1 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:14,240 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. 2 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:18,640 Speaker 1: I'm Joe Wisenthal and I'm so Tracy. Obviously, we've been 3 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:24,080 Speaker 1: covering this NonStop story of the virus and the crisis 4 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 1: from different from various economic and market angles for the 5 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 1: last several weeks now, but today we're going to do 6 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 1: something a little bit different than some of our recent episodes. 7 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 1: What are we doing today? We're actually going to be 8 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:42,600 Speaker 1: talking to someone who's involved in formulating the policy response 9 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 1: how the US anyway is addressing the economic crisis that's 10 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 1: coinciding with the public health crisis. Right, So it sounds 11 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 1: like this is our chance to sort of put a 12 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 1: lot of the theory that we've been discussing into actual practice. 13 00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 1: And it's one thing to talk about what governments should do, uh, 14 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 1: and of course we do quite a lot of that 15 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 1: on the podcast already, but it's quite another thing to 16 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 1: talk about what governments are actually doing or how they 17 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 1: should put those ideas into actions. Yeah, that's exactly right, 18 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 1: Like there is this general idea out there that we know. 19 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 1: He's like, Okay, there needs to be a fiscal response 20 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:25,840 Speaker 1: to this crisis, which we've seen to quite a large degree. 21 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 1: In some countries, people sort of overwhelmingly agree that it 22 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 1: can't just be monetary. There's this idea I would say, 23 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:36,959 Speaker 1: I was sort of freezing or winter arizing the real 24 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:40,560 Speaker 1: economy so that people can continue to make their payments, 25 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 1: make payroll things like that while their bills are coming 26 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 1: to so that they could simultaneously pay their bills but 27 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 1: now work right. And of course with all of those ideas, 28 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 1: there are sort of all these different trade offs that 29 00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 1: policymakers have to start considering. And a big one that 30 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 1: comes up time and time again is the idea of 31 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: moral hazard. You know, are you going to end up 32 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 1: rewarding people for bad behavior? How you calibrate one program 33 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 1: so that it doesn't interfere with another program? How do 34 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 1: you incentivize people to take up the programs that you 35 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 1: actually want them to take up. And of course all 36 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 1: of this is happening under immense time pressure, during the 37 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 1: time of coronavirus, when everyone is quite stressed and worried 38 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 1: about a lot of things. Right, there's so many aspects 39 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:37,919 Speaker 1: of this current economic crisis that are extraordinary. The time 40 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 1: pressure is one. The scale of the layoffs that we've seen, 41 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 1: at least in the US have been so far off 42 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:47,519 Speaker 1: the charts that past periods don't even register. Is a 43 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:50,400 Speaker 1: blip if you were to say, look at initial claims. 44 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 1: And because this isn't just a normal recession, because it's 45 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:58,160 Speaker 1: a complete shutdown, so many whether it's households or businesses, 46 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:01,800 Speaker 1: are essentially in the position in where one day they 47 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 1: were doing fine and then the next day they were 48 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 1: on the brink of crisis and layoff right exactly. So 49 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 1: the scale is different, the speed is different. Possibly you 50 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:15,080 Speaker 1: could say that our political situation is a little bit 51 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 1: different in the US at the moment. So who are 52 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:20,919 Speaker 1: we talking to about all of this? Well, I think 53 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 1: what you said about the politics is exactly right, because 54 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 1: one of the things that we saw during the rush 55 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 1: to pass the legislation at the end of March was 56 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:32,800 Speaker 1: sort of, at least temporarily, a high degree of political 57 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 1: unanimity and politicians on sort of both sides of the 58 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 1: aisle agreeing that whatever people think about government spending, deficits 59 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 1: moral hazard, paying people who are unemployed, and so on, 60 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 1: they all put their views on that aside, at least temporarily, 61 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 1: and we'll see how long that last. So today on 62 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 1: the podcast, we are going to be talking to a 63 00:03:57,120 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 1: very active policy maker in this space. He's Florida's Senator 64 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 1: Marco Rubio. He's been championing, in particular the small business 65 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 1: loans aspects of the deal that attempt to keep people 66 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 1: on their payrolls during this crisis. Senator Rubio, thank you 67 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:17,720 Speaker 1: very much for joining us at this extraordinary time. In 68 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 1: your view, let's just sort of set the stage right now. 69 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 1: Do you have a sense for how well the payroll 70 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 1: protection part of the CARES Act is working? And do 71 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 1: you have visibility and do how much money has been dispersed. 72 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 1: Are you able to see that data billions of dollars 73 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:37,280 Speaker 1: have been dispersed. We won't. I think one of the 74 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 1: fundamental misunderstanding because people think that the money being dispersed 75 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 1: is coming out of the treasury. The money the treasury 76 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 1: that we allocated, that we appropriated in the bill is 77 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:49,360 Speaker 1: guarantees that the cash that's actually dispersed it is from 78 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 1: the banks, so it's the bank's cash. And then this 79 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:55,360 Speaker 1: money is there on the federal side to guarantee the vaults, 80 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 1: and that's why they're making them. So unless the banks 81 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 1: are announcing it publicly or updating it regularly. You know, 82 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:04,839 Speaker 1: in a public form, we're not going to have a 83 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:08,480 Speaker 1: total real time insight into what's been dispersed. Suffice it 84 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:11,840 Speaker 1: to say, like JPMorgan this morning had already dispersed nine billion. 85 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:14,280 Speaker 1: We know that they have to disperse it within ten 86 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 1: days of approval. So you're gonna see a big bumping 87 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 1: in those, uh in those disbursements here coming up as 88 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 1: we're getting on the you know, the ten day mark 89 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 1: of the first approvals, and in some cases we're at 90 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 1: it and for some people, and so anyway, the it's 91 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:29,039 Speaker 1: moving along. My sense of it is, I think we 92 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 1: have to have some perspective here. Let's do the timeline. Okay, 93 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 1: Seventeen days ago, on March seven, the President signs the 94 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:39,039 Speaker 1: Cares Act, which creates a three hundred and fifty billion 95 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:43,039 Speaker 1: dollar brand new program that basically half to businesses in 96 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:48,080 Speaker 1: America are eligible for. Seven days later, they begin taking applications, 97 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 1: and eleven days ten to eleven days after that, they're 98 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 1: dispersing billions of dollars to cover the paychecks of millions 99 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:56,920 Speaker 1: of American workers. All of that in the span of 100 00:05:57,040 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 1: seventeen days. I know of no other program with this 101 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:03,280 Speaker 1: reach that has moved that quickly, and I think it's 102 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 1: a combination of things. It's the fact that we're relying 103 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 1: on the private sector through banks to distribute it, and 104 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 1: a lot of hard work. And yeah, there were some 105 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:14,039 Speaker 1: issues in the early part of it, because when anytime 106 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:16,600 Speaker 1: you start something that's big and new, you're going to 107 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 1: have some issues. But I don't think you can sit 108 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 1: back seven. I mean it's it's dispersed funds faster than 109 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:25,039 Speaker 1: the I R S did two taxpayers. It's dispersed funds 110 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 1: faster than the direct payments to entire industries. So you know, 111 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:31,479 Speaker 1: I think it's a program that's getting better every single day. 112 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 1: It will never be without issues, because nothing that you do, 113 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 1: especially in a crisis emergency situation, is going to be perfect, 114 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 1: but it's going to be very good and it's going 115 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 1: to continue to improve. Just on the subject of scale, 116 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:49,360 Speaker 1: even though the Treasury isn't actually dispersing this money, it is, 117 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:53,160 Speaker 1: as you say, just guaranteeing the loans. The program is 118 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 1: never the less capped at three billion, and it's also 119 00:06:56,880 --> 00:06:59,919 Speaker 1: capped at length. I think it's eight weeks. Would you 120 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:03,600 Speaker 1: expect that cap to get lifted at some point? Well, 121 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 1: the eight week issues. From the time you get the disbursement, 122 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:08,599 Speaker 1: you're supposed to spend it on payroll and then and 123 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 1: the rationale for that is the purpose of this program 124 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: was to uh keep employees attached to their employers. We 125 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 1: had companies coming to us saying, we don't want to 126 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 1: let go of our workers, even if the government's forced 127 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 1: us to close. We value our workers and we want 128 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 1: to continue to pay them the way other companies are, 129 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 1: even if they're not working full time and in some 130 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 1: cases not even coming in at all. We don't want 131 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 1: to lose them. We feel bad for them, and I 132 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 1: think that's especially true in small business. And so we said, well, 133 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 1: we're going to provide a vehicle for that to happen 134 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 1: so people don't have to go into the unemployment system. 135 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 1: And but in order to do that, you have to 136 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 1: sort of define what the time period is so you're 137 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 1: not sitting on this for two years and in fact 138 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 1: not hiring people back. In terms of the amount, the 139 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 1: amount is important because once once the amount that the 140 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 1: Treasury and the government has to guarantee loans is reached, 141 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 1: the banks will stop issuing these loans. They're not going 142 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 1: to issue loans unless the guarantee is there. That's why 143 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 1: it's important to replenish these funds. So look, it's so 144 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 1: I can't tell you a specificity a specific day, but 145 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:08,559 Speaker 1: if you look at it, we're started the day about 146 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 1: two hundred over two d forty billion dollars of of 147 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 1: commitments already, So it's hard to imagine finishing the week 148 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 1: without being very very close to that number. Given now 149 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 1: the fact that you've got UM pay pals now in 150 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 1: UM you know, a bunch of other fencins are in, 151 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:28,920 Speaker 1: and we're keep adding community banks. So I think the 152 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 1: pace in the scope of this is going to pick 153 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 1: up pretty quickly. M So, just to talk politics for 154 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:52,080 Speaker 1: one second, UM, there seems to be a wide consensus 155 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:55,680 Speaker 1: that it's worth topping up the program. Democrats want to 156 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:59,400 Speaker 1: pair this with more money for city states hospitals, maybe 157 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 1: more on the you ey side. Do you see a 158 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 1: path forward if it's uh, the program is going to 159 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 1: soon run dry, whether it's this week or next, to 160 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:11,520 Speaker 1: replenish it and come to some sort of agreement with 161 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 1: the Democrats again with kind of with the same level 162 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 1: of unanimity that we saw the first time the first 163 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 1: go round. Yeah, except that I don't know why the 164 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:20,960 Speaker 1: two have to be paired. I think the issue of 165 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 1: paycheck protection, we know that's very simple. That's just as 166 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 1: a program that's now up and running, we have a 167 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:27,960 Speaker 1: pretty good sense of how to outlay it, and it 168 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 1: just needs additional funds so we don't have to stop 169 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:33,319 Speaker 1: with and guarantees. Every single member of the Senate Republican, 170 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 1: Democrat and Independent has hospitals and has cities who are 171 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 1: not even receiving direct monies from the original Cares Act, 172 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 1: and we want to help them to The problem is 173 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 1: you've got to design a formula for distributing the funds. 174 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 1: You know, what is the formula that's going to be 175 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 1: used to determine how much they say, with thirty thousand 176 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 1: people gets versus a city with two hundred thousand people, 177 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 1: And that's going to take some time to devise a 178 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 1: formula that works. I'll give you as an example. You know, 179 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 1: we passed this care Is Act and it had money 180 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 1: being distributed, but because of the unique structure of its finances, 181 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:09,080 Speaker 1: Jackson Memorial Hospital in Miami, Florida, the second largest hospital 182 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:11,840 Speaker 1: in the country, the second largest public hospital in the country, 183 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:14,840 Speaker 1: was being badly hurt by the formula that that they 184 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 1: came up with an HHS. It was fixed. But that's 185 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 1: just an example of why when you distribute that amount 186 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:21,320 Speaker 1: of money, you have to have a formula in place 187 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 1: that everybody signs out. That's more complicated than saying, let's 188 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 1: just put more money into a program that's up and 189 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 1: running and we know how it's distributed, so that that's 190 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 1: the that's the issue with that one. It's not that 191 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:33,680 Speaker 1: anyone's against it, is we got you know, everyone wants 192 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 1: to know how that's how it's going to be designed, 193 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 1: and how we're going to determine how much cities get. 194 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 1: Is it per capita? Is it there's population size alone, 195 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 1: and not account for some of the costs they have. 196 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 1: You know, in our intro, Joe and I were talking 197 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:50,200 Speaker 1: a little bit about the difficulty of calibrating public policy, 198 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:54,319 Speaker 1: especially under this kind of time pressure, and also balancing 199 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:56,920 Speaker 1: it with a lot of the other initiatives that the 200 00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:00,040 Speaker 1: government is currently unrolling. So I was wondering, when it 201 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 1: comes to the p p P, how do you balance 202 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 1: that with the expanded unemployment benefits, Because of course there's 203 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:09,199 Speaker 1: a discussion now that some workers might be better off 204 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:12,560 Speaker 1: taking unemployment rather than being kept on the payroll. And 205 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 1: these are all decisions and discussions that small businesses are 206 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:19,840 Speaker 1: having to have at the moment right well. And I 207 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 1: think the answer to that question is that since you 208 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 1: can't have both, you can't you can't both be on 209 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 1: the payroll of your employer to the p p P 210 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 1: and also on unemployment. Um, whatever you're spending on one side, 211 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 1: you're you're saving on the other. So um. But it's, 212 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:37,960 Speaker 1: as you said, it's very difficult right now to predict 213 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 1: exactly what people are going to do because there's no 214 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 1: sustinct as business. There's every business makes a different decision. 215 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 1: There's not one set across the board of however one's 216 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 1: going to decide. So we have seen I mean, look, 217 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:50,840 Speaker 1: there are going to be cases of people that decide 218 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:52,440 Speaker 1: I'm not going to go back to work because in 219 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 1: my state, I'm actually making more on unemployment than I 220 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 1: would by working. Obviously, there's an impediment to that, and 221 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 1: that is that many states have had their systems crash. 222 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 1: So there I know people have been waiting for three 223 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:05,200 Speaker 1: weeks to get into the Florida system because the phones 224 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:08,440 Speaker 1: are being answered. You know, the website was overwhelmed, etcetera. 225 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:10,680 Speaker 1: Some people are gonna say, you know, I'd rather just 226 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:12,559 Speaker 1: have my job back because I know I'm gonna get 227 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 1: paid and it's going to be there when this all ends. 228 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 1: The unemployment benefit goes away in four months, some people 229 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:19,959 Speaker 1: and some businesses are going to decide when I was 230 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 1: a perfect time to lay people off. You know, we 231 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 1: have a issue emerging with the hotels and restaurant particular hotels, 232 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 1: A lot of them came to us and asked for 233 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 1: special language. Many of them are franchises of big companies, 234 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 1: and but they're not owned by the company, so we 235 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:36,199 Speaker 1: created special language for them to be included in the 236 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:39,080 Speaker 1: Small Business Protection Program. And now some of them are saying, well, 237 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:40,959 Speaker 1: we want you to change the law. We don't want 238 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 1: to use the money for payroll. We want to use 239 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:44,480 Speaker 1: it to pay franchise fees and things of that nature. 240 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 1: And I was like, well, that's why it's called the 241 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:48,680 Speaker 1: Paycheck Protection Act. The reason why we carved you in 242 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 1: this because you told us you wanted to keep your 243 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 1: workers on payroll even if you had no people staying. 244 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 1: We're not going to do that. So you know, there's 245 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 1: a lot of that kind of stuff going on. And 246 00:12:57,240 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 1: I'm not saying they're not going through tough times, but 247 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 1: our program the wrong one for them to come to 248 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 1: for for the assistance they're seeking. If it's about keeping 249 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 1: people on the payroll, well for it. So the bottom 250 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:10,960 Speaker 1: line is, in an emergency, unprecedented situation, you're going to 251 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:13,440 Speaker 1: have a lot of unanticipated things come up. And what 252 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 1: we have to do is are on the side of action. 253 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 1: The worst thing that could happen is we don't do 254 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 1: anything real quickly. While we're in this situation now, and 255 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 1: there's this widespread view that it's nobody's fault that we 256 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 1: want to keep jab businesses and payrolls alive to get 257 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 1: through this health crisis, why not apply some of the 258 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 1: principles of payroll protection to some of the larger companies, 259 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 1: more direct cash grants to larger corporations that are currently 260 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:43,439 Speaker 1: getting helped maybe through the FED programs and so forth, 261 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 1: to either through suasion or force have them keep more 262 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:51,199 Speaker 1: people on the payroll. Well, I think if this is 263 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 1: a model that we can make work. Some people would 264 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:55,679 Speaker 1: argue that, and in fact, I remember nearing the end 265 00:13:55,720 --> 00:14:00,360 Speaker 1: of our deliberations and Senate one of the senator lunches 266 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 1: in the Republicly conference. We had a number of people 267 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 1: stand up and say, hey, why aren't we doing that 268 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:06,240 Speaker 1: for everybody? You know? But of course I'm the chairman 269 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:08,280 Speaker 1: of the Small Business Committee, and all we we took 270 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:10,320 Speaker 1: we so we we didn't have that in our mandate. 271 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:13,440 Speaker 1: We actually took on additional things like the no profit 272 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 1: sector and independent contractors and ten ninety nine employees that 273 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 1: qualifying or this as well for the first time. So 274 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 1: but I agree, I mean, I think there's a model 275 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 1: there that could be followed. Obviously a lot more money, 276 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 1: because when you're talking now about entities that employed thousands 277 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 1: of people, you're not talking about ten billion dollar loans 278 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 1: will pay roll over eight weeks. You're talking about multi 279 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 1: multibillion dollar loans. But I think it's a concept that 280 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 1: could theoretically work in those settings as well. I think 281 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 1: that the notion in that front was just um trying 282 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 1: to Most of those companies were just asking for access 283 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 1: to some credit vehicle that they could use to ride 284 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 1: through the short term of what they were facing. But 285 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 1: but I agree, I mean, I think it's a model 286 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 1: that could be applied to different businesses of different sizes. 287 00:14:57,440 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: Have you had any discussions with anyone else in government 288 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 1: about expanding it. Are people asking you how it's going 289 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 1: with the small business p p P. Yeah. So you know, 290 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 1: it's interesting because it's the one that's gotten the most 291 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 1: attention early on. And you know, when we started this process, 292 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 1: I would say, you know, the first day that came 293 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 1: out with the REGs was that Friday, we had a 294 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:18,000 Speaker 1: list of like thirty things that we were hearing from 295 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 1: bankers and lenders all across the country. And that list 296 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 1: has basically been narrowed down to minute little details. In essence, 297 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 1: it was a lot of work that went into sort 298 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 1: of getting these questions answered. Ivan Treasury today released its 299 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 1: third set of guidance that dealt with some additional questions 300 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 1: that were lingering. And in that process is you know, 301 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: I will tell you that every day is the first 302 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 1: day that this came out, I had twelve senators called 303 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 1: and even the second day we had eight. So people 304 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 1: are watching and there. Now what's happening now is people 305 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 1: are hearing from businesses that are actually having funds dispersed. 306 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 1: But I can tell you that during the process of 307 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 1: this conversation, there was talk about even among our work group, 308 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 1: are by partisan work group. Who else could we include? 309 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 1: And it really just came down as a function of dollars, 310 00:15:58,200 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 1: you know, when they originally told us we had three 311 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 1: hundred billion and then increased to three fifty. But if 312 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 1: they wanted us to take on some of the other 313 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 1: sectors that some people were talking about, it would need 314 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 1: a lot more than three fifty. It will probably take 315 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 1: up most of the bills. So um, there's been some 316 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 1: talk about it, but really the focus over the last 317 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 1: week has been about improving the program and the questions 318 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 1: that we're holding back lenders, and luckily we've been able 319 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 1: to do most of that. And then one of the 320 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 1: things I focused on a lot is some of the 321 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 1: underserved communities, uh small, really small micro businesses, minority communities 322 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 1: that may not have sta strong banking relationships and therefore 323 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 1: having access problems. And that's why I've been harping all 324 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 1: week on the need to bring in non bank lenders, 325 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 1: which is in the bill right. This is not something 326 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 1: we came up with. Now. The bill specifically talks about 327 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 1: fin techs and non bank lenders being on ramped into 328 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 1: the system, and that's beginning to happen where approximately individual 329 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 1: lenders now are participating, from credit unions to small banks, 330 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 1: and as they're as they're ramping up and coming on 331 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 1: the system, it creates more access points. And I'm really 332 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 1: excited about payper au and fin techs because PayPal told 333 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:05,160 Speaker 1: me the first leon they made was five thousand dollars, 334 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 1: So that gives you an idea of the small, small, small, 335 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:12,280 Speaker 1: micro business impact this could happen and m and I 336 00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 1: think as that ramps up, I think those access issues 337 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 1: are going to be improved. That's really what we've been 338 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:20,720 Speaker 1: focusing on here in the last few days. Senator, before 339 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 1: you have to go in a few more minutes, let's 340 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 1: talk about the sort of post crisis period. Hopefully the 341 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 1: health crisis ends quickly and businesses of various sorts can reopen, 342 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:33,960 Speaker 1: and everyone wants that, but I also think that sort 343 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:36,960 Speaker 1: of realistically, we know not all businesses are going to reopen. 344 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 1: Most economists expect unemployment to remain somewhat elevated for quite 345 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:43,960 Speaker 1: some time. What do you see as either in a 346 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:47,399 Speaker 1: round four or round five of what the government can 347 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:49,359 Speaker 1: be doing to get us We were at what a 348 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 1: lot of people thought was full employment, three point five 349 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:56,120 Speaker 1: percent unemployment, the best levels in decades. How what could 350 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 1: the government do to get us is back to that 351 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 1: as fast as possible. Well, I think it really begins 352 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 1: by people in positions of influence and leadership being brutally honest, 353 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 1: and that is we're not going to go back immediately 354 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:09,439 Speaker 1: the way things were March first. I think when you 355 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 1: start to see here whenever that is different jurisdictions and 356 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:17,679 Speaker 1: states begin to modify the restrictions they've put in place, 357 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:20,480 Speaker 1: it isn't gonna be zero to sixty. It's gonna be 358 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:22,920 Speaker 1: you know, we're gonna reopen parks and we're gonna allow 359 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 1: kids to go to school for two hours, but you're 360 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 1: still gonna have a lot of the same regulations in 361 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:30,120 Speaker 1: place for a while. And that includes, you know, how 362 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:32,000 Speaker 1: close you can stand in line to people, how many 363 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:34,199 Speaker 1: people can gather into place. That's just a fact that 364 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 1: people need to absorb that that we're not going to 365 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 1: go back to just March first right away. The second 366 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:40,879 Speaker 1: point I would make is I will try to divide 367 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:43,440 Speaker 1: this up into three buckets. The first is, we don't 368 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 1: know yet how bad the damage is. This reminds me 369 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 1: of a hurricane. You're sitting at home and hurricane is 370 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:50,439 Speaker 1: howling outside and it sounds really bad, and you know 371 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:52,439 Speaker 1: it's really bad, and you see some trees falling and 372 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 1: branches breaking, but you have no idea how widespread the 373 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:57,919 Speaker 1: damage is. Until it's over and you come outside and 374 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 1: you start to do a damage assessment. We won't know 375 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:02,720 Speaker 1: the full economic damage. And some of it's gonna have 376 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:05,200 Speaker 1: a tail to It's gonna linger for some period of time, 377 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 1: so that before we can even talk about exactly how 378 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 1: to solve that, we have to know the full extent 379 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 1: of it. I think we're related to that is not 380 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:15,200 Speaker 1: just how to recover, but some strategic decisions we're gonna 381 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 1: have to make about the structure of our economy. And 382 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 1: in particular, I am a huge supporter of capitalism because 383 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:26,119 Speaker 1: capitalism always reaches the most efficient outcome. But every now 384 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:27,879 Speaker 1: and then, the most efficient outcome is not in our 385 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:30,920 Speaker 1: national interest, and we have faced that here with critical 386 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 1: shortages of certain things. You know, we don't have a 387 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 1: critical shortage, for example, in our food supply. We may 388 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:39,480 Speaker 1: have some disruptions eventually, but not shortages because we can 389 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 1: domestically feed ourselves, but we can't make pep you know. Uh. 390 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:46,919 Speaker 1: Personal protection equipment. We struggle to make ventilators. We had 391 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:50,159 Speaker 1: to repurpose industries for that. Some of the basic active 392 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 1: ingredients and our leading pharmaceuticals come from abroad, I think, 393 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 1: and not to mention if you want to get into 394 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 1: other realms, things like rarest minerals and telecommunication and so 395 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:01,879 Speaker 1: the question be times when is something so critical to 396 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:04,879 Speaker 1: our national security or national well being, But we have 397 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 1: to have a domestic capacity to do it. Even if 398 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 1: it's from a pure market perspective, it's not the most 399 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 1: efficient place to do it. And that's a that leads 400 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:16,879 Speaker 1: us to industrial policy, which is something we've talked about 401 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:18,720 Speaker 1: for a couple of years. I'm not saying that applies 402 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 1: to every industry, but there are some. We're gonna have 403 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:22,439 Speaker 1: to define what they are and we're gonna have to 404 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:26,360 Speaker 1: have policies around that. Well, just on that point, I mean, 405 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:29,680 Speaker 1: you yourself put out a paper about how you see 406 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 1: the economy last year. Do you think there's a broader 407 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:38,359 Speaker 1: rethink in the GOP about economics and how it should work, 408 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:41,640 Speaker 1: maybe moving away from free markets towards a system where 409 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:44,760 Speaker 1: there is a greater role for the government. And secondly, 410 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:47,720 Speaker 1: if that's the case, how do you get Republican voters 411 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:51,680 Speaker 1: to actually vote for government rule or government policy that 412 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:55,440 Speaker 1: could be in their interests. Well, I would argue to 413 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 1: you that we already have government policy that makes those 414 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:00,200 Speaker 1: sources of decisions. No, I'm not talking about government owning 415 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 1: the means of production or even directing the means of production. 416 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:07,280 Speaker 1: I'm talking about government having policies that incentivize certain capacities 417 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:10,399 Speaker 1: domestically that wouldn't otherwise exist. But we do that now. 418 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:12,960 Speaker 1: We do that now through our tax code. Our tax 419 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 1: code has an immediate tax benefit to for example, returning 420 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 1: value to your investors to share by back, so that, um, 421 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 1: we we incentivize that. There's nothing inherently evil about it, 422 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 1: but we incentivize it. And maybe we should be incentivizing 423 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,920 Speaker 1: investment instead. And then there are some industries, for example, 424 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:33,639 Speaker 1: that it will never be cost effective to mind for 425 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:36,679 Speaker 1: rare earth minerals in the US, because the Chinese are 426 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 1: subsidizing their industry and are going to undercut our price point. 427 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:41,679 Speaker 1: But we don't want to be dependent on them, and 428 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 1: so we're gonna have to come up with some government 429 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 1: policies to even the playing field. You see that somewhat 430 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:49,240 Speaker 1: in telecommunications in this whole five G issue with Huawei, 431 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 1: where there are there are no non Chinese companies that 432 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 1: are able to offer the product of always offering because 433 00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 1: they're able to do it at a lower cost because 434 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 1: they're subsidized and protected domestically as well in their market 435 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:05,199 Speaker 1: by the Chinese government. So that is not We're not 436 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:07,440 Speaker 1: We're we're not. We're not talking about socialism, not talking 437 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:09,960 Speaker 1: about communism, We're not talking about government ownership of the 438 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 1: telecommunications industry. But we are saying, to the extent you're 439 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 1: going to have incentives for certain outcomes in your economy, 440 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 1: should they not be incentives towards outcomes that serve the 441 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 1: national interest, which include national security. But I would argue 442 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 1: also in food, the creation of dignified work that's widely 443 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:30,480 Speaker 1: available so that you can have strong communities and strong families. 444 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:33,960 Speaker 1: But just real quickly and then we'll wrap up. I mean, 445 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,120 Speaker 1: Tracy mentioned this report you put out a year ago, 446 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:40,399 Speaker 1: and I was pretty astonished at the time, this called 447 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 1: American Investment in the twenty first century. Fascinating paper. It's 448 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:48,680 Speaker 1: cited a number of like random obscure left wing economists 449 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 1: that like I follow on Twitter, I couldn't even really 450 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 1: believe it was coming from a senator, let a loan, 451 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 1: a Republican senator in your caucus. Do you sense some 452 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 1: sort of shift or some sort of um, you know, 453 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:03,879 Speaker 1: increased skepticism or rethinking about some of the lease a 454 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 1: fair views. It did not seem like the sort of 455 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:09,200 Speaker 1: the Heritage Institute views that I was sort of used 456 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:11,680 Speaker 1: to seeing from Republicans for many years. And I'm curious 457 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:14,520 Speaker 1: if you think there is some general shift in sort 458 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:17,480 Speaker 1: of this philosophy. You know, it's a work in progress. 459 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 1: I would argue to you that most of us in 460 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,639 Speaker 1: Republican politics are a product of, you know, twenty or 461 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 1: twenty five years of sort of uh, the you know, 462 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:29,400 Speaker 1: the LEAs a fair libertarian view of economics, and that's 463 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 1: deeply embedded in in a lot of the decisions and 464 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 1: policies that Republicans of pursuit. And generally they're right, I mean, 465 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:37,919 Speaker 1: low taxes, less spending, all these this is the ideal outcome. 466 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:40,119 Speaker 1: And I don't argue against any of that. I'm not 467 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 1: arguing that we should be a high tax environment or 468 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 1: a high regulatory environment, but I am arguing that within 469 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,199 Speaker 1: that framework, there are certain exceptions that are in our 470 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 1: national interests, and I think the crisis has revealed some 471 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 1: of them, um, in terms of the inability to ramp 472 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 1: up production of certain things without massive disrupt asking, you know, 473 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 1: Ford and General motors to make ventilators and so forth. 474 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:06,360 Speaker 1: So I think there's a growing sense of it. I'm 475 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:08,879 Speaker 1: not sure it's still I can tell you when we 476 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,680 Speaker 1: did the tax bill, there was a tremendous amount of 477 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,160 Speaker 1: pushback against the child tax credit. A lot of people 478 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:16,240 Speaker 1: viewed it as some sort of a welfare payment. And 479 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:19,400 Speaker 1: my argument was, whether they're paying it in payroll tax 480 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:21,960 Speaker 1: or they're paying it in income tax, it's still a tax. 481 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 1: It's money that's coming out of their paycheck. And and 482 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:27,879 Speaker 1: and our tax coach should reflect what we say is 483 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 1: one of our priorities, which is strong families. I think 484 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:33,600 Speaker 1: that ironically, that turned out to be the most popular 485 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:36,399 Speaker 1: part of the tax bill that we've passed, and UM 486 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 1: and I wanted to actually do more in that regard 487 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 1: than we ended up doing. We've got an increased but 488 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:42,440 Speaker 1: we wanted to do more. So I'd say this is 489 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,119 Speaker 1: still a work in progress, but there are certainly a 490 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:48,200 Speaker 1: growing number of people today in the Senate and in 491 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:51,399 Speaker 1: the House who share these views to some degree. A 492 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,880 Speaker 1: Senator Rubio, really appreciate you taking the time and thank 493 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:56,800 Speaker 1: you for coming on the podcast. Thanks for having me. 494 00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:16,359 Speaker 1: Thanks so much. Well, Tracy, I really enjoyed sort of 495 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 1: getting the chance to um. I would say, you know, 496 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 1: it's a cliche, but here how the sausage is made 497 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:25,720 Speaker 1: just a little bit, because you know, on the one hand, 498 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 1: the Cares Act, it was incredibly rapid from the onset 499 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:33,560 Speaker 1: of the downturn in late February early March, it was 500 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:36,320 Speaker 1: just a few weeks by lightning. You know, that's lightning 501 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 1: by Washington standards. On the other hand, there's so much 502 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,440 Speaker 1: damage and even by early March. I remember we were talking, 503 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 1: you know, we talked with Claudia sam in early March. 504 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:47,440 Speaker 1: It's like send the checks out now. And so it's 505 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:51,240 Speaker 1: kind of interesting hearing from his perspective all the different 506 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:53,919 Speaker 1: calculations and the sort of different factors that have to 507 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 1: go into a bill of this size. Yeah, it was 508 00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,679 Speaker 1: also interesting to hear him talk about the role of 509 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 1: the inks, and he sounded pretty pleased with it. One 510 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,679 Speaker 1: of the criticisms of the program has been the idea 511 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 1: that the money is running through banks which actually have 512 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,680 Speaker 1: to make the loans even though they're guaranteed by the government. 513 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:16,320 Speaker 1: Could that function have been better fulfilled by something else, 514 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 1: such as, you know, some sort of government body. So 515 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 1: it's interesting to hear him talk about that, as well 516 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:25,120 Speaker 1: as the participation of the fintech firms. One other thing 517 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 1: I was thinking during the discussion was just how important 518 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:34,000 Speaker 1: hierarchy and incentives are in government. So he mentioned, you 519 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 1: know that this had happened for small businesses partly because 520 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:39,959 Speaker 1: he was head of the Small Business Committee and so 521 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 1: that was his job. He was tasked to help that 522 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:46,760 Speaker 1: particular component of the economy, and that's how this program 523 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 1: came about. Yeah. Absolutely. I also thought it was interesting 524 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 1: that he did say that it could be a model 525 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 1: and we haven't seen it yet, but it could be 526 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 1: a model in the future for Okay, well, if you're 527 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 1: going to give company small businesses grant to not do layoffs, 528 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:08,399 Speaker 1: why not do something similar for large companies. And the 529 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:11,640 Speaker 1: fact that it had been discussed within the center, within 530 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 1: the Republican Caucus, the fact that he was open to it, 531 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,919 Speaker 1: I thought was pretty interesting, and just generally it was 532 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:21,120 Speaker 1: you know, he's been like on Twitter talking a lot 533 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 1: about the rollout, so I guess it was good to 534 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 1: hear his view that things are getting better and getting 535 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:31,640 Speaker 1: smoother on the disbursement of fund standpoint absolutely. And then 536 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,720 Speaker 1: the other interesting thing was, of course, the broader discussion 537 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 1: about how the Republican Party is thinking about economics at 538 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:42,160 Speaker 1: the moment. If you haven't read the policy paper, American 539 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,479 Speaker 1: Investment in the twenty one Century is definitely worth reading. 540 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:49,360 Speaker 1: Perhaps something you wouldn't necessarily expect to be coming from 541 00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 1: a Republican senator. But one thing that always interests me 542 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:56,399 Speaker 1: in this discussion is I feel like, even if Republicans 543 00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:00,639 Speaker 1: are moving towards a position where there is potentially a 544 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:06,000 Speaker 1: role for greater participation by the government, I always wonder 545 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 1: if voters are going to be on board with that, 546 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 1: especially since voters have been told, you know, for three 547 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:15,359 Speaker 1: decades now that the government should be as small as possible, 548 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 1: that intervention regulation, it's all bad for them. I always 549 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 1: wonder if that public shift is possible or can happen 550 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:29,280 Speaker 1: as quickly as some people might want it to. I 551 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,119 Speaker 1: think it'll be really interesting. I mean, we're going to 552 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:34,680 Speaker 1: be in this country, for sure, dealing with the sort 553 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 1: of economic and political fallout prices. Right, so maybe this 554 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 1: is the moment when that shift happens. Well yeah, I 555 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 1: mean a we were just at you know, three point 556 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 1: four or three point five unemployment. The number of people 557 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:51,800 Speaker 1: who are either seeing their small businesses or businesses of 558 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:56,200 Speaker 1: any size go from drop lose revenue in a matter 559 00:28:56,240 --> 00:29:00,240 Speaker 1: of days. The number of people who are experienced seeing 560 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 1: job procarity or job straight up job laws, people in 561 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:06,320 Speaker 1: all kinds of areas. I mean, think about it. If 562 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:08,640 Speaker 1: you imagine if you were a dentist before you never 563 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 1: thought okay, you didn't think teeth are recession. But suddenly 564 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 1: here you have an economic crisis in which no one 565 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 1: is going out, no one is going to the dentist. 566 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 1: So the idea of sort of labor market procarity economic 567 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 1: procarity is reaching a whole new realm of people in 568 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 1: this crisis. So it does feel like and for better 569 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,920 Speaker 1: or worse, this could open up sort of new thinking 570 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 1: and new opportunities, sort of the new ideas among people 571 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 1: that it's like, oh wow, I am really exposed to 572 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:40,880 Speaker 1: economic volatility in a way that I had previously realized. 573 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,760 Speaker 1: And again I think people should really read this paper. 574 00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 1: As you mentioned, because I wasn't kidding. It's like, you know, 575 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 1: one of these points, it is like going after a 576 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:52,960 Speaker 1: shareholder primacy and how that's hurt the role of American businesses. 577 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:56,400 Speaker 1: The It will be interesting to see if these ideas 578 00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 1: and this crisis allows some of these ideas to further 579 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 1: take root within the party. This discussion always makes me 580 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 1: think of relativism versus absolutism, So I always think of 581 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 1: the Republican Party is sort of a relativist party in 582 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 1: the sense that if a policy is enacted people Republicans 583 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 1: tend to get upset. I'm basing a lot of this 584 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,680 Speaker 1: off my dad, by the way. Um, but Republicans tend 585 00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 1: to get upset if it benefits someone else more than them. 586 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 1: There's this sort of sense of unfairness, I guess about it. 587 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 1: But maybe this is the moment when that starts to 588 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:36,240 Speaker 1: change and it shifts more towards a sort of absolute 589 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 1: gains kind of regime. But um, yeah, let's see, there's 590 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:43,320 Speaker 1: a we'll be talking about this for a long time. 591 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:45,760 Speaker 1: There'll be a lot to a lot to a lot 592 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 1: to chew over. Indeed, all right, well, this has been 593 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 1: another episode of the All Thoughts podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. 594 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,480 Speaker 1: You can follow me on Twitter at Tracy Alloway and 595 00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 1: I'm Joe Why Isn't All? You can follow me on 596 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:01,680 Speaker 1: Twitter at the Start Work, And you should follow our 597 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:05,960 Speaker 1: guest on Twitter, Florida Senator Marco Rubio. He's at Marco 598 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:10,000 Speaker 1: Rubio and follow our producer on Twitter, Laura Carlson. She's 599 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:14,040 Speaker 1: at Laura M. Carlson. Followed the Bloomberg head of Podcasts 600 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:17,880 Speaker 1: on Twitter, Francesca Levi at Francesca Today, and check out 601 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 1: all of our podcasts unto the handle at podcasts. Thanks 602 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:22,440 Speaker 1: for listening.