethan Us is a professor of psychology at the University 13 00:01:11,436 --> 00:01:14,516 Speaker 1: of Michigan, and he wrote the book Chatter, The Voice 14 00:01:14,516 --> 00:01:17,076 Speaker 1: in Our Heads, Why It Matters, and How to Harness It. 15 00:01:18,036 --> 00:01:21,196 Speaker 1: Ethan's an expert on the science of introspection, and his 16 00:01:21,316 --> 00:01:24,796 Speaker 1: research focuses on those moments when our inner voice turns negative, 17 00:01:25,316 --> 00:01:27,476 Speaker 1: and he gives us strategies for how to tame it 18 00:01:27,596 --> 00:01:29,996 Speaker 1: when it does. One of the things we know about 19 00:01:30,076 --> 00:01:32,676 Speaker 1: chatter is it zooms us in on our problems. We 20 00:01:32,716 --> 00:01:37,116 Speaker 1: get stuck thinking in a very narrow way about only 21 00:01:37,196 --> 00:01:40,836 Speaker 1: this issue right, we're not thinking about the bigger picture. 22 00:01:40,916 --> 00:01:44,396 Speaker 1: Are alternative ways of making sense of that circumstance, And 23 00:01:44,436 --> 00:01:48,636 Speaker 1: what we've learned over the years is that being able 24 00:01:48,676 --> 00:01:51,276 Speaker 1: to step back, just take a little step back in 25 00:01:51,356 --> 00:01:54,796 Speaker 1: your mind, get some psychological distance from your problems, can 26 00:01:54,836 --> 00:01:58,796 Speaker 1: be really useful for broadening our perspective and helping us 27 00:01:58,836 --> 00:02:04,556 Speaker 1: work through the situation more objectively. On today's episode, how 28 00:02:04,596 --> 00:02:07,236 Speaker 1: to Control our Inner Voice to help us live happier, 29 00:02:07,316 --> 00:02:13,796 Speaker 1: healthier lives, I'm Maya Shunker and this is a slight 30 00:02:13,876 --> 00:02:16,556 Speaker 1: change of plans, a show about who we are and 31 00:02:16,596 --> 00:02:20,036 Speaker 1: who we become in the face of a big change. 32 00:02:22,636 --> 00:02:25,796 Speaker 1: We're all familiar with our inner voice. It's that running 33 00:02:25,836 --> 00:02:29,036 Speaker 1: monologue in our heads that sometimes serves us well and 34 00:02:29,116 --> 00:02:32,676 Speaker 1: at other times, was the case with Ethan's daughter, totally 35 00:02:32,756 --> 00:02:35,956 Speaker 1: drives us nuts, and when it does, it can really 36 00:02:35,996 --> 00:02:40,076 Speaker 1: affect our well being. The good news science shows we 37 00:02:40,196 --> 00:02:42,676 Speaker 1: can change the way we engage with our inner voice, 38 00:02:43,116 --> 00:02:46,476 Speaker 1: and Ethan is here to help. But before we dive 39 00:02:46,476 --> 00:02:48,836 Speaker 1: into all that, I asked Ethan to give us an 40 00:02:48,836 --> 00:02:53,156 Speaker 1: overview of the positive aspects of this uniquely human ability. 41 00:02:53,756 --> 00:02:56,716 Speaker 1: I like to think about this inner voice as a 42 00:02:56,796 --> 00:03:00,076 Speaker 1: kind of Swiss army knife of the human mind that 43 00:03:00,196 --> 00:03:03,996 Speaker 1: lets us achieve a number of important things. So at 44 00:03:04,076 --> 00:03:07,516 Speaker 1: the most basic end of the spectrum, your inner voice 45 00:03:07,796 --> 00:03:09,876 Speaker 1: lets you just keep information active in your heads. This 46 00:03:09,956 --> 00:03:12,396 Speaker 1: may not be the most glamorous feature of it, but 47 00:03:12,676 --> 00:03:16,316 Speaker 1: my oh my, is it an important one. So if 48 00:03:16,356 --> 00:03:19,636 Speaker 1: you go to the grocery store, for example, and you're 49 00:03:19,716 --> 00:03:22,356 Speaker 1: like me, you know, my wife tells me what we need, 50 00:03:22,396 --> 00:03:25,316 Speaker 1: and thirty seconds later I forget what those things are. 51 00:03:25,516 --> 00:03:27,916 Speaker 1: I'm walking down the groceryil. Then I'm thinking to myself 52 00:03:28,196 --> 00:03:30,236 Speaker 1: what do I have to order? And I go over 53 00:03:30,236 --> 00:03:35,756 Speaker 1: the list in my head Cheese, granola, fruit. I'm using 54 00:03:35,796 --> 00:03:39,436 Speaker 1: words silently to repeat those items. It's part of our 55 00:03:39,556 --> 00:03:43,716 Speaker 1: working memory system, basic system of the human mind that 56 00:03:44,036 --> 00:03:47,756 Speaker 1: is fundamental to our ability to navigate the world. So 57 00:03:47,756 --> 00:03:49,476 Speaker 1: you're in a voice lets you do that, but then 58 00:03:49,476 --> 00:03:53,956 Speaker 1: it lets you do lots of other arguably, I don't know, 59 00:03:54,196 --> 00:03:59,596 Speaker 1: sexier things like like tell stories. Right, So we experienced 60 00:03:59,596 --> 00:04:03,596 Speaker 1: adversity in our lives. Oh my god, my paper was rejected, 61 00:04:03,876 --> 00:04:07,596 Speaker 1: My my, My kid didn't do well on the soccer field. 62 00:04:08,596 --> 00:04:11,076 Speaker 1: I didn't have a great conversation with a colleague yesterday. 63 00:04:11,116 --> 00:04:14,636 Speaker 1: When that happens, we turn our attention inward to make 64 00:04:14,716 --> 00:04:17,316 Speaker 1: sense of what happen to us, and we use our 65 00:04:17,356 --> 00:04:23,596 Speaker 1: inner voice to create those stories. That's a really important capacity. Yeah. 66 00:04:23,676 --> 00:04:25,516 Speaker 1: I love another one you mentioned in your book, which 67 00:04:25,556 --> 00:04:28,716 Speaker 1: is that our inability to escape our minds is also 68 00:04:28,756 --> 00:04:32,676 Speaker 1: a driver of human ingenuity. It's like the fact that 69 00:04:32,716 --> 00:04:36,276 Speaker 1: we can't escape our minds is giving us this fertile 70 00:04:36,316 --> 00:04:39,516 Speaker 1: soil for creative ideas to come into existence, right, I 71 00:04:39,516 --> 00:04:41,716 Speaker 1: mean those the thoughts you have in the shower and 72 00:04:41,716 --> 00:04:43,756 Speaker 1: you're taking a walk and you don't even notice it, 73 00:04:43,796 --> 00:04:45,436 Speaker 1: but your mind is drifting off and then all of 74 00:04:45,476 --> 00:04:48,996 Speaker 1: a sudden you come up with a new idea. Yeah, totally. 75 00:04:49,036 --> 00:04:51,676 Speaker 1: I mean I think this is the source of human innovation, 76 00:04:51,836 --> 00:04:54,476 Speaker 1: which is why I think we actually want to give 77 00:04:54,516 --> 00:05:00,796 Speaker 1: ourselves latitude to let our introspective capacities run wild. So, 78 00:05:01,476 --> 00:05:04,396 Speaker 1: you know, it's interesting. There's some research which suggests that 79 00:05:04,556 --> 00:05:07,956 Speaker 1: we spend between one half and one third of our 80 00:05:07,996 --> 00:05:12,596 Speaker 1: waking hours not focused on the present, and sometimes those 81 00:05:12,676 --> 00:05:16,236 Speaker 1: data are used to suggest that there's a huge problem, right, 82 00:05:16,276 --> 00:05:19,476 Speaker 1: because we should always be in the present, but this 83 00:05:19,676 --> 00:05:23,596 Speaker 1: ability to travel in time in our minds, so to 84 00:05:23,636 --> 00:05:25,676 Speaker 1: turn our attention and where to think about our past 85 00:05:25,756 --> 00:05:29,516 Speaker 1: and anticipate the future. This lets us do a number 86 00:05:29,556 --> 00:05:33,276 Speaker 1: of remarkable things. Yeah, so let's dig in right to 87 00:05:33,916 --> 00:05:36,996 Speaker 1: this live in the present more mantra. Right, that is 88 00:05:37,116 --> 00:05:39,836 Speaker 1: very much in the zeitgeist. I want to hear what 89 00:05:39,876 --> 00:05:42,356 Speaker 1: your reaction is to this, because it strikes me that 90 00:05:42,396 --> 00:05:47,076 Speaker 1: we are we are forgetting the benefits of allowing our 91 00:05:47,116 --> 00:05:50,996 Speaker 1: minds to wander. And my personal view is that we 92 00:05:51,036 --> 00:05:54,396 Speaker 1: are failing to appreciate how remarkable it is that we 93 00:05:54,436 --> 00:05:56,836 Speaker 1: even have this ability in the first place. So just 94 00:05:57,076 --> 00:06:01,476 Speaker 1: a personal anecdote is I remember my good friend from college, Dane. 95 00:06:01,516 --> 00:06:04,796 Speaker 1: He got onto the Mindfulness Meditation Present mind Inness train 96 00:06:05,436 --> 00:06:09,356 Speaker 1: and he got really enamored with this particular spiritual grew. 97 00:06:10,676 --> 00:06:13,236 Speaker 1: I remember Dane telling me, oh, yeah, Maya like you 98 00:06:14,036 --> 00:06:15,716 Speaker 1: gotta stay more in the present, And he sends me 99 00:06:15,756 --> 00:06:18,596 Speaker 1: a video of this grew and the Grew's going on 100 00:06:18,636 --> 00:06:21,476 Speaker 1: and on about the importance of staying in the present, 101 00:06:21,636 --> 00:06:23,396 Speaker 1: and then at one point he calls out a member 102 00:06:23,436 --> 00:06:25,196 Speaker 1: of the audience and he kind of gives like him 103 00:06:25,196 --> 00:06:27,276 Speaker 1: a stern lecture and he's like, what have you found 104 00:06:27,276 --> 00:06:29,556 Speaker 1: yourself thinking about and the guy's like, well, actually, I 105 00:06:29,636 --> 00:06:32,516 Speaker 1: was kind of imagining that I was going to go 106 00:06:32,556 --> 00:06:34,276 Speaker 1: to lunch after this, and I was kind of imagining 107 00:06:34,276 --> 00:06:36,396 Speaker 1: what I was going to order at the restaurant and 108 00:06:36,876 --> 00:06:38,996 Speaker 1: what it was going to taste like. And you know, 109 00:06:39,036 --> 00:06:41,916 Speaker 1: he gets the audience member gets scolded by the grew 110 00:06:41,996 --> 00:06:46,476 Speaker 1: for having these thoughts, and I'm thinking to myself, first 111 00:06:46,516 --> 00:06:49,636 Speaker 1: of all, this Grew's very boring to me. So it's 112 00:06:49,676 --> 00:06:52,476 Speaker 1: wonderful that this audience member had an escape route from 113 00:06:52,476 --> 00:06:56,516 Speaker 1: the lecture that was happening. But two, it's amazing that 114 00:06:56,596 --> 00:07:00,076 Speaker 1: we have this faculty that allows us at times to 115 00:07:00,356 --> 00:07:05,156 Speaker 1: escape our present environment and think about other things, to daydream, 116 00:07:05,196 --> 00:07:08,276 Speaker 1: to think about the future, to anticipate things like that 117 00:07:08,436 --> 00:07:11,676 Speaker 1: is a rich part of the human experience that I 118 00:07:11,756 --> 00:07:14,836 Speaker 1: don't want to be lost on people. And so I think, 119 00:07:14,876 --> 00:07:18,716 Speaker 1: I think reframing our relationship with our inner monologue chatter 120 00:07:19,276 --> 00:07:22,076 Speaker 1: it can be in the long term a productive way 121 00:07:22,076 --> 00:07:24,836 Speaker 1: of actually solving some of the challenges that accompany the 122 00:07:24,876 --> 00:07:28,476 Speaker 1: inner voice. Yeah, I totally agree. You know, I use 123 00:07:28,516 --> 00:07:33,916 Speaker 1: the title Harness our Inner Voice for the title for 124 00:07:33,956 --> 00:07:36,236 Speaker 1: the book. The subtitle I didn't I didn't say silence, 125 00:07:36,676 --> 00:07:41,036 Speaker 1: and that was a very strategic decision. A lot of 126 00:07:41,076 --> 00:07:44,356 Speaker 1: people that I speak to when we're talking about, you know, 127 00:07:44,516 --> 00:07:47,356 Speaker 1: the inner voice, run a muck, which is essentially chatter 128 00:07:47,396 --> 00:07:49,196 Speaker 1: when you're getting stuck in those thought loops that you 129 00:07:49,276 --> 00:07:51,996 Speaker 1: can't escape, and they are, for lack of a better term, 130 00:07:52,076 --> 00:07:57,116 Speaker 1: driving you nuts. Right. They're so oppressive and stifling and 131 00:07:57,636 --> 00:08:02,756 Speaker 1: really not fun. So many people ask me, Okay, what 132 00:08:02,836 --> 00:08:04,716 Speaker 1: can I do to get rid of it? I just 133 00:08:04,756 --> 00:08:06,956 Speaker 1: want to shut it up. I don't. I don't want 134 00:08:06,956 --> 00:08:08,876 Speaker 1: to have an inner voice, and I there's a story 135 00:08:09,116 --> 00:08:10,956 Speaker 1: telling the book. It's one of my favorite stories. It's 136 00:08:10,996 --> 00:08:13,956 Speaker 1: of a woman named Jill Bolt Taylor who was a 137 00:08:14,596 --> 00:08:17,756 Speaker 1: Harvard neuroanatomist working at the very top of her game, 138 00:08:18,476 --> 00:08:22,236 Speaker 1: and like so many of us, she experienced chatter from 139 00:08:22,276 --> 00:08:25,236 Speaker 1: time to time, and she thought this same thing to herself. 140 00:08:25,276 --> 00:08:28,036 Speaker 1: She would ask, how can I silence this in her voice? 141 00:08:28,676 --> 00:08:32,556 Speaker 1: And she got an answer to that question one morning 142 00:08:32,596 --> 00:08:35,916 Speaker 1: when she was exercising on a chreadmill, because she suffered 143 00:08:35,916 --> 00:08:40,636 Speaker 1: a stroke that temporarily wiped out her ability to use 144 00:08:40,716 --> 00:08:43,796 Speaker 1: language not only to communicate with other people, but also 145 00:08:44,076 --> 00:08:50,636 Speaker 1: with herselves and Initially, she described this experiences wait for it, strangely, 146 00:08:50,916 --> 00:08:55,076 Speaker 1: you fork, Now, that's remarkable to me. Right, She's just 147 00:08:55,196 --> 00:08:58,796 Speaker 1: had a massive stroke. It's targeted language centers in her brain. 148 00:08:58,996 --> 00:09:01,796 Speaker 1: She cannot speak to other people or to herself. And 149 00:09:02,116 --> 00:09:07,236 Speaker 1: what's the emotion relief because all the chatter is gone, 150 00:09:07,396 --> 00:09:10,436 Speaker 1: all that chatter that was weighing her down. But as 151 00:09:10,476 --> 00:09:14,156 Speaker 1: the days and weeks went on, she began to describe 152 00:09:14,156 --> 00:09:19,156 Speaker 1: this this experience as quite debilitating because although the chatter 153 00:09:19,316 --> 00:09:22,116 Speaker 1: is gone, so were all of the good things that 154 00:09:22,196 --> 00:09:24,676 Speaker 1: her inner voice allowed her to do, like plan for 155 00:09:24,716 --> 00:09:27,956 Speaker 1: the future and control ourselves and create stories and keep 156 00:09:28,036 --> 00:09:30,316 Speaker 1: things in mind and so and improves as a person, 157 00:09:30,356 --> 00:09:33,436 Speaker 1: by the way, like the negative chatter is productive, it's 158 00:09:33,556 --> 00:09:36,796 Speaker 1: very helpful. It's data to ourselves about how we can 159 00:09:36,836 --> 00:09:39,716 Speaker 1: become better people, all right, and take feedback in and 160 00:09:40,076 --> 00:09:42,876 Speaker 1: work at things that touches on another I think are 161 00:09:42,956 --> 00:09:48,156 Speaker 1: important reframe for listeners, which is we often strive to 162 00:09:49,156 --> 00:09:53,116 Speaker 1: lead lives free of negative emotions, but in fact, all 163 00:09:53,196 --> 00:09:57,836 Speaker 1: emotions are useful when experienced in small doses. When I 164 00:09:57,876 --> 00:10:01,476 Speaker 1: experienced a small ping of anxiety before a big presentation, 165 00:10:01,996 --> 00:10:05,116 Speaker 1: that's really really a useful response, because what it does 166 00:10:05,236 --> 00:10:08,876 Speaker 1: is it says, hey, you know, start preparing and don't 167 00:10:08,916 --> 00:10:11,236 Speaker 1: just walk in there and think you could wing it. 168 00:10:12,116 --> 00:10:14,396 Speaker 1: There have been a few occasions where I haven't experienced 169 00:10:14,516 --> 00:10:19,556 Speaker 1: any emotion before presentation. Those presentations actually didn't turn out 170 00:10:19,556 --> 00:10:21,116 Speaker 1: as well as the ones that I was a little 171 00:10:21,116 --> 00:10:23,356 Speaker 1: bit on edge four. And the same is true for 172 00:10:23,516 --> 00:10:26,996 Speaker 1: all the negative emotions we experience. What makes them useful 173 00:10:27,556 --> 00:10:29,996 Speaker 1: is that they are painful. They do draw our attention 174 00:10:30,076 --> 00:10:32,996 Speaker 1: in you just don't want to bathe in them endlessly. 175 00:10:33,396 --> 00:10:37,516 Speaker 1: That's when they become counterproductive. Yeah, So with that in mind, 176 00:10:37,556 --> 00:10:40,996 Speaker 1: let's get into the kind of the darker sides of 177 00:10:41,036 --> 00:10:44,156 Speaker 1: this ability. As we've discussed, so much of our lived 178 00:10:44,196 --> 00:10:47,196 Speaker 1: experience is the thoughts that are happening in our heads, 179 00:10:47,516 --> 00:10:51,436 Speaker 1: and so it's important for us to learn how to 180 00:10:51,476 --> 00:10:54,436 Speaker 1: better manage those thoughts, right, to better manage that monologue. 181 00:10:54,796 --> 00:10:59,236 Speaker 1: And this is especially true because another thing you point 182 00:10:59,276 --> 00:11:01,636 Speaker 1: out in your book is that our inner voice is 183 00:11:02,276 --> 00:11:05,196 Speaker 1: more predictive of our happiness than what we're actually doing. 184 00:11:05,636 --> 00:11:07,916 Speaker 1: And man, is this going to be salient for so 185 00:11:07,916 --> 00:11:11,156 Speaker 1: many people who are listening, Like I'm on the luxury 186 00:11:11,236 --> 00:11:12,956 Speaker 1: vacation I'm on the beach. I'm supposed to be having 187 00:11:12,996 --> 00:11:14,556 Speaker 1: the time of my life, and yet I'm anxious about 188 00:11:14,596 --> 00:11:16,436 Speaker 1: something that's happening back home, and my mind is not 189 00:11:16,476 --> 00:11:19,836 Speaker 1: even present and fully sabotages what's otherwise supposed to be 190 00:11:19,876 --> 00:11:25,516 Speaker 1: a great experience. When does our inner voice become harmful 191 00:11:25,676 --> 00:11:29,836 Speaker 1: and transform into what you call chatter? So it becomes 192 00:11:29,836 --> 00:11:36,236 Speaker 1: harmful when we experience something in our life that accuse 193 00:11:36,396 --> 00:11:38,916 Speaker 1: us to try to use this tool that we have 194 00:11:39,076 --> 00:11:42,516 Speaker 1: to make sense of our feelings, but the tool gets 195 00:11:42,556 --> 00:11:45,436 Speaker 1: jammed up, so something bad happens. We turn our attention 196 00:11:45,436 --> 00:11:47,036 Speaker 1: in where to try to make sense of the problem, 197 00:11:47,116 --> 00:11:49,636 Speaker 1: but we get stuck in a negative thought loop. That's 198 00:11:49,676 --> 00:11:52,516 Speaker 1: what I call chatter. You keep on trying to think 199 00:11:52,556 --> 00:11:55,676 Speaker 1: and work through the problem, but you don't make any progress. 200 00:11:55,996 --> 00:11:58,956 Speaker 1: And there are lots of different terms that scientists have 201 00:11:59,076 --> 00:12:03,276 Speaker 1: used to describe this state. If it's chatter about the past, 202 00:12:03,396 --> 00:12:05,756 Speaker 1: we tend to call that ruminating. If it's about the 203 00:12:05,836 --> 00:12:09,916 Speaker 1: future or present, we call that worrying. Sometimes we call 204 00:12:09,956 --> 00:12:14,996 Speaker 1: it perseverating. But the common idea here is you're trying 205 00:12:15,036 --> 00:12:18,196 Speaker 1: to make sense of a problem with language, but you're 206 00:12:18,236 --> 00:12:21,876 Speaker 1: not making any forward progress. It's kind of like the 207 00:12:21,996 --> 00:12:25,036 Speaker 1: visual is one of a hamster on an exercise wheel. 208 00:12:26,796 --> 00:12:29,476 Speaker 1: We fall prey to this illusion when we were actively 209 00:12:29,796 --> 00:12:32,716 Speaker 1: repeating those loops in our mind, that we are actually 210 00:12:32,756 --> 00:12:38,036 Speaker 1: making progress because just merely indulging in that topic, right, 211 00:12:38,076 --> 00:12:41,276 Speaker 1: like staying in that space. I think it fools our 212 00:12:41,316 --> 00:12:46,116 Speaker 1: brains into thinking I am in fact advancing because look 213 00:12:46,156 --> 00:12:48,556 Speaker 1: at how much airtime this topic is getting in my mind. 214 00:12:48,676 --> 00:12:52,516 Speaker 1: And then only maybe hours later, do you realize, oh crap, 215 00:12:52,556 --> 00:12:55,036 Speaker 1: I'm in exactly the same position that I was in 216 00:12:55,076 --> 00:12:57,756 Speaker 1: at the beginning. But I've been seduced by that this 217 00:12:57,876 --> 00:12:59,676 Speaker 1: feeling of oh, you know, I'm gonna be real resolved 218 00:12:59,716 --> 00:13:01,396 Speaker 1: if I just kind of keep it marinating in there. 219 00:13:01,436 --> 00:13:04,916 Speaker 1: And then without really sophisticated strategies like from cognitive behavioral 220 00:13:04,956 --> 00:13:09,916 Speaker 1: therapy and whatnot, you know, oftentimes it's not that productive. Well, 221 00:13:09,956 --> 00:13:13,836 Speaker 1: and think about how much experience you have succeeding in 222 00:13:13,876 --> 00:13:16,236 Speaker 1: the usage of this tool. Like most of the time, 223 00:13:16,796 --> 00:13:20,556 Speaker 1: this tool, this ability to use language to think analytically 224 00:13:20,556 --> 00:13:24,196 Speaker 1: about a problem, it serves you really really will. I mean, 225 00:13:24,196 --> 00:13:27,716 Speaker 1: this is undoubtedly why you have been able to achieve 226 00:13:27,756 --> 00:13:30,716 Speaker 1: the things that you have accomplished in your life, and 227 00:13:30,996 --> 00:13:32,836 Speaker 1: the same is true for so many other people. So 228 00:13:33,436 --> 00:13:37,516 Speaker 1: you've got this tool that often works, really really should 229 00:13:37,556 --> 00:13:41,596 Speaker 1: work here it's not working. I'm a I don't give up. 230 00:13:41,876 --> 00:13:44,116 Speaker 1: I'm going to keep going. And so that's when you 231 00:13:44,156 --> 00:13:47,076 Speaker 1: really need this ability to step back, if you will, 232 00:13:47,596 --> 00:13:52,956 Speaker 1: and just recognize weight this approach isn't working. Let me 233 00:13:52,956 --> 00:13:55,836 Speaker 1: shift perspective or do any number of other things to 234 00:13:55,916 --> 00:13:59,396 Speaker 1: help reconcile the situation. So you know, it's something that 235 00:13:59,436 --> 00:14:02,596 Speaker 1: we all fall victim too at times. Yeah, can you 236 00:14:02,636 --> 00:14:06,276 Speaker 1: say more about how that inner monologue can lead us 237 00:14:06,276 --> 00:14:10,196 Speaker 1: astray in these moments or what the negative consequences can be? Yeah, 238 00:14:10,276 --> 00:14:13,676 Speaker 1: happy too. So when the inner voice morphs into chatter, 239 00:14:13,956 --> 00:14:17,276 Speaker 1: it sinks us in three domains of life that I 240 00:14:17,276 --> 00:14:20,156 Speaker 1: think are three domains that we care a lot about 241 00:14:20,236 --> 00:14:22,636 Speaker 1: and really make life worth living. And that's why I 242 00:14:22,636 --> 00:14:26,796 Speaker 1: think it's such a huge problem. First, chatter consumes our 243 00:14:26,836 --> 00:14:29,716 Speaker 1: attention to the point where we have very little left 244 00:14:29,796 --> 00:14:32,636 Speaker 1: over to focus on other things. And so the example 245 00:14:32,676 --> 00:14:35,396 Speaker 1: I like to give people is to think about a 246 00:14:35,436 --> 00:14:37,676 Speaker 1: time when you're worried about something, you're ruminating, and you 247 00:14:37,716 --> 00:14:39,156 Speaker 1: sit down, you try to read a couple of pages 248 00:14:39,156 --> 00:14:41,876 Speaker 1: in a book or a magazine, and you read the pages, 249 00:14:41,916 --> 00:14:45,556 Speaker 1: you are sure, like under oath, you would swear that 250 00:14:45,636 --> 00:14:48,756 Speaker 1: the information has past your gaze, but you don't remember 251 00:14:48,916 --> 00:14:52,676 Speaker 1: anything that you have read. It is an incredibly common experience, 252 00:14:52,676 --> 00:14:56,036 Speaker 1: and the idea is very, very simple. We only have 253 00:14:56,076 --> 00:14:59,116 Speaker 1: so much attention. If all of it is being consumed 254 00:14:59,116 --> 00:15:01,556 Speaker 1: by your chatter, that means not much is left over 255 00:15:01,636 --> 00:15:04,876 Speaker 1: to do your job. Not a good thing. We also 256 00:15:04,956 --> 00:15:08,676 Speaker 1: know that chatter can undo our habits, and the way 257 00:15:08,716 --> 00:15:12,676 Speaker 1: this work is like what is a habit? A habit 258 00:15:12,756 --> 00:15:16,916 Speaker 1: is a complex set of behaviors that are strung together 259 00:15:16,996 --> 00:15:20,236 Speaker 1: through repeated practice. So when I get up on stage 260 00:15:20,276 --> 00:15:23,396 Speaker 1: to give a presentation, I've given hundreds and hundreds of talks. 261 00:15:24,116 --> 00:15:26,596 Speaker 1: I've learned to do things without thinking, like to move 262 00:15:26,636 --> 00:15:29,436 Speaker 1: my hands in particular ways and vary my vocal tone, 263 00:15:29,556 --> 00:15:32,676 Speaker 1: and smile and look at different people in the audience. 264 00:15:33,316 --> 00:15:37,116 Speaker 1: If I start to worry about what I'm doing, oh 265 00:15:37,116 --> 00:15:40,156 Speaker 1: my god, am I giving a good presentation? What happens 266 00:15:40,276 --> 00:15:43,716 Speaker 1: is I zoom in on all the individual behaviors. Am 267 00:15:43,756 --> 00:15:47,076 Speaker 1: I smiling enough? Yeah? Am I using the stage appropriate? 268 00:15:47,316 --> 00:15:51,516 Speaker 1: And once you start doing that the whole script explodes, 269 00:15:51,556 --> 00:15:53,436 Speaker 1: the behavior explodes, and you don't do do well. And 270 00:15:53,836 --> 00:15:57,076 Speaker 1: we saw this happen on the grandest stage in the Olympics, 271 00:15:57,116 --> 00:16:00,276 Speaker 1: when Simone Biles dropped out because of what she called 272 00:16:00,316 --> 00:16:04,436 Speaker 1: the twisties. The twisties are another name for chatter, sometimes 273 00:16:04,476 --> 00:16:09,596 Speaker 1: are called the yips. And if you think about Simone's situation, 274 00:16:09,756 --> 00:16:14,556 Speaker 1: I think it really highlights just how toxic this can be. 275 00:16:14,676 --> 00:16:19,476 Speaker 1: Here you have someone who is on the peak. You know, 276 00:16:19,836 --> 00:16:22,516 Speaker 1: she's at the peak of her career on the grandest stage, 277 00:16:22,636 --> 00:16:25,316 Speaker 1: and she appropriate the best in human history as well, 278 00:16:25,476 --> 00:16:28,196 Speaker 1: best in human history, and she has to drop out 279 00:16:28,276 --> 00:16:31,716 Speaker 1: appropriately because it was dangerous. And so that's what chatter 280 00:16:31,796 --> 00:16:35,396 Speaker 1: can do to us when it comes to our individual performance. 281 00:16:36,676 --> 00:16:38,956 Speaker 1: If we shift to the second domain, we know that 282 00:16:39,076 --> 00:16:42,716 Speaker 1: chatter undermines our relationships. That can create friction, and there 283 00:16:42,756 --> 00:16:45,436 Speaker 1: are a couple of ways that works too. One thing 284 00:16:45,516 --> 00:16:48,676 Speaker 1: that that chatter can do is it can push other 285 00:16:48,676 --> 00:16:51,156 Speaker 1: people who care about us away. And here the ideas, 286 00:16:51,556 --> 00:16:55,436 Speaker 1: you've got a problem and you're motivated to share it 287 00:16:55,476 --> 00:16:58,036 Speaker 1: with other people for a variety of reasons. You want 288 00:16:58,036 --> 00:17:01,116 Speaker 1: to get support. But what happens is you talk to 289 00:17:01,156 --> 00:17:03,596 Speaker 1: the other person about the problem, and then you keep 290 00:17:03,636 --> 00:17:07,076 Speaker 1: talking about it over and over and over again, and 291 00:17:07,476 --> 00:17:09,756 Speaker 1: for most of us, is only so much we can 292 00:17:09,796 --> 00:17:14,556 Speaker 1: listen to before we ourselves start to get brought down. 293 00:17:15,076 --> 00:17:17,596 Speaker 1: And so that's one of the ways that that chatter 294 00:17:17,636 --> 00:17:20,236 Speaker 1: can alienate us from others, lead us to feel socially 295 00:17:20,236 --> 00:17:25,956 Speaker 1: rejected and alone. These are not healthy states. Boy, I'm 296 00:17:25,956 --> 00:17:28,916 Speaker 1: getting I'm getting depressed just talking about this maya But 297 00:17:29,196 --> 00:17:31,836 Speaker 1: let me quickly just mention the final domain, which is 298 00:17:31,836 --> 00:17:35,356 Speaker 1: our physical health, that I think is really important to highlight. 299 00:17:36,636 --> 00:17:41,476 Speaker 1: Many people think that experience stress like stress kills. This 300 00:17:41,516 --> 00:17:44,676 Speaker 1: is a very popular idea. It turns out that is 301 00:17:44,756 --> 00:17:48,596 Speaker 1: not exactly correct. What we know is that the ability 302 00:17:48,636 --> 00:17:55,316 Speaker 1: to experience a stress response is an amazingly useful biological 303 00:17:55,716 --> 00:17:59,236 Speaker 1: reaction to a confronting threat. It is really useful to 304 00:17:59,276 --> 00:18:02,356 Speaker 1: know that if we see a threat in our world, 305 00:18:02,956 --> 00:18:05,956 Speaker 1: we have a system that is designed to get us 306 00:18:05,956 --> 00:18:08,996 Speaker 1: to approach or avoid it in a split second. What 307 00:18:09,196 --> 00:18:12,636 Speaker 1: make stress toxic is when the stress response goes up 308 00:18:13,116 --> 00:18:17,556 Speaker 1: and remains chronically elevated over time, over days, over weeks. 309 00:18:17,636 --> 00:18:21,036 Speaker 1: That's what chatter does. Because we experience a threat in 310 00:18:21,076 --> 00:18:24,116 Speaker 1: our world, and then we keep replaying it in our minds, 311 00:18:24,196 --> 00:18:27,516 Speaker 1: sometimes even making it worse, and that keeps the whole 312 00:18:27,556 --> 00:18:31,676 Speaker 1: stress machinery going in ways that lead stress to predict 313 00:18:31,756 --> 00:18:35,236 Speaker 1: things like cardiovascular disease and certain forms of cancer and 314 00:18:35,316 --> 00:18:42,036 Speaker 1: other unpleasant physical states to talk about. So thinking, performing relationships, 315 00:18:42,076 --> 00:18:45,756 Speaker 1: health chatter wraps its tentacles around all of those domains, 316 00:18:45,756 --> 00:18:48,036 Speaker 1: and it's why I think it's one of the big 317 00:18:48,036 --> 00:18:51,116 Speaker 1: problems we face. I promise hope is on the way. 318 00:18:51,276 --> 00:18:54,596 Speaker 1: Don't worry. When we return, Ethan will give us some 319 00:18:54,636 --> 00:18:57,836 Speaker 1: science based strategies to help us harness our inner voice. 320 00:18:58,916 --> 00:19:08,676 Speaker 1: We'll be right back with a slight change of plans. Okay, 321 00:19:08,756 --> 00:19:12,956 Speaker 1: so we need some hope, Ethan. You've got to help 322 00:19:12,996 --> 00:19:14,996 Speaker 1: us out here, all right. I'd love to do a 323 00:19:14,996 --> 00:19:17,156 Speaker 1: deep dive in some of the strategies we can use 324 00:19:17,236 --> 00:19:20,556 Speaker 1: for better managing our chatter. Yeah, So, just to give 325 00:19:20,876 --> 00:19:23,756 Speaker 1: give everyone a framework for thinking about these tools and 326 00:19:23,836 --> 00:19:27,276 Speaker 1: also being hopeful for managing their chatter. I want to 327 00:19:27,316 --> 00:19:30,156 Speaker 1: be super clear, there are lots and lots of tools 328 00:19:30,156 --> 00:19:33,076 Speaker 1: that exist for managing our chatter, and so like when 329 00:19:33,116 --> 00:19:36,316 Speaker 1: I think about the potential that is out there, there 330 00:19:36,396 --> 00:19:39,556 Speaker 1: is a lot of it. So where do you find 331 00:19:39,596 --> 00:19:41,316 Speaker 1: these tools you can You could think of them as 332 00:19:41,356 --> 00:19:44,676 Speaker 1: falling into three different domains or buckets. Things you could 333 00:19:44,676 --> 00:19:48,316 Speaker 1: do on your own, relationship tools ways of talking or 334 00:19:48,356 --> 00:19:50,276 Speaker 1: interacting with other people that can be helpful, and then 335 00:19:50,676 --> 00:19:53,276 Speaker 1: what I call environmental or physical tools out there in 336 00:19:53,276 --> 00:19:55,956 Speaker 1: the world. If we start with the first category, things 337 00:19:55,956 --> 00:19:58,196 Speaker 1: you could do on your own, one of the things 338 00:19:58,196 --> 00:20:00,596 Speaker 1: we know about chatter is it zooms us in on 339 00:20:00,596 --> 00:20:04,196 Speaker 1: our problems. We get stuck thinking in a very narrow 340 00:20:04,356 --> 00:20:08,916 Speaker 1: way about only this issue, right, We're not thinking about 341 00:20:08,916 --> 00:20:11,556 Speaker 1: the bigger picture, all alternative ways of making sense of 342 00:20:11,596 --> 00:20:15,836 Speaker 1: that circumstance. And what we've learned over the years is 343 00:20:15,876 --> 00:20:19,556 Speaker 1: that being able to step back, just take a little 344 00:20:19,596 --> 00:20:22,556 Speaker 1: step back in your mind, get some psychological distance from 345 00:20:22,596 --> 00:20:26,316 Speaker 1: your problems, can be really useful for broadening our perspective 346 00:20:26,756 --> 00:20:31,156 Speaker 1: and helping us work through the situation more objectively. One 347 00:20:31,196 --> 00:20:37,596 Speaker 1: of the findings that my colleagues and I found several 348 00:20:37,636 --> 00:20:39,756 Speaker 1: years ago that I always come back to is this 349 00:20:40,836 --> 00:20:44,516 Speaker 1: we are much much better at giving advice to other 350 00:20:44,516 --> 00:20:47,276 Speaker 1: people than we are following our own advice. I find 351 00:20:47,316 --> 00:20:50,716 Speaker 1: this really remarkable. You know a friend or a loved 352 00:20:50,716 --> 00:20:53,236 Speaker 1: one who is struggling with the same problem that you 353 00:20:53,356 --> 00:20:57,316 Speaker 1: might have experienced at some point when they come to them. Sorry, sorry, 354 00:20:57,356 --> 00:20:59,316 Speaker 1: sorry interrupted. I just want to clarify because I think, 355 00:21:00,316 --> 00:21:02,996 Speaker 1: is it about we're better at giving advice to other 356 00:21:02,996 --> 00:21:04,796 Speaker 1: people than following our own, or we're better at giving 357 00:21:04,796 --> 00:21:09,716 Speaker 1: advice to others than we are at giving advice to ourselves. Well, 358 00:21:10,276 --> 00:21:13,356 Speaker 1: I would say giving advice to others, we're better doing 359 00:21:13,396 --> 00:21:17,676 Speaker 1: that than following our own advice. Okay, because it also 360 00:21:17,716 --> 00:21:20,396 Speaker 1: seems like we sometimes give ourselves bad advice as well 361 00:21:20,436 --> 00:21:23,276 Speaker 1: when it's the first person thing, because emotions cloud our judgments. Well, 362 00:21:23,316 --> 00:21:26,076 Speaker 1: you know that, I would say it's probably both actually, 363 00:21:26,356 --> 00:21:31,116 Speaker 1: so we give better, we give ourselves often poorer advice, 364 00:21:31,356 --> 00:21:35,316 Speaker 1: and we have trouble following the more effective pieces when 365 00:21:35,436 --> 00:21:38,156 Speaker 1: we when we think about them. And it's a pretty 366 00:21:38,276 --> 00:21:42,196 Speaker 1: pretty pervasive phenomenon. And what we've learned is that there 367 00:21:42,236 --> 00:21:46,716 Speaker 1: are lots of different psychological tools people can use to 368 00:21:46,876 --> 00:21:49,116 Speaker 1: shift their perspective and get them to think about their 369 00:21:49,156 --> 00:21:52,276 Speaker 1: problems like they were weighing in on someone else's problems. 370 00:21:52,276 --> 00:21:55,796 Speaker 1: And when you do that, you often find less chatter, 371 00:21:56,356 --> 00:22:00,636 Speaker 1: more objective thinking. What we might even call wiser reasoning 372 00:22:00,796 --> 00:22:04,036 Speaker 1: about about issues that we're facing. I'll tell you about 373 00:22:04,356 --> 00:22:07,676 Speaker 1: two of my favorites, which also happen to be two 374 00:22:07,796 --> 00:22:11,476 Speaker 1: tools that I use myself if I experience shadow. They're 375 00:22:11,516 --> 00:22:15,316 Speaker 1: my first lines of defense. I love it. The first 376 00:22:15,316 --> 00:22:20,636 Speaker 1: one is maybe counterintuitive to folks. What it involves doing 377 00:22:21,156 --> 00:22:25,316 Speaker 1: is trying to coach yourself through a problem using your 378 00:22:25,316 --> 00:22:28,476 Speaker 1: own name or the second person pronoun you. So, if 379 00:22:28,516 --> 00:22:33,916 Speaker 1: I'm really upset about something and spinning alread ethan, here's 380 00:22:33,956 --> 00:22:35,396 Speaker 1: what you're going to do. Here's how you're going to 381 00:22:35,396 --> 00:22:40,036 Speaker 1: manage the situation. I'm basically talking to myself like I 382 00:22:40,076 --> 00:22:43,716 Speaker 1: would speak to another person, right, the second person pronoun 383 00:22:43,716 --> 00:22:45,836 Speaker 1: on you. This is a part of speech that we 384 00:22:45,956 --> 00:22:49,876 Speaker 1: almost exclusively use when we think about and refer to 385 00:22:49,916 --> 00:22:53,636 Speaker 1: other people. That shifts your perspective. It puts you into 386 00:22:53,676 --> 00:22:56,276 Speaker 1: this different mode of thinking about your problems. It's like 387 00:22:56,276 --> 00:22:58,836 Speaker 1: you're giving advice to your best friend, and when you're 388 00:22:58,916 --> 00:23:02,076 Speaker 1: in that in that mode of advice giving, you come 389 00:23:02,156 --> 00:23:05,196 Speaker 1: up with much better solutions to your problems. So that's 390 00:23:05,236 --> 00:23:08,716 Speaker 1: a really simple thing that people can do to switch 391 00:23:08,716 --> 00:23:10,876 Speaker 1: your factives. And that's the first thing that I'll do. 392 00:23:11,716 --> 00:23:14,876 Speaker 1: Another distancing tool that is really easy and works for 393 00:23:14,956 --> 00:23:19,036 Speaker 1: many situations is something that we call temporal distancing, or 394 00:23:19,796 --> 00:23:23,396 Speaker 1: thinking about how you're going to feel about something that's 395 00:23:23,436 --> 00:23:25,156 Speaker 1: causing you chatter right now? How are you going to 396 00:23:25,196 --> 00:23:28,076 Speaker 1: feel about this a week from now, or a month 397 00:23:28,116 --> 00:23:30,356 Speaker 1: from now, or a year from now. Right you could 398 00:23:30,396 --> 00:23:32,196 Speaker 1: You could stretch out the time window as much as 399 00:23:32,236 --> 00:23:36,396 Speaker 1: you want. What engaging in that in that little mental 400 00:23:36,436 --> 00:23:39,676 Speaker 1: time travel exercise does for us is it often makes 401 00:23:39,716 --> 00:23:42,796 Speaker 1: clear that whatever we're dealing with, as awful as it is, 402 00:23:43,676 --> 00:23:47,116 Speaker 1: it will eventually fade, because most of the trials and 403 00:23:47,156 --> 00:23:50,996 Speaker 1: tribulations we experienced do eventually fade with time, and that 404 00:23:51,036 --> 00:23:54,756 Speaker 1: gives us hope, which is really useful for managing chatter. 405 00:23:54,916 --> 00:23:56,636 Speaker 1: This is actually what I do when I wake up 406 00:23:56,836 --> 00:24:01,516 Speaker 1: on occasion at two am and gripp it, Oh my god, 407 00:24:01,516 --> 00:24:03,316 Speaker 1: why did I send that email? And what are they 408 00:24:03,356 --> 00:24:05,436 Speaker 1: going to think? Did they read? So, I will just 409 00:24:05,476 --> 00:24:09,076 Speaker 1: remind myself Ethan, you're going to feel better about this 410 00:24:09,196 --> 00:24:12,116 Speaker 1: in six hours. I'm hearing you say that, and I'm 411 00:24:12,116 --> 00:24:15,036 Speaker 1: thinking to myself that, in my most anxious moments, if 412 00:24:15,036 --> 00:24:17,116 Speaker 1: you had asked me, how are you going to feel 413 00:24:17,156 --> 00:24:20,476 Speaker 1: about this in six months or five years or ten years, 414 00:24:20,556 --> 00:24:22,956 Speaker 1: I would have said, I'm going to feel exactly the 415 00:24:23,036 --> 00:24:25,836 Speaker 1: same damn way, ethan. And so what's occurring to me 416 00:24:25,916 --> 00:24:28,636 Speaker 1: in this moment is that potentially another helpful thought experiment 417 00:24:29,316 --> 00:24:32,796 Speaker 1: is to think about past experiences where we felt a 418 00:24:32,796 --> 00:24:35,676 Speaker 1: certain way and we're absolutely convinced that that was going 419 00:24:35,676 --> 00:24:39,556 Speaker 1: to be a immutable state of the world, but looking back, 420 00:24:39,596 --> 00:24:41,596 Speaker 1: we now know we no longer feel that same way 421 00:24:41,596 --> 00:24:45,436 Speaker 1: about it today. Well you got me before, I could 422 00:24:45,436 --> 00:24:48,356 Speaker 1: do mental time travel the Martnie mcflyway in the past 423 00:24:49,476 --> 00:24:51,996 Speaker 1: completely agree. Right. So that's the second piece of it, 424 00:24:52,036 --> 00:24:54,716 Speaker 1: which is so if you think about COVID as a 425 00:24:55,036 --> 00:24:59,116 Speaker 1: great example of this, right, So COVID things are on 426 00:24:59,156 --> 00:25:01,036 Speaker 1: the whole, I think, getting better, but you know, we 427 00:25:01,036 --> 00:25:02,676 Speaker 1: don't know when the end is going to happen, So 428 00:25:02,956 --> 00:25:06,716 Speaker 1: going into the future is somewhat murky. So what we 429 00:25:06,716 --> 00:25:08,836 Speaker 1: can also do, exactly as you're describing, is we can 430 00:25:08,876 --> 00:25:11,036 Speaker 1: p into the past. And this is what I do. 431 00:25:11,116 --> 00:25:12,956 Speaker 1: This is how I use mental time travel for dealing 432 00:25:12,956 --> 00:25:16,516 Speaker 1: with COVID. I'll think about the Spanish flu pandemic of 433 00:25:16,636 --> 00:25:20,436 Speaker 1: nineteen I think it was nineteen eighteen, that was really 434 00:25:20,476 --> 00:25:23,596 Speaker 1: bad and we got through it. Sometimes though, that doesn't 435 00:25:23,596 --> 00:25:25,076 Speaker 1: even take the edge off. So then I'll go back 436 00:25:25,116 --> 00:25:28,556 Speaker 1: further in time. I'll think about the bubonic plague that 437 00:25:28,796 --> 00:25:32,156 Speaker 1: decimated Europe right like, that was much much worse than this, 438 00:25:32,556 --> 00:25:35,036 Speaker 1: went on for a really long but we got through it. 439 00:25:35,076 --> 00:25:40,036 Speaker 1: We are still standing. So that shows you the flexibility 440 00:25:40,156 --> 00:25:44,716 Speaker 1: through which you can use mental time travel to help yourself. Yeah, 441 00:25:44,836 --> 00:25:47,756 Speaker 1: I'm just remembering how there was a thing that I 442 00:25:47,796 --> 00:25:50,516 Speaker 1: was worrying about in my early twenties, and I was 443 00:25:51,196 --> 00:25:53,596 Speaker 1: imposing a lot of negativity of my brother, who was 444 00:25:53,596 --> 00:25:56,836 Speaker 1: on the receiving end of all this anxiety to your 445 00:25:56,836 --> 00:26:00,756 Speaker 1: earlier point, and I remember him saying, I promise you, 446 00:26:00,876 --> 00:26:02,556 Speaker 1: this is not going to be a topic you're worried 447 00:26:02,556 --> 00:26:05,196 Speaker 1: about in ten years. And I was absolutely resolute in 448 00:26:05,196 --> 00:26:07,036 Speaker 1: my convictions that it was going to be something that 449 00:26:07,076 --> 00:26:10,836 Speaker 1: I continue to worry about. And you know, older brother, 450 00:26:10,956 --> 00:26:13,636 Speaker 1: wiser than me, he's right. I no longer i'm worried 451 00:26:13,636 --> 00:26:16,876 Speaker 1: about this issue. And I keep that in my mind 452 00:26:16,956 --> 00:26:21,796 Speaker 1: often as a personal anecdote of how I engaged in 453 00:26:21,876 --> 00:26:25,396 Speaker 1: bad cognitive forecasting. I was wrong about myself and my 454 00:26:25,436 --> 00:26:27,596 Speaker 1: own ability to be able to move on from certain 455 00:26:27,676 --> 00:26:31,076 Speaker 1: challenges or anxieties, and I think it's helpful, potentially helpful 456 00:26:31,116 --> 00:26:33,836 Speaker 1: for listeners to identify, you know, there's the Spanish flu, 457 00:26:33,956 --> 00:26:36,196 Speaker 1: which is like the global thing, but you know, we 458 00:26:36,236 --> 00:26:40,076 Speaker 1: all have some element of narcissism in us that leads 459 00:26:40,156 --> 00:26:42,596 Speaker 1: us to want to know that actually narcisism is the 460 00:26:42,636 --> 00:26:45,636 Speaker 1: wrong word here. I think we can feel sometimes like 461 00:26:46,476 --> 00:26:48,916 Speaker 1: society might be able to deal with this, but I 462 00:26:49,116 --> 00:26:51,676 Speaker 1: maya won't be able to because I'm not as cognitively 463 00:26:51,716 --> 00:26:53,196 Speaker 1: strong as other people. And so I think it can 464 00:26:53,236 --> 00:26:56,796 Speaker 1: be helpful to just find even one instance, one case 465 00:26:56,836 --> 00:27:00,196 Speaker 1: study from your own life where you did actually exit 466 00:27:00,436 --> 00:27:03,996 Speaker 1: a state of mental chatter successfully and think differently about 467 00:27:03,996 --> 00:27:05,996 Speaker 1: it so that you can hold onto because it helps 468 00:27:05,996 --> 00:27:07,636 Speaker 1: me in in present day moments where I'm like, no, 469 00:27:07,636 --> 00:27:09,356 Speaker 1: I'm still gonna be worried about this thing now in 470 00:27:09,396 --> 00:27:11,596 Speaker 1: ten years, and I'm like, ah, you're wrong about this, 471 00:27:11,636 --> 00:27:16,836 Speaker 1: at least once you've actually touched on something that is. 472 00:27:16,876 --> 00:27:19,636 Speaker 1: I think another message of hope for listeners, which is 473 00:27:20,236 --> 00:27:21,916 Speaker 1: there's a lot of research which shows that as we 474 00:27:21,956 --> 00:27:26,156 Speaker 1: get older, we actually get happier barring negative health conditions. 475 00:27:26,196 --> 00:27:28,476 Speaker 1: And one of the explanations for why that happens is 476 00:27:28,996 --> 00:27:31,916 Speaker 1: we're learning how to regulate ourselves better. And part of 477 00:27:31,956 --> 00:27:34,956 Speaker 1: how that works is we're learning from our experiences. And 478 00:27:34,956 --> 00:27:37,236 Speaker 1: I think this is exactly what you've described. When you're younger, 479 00:27:38,036 --> 00:27:41,596 Speaker 1: you don't have the same quantity of experiences. You don't 480 00:27:41,756 --> 00:27:44,196 Speaker 1: know that you're not going to be worried about this 481 00:27:44,316 --> 00:27:47,396 Speaker 1: ten years later because you may not have been around 482 00:27:47,396 --> 00:27:49,956 Speaker 1: for that long. And so I think we accrue that 483 00:27:50,076 --> 00:27:54,716 Speaker 1: wisdom with age. And what's exciting about some of these 484 00:27:54,716 --> 00:27:58,116 Speaker 1: tools is they have the potential to give us that 485 00:27:58,276 --> 00:28:03,836 Speaker 1: insight without having to wait to be forty sixty, seventy 486 00:28:03,916 --> 00:28:06,356 Speaker 1: years old, right, So we can have the insight that, oh, wait, 487 00:28:06,396 --> 00:28:09,476 Speaker 1: it will get better with time without having to, you know, 488 00:28:09,556 --> 00:28:11,756 Speaker 1: just wait the whole stretch of time for that to happen. 489 00:28:12,796 --> 00:28:15,876 Speaker 1: So it's a really valuable exercise for folks to think about. 490 00:28:18,036 --> 00:28:20,636 Speaker 1: I love this concept of what you call the universal you. 491 00:28:21,276 --> 00:28:24,316 Speaker 1: This is related to the idea of referring to ourselves 492 00:28:24,476 --> 00:28:26,756 Speaker 1: in the third person, but it's slightly different in terms 493 00:28:26,756 --> 00:28:29,756 Speaker 1: of how it's implemented. So can you just share more 494 00:28:29,756 --> 00:28:33,476 Speaker 1: about the universal you? Yeah? I love this research. What 495 00:28:33,516 --> 00:28:37,076 Speaker 1: we noticed is that sometimes when people are trying to 496 00:28:37,756 --> 00:28:41,276 Speaker 1: make sense of really difficult, chatter provoking situations in their life, 497 00:28:41,316 --> 00:28:45,036 Speaker 1: they do something that is very odd linguistically if you 498 00:28:45,116 --> 00:28:48,676 Speaker 1: actually stop and think about it. They talk about their 499 00:28:48,676 --> 00:28:52,916 Speaker 1: own experiences using the word you, but not to refer 500 00:28:52,956 --> 00:28:55,756 Speaker 1: to another person, but to refer to the world in general. 501 00:28:55,836 --> 00:28:59,636 Speaker 1: So let me give you a concrete example. Cheryl Sandbergs, 502 00:28:59,836 --> 00:29:04,196 Speaker 1: as many listeners know, tragically lost her husband while they 503 00:29:04,196 --> 00:29:07,556 Speaker 1: were on vacation several years ago, and she went in mourning. 504 00:29:07,716 --> 00:29:10,956 Speaker 1: And when she came out of mourning several weeks later 505 00:29:10,996 --> 00:29:15,236 Speaker 1: after the loss, she wrote a really emotional post on 506 00:29:15,236 --> 00:29:17,076 Speaker 1: her Facebook page on which she described what she was 507 00:29:17,116 --> 00:29:19,836 Speaker 1: going through, and she said something to the effect of, 508 00:29:20,636 --> 00:29:23,596 Speaker 1: when you lose someone you love, you just don't know 509 00:29:23,636 --> 00:29:26,276 Speaker 1: what to do. Your heart jumps out from your skin. 510 00:29:26,676 --> 00:29:31,556 Speaker 1: The idea she was talking about her own deeply personal 511 00:29:31,596 --> 00:29:37,516 Speaker 1: experience using a word you that is the verbal equivalent 512 00:29:37,956 --> 00:29:41,756 Speaker 1: of talking about the world in general. She's essentially saying, 513 00:29:42,396 --> 00:29:46,436 Speaker 1: when anyone loses their husband, anyone would be devastated, right. 514 00:29:46,636 --> 00:29:48,916 Speaker 1: And what that does for us is it gives us 515 00:29:48,916 --> 00:29:52,196 Speaker 1: a little bit of distance from our problems, right because 516 00:29:52,196 --> 00:29:55,196 Speaker 1: it's saying it's not just me, this is anyone who's 517 00:29:55,236 --> 00:29:57,996 Speaker 1: dealing with it. And what we've learned through lots of 518 00:29:58,396 --> 00:30:01,356 Speaker 1: science is that this can be an effective tool for 519 00:30:01,396 --> 00:30:05,356 Speaker 1: helping people make meaning out of negative experiences. It helps 520 00:30:05,356 --> 00:30:08,196 Speaker 1: them normalize what they're going through, get some space from 521 00:30:08,196 --> 00:30:11,916 Speaker 1: their experience. And it also does something that I just 522 00:30:11,956 --> 00:30:16,676 Speaker 1: find so cool. It draws other people into our world. 523 00:30:17,236 --> 00:30:22,916 Speaker 1: Because if I'm saying, anyone and everyone would experience, guess what, you, 524 00:30:23,076 --> 00:30:26,716 Speaker 1: the person I'm speaking to, you are part of anyone 525 00:30:26,756 --> 00:30:30,476 Speaker 1: and everyone. So it enhances the resonance that people have, 526 00:30:30,916 --> 00:30:34,396 Speaker 1: people who are listening with our ideas, and as really 527 00:30:34,436 --> 00:30:37,396 Speaker 1: a useful tool in all of those ways. Oh I 528 00:30:37,476 --> 00:30:41,396 Speaker 1: love that. Yeah, I love how inclusive the language is. 529 00:30:41,876 --> 00:30:46,236 Speaker 1: You're participating with the person who's in distress, let's say, 530 00:30:46,276 --> 00:30:48,436 Speaker 1: because you can empathize with them, and you're also like, hey, 531 00:30:48,476 --> 00:30:51,156 Speaker 1: I probably have a few lessons I can learn from this, 532 00:30:51,356 --> 00:30:53,676 Speaker 1: because it might just be a matter of time before 533 00:30:53,716 --> 00:30:57,116 Speaker 1: a similar situation hits my life or strikes me totally. 534 00:30:58,076 --> 00:31:00,716 Speaker 1: So I think that leads to your next kind of 535 00:31:00,716 --> 00:31:05,916 Speaker 1: pillar right of strategies, and that is around relationships and 536 00:31:06,316 --> 00:31:09,396 Speaker 1: how we can engage with others when we're in the 537 00:31:09,396 --> 00:31:13,116 Speaker 1: middle of the angst of mental chatter. Yeah, so other 538 00:31:13,276 --> 00:31:17,916 Speaker 1: people are an incredible potential tool that we have at 539 00:31:17,956 --> 00:31:20,596 Speaker 1: our disposal for helping us manage our chatter. But they 540 00:31:20,636 --> 00:31:23,196 Speaker 1: can also be a huge liability. And this is why 541 00:31:23,556 --> 00:31:26,636 Speaker 1: I really like talking about the science that governs how 542 00:31:26,676 --> 00:31:29,516 Speaker 1: all this works, because what we know about chatter is 543 00:31:29,556 --> 00:31:32,596 Speaker 1: that with a few exceptions, you know, if you're experiencing 544 00:31:32,676 --> 00:31:36,356 Speaker 1: chatter about shame or certain forms of trauma, you're not 545 00:31:36,396 --> 00:31:38,716 Speaker 1: going to be that motivated usually to talk about with 546 00:31:38,716 --> 00:31:41,156 Speaker 1: other people. But for all the other kinds of chatter 547 00:31:41,196 --> 00:31:44,796 Speaker 1: that we experience, chatter about anger and anxiety and depression, 548 00:31:45,196 --> 00:31:48,836 Speaker 1: we're often highly motivated to talk to other people about it. 549 00:31:49,196 --> 00:31:52,916 Speaker 1: But many people think that the route to get in 550 00:31:52,996 --> 00:31:55,996 Speaker 1: good support from other people is to just find someone 551 00:31:56,076 --> 00:32:00,116 Speaker 1: to vent our emotions, to just let it out express onload. 552 00:32:00,436 --> 00:32:02,476 Speaker 1: And there's been a lot of research on venting over 553 00:32:02,516 --> 00:32:05,036 Speaker 1: the years, and what we know is that, on the 554 00:32:05,036 --> 00:32:09,676 Speaker 1: one hand, venting can be useful for strengthening the friendship 555 00:32:09,676 --> 00:32:13,236 Speaker 1: bonds between two individuals. It feels good to know that 556 00:32:13,236 --> 00:32:16,076 Speaker 1: there's someone out there who is willing to take the 557 00:32:16,156 --> 00:32:19,156 Speaker 1: time to listen to us and spend time learning about 558 00:32:19,156 --> 00:32:22,596 Speaker 1: our lives. But if all you do is vent about 559 00:32:22,636 --> 00:32:26,716 Speaker 1: a problem, it just keeps the fire burning inside because 560 00:32:26,756 --> 00:32:30,796 Speaker 1: you're just rehearsing all of the things that are driving 561 00:32:30,796 --> 00:32:33,476 Speaker 1: you nuts. The key to getting good support for our 562 00:32:33,556 --> 00:32:38,596 Speaker 1: chatter involves doing two things. Finding a person who will 563 00:32:38,596 --> 00:32:41,156 Speaker 1: take the time to hear you out, to learn about 564 00:32:41,196 --> 00:32:44,796 Speaker 1: your situation, to empathize, but at a certain point in 565 00:32:44,836 --> 00:32:50,676 Speaker 1: the conversation they start trying to help you broaden your perspective. 566 00:32:51,196 --> 00:32:53,636 Speaker 1: Right to do what we just talked about. We're capable 567 00:32:53,676 --> 00:32:55,596 Speaker 1: of doing it on our own broadening our perspective, but 568 00:32:55,596 --> 00:32:59,316 Speaker 1: other people are often in a prime position to help 569 00:32:59,396 --> 00:33:02,196 Speaker 1: us see that bigger picture because the problems not happening 570 00:33:02,196 --> 00:33:05,516 Speaker 1: to them. That's the formula for getting good chatter support. 571 00:33:05,596 --> 00:33:10,556 Speaker 1: Someone who listens, connects, but then helps broaden. Now, there 572 00:33:10,676 --> 00:33:14,516 Speaker 1: is one critically important caveat to this whole equation, which 573 00:33:14,596 --> 00:33:18,156 Speaker 1: is there is an art to doing this well. And 574 00:33:18,236 --> 00:33:19,996 Speaker 1: the reason I say there's an art to doing this 575 00:33:20,076 --> 00:33:24,516 Speaker 1: well is depending on the person in the situation, it's 576 00:33:24,556 --> 00:33:29,556 Speaker 1: not always clear when to transition from just listening to 577 00:33:29,556 --> 00:33:33,116 Speaker 1: to start providing advice and So sometimes sometimes my wife 578 00:33:33,116 --> 00:33:36,116 Speaker 1: will come to me with a problem and you know, 579 00:33:36,196 --> 00:33:42,036 Speaker 1: she'll start unloading and I'm there, I'm receptive, I'm empathic, 580 00:33:42,036 --> 00:33:45,236 Speaker 1: And then a certain point this sounds off. I totally 581 00:33:45,236 --> 00:33:47,876 Speaker 1: get it. I can I have a piece of advice? 582 00:33:47,916 --> 00:33:51,476 Speaker 1: Can I offer you? And sometimes she'll just you know, 583 00:33:51,756 --> 00:33:57,556 Speaker 1: pause and say, no, I'm not done, just listen, and 584 00:33:57,596 --> 00:34:00,316 Speaker 1: then she keeps going and going, and it's okay. At 585 00:34:00,436 --> 00:34:04,996 Speaker 1: other times she'll be like, yes, please tell me, tell 586 00:34:05,036 --> 00:34:06,796 Speaker 1: me what to do. That's why I'm talking. So you 587 00:34:06,836 --> 00:34:10,196 Speaker 1: want to be gentle as you as you feel that out. 588 00:34:10,316 --> 00:34:13,276 Speaker 1: That is the art involved in all of this. Yeah. No, 589 00:34:13,396 --> 00:34:17,516 Speaker 1: I relish this part of your book because I think 590 00:34:17,516 --> 00:34:21,916 Speaker 1: we are living in a time where everyone is being 591 00:34:22,036 --> 00:34:26,356 Speaker 1: encouraged to vocalize all of the things that are happening 592 00:34:26,356 --> 00:34:28,436 Speaker 1: in their minds. Right, it's like, oh, that's that's the 593 00:34:28,476 --> 00:34:32,436 Speaker 1: definition of vulnerability, you know, that's the but pointing out 594 00:34:32,556 --> 00:34:36,236 Speaker 1: that it can be counterproductive, and pointing out that when 595 00:34:36,316 --> 00:34:38,996 Speaker 1: you come to someone and you're you're venting to them, 596 00:34:39,276 --> 00:34:41,196 Speaker 1: and you know, you presume in the situation the person 597 00:34:41,236 --> 00:34:44,356 Speaker 1: cares about you, they will be more focused on satisfying 598 00:34:44,476 --> 00:34:48,516 Speaker 1: your emotional needs first, and your cognitive needs second. Right, 599 00:34:48,556 --> 00:34:52,596 Speaker 1: the practical solutions side of things that will actually lead 600 00:34:52,636 --> 00:34:56,956 Speaker 1: to long term growth and mental progress. You know, you 601 00:34:56,996 --> 00:34:59,316 Speaker 1: and I are familiar with cognitive behavioral therapy and some 602 00:34:59,316 --> 00:35:00,996 Speaker 1: of the techniques, but I want to give some color 603 00:35:01,316 --> 00:35:03,796 Speaker 1: to what it means to go from emotional We all 604 00:35:03,796 --> 00:35:06,276 Speaker 1: know what emotional mode feels like. That is very intuitive. 605 00:35:06,596 --> 00:35:11,316 Speaker 1: What does cognitive mode feel like. Cognitive mode is broadening 606 00:35:11,316 --> 00:35:14,236 Speaker 1: your perspective. Let's put this in context. Let's think about 607 00:35:14,236 --> 00:35:20,716 Speaker 1: the bigger picture. Cognitive mode is sharing information that can 608 00:35:20,796 --> 00:35:24,396 Speaker 1: be useful for helping the person deal with the problem 609 00:35:24,396 --> 00:35:27,716 Speaker 1: at hand, like instrumental information. So, hey, I was in 610 00:35:27,716 --> 00:35:31,916 Speaker 1: this situation, exactly this situation, and here's how I dealt 611 00:35:31,956 --> 00:35:36,196 Speaker 1: with it. Cognitive mode is pointing out sometimes the blind 612 00:35:36,236 --> 00:35:41,396 Speaker 1: spots that may exist that are governing people's emotion reactions. 613 00:35:41,676 --> 00:35:44,036 Speaker 1: But it is important you want to strike the balance. 614 00:35:44,116 --> 00:35:46,276 Speaker 1: Right if you just so, what are the hazards? What 615 00:35:46,356 --> 00:35:49,796 Speaker 1: if we just skipped emotion mode altogether? That often comes 616 00:35:49,836 --> 00:35:52,836 Speaker 1: across as patronizing and uncaring, and so you want to 617 00:35:52,876 --> 00:35:56,276 Speaker 1: strike that appropriate, that appropriate balance. So what I love 618 00:35:56,316 --> 00:36:01,556 Speaker 1: about this science is there's like a double whammy benefit 619 00:36:01,716 --> 00:36:04,916 Speaker 1: it provides people. On the one hand, knowing about how 620 00:36:04,956 --> 00:36:08,956 Speaker 1: this works, it allows people to be much more deliberate 621 00:36:09,236 --> 00:36:12,676 Speaker 1: about who they call when they're struggling with chatter. So 622 00:36:12,716 --> 00:36:15,756 Speaker 1: there are many people who I'm really really close to, 623 00:36:16,596 --> 00:36:18,636 Speaker 1: I'm related to. Some of them, I don't call them 624 00:36:18,636 --> 00:36:21,876 Speaker 1: about my chatter. There's no ill intention on their part, 625 00:36:21,916 --> 00:36:25,116 Speaker 1: but they're just not skilled at helping me shift from 626 00:36:25,156 --> 00:36:28,636 Speaker 1: emotion to cognitive mode. There are a couple of people 627 00:36:28,676 --> 00:36:30,996 Speaker 1: I know who are good at this. And you know 628 00:36:31,036 --> 00:36:34,236 Speaker 1: what I've experienced happening in my own life with this 629 00:36:34,476 --> 00:36:38,156 Speaker 1: little board that I've put together is people know when 630 00:36:38,156 --> 00:36:40,796 Speaker 1: they're on that board, and they actually value it, like 631 00:36:40,876 --> 00:36:42,916 Speaker 1: they feel privileged. Not because it's like, oh, you can 632 00:36:42,996 --> 00:36:45,876 Speaker 1: put you on the way, it's actually what it's communicating 633 00:36:46,156 --> 00:36:49,996 Speaker 1: is that I really value you as a friend and 634 00:36:50,476 --> 00:36:54,956 Speaker 1: life advisor. That's who I rely on, and it's really effective. 635 00:36:55,036 --> 00:36:59,116 Speaker 1: So that's one benefit. The other benefit is when someone 636 00:36:59,196 --> 00:37:03,636 Speaker 1: comes to me with their chatter, I've got a playbook. 637 00:37:03,676 --> 00:37:07,596 Speaker 1: I know what to do to help effectively coach them 638 00:37:07,636 --> 00:37:10,636 Speaker 1: through that situation. And so so it's useful on both 639 00:37:10,676 --> 00:37:14,356 Speaker 1: sides of the equation. Yeah, what's striking me in this 640 00:37:14,396 --> 00:37:16,756 Speaker 1: moment is that we can do a service to the 641 00:37:16,796 --> 00:37:19,996 Speaker 1: people that we choose to vent two by giving by 642 00:37:20,036 --> 00:37:22,316 Speaker 1: almost engaging in a pre commitment of sorts, which is 643 00:37:22,316 --> 00:37:25,396 Speaker 1: at the outside of the conversation, say, I'm really upset 644 00:37:25,436 --> 00:37:28,236 Speaker 1: about this situation, and I'm going to tell you all 645 00:37:28,236 --> 00:37:29,996 Speaker 1: about it, but I want you to know I really 646 00:37:30,036 --> 00:37:32,836 Speaker 1: do want some reframing strategies so I can think differently 647 00:37:32,836 --> 00:37:36,796 Speaker 1: about the situation. And this serves two benefits, right. One, 648 00:37:37,356 --> 00:37:41,036 Speaker 1: it's signaling to the person that you're engaging with, maybe 649 00:37:41,036 --> 00:37:43,916 Speaker 1: who you're training to enter that board of advisors, to 650 00:37:43,956 --> 00:37:46,636 Speaker 1: know that is appropriate at some point to make that pivot. 651 00:37:47,076 --> 00:37:49,396 Speaker 1: And before you get two into the heat of the moment, 652 00:37:49,396 --> 00:37:52,756 Speaker 1: as you're replaying the negative episode, you're mentally committing to 653 00:37:52,796 --> 00:37:54,876 Speaker 1: the fact that you do want to leave the conversation 654 00:37:55,156 --> 00:37:59,596 Speaker 1: with some degree of enlightenment about your situation in terms 655 00:37:59,596 --> 00:38:02,876 Speaker 1: of you know, bigger picture, broad contexts, maybe things that 656 00:38:02,876 --> 00:38:08,156 Speaker 1: you misinterpreted totally. All right, So let's move into the 657 00:38:08,236 --> 00:38:13,716 Speaker 1: environment and these these seemingly subtle aspects of our environment 658 00:38:13,756 --> 00:38:17,996 Speaker 1: that can actually have a profound impact on the mental chatter. Sure, 659 00:38:18,236 --> 00:38:20,876 Speaker 1: so one of the things we've learned over the years 660 00:38:20,996 --> 00:38:25,236 Speaker 1: is that nature, or are exposing ourselves to green spaces 661 00:38:25,316 --> 00:38:28,116 Speaker 1: can provide us with a tool to manage our chatter. 662 00:38:28,316 --> 00:38:31,356 Speaker 1: And I love this work and it's actually it's changed 663 00:38:31,396 --> 00:38:34,676 Speaker 1: the way I live my life. And this does not 664 00:38:34,716 --> 00:38:37,676 Speaker 1: mean I've, like, you know, become one with nature. And 665 00:38:37,716 --> 00:38:39,836 Speaker 1: for those who can't see them, Ethan's actually taking this 666 00:38:39,916 --> 00:38:43,596 Speaker 1: interview from the jungle, but it's excellent audio quality, that's right. 667 00:38:43,716 --> 00:38:48,196 Speaker 1: So the way this research has changed my life is 668 00:38:48,236 --> 00:38:51,156 Speaker 1: I actually go to work a different way each day. 669 00:38:51,196 --> 00:38:54,596 Speaker 1: I take a slightly longer walk to work, which is 670 00:38:54,716 --> 00:38:57,196 Speaker 1: a walk down a tree line path rather than a 671 00:38:57,276 --> 00:38:59,876 Speaker 1: walk down the streets of ann Arbor. And the reason 672 00:38:59,916 --> 00:39:01,556 Speaker 1: I do this is what we know about nature is 673 00:39:01,596 --> 00:39:07,716 Speaker 1: this nature provides an opportunity to restore that precious attention 674 00:39:07,756 --> 00:39:11,236 Speaker 1: we have that our chat or depletes. And the way 675 00:39:11,276 --> 00:39:13,516 Speaker 1: this works is when you're going for a walk in 676 00:39:13,556 --> 00:39:16,796 Speaker 1: a natural setting, there are all these interesting things around 677 00:39:16,876 --> 00:39:20,676 Speaker 1: us that we become fascinated by, so our attention gently 678 00:39:20,796 --> 00:39:24,836 Speaker 1: drifts on those surroundings. And when it's gently drifts and 679 00:39:24,956 --> 00:39:29,556 Speaker 1: is captured by our surroundings, that allows our attentional resources 680 00:39:29,556 --> 00:39:33,316 Speaker 1: to restore, and they often can be really useful for 681 00:39:33,396 --> 00:39:36,356 Speaker 1: managing our chatter. So that's one way it helps. The 682 00:39:36,476 --> 00:39:40,876 Speaker 1: other thing that nature does is something that I find 683 00:39:40,956 --> 00:39:46,236 Speaker 1: just beautiful, which is nature gives us the opportunity to 684 00:39:46,276 --> 00:39:50,476 Speaker 1: experience the emotion of awe. And awe is an emotion 685 00:39:50,556 --> 00:39:53,036 Speaker 1: we experience when we're in the presence of something vast 686 00:39:53,116 --> 00:39:57,796 Speaker 1: and indescribable, like a beautiful sunset, or you know. I 687 00:39:57,836 --> 00:39:59,596 Speaker 1: go for the walk in the arboretum right by my 688 00:39:59,636 --> 00:40:01,596 Speaker 1: house and I see these trees that have been here 689 00:40:01,716 --> 00:40:05,116 Speaker 1: for literally hundreds of years, and I think, how do 690 00:40:05,156 --> 00:40:08,516 Speaker 1: I even contemplate, like I'm just struggling to get through 691 00:40:08,556 --> 00:40:12,596 Speaker 1: my forty you know, pandemic and back aches, and hundreds 692 00:40:12,636 --> 00:40:16,356 Speaker 1: of years these trees have survived. That feels me with awe. 693 00:40:16,676 --> 00:40:20,436 Speaker 1: When you are contemplating something vast and indescribable, you feel 694 00:40:20,516 --> 00:40:24,516 Speaker 1: smaller by comparison, and when you feel smaller, so do 695 00:40:24,596 --> 00:40:29,076 Speaker 1: your worries and ruminations. So as this powerful experience, it 696 00:40:29,236 --> 00:40:32,676 Speaker 1: really is in some ways, it's like the ultimate perspective broadener, 697 00:40:33,036 --> 00:40:36,236 Speaker 1: the way of putting ourselves and we're a spec in 698 00:40:36,436 --> 00:40:41,236 Speaker 1: this much broader, beautiful universe that is out there. There's 699 00:40:41,276 --> 00:40:43,956 Speaker 1: so many different ways that you can get a healthy 700 00:40:43,996 --> 00:40:47,396 Speaker 1: amount of distance from your problems, and drawing on that 701 00:40:48,156 --> 00:40:52,076 Speaker 1: set of skills I think can be helpful for allowing 702 00:40:52,116 --> 00:41:00,636 Speaker 1: people to skillfully manage your chatter. Hey, thanks for listening. 703 00:41:01,236 --> 00:41:04,316 Speaker 1: On next week's episode, we'll hear from Scott Manky. When 704 00:41:04,356 --> 00:41:06,996 Speaker 1: Scott was a contestant on the game show Jeopardy, he 705 00:41:07,156 --> 00:41:10,556 Speaker 1: was surprised when the audience responded not just to his performance, 706 00:41:10,796 --> 00:41:13,396 Speaker 1: but to who he was as a person. One of 707 00:41:13,476 --> 00:41:17,076 Speaker 1: the first comments that I remember seeing was this person saying, 708 00:41:17,436 --> 00:41:21,316 Speaker 1: I really like Scott's demeanor on the show. I didn't 709 00:41:21,356 --> 00:41:25,876 Speaker 1: expect that reaction. It seemed to be like they liked 710 00:41:25,916 --> 00:41:29,116 Speaker 1: who I was, and they thought I'd seemed like a 711 00:41:29,196 --> 00:41:40,516 Speaker 1: nice person and a good, good hang or whatever. A 712 00:41:40,636 --> 00:41:43,596 Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans is created written an executive produce 713 00:41:43,676 --> 00:41:47,516 Speaker 1: by me Maya Schunker. The Slight Change family includes Tyler Green, 714 00:41:47,636 --> 00:41:51,316 Speaker 1: our senior producer, Emily Rosteck, our producer and fact checker, 715 00:41:51,796 --> 00:41:55,396 Speaker 1: Jen Guera, our senior editor, Ben Tolliday, our sound engineer, 716 00:41:55,676 --> 00:41:59,516 Speaker 1: and Neil la Belle, our executive producer. Louise Scara wrote 717 00:41:59,516 --> 00:42:02,236 Speaker 1: our theme song, and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. 718 00:42:02,956 --> 00:42:05,876 Speaker 1: A Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, 719 00:42:06,076 --> 00:42:10,196 Speaker 1: so big thanks to everyone there, including the colmer, Maggie Taylor, 720 00:42:10,516 --> 00:42:14,556 Speaker 1: Eric Sandler, Heather Faint and Carly Niggliori, and of course 721 00:42:14,796 --> 00:42:18,116 Speaker 1: a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow 722 00:42:18,156 --> 00:42:21,276 Speaker 1: A Slight Change of Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker. 723 00:42:36,836 --> 00:42:39,396 Speaker 1: I could have a person come to me and say, hey, 724 00:42:39,836 --> 00:42:42,556 Speaker 1: I experienced chatter here. What should I do? Tell me 725 00:42:42,676 --> 00:42:45,436 Speaker 1: exactly which tools to use and to what degree I 726 00:42:45,516 --> 00:42:49,996 Speaker 1: should be using them. I cannot give that prescription. You know, 727 00:42:50,116 --> 00:42:53,076 Speaker 1: the six tools that I use to manage my chatter 728 00:42:53,196 --> 00:42:56,516 Speaker 1: may be very different from the seventeen that you use, 729 00:42:57,396 --> 00:43:00,036 Speaker 1: or or the four. Okay, I see how you feel. 730 00:43:00,076 --> 00:43:04,236 Speaker 1: Even my chatter can run laps around your chatter, okay, 731 00:43:04,316 --> 00:43:05,076 Speaker 1: And I'm proud of that