1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,160 Speaker 1: What was that show, Cindy? Do you remember? It was 2 00:00:02,200 --> 00:00:08,160 Speaker 1: a show on own? Recently? Uh? Eve a show about 3 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:10,360 Speaker 1: did you see it? I know you said you don't 4 00:00:10,360 --> 00:00:12,799 Speaker 1: watch too much TV. Dr Lex, Well, no, I got 5 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:16,760 Speaker 1: hating kids, but I don't get to watch make up. 6 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly 7 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small 8 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions 9 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard and Bradford, 10 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:49,680 Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or 11 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:53,200 Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website 12 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 1: at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While I hope 13 00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 1: you love listening to and learning from the podcast, asked, 14 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: it is not meant to be a substitute for a 15 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 1: relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks 16 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 1: so much for joining me for session one sixty four 17 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: of the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. I often hear 18 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: comments about how laborious being in relationships is, and while 19 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:28,960 Speaker 1: of course I recognize that we're coming into relationships with 20 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 1: all of our stuff, and so are our partners, but 21 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 1: I'm often curious about where we give this message is 22 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 1: from and how it has become so ingrained in many 23 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:42,040 Speaker 1: of our minds, So of course I had to bring 24 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 1: in one of my incredible colleagues to chat about it. Today, 25 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 1: we're joined by Dr Lex Brown James. Dr Lex is 26 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 1: an Amazon best selling author of These Are My Eyes, 27 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 1: This is My Nose, This is My Volva, These are 28 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: My toes. And It's a licensed marriage and the therapist 29 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 1: and a sex certified sexuality educator and supervisor. As CEO 30 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 1: of the Institute for Intimacy and Sexuality, Dr Lex helps 31 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:14,880 Speaker 1: couples connect as the couple's clinician. When not in therapy, 32 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 1: she contracts with organizations regarding reproductive justice and accessible comprehensive, 33 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 1: intersectional and anti oppressive sexuality education. Dr Lex and I 34 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 1: chatted about where these messages about partnership come from, what 35 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 1: she considers the real work of partnership to be for 36 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:37,640 Speaker 1: warning signs you want to be on the lookout for 37 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 1: in your relationship, and she shares what vulnerability looks like 38 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: in a partnership. If you notice something that resonates with 39 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:50,080 Speaker 1: you while enjoying our conversation, please share with us on 40 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:55,399 Speaker 1: social media using the hashtag TBG. In session here's our conversation. 41 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 1: But thank you so much for joining us again. Dr Legs, 42 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 1: thank you so much for having me. I love being here. 43 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:06,839 Speaker 1: Always a pleasure, always a pleasure to chat with you. 44 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 1: So I thought that today we could talk a little 45 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 1: bit about just this idea that relationships and long term 46 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:18,960 Speaker 1: partnerships has to be a lot of work. So this 47 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 1: is something that we have kind of heard a lot 48 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: about recently. But it also feels like historically I often 49 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 1: hear people talk about like, oh my goodness, marriage and 50 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:30,680 Speaker 1: partnership is just so hard, and so I just want 51 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 1: to hear your thoughts about, like why we kind of 52 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 1: hear that so often. One of my favorite Facebook means 53 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 1: going around has been I don't want my grandmama's marriage right. 54 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 1: And I've been doing couples therapy for for ten years 55 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 1: now and sex therapy along with that, and oftentimes I 56 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 1: always ask couples who are your models? Who are your 57 00:03:55,040 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: models for positive romantic relationships? And I get most folks 58 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 1: saying like, I didn't really have a model, or they 59 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 1: have like one aunt or maybe a grandparent, but not 60 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 1: a lot of people had models, and we forget that 61 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 1: relationships way back in the day, even though they were 62 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:16,799 Speaker 1: built somewhat the same. Some were monogamous, some had rolling stones, 63 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 1: some were practicing consensual nonmonogamy and just didn't have the 64 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 1: words for it, and they all existed. However, there's just 65 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:32,040 Speaker 1: this lack of understanding with one another, and I think 66 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:36,360 Speaker 1: that's where it gets passed down, where it's women specifically 67 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 1: are told you've got to make sure you have your 68 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:42,600 Speaker 1: own you don't need to be dependent financially, emotionally, whatever, 69 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 1: stability wise on a man. And then all of the 70 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 1: other like political things to happen where men are feeling gutted, 71 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 1: men are feeling like they don't get ownership, men are 72 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:57,279 Speaker 1: feeling like they don't have roles in relationship or they're 73 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 1: not necessarily able to understand how they've been victims of 74 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 1: patriarchy too and haven't had access to their own emotions 75 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 1: for relationships to flourish. So it gets a bad rap. 76 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 1: It gets oh, you gotta do hard work when you 77 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:15,360 Speaker 1: get in a relationship, and that's not true. I mean, 78 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:17,480 Speaker 1: now there is some work to do, right, I mean, 79 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:22,479 Speaker 1: because we're human, But it often sounds like this painstaking, 80 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 1: like why would anybody ever want to sign up for this? Yes, 81 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:29,720 Speaker 1: I agree. I think there is some work to do, 82 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:34,600 Speaker 1: but I don't think that work is always relationship work, right, 83 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 1: So I tell people my job as a therapist is 84 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:40,040 Speaker 1: to take care of the relationship between you two, right, 85 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:42,920 Speaker 1: And I don't think people come to relationships fifty to fifty. 86 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 1: I think you need to come to a relationship a 87 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:49,480 Speaker 1: hunted and a hunting and maybe you like that day 88 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 1: and that's okay. You need to know that, like, hey, babe, 89 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 1: I'm not a hunt it because I'm just like you know, 90 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 1: this is what's going on for me and baby is 91 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 1: gonna be like I bet so what you need for 92 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 1: me to do to support you into a hungry m hmm, right, 93 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:09,039 Speaker 1: And that's how relationships play out. That's where the work is. 94 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 1: It's that coming together. Most people think that they're gonna 95 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:16,360 Speaker 1: solve and be marriage by wrong conflict in the marriage, 96 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 1: and that's not true because there's always gonna be something conflictual. Right, 97 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:23,720 Speaker 1: Something's gonna pop up, whether it's a level one or 98 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:27,039 Speaker 1: a level ten of disaster, something's gonna pop up and 99 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 1: it's going to be conflictual. But that's not what sues 100 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 1: and and helps marriages thrive. It just helps you resolve 101 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 1: conflict a little bit faster. So I'm curious, actor Lex 102 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 1: when you say your job as the couple's therapist is 103 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 1: to help take care of the relationship, and I would 104 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:46,719 Speaker 1: imagine that a part of it is eventually helping the 105 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 1: couple to learn to take care of the relationship. I 106 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 1: want to know what does that look like, taking care 107 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:53,919 Speaker 1: of the relationship as opposed to the two people in 108 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 1: the relationship or the however, many people right right there 109 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:02,720 Speaker 1: for a knowledge in my polly, I'm fans um. Yeah, 110 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:05,600 Speaker 1: So when I take care of our relationship, it's not 111 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 1: my job to like side on you're right, you're wrong, 112 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 1: You need to do this, you need to do that, 113 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 1: which is how people come to arguments, right, And we 114 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 1: have people who hear that little voice in their heads 115 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 1: and they should stop with the argument, but they go 116 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 1: past that little voice and keep on going. And then 117 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 1: we have people who are oftentimes trying to prove their points, 118 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 1: or they're trying to defend themselves from being criticized, or 119 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 1: we have people that just get so overwhelmed they shout 120 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 1: down right, and so they're like, um, nope, I'm good. 121 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 1: And then we have like belligerent folks who are saying, 122 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 1: if you don't get in the ring to fight with me, 123 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 1: and I'm gonna press every trigger that I know to 124 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 1: make sure you're get in the ring to fight with 125 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 1: me to show you that you care about me, then 126 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 1: you don't care. So if we don't have these knocked down, 127 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 1: word based fights, then you don't care because you can 128 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 1: just easily walk away. And these are the things we've 129 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 1: been trained to think through TV, through our own relationships, 130 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:02,119 Speaker 1: and it's not in the really true right. These are 131 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 1: these are actually the horsemen of relationships, as it's stated 132 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 1: by Gottman, that predict the end of relationships. So taking 133 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 1: care of relationships saying, you all have an attachment injury here. 134 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 1: Your bond has literally been attacked by both of your behaviors. 135 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 1: How are you willing to change that in order to 136 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 1: support this bond between you two? Are we gonna be 137 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 1: able to put your pride aside? Right? Because do you 138 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 1: want to be right or do you want to be 139 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 1: in a relationship? M? Yeah, that question comes up often, right, 140 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 1: And then it's also, well, are you going to self 141 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 1: sacrifice for goodness? Because it doesn't seem like it's working. 142 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:44,440 Speaker 1: Both of you are just very unhappy and then and 143 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:46,680 Speaker 1: then oh the number one you probably get this too, 144 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 1: We just need to learn how to communicate better. Well, well, 145 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 1: I think that that is often what we hear, right, 146 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:56,439 Speaker 1: I mean, and so I want to kind of maybe 147 00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:58,199 Speaker 1: use this statements to kind of go back to one 148 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:01,719 Speaker 1: of your earlier statements around like what are our models? 149 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 1: Because I think if you don't necessarily have a lot 150 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 1: of models, we often get a lot of messages that 151 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:12,559 Speaker 1: communication is the thing that is difficult in relationships. Yes, yes, oftentimes, 152 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:14,560 Speaker 1: And I'm I often looked at my couple as I said, 153 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 1: what what about what he just said? Don't you understand? 154 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:20,440 Speaker 1: M So it's not communication, so tell us where it 155 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:27,680 Speaker 1: actually So it's actually a lack of one. Relationships that 156 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:32,080 Speaker 1: lasts are built on friendships and liking. So it's I 157 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:35,720 Speaker 1: like you as a person, I know your character, and 158 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 1: I'm being inmate with you and not necessarily always physical intimacy, 159 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 1: although that's nice to based on whatever your desires and 160 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 1: need an appathite are. It's really saying, hey, I'm taking 161 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 1: this risk, sharing this vulnerability with you, Like I'm a 162 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 1: little bit nervous to tell you I'm embarrassed by it. 163 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 1: I feel shame about it. I'm sad about it, whatever 164 00:09:57,160 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 1: it is. And I want to share this with you 165 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:02,559 Speaker 1: because because you're not going to criticize me, you're not 166 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 1: gonna put me down right, So if I come in 167 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 1: and be like, man, I felt just like Mark was 168 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 1: coming at my neck today, and my lover goes, well, yeah, 169 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 1: it's probably because you run your mouth too much. Right, 170 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna want to talk to you no more. 171 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:20,480 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna want to have conversations. I'm not gonna 172 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 1: feel close with you. So when you try and come 173 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 1: for butt cuddles later, no wait for me. That hurt me. 174 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 1: But we're not taught and trained to say that hurt 175 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 1: or I felt embarrassed or this was really really hard 176 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 1: for me to stay because that's really nervous about your reaction. 177 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 1: We're not taught to say that at all. We're taught 178 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 1: to quote quote be strong, be stoic. And all that 179 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 1: does is you damaged our relationships because it's like, well, 180 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 1: they must have been all right and ain't saying that 181 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:52,439 Speaker 1: about it, so they're cool. And then the last thing 182 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 1: is we reject repair attempts. So I might have been 183 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 1: hurt by what my lover said right, that critical piece 184 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 1: and him coming to me might have been his way 185 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 1: of preparing. I'm saying, like, I know I messed up earlier, 186 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 1: my bad. How about some buck couples right without saying 187 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 1: all of those words, And I'm like, no, I'm so 188 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 1: mad at you by turning away. So we're communicating, We're 189 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 1: using our bodies to communicate, We're sending each other messages. 190 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 1: It's just none of us are being honest in intimate 191 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:26,720 Speaker 1: in our conversations, and our language is what we need. 192 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:30,439 Speaker 1: M So how do you work through that, doctor lex 193 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:33,960 Speaker 1: like the not rejecting the attempts to repair because I 194 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:36,079 Speaker 1: think in the moment And then this maybe goes back 195 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 1: to the other question you had about like do you 196 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 1: want to be right or do you want to be 197 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 1: in relationship right? Because I think you know and I 198 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 1: am guilty of this myself, right, like if I feel 199 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 1: like I just want to hold on to like being mad, 200 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 1: like I don't really want to hear what you gotta 201 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 1: say right now? True? How do you how do you 202 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 1: move past that enough? And it has to almost happen 203 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 1: in the moment, right so that you don't reject the repair? 204 00:11:57,760 --> 00:11:59,440 Speaker 1: How do you kind of get out of your own 205 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 1: ways so that you are not kind of further damaging 206 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:06,199 Speaker 1: the relationship. I actually have all my couples doing anger 207 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:09,440 Speaker 1: iceberg right is something that I use in therapy a lot. 208 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:13,320 Speaker 1: When I talk to people about anger, I say that 209 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 1: it is a response emotion. There's usually a primary emotion. 210 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:22,080 Speaker 1: So anger is a fire. It is hot. It can 211 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:24,560 Speaker 1: punish people that you're met at, it can burn them, 212 00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:29,320 Speaker 1: it gets people away from you. All fires need fuel, right, 213 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 1: and that fuel is typically the other emotions. So anger 214 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 1: is only the tip of the iceberg. It's only the 215 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:39,200 Speaker 1: part that hangs out the water that you see up 216 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 1: under the water the rest of the iceberg or all 217 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 1: the other feelings. So dr joy. If I said your 218 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 1: mom was so fat when she jumped up in the sky, 219 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:51,320 Speaker 1: she gets stuck and everybody laughs, you might show me anger. 220 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 1: But what if your mom really is a fat, bodied 221 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 1: person and you're embarrassed by it, or you're ashamed by it, 222 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 1: or you feel are really really sad. It's not safe 223 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 1: to show me those feelings, so you show me anger instead. 224 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Plantings somebody who hurt you can feel really good, 225 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 1: but it damages the relationship. Between you, So you gotta 226 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 1: get up underneath that anger, saying what are the feelings 227 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 1: that fuel the fire? And oftentimes it takes a little 228 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 1: bit for us to explore, and that means we've got 229 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 1: to recalibrate on our own. So whatever your self caring is, personally, 230 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 1: I like to beat up a bag of ice with 231 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 1: a meat mallet when I'm really upset. It is cheap 232 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 1: and it is a satisfying crutch in my bathtub, and 233 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:42,960 Speaker 1: I get to destroy something that is not gonna cost 234 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:46,680 Speaker 1: me an insurance claim to repair or to replace. But 235 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 1: it gets out my my woes and my angst and 236 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 1: it feels really good. And at the end of the day, 237 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:54,960 Speaker 1: it's water and a dollar ninety nine. But I have 238 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 1: to recalibrate. Yeah, so you're saying that instead of saying, 239 00:13:57,880 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 1: like I don't want to be bothered right now, I 240 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 1: should be able to acknowledge, like, wow, I'm still really hurt. 241 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 1: So I might not necessarily want to reconnect right now, 242 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 1: but I am acknowledging that you're trying to repair exactly 243 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:13,680 Speaker 1: like baby, what you're doing, like you love it, just 244 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:15,559 Speaker 1: not right now. I'm not ready to engage this way 245 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 1: with you. I'm not like I need to do some 246 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 1: self care. I need to do some self work. And 247 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 1: it takes at least half an hour. People be like, 248 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 1: I'm gonna take ten minutes. I'm gonna go breathe, Like, no, 249 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 1: go ahead, extend that on out, Go ahead watching Netflix show, 250 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 1: take a really long shower, wash your hair, whatever, take 251 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 1: a couple of Take an hour at least, or maybe 252 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 1: half an hour, but take an hour at least to 253 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 1: be like, let me just calm down, let me do 254 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:46,960 Speaker 1: some self reflection, and then I'll be more responsive to 255 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 1: hearing you, and vice versa. The other person needs to 256 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 1: get other feeling too, feeling rejected or feeling unwanted and 257 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 1: then wanting to punish their partner back to or wanting 258 00:14:57,640 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 1: to say like well you don't want me, and needing 259 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:02,840 Speaker 1: to be more validated. And then you're away from the 260 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 1: original issue, right, which is, hey, I was really hurt 261 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 1: right today, right because now at this point, now we're 262 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 1: just kind of in a tip for tat battle about 263 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 1: like who's going to hold out the longest in terms 264 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:18,000 Speaker 1: of reconnecting. Yeah, yeah, so you mentioned a little earlier, 265 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 1: and I want to go back to this because I 266 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 1: don't know that this is something we've talked about on 267 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 1: the podcast before, one of the horsemen in terms of 268 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 1: a relationship, and so I know that there are four. 269 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 1: So can you share with us the four horsemen when 270 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 1: we talk about relationships? Yes, So I like to remember 271 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:38,120 Speaker 1: cdc s like the cd you know you're in Atlanta 272 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 1: the senor control right, right, And so I'm gonna skip 273 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: one of the seeds and come back to it. But 274 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 1: the first see is criticism, and criticism is not necessarily 275 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 1: criticizing a behavior like oh, baby, you always put the 276 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:57,360 Speaker 1: diaper on the baby wrong. That's not what it means. 277 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 1: It means you're CHRISTI first since personhood, you are so lazy. 278 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 1: How come whenever I come home there is nothing ever done. 279 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:13,800 Speaker 1: We've both been at work and you're always like this, right, 280 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 1: So you're criticizing the essence of a person and it 281 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 1: can really destroy them. The D is for defensiveness. So 282 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 1: defensiveness raises its head when you're perceiving an attack. And 283 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 1: I know defensiveness has a whole like trigger warning, and 284 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 1: so does trigger at this point, and so everybody gets 285 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 1: in their fields whenever these words are thrown around. Um. 286 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 1: But for defensiveness, this person really is saying, I think 287 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 1: you're gonna attack me. It often comes when this person 288 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 1: is with somebody who is critical and a criticizer, and 289 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 1: with that defensiveness, they say, I'm preparing myself for an attack. 290 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 1: You could even see a person start to um act 291 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 1: like a kid in a way. It's really interesting to 292 00:16:57,320 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: see that. They're just like, Wow, this whole adult just 293 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 1: came a whole child right in front of me, and 294 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 1: they're saying, why are you always attacking me? I didn't 295 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 1: do anything. I'm tired too, And their voice can modulate 296 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:13,160 Speaker 1: and it can change. They oftentimes try and spend tables around. 297 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 1: I was like, uh no, no, not not super useful, 298 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:20,399 Speaker 1: because then they can't engage and they don't really take 299 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 1: accountability of responsibility for their part. Not the whole responsibility pie, 300 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 1: just a piece of responsibility packed. I'm gonna skip the 301 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:31,440 Speaker 1: second seat and come back to it. But the last 302 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 1: one is s and this is my personal favorite. I'm 303 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 1: really good at stonewalling. I am a stonewaller. I want 304 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 1: to watch an entire half of basketball while my lover 305 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 1: calls my whole government name because I was upset and 306 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:53,400 Speaker 1: I was done right there there's a thing you might see, 307 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:55,680 Speaker 1: Like black people say like this ain't what you want. 308 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 1: Right before they're like done, I was done, and when 309 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 1: I I'm done with something. Stone wallers are exactly what 310 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 1: it says. They turned to a stone wall. It's like 311 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:08,879 Speaker 1: talking to a stone wall. They are not moved, they 312 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:12,520 Speaker 1: are not engaging. They are shut down. You can be 313 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 1: tuned out. They are no longer giving you active listening cues. 314 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 1: My lover at the time, I think, danced in front 315 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:22,120 Speaker 1: of my face for a minute to try and get 316 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 1: my attention. And I swear I looked through him like 317 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:28,440 Speaker 1: his mama drank windex. I could see straight through him. 318 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:32,639 Speaker 1: I had no issues whatsoever, because I was flooded emotionally. 319 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: My anxiety peaked. I was angry, I was hurt. There 320 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:38,879 Speaker 1: were no words to convey that, and I was just done. 321 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:42,879 Speaker 1: And those people typically are the ones who specifically that 322 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:46,200 Speaker 1: at least thirty minutes to calm down, to come back 323 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 1: to themselves, to defrag if you will. And then the 324 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 1: last one is contempt. So contempt is the worst of 325 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:04,440 Speaker 1: all of these. Um. Contempt is criticism plus moral superiority. 326 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:08,240 Speaker 1: So it's I'm gonna criticize you and pick you a 327 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 1: part of your personhood and remind you that I'm better 328 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:14,680 Speaker 1: than you m You're lucky to have me. Who would 329 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 1: want somebody so lazy? I did all of this today, 330 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 1: and you only did that typical huh, you're really gonna 331 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:27,639 Speaker 1: wear that? I don't know. Your body isn't what it 332 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 1: used to be, like I can still fit my jeans, 333 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 1: blah blah blah blah blah. And it's dangerous. All of 334 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:38,960 Speaker 1: these are dangerous, but contempt is the hardest one to 335 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 1: come back from. And for every one instance of any 336 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 1: of these criticism, contempt, stonewalling, defensiveness, you need at least 337 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 1: five moments of intimacy to counteract it. That's how toxic 338 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:56,119 Speaker 1: they are. Five It's a five one ratio. And if 339 00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:59,160 Speaker 1: that ratio starts to get off, it is a predictability 340 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 1: of divorce and ending a relationship. Mm hmmm. So this is, 341 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 1: of course, all of the work that the Gotmans have 342 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 1: done in their love lad of examining all of these 343 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 1: behaviors in couples. Exactly, exactly, Yeah, And so why do 344 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:19,640 Speaker 1: you think contempt is the most dangerous one? I think 345 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 1: because it puts people out of automatic one down, one up. 346 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:28,280 Speaker 1: And when we say that in in family systems speak, 347 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 1: we mean that it means one person is prioritize and 348 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 1: seemingly more important than another person, and it means you're 349 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:39,640 Speaker 1: no longer on the equal footing. Remember if I said, 350 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:42,440 Speaker 1: if you have a controlationship behind a hunting m hmm, 351 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 1: you're not on equal footing and that one up one 352 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:48,199 Speaker 1: down space. So it can feel like one person is 353 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 1: trying to make themselves better in order to be worthy, 354 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 1: got it? Okay? Okay? So speaking of this coming to 355 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 1: a relationship one one hundred, I think that there is 356 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:04,880 Speaker 1: some confusion about how to do that when we know 357 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:07,440 Speaker 1: that we are all works in progress, right, Like none 358 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:11,120 Speaker 1: of us is completely together all the time, And so 359 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:13,720 Speaker 1: what does this mean to like come to a relationship 360 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:15,679 Speaker 1: one hundred one hundred? Like, how can you do that 361 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:18,440 Speaker 1: if there are still some things you know in your 362 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 1: personal history that you're working through, Like what does that 363 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:23,720 Speaker 1: even look like? Right? So this is when one of 364 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 1: my big favorite therapy words come into play, differentiation, differentiation 365 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:32,640 Speaker 1: and differentiation if you want to go look it up, 366 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 1: is a Bowen bo w eaton theory piece of it 367 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 1: that says that you are able to separate your thoughts 368 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:46,680 Speaker 1: and your feelings, and you're able to separate your thoughts 369 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 1: and your feelings from your family of origin and from 370 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:53,560 Speaker 1: your lover or lovers. Right, So these are my thoughts, 371 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:56,160 Speaker 1: these are my feelings. How does that family usually think 372 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 1: about this? Can I not think the same as my 373 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:02,159 Speaker 1: fai Emily and that be okay? Or is that going 374 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:04,359 Speaker 1: to make me really anxious uncomfortable? And I'm just gonna 375 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:07,639 Speaker 1: go with the flow. Same with my lover. Can we 376 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 1: have different thoughts or different views and that be okay? 377 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 1: It's not a super huge conflict depending on what's going on, 378 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: and we can still come together and talk about it 379 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:25,639 Speaker 1: and share. So it's really go ahead, now, you go ahead? No, 380 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 1: I was gonna say so. The one one hundred dozen 381 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:30,640 Speaker 1: really focus on whether you still have work to do 382 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:33,159 Speaker 1: on yourself. It really is more about, like, can you 383 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:35,879 Speaker 1: show up in this relationship and claim ownership of your 384 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:39,600 Speaker 1: own thoughts and feelings and know the difference exactly? Because 385 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:42,200 Speaker 1: what we see and we see couples they get really 386 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:45,919 Speaker 1: really close and comfy. The word is fused where they 387 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 1: start to think like one person, right, or they start 388 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 1: to exist as one person when they're they're two separate entities. 389 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 1: So if um dr. Joy, if your lover was really 390 00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 1: really mad at I don't know a coworker, it is 391 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,359 Speaker 1: not your job to call that coworker and be like, 392 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:05,400 Speaker 1: why I heard you had did this to my lover 393 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 1: and me you got beat now, Like, that's not that's 394 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 1: not your physician, it's not your role, all right. You 395 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 1: trust your lover to handle his disputes and how they're 396 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 1: comfortable or uncomfortable. But you say, hey, babe, I can 397 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 1: support you, I can get ear to listen. I can 398 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:24,840 Speaker 1: help you problem solved if you like. And you might 399 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:27,399 Speaker 1: be upset that they're upset, but you're not going to 400 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 1: step outside of that to go take care of the 401 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 1: issue for them because those aren't your feelings. Those are 402 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 1: your lovers feelings. So you don't have enough of that. 403 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 1: So what kind of like complications might we cause in 404 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:45,080 Speaker 1: our relationship if we're not differentiated enough. So when you're 405 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 1: not differentiated, sometimes it can look like you can isolate 406 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:54,960 Speaker 1: from others, one which is ostracizing. You still need your 407 00:23:54,960 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 1: own independent likes, hobbies, time to yourself, and then too, 408 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,480 Speaker 1: when there are those things that you don't agree on, 409 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,679 Speaker 1: it can start to feel intimidating and threatening to the 410 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 1: actual moment you have. What do you mean we both 411 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:15,000 Speaker 1: don't think that this is the way that you're supposed 412 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:18,639 Speaker 1: to make Ravioli. Huh, Well, what else do you not 413 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 1: agree with me on? And so it makes it harder 414 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 1: to start to have these conversations of intricacies and nuances 415 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 1: and differences when those are what make us quirky and 416 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 1: what makes us separate and priceless in the world. Right, 417 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:37,639 Speaker 1: it's our uniqueness, And so you can lose some of 418 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 1: that and then also lose some of the trust. Well, 419 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 1: my lover won't like me if they know that this 420 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:44,480 Speaker 1: is something that I want to do or this is 421 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,400 Speaker 1: something I find interesting. And for some people that's true. 422 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 1: There are hard limits for all folks. Some people are 423 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 1: just like, Nope, that's not my thing. I don't want 424 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,359 Speaker 1: to be with a lover who thinks this way. I'm good. 425 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,639 Speaker 1: But that risk of silencing yourself also starts to create 426 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 1: this and so you don't get to get as close 427 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 1: to your lever and maintain a romantic and carrying bond, 428 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 1: and you have the opportunity in space to to break 429 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 1: that bond or to cause an attachment injury. Like I said, 430 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:16,359 Speaker 1: so step out of that relationship because you might have 431 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,240 Speaker 1: that need met somewhere else. It can become really risk 432 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 1: m hm. And is this the same place where we 433 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 1: would see some of this ride or die thinking come 434 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 1: into play a doctor lex Yes. Yes, Um, I don't 435 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:32,719 Speaker 1: know where that mentality came from, like I don't even 436 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:35,120 Speaker 1: know where we're going, and what's gonna happen. Who's gonna 437 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:40,199 Speaker 1: be there before before we ride or dying? Um? No, 438 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,359 Speaker 1: thank you, But yes, it's it's where we see either 439 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:45,440 Speaker 1: you down from me or you not. It's really all 440 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:48,960 Speaker 1: or nothing level of either you show up for me 441 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:52,040 Speaker 1: with no questions asked, or you're not really for me. 442 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:56,000 Speaker 1: And that's not necessarily true, right because we're whole rounded people. 443 00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:00,400 Speaker 1: It's not just split decisions. It's context of I want 444 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 1: to make sure you're safe. I want to make sure 445 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:05,159 Speaker 1: i'm safe too, and I have I stand on my 446 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 1: own two feet here. I will support you, but it's 447 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 1: not my job to take this over and fix it 448 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:13,280 Speaker 1: for you, and that can lead to a lot of resentment. 449 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:15,120 Speaker 1: That can lead to a lot of resentment of I'm 450 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:17,840 Speaker 1: taking care of everybody in this relationship and I'm tired 451 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:24,119 Speaker 1: on either party. Yeah yeah, So Dr Lex, how do 452 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:27,640 Speaker 1: you call out differentiation to a couple, because I would 453 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 1: imagine that for some people this happens unconsciously and they 454 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:34,240 Speaker 1: don't even know that it's happening in their relationship. You 455 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 1: are so right. I am experiential in the therapy room. 456 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:41,879 Speaker 1: I like for my couples within reason to get up 457 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:45,359 Speaker 1: and move their bodies. So I have them do David 458 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 1: Snarches differentiation stance, and the way they do this is 459 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 1: really fun. So they make their palms kiss, so it's 460 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: like a high five that has to stay there. And 461 00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:58,359 Speaker 1: they do this in both hands, and they stand on 462 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:00,720 Speaker 1: their own two feet, and then I have them step 463 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:05,919 Speaker 1: backwards while maintaining the palm to palm contact, and so 464 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 1: I get them to a point where they're really leaning 465 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:09,880 Speaker 1: in on each other. So it's really an upside down 466 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:14,960 Speaker 1: b and we talk about what's comfortable for them, and 467 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:17,920 Speaker 1: what we'll find is is that some couples really really 468 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:21,400 Speaker 1: like that leaning in on each other. It feels good. 469 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:24,879 Speaker 1: It's I know my lover is they're they're pressing back 470 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:28,119 Speaker 1: on me. It feels really comfortable. I know if I 471 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 1: take them away, then I'll fall, and they'll fall. So 472 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:36,000 Speaker 1: we have to be in this together. And when an actuality, 473 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:41,120 Speaker 1: that's what codependency looks like, right, It's it's where you're 474 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,959 Speaker 1: depending on a person for holding you up and lifting 475 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,680 Speaker 1: you up instead of standing on your own feet. Differentiation 476 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,640 Speaker 1: looks like standing on your own two feet and offering 477 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,879 Speaker 1: your hand to your lover and your partner. It's just 478 00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 1: scarier because a person standing up on their own two 479 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 1: feet who is saying, let my palms meet your palms, 480 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:07,119 Speaker 1: you can easily take their palms away and walk away. 481 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,480 Speaker 1: And that gets really scary for folks because they can 482 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,879 Speaker 1: choose somewhat easily to not be a part of that 483 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 1: relationship anymore. And so when I used this, usually around 484 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 1: sessions three and four, most of my couples don't come 485 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:27,680 Speaker 1: more than like fifteen sessions. So later on, let's say 486 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 1: sessions like eight through ten, when we're in a real 487 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,720 Speaker 1: sweet spot and meat of work, and my couples will 488 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:35,120 Speaker 1: come back and be like, oh, I was leaning in 489 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:40,360 Speaker 1: right there. Okay, yep, I see it, So I need 490 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 1: to stand back up, and I'm like, yes, now, how 491 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:44,800 Speaker 1: do we get you there? And so they start to 492 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 1: recognize when you're losing that differentiation for one another. Wow, 493 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,920 Speaker 1: So there is so much picked into that one exercise. Yes, 494 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 1: this was one of my favorite. I've never heard of 495 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 1: this one. See. This is why I love having such 496 00:28:57,440 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 1: a life variety of people, because I don't do a 497 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 1: couple of work. Right, so I've never heard of this exercise. Um, so, 498 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 1: how far into like maybe a couple's work would you 499 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 1: do this? Well, it really depends on the context of 500 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:13,480 Speaker 1: the couple. Right Again, I have such a range. Um. 501 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 1: This is usually when people are like, well, we just 502 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,960 Speaker 1: fight and and I'm starting to see that it's not 503 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 1: necessarily the fighting, it's the lack of vulnerability that you're 504 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 1: doing with one another. And when I start to see 505 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 1: that theme emerge, I'm like, ah, let's do this stance 506 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 1: and they clicks for them, they're like, oh, and so 507 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 1: later down the line, so maybe maybe like session three four, 508 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:40,800 Speaker 1: which is pretty early on, but down the line, so 509 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 1: let's say maybe eight ten. Most of my couples don't 510 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 1: co pass like fifteen and twenty sessions. They're like, oh, 511 00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:53,440 Speaker 1: I was leaning in again, huh yep. So that becomes 512 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,280 Speaker 1: then like this beautiful metaphor for them to do the 513 00:29:56,320 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 1: work both in session and out exactly exactly. And question 514 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 1: is how are you making it safe for your partner 515 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 1: to ask for help? Mm hmmm. They're like, oh so 516 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:08,239 Speaker 1: I just had my hands up, I would edit him 517 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,840 Speaker 1: my hands out. And I'm like, right, there's a difference. 518 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:14,680 Speaker 1: You've got to be there to say, like, I'm I 519 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:17,719 Speaker 1: can support you. You want to support all right, it's 520 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:20,200 Speaker 1: not completely hands off, like that's why you have a 521 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 1: lover to have some support. But when are you leaning 522 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:25,800 Speaker 1: in and when are you standing on your own feet? 523 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:29,520 Speaker 1: And you're like, yep, no, those aren't all of my feelings, Roger, 524 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:34,000 Speaker 1: that right. So something you just said und your legs 525 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 1: gave me this thought. Um, And I want to talk 526 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:40,960 Speaker 1: more about like what vulnerability actually looks like in partnership 527 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,560 Speaker 1: because I think that there is a way where you 528 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:48,000 Speaker 1: can and maybe some of this differentiation stuff or something 529 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:52,720 Speaker 1: else where you can like beat having like what seems 530 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:56,760 Speaker 1: like deep conversations with your partner but you're not actually 531 00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 1: being vulnerable. M h do you know what was talking about? 532 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 1: So I want to know, like what does vulnerability look 533 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:06,280 Speaker 1: like as opposed to like us just having maybe fake 534 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:13,800 Speaker 1: deep conversations. Oh I'm fake deep conversation here, right, child, 535 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:16,800 Speaker 1: they give me a headache. Although you'd be surprised how 536 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:19,680 Speaker 1: many couples I get who don't even start off on 537 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 1: the fake deep conversation. Um. And you know what my 538 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 1: sexuality work. I get couples who never talk about their 539 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 1: sexual fantasies with one another, and I'm like, huh, that's interesting. 540 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,320 Speaker 1: What's what in the way because they don't feel safe, 541 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 1: they don't feel good enough, they don't feel validated by 542 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:44,040 Speaker 1: their partners. Right. So, true vulnerability means I'm gonna take 543 00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:48,160 Speaker 1: a risk and trust you with something, and I trust 544 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 1: that you're gonna accept me. Right. You're not gonna put 545 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 1: me down, you're not gonna judge, you're not gonna try 546 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 1: and fix it, You're just gonna accept it. And then 547 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:00,840 Speaker 1: you share. Now, I don't mean on your first date 548 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:03,239 Speaker 1: that you're trying to test your your intimacy by like 549 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 1: giving your deepest, darkest things that you've never told anybody before. 550 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:10,200 Speaker 1: That's not what this looks like. This looks like over time, 551 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:14,480 Speaker 1: you're building trust. Over time, you're feeling supported. Over time, 552 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 1: you're feeling connected and seen and heard. Right, and then 553 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:23,120 Speaker 1: you say, I just shared something really really intimate with 554 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:25,400 Speaker 1: you and that felt really good. Thanks for hearing me up. 555 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 1: And it's reciprocal. M right, It's not just one sided. 556 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 1: It's saying like, I know you have stuff like that too, 557 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 1: what is it? Or I had this fleeting thought today 558 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:39,600 Speaker 1: and I'll give you extemple My my my husband. I 559 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:43,520 Speaker 1: never called him that my lover. UM. I knew he 560 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 1: really really cared for me because one day he called 561 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:50,680 Speaker 1: me during work hours, which was rare, and he started 562 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:55,240 Speaker 1: venting about his day and I was like, I never 563 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:58,000 Speaker 1: heard this from you before, homie, what is coming? Ah, 564 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 1: you're feeling some stuff today. Let me listen, right, And 565 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:05,800 Speaker 1: he just started like laying out his level of frustration 566 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 1: and I was just there and I'm like, I'm sorry, 567 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:10,880 Speaker 1: you know that's really hard. Is there anything I can 568 00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:13,680 Speaker 1: do for you? And he was like, nah, I hate 569 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 1: that chicken you made. That made me feel better. I 570 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:19,240 Speaker 1: was like, cool, I'm glad you had that and we 571 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:21,480 Speaker 1: were able to move move forward. But I knew that 572 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,080 Speaker 1: was him sharing with me something that he doesn't do 573 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:28,040 Speaker 1: with every single other person, right, And so it's that 574 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,200 Speaker 1: that specialized I'm here for you and all of a 575 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 1: sudden have to be deep but then have to be 576 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,520 Speaker 1: like this was my childhood and this was hard. It 577 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:39,400 Speaker 1: could be like, you know what, I have some future 578 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,240 Speaker 1: goals and I don't feel like I can achieve them, babe, 579 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:44,840 Speaker 1: and that really sucks today. Or I feel like I 580 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:46,800 Speaker 1: have some future goals and I want to achieve them 581 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:48,520 Speaker 1: and I think you could help me. Will you listen 582 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:51,600 Speaker 1: to them? Right? So, it doesn't have to be something 583 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:55,960 Speaker 1: downtrodden and traumatic, but it's something that's close to your heart, 584 00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:58,560 Speaker 1: is in your spirit, and you're sharing that with them 585 00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 1: and you're trusting them with it and they're not going 586 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:04,040 Speaker 1: to weaponize against you or put you down forward criticize 587 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:07,960 Speaker 1: you for it. And I'm wondering, Dr Lex, how can 588 00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:10,040 Speaker 1: you tell? So I guess this is the point where 589 00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:12,640 Speaker 1: you're talking about like you're kind of gradually building this 590 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,680 Speaker 1: or you start by sharing something pretty small and then 591 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:20,959 Speaker 1: kind of gradually increase with what you're sharing. Right, Right, 592 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,480 Speaker 1: it is gradual because, like I said, relationships that thrive 593 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:28,799 Speaker 1: are built on friendships. Mm hmm. Right. Saying like this, 594 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:30,600 Speaker 1: I mean you don't have to be your best friend 595 00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:33,120 Speaker 1: best friend. I have an ultimate homie who is not 596 00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:37,799 Speaker 1: my lover and as my ultimate homie, right, and I 597 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:40,440 Speaker 1: can exist differently with both of those folks and it 598 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:44,200 Speaker 1: doesn't make anything anymore or less intimate. But you can 599 00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:47,399 Speaker 1: tell aby how they show up, right. So, if you're 600 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:50,000 Speaker 1: feeling like your relationship is really one sided where you're 601 00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 1: the rest of it for all of the stuff, all 602 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:55,520 Speaker 1: of the time, and you can never share your stuff, 603 00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:59,839 Speaker 1: that's an indicator that true intimacy isn't there. If you're 604 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,560 Speaker 1: scared to share these things because you're afraid of being 605 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:07,359 Speaker 1: judged or put down, that your intimacy isn't fair. Right, 606 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:09,360 Speaker 1: If you're not feeling like this person is a friend 607 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:12,239 Speaker 1: and you have to side out your lover, there's a 608 00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:16,040 Speaker 1: question about intimacy there. So you can tell about your 609 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:18,279 Speaker 1: you trust your gut here, you're like, you know what 610 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,359 Speaker 1: this this feels good. I see this person showing up 611 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:23,600 Speaker 1: and I also see this person willing to engage with me. 612 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:29,320 Speaker 1: And as you as you talk, Dr Lex, I'm wondering 613 00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:33,320 Speaker 1: if the ways in which we kind of talk about 614 00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:37,359 Speaker 1: dating or not completely off base. What do you mean? 615 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:40,480 Speaker 1: So as you're talking so much about like friendships and 616 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:43,640 Speaker 1: like really liking somebody and that really being the key 617 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:48,160 Speaker 1: to um like long term partnership or marriage. It's not 618 00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:52,160 Speaker 1: always what's happening in in dating, right, so so much 619 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:54,600 Speaker 1: of it is about chemistry and even like do I 620 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:57,000 Speaker 1: feel attracted to this person and all of that stuff? 621 00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:58,719 Speaker 1: And I think that that there is some of the 622 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:01,400 Speaker 1: like Okay, can I spend with this person? But I 623 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,040 Speaker 1: don't know that that is like the driving force for 624 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:06,279 Speaker 1: a lot of people, like this idea of like do 625 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:09,120 Speaker 1: I like this person? Do I genuinely feel like this 626 00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:11,560 Speaker 1: is the homie? Right, like this is a great friend 627 00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:14,880 Speaker 1: of mine? Mm hmm, yeah, yeah, no, because people are 628 00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 1: laid by their loins and you know, I enjoy a 629 00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:23,760 Speaker 1: good you know, loin lead session every now forget. However, 630 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:26,320 Speaker 1: that doesn't mean if that's the person you're supposed to 631 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:28,399 Speaker 1: be be with for the rest of your life. Or 632 00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:32,040 Speaker 1: they're led by just commitment, right, So maybe they don't 633 00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:34,360 Speaker 1: have that friendship. Maybe they're like I have passion and 634 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:38,080 Speaker 1: I have commitment and that's good enough for me, and 635 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:40,359 Speaker 1: is that good enough for you? Like do you really 636 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:42,759 Speaker 1: know this person? There are situations we know that people 637 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:47,400 Speaker 1: are set up for relationships. Um, people have faith based 638 00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:50,759 Speaker 1: and that's how they figure out their relationships. And maybe 639 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:53,640 Speaker 1: they haven't gotten to know a person early. People sometimes 640 00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:57,879 Speaker 1: feel like clocks are ticking or they're like, it's later 641 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:00,800 Speaker 1: in life, and I really just want to bond with somebody, 642 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:03,000 Speaker 1: and this person looks good and it's healthy, so let's 643 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:07,640 Speaker 1: do it. So all of those things. Yeah, dating sometimes 644 00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:09,960 Speaker 1: we don't. But sometimes we feel like the time is 645 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:12,719 Speaker 1: running out. And now if we were talking about like 646 00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:16,680 Speaker 1: COVID and all that stuff going on, it does feel 647 00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:20,839 Speaker 1: like we time is of the essence, and compatibility is 648 00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:23,040 Speaker 1: limited and who you get to see and how you 649 00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:26,400 Speaker 1: get to get to folks. There's also a scarcity mentality, 650 00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:30,800 Speaker 1: the idea that there's not enough to go around, enough people, 651 00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:35,160 Speaker 1: enough love, enough whatever to go around. So I gotta 652 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:36,920 Speaker 1: get with somebody and stick it out with them and 653 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:40,920 Speaker 1: just make it work because this is as good as 654 00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:43,080 Speaker 1: it's gonna get. There's nobody else out there, or I 655 00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:45,799 Speaker 1: spent so long trying to find this one person. I 656 00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,280 Speaker 1: can't go back out there again trying to find somebody else, 657 00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:53,239 Speaker 1: right right, Yeah, a lot of factors there. Yeah, so 658 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:55,520 Speaker 1: something else. And I do not want to miss this 659 00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:57,800 Speaker 1: that I made a note of myself and I've forgotten 660 00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:00,759 Speaker 1: now I just remembered your earlier comment just about like 661 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:03,640 Speaker 1: the lack of models we sometimes have in terms of 662 00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:07,319 Speaker 1: relationships also makes me think of this whole idea of 663 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:14,680 Speaker 1: hashtag relationship goals, right, and so we sometimes idolize celebrities 664 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:18,239 Speaker 1: are people we see on Instagram or you know, like 665 00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:20,919 Speaker 1: all of these people that we don't actually have real 666 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:25,360 Speaker 1: relationships with and make them our relationship goals. And so 667 00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:28,640 Speaker 1: I am wondering your thoughts about that and maybe some 668 00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:31,560 Speaker 1: of the dangers of you know, kind of this hashtag 669 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:35,960 Speaker 1: relationship goals idea. You know, Um, I think sexologist Shamira 670 00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:40,520 Speaker 1: says it, which is like be your own relationship goals, um. 671 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:45,320 Speaker 1: And I love that wholeheartedly, wholeheartedly because I don't I 672 00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:49,320 Speaker 1: don't necessarily see as many people looking up to celebrities, 673 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:51,560 Speaker 1: even though I don't exist. I see people looking up 674 00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:55,920 Speaker 1: to the deacon and deaconess in their church, or the 675 00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:58,680 Speaker 1: couple that's been married for forty five years and that 676 00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:01,719 Speaker 1: are happy now despite the fact that they struggled through 677 00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:05,320 Speaker 1: the first thirty years of their marriage. That struggle of 678 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:08,160 Speaker 1: that's what it is. If you really we'll struggle together 679 00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:12,799 Speaker 1: and we'll come out on others. So why why why 680 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:15,959 Speaker 1: are we suffering on purpose, Like, I don't. I don't 681 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:19,080 Speaker 1: think that's gonna get you any extra relationship points or kudos. 682 00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:23,799 Speaker 1: So yeah, those relationship goals. I I definitely think you 683 00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:27,280 Speaker 1: have to set what you want right and attainable standards. 684 00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:32,319 Speaker 1: So I don't know, maybe like you have some characteristics 685 00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:34,960 Speaker 1: that you really really want, that are really really important 686 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:36,920 Speaker 1: to you and that you value, and then you can 687 00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:40,719 Speaker 1: be flexible and some others and see where people are 688 00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:44,280 Speaker 1: so you can can vet out like will this person 689 00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:46,160 Speaker 1: be a good match for me? Do I feel safe 690 00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:48,880 Speaker 1: with this person? Can I build a friendship with this person? 691 00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:52,920 Speaker 1: Am I learning and growing with this person? Because you've 692 00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:55,080 Speaker 1: got to figure that out for yourself. Everybody is different 693 00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:58,440 Speaker 1: and once different things and has different values and how 694 00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:02,840 Speaker 1: they prioritize those values and relationships it's gonna be what matters. 695 00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:07,759 Speaker 1: So yes, admire that cute Instagram couple, cheer on the 696 00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:11,600 Speaker 1: Hollywood couple that is making it and doing it, and 697 00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:17,759 Speaker 1: then figure out what works for you. Yeah, alright, has 698 00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:22,040 Speaker 1: that differentiation. So going back to kind of how we 699 00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:25,399 Speaker 1: started this conversation and you just mentioned it again, it 700 00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:30,000 Speaker 1: does feel like there is some thinking that like the 701 00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:33,920 Speaker 1: relationship is stronger if it has been like tested by 702 00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:38,400 Speaker 1: fire m And so I want to know is there 703 00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:40,960 Speaker 1: any validity to that? Like, can you have just as 704 00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:45,120 Speaker 1: strong of a relationship if you do not have to 705 00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:48,880 Speaker 1: like deal with overcoming infidelity or you know, something major 706 00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:52,719 Speaker 1: happening if you just kind of live a regular like 707 00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:55,879 Speaker 1: you know, we fight about dishes and who didn't wash 708 00:40:55,920 --> 00:41:02,120 Speaker 1: the clothes kind of like regular regular regular is Yeah, 709 00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:04,839 Speaker 1: So what's funny is I can't I've been asking people 710 00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:06,640 Speaker 1: for this word. There's some word. I don't know what 711 00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:09,160 Speaker 1: it is. Nobody else know what it is. But it's 712 00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:12,279 Speaker 1: akin to trauma bond, which is something that happens like 713 00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:16,440 Speaker 1: in abusive relationships. But this type of bond actually happens 714 00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:21,960 Speaker 1: when life is difficult. So, um, your mama gostick, or 715 00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:24,960 Speaker 1: you lost the pet, you had a really hard semester 716 00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:29,080 Speaker 1: at school, you're changing jobs, right, and life is hard, 717 00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:37,240 Speaker 1: and that romantic interest, maybe that loring, lusty lover, whoever 718 00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:40,960 Speaker 1: it was, showed up for you in ways that you needed, 719 00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:42,839 Speaker 1: that helped take care of you join it really really 720 00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:45,640 Speaker 1: hard time. So we we all know that the brain 721 00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:50,680 Speaker 1: has oxytocin, right, the happiness hormone and things that you 722 00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:54,160 Speaker 1: get after sex and orgasm. You get the same feeling. 723 00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:56,759 Speaker 1: It's the same hormone that's released when you look at 724 00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:01,520 Speaker 1: a newborn baby after birth. It's feel good hormone. Right. 725 00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:05,200 Speaker 1: People don't know it's about beso pressing and so veso 726 00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:08,040 Speaker 1: president is a hormone that tells you to be in 727 00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:13,640 Speaker 1: relationship with somebody. It says, hey, you should boo up 728 00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:17,880 Speaker 1: with them and don't they make you happy? Right? Oxytocin 729 00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:23,640 Speaker 1: because it gets coupled together and it's excreted during times 730 00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:29,640 Speaker 1: when things are really really hard, so it usually can 731 00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:32,200 Speaker 1: it can last anywhere up to like two years. So 732 00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:34,520 Speaker 1: if you're a person listening to this, then you realize 733 00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:36,399 Speaker 1: that you want to get out of a relationship every 734 00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:41,040 Speaker 1: two years. That might be veso preson talking interesting. So 735 00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:44,520 Speaker 1: beso preson is not secreted in like times when you're 736 00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:47,080 Speaker 1: really excited, only when you're like kind of really stressed, 737 00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:51,040 Speaker 1: when you're really stressed. It's it's excreted both, but it 738 00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:54,319 Speaker 1: does accompany oxytocin in times when it's a lot of 739 00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:58,040 Speaker 1: stress and dressed god it okay, it tells you bond 740 00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:02,640 Speaker 1: bond showed up for you, and anybody recognized like I 741 00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:04,760 Speaker 1: just felt in love with them all of a sudden 742 00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:08,520 Speaker 1: and I don't even know where it came from. Interesting. Interesting, 743 00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:13,360 Speaker 1: all of that to say, Yeah, it does feel like 744 00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:15,440 Speaker 1: there should be a word for that. So all of 745 00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:19,080 Speaker 1: our therapist friends or other mental health colleagues who might 746 00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:22,080 Speaker 1: be listening, if you know the word for this, let 747 00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:24,759 Speaker 1: us know what this word, because it does feel like 748 00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:27,160 Speaker 1: it could be a very close cousin to like drama 749 00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:32,720 Speaker 1: bon right, Yeah, where it is? Yeah? Yeah, I hadn't 750 00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:34,480 Speaker 1: heard of that one. Okay, See, you taught me so 751 00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:38,520 Speaker 1: much today, doctor Lex. From you, I'm glad to return 752 00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:42,959 Speaker 1: to fame. So any additional resources, doctor Lex, I feel 753 00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:44,839 Speaker 1: like you have given us so much today. But any 754 00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:47,880 Speaker 1: books that you think or podcasts or videos that you 755 00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:50,080 Speaker 1: think people might really be interested in based on what 756 00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:55,480 Speaker 1: you shared today. So I love Love Love Seven Principles 757 00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:59,080 Speaker 1: of Marriage. It has some great questionnaires in there, an 758 00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:04,120 Speaker 1: intimacy builder. There is sexlogist Samira's cards which use your 759 00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:08,880 Speaker 1: mouth deck, which are super super useful in figuring out 760 00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:12,000 Speaker 1: how to partner with one another. I have worksheets on 761 00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:16,920 Speaker 1: my own website lex ellie x x sex sc X 762 00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:20,560 Speaker 1: dot d O C dot com. And there's some worksheets 763 00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:25,440 Speaker 1: there about pleasure, about conflict and and ranking your conflicts 764 00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:28,920 Speaker 1: and then also getting to know and figuring out your 765 00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:32,920 Speaker 1: lover and what that looks like. And of course your podcast, 766 00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:35,279 Speaker 1: because I think there's just so many nuggets that are 767 00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:38,640 Speaker 1: dropped and so helpful, both on that self work so 768 00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:42,600 Speaker 1: you can come, you know, depending on what's going on 769 00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:47,239 Speaker 1: to your relationship, and then those tidbits that folks do 770 00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:49,680 Speaker 1: give out and the folks that you do have on 771 00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:55,160 Speaker 1: share so much about checking your own stuff and acknowledging 772 00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:57,200 Speaker 1: that that it's there and then giving people permission to 773 00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:01,120 Speaker 1: feel that that stuff is there. Nice And of course 774 00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:03,080 Speaker 1: we will include all of these in the show notes. 775 00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:05,600 Speaker 1: So you've already given us your website, What are your 776 00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:09,839 Speaker 1: social media handles you'd like to share? So everything is 777 00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:15,000 Speaker 1: the same across all platforms, so Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. 778 00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:18,080 Speaker 1: I'm I'm not that old, but I am old because 779 00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:22,000 Speaker 1: the Tikti talk thing is hard for me. So um, 780 00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:24,480 Speaker 1: I don't have one of those, but I am Lex 781 00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:28,720 Speaker 1: l E double x sex sc x dot like doctor 782 00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:34,000 Speaker 1: d o C on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter. Perfect. Well, 783 00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:36,680 Speaker 1: thank you so much, Dr Lex, I really appreciate it. 784 00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:39,000 Speaker 1: Thank you for having me, Dr Joy. You have a 785 00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:44,080 Speaker 1: great rest of your day you too. I'm so glad 786 00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:46,400 Speaker 1: Dr Lex was able to join us again this week. 787 00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:49,360 Speaker 1: Don't forget to visit the show notes at Therapy for 788 00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:53,200 Speaker 1: Black Girls dot Com slash Session one four to learn 789 00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:56,160 Speaker 1: more about Dr Lex, to grab a copy of her 790 00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:58,880 Speaker 1: kids book, or to check out the first time she 791 00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:02,320 Speaker 1: was on the podcast discussing getting rid of sexual shame. 792 00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:05,800 Speaker 1: Be sure to share your takeaways with us on social 793 00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:09,640 Speaker 1: media using the hashtag tv G in session, and don't 794 00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:12,120 Speaker 1: forget to share this episode with two other sisters in 795 00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:15,840 Speaker 1: your circle. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, 796 00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:19,280 Speaker 1: be sure to check out our therapist directory at Therapy 797 00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:22,759 Speaker 1: for Black Girls dot com slash directory. And if you 798 00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:25,719 Speaker 1: want to continue digging into this topic and connect with 799 00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:28,400 Speaker 1: some other sisters in your area, come on over and 800 00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:31,080 Speaker 1: join us in the Yellow Couch Collective, where we take 801 00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:33,880 Speaker 1: a deeper dive into the topics from the podcast and 802 00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:37,120 Speaker 1: just about everything else. You can join us at Therapy 803 00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:41,239 Speaker 1: for Black Girls dot Com slash y CC. Thank y'all 804 00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:43,959 Speaker 1: so much for joining me again this week. I look 805 00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:47,160 Speaker 1: forward to continue in this conversation with you all. Real soon. 806 00:46:47,920 --> 00:47:04,320 Speaker 1: Take good care and the best best Brest, the best 807 00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:04,640 Speaker 1: wood