WEBVTT - Marco Rubio On The Effort To Save Jobs And Get People Working Again 0:00:10.800 --> 0:00:14.240 Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. 0:00:14.280 --> 0:00:18.640 I'm Joe Wisenthal and I'm so Tracy. Obviously, we've been 0:00:18.680 --> 0:00:24.080 covering this NonStop story of the virus and the crisis 0:00:25.079 --> 0:00:28.200 from different from various economic and market angles for the 0:00:28.280 --> 0:00:30.960 last several weeks now, but today we're going to do 0:00:31.040 --> 0:00:33.760 something a little bit different than some of our recent episodes. 0:00:34.200 --> 0:00:37.040 What are we doing today? We're actually going to be 0:00:37.080 --> 0:00:42.600 talking to someone who's involved in formulating the policy response 0:00:42.960 --> 0:00:47.320 how the US anyway is addressing the economic crisis that's 0:00:47.360 --> 0:00:51.000 coinciding with the public health crisis. Right, So it sounds 0:00:51.040 --> 0:00:52.760 like this is our chance to sort of put a 0:00:52.760 --> 0:00:56.840 lot of the theory that we've been discussing into actual practice. 0:00:57.080 --> 0:01:00.680 And it's one thing to talk about what governments should do, uh, 0:01:00.720 --> 0:01:02.800 and of course we do quite a lot of that 0:01:02.960 --> 0:01:06.080 on the podcast already, but it's quite another thing to 0:01:06.120 --> 0:01:09.440 talk about what governments are actually doing or how they 0:01:09.440 --> 0:01:14.520 should put those ideas into actions. Yeah, that's exactly right, 0:01:14.520 --> 0:01:17.880 Like there is this general idea out there that we know. 0:01:18.160 --> 0:01:21.000 He's like, Okay, there needs to be a fiscal response 0:01:21.040 --> 0:01:25.840 to this crisis, which we've seen to quite a large degree. 0:01:25.920 --> 0:01:28.880 In some countries, people sort of overwhelmingly agree that it 0:01:28.920 --> 0:01:32.920 can't just be monetary. There's this idea I would say, 0:01:32.959 --> 0:01:36.959 I was sort of freezing or winter arizing the real 0:01:37.040 --> 0:01:40.560 economy so that people can continue to make their payments, 0:01:40.959 --> 0:01:45.000 make payroll things like that while their bills are coming 0:01:45.040 --> 0:01:47.800 to so that they could simultaneously pay their bills but 0:01:47.880 --> 0:01:52.440 now work right. And of course with all of those ideas, 0:01:52.640 --> 0:01:55.920 there are sort of all these different trade offs that 0:01:56.480 --> 0:01:59.600 policymakers have to start considering. And a big one that 0:01:59.640 --> 0:02:02.480 comes up time and time again is the idea of 0:02:02.800 --> 0:02:05.320 moral hazard. You know, are you going to end up 0:02:05.320 --> 0:02:10.560 rewarding people for bad behavior? How you calibrate one program 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:14.120 so that it doesn't interfere with another program? How do 0:02:14.120 --> 0:02:17.480 you incentivize people to take up the programs that you 0:02:17.520 --> 0:02:20.440 actually want them to take up. And of course all 0:02:20.440 --> 0:02:24.840 of this is happening under immense time pressure, during the 0:02:24.880 --> 0:02:28.560 time of coronavirus, when everyone is quite stressed and worried 0:02:28.560 --> 0:02:34.040 about a lot of things. Right, there's so many aspects 0:02:34.120 --> 0:02:37.919 of this current economic crisis that are extraordinary. The time 0:02:37.960 --> 0:02:41.400 pressure is one. The scale of the layoffs that we've seen, 0:02:41.440 --> 0:02:43.960 at least in the US have been so far off 0:02:44.000 --> 0:02:47.519 the charts that past periods don't even register. Is a 0:02:47.560 --> 0:02:50.400 blip if you were to say, look at initial claims. 0:02:50.680 --> 0:02:53.560 And because this isn't just a normal recession, because it's 0:02:53.560 --> 0:02:58.160 a complete shutdown, so many whether it's households or businesses, 0:02:58.440 --> 0:03:01.800 are essentially in the position in where one day they 0:03:01.800 --> 0:03:04.160 were doing fine and then the next day they were 0:03:04.200 --> 0:03:08.040 on the brink of crisis and layoff right exactly. So 0:03:08.200 --> 0:03:12.280 the scale is different, the speed is different. Possibly you 0:03:12.280 --> 0:03:15.080 could say that our political situation is a little bit 0:03:15.120 --> 0:03:17.880 different in the US at the moment. So who are 0:03:17.880 --> 0:03:20.919 we talking to about all of this? Well, I think 0:03:20.960 --> 0:03:23.840 what you said about the politics is exactly right, because 0:03:24.000 --> 0:03:27.280 one of the things that we saw during the rush 0:03:27.360 --> 0:03:29.480 to pass the legislation at the end of March was 0:03:29.600 --> 0:03:32.800 sort of, at least temporarily, a high degree of political 0:03:32.880 --> 0:03:37.120 unanimity and politicians on sort of both sides of the 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:42.480 aisle agreeing that whatever people think about government spending, deficits 0:03:42.600 --> 0:03:46.480 moral hazard, paying people who are unemployed, and so on, 0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:51.160 they all put their views on that aside, at least temporarily, 0:03:51.320 --> 0:03:54.280 and we'll see how long that last. So today on 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:56.960 the podcast, we are going to be talking to a 0:03:57.120 --> 0:04:00.400 very active policy maker in this space. He's Florida's Senator 0:04:00.800 --> 0:04:05.400 Marco Rubio. He's been championing, in particular the small business 0:04:06.120 --> 0:04:09.240 loans aspects of the deal that attempt to keep people 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:13.920 on their payrolls during this crisis. Senator Rubio, thank you 0:04:14.000 --> 0:04:17.720 very much for joining us at this extraordinary time. In 0:04:17.839 --> 0:04:21.120 your view, let's just sort of set the stage right now. 0:04:21.640 --> 0:04:25.440 Do you have a sense for how well the payroll 0:04:25.480 --> 0:04:28.400 protection part of the CARES Act is working? And do 0:04:28.400 --> 0:04:32.400 you have visibility and do how much money has been dispersed. 0:04:32.400 --> 0:04:35.240 Are you able to see that data billions of dollars 0:04:35.240 --> 0:04:37.280 have been dispersed. We won't. I think one of the 0:04:37.320 --> 0:04:40.520 fundamental misunderstanding because people think that the money being dispersed 0:04:40.600 --> 0:04:43.240 is coming out of the treasury. The money the treasury 0:04:43.320 --> 0:04:46.400 that we allocated, that we appropriated in the bill is 0:04:46.480 --> 0:04:49.360 guarantees that the cash that's actually dispersed it is from 0:04:49.400 --> 0:04:52.120 the banks, so it's the bank's cash. And then this 0:04:52.160 --> 0:04:55.360 money is there on the federal side to guarantee the vaults, 0:04:55.400 --> 0:04:59.200 and that's why they're making them. So unless the banks 0:04:59.200 --> 0:05:02.320 are announcing it publicly or updating it regularly. You know, 0:05:02.360 --> 0:05:04.839 in a public form, we're not going to have a 0:05:04.920 --> 0:05:08.480 total real time insight into what's been dispersed. Suffice it 0:05:08.560 --> 0:05:11.840 to say, like JPMorgan this morning had already dispersed nine billion. 0:05:12.200 --> 0:05:14.280 We know that they have to disperse it within ten 0:05:14.360 --> 0:05:16.880 days of approval. So you're gonna see a big bumping 0:05:17.320 --> 0:05:19.640 in those, uh in those disbursements here coming up as 0:05:19.640 --> 0:05:21.440 we're getting on the you know, the ten day mark 0:05:21.480 --> 0:05:23.680 of the first approvals, and in some cases we're at 0:05:23.680 --> 0:05:26.560 it and for some people, and so anyway, the it's 0:05:26.600 --> 0:05:29.039 moving along. My sense of it is, I think we 0:05:29.120 --> 0:05:32.760 have to have some perspective here. Let's do the timeline. Okay, 0:05:32.800 --> 0:05:35.760 Seventeen days ago, on March seven, the President signs the 0:05:35.800 --> 0:05:39.039 Cares Act, which creates a three hundred and fifty billion 0:05:39.080 --> 0:05:43.039 dollar brand new program that basically half to businesses in 0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:48.080 America are eligible for. Seven days later, they begin taking applications, 0:05:48.680 --> 0:05:51.440 and eleven days ten to eleven days after that, they're 0:05:51.480 --> 0:05:54.760 dispersing billions of dollars to cover the paychecks of millions 0:05:54.760 --> 0:05:56.920 of American workers. All of that in the span of 0:05:57.040 --> 0:05:59.880 seventeen days. I know of no other program with this 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:03.280 reach that has moved that quickly, and I think it's 0:06:03.720 --> 0:06:06.000 a combination of things. It's the fact that we're relying 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:08.360 on the private sector through banks to distribute it, and 0:06:08.720 --> 0:06:10.960 a lot of hard work. And yeah, there were some 0:06:11.680 --> 0:06:14.039 issues in the early part of it, because when anytime 0:06:14.080 --> 0:06:16.600 you start something that's big and new, you're going to 0:06:16.720 --> 0:06:18.880 have some issues. But I don't think you can sit 0:06:18.920 --> 0:06:21.880 back seven. I mean it's it's dispersed funds faster than 0:06:21.880 --> 0:06:25.039 the I R S did two taxpayers. It's dispersed funds 0:06:25.040 --> 0:06:28.960 faster than the direct payments to entire industries. So you know, 0:06:29.000 --> 0:06:31.479 I think it's a program that's getting better every single day. 0:06:32.040 --> 0:06:34.839 It will never be without issues, because nothing that you do, 0:06:35.680 --> 0:06:39.440 especially in a crisis emergency situation, is going to be perfect, 0:06:39.880 --> 0:06:41.680 but it's going to be very good and it's going 0:06:41.680 --> 0:06:44.960 to continue to improve. Just on the subject of scale, 0:06:45.400 --> 0:06:49.360 even though the Treasury isn't actually dispersing this money, it is, 0:06:49.440 --> 0:06:53.160 as you say, just guaranteeing the loans. The program is 0:06:53.200 --> 0:06:56.760 never the less capped at three billion, and it's also 0:06:56.880 --> 0:06:59.919 capped at length. I think it's eight weeks. Would you 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:03.600 expect that cap to get lifted at some point? Well, 0:07:03.640 --> 0:07:06.080 the eight week issues. From the time you get the disbursement, 0:07:06.600 --> 0:07:08.599 you're supposed to spend it on payroll and then and 0:07:08.600 --> 0:07:11.600 the rationale for that is the purpose of this program 0:07:11.720 --> 0:07:16.000 was to uh keep employees attached to their employers. We 0:07:16.080 --> 0:07:18.480 had companies coming to us saying, we don't want to 0:07:18.520 --> 0:07:20.720 let go of our workers, even if the government's forced 0:07:20.760 --> 0:07:23.160 us to close. We value our workers and we want 0:07:23.160 --> 0:07:25.280 to continue to pay them the way other companies are, 0:07:25.360 --> 0:07:27.200 even if they're not working full time and in some 0:07:27.240 --> 0:07:29.000 cases not even coming in at all. We don't want 0:07:29.000 --> 0:07:31.280 to lose them. We feel bad for them, and I 0:07:31.320 --> 0:07:33.680 think that's especially true in small business. And so we said, well, 0:07:33.680 --> 0:07:35.520 we're going to provide a vehicle for that to happen 0:07:35.720 --> 0:07:38.440 so people don't have to go into the unemployment system. 0:07:38.560 --> 0:07:40.600 And but in order to do that, you have to 0:07:40.640 --> 0:07:42.840 sort of define what the time period is so you're 0:07:42.840 --> 0:07:45.080 not sitting on this for two years and in fact 0:07:45.080 --> 0:07:48.680 not hiring people back. In terms of the amount, the 0:07:48.680 --> 0:07:51.840 amount is important because once once the amount that the 0:07:51.920 --> 0:07:55.200 Treasury and the government has to guarantee loans is reached, 0:07:55.680 --> 0:07:57.760 the banks will stop issuing these loans. They're not going 0:07:57.800 --> 0:08:00.400 to issue loans unless the guarantee is there. That's why 0:08:00.440 --> 0:08:02.880 it's important to replenish these funds. So look, it's so 0:08:03.000 --> 0:08:06.000 I can't tell you a specificity a specific day, but 0:08:06.120 --> 0:08:08.559 if you look at it, we're started the day about 0:08:08.560 --> 0:08:12.280 two hundred over two d forty billion dollars of of 0:08:12.320 --> 0:08:15.880 commitments already, So it's hard to imagine finishing the week 0:08:16.560 --> 0:08:19.240 without being very very close to that number. Given now 0:08:19.280 --> 0:08:22.120 the fact that you've got UM pay pals now in 0:08:22.800 --> 0:08:24.920 UM you know, a bunch of other fencins are in, 0:08:25.040 --> 0:08:28.920 and we're keep adding community banks. So I think the 0:08:28.960 --> 0:08:30.480 pace in the scope of this is going to pick 0:08:30.520 --> 0:08:48.520 up pretty quickly. M So, just to talk politics for 0:08:48.600 --> 0:08:52.080 one second, UM, there seems to be a wide consensus 0:08:52.080 --> 0:08:55.680 that it's worth topping up the program. Democrats want to 0:08:55.840 --> 0:08:59.400 pair this with more money for city states hospitals, maybe 0:08:59.400 --> 0:09:02.080 more on the you ey side. Do you see a 0:09:02.120 --> 0:09:05.240 path forward if it's uh, the program is going to 0:09:05.400 --> 0:09:08.000 soon run dry, whether it's this week or next, to 0:09:08.600 --> 0:09:11.520 replenish it and come to some sort of agreement with 0:09:11.559 --> 0:09:14.360 the Democrats again with kind of with the same level 0:09:14.360 --> 0:09:16.600 of unanimity that we saw the first time the first 0:09:16.600 --> 0:09:18.760 go round. Yeah, except that I don't know why the 0:09:18.800 --> 0:09:20.960 two have to be paired. I think the issue of 0:09:21.000 --> 0:09:23.640 paycheck protection, we know that's very simple. That's just as 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:26.040 a program that's now up and running, we have a 0:09:26.040 --> 0:09:27.960 pretty good sense of how to outlay it, and it 0:09:28.040 --> 0:09:29.880 just needs additional funds so we don't have to stop 0:09:29.920 --> 0:09:33.319 with and guarantees. Every single member of the Senate Republican, 0:09:33.360 --> 0:09:38.480 Democrat and Independent has hospitals and has cities who are 0:09:38.480 --> 0:09:41.800 not even receiving direct monies from the original Cares Act, 0:09:41.920 --> 0:09:44.800 and we want to help them to The problem is 0:09:44.840 --> 0:09:47.240 you've got to design a formula for distributing the funds. 0:09:47.240 --> 0:09:48.640 You know, what is the formula that's going to be 0:09:48.720 --> 0:09:51.480 used to determine how much they say, with thirty thousand 0:09:51.520 --> 0:09:54.040 people gets versus a city with two hundred thousand people, 0:09:54.400 --> 0:09:56.160 And that's going to take some time to devise a 0:09:56.200 --> 0:09:58.760 formula that works. I'll give you as an example. You know, 0:09:58.800 --> 0:10:00.960 we passed this care Is Act and it had money 0:10:00.960 --> 0:10:05.400 being distributed, but because of the unique structure of its finances, 0:10:05.600 --> 0:10:09.080 Jackson Memorial Hospital in Miami, Florida, the second largest hospital 0:10:09.120 --> 0:10:11.840 in the country, the second largest public hospital in the country, 0:10:12.120 --> 0:10:14.840 was being badly hurt by the formula that that they 0:10:14.880 --> 0:10:17.640 came up with an HHS. It was fixed. But that's 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:19.880 just an example of why when you distribute that amount 0:10:19.880 --> 0:10:21.320 of money, you have to have a formula in place 0:10:21.360 --> 0:10:24.280 that everybody signs out. That's more complicated than saying, let's 0:10:24.280 --> 0:10:26.120 just put more money into a program that's up and 0:10:26.200 --> 0:10:28.760 running and we know how it's distributed, so that that's 0:10:28.800 --> 0:10:30.640 the that's the issue with that one. It's not that 0:10:30.679 --> 0:10:33.680 anyone's against it, is we got you know, everyone wants 0:10:33.720 --> 0:10:35.280 to know how that's how it's going to be designed, 0:10:35.320 --> 0:10:37.800 and how we're going to determine how much cities get. 0:10:37.880 --> 0:10:40.920 Is it per capita? Is it there's population size alone, 0:10:40.960 --> 0:10:42.520 and not account for some of the costs they have. 0:10:42.840 --> 0:10:46.160 You know, in our intro, Joe and I were talking 0:10:46.240 --> 0:10:50.200 a little bit about the difficulty of calibrating public policy, 0:10:50.640 --> 0:10:54.319 especially under this kind of time pressure, and also balancing 0:10:54.320 --> 0:10:56.920 it with a lot of the other initiatives that the 0:10:56.960 --> 0:11:00.040 government is currently unrolling. So I was wondering, when it 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:02.120 comes to the p p P, how do you balance 0:11:02.200 --> 0:11:06.800 that with the expanded unemployment benefits, Because of course there's 0:11:06.800 --> 0:11:09.199 a discussion now that some workers might be better off 0:11:09.240 --> 0:11:12.560 taking unemployment rather than being kept on the payroll. And 0:11:12.600 --> 0:11:16.120 these are all decisions and discussions that small businesses are 0:11:16.320 --> 0:11:19.840 having to have at the moment right well. And I 0:11:19.840 --> 0:11:22.480 think the answer to that question is that since you 0:11:22.520 --> 0:11:25.080 can't have both, you can't you can't both be on 0:11:25.120 --> 0:11:27.600 the payroll of your employer to the p p P 0:11:27.920 --> 0:11:31.720 and also on unemployment. Um, whatever you're spending on one side, 0:11:32.040 --> 0:11:35.720 you're you're saving on the other. So um. But it's, 0:11:35.760 --> 0:11:37.960 as you said, it's very difficult right now to predict 0:11:38.000 --> 0:11:39.920 exactly what people are going to do because there's no 0:11:39.960 --> 0:11:43.400 sustinct as business. There's every business makes a different decision. 0:11:43.760 --> 0:11:46.480 There's not one set across the board of however one's 0:11:46.480 --> 0:11:48.720 going to decide. So we have seen I mean, look, 0:11:48.920 --> 0:11:50.840 there are going to be cases of people that decide 0:11:50.920 --> 0:11:52.440 I'm not going to go back to work because in 0:11:52.480 --> 0:11:55.120 my state, I'm actually making more on unemployment than I 0:11:55.160 --> 0:11:58.920 would by working. Obviously, there's an impediment to that, and 0:11:58.960 --> 0:12:01.040 that is that many states have had their systems crash. 0:12:01.240 --> 0:12:03.040 So there I know people have been waiting for three 0:12:03.040 --> 0:12:05.200 weeks to get into the Florida system because the phones 0:12:05.440 --> 0:12:08.440 are being answered. You know, the website was overwhelmed, etcetera. 0:12:08.840 --> 0:12:10.680 Some people are gonna say, you know, I'd rather just 0:12:10.720 --> 0:12:12.559 have my job back because I know I'm gonna get 0:12:12.559 --> 0:12:14.640 paid and it's going to be there when this all ends. 0:12:14.840 --> 0:12:18.000 The unemployment benefit goes away in four months, some people 0:12:18.080 --> 0:12:19.959 and some businesses are going to decide when I was 0:12:19.960 --> 0:12:22.240 a perfect time to lay people off. You know, we 0:12:22.320 --> 0:12:26.000 have a issue emerging with the hotels and restaurant particular hotels, 0:12:26.000 --> 0:12:27.360 A lot of them came to us and asked for 0:12:27.400 --> 0:12:31.360 special language. Many of them are franchises of big companies, 0:12:31.800 --> 0:12:33.640 and but they're not owned by the company, so we 0:12:33.720 --> 0:12:36.199 created special language for them to be included in the 0:12:36.280 --> 0:12:39.080 Small Business Protection Program. And now some of them are saying, well, 0:12:39.400 --> 0:12:40.959 we want you to change the law. We don't want 0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:42.400 to use the money for payroll. We want to use 0:12:42.440 --> 0:12:44.480 it to pay franchise fees and things of that nature. 0:12:44.480 --> 0:12:45.920 And I was like, well, that's why it's called the 0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:48.680 Paycheck Protection Act. The reason why we carved you in 0:12:48.760 --> 0:12:50.480 this because you told us you wanted to keep your 0:12:50.520 --> 0:12:53.840 workers on payroll even if you had no people staying. 0:12:54.160 --> 0:12:55.920 We're not going to do that. So you know, there's 0:12:55.920 --> 0:12:57.240 a lot of that kind of stuff going on. And 0:12:57.240 --> 0:12:59.160 I'm not saying they're not going through tough times, but 0:12:59.320 --> 0:13:01.520 our program the wrong one for them to come to 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:04.240 for for the assistance they're seeking. If it's about keeping 0:13:04.240 --> 0:13:06.360 people on the payroll, well for it. So the bottom 0:13:06.360 --> 0:13:10.960 line is, in an emergency, unprecedented situation, you're going to 0:13:11.000 --> 0:13:13.440 have a lot of unanticipated things come up. And what 0:13:13.520 --> 0:13:15.400 we have to do is are on the side of action. 0:13:15.760 --> 0:13:17.240 The worst thing that could happen is we don't do 0:13:17.280 --> 0:13:21.040 anything real quickly. While we're in this situation now, and 0:13:21.080 --> 0:13:24.400 there's this widespread view that it's nobody's fault that we 0:13:24.440 --> 0:13:28.400 want to keep jab businesses and payrolls alive to get 0:13:28.440 --> 0:13:32.160 through this health crisis, why not apply some of the 0:13:32.240 --> 0:13:35.880 principles of payroll protection to some of the larger companies, 0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:40.640 more direct cash grants to larger corporations that are currently 0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:43.439 getting helped maybe through the FED programs and so forth, 0:13:43.840 --> 0:13:48.360 to either through suasion or force have them keep more 0:13:48.440 --> 0:13:51.199 people on the payroll. Well, I think if this is 0:13:51.240 --> 0:13:53.400 a model that we can make work. Some people would 0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:55.679 argue that, and in fact, I remember nearing the end 0:13:55.720 --> 0:14:00.360 of our deliberations and Senate one of the senator lunches 0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:02.280 in the Republicly conference. We had a number of people 0:14:02.320 --> 0:14:03.920 stand up and say, hey, why aren't we doing that 0:14:04.000 --> 0:14:06.240 for everybody? You know? But of course I'm the chairman 0:14:06.240 --> 0:14:08.280 of the Small Business Committee, and all we we took 0:14:08.320 --> 0:14:10.320 we so we we didn't have that in our mandate. 0:14:10.640 --> 0:14:13.440 We actually took on additional things like the no profit 0:14:13.520 --> 0:14:16.920 sector and independent contractors and ten ninety nine employees that 0:14:17.200 --> 0:14:19.800 qualifying or this as well for the first time. So 0:14:20.080 --> 0:14:21.760 but I agree, I mean, I think there's a model 0:14:21.760 --> 0:14:24.960 there that could be followed. Obviously a lot more money, 0:14:25.000 --> 0:14:29.960 because when you're talking now about entities that employed thousands 0:14:29.960 --> 0:14:32.600 of people, you're not talking about ten billion dollar loans 0:14:32.600 --> 0:14:35.040 will pay roll over eight weeks. You're talking about multi 0:14:35.120 --> 0:14:37.400 multibillion dollar loans. But I think it's a concept that 0:14:37.440 --> 0:14:40.880 could theoretically work in those settings as well. I think 0:14:40.880 --> 0:14:44.120 that the notion in that front was just um trying 0:14:44.120 --> 0:14:46.680 to Most of those companies were just asking for access 0:14:46.720 --> 0:14:49.760 to some credit vehicle that they could use to ride 0:14:49.760 --> 0:14:52.240 through the short term of what they were facing. But 0:14:52.240 --> 0:14:53.720 but I agree, I mean, I think it's a model 0:14:53.760 --> 0:14:56.680 that could be applied to different businesses of different sizes. 0:14:57.440 --> 0:14:59.960 Have you had any discussions with anyone else in government 0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:03.360 about expanding it. Are people asking you how it's going 0:15:03.440 --> 0:15:06.720 with the small business p p P. Yeah. So you know, 0:15:06.720 --> 0:15:08.560 it's interesting because it's the one that's gotten the most 0:15:08.560 --> 0:15:12.320 attention early on. And you know, when we started this process, 0:15:12.360 --> 0:15:14.080 I would say, you know, the first day that came 0:15:14.120 --> 0:15:16.160 out with the REGs was that Friday, we had a 0:15:16.200 --> 0:15:18.000 list of like thirty things that we were hearing from 0:15:18.040 --> 0:15:20.880 bankers and lenders all across the country. And that list 0:15:20.880 --> 0:15:24.360 has basically been narrowed down to minute little details. In essence, 0:15:24.400 --> 0:15:25.960 it was a lot of work that went into sort 0:15:25.960 --> 0:15:28.720 of getting these questions answered. Ivan Treasury today released its 0:15:28.720 --> 0:15:32.760 third set of guidance that dealt with some additional questions 0:15:32.760 --> 0:15:35.280 that were lingering. And in that process is you know, 0:15:35.480 --> 0:15:37.120 I will tell you that every day is the first 0:15:37.160 --> 0:15:39.080 day that this came out, I had twelve senators called 0:15:39.120 --> 0:15:41.000 and even the second day we had eight. So people 0:15:41.000 --> 0:15:43.680 are watching and there. Now what's happening now is people 0:15:43.720 --> 0:15:46.480 are hearing from businesses that are actually having funds dispersed. 0:15:47.080 --> 0:15:49.160 But I can tell you that during the process of 0:15:49.200 --> 0:15:53.400 this conversation, there was talk about even among our work group, 0:15:53.440 --> 0:15:56.200 are by partisan work group. Who else could we include? 0:15:56.200 --> 0:15:58.160 And it really just came down as a function of dollars, 0:15:58.200 --> 0:15:59.680 you know, when they originally told us we had three 0:15:59.720 --> 0:16:02.720 hundred billion and then increased to three fifty. But if 0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:04.920 they wanted us to take on some of the other 0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:07.480 sectors that some people were talking about, it would need 0:16:07.480 --> 0:16:09.600 a lot more than three fifty. It will probably take 0:16:09.640 --> 0:16:12.160 up most of the bills. So um, there's been some 0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:14.440 talk about it, but really the focus over the last 0:16:14.440 --> 0:16:17.480 week has been about improving the program and the questions 0:16:17.480 --> 0:16:20.000 that we're holding back lenders, and luckily we've been able 0:16:20.040 --> 0:16:22.160 to do most of that. And then one of the 0:16:22.160 --> 0:16:23.760 things I focused on a lot is some of the 0:16:23.840 --> 0:16:28.320 underserved communities, uh small, really small micro businesses, minority communities 0:16:28.360 --> 0:16:31.680 that may not have sta strong banking relationships and therefore 0:16:31.720 --> 0:16:34.720 having access problems. And that's why I've been harping all 0:16:34.800 --> 0:16:37.520 week on the need to bring in non bank lenders, 0:16:37.520 --> 0:16:39.360 which is in the bill right. This is not something 0:16:39.360 --> 0:16:42.080 we came up with. Now. The bill specifically talks about 0:16:42.080 --> 0:16:45.360 fin techs and non bank lenders being on ramped into 0:16:45.440 --> 0:16:49.800 the system, and that's beginning to happen where approximately individual 0:16:49.880 --> 0:16:53.960 lenders now are participating, from credit unions to small banks, 0:16:54.000 --> 0:16:55.960 and as they're as they're ramping up and coming on 0:16:56.040 --> 0:16:59.000 the system, it creates more access points. And I'm really 0:16:59.040 --> 0:17:02.880 excited about payper au and fin techs because PayPal told 0:17:02.880 --> 0:17:05.160 me the first leon they made was five thousand dollars, 0:17:05.200 --> 0:17:08.520 So that gives you an idea of the small, small, small, 0:17:08.600 --> 0:17:12.280 micro business impact this could happen and m and I 0:17:12.320 --> 0:17:15.119 think as that ramps up, I think those access issues 0:17:15.200 --> 0:17:16.760 are going to be improved. That's really what we've been 0:17:16.760 --> 0:17:20.720 focusing on here in the last few days. Senator, before 0:17:20.760 --> 0:17:22.320 you have to go in a few more minutes, let's 0:17:22.320 --> 0:17:26.600 talk about the sort of post crisis period. Hopefully the 0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:31.520 health crisis ends quickly and businesses of various sorts can reopen, 0:17:31.520 --> 0:17:33.960 and everyone wants that, but I also think that sort 0:17:34.000 --> 0:17:36.960 of realistically, we know not all businesses are going to reopen. 0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:41.320 Most economists expect unemployment to remain somewhat elevated for quite 0:17:41.320 --> 0:17:43.960 some time. What do you see as either in a 0:17:44.080 --> 0:17:47.399 round four or round five of what the government can 0:17:47.440 --> 0:17:49.359 be doing to get us We were at what a 0:17:49.359 --> 0:17:51.800 lot of people thought was full employment, three point five 0:17:51.800 --> 0:17:56.120 percent unemployment, the best levels in decades. How what could 0:17:56.200 --> 0:17:58.240 the government do to get us is back to that 0:17:58.320 --> 0:18:01.280 as fast as possible. Well, I think it really begins 0:18:01.320 --> 0:18:04.520 by people in positions of influence and leadership being brutally honest, 0:18:04.560 --> 0:18:06.800 and that is we're not going to go back immediately 0:18:06.920 --> 0:18:09.439 the way things were March first. I think when you 0:18:09.480 --> 0:18:14.000 start to see here whenever that is different jurisdictions and 0:18:14.040 --> 0:18:17.679 states begin to modify the restrictions they've put in place, 0:18:18.119 --> 0:18:20.480 it isn't gonna be zero to sixty. It's gonna be 0:18:20.520 --> 0:18:22.920 you know, we're gonna reopen parks and we're gonna allow 0:18:23.000 --> 0:18:25.080 kids to go to school for two hours, but you're 0:18:25.080 --> 0:18:27.000 still gonna have a lot of the same regulations in 0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:30.120 place for a while. And that includes, you know, how 0:18:30.119 --> 0:18:32.000 close you can stand in line to people, how many 0:18:32.000 --> 0:18:34.199 people can gather into place. That's just a fact that 0:18:34.359 --> 0:18:35.960 people need to absorb that that we're not going to 0:18:36.040 --> 0:18:38.720 go back to just March first right away. The second 0:18:38.760 --> 0:18:40.879 point I would make is I will try to divide 0:18:40.880 --> 0:18:43.440 this up into three buckets. The first is, we don't 0:18:43.480 --> 0:18:45.760 know yet how bad the damage is. This reminds me 0:18:45.840 --> 0:18:48.040 of a hurricane. You're sitting at home and hurricane is 0:18:48.119 --> 0:18:50.439 howling outside and it sounds really bad, and you know 0:18:50.520 --> 0:18:52.439 it's really bad, and you see some trees falling and 0:18:52.480 --> 0:18:54.800 branches breaking, but you have no idea how widespread the 0:18:54.840 --> 0:18:57.919 damage is. Until it's over and you come outside and 0:18:57.920 --> 0:19:00.560 you start to do a damage assessment. We won't know 0:19:00.640 --> 0:19:02.720 the full economic damage. And some of it's gonna have 0:19:02.800 --> 0:19:05.200 a tail to It's gonna linger for some period of time, 0:19:05.520 --> 0:19:07.800 so that before we can even talk about exactly how 0:19:07.800 --> 0:19:09.280 to solve that, we have to know the full extent 0:19:09.359 --> 0:19:11.520 of it. I think we're related to that is not 0:19:11.600 --> 0:19:15.200 just how to recover, but some strategic decisions we're gonna 0:19:15.240 --> 0:19:17.840 have to make about the structure of our economy. And 0:19:17.840 --> 0:19:22.040 in particular, I am a huge supporter of capitalism because 0:19:22.119 --> 0:19:26.119 capitalism always reaches the most efficient outcome. But every now 0:19:26.200 --> 0:19:27.879 and then, the most efficient outcome is not in our 0:19:27.960 --> 0:19:30.920 national interest, and we have faced that here with critical 0:19:30.920 --> 0:19:33.800 shortages of certain things. You know, we don't have a 0:19:33.840 --> 0:19:36.040 critical shortage, for example, in our food supply. We may 0:19:36.080 --> 0:19:39.480 have some disruptions eventually, but not shortages because we can 0:19:39.520 --> 0:19:43.080 domestically feed ourselves, but we can't make pep you know. Uh. 0:19:43.400 --> 0:19:46.919 Personal protection equipment. We struggle to make ventilators. We had 0:19:46.920 --> 0:19:50.159 to repurpose industries for that. Some of the basic active 0:19:50.280 --> 0:19:53.960 ingredients and our leading pharmaceuticals come from abroad, I think, 0:19:54.280 --> 0:19:55.720 and not to mention if you want to get into 0:19:55.760 --> 0:19:59.280 other realms, things like rarest minerals and telecommunication and so 0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:01.879 the question be times when is something so critical to 0:20:01.920 --> 0:20:04.879 our national security or national well being, But we have 0:20:05.000 --> 0:20:08.000 to have a domestic capacity to do it. Even if 0:20:08.040 --> 0:20:11.480 it's from a pure market perspective, it's not the most 0:20:11.480 --> 0:20:14.600 efficient place to do it. And that's a that leads 0:20:14.640 --> 0:20:16.879 us to industrial policy, which is something we've talked about 0:20:16.880 --> 0:20:18.720