1 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. One of my favorite 2 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:22,680 Speaker 1: music artists is Tom Petty Got a Rest the Soul, 3 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:25,120 Speaker 1: and one of my favorite songs that he came up 4 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 1: with years ago is called the Waiting, and in that 5 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 1: line it famously says, the waiting is the hardest part. 6 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:35,559 Speaker 1: Right now, I would say that the waiting is the 7 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:41,240 Speaker 1: most important part. Today, we're going to continue our discussion 8 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:46,880 Speaker 1: on the quadruple homicide at the University of Ottaho. I'm 9 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Body Bags. Jackie Howard, 10 00:00:56,360 --> 00:01:00,240 Speaker 1: executive producer with Nancy Grace's Crime Stories. My I my 11 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 1: good friend, my partner Jackie. We have been waiting. I 12 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:06,480 Speaker 1: think the whole country's waiting. They're sitting around there wondering 13 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 1: what in the world is going on? Where is this 14 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:12,119 Speaker 1: case going? And day by day we watched the news, 15 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:17,679 Speaker 1: We listen, we listen, and we wait, and every now 16 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:19,679 Speaker 1: and then there'll be a bit of a trickle that 17 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: comes out. Let's start with the latest news. In the 18 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:28,000 Speaker 1: search for a killer of for University of Idahoe students, 19 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:33,120 Speaker 1: police have said they are looking for a white hun 20 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:36,040 Speaker 1: day now, they have not said that they think this 21 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:41,399 Speaker 1: person is a person of interest, a suspect, or just 22 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 1: a witness. They have said that they believed the car 23 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 1: was in the vicinity at the time. So number one, 24 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 1: what forensics are they going to do to find the car? 25 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 1: And number two, why do you think they are looking 26 00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 1: for this car. I'm a professor as well, you know, 27 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 1: at the university. I teach at Jacksonville State. One thing 28 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 1: I do know is that at the beginning of every year, 29 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:08,639 Speaker 1: you know, when the kids come back from summer, summer 30 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:11,800 Speaker 1: break and whatnot, we have to go over to security. 31 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 1: I have to go in and we take our registration 32 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 1: with us for our vehicles and we hand it to them, 33 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:18,800 Speaker 1: and you know what they give us. They give us 34 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 1: a sticker. They give us a sticker that goes on 35 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 1: the inner portion of our windshield. Now, let's think about 36 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 1: the population of this location. It's roughly I think it's 37 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 1: roughly upwards of twenty Most people that are in that 38 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 1: town are going to be associated with the University of Idaho, 39 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 1: maybe not most, but a significant portion, and that means 40 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:45,240 Speaker 1: that they will be required to have parking paths on 41 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:48,799 Speaker 1: their on their car. And universities are different than than 42 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 1: other locale, so I would think that the investigators the 43 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 1: first stop that they're gonna make relative to this car 44 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 1: that they're interested in, is they're going to go to 45 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 1: the registr ration area at the university and they're gonna say, hey, 46 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 1: we want to look through the logs here. We want 47 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 1: to take a look and see if we can cross check, 48 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:12,519 Speaker 1: just in the immediate right now, to see if there 49 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 1: are any vehicles that belong to anyone on this campus, 50 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:19,920 Speaker 1: whether the staff members, faculty, or students. We want to know. 51 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:23,400 Speaker 1: We want to know, and automatically, if you can get 52 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 1: a hit with that kind of proximity, it narrows your field. Now, 53 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 1: look that this information has gone out, as you say, 54 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:34,080 Speaker 1: over the wire at this point, it's nationwide. It's worldwide 55 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 1: at this point, and I think everybody the brothers are 56 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 1: looking for a white vehicle like this. You remember when 57 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 1: of the d C sniper hit all those years ago, 58 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 1: what were they looking for? They were looking for a 59 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 1: white van where they saw everybody was looking for a 60 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 1: white van. And now the next generation is this white 61 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 1: this white fourrid or that they've got their own. The 62 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 1: other portion of this is they're gonna look through the 63 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 1: state files, through the vehicle registrations in Idaho and probably 64 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 1: Oregon and certainly Washington. There's a real close in this 65 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 1: particular geographic region. I don't know a lot of people 66 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 1: understand or because it's not a location, A lot of 67 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 1: people have been to this area up in the Panhandled 68 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 1: portion of of Idaho. There they closely associate themselves with 69 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 1: that area over in eastern eastern Washington. As a matter 70 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 1: of fact, friends mind there up there have said that 71 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:23,360 Speaker 1: the town is actually very close to Pullman, Washington, which 72 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:26,359 Speaker 1: is where Washington State University is, and it's not that 73 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 1: great a distance. So they're gonna look for vehicles that 74 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 1: are within that geographic region just to start off with. 75 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:36,040 Speaker 1: And that's that's a hefty undertaking because there are a 76 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 1: lot of these vehicles that are out there similar to 77 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:40,839 Speaker 1: this they're gonna have to go through. But they do 78 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 1: have specific year model numbers, which is kind of interesting 79 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 1: because they've identified something visually on the car that would 80 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:52,279 Speaker 1: put it within that category of vehicle. You know where 81 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:55,919 Speaker 1: it is. It's some feature on that car, and I 82 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:58,920 Speaker 1: think it's like a two year block that they're looking 83 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:03,479 Speaker 1: at that is unique to that particular model that sets 84 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:06,719 Speaker 1: it apart I'm wondering if whatever it was that keyed 85 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:10,280 Speaker 1: the investigators in on this, if it was a camera image, 86 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 1: or if it was someone that was giving them a 87 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:15,840 Speaker 1: description of verbal description of the vehicle they had seen 88 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:18,919 Speaker 1: in the area. If it's something that the investigators queued 89 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 1: in on that makes that vehicle unique. And of course, 90 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 1: when we think about forensics, one of the things we 91 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 1: always think about the Jackie you and I have talked 92 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:29,359 Speaker 1: about is the term individualization, and that's the key to 93 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:33,719 Speaker 1: all evidence and understanding evidence is the individualization of that 94 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:35,919 Speaker 1: evidence and so that you can tie back to a 95 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 1: specific item, our person, or a time or a place. 96 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:41,920 Speaker 1: So they've got the road hot right now, they're they're 97 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 1: looking for this vehicle, and I don't know what it means. 98 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:48,359 Speaker 1: My first part I think of this is to think, well, 99 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 1: maybe somebody was driving buying a vehicle, this type of 100 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 1: vehicle and they may have seen something at that time. 101 00:05:55,920 --> 00:06:01,719 Speaker 1: Or if we go back in time the day after 102 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 1: and we had those images that arose out of the 103 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:07,720 Speaker 1: scene where they were taking measurements out in that roadway, 104 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 1: of those skid marks on the road, there's that dark 105 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:14,480 Speaker 1: rubber that have been laid down. I'm I'm wondering if 106 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:18,159 Speaker 1: they're thinking that maybe that car generated that. I think 107 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 1: that that's something certainly to consider. The media certainly made 108 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 1: pay over that particular tom and if that's the case, 109 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 1: then you might have if they did a lift on 110 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 1: the rubber that was left behind that burn area on 111 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 1: the road, if they had a rubber sample, that might 112 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:37,600 Speaker 1: give an indications the manufacture of the tires. Even there's 113 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 1: a lot to consider with this vehicle and that the 114 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:42,279 Speaker 1: vehicle was involved and I'm not saying it was, but 115 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 1: if it was in fact involved in the slaughter, because 116 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 1: that's what this was, then there could very well be 117 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 1: a lot of biological evidence contained within the cabin of 118 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 1: that car. So if they find the car, they're certainly 119 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 1: going to process that just like it was a murder scene. 120 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 1: So they're going to take swabs on the inside for 121 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 1: fringer prints, look for DNA to see if possibly one 122 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 1: of the victims were in that car. Officers would be 123 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 1: looking for blood if indeed this is a suspect. But 124 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 1: if it's not a suspect and it's just they think 125 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 1: this person might have some knowledge of that area at 126 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 1: that time, will they still process the car as if 127 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 1: it were a crime scene. I think it would be 128 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 1: adviosible if they believed that vehicle was in proximity to 129 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 1: this horrific event. If they don't go ahead and document 130 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: it now and doing as thoroughly as they possibly can, 131 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 1: that's a lost moment. It truly is. You You have 132 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 1: to you know, when when you're working a death investigation, 133 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 1: you know what's our guiding principle. Guiding principle relative to 134 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 1: deaths is that every death is a homicide until proven otherwise. Well, 135 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 1: if you extend that line of logic into this vehicle, 136 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 1: you would have to think, well, there is a possibility 137 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 1: that this car might have linkage, is it worth it 138 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 1: just letting it go and not taking a look at it, 139 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 1: not examining it. Now, maybe if the owner is just 140 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 1: somebody that was passing by, they might agree to what's 141 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 1: referred to as consent search. The cops are not necessarily 142 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 1: gonna have to get a warrant owner of vehicles as sure, 143 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 1: you feel free to take a look in my car, 144 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 1: And I'll tell you this, if if that car, if 145 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:32,720 Speaker 1: the police have any indication that car might be involved, 146 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:35,200 Speaker 1: they are going to get a warrant. And when they 147 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 1: get that warrant. They're gonna take that vehicle. Hopefully this 148 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:42,520 Speaker 1: vehicle will go to a state crime lab and go 149 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 1: to an evidence garage and be properly processed. And when 150 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 1: I say properly process processed, and I'm talking about the 151 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 1: seats are gonna come out, the carpet's gonna come up, 152 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 1: and we're talking about swabbing the area. Every surface in 153 00:08:56,800 --> 00:08:59,959 Speaker 1: there is gonna be swabbed. Every square inch of that car. 154 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 1: It is going to have ultra violet light applied to 155 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 1: it to look and see if there's anything any kind 156 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 1: of biological substances on their, uh, the seats, the same thing. 157 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:11,559 Speaker 1: If they have to cut samples out, they'll cut samples out. 158 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:15,199 Speaker 1: They're gonna look beneath. Cars have kind of a subflooring 159 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 1: as well, like houses do. They'll look in that subfloor, 160 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 1: you know, the vehicle to see if anything it's soaked through. 161 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 1: The look on the backside of the carpet to see 162 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 1: if there's anything there, any kind of indication. Because if 163 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:29,080 Speaker 1: somebody had a vehicle, and and this would apply to 164 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 1: any vehicle associated with this, there might be an attempt 165 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 1: to go out and do what's referred to as a 166 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 1: deep cleaning on the vehicle, but you never get everything. 167 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:39,600 Speaker 1: You know, if you have a supersaturated area blood, for instance, 168 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 1: on the surface of carpet or on upholstery, if these 169 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 1: are not leather seats, for instance, there's high probability it 170 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 1: will leach down into that substrate. And so they'll examine 171 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:53,679 Speaker 1: everything both with the unaided eye and the aided eye, 172 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:56,320 Speaker 1: as we say, and try to take samples off of 173 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 1: everywhere because if not, it's it's going to be a 174 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 1: lost moment. They have to do it, and at this 175 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: point any information that they think clean is going to 176 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:25,080 Speaker 1: be super valuable. I was speaking with somebody in the 177 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 1: media the other day about the Idaho case. They asked me, 178 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: what is this taking so long to process? And the 179 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 1: only way I could think of to frame this so 180 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 1: that they could kind of grasp it was I told 181 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 1: them that right now, the cops are not reading a 182 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 1: first grade reader. They're reading war in peace. The volume 183 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 1: of evidence that has been collected from this scene is daunting, 184 00:10:56,080 --> 00:11:01,320 Speaker 1: and it's dense, very dense, and it's layered, and that 185 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 1: specifically what they're looking at right now. So you're telling 186 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 1: me that is the reason why it is taking so long. 187 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:13,440 Speaker 1: To get any evidence or any information back from the 188 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 1: blood that evidence that was taken, the fiber evidence that 189 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:22,679 Speaker 1: we know that they took. They covered two floors, actually 190 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:24,680 Speaker 1: three if they were doing their job, even though no 191 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:28,240 Speaker 1: one was harmed on the first floor. So you're telling me, basically, 192 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 1: there is so much evidence, astronomical numbers to go through 193 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:36,320 Speaker 1: and to be thorough, it's going to take a lot 194 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:39,560 Speaker 1: of time. That's precisely what I'm saying, Jackie. I think 195 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:45,960 Speaker 1: that any of us would rather these professionals take their time. 196 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:49,680 Speaker 1: They're not on the clock. They're not on the media's clock, 197 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 1: they're not on the public's clock. They're on their clock. 198 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 1: They're on their clock, and science dictates the movement of 199 00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 1: the clock, and there are certain things that cannot you rushed. 200 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 1: I'm constantly asked this question about why is it taking 201 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 1: this long and how long does it take? Well, there's 202 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:12,200 Speaker 1: not a specific formula that you can apply to that, 203 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:15,079 Speaker 1: because it all depends on what you're talking about. If 204 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 1: you just take the Biden let me just to paint 205 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:20,080 Speaker 1: the picture here, if you if we want to consider 206 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:21,960 Speaker 1: how you know, I use the term DNSE just a 207 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 1: second ago. If you want to take just the biological 208 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 1: evidence alone. And when I say that, I'm specifically talking 209 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 1: about blood and DNA. Yes, it is a bloody scene. 210 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:34,719 Speaker 1: I think that most people could probably agree on it 211 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:37,319 Speaker 1: even without seeing the scene. It's going to be a 212 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:41,600 Speaker 1: bloody scene because you've got foreign individuals that have sustained 213 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 1: horrible shark force injuries to their chest. Okay, and there's 214 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:47,839 Speaker 1: all kinds of things that come along with that. First off, 215 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 1: your you're burying this knife into the lungs, the heart. 216 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 1: There's not just a chance that they're going to bleed out. 217 00:12:56,280 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 1: There's a chance they're gonna aspirate, blow out, fine part 218 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:04,320 Speaker 1: of particulate, bits of blood and tissue. All of that's 219 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:07,079 Speaker 1: going to be there. Okay. Then you begin to think 220 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 1: about just print evidence alone. So many people have passed 221 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 1: through this house, and I'm not talking about police officers 222 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 1: that are working the scene. I'm talking about this has 223 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 1: been identified as a gathering spot for people off campus. 224 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:21,720 Speaker 1: People don't come to gathering spots where in latex gloves 225 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 1: it doesn't happen, Okay, So they're gonna show up and 226 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 1: if they're partying, they're holding I don't know, a plastic 227 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 1: cup with a drink in it and they're sitting that down. 228 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:35,320 Speaker 1: Maybe they're resting their hand adjacent to the drink on 229 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:38,440 Speaker 1: the counter. If it's a smooth, non poor surface, you 230 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:42,080 Speaker 1: can pick up on prints, they're they're probably overlay prints 231 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 1: where you've got people that have placed their hands there, 232 00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 1: and then some time later somebody else comes along in 233 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 1: places their hand there. You're not talking about an environment 234 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 1: where you've got essentially a pristine environment where you only 235 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:57,800 Speaker 1: have say like an elderly retired couple living there, where 236 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 1: they have no one that visits them. We're about a 237 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 1: very dynamic environment that the kids in that school knew about, 238 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 1: and that the people within the residents had friends of 239 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:10,560 Speaker 1: friends of friends that were probably visiting there and they 240 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 1: might just pop over. They might just show up spontaneously 241 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 1: and a party would erupt. Or they're gonna hang around 242 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:18,559 Speaker 1: and watch ball game together, or they're gonna dance, or 243 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 1: they're gonna study together, or do whatever it is that 244 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 1: they're doing in this apartment together. So you've got this 245 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 1: layering of just fingerprints alone. Think about how much hair 246 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 1: has been shed in this environment. Everybody that loses hair, 247 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 1: and we all lose hair. Just look at your brush. 248 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:34,200 Speaker 1: If you don't believe it that you brush your hair 249 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 1: with You look at it and you've got strands of 250 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 1: hair all in it. Well, the brush didn't necessarily pull 251 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 1: that hair. You were shedding that hair anyway. It happened 252 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 1: to be caught up in that brush. How much more 253 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 1: hair is just laying around this environment? Then you think 254 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 1: about touch DNA. You're sluffing skin cells that's all over 255 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 1: the place. What if somebody sneezes, that's all over the place. 256 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:56,280 Speaker 1: What about people that are tracking in dirt? I looked 257 00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 1: at the parking pad out and back and it's it's 258 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 1: this fine, almost powder like layer of it's not even 259 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:07,360 Speaker 1: smaller than p gravel that's covering that parking pad. Well, 260 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 1: every time somebody steps out of their vehicle, that surface 261 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 1: transfers to the soles of their shoes and they track 262 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 1: that in the house. Well, how are you going to 263 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 1: separate that out from the old versus the news? So 264 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 1: you've got any number of different types of trace evidence 265 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 1: that are going to be there, in addition to all 266 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 1: the other evidence that things that have been left behind 267 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 1: over a period of time that may have been originated 268 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 1: items that sort of thing from other locales that you 269 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:40,680 Speaker 1: can't necessarily verify their origin, their point of origin, but 270 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, it makes up the 271 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 1: totality of that scene, and it it really it causes 272 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 1: me to breathe shallow, as they say, when you begin 273 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 1: to think about how much work there is involved in that. 274 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 1: And that's the reason that I think the governor of 275 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:57,200 Speaker 1: the state of Idaho understood this. I think, I think, 276 00:15:57,200 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: if I'm not mistaken, I think he pushed forward like 277 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 1: almost a billion dollars in emergency funds just to work 278 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 1: on this case alone. They have an understanding of this, 279 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 1: they understand what they're up against, and there's a lot 280 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 1: of people burning the midnight all on it. You mentioned, Joe, 281 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 1: the blood evidence, and if we look at this realistically, 282 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 1: if we look at life and the things that we 283 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 1: do and what goes on in your world. We have 284 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 1: five women living in this house, so there's gonna be 285 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 1: a lot more biological evidence than just the blood that 286 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 1: was found. Yeah, yeah, you're right. I mean, look, we're 287 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:38,160 Speaker 1: all adults here. We have to consider this. You've got 288 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 1: five pre menopausal, obviously young ladies that are living in 289 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 1: this house. There's high probability that they're experiencing mensis on 290 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 1: a regular basis. All of that can be contained. That 291 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 1: remnant will be contained in the bathrooms. Not to mention, 292 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 1: if they have girl friends that are coming over there, 293 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 1: you have the same deposit that will be taking place. 294 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 1: If anybody is sick, for instance, they could have mucus 295 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 1: coming out of their noses. People living in close quarters 296 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:07,399 Speaker 1: with one another, this sort of thing they all pass 297 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 1: around to some kind of virus in there. They've gotten 298 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 1: running noses and they're throwing away tissues. You hear about 299 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:18,440 Speaker 1: stories where people are collecting bits of say DNA matter 300 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:21,160 Speaker 1: and that sort of thing from discarded trash. Well, they 301 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 1: have discarded trash in this place. Did you happen to 302 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:27,719 Speaker 1: look in the window those images they had just on 303 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:31,640 Speaker 1: one table alone. It looked like a typical place where 304 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 1: college kids lived. There were partially consumed food stuffs. You 305 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:38,639 Speaker 1: had cups that were there that we're not in the 306 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:40,879 Speaker 1: sink to be washed. They were just sitting on the table. 307 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 1: This is a house that had been lived in. You 308 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:47,159 Speaker 1: also can't negate the fact that you are probably going 309 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:53,200 Speaker 1: to find You absolutely would find semen in this environment. 310 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 1: If any of these young ladies are involved in a 311 00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:01,879 Speaker 1: romantic physical relationship with someone, there would be seminal deposit 312 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 1: you would think more than likely in the bedrooms, on 313 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:06,879 Speaker 1: the surfaces of the mattresses, this sort of thing, and 314 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 1: that has to be taken into account too. So you know, 315 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 1: what do you do is an investigator, You collect that 316 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 1: sample and you would want to say, for instance, run 317 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:17,439 Speaker 1: it first off to see if the individual was a 318 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 1: secretor And that's kind of one of the tests that 319 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 1: that's done. You look for any kind of if you 320 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:25,200 Speaker 1: have ejaculate, you look to see if they are actually 321 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 1: red blood cells in there to see if they did 322 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:31,719 Speaker 1: secrete that that's a specific identifier. And then semen is 323 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 1: is evidence rich relative to DNA sample, You would want 324 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 1: to see if you can develop a profile on this semen. 325 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 1: It doesn't necessarily mean that that sample is associated directly 326 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 1: with the crime, however, it is a deposit of DNA, 327 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:48,639 Speaker 1: and you have to run that test. If you find 328 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:51,640 Speaker 1: something that's unidentified, they have to run it and see 329 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:54,000 Speaker 1: if they can develop a profile off of it. Because 330 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 1: right now, as it stands, right now, and as we 331 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 1: have heard the chief police say, they don't have a suspect. 332 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 1: Now that that's all going to change. You know, at 333 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:05,440 Speaker 1: some point in time they'll say we have a person 334 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 1: of interest or we have suspect, but to this point 335 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:12,679 Speaker 1: they're not saying that. So every possibility is on the 336 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:17,360 Speaker 1: table at this point. How many tests are conducted on 337 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:21,199 Speaker 1: each piece of evidence that comes out? I mean, is 338 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 1: it just like blood you say, okay, this blood type 339 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:27,960 Speaker 1: and it's only this person, or are there other tests 340 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 1: that would be run on each piece of evidence. It's 341 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:32,639 Speaker 1: kind of like building a house. You're gonna bring the 342 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 1: tools that are necessary to build a house, all right, 343 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:38,199 Speaker 1: and and every tool has a specific purpose. So it 344 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:40,440 Speaker 1: all depends on what they're trying to achieve, what data 345 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 1: they're attempting to collect. If they're going to examine for 346 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 1: latent prints, let's just say there are certain tests that 347 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 1: they'll that they can run if they can appreciate like 348 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:53,400 Speaker 1: a latent print that's on that appears to be very fragile, 349 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:55,880 Speaker 1: and they knew that if they applied fingerprint and dust 350 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:59,119 Speaker 1: to it, they might want to superglue fume that item, 351 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:03,320 Speaker 1: for instance, Okay, and that way the image of that 352 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 1: that print will be captured in that space and it 353 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:08,359 Speaker 1: will be frozen in time. He ceases to be fragile 354 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:11,200 Speaker 1: at that point in time. The same applies with with DNA. 355 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 1: If you only have a partial strand of DNA, if 356 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 1: you're thinking about a short tanem repeat str only got 357 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:21,360 Speaker 1: a portion of the strand of DNA, there is kind 358 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 1: of a modeling that goes on with that test where 359 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 1: you're having to replicate strand to try to develop on 360 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:30,919 Speaker 1: thirteen different points along strand of the DNA, Whereas if 361 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:33,960 Speaker 1: you have a complete strand DNA, where you have intact 362 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 1: an attact molecule, then they can run this and develop 363 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:39,920 Speaker 1: a profile off of it. So it all depends on 364 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:43,640 Speaker 1: the status of the evidence that they collect, how robust 365 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:48,439 Speaker 1: it is, how intact it is, and there are we 366 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 1: could get off into hair comparisons, and there will be 367 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 1: hair at the scene, and that's something that you would 368 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:56,240 Speaker 1: do under a comparison microscope. For instance, if you have 369 00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 1: a known sample of hair, for instance, from one of 370 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:02,479 Speaker 1: the victims, and you have an unknown that's found immediately Jason, 371 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 1: they can do what's called the gross examination on the hair, 372 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:07,439 Speaker 1: and that means that they compare it by viewing it. 373 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 1: It's not you're not necessarily doing a chemical test on it. 374 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 1: You're doing a visual test on it to see if 375 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 1: these two hairs match up, if do you think that 376 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:19,399 Speaker 1: their point of origin is from the same location, And 377 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:22,159 Speaker 1: they'll try to determine that with a reasonable level of 378 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:26,719 Speaker 1: scientific validity. For every item that's there, it might require 379 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:29,959 Speaker 1: a specific type of test. And again that's that's why 380 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:33,960 Speaker 1: it's quite interesting. I think, at least from a scientific 381 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:39,399 Speaker 1: standpoint that many times the more data you have, the 382 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:42,359 Speaker 1: the more complex the case becomes. You're drowning, you're a 383 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 1: wash if you will, in evidence in evidence testing, and 384 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:48,919 Speaker 1: I can only imagine these people that are doing this 385 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 1: work sometimes feel like, you know, they are drowning an evidence. 386 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:53,199 Speaker 1: But you have to work the evidence and work your 387 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:55,440 Speaker 1: way through it because once you get those results back, 388 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:57,640 Speaker 1: that's the point in time when you push it out 389 00:21:57,680 --> 00:21:59,640 Speaker 1: to the investigators. You're not going to push it out 390 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:03,800 Speaker 1: to them prior to the tests being completed. They've said famously, 391 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 1: I think earlier this week in regards to this, they're 392 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:09,640 Speaker 1: starting to get results back from the lab. They didn't 393 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:11,920 Speaker 1: say what those results were. They didn't say with tests word, 394 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 1: they just said they're starting to get results back. Well, 395 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:16,679 Speaker 1: what does that mean? It can mean anything. We found 396 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:19,160 Speaker 1: a print. Well, that's a result. You found a print. 397 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 1: Did you identify who the print belonged to? No, but 398 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:26,199 Speaker 1: we found a print, so you know, or we didn't 399 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:29,400 Speaker 1: find We did in fact type We determined the type 400 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 1: of blood that was that the scene. Well whose blood is? 401 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:33,359 Speaker 1: And I don't know, but it is a type of blood. 402 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:36,360 Speaker 1: And so you can have results that are coming back 403 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:39,880 Speaker 1: and you're not necessarily going to have more information than 404 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:42,120 Speaker 1: you previously did that's going to lead you to who 405 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 1: perpetrated the chrome. So when do you have the evidence 406 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 1: and tests have been conducted you have said, some multiple 407 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:54,360 Speaker 1: tests on some samples. At what point is that sample 408 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:57,920 Speaker 1: destroyed so that no more tests can be conducted. It's 409 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:01,640 Speaker 1: at the point where, particularly, and you're talking about items 410 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:05,160 Speaker 1: like say, for instance, if we've got blood evidence that's 411 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:09,399 Speaker 1: presenting on a shirt, okay, our on a piece of 412 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 1: cloth for instance, where you've either got transfer or you've 413 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 1: got some kind of dynamic event that has caused a 414 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:19,440 Speaker 1: blood pattern to appear on the item itself. In order 415 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 1: to appreciate that, say per lighting, you can illuminate and 416 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:26,119 Speaker 1: you'll have to apply a particular type of agent to 417 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:29,800 Speaker 1: that shirt to make it loominess. Well, once you do that, 418 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:33,359 Speaker 1: you kind of compromise the d N A okay, that 419 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:36,400 Speaker 1: might be contained therein on the surface of that or 420 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 1: if you're collecting, say you're having to cut an item 421 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 1: up like a piece of cloth or item of clothing. 422 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:47,440 Speaker 1: Once that has been submitted, they're only going to take 423 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:53,000 Speaker 1: a portion of that of that question sample of blood. Now, 424 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:55,840 Speaker 1: it all depends on how skilled the technician is in 425 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,200 Speaker 1: getting to that question sample and how much they're going 426 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:00,920 Speaker 1: to need in order to test. Now, you can take 427 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:04,639 Speaker 1: one droplet, for instance, of question droplet and kind of 428 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:09,960 Speaker 1: trim off that area and applied for testing, and then 429 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 1: you still have some sample left. But if you're getting 430 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 1: false positives or depend upon what the test you're running is, 431 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:17,720 Speaker 1: you might have to go back to the well, if 432 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 1: you will. And the more you kind of trim this 433 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:22,520 Speaker 1: thing off, the more you're diminishing sample. And that that 434 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:26,439 Speaker 1: is truly an example of destructive testing, which you never 435 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 1: want to go down that far that far down the road, 436 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:31,400 Speaker 1: So they have to take care and what they're doing. 437 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 1: And and one of the most important things that happens 438 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:36,639 Speaker 1: with the testing of blood. If these things where you 439 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 1: have these com mingled samples is to try to determine 440 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:43,680 Speaker 1: whose blood you actually have and trying to separate those 441 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:45,920 Speaker 1: items out. So if you have a sample, you're gonna 442 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 1: look for red blood cells, you know, which to me 443 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 1: always look like microscopically that always look like gigantic sliced 444 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:55,120 Speaker 1: beats if you will when you see them. I guess 445 00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 1: it's one of the reasons on I D beats. But 446 00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 1: I'm sorry that yeah, but you have you have these 447 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 1: and depended upon the markers that are contained on that 448 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:09,959 Speaker 1: red blood cell, they can determine the type of blood 449 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 1: and that type of blood blood type, is what I'm saying. 450 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,919 Speaker 1: They know that that can be assigned a specific individual 451 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 1: and then with that you begin to develop a DNA 452 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 1: profile of the individual. But it's it's a matter of 453 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 1: getting those types separated because there's gonna be a lot 454 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:29,640 Speaker 1: of commingal samples. And that's one of the fascinating things 455 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 1: about utilizing the weapon that was used because that just 456 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 1: that action alone, if it was a single weapon, we 457 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:38,920 Speaker 1: still don't know that. All we know is that it 458 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:42,960 Speaker 1: was They have said a military style weapon, a rambo 459 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 1: style weapon, hunting style weapon k bar. They've used that 460 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:51,040 Speaker 1: term yeah, but Joe, it's been pointed out just in 461 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 1: our conversations that just because it was a large weapon 462 00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 1: does not necessarily mean that it is a military type weapon. 463 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 1: I mean, you have some pretty big butcher knives too. 464 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 1: I gotta tell you this. This is one of the 465 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:08,359 Speaker 1: issues that's really kind of confounded me because they were 466 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,399 Speaker 1: very specific about it. And what's interesting is that this 467 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 1: information wasn't sourced from the forensic pathologist. My understanding is 468 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 1: is that the genesis of that data point relative to 469 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 1: the so called military style knife. This this arose from 470 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,359 Speaker 1: the media asking questions about what the police were looking 471 00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 1: forward in stores, and according to the media, the police 472 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 1: officers were going in store saying, have you sold a 473 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:39,160 Speaker 1: military style knife? Well, police aren't qualified to determine based 474 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,920 Speaker 1: upon injuries, particularly those those injuries that have not been 475 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:45,919 Speaker 1: cleaned yet, just what they sought the scene. They're not 476 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:49,840 Speaker 1: qualified to make a diagnosis of what generated those injuries. 477 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:55,200 Speaker 1: So that leads me to to something I've been speculating about. 478 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,399 Speaker 1: I do know that with military knives. I do know 479 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:01,760 Speaker 1: that with mility very knife. One of the components that 480 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:06,399 Speaker 1: comes up with a military knife is a sheath, and 481 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 1: I've wandered all along. Well, they've made a lot of 482 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 1: hey about this style of knife. Did the perpetrator possibly 483 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:16,360 Speaker 1: drop the sheath at the scene? And I think that 484 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:19,760 Speaker 1: that's that's a legitimate question. Maybe they didn't, but I don't. 485 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:23,320 Speaker 1: I don't see how you get to military style of knife. 486 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 1: And I can talk about the knife all day long. 487 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 1: You can talk about the quality of them, composition of them. 488 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:29,639 Speaker 1: I talk to you about the components of them, what 489 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,360 Speaker 1: they look like, and what kind of injuries will leave 490 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 1: you behind, But it's just so very specific. You mentioned 491 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:39,119 Speaker 1: butcher knife. Well, yeah, and if it's a butcher knife, 492 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:42,959 Speaker 1: then you're getting off into a different area there. Because 493 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,400 Speaker 1: homes have butcher knife. Does that mean that if it's 494 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 1: a butcher knife, did the person show up armed with 495 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:50,159 Speaker 1: a butcher knife? Or is it a weapon of convenience? 496 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:51,960 Speaker 1: Is it something that they went into the kitchen and 497 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 1: found and then utilized. I think that there's a higher 498 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 1: probability with a group of young ladies that are living there, 499 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,000 Speaker 1: that are living out their alish life and going to 500 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:04,199 Speaker 1: sororities and parties and all these sorts of things. I 501 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 1: guess they could own a military knife. Maybe you know, 502 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:08,680 Speaker 1: They're free to go buy one, But I would say 503 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 1: there's a higher likelihood that they would have a butcher 504 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 1: knife in the house or something to cut food with 505 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:16,400 Speaker 1: and prepare food with, as opposed to you know what 506 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 1: one news reporter referred to as a rambo knife. That 507 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:43,479 Speaker 1: doesn't make sense. I have far more families asked me 508 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 1: this question. When I would tell them that their loved 509 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:49,680 Speaker 1: one and die, they'd want to know where are they. 510 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 1: You would think that most people would say what happened. 511 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:58,240 Speaker 1: It's not the case every notification I ever made, Not everyone, 512 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:03,120 Speaker 1: but many of them, the family would want to know 513 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 1: where are they. It's a natural reaction two the reality 514 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 1: of death. You want to flee to that person. You 515 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 1: want to verify in your own mind that your loved 516 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 1: one has passed on. That's the reality of being a 517 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 1: death investigator. And when I heard that items from the 518 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 1: home from the location or being returned to family members, 519 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 1: understood on one level why the family would want those 520 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:43,960 Speaker 1: items back, because at this point they have nothing else 521 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:47,400 Speaker 1: other than memories. They would want to have items that 522 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 1: they could hold onto, those things that they can embrace 523 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 1: and know that they were part of their child's life, 524 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 1: even at the moment of their death. I have the 525 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 1: utmost respect and compassion for these families and what they're 526 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 1: going through. But at the same time, I have to wonder, 527 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 1: because of what I have learned from you. You said 528 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,800 Speaker 1: the phrase earlier lost moment. I think it's what you used. 529 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:17,440 Speaker 1: If these items returned to families, and I know that 530 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 1: they're not returning everything, they're not boxing up the entire room, 531 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 1: just certain items are being returned to families. But I 532 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 1: have to wonder if for some reason, you have to 533 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:34,160 Speaker 1: go back and think that something a piece of jewelry, 534 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 1: a bedspread, clothing, if you think that that might have 535 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:43,240 Speaker 1: a clue now that you didn't think was a clue, 536 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:48,400 Speaker 1: then then you've lost that moment. That moment is gone 537 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 1: forever and ever. Amen. Once it's released, I think, to 538 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:56,720 Speaker 1: start off with you, you lose context for the item 539 00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:02,400 Speaker 1: and the scene. And yeah, the scene has been photographed, Yes, 540 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 1: the scene has been measured. They've probably even done three 541 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:11,280 Speaker 1: D imaging inside of the home, which takes thousands of 542 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:18,240 Speaker 1: measurements and high resolution images. And that's all fine and good. 543 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:23,520 Speaker 1: But once an item is removed from the scene, you 544 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 1: cannot go back and place it in its original position. 545 00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 1: You know, I think that begs another question. If they're 546 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,280 Speaker 1: releasing these items, does that mean that they're about to 547 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:40,200 Speaker 1: release the entire scene, Because if you're taking components of 548 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:44,800 Speaker 1: the scene out, then that means that, in a broad sense, 549 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 1: that your work it scene is done. You know. My 550 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,560 Speaker 1: hope is is that they've considered all of this, that 551 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 1: they've sat around, They've sat around with experts, they've sat 552 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:56,360 Speaker 1: around with technicians, they've sat around with the investigators and said, Okay, 553 00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:58,240 Speaker 1: this is a list of things we're going to remove. 554 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 1: Are we sure that we have fully documented them to 555 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 1: the best of my ability? Because let me tell you 556 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 1: what's just over the horizon. When this person is caught 557 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:10,600 Speaker 1: just over the horizon waiting for them out there, and 558 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 1: this team that is putting this case together right now 559 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 1: as a defense attorney, and they're watching this, they might 560 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:17,200 Speaker 1: not be aware that they're going to be the defense 561 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:18,960 Speaker 1: attorney at this point in time, but they will become 562 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,440 Speaker 1: a defense attorney. And this is one of the questions 563 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 1: that's going to be asked. They're gonna say, why were 564 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:27,360 Speaker 1: these items removed from the scene, but yet you kept 565 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 1: the scene intact? It seems counterintuitive. Why not just released 566 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 1: the scene in total, Why you piece me in it 567 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:39,320 Speaker 1: at this point in time? And they're gonna say, while 568 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 1: we documented, we took photographs, we did three damaging and 569 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,600 Speaker 1: all of this, But still it remains you're taking items 570 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,800 Speaker 1: out of a scene that otherwise is still locked down. 571 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:53,720 Speaker 1: Why what's the urgency in this? I don't understand that, 572 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:56,320 Speaker 1: and it doesn't necessarily have to be explained to me, 573 00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:58,640 Speaker 1: It certainly doesn't. It Where it's going to have to 574 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:00,959 Speaker 1: be explained is in a court of law. When I 575 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:06,120 Speaker 1: teach students about crime scene investigation, I always tell them 576 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:09,960 Speaker 1: to treat every crime scene is if when you're taking 577 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 1: a step, there's potentially you're a step on the landmine. 578 00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:15,360 Speaker 1: And to me, this is a landmine. You have an 579 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:18,840 Speaker 1: opportunity to really do harm to the case because if 580 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 1: you're going to release it, release it. If you're not, 581 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 1: then don't Why are you going to peace me at 582 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:27,280 Speaker 1: this point in time? And people will say, well, these 583 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:31,520 Speaker 1: are items that have sentimental value to the family. I 584 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:34,160 Speaker 1: understand that, as I stated just a moment ago, I 585 00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:38,520 Speaker 1: understand how families behave and they're in these circumstances, but 586 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:44,480 Speaker 1: sentimentality is not going to count in the courts, it's not, 587 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 1: particularly when you're looking to get a conviction on the case. 588 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:51,400 Speaker 1: So you have to make sure that this is fully documented, 589 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:55,200 Speaker 1: that everything is covered, any items that you think might 590 00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:59,320 Speaker 1: have depositions of of any kind of biological substances on it, 591 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,200 Speaker 1: and sometimes you just cannot fully appreciate them and see 592 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,320 Speaker 1: that at the scene. I have had cases where families 593 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:07,880 Speaker 1: have shown me items that I missed at the scene 594 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,400 Speaker 1: where there was a big deposition of blood on it 595 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:13,520 Speaker 1: and I missed it. I've had tissue that's found at 596 00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:17,720 Speaker 1: scenes on items after I have left. You don't see 597 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:20,520 Speaker 1: everything at the scene when you are there, and granted 598 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:23,000 Speaker 1: they've been there for a while. I just hope that 599 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:26,799 Speaker 1: all their bases are covered. Well, tell me again you 600 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:30,360 Speaker 1: started telling a little bit about it. Tell me again 601 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:34,400 Speaker 1: how they do that. How do they cover all their bases? 602 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:39,520 Speaker 1: You mentioned three D renderings, you mentioned measuring, how do 603 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,560 Speaker 1: they do that? Going to these items that would have 604 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:45,920 Speaker 1: for instance, swabbed at the scene to look for any 605 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,920 Speaker 1: kind of deposition of DNA anything that the unaided I 606 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:51,680 Speaker 1: might not have picked up on. Those items would have 607 00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:53,839 Speaker 1: had to have been dusted. And then those things that 608 00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:56,600 Speaker 1: you don't think that are directly related to the case 609 00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:59,880 Speaker 1: would not have been touched by the evidence team. They 610 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,640 Speaker 1: might have just been photographed inside too, as they say, 611 00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:05,439 Speaker 1: or in place. The only thing I could really make 612 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:08,080 Speaker 1: out the other day someone had mentioned boots the other 613 00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:10,360 Speaker 1: day that they saw being taken out. I saw a 614 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:13,640 Speaker 1: computer screen that was being walked out by one agent 615 00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:16,200 Speaker 1: and given to somebody. I don't know what the sentimental 616 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:18,719 Speaker 1: value in that is, but it was being taken out 617 00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:21,000 Speaker 1: and given to somebody. Maybe it's one of the people 618 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,600 Speaker 1: that lives downstairs. Maybe they need their computer to do 619 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,319 Speaker 1: their work. I have no idea. So you have to 620 00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:28,719 Speaker 1: go through each item and see if there is a 621 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:33,480 Speaker 1: potential for to have any kind of forensic value whatsoever, 622 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:38,320 Speaker 1: And it would have to have been carefully examined in place, 623 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:42,040 Speaker 1: because once an item is removed from the place that 624 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:45,360 Speaker 1: it occupied, and you remember us talking about context just 625 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:48,600 Speaker 1: a second ago, even if you brought that item back, 626 00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 1: you could not place it in the exact position which 627 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:54,920 Speaker 1: it had previously been in, So you lose context and 628 00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:58,279 Speaker 1: its relationship to the space in which it occupies. The 629 00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:00,600 Speaker 1: wall behind it, the wall beside at the door in 630 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:03,600 Speaker 1: front of it, or maybe even the body to the 631 00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:06,879 Speaker 1: right of it. But what does that actually tell you? 632 00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:10,279 Speaker 1: I mean, you've referred to that several times, the context 633 00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,600 Speaker 1: of where it is. What kind of things does that 634 00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:17,000 Speaker 1: really tell you? Well, for instance, if you have a 635 00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:21,239 Speaker 1: dynamic event like a stabbing, you've got certainly I think 636 00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:23,719 Speaker 1: the most obvious thing you have is is cast off 637 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:27,160 Speaker 1: from a blade. Blade is being thrust into somebody's body 638 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:29,520 Speaker 1: and then drawn out with great violence. It will be 639 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:33,440 Speaker 1: supersatuated with blood. Well, you know when that happens, you've 640 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,320 Speaker 1: got this kind of arching path of blood that travels 641 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:40,320 Speaker 1: out and behind the perpetrators they're withdrawing the blade. Well, 642 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:43,200 Speaker 1: just that action in and of itself could lead to 643 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:46,879 Speaker 1: blood being deposited on some surface or some item that 644 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:49,560 Speaker 1: may have sentimental value, and the police not might not 645 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:51,279 Speaker 1: be aware of it, but yet they've gone in and 646 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:54,759 Speaker 1: they've collected it all. I think my question is how 647 00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:57,440 Speaker 1: do you go through and vet what has sentimental value 648 00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:00,880 Speaker 1: and what has evidentially value? Is it possible to have 649 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:06,960 Speaker 1: examined that item in place in that scene without having 650 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:10,280 Speaker 1: gone to ideal conditions at a laboratory before you release 651 00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:12,560 Speaker 1: it to a family. The stuff is being released directly 652 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,359 Speaker 1: to a family from a crime scene. It's not just 653 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:18,879 Speaker 1: coming from the crime lab after it's been examined under 654 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:22,440 Speaker 1: great lighting circumstances and having tools at your disposal that 655 00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:25,640 Speaker 1: you would need to conduct the thorough examination. That's not 656 00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:29,320 Speaker 1: happening here. You're releasing it directly from a crime scene 657 00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:32,480 Speaker 1: to a family. It's being placed into the back of 658 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:36,000 Speaker 1: U haul truck and then delivered to families. And I 659 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:39,399 Speaker 1: guess they're separating out in individual boxes. So now you've 660 00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:43,000 Speaker 1: got all these items that were in in different locations 661 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:45,600 Speaker 1: in this house. Presumably now they're all being boxed together 662 00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:49,279 Speaker 1: and placed into one location together and being transported. Any 663 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:52,040 Speaker 1: kind of evidentiary value they may have had is totally 664 00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:54,560 Speaker 1: lost at that point in time. And when I'd say context, 665 00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:58,960 Speaker 1: everything revolves around the bodies. Where were these items in 666 00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:01,600 Speaker 1: relation to the body is at the time of the homicide. 667 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:05,040 Speaker 1: Is anything from within the rooms in which the bodies 668 00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:08,759 Speaker 1: were found or any of those items being collected out 669 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:11,560 Speaker 1: of there and removed from those rooms, I'd say that 670 00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:14,480 Speaker 1: that's a big no no. Okay, what about the areas 671 00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:18,760 Speaker 1: that the perpetrator may have walked through sharing a knife 672 00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:21,680 Speaker 1: may be resting their hand upon maybe brushing up against 673 00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:24,919 Speaker 1: something in those rooms. What items out of those rooms 674 00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:27,879 Speaker 1: are being removed because they have sentimental value and being 675 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:30,680 Speaker 1: handed over to family members, we don't know at this 676 00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:32,799 Speaker 1: point in time, but we do know that there are 677 00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:35,840 Speaker 1: items that have been identified to have quote unquote sentimental 678 00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:38,879 Speaker 1: value that are being turned over to families. And once 679 00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:41,399 Speaker 1: they're gone, they're gone. You can't go back and take 680 00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:44,160 Speaker 1: these items and place them back in their original position. 681 00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:49,040 Speaker 1: It's empirically impossible. Well, not only that, which what you said, 682 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:52,319 Speaker 1: obviously everything is extremely important, but the family when they 683 00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:56,200 Speaker 1: get things, most likely they're going to clean them. Yeah, 684 00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:58,680 Speaker 1: I don't know who in the world would want to 685 00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:02,120 Speaker 1: have this item. There's certainly going to handle them. They're 686 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:04,040 Speaker 1: gonna handle them, They're gonna look at them, they're gonna 687 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:07,200 Speaker 1: consider them. And if there was evidence there, you know, 688 00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:09,400 Speaker 1: what are they gonna do. Are they gonna box it 689 00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:11,680 Speaker 1: up and keep it back for sentimental value, or they're 690 00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:13,520 Speaker 1: gonna place it up on the shelf. Before you would 691 00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:15,000 Speaker 1: place up on the shelf, you would think that they 692 00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:18,280 Speaker 1: would take some kind of agent, wipe it down, maybe 693 00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:21,239 Speaker 1: furniture polish or something, and watch the dust off of it, 694 00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:23,480 Speaker 1: set it up on a stand so that they can 695 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:25,440 Speaker 1: take a look at it and hold on to it. 696 00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:27,600 Speaker 1: And just what we were talking about earlier, that tacked 697 00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:31,320 Speaker 1: our sense. The families want to hang onto something, something 698 00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:34,359 Speaker 1: that was part and parcel of their child's life. And 699 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:36,400 Speaker 1: I agree with that. I agree that they should have 700 00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:39,160 Speaker 1: those items. I just don't know about the timing. My 701 00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:42,400 Speaker 1: default position in all of this is I feel as 702 00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:44,400 Speaker 1: though that the police down in Florida really set the 703 00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:47,440 Speaker 1: path forward when it comes to crime scenes. And when 704 00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:51,840 Speaker 1: you begin to talk about Nicholas Cruise and Parkland, that 705 00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:56,800 Speaker 1: that entire building was locked down for years, for years, 706 00:39:57,200 --> 00:39:59,520 Speaker 1: five years. I think, yeah, and if any of and 707 00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:01,600 Speaker 1: I think we even talked about this on an episode 708 00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:03,600 Speaker 1: of Body Backs. You go back and you've listened to 709 00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:06,440 Speaker 1: those statements from the reporters that follow the jury members 710 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:10,400 Speaker 1: into that building, and it's soul crushing. It's horrible. You know. 711 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:13,160 Speaker 1: They talked about desiccated roses that were laying on the floor, 712 00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:15,160 Speaker 1: Teddy bears with hearts on them, all these things that 713 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:19,680 Speaker 1: happened that day, that Valentine's Day. But yet you could 714 00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:22,319 Speaker 1: steal back and still go back as a jury and 715 00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:26,439 Speaker 1: contextualize that event and the relationship that those items had, 716 00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:28,879 Speaker 1: those forensic items had to the events of that day. 717 00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:33,680 Speaker 1: They knew that Nicholas Cruz killed those kids in that 718 00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:37,879 Speaker 1: school and those staff members. Guess what. As of right now, 719 00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:42,640 Speaker 1: there aint it's suspect in this case in Idaho, we're 720 00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:45,160 Speaker 1: still on the who did this, But yet you're releasing 721 00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:50,400 Speaker 1: items from scene because they have sent in a way. 722 00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:55,760 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Backs