1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vandercamp. I'm a mother of five, 2 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:10,200 Speaker 1: an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah hart Hunger. 3 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: I'm a mother of three, a practicing physician and blogger. 4 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:15,840 Speaker 1: On the side, we are two working parents who love 5 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 1: our careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds. 6 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, 7 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:25,800 Speaker 1: and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping 8 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 1: out long term career goals. We want you to get 9 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 1: the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds. 10 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: This is Laura. This is episode one hundred and sixty six, 11 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:39,839 Speaker 1: which is airing in early October of twenty twenty. We 12 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:43,960 Speaker 1: are interviewing Kelly Freden, who is a pediatrician who is 13 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 1: the author of a new book called Parenting in the Pandemic, 14 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 1: and she is going to share her thoughts on how 15 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 1: we can interpret risk and headlines, and what she's doing 16 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 1: with her children and the advice she gives her patients 17 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 1: about how to manage life and parenting in general during 18 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:05,680 Speaker 1: the pandemics. So, Sarah, where have you been getting your 19 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:11,679 Speaker 1: news about pandemic related stuff? For the most part, I 20 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:14,120 Speaker 1: would say my daily news brief, but then that's not 21 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 1: necessarily so great to figure out sort of like cases 22 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 1: and complication rates and those kinds of things. So actually, 23 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: I'm very lucky that my institution has had kind of 24 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 1: a COVID journal club monthly where a couple of infectious 25 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 1: disease and immunology experts actually present some of the latest articles, 26 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 1: including you know, sharing the tables and figures, and that's 27 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 1: been really helpful because, as we speak about later in 28 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 1: the interview, first of all, let me just say I 29 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:42,839 Speaker 1: am not one of those people who are anti quote 30 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 1: unquote mainstream news. I enjoy the New York Times, I 31 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 1: love NPR, I love both of those sources. But sometimes 32 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 1: I don't know that the news most journalists are not scientists, 33 00:01:56,600 --> 00:02:02,560 Speaker 1: and we'll imagine that like, oh gosh, this is I mean, 34 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: I go into a monologue later in the interview in 35 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 1: this and I don't want to go to a monologue 36 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:09,680 Speaker 1: on this now. But let's just say that statistics is 37 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:15,359 Speaker 1: not many people's strong suit. Yeah, and I do understand 38 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:17,320 Speaker 1: why an article or a news story is going to 39 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 1: be more exciting if it has you know, it's gonna 40 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 1: get more clicks if there are if they're emphasizing you know, 41 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 1: what's scary about something or what we really need to 42 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 1: watch for, but it does tend to ask you away 43 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:32,519 Speaker 1: from balance a little bit. I do want to say 44 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:35,679 Speaker 1: as kind of an intro to this episode that our 45 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 1: thoughts and interpretations of risk are individual, and I really 46 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:43,840 Speaker 1: do feel this is a time to focus on not shaming. 47 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 1: If I have a neighbor down the block that does 48 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 1: not feel comfortable sending their kids to school and feels 49 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 1: comfortable just kind of staying on their own for right now, 50 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 1: and they're happy and well adjusted doing that, like more 51 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 1: power to them. There is like no shame in that, 52 00:02:57,280 --> 00:02:59,360 Speaker 1: And in fact, like you know, the more people that 53 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 1: are happier doing that or feel comfortable doing that, the 54 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 1: less this virus will spread. So like that's great, But 55 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 1: I also don't think it's appropriate to shame others who 56 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 1: have weighed the risks and benefits for themselves and their 57 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 1: families and are making choices within the guidelines of rules 58 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:17,640 Speaker 1: that are set out in society right now whatever they 59 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 1: may be, and are doing their thing, like for the 60 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:22,519 Speaker 1: fact that I am sending two of my kids to 61 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:26,360 Speaker 1: in person school right now, and I hope that we 62 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 1: don't get too much. Well, it's okay if we get 63 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:32,079 Speaker 1: conversations related to this episode. But I guess my number 64 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:34,399 Speaker 1: one message would be I hope that we can show 65 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 1: kindness on both sides and respect for other people's interpretations 66 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 1: of risk. And it doesn't mean we shouldn't try to 67 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 1: understand what the risk look like better or sort of 68 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 1: compare to risks that we understand. I know that sounded weird, 69 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 1: but for example, comparing illness rates and complication rates to 70 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 1: other infections that we sort of had a grasp on, 71 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 1: like RSV and the flu can be useful for some 72 00:03:56,640 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 1: and so it may be worth filtering our choices through well, 73 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 1: what did we do before, what are the risks relative 74 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 1: to that, and what do we think the risks are now? 75 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 1: I don't know, I'm talking a little bit in circles, 76 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 1: but you know what I'm saying. Yeah, but I think 77 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 1: you know. And the one of the things we've stressed 78 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 1: with best of both worlds is that you know, there's 79 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:20,160 Speaker 1: a lot of judgment about people's choices out there, and 80 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:23,839 Speaker 1: pre pandemic, there was certainly a lot of judgment about 81 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 1: women's various lifestyle choices in terms of work and parenting, 82 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:34,040 Speaker 1: in terms of how they handle discipline or you know, 83 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 1: screen time, or you know what sort of kind of 84 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 1: even like how you feed your babies. There's a lot 85 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 1: of judgment and shaming out there, and for the most part, 86 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 1: that is not very helpful for anybody. And so we 87 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:54,359 Speaker 1: certainly don't want to create environment where we would do 88 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 1: that for women's lifestyle choices on work and family and 89 00:04:57,480 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 1: things like that. And that's one of the reasons we 90 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: have best of both worlds, and so I think we 91 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:04,920 Speaker 1: need to remember that mindset for you know, how people 92 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 1: react to life in a pandemic, the risks people are 93 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:11,599 Speaker 1: willing to take, or you know, in how they view 94 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:14,279 Speaker 1: that because you know, sometimes things are viewed as risks 95 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:17,360 Speaker 1: because it's new again and it may not be compared 96 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:20,840 Speaker 1: to what sort of background risk is in general. I mean, 97 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 1: you know, meteor could hit the planet at some point, 98 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 1: you know, it's there are real risks of other things 99 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 1: that we sort of just don't even deal with on 100 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,920 Speaker 1: a day to day basis. So keeping that in mind, 101 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 1: we just got the news yesterday that our district is 102 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:42,600 Speaker 1: in fact moving toward reopening, which is wonderful. It's certainly 103 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:46,600 Speaker 1: time in terms of our caseload here is relatively minimal, 104 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 1: and children's activities have been up and running for several 105 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 1: weeks with minimal fallout in terms of, you know, any 106 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 1: breakouts or anything like that. So they're looking at opening 107 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 1: for a hybrid model. I wish it was full time, 108 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 1: but we'll take partial. And they've already brought back the 109 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:10,840 Speaker 1: high needs special education students. They opened the buildings up 110 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 1: for them, like pretty much a week after school starting. 111 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:17,279 Speaker 1: They decided that there was no way to equitably do 112 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 1: appropriate education for those children, so they've been back in school. 113 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 1: Then they're going to open it up for kindergarteners I 114 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 1: think next week even and then first and third graders 115 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 1: within first to third graders within a few weeks after that. No, 116 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:31,839 Speaker 1: obviously this could all change, and one of the reasons 117 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:34,480 Speaker 1: we put Alex in a private school that was committed 118 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:36,479 Speaker 1: to opening is that I didn't want to take the 119 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:39,480 Speaker 1: risk of you know, getting set back and anything else. 120 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 1: But it's a very encouraging sign. My children are incredibly 121 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:45,880 Speaker 1: excited about going back. They were all very responsible about 122 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 1: wearing their masks and things like that. So you know, 123 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:51,360 Speaker 1: fingers crossed that our district will be back in that 124 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 1: back in that place soon. That is amazing. Yeah, we'll see. 125 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:59,040 Speaker 1: They keep saying like we have to be at this 126 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:02,480 Speaker 1: certain point to consider it. I don't know. But then 127 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 1: I've also seen headlines which god knows what that means, 128 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 1: that are like schools might open soon, and it's like 129 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 1: it's very confusing. But at this point I'm resigned to whatever, 130 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 1: mostly because my only child doing virtual school is doing okay, 131 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:17,119 Speaker 1: although she does wish and hope to see her friends 132 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 1: in person again. Yeah, well, I mean this is sort 133 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 1: of you and I have both made a decision that 134 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 1: would make daily life doable. Right that we looked at 135 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 1: what was going to happen and sort of sussed out 136 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 1: triaging that like our little boys were going to have 137 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 1: the most difficulty with online learning, and so we needed 138 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 1: to make other choices for them that would allow them 139 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 1: to enjoy learning and not have a lot of the 140 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 1: negative fallout that we had seen in the spring. And 141 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 1: that's what everyone's having to do is make choices that 142 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 1: are appropriate for their family. And so our guest doctor 143 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 1: Kelly Frayden, is all about making balanced, nuanced choices, looking 144 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 1: at the research, seeing what it says, and being calm 145 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:01,119 Speaker 1: so we're really excited to bring her on. Well, Sarah 146 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 1: and I are really excited to welcome Kelly Freden to 147 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 1: the podcast. She is a pediatrician. She is also the 148 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 1: author of a new book about parenting in a pandemic, 149 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 1: which is of course what we are all doing at 150 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 1: the moment, and is known on social media with the 151 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 1: handle Advice I give my friends, and so we are 152 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 1: of course all very excited to hear about the advice 153 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 1: she gives her friends. So, Kelly, welcome to the program. 154 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 1: Thanks for having me. So maybe you can tell us 155 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 1: a little bit about your career journey, you know, how 156 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 1: you came to your current position, and a little bit 157 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 1: about your family as well. Sure. So I went into 158 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 1: pediatrics pretty much. I went straight through from college to 159 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 1: medical school and pediatrics. Did my training in the Bronx. 160 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:51,319 Speaker 1: We live in New York City, and I wanted to 161 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 1: work taking care of children with complex medical issues. That's 162 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 1: really where my passion lies. I worry so much about 163 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 1: those families handling so much stress. So my first job 164 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:05,959 Speaker 1: was a big one. It was an academic job, taking 165 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:09,320 Speaker 1: care of children with very specialized medical conditions in the 166 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 1: hospital and out of the hospital, and I'm sure you 167 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 1: can imagine that when I had my kids that was 168 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 1: harder to balance. There was a lot of weekends and 169 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 1: emergencies and holidays. But it was absolutely for that reason, 170 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 1: looking for a better balance that I took a step back. 171 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 1: It was, you know, a Thanksgiving and Christmas both got 172 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 1: kind of spoiled one year by my work responsibilities, and 173 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:31,959 Speaker 1: I was like, Okay, I have to make a change. 174 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 1: So I switched to school health at that point, which 175 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 1: is a great fit schedule wise, since I get summers 176 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 1: off and I can be around in the afternoons for 177 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:47,319 Speaker 1: my family. And now I've started doing more writing and 178 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:50,839 Speaker 1: media work because you know, I've found that it's such 179 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 1: a wonderful way to reach people in an unconventional way 180 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:58,320 Speaker 1: that I can still like help families even though you know, 181 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 1: it's nighttime and I'm in my pajamas. So with school health, 182 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 1: and I definitely don't need specifics obviously, but do you 183 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 1: work for younger kids or are you doing more like 184 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:13,600 Speaker 1: college student health type stuff adolescent? Right, So mostly I've 185 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:16,319 Speaker 1: been it's a public health position in the South Bronx 186 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 1: taking care of the kids with diabetes and asthma. So 187 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 1: we have a list of like who's missing the most 188 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:23,320 Speaker 1: school or in the hospital most, and I try to 189 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 1: reach out to those families. Obviously, it's really challenging while 190 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:29,319 Speaker 1: schools are closed, but we do the best we can 191 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 1: to try to make sure there's people are plugged in. 192 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 1: It can be you know, difficult to have a good 193 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 1: provider team and a good plan for in school and 194 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:38,680 Speaker 1: out of school. That is amazing. We have something similar. 195 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 1: It sounds like one of our we have what's called 196 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 1: a safety net program down here, so it sounds sort 197 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 1: of similar to that's that's what a great opportunity and 198 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 1: a meaningful position that it sounds like also gives you 199 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:50,600 Speaker 1: a little bit more bandwidth to do other things like, 200 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:55,680 Speaker 1: you know, write a book during the pandemic. Yeah exactly. Yeah, 201 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 1: why don't you tell us about the logistics of that 202 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 1: since a lot of folks feel like there's a zero 203 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 1: extra bandwidth. How did you pull that off? I know, 204 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:09,200 Speaker 1: So I was trying to do it all between March 205 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:12,559 Speaker 1: and June, you know, watching my two and a half 206 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: year old, helping my son with Zoom kindergarten and working 207 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:18,959 Speaker 1: part time from home, like four hours a day, and 208 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:22,199 Speaker 1: it was really difficult, and my little girl started carrying 209 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 1: around a toy phone and saying, I'm on a work call, mommy, 210 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 1: and I was like, okay, something has to change. So 211 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 1: in June I took a leave of absence. Normally have 212 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:32,559 Speaker 1: the summers off every anyway, but I went out a 213 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 1: couple weeks early, and in July I started to send 214 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 1: out a newsletter and I compiled everything I had written 215 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 1: about coronavirus, just in bits and pieces on Instagram captions, 216 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 1: and it was fifty pages. And I said my husband, like, 217 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 1: it's like a lot of content I've already written, Like 218 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 1: maybe I should do something with this, and you know, 219 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 1: he said like, yeah, you should. You know you have. 220 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:57,440 Speaker 1: My background just fits really naturally with the topic, Like 221 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 1: I did my college thesis about stress management in psychology, 222 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 1: and then in residency I did research on Kawasaki disease, 223 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:07,880 Speaker 1: which is kind of like misc and I did, you know, 224 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 1: I know more than the average person about complex conditions. 225 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:15,439 Speaker 1: And I published also on when you have respiratory illnesses 226 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 1: and you're hospitalized as a child. So it just felt 227 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 1: like kind of destiny that I should try to compile 228 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 1: a resource to help families. So I did it in 229 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:29,960 Speaker 1: a month, mostly like from eight to midnight and sometimes 230 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 1: in the morning, and it was really fast. And I 231 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 1: think one of the things that I learned from the 232 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 1: experience was how important passion is professionally, because when you 233 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:41,559 Speaker 1: get a project that you think is really important, and 234 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:43,720 Speaker 1: when you believe in something, you can just you make 235 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 1: it work. I hadn't had anything that I've been like 236 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 1: so excited about and committed in a while, and so 237 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:53,959 Speaker 1: that was a nice experience to remind me, like, why 238 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 1: why we do what we do? It sounds like you 239 00:12:57,320 --> 00:12:59,960 Speaker 1: were perfectly positioned and was that you did a conventional 240 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 1: publishing deal. Writer is itself? pH I did everything myself, 241 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:06,199 Speaker 1: so I've learned. I've tried to learn a lot about 242 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:09,960 Speaker 1: like covers and book layouts and audiobooks. I recorded my 243 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:14,720 Speaker 1: own audiobook in my closet. That's about how we do 244 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:21,120 Speaker 1: podcasts over here. So totally with you on that. And 245 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 1: you've been writing about this for other places too. I mean, 246 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 1: so Sarah and I saw what you had written an 247 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:30,080 Speaker 1: Emily Oster's newsletter. Of course, she is a previous podcast guest. 248 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 1: She's the author of a couple of books like Cribsheet 249 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:35,320 Speaker 1: and Expecting Better about you know, the actual research and 250 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 1: what it says on pregnancy and child raising and things 251 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:40,679 Speaker 1: like that. And she has sort of a very balanced, 252 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 1: you know, approach on risk and such like that, which 253 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:48,200 Speaker 1: sounds like it fits a lot with your philosophy as well. 254 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:50,200 Speaker 1: So can you talk to our listeners a little bit 255 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 1: about what you wrote for her newsletter about about COVID right, 256 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 1: You know, I was so happy to connect with Emily 257 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:02,079 Speaker 1: Oster this this pandemic because us, you know, it's been 258 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 1: a rapid fire Some scientists say it's like we're getting 259 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 1: hit with a fire hose of like information about coronavirus 260 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 1: because it's so new and everybody is thinking about it 261 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:14,199 Speaker 1: and talking about it. There's so much data to take 262 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 1: in and analyze. But I was so happy and reassured 263 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 1: to see that when we all read all of the 264 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 1: studies we kind of interpreted them in a similar way 265 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 1: with regards to children's health, which is that while we 266 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 1: don't know everything, everything we do know so far is 267 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 1: on the more reassuring sign regarding children, regarding the severity 268 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 1: of illness being more similar to other respiratory illnesses like 269 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 1: the flu and RSV that you know for children, that 270 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 1: coronavirus doesn't seem to be worse than other viruses. Now, 271 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 1: you know, I think is important for a general audience 272 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 1: that I emphasize that these these regular respiratory viruses we 273 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 1: see are a problem for children. You know, thousands of 274 00:14:56,520 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 1: children are hospitalized every year for RSV and flu, So 275 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 1: I'm not trying to dismiss or minimize their risks. There 276 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 1: are children who have died of coronavirus and it's a tragedy, 277 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 1: but I think it's also important that we take it 278 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 1: in context as we make our decisions, like what's different 279 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:14,400 Speaker 1: about this or what's new about this, and how does 280 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 1: it affect our decision making as parents. So what I 281 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 1: tried to address for her newsletter was about how worried 282 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 1: parents should be about the long term side effects of 283 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 1: coronavirus for children, because there's been a lot in the 284 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 1: news about long haulers, adults and children who have prolonged 285 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:37,760 Speaker 1: symptoms from coronavirus. So we obviously have a lot to 286 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 1: learn about this because it hasn't been very long. But 287 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 1: I tried to give my best guesses as a pediatrician 288 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 1: about how to put this in context for families because statistically, 289 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:52,160 Speaker 1: you know, for example, the misc which is the sort 290 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 1: of immune system overreaction that some children have from coronavirus 291 00:15:56,680 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 1: that lands them in the hospital. It's a scary disorder, 292 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 1: but thankfully it has been rare and treatable. So while 293 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 1: awareness about it is important, I don't think it's the 294 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 1: kind of disorder that has to change parents' opinions or 295 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 1: keep them up at night worried about it because it 296 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 1: is it is so rare at this point. So while 297 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 1: there certainly may be some long term side effects from coronavirus, 298 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 1: I think parents can leave that to doctors to worry 299 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 1: about and research and learn about, and not worry about 300 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 1: them now because I don't think we have evidence that 301 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 1: they exist in a meaningful way that should alter your 302 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 1: decision making. Now. Yeah, there's a certain thing of risk, 303 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 1: and I'm sure you see this all the time in 304 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:47,000 Speaker 1: your work, that when something is new, a new risk, 305 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 1: people perceive it as far scarier and bigger than existing 306 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 1: risks that we have already priced into our behavioral model. 307 00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:01,560 Speaker 1: So we live through flo season every year in which 308 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:08,160 Speaker 1: children are hospitalized, children die of influenza, children babies die 309 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 1: of RSV. You know they're hospitalized. You know Alex was 310 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:13,479 Speaker 1: in the hospital with RSV when he was a baby. 311 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:16,719 Speaker 1: But you know, we've priced that in to our behavioral model, 312 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:21,919 Speaker 1: whereas this novel coronavirus we see as new and so 313 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 1: people have an inclination to see it as very scary 314 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:29,680 Speaker 1: beyond what you would you know, with these other things 315 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:34,119 Speaker 1: that are already priced in. I mean, so with that 316 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 1: in mind, I mean, can you tell us about the 317 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:39,879 Speaker 1: risks that you are concerned about a lot with Oh, sorry, 318 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 1: Sarah's telling us we need to take an ad break. 319 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:56,680 Speaker 1: We'll get back to risk in one minute. So we're 320 00:17:56,760 --> 00:17:58,960 Speaker 1: back with Kelly Freden and I was just going on 321 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 1: to a monologue out the nature of risk, our interpretations 322 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:05,120 Speaker 1: of it. So I'm going to let Kelly talk about 323 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:09,359 Speaker 1: how we should think about risks and the risks that 324 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:12,879 Speaker 1: kids are facing from some of what we've done to 325 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:17,199 Speaker 1: counter the coronavirus. Yeah, you know, that's just it. So 326 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 1: when I think about overall children's risk, I have to 327 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 1: think about the fact that the direct impact of coronavirus 328 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 1: for most children is small. Most children who get coronavirus 329 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:33,680 Speaker 1: will be asymptomatic. There are children who are at higher risk, 330 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 1: you know, babies or children who have chronic medical conditions, 331 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:42,800 Speaker 1: you know, like diabetes, heart disease, asthma maybe, But for 332 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 1: the most part children, the biggest risk is the secondary impacts. 333 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 1: So children who may miss health care maintenance visits and vaccinations, 334 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:56,879 Speaker 1: children who may have increased mental health stress, or miss 335 00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 1: out on friendships that can be really important for them. 336 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:04,680 Speaker 1: You know, these secondary impacts are real too, So as parents, 337 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:07,439 Speaker 1: we we have to balance when we think about our 338 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:11,440 Speaker 1: children's risk, you know, the direct impacts and the indirect impacts. 339 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:15,040 Speaker 1: But then it's even more complicated than that, because we 340 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:17,720 Speaker 1: also have to think about how our children are. The 341 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:20,719 Speaker 1: decisions we make for our children impact the other people 342 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 1: in our family. If we live with high risk individuals 343 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:27,119 Speaker 1: or if a parent has a high risk condition. We 344 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 1: also have to think about our bigger community. You know, 345 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:34,160 Speaker 1: how can we be How can we be responsible? Because 346 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:38,840 Speaker 1: we know that children can transmit coronavirus, and we we 347 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 1: have a responsibility to play and an opportunity to teach 348 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 1: our children that our actions matter and that we have 349 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 1: to do things even if we're not terrified about getting 350 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 1: the virus ourselves. We have to be we have to 351 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:54,119 Speaker 1: be responsible members of our community and protect our teachers 352 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:57,920 Speaker 1: and our other families in our communities by wearing our 353 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 1: masks and socially distancing and making responsible choices. So I'm 354 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 1: going to get a little juicy because I am sure 355 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 1: that your patients ask you this on a daily basis, 356 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 1: as do mine what risks are you personally comfortable taking 357 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 1: right now? If you're willing to share what choices you've 358 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:20,120 Speaker 1: made around school and social events and try and all that, absolutely, 359 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 1: you know, So I have to preface it by saying 360 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:25,200 Speaker 1: that we're we're in a good situation here in New 361 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 1: York for a while now. You know, we had a 362 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:30,439 Speaker 1: terrible run of it in the spring, but for a 363 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 1: while now we've had tight control as a community. So 364 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 1: you know, we're talking about like only zero point seven 365 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 1: percent of tests being positive for coronavirus in a city 366 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:43,560 Speaker 1: of like eight million people, there's like five hundred that 367 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 1: have coronavirus, which is low, really low. So I also 368 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:52,440 Speaker 1: have a low risk family, Like my family is healthy. 369 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:55,159 Speaker 1: I don't have a newborn or a grandparent living with me. 370 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:58,399 Speaker 1: So in that context, I've been able to choose to 371 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 1: send both my kids back to school in person, the 372 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 1: schools are making the kids mask. My daughter's only two 373 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:08,360 Speaker 1: when she's masking all day and doing okay with it. 374 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:13,879 Speaker 1: So the schools are cohorting tightly and masking and making 375 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 1: attempts to socially distance the kids. Like my son when 376 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 1: he does pe, they're like twelve feet apart doing their 377 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 1: little drills. So you know, the schools are being really 378 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:25,920 Speaker 1: responsible and proactive, which helped me be more comfortable with it. 379 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:29,679 Speaker 1: I do let my kids go to pretty much anything 380 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 1: outdoors in terms of playgrounds or play dates. I try 381 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:38,440 Speaker 1: to keep with the same cohort as much as possible 382 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:43,640 Speaker 1: as a precaution, because you know, it's always possible that 383 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:47,400 Speaker 1: coronavirus will sneak in somehow, and we'd rather have one 384 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 1: cohort shut down than have exposed many different families. So 385 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 1: we still keep our circle kind of small, but we 386 00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 1: have this period of good control, and I think for 387 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 1: us it's been important to kind of be out and 388 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 1: get those social contacts in. While the weather's good in 389 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:08,120 Speaker 1: the control of coronavirus is good because it make it worse. Right, 390 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:10,359 Speaker 1: That's a really nice way to look at it, like 391 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:13,880 Speaker 1: take advantage of when you know the risks are less sizable, 392 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 1: because they may go up again and that may change 393 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 1: your behavior, and that's okay because we do have to 394 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 1: kind of keep a mindset of fluidity right today maybe 395 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:25,480 Speaker 1: different from December, which hopefully, you know, by some point 396 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:27,960 Speaker 1: in time, maybe the risks will overall be lower, which 397 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:31,000 Speaker 1: will be wonderful. But you're right, it does vary, and 398 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:33,639 Speaker 1: I love that take on things. I'm also very jealous 399 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 1: that your playgrounds are open. Although we certainly have not 400 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:40,479 Speaker 1: approached a zero point seven percent positive rate down in 401 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:43,680 Speaker 1: Florida as of this recording. Anyway, maybe maybe by the 402 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 1: time it airs, that'd be great. Fingers crossed. So who 403 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:50,439 Speaker 1: do you turn to for news, Kelly, Like, when you 404 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 1: are trying to, you know, interpret the stuff that's coming 405 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:57,640 Speaker 1: out and would prefer not to be reading headlines that 406 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:03,440 Speaker 1: are more harmful than helpful. Where do you get your 407 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,960 Speaker 1: news about all that's going on with the pandemic. Yeah, 408 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 1: that's a great question, because it's hard to find reliable, 409 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 1: not fear mongering news right now because every day you'll 410 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 1: see even major mainstream publications, you know, taking one number 411 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 1: kind of out of context because the news is trying 412 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:26,159 Speaker 1: to sell the news. You know. I think that the 413 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 1: New York Times coverage about coronavirus and their Parenting newsletter 414 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:31,919 Speaker 1: has been pretty responsible. I think that's one of my 415 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 1: favorite sources for parents. You know, as adoptor, I try 416 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 1: to go straight to the source as much as possible, 417 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:41,960 Speaker 1: like the bigger journals, like the Lance in the New 418 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:46,640 Speaker 1: England Journal. It's funny though, because even in those publications 419 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 1: I've seen bias, Like there are some big journals in 420 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 1: medicine that have taken much more conservative opinions about what 421 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 1: they've published, and so it's kind of it's definitely been 422 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:01,080 Speaker 1: a challenge. Yeah, I know a lot of people are 423 00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:05,119 Speaker 1: concerned about that and you know, hoping that research can 424 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 1: be presented responsibly like that. It's not you know, one 425 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 1: result does not in and of itself like mean anything 426 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 1: in terms of long term results. It has to be 427 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:20,399 Speaker 1: a preponderance of data exactly. It's a new thing, yeah, right, 428 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,399 Speaker 1: And when I was you know, back in May, we 429 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 1: started to get data from other places in the world 430 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 1: that you know, had taken different approaches, like we said, 431 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:31,720 Speaker 1: so we saw like that in Australia and New Zealand 432 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 1: school transmission of coronavirus wasn't as bad as we expected, 433 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,160 Speaker 1: and so we had to like kind of wait and see, 434 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:39,560 Speaker 1: and then we see in Germany they also had a 435 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 1: pretty good experience. And then it came out that health 436 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 1: Finland and Sweden these places have been able to navigate 437 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 1: school reopenings well. So it's not when we get the 438 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 1: first study that we feel reassured or informed, but when 439 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 1: we start to see that, Okay, like seven countries out 440 00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 1: of the eight who have reported have reported relatively reassuring 441 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 1: information that I feel more comfortable as a doctor being like, yes, 442 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:06,200 Speaker 1: the bulk of the evidence looks this way, and sure 443 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,400 Speaker 1: more evidence can come out, but at least we have 444 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:13,240 Speaker 1: a trend. I think it's important to always remember to 445 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:16,920 Speaker 1: look at the denominator with research, because man, those headlines 446 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 1: love screaming the number of cases or number of positives, 447 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:25,199 Speaker 1: and they often leave out out of what which is 448 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,679 Speaker 1: so incredibly important as we're assessing risk. Right. Oh, it 449 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:32,399 Speaker 1: drives me crazy. There was one that is like it 450 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,119 Speaker 1: looked at children who came to the emergency room and 451 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:38,360 Speaker 1: tested positive for coronavirus what their odds of being hospitalized 452 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,160 Speaker 1: was and it was like six percent, And the headlines 453 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,920 Speaker 1: were six percent of children with coronavirus need to be hospitalized, 454 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:47,399 Speaker 1: And it's like, wait, wait, I no, that's six percent 455 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:49,800 Speaker 1: of children who were sick and came to the emergency 456 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:53,679 Speaker 1: room because they were sick and needed coronavirus. So really, 457 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,679 Speaker 1: you know, you have to remember that eighty percent of 458 00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:59,520 Speaker 1: more or more of children don't have any symptoms, so 459 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:02,360 Speaker 1: really six percent number is probably closer to like zero 460 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:06,639 Speaker 1: point three percent, and that's really different. So we have 461 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 1: to we have to listen to numbers and think about 462 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 1: the numbers, but we have to have that context exactly. 463 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:15,520 Speaker 1: That context is so key, and there's when we're recording this, 464 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:17,639 Speaker 1: there was just a headline that was making the rounds 465 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:21,880 Speaker 1: about school teachers dying of COVID. The way the headline 466 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 1: was written, it made it sound like back to you know, 467 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:28,159 Speaker 1: they'd come back to school, gotten stricken with COVID and died. 468 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:32,080 Speaker 1: But no, no, they they got it over the summer 469 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:36,120 Speaker 1: and spring when they were not in person at school. 470 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 1: And obviously it's horrible that anyone dies, but it was 471 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:43,159 Speaker 1: not that they had started up school and you know, 472 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 1: been struck down in the hallways the way the headline implied. 473 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,400 Speaker 1: So there's just a lot of alarmism going on with this. 474 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,720 Speaker 1: And one of the you know, problems with that then 475 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,160 Speaker 1: is is you know, because people are taking the actions 476 00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 1: they are, I know, you deal with the mental health issues, 477 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 1: right that that is something that you have really studied. 478 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:05,879 Speaker 1: So for you know, families who are dealing with this, 479 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 1: what can we you know, what are some of the 480 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:12,399 Speaker 1: things you're seeing in terms of mental health with kids 481 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,400 Speaker 1: and families that we should be on the lookout for 482 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 1: in our own families. And if there are signs that 483 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:20,680 Speaker 1: we need to take action, what should we be doing. 484 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 1: That's a great question. So the recent data that came 485 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 1: out from the CDC about what's going on this pandemic 486 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 1: with mental health is really just staggering, especially you know, 487 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 1: young adults. We're reporting really high rates of anxiety and depression. 488 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:41,720 Speaker 1: You know, huge numbers like almost three quarters of eighteen 489 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:45,320 Speaker 1: to twenty nine year olds who are reporting clinically significant symptoms. 490 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:49,880 Speaker 1: So I think it's really important that we take care 491 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 1: of ourselves as parents, and if we're having problems ourselves, 492 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,960 Speaker 1: we take care of those because I think parents are 493 00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:00,560 Speaker 1: under so much stress right now, it's really just inable. 494 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 1: Especially I've been so worried about the parents on the 495 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 1: West Coast who are dealing with the fires on top 496 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 1: of a pandemic. We have to find ways. This isn't 497 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,480 Speaker 1: just like a two week lockdown anymore. This is a long, 498 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:15,159 Speaker 1: a long term that we're dealing with, So we have 499 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 1: to find ways to protect and promote our mental health. 500 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,680 Speaker 1: So for adults, you know, I think sometimes that means 501 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 1: lowering our expectations of what we can get done realistically, 502 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,920 Speaker 1: you know, and asking for more help. I think prioritizing 503 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:35,760 Speaker 1: the basics like exercise and sleep. Those basic things are 504 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 1: so easy to try to skip when you're crunched, but 505 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 1: they really can make such a big difference in how 506 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:46,040 Speaker 1: you feel and help you feel more prepared for all 507 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 1: the stuff that you have to deal with. Then, with 508 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 1: regards to our children, parents to obviously worry so much 509 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 1: about our children, but children are, for the most part, 510 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 1: really resilient, and I think it's natural that children will 511 00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:03,320 Speaker 1: struggle during this time. Their routines and their support structures 512 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 1: have been disrupted too, So I think the first thing 513 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 1: I'd say to parents is not to feel guilty if 514 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 1: you see your child struggling, and not to you know, 515 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 1: we have an opportunity to normalize it for our child 516 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:18,600 Speaker 1: and be like, yeah, it's hard, it's a hard. Time 517 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 1: and it's okay to struggle, and then we can work 518 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 1: together to build our coping skills, and that experience may 519 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 1: actually help our children down the line too, because this 520 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 1: won't be the first time they struggle in their life, 521 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 1: you know, unfortunately, like they'll probably have setbacks, whether it's 522 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:38,239 Speaker 1: professionally or personally when they're older. And maybe you know, 523 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 1: right now, we can teach them how to be mindful 524 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 1: or how to find flow and in an activity you 525 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:49,280 Speaker 1: enjoy to help relieve your stress, or you know, how 526 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:55,760 Speaker 1: to prioritize connecting with friends or deep breathing exercises. There 527 00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 1: are ways that we can work to help our children 528 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 1: before even leaving the house. And then, I think, especially 529 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,040 Speaker 1: for younger children, it could be confusing to know when 530 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 1: they're struggling. So parents with kids under ten, you might 531 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 1: see unusual signs, like maybe they're complaining about tummy aches 532 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,600 Speaker 1: or headaches, but you don't think they're really sick. They 533 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 1: can kind of samaticize or have those sorts of complaints 534 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 1: when they're feeling anxious or sad. I think tantrums and 535 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 1: clinginess and sleep disruptions. Sometimes those just happen because of 536 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:35,120 Speaker 1: developmental changes, but sometimes when they don't go away for 537 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:36,920 Speaker 1: more than two weeks, it might be a sign that 538 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:41,440 Speaker 1: it's more a mental health related and pediatricians can help 539 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:47,680 Speaker 1: connect families with resources, whether it's books to help or 540 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:51,480 Speaker 1: professional help from a therapist. Because it can be hard 541 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:55,240 Speaker 1: to find those resources, sometimes I encourage parents to look 542 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 1: for them earlier because if you say, like, this is 543 00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:01,440 Speaker 1: my child's having a hard time, but maybe I'll just 544 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 1: see how it goes and wait. Then later, if they're 545 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:05,800 Speaker 1: really having a hard time, then you're going to start 546 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:07,480 Speaker 1: the referral process, and it might be a month or 547 00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:10,240 Speaker 1: two before the appointment. So if you're on the fence 548 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 1: about it, sometimes just making the appointment and getting connected 549 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:17,360 Speaker 1: with the resources can be helpful. And then if after 550 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:20,160 Speaker 1: a session or two your child learns something and you 551 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 1: don't think it's necessary, then you could always stop. Something 552 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:26,560 Speaker 1: I learned recently is that you know, you might have 553 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:28,360 Speaker 1: a young kid who's like three or four and think, 554 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:30,080 Speaker 1: oh my god, like, how are they gonna, you know, 555 00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 1: go to therapy, But actually there are therapists who specialize 556 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 1: in kids that are really young, and a lot of 557 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,800 Speaker 1: what they do is working with the parents to help you, 558 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:42,960 Speaker 1: you know, find strategies to help them cope. So I 559 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:45,480 Speaker 1: thought that was really interesting that you shouldn't just write 560 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:47,560 Speaker 1: off the idea of getting helped just because your child 561 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 1: is on the young side. Absolutely, it's really amazing some 562 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:55,080 Speaker 1: of the ways that they use play and art therapeutically 563 00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,880 Speaker 1: for young kids, and it can be really helpful for 564 00:31:58,000 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 1: children and it can be kind of fun for them 565 00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:03,040 Speaker 1: to you, So it's not always the same as we 566 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 1: would imagine it to be. Well, very cool, Sarah, Did 567 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:09,720 Speaker 1: you have any more questions, sir No. I thought that 568 00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 1: was great, just nice and balanced. And again, we are 569 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:17,040 Speaker 1: not at all trying to quote unquote minimize this pandemic. 570 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,960 Speaker 1: This is you know, obviously has caused a lot of 571 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,719 Speaker 1: a lot of suffering, a lot of death, so please 572 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:28,040 Speaker 1: don't this discussion is not meant to minimize that suffering. 573 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:31,000 Speaker 1: But at the same time, everything has context, and I 574 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:34,560 Speaker 1: think it's important to make sure that it's there. And Kelly, 575 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:36,520 Speaker 1: doctor Brayden, is one of the people who I think 576 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,760 Speaker 1: is doing a great job at taking it seriously but 577 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:44,000 Speaker 1: also providing some really important background in context so we 578 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:48,160 Speaker 1: can think about things logically. Thank you. It's a lot 579 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,880 Speaker 1: harder to oh, I was just going to say, I 580 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,640 Speaker 1: think it's as soon as it's a lot harder to 581 00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 1: dig into the nuance because it's more complicated. It's easier 582 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:00,400 Speaker 1: to say just stay home and do nothing and protect 583 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 1: yourself because that's the most surefire away that you won't 584 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:08,720 Speaker 1: get sick and you won't encounter risk. But I think, 585 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:12,560 Speaker 1: especially given the duration of this, we have to really 586 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:17,480 Speaker 1: dig in more to how we can preserve our lives 587 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,240 Speaker 1: as best we can safely for our family and responsibly 588 00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:22,960 Speaker 1: and find that middle ground that it's not always black 589 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,200 Speaker 1: and white, that there's like some gray where we can 590 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:29,160 Speaker 1: still enjoy what we enjoy about life during this difficult time. 591 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,640 Speaker 1: Well Son, so Kelly, I was about to say that 592 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:35,920 Speaker 1: we always end with our love of the week, which 593 00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:39,040 Speaker 1: is something that we're really happy with right now, and 594 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 1: Sarah and I can go first to give you a 595 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:44,239 Speaker 1: minute to think about it. So mine this week is 596 00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 1: you know, my older kids are in virtual school. That's 597 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:51,600 Speaker 1: how our districts started. We made the decision to pull 598 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:53,960 Speaker 1: our kindergartener out of the public schools and put them 599 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:56,520 Speaker 1: in a private one that was meeting in person, and 600 00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:02,240 Speaker 1: it has been the best decision I am. I am 601 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 1: thrilled with his in person schooling, So that is that 602 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:09,400 Speaker 1: we just started. When we were recording this, we had 603 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 1: just started last week, so this has been his first 604 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:16,560 Speaker 1: week of it, and it is it has been wonderful. 605 00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 1: So that is my love of the week, Sarah, how 606 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:22,480 Speaker 1: about you? Oh, mine has nothing to do with that, 607 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,440 Speaker 1: although I'm also very happy about in person school thus 608 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 1: far for my first grader. But Mochy Things m O 609 00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:32,759 Speaker 1: c h I t h I n G is a 610 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:37,080 Speaker 1: Instagram targeted ad that totally sucked me in the other 611 00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:42,480 Speaker 1: day and it's a beautiful stationary shop with mostly international offerings, 612 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,319 Speaker 1: so obviously very very up my alley. But if you 613 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:50,640 Speaker 1: just want some soothing Instagram promoted browsing, you should check 614 00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:55,719 Speaker 1: it out. Mooky Things awesome. Kelly, how about you? Yeah, 615 00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:59,120 Speaker 1: same as what you've said. Really, watching my kids start 616 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:03,040 Speaker 1: back to school, you know, after an anxious time and 617 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,200 Speaker 1: being so isolated, you know, you worry about your child 618 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:08,960 Speaker 1: losing social skills or forgetting how to have fun with 619 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:12,800 Speaker 1: their friends. And watching a couple of boys run around 620 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 1: in the park, I mean they were masked, but they 621 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:19,120 Speaker 1: were so delighted to view together again the classmates. So 622 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,680 Speaker 1: that was really nice seeing them play and seeing them 623 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:25,680 Speaker 1: still experiencing a little joy. Wonderful. Well, Kelly, thank you 624 00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 1: so much for joining us, and people can find you. 625 00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:31,080 Speaker 1: Can you share again your social media handles where you're 626 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:36,080 Speaker 1: giving the advice you'd give your friends. Yes, so I 627 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:39,960 Speaker 1: give parenting and pediatric health advice on Instagram and Facebook 628 00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:44,160 Speaker 1: at advice I give my friends, and I have a 629 00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:46,560 Speaker 1: website with that name. To advice, I give my friends 630 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:49,600 Speaker 1: dot com where I have the monthly newsletter, and then 631 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:52,200 Speaker 1: the book Parenting in a Pandemic how to Help Your 632 00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:56,440 Speaker 1: Family through COVID nineteen is available wherever books are sold 633 00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:01,759 Speaker 1: basically online as an audiobook, paperback, and e book, and 634 00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:03,920 Speaker 1: I'd love it if people would check it out and 635 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:06,040 Speaker 1: let me know what they think. Please do that. I'm 636 00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:08,439 Speaker 1: sure a lot of our listeners will be there very sore. 637 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:11,560 Speaker 1: All right, thank you so much for joining us, Kelly. Okay, 638 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:15,600 Speaker 1: thanks so much. All right, Well that was a fantastic interview. 639 00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:19,640 Speaker 1: I loved speaking with Kelly. What a great resource and 640 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:22,520 Speaker 1: perspective that she has. So this Q and A. I 641 00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:24,560 Speaker 1: think I'll read it because I actually wasn't even sure 642 00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:29,120 Speaker 1: if it was for this podcast. A little more anonymous, 643 00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:34,120 Speaker 1: but that's okay. This person is super in love with planners. 644 00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:36,759 Speaker 1: And she said she had her first baby around the 645 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:38,960 Speaker 1: same time as Laura had her fits, so he's eight 646 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:41,759 Speaker 1: months old now. She says, the baby is not more 647 00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:44,600 Speaker 1: difficult to take care of than an ordinary eight month old. 648 00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:47,680 Speaker 1: But we are just floundering on most fronts. Things are 649 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:51,799 Speaker 1: falling through the cracks. I'm unwittingly ghosting friends, missing appointments, 650 00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:54,600 Speaker 1: and my lists are constantly out of date, especially on 651 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:56,960 Speaker 1: the home front. At this point, I feel like even 652 00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:58,520 Speaker 1: if I got a whole day to myself, I would 653 00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:00,719 Speaker 1: probably just tinker around the edge of is because the 654 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:03,120 Speaker 1: enormity of trying to see all of the fallen down 655 00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:05,560 Speaker 1: pieces of my former life is too much to handle. 656 00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:10,800 Speaker 1: And then she puts in parentheses and maybe over dramaticize it. Anyway, 657 00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:12,680 Speaker 1: not having time to plan like I used to makes 658 00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:15,200 Speaker 1: me anxious and bad tempereds so it's not good for anyone. 659 00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:16,919 Speaker 1: I think I need to create some sort of mini 660 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:20,080 Speaker 1: version of a ritual that is achievable. What I wanted 661 00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:22,680 Speaker 1: to ask you was a can I get some sympathy 662 00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:25,120 Speaker 1: because my husband does not understand why it's so important 663 00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:27,600 Speaker 1: to get to inbox zero or keep my bullet journal 664 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:29,799 Speaker 1: in order and be if you were in a life 665 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,520 Speaker 1: situation where you have very little free time, what are 666 00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:34,719 Speaker 1: the bare bones of your planning system that you could 667 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,000 Speaker 1: do in a short time window and still achieve most 668 00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:39,520 Speaker 1: of what you wanted to do? And then she wrote, 669 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:41,200 Speaker 1: anything else you have to say about this time in 670 00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:44,400 Speaker 1: your life would be appreciated. And she also said that 671 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:47,520 Speaker 1: what we mentioned on a best of Both Worlds episode recently, 672 00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:49,839 Speaker 1: that the baby year is just about surviving, she felt 673 00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:52,919 Speaker 1: a huge sense of relief. So yay, I'll answer first, 674 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:55,040 Speaker 1: cause I think Laura has a more valuable answer being 675 00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:58,880 Speaker 1: in the thick of it right now. Well, actually, and 676 00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:00,719 Speaker 1: I have another thing to add, which is that when 677 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:03,520 Speaker 1: I was in that post baby period, I actually switched planners, 678 00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:06,480 Speaker 1: which is really odd thing to say, but uh, or 679 00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:08,760 Speaker 1: do maybe. But you know, I normally use this detailed 680 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:10,480 Speaker 1: hoe bunichi thing that has a page for every day, 681 00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:12,080 Speaker 1: and I'm feeling the stuff to do and I was like, 682 00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:14,200 Speaker 1: that is just too much base because I can't do 683 00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:16,680 Speaker 1: that much and it's like disheartening to see an empty 684 00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:18,400 Speaker 1: page of things when I don't have the bandwidth to 685 00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:19,960 Speaker 1: do all these things. So I did switch to a 686 00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:22,080 Speaker 1: weekly planner so that if there were only three things 687 00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:24,560 Speaker 1: on that page and they got checked off, it looked 688 00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:27,080 Speaker 1: better than an empty pitch for the only three things 689 00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:29,200 Speaker 1: in it that got checked off or one thing. So 690 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:32,680 Speaker 1: you may want to consider not using a bullet journal, 691 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:34,759 Speaker 1: or you know, making the space for each day a 692 00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:37,640 Speaker 1: little smaller to acknowledge the fact that you do have 693 00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:40,000 Speaker 1: less ability to get things done right now. And that's 694 00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:43,520 Speaker 1: okay from a concrete standpoint. I hope that you have 695 00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:45,760 Speaker 1: enough help. You mentioned that your husband is staying home. 696 00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:47,759 Speaker 1: I hope that he is giving you the same kind 697 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:50,359 Speaker 1: of courtesies that many stay at home mothers give their 698 00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:52,960 Speaker 1: working partners, like hopefully he's helping with meals and like, 699 00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:54,799 Speaker 1: you know, giving you a little bit of time, all 700 00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:57,520 Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. And if you have the ability 701 00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:00,520 Speaker 1: or need to get some help in addition, that that 702 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,480 Speaker 1: could be something to consider. If that feels right to you. 703 00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:06,480 Speaker 1: I will say that things will improve with time, and 704 00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:08,399 Speaker 1: I think Laura's going to get more into that. If 705 00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:10,279 Speaker 1: you are pumping, and I don't know if you are, 706 00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:12,600 Speaker 1: but you have an eight month old, well, I got 707 00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:15,000 Speaker 1: to say in my experience those months were like the worst. 708 00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:18,080 Speaker 1: It was just survival mode. Laura thinks I'm crazy for 709 00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:20,239 Speaker 1: putting in the effort that I put in sometimes, but 710 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:21,960 Speaker 1: I'm still I don't really regret it, but I will 711 00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:23,759 Speaker 1: say I didn't get much done and I was not 712 00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:27,040 Speaker 1: the most happy human being or productive during those months. 713 00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:29,960 Speaker 1: And then if you could just carve out a little 714 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:32,399 Speaker 1: time for you, maybe negotiate with your husband a very 715 00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:35,320 Speaker 1: specific window to do that bare bones triage, Like you 716 00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:36,960 Speaker 1: don't have to get to inbox zero, but at least 717 00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:38,640 Speaker 1: you can make a daily to do list and look 718 00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:41,120 Speaker 1: at what you have going on, you know, each day. 719 00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:43,920 Speaker 1: That might help to give you the damage control and 720 00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:47,040 Speaker 1: explaining to your husband or partner like how that has 721 00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:49,840 Speaker 1: a mental health benefit for you, not just concrete productivity 722 00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:55,800 Speaker 1: benefit might be helpful. Yeah. I mean, Sarah had pasted 723 00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:58,799 Speaker 1: this email into here, and one of the things she 724 00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:02,040 Speaker 1: had said is, you know, some of listening about planning 725 00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:04,480 Speaker 1: and stuff just makes her sad. And I want to 726 00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:08,280 Speaker 1: stress here that I'm just surviving too, Like, let's be honest, 727 00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:11,200 Speaker 1: I mean there are drop balls all over the place, 728 00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:14,880 Speaker 1: Like I get an email pretty much daily from somebody 729 00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:17,560 Speaker 1: being like, hey, weren't you supposed to do that? And 730 00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:22,360 Speaker 1: I'm like, whoops, I guess I was didn't. Sorry. Somehow, 731 00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:24,600 Speaker 1: the important ones they just make their way back to you, though, 732 00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:26,880 Speaker 1: and they may get back the person follows up, usually 733 00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:29,839 Speaker 1: her calls, and I'm like, oh yeah that. I mean, 734 00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:32,239 Speaker 1: you know, best of both worlds. We love babies. This 735 00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:35,920 Speaker 1: podcast loves babies, but babies are also incredibly hard, and 736 00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:38,120 Speaker 1: the transition to parenthood is especially hard. I mean, I 737 00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:40,759 Speaker 1: at least have the benefit of having been through this 738 00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:44,080 Speaker 1: five times, so I sort of know how it goes. 739 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:47,399 Speaker 1: You know, this listener has just had her first and 740 00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:50,520 Speaker 1: so she's gone from a world where she probably had 741 00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:53,919 Speaker 1: it together. Now she doesn't. Words, I was a mess 742 00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:56,759 Speaker 1: long before this, like thirteen years, so it's okay, you know, 743 00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:59,640 Speaker 1: I'm there wasn't that much of a change, so, you know, 744 00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:04,080 Speaker 1: I think think just in terms of planning, having, as 745 00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:07,239 Speaker 1: she said, want a set time or at least a 746 00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:09,239 Speaker 1: ritual of it. Like maybe not a set time because 747 00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:12,080 Speaker 1: it's hard to do with a baby too. But I Friday, 748 00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:15,480 Speaker 1: I make my list for the upcoming week. These are 749 00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:17,319 Speaker 1: the things that have to happen. Some of them are 750 00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:19,800 Speaker 1: things that are going to happen anyway, Like kids start school, 751 00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:21,719 Speaker 1: that's a priority for the week. But sometimes even just 752 00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:25,240 Speaker 1: naming them as a priority reminds you that it does matter, 753 00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:27,440 Speaker 1: and they're supposed to have some mental bandwidth, and so 754 00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:29,799 Speaker 1: you can give them the attention they deserve. And then see, oh, well, 755 00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:31,480 Speaker 1: if I've got this big thing going out, I probably 756 00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:35,719 Speaker 1: shouldn't schedule other big things because there is something that's 757 00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:38,360 Speaker 1: going to require a lot of mental bandwidth. But just 758 00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:44,520 Speaker 1: just choose a couple top priorities professionally, personally, relationships and 759 00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:48,600 Speaker 1: see roughly where those can go. Don't assign yourself too 760 00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:51,520 Speaker 1: many things for each day, leave a lot of open space. 761 00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:54,040 Speaker 1: I try to have nothing on Friday because I know 762 00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:56,439 Speaker 1: I will get behind from the other stuff during the week, 763 00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:59,040 Speaker 1: and by having Friday open, that's where it can all go. 764 00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:03,600 Speaker 1: And that helps with it too, So you know, and 765 00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:07,279 Speaker 1: just sort of embrace the more flexible, live and let 766 00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:13,160 Speaker 1: live side of your personality at this point that I 767 00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:17,080 Speaker 1: think sometimes the transition for parenthood is hardest for people 768 00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:20,920 Speaker 1: who are accustomed to having things be absolutely a certain way. 769 00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,520 Speaker 1: And that's fine. I mean, it's often possible to be 770 00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:27,359 Speaker 1: very high achieving in life if that's you. But it's 771 00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:30,680 Speaker 1: a little harder to make that transition than when your 772 00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:35,000 Speaker 1: child doesn't do what your child you know, is supposed 773 00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:38,719 Speaker 1: to do at X time. So yeah, that's what i'd say. 774 00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:41,320 Speaker 1: All right, Well, this has been best of both worlds. 775 00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:44,719 Speaker 1: We've been mostly talking COVID and risk and how we 776 00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:47,839 Speaker 1: should interpret those risks with Kelly Fraden, and we will 777 00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:49,600 Speaker 1: be back next week with more on making work in 778 00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:54,319 Speaker 1: life fit together. Thanks for listening. You can find me 779 00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:58,400 Speaker 1: Sarah at the shoebox dot com or at the Underscore 780 00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:02,400 Speaker 1: Shoebox on Instagram, and you can find me Laura at 781 00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:05,719 Speaker 1: Laura vandercam dot com. This has been the best of 782 00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:09,480 Speaker 1: both Worlds podcasts. Please join us next time for more 783 00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:11,680 Speaker 1: on making work and life work together.