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Speaker 1: On November fifth, nineteen eighty six, Scott Macklum, the son

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Speaker 1: of the mayor of Croswell, Michigan, was fatally shot in

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Speaker 1: the parking lot of Saint Clair County Community College. A

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Speaker 1: fingerprint was pulled from a box of shells at the scene.

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Speaker 1: Some students described a potential getaway car as a Redder

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Speaker 1: Tan Sedan, but no one had gotten a good look

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Speaker 1: at the shoot her. One student, Rennie Gobain, intent on

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Speaker 1: involving himself, submitted to hypnotherapy in order to recall the

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Speaker 1: license plate number, but it didn't return any results. Eventually,

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Speaker 1: the victims alleged fiance, Crystal Merrill, pointed authorities in the

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Speaker 1: direction of her ex Temogen Kensu, even though the fingerprints

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Speaker 1: didn't match and credible alibi witnesses placed Temagen over four

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Speaker 1: hundred miles away. Authorities put his photo in a very

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Speaker 1: suggestive lineup, and again Rennie Gobain came to eight investigators

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Speaker 1: with an identification. Temasien's rock solid alibi and the lack

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Speaker 1: of any physical evidence connecting him to the crime was

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Speaker 1: overcome by Rennie Gobain's dubious identification. A character assassination campaign

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Speaker 1: that should have been inadmissible. The jury was made to

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Speaker 1: believe that Temigen was a Satanic sex raised ninja assassin,

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Speaker 1: capable of mind control, and although deeply in debt, he

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Speaker 1: was somehow still able to arrange an undocumented private round

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Speaker 1: trip flight to commit a murder allegedly over a woman

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Speaker 1: who he no longer cared to be within four hundred

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Speaker 1: miles of The prosecutor, Robert Cleland is now a federal judge,

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Speaker 1: Temogen is still in prison, and the current Attorney General,

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Speaker 1: Dana Nessel, who was elected in part to start a

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Speaker 1: conviction integrity unit, refuses to end this well recognized injustice.

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Speaker 1: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction. I

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Speaker 1: gotta say, I'm flabbergasted at what we're about to do today.

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Speaker 1: It's just nuts. I mean, this case, the case of

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Speaker 1: Temwijen Kenzu, is like a masterclass in the failings of

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Speaker 1: our criminal legal system and our social system as well.

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Speaker 1: By the way, but the criminal legal system is on

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Speaker 1: full display in all of its terrors. And this particular

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Speaker 1: case is in Michigan, but to be fair, it could

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Speaker 1: have been in any state. But here to help us

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Speaker 1: tell this story is the man who's been working his

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Speaker 1: butt off to get mister Kenzo out of prison. And

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Speaker 1: I'm talking, of course about Amorn Sayed, who is the

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Speaker 1: co director of the Michigan Innocence Clinic and a professor

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Speaker 1: at Michigan Law School. Amorn, thanks so much for being

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Speaker 1: here with us today.

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Speaker 2: Of course, thank you for having.

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Speaker 1: Me, and now I am we are honored to be

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Speaker 1: joined from a Michigan prison by Temigen Kenzu. Temigen, thanks

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Speaker 1: for calling in.

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Speaker 3: Thank you Jason, Thank you to all the listeners out

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Speaker 3: there too.

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Speaker 1: Now, Temison, you've been in prison since before probably a

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Speaker 1: lot of our listeners were even born, and it pains

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Speaker 1: me to say that it's really insane. But when they

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Speaker 1: hear about the maniacal developments in this case, which should

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Speaker 1: have had nothing to do with you because you were

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Speaker 1: over four hundred miles away at the time of the

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Speaker 1: murder and provably so, I'm going to imagine that they

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Speaker 1: will feel exactly the same way. But first, tell us

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Speaker 1: about your life before all of this happened.

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Speaker 3: I was born in Flint, Michigan, as nineteen sixty three.

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Speaker 3: My parents separated when I was very young, around three

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Speaker 3: or four years old. From that point on, my mother

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Speaker 3: became very resentful towards me, kind of that story. You know,

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Speaker 3: you're your father in every possible way, whether it was

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Speaker 3: the good or the bad. And it became a very

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Speaker 3: violent household, a very abusive household. You know, I was

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Speaker 3: not going to strike my mother back, so I basically

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Speaker 3: got pounded a lot. It became physically apparent what was

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Speaker 3: going on. I ran away a couple of times, and

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Speaker 3: eventually I wound up in the Reach foster program in

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Speaker 3: Flint until I returned home for the last time at

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Speaker 3: about fifteen. And by the time I was sixteen, I

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Speaker 3: was gone for good and living with my grandmother and

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Speaker 3: pretty much raising myself.

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Speaker 1: Now telling Jen that wasn't always your name. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you were born Fred Freeman, but you later received the

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Speaker 1: name Tamagen Kenzu from your Buddhist instructor, right, and later

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Speaker 1: officially change it while you're in prison. But your fascination

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Speaker 1: with Eastern philosophies and disciplines had roots in your formative years,

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Speaker 1: mostly because of learning martial arts to block all of

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Speaker 1: the attacks that have been coming your way.

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Speaker 3: You got that, Yeah, that's true. I was getting pounded

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Speaker 3: a lot, and as I said, I wasn't going to

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Speaker 3: strike my mother and I was at a drive in

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Speaker 3: but I was probably nine years old, nine or ten

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Speaker 3: years old, and I saw a movie and I saw

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Speaker 3: this in crucial artis just blocking every blow that was

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Speaker 3: thrown at him. I also lived in a very violent area,

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Speaker 3: and I saw this way to defend myself. You know.

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Speaker 3: I learned to learn to block and duck and you know,

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Speaker 3: jump out of the way and all the magical things

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Speaker 3: we see in martial arts movies. And I said, I'm

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Speaker 3: going to learn to do that.

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Speaker 1: And you really excelled at martial arts, from what I'm told,

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Speaker 1: and so much so that you were invited to live

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Speaker 1: and train in Korea. Wow, but your mother would not

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Speaker 1: allow it. You also excelled academically and went into the

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Speaker 1: military after high school. But despite excelling there as well,

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Speaker 1: shin splints from your years of martial arts training kept

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Speaker 1: you from moving up in ranks, and which of course

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Speaker 1: kept you at the minimum pay three or four years there.

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Speaker 1: And that couple with some reckless spending as a young man,

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Speaker 1: which again I can relate because I did it too,

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Speaker 1: you started racking up some debt. Now you were honorably

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Speaker 1: discharged and moved to Washington State, where you had a

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Speaker 1: child with a woman named Galen. And then at some

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Speaker 1: point you lost your job and out of desperation, wrote

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Speaker 1: some overdraft checks to cover your debt's thinking that you

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Speaker 1: just pay the fees and get the collectors off your back.

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Speaker 1: But you ended up getting prosecuted for theft by the

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Speaker 1: check insurance company. You didn't go to jail, but you

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Speaker 1: were put on probation.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I had written some bad checks. I deliberately overdrafted

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Speaker 3: my account when I was in Washington State between nineteen

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Speaker 3: eighty two and nineteen eighty three. Now, just so everyone understands,

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Speaker 3: and I'm not defending what I did. I was charged

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Speaker 3: with what they call first degree theft out there, and

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Speaker 3: I was placed on probation, so no prison or anything

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Speaker 3: like that. I didn't agree to pay everything back, and

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Speaker 3: i'd actually already begun to do some volunteer work for

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Speaker 3: some of the businesses. Actually I paid off my entire

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Speaker 3: balance while i'd been in prison on this bit, about

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Speaker 3: five six hundred dollars.

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Speaker 1: So you made good on it. The point of bringing

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Speaker 1: it up is to show that you were both struggling

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Speaker 1: financially and now the system had its hooks into you.

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Speaker 1: So you were on probation in Washington. Your daughter's mother

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Speaker 1: decided to head back to Michigan, and you eventually lost custody.

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Speaker 1: You had a few probation violations. They're almost impossible to avoid,

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Speaker 1: but somehow Washington State agreed to let you go back

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Speaker 1: to Michigan, where you looked up a high school sweetheart

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Speaker 1: named Michelle Woodworth. You two connected had a son, but

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Speaker 1: you also had an open relationship. Now you live together

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Speaker 1: in a cabin in ann Arbor along with your childhood

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Speaker 1: friend Tom Ford. You were working studying martial arts and Buddhism,

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Speaker 1: very much into health and nutrition at the time, you

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Speaker 1: rode a motorcycle or a leather jacket. And to round

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Speaker 1: out this picture, I also understand that you were the

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Speaker 1: lead singer and a couple of bands back in the day.

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Speaker 3: You know, I don't want to brag, but I was

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Speaker 3: a pretty good singer. It was a dream when I

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Speaker 3: was young, in that horrible life at home, to get

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Speaker 3: out maybe through music.

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Speaker 1: And I don't think it'll surprise anyone that a lead

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Speaker 1: singer can be popular with the ladies right this long history.

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Speaker 1: I think it's why people become lean singers sometimes. But anyway,

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Speaker 1: there was one young lady in particularly named Crystal Merrill

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Speaker 1: from the Boorjuron area, which is a short drive for

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Speaker 1: man Arbor, and she became part of the reason why

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Speaker 1: we're having this discussion today. But let's back up a

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Speaker 1: bit here. So you and Michelle Woodworth, as I mentioned,

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Speaker 1: had an open relationship, so you were seeing other women.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't a secret to her. And to put a

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Speaker 1: fine point on how long ago this was, you met

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Speaker 1: Crystal Merril at a video store.

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Speaker 3: So I was looking at some musical equipment in the

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Speaker 3: music store and I went to the video store and

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Speaker 3: there was a girl and then that was Crystal Meryl.

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Speaker 3: She started hitting on me, and I was young, and

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Speaker 3: I was pretty susceptible of that kind of positive attention.

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Speaker 3: And she's like, Oh, let me take you out to

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Speaker 3: dinner and I'll pay for everything, and blah blah blah.

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Speaker 3: And you know, I went for it and I went

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Speaker 3: out with her. We wound up having physical relations We

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Speaker 3: went out several times. She became obsessive. She was trying

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Speaker 3: to change my clothing. She was trying to give me

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Speaker 3: a change my hair, get rid of my motorcycle, stop

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Speaker 3: wearing a leather jacket. Stop singing rock and roll. He

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Speaker 3: just went on on. She's basically trying to sculp me

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Speaker 3: into the man that she wanted me to be. So

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Speaker 3: she liked, let's say six things about me, and didn't

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Speaker 3: like ten things about me. One day she comes with

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Speaker 3: a bag full of Eyeside shirts. You know, this is

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Speaker 3: the eighties, those pink and lime green with a little alligator.

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Speaker 3: It's like, I'm not wearing this. I've got on like

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Speaker 3: an Iron Maiden T shirt and a leather jacket and

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Speaker 3: shredded jeans.

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Speaker 1: You know, right, you're a rock and roll guy. I

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Speaker 1: mean you weren't trying to hang at the country club

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Speaker 1: with Chad and Blake and were penny loafers, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Oh my god, I swear I used

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Speaker 3: to say she wanted me to be Blake.

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Speaker 1: That's hilarious.

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Speaker 3: And I'm like, listen, you don't like anything about me, Okay,

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Speaker 3: you don't like my hair, you like my clothes, you

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Speaker 3: don't like anything about me. I don't want to be

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Speaker 3: with you. She started stalking me and driving by.

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Speaker 1: And I understand there was a boiling point where she

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Speaker 1: made some dramatic public spectacle at a party and your

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Speaker 1: friend Tom became concerned about how Crystal's erratic behavior could

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Speaker 1: be dangerous considering your probation status. Once the system gets

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Speaker 1: it soaks into you, you have to fly so straight,

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Speaker 1: you have to throw at such a needle and be

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Speaker 1: like Goodie two shoes just in order to stay at

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Speaker 1: a prison. And you had already had another minor brush

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Speaker 1: with the law in pleasant Ridge, Michigan. So the three

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Speaker 1: of you packed up and moved to Escanaba, which is

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Speaker 1: way the hell up in the Upper Peninsula, over four

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Speaker 1: hundred miles from Port Huron, where Crystal was licking her wounds,

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Speaker 1: and from what we understand, after you left, she got

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Speaker 1: involved with some other men and got pregnant. Now, one

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Speaker 1: of those men turned out to be the victim in

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Speaker 1: this case, Scott macklum, and he was the son of

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Speaker 1: the mayor of Croswell, Michigan. And Crystal later claimed that

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Speaker 1: they were engaged and that her unborn child was also his,

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Speaker 1: But we're not even sure if that's true. And it

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Speaker 1: was your previous fling with Crystal that became the basis

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Speaker 1: for the States theory for your alleged motive. But what

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Speaker 1: seems way more compelling, which is something that the police

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Speaker 1: never investigated. Was some of Scott's entanglements in the lead

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Speaker 1: up to November of eighty six.

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Speaker 3: Prior to his being killed. Supposed that he got in

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Speaker 3: some kind of a car chase. All these things were

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Speaker 3: happening to this guy. He had a job in some

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Speaker 3: kind of a men's clothing store, George and his men's wear,

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Speaker 3: and there are multiple instants of these two guys coming

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Speaker 3: into his workplace, according to witnesses from the store. And

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Speaker 3: I have the reports, and anybody wants to see him,

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Speaker 3: we'll share them with you. And says he knew these

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Speaker 3: guys on site, and there were two of them, and

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Speaker 3: it said the first time they came in the story,

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Speaker 3: he had a confrontation with them that almost became violent,

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Speaker 3: and it says he challenged them to fight. Says the

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Speaker 3: second time they came in the store and he saw them,

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Speaker 3: he was so scared he ran in the back of

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Speaker 3: the store and he hid. So whatever happened from the

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Speaker 3: first incident to the second, he was terrified at these guys.

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Speaker 3: The morning that he was murdered at the college, according

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Speaker 3: to people there, he was in the college for some reason.

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Speaker 3: Nobody knows why. Sub zero morning in November of nineteen

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Speaker 3: eighty six, but he skipped his classes, but he was

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Speaker 3: in the school with his gym bag, but he never

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Speaker 3: went to gym. We have his college records. He was

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Speaker 3: skipping more and more and more of his classes and

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Speaker 3: we know announ it's because he had a drug problem.

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Speaker 3: And he was also dealing drugs at the college. And

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Speaker 3: we found multiple dealers that have confirmed this. So I

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Speaker 3: want people to know that I'm not just saying this

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Speaker 3: whatever his family says. They knew he had a drug problem.

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Speaker 3: We found dealers that knew his father, that his father

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Speaker 3: was paying off his drug debts.

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Speaker 1: So Scott was in trouble. I mean, his wealthy father,

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Speaker 1: the mayor, had tried to save him several times. And

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Speaker 1: you can see how this could have been very embarrassing

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Speaker 1: for a local politician like him, especially back in the

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Speaker 1: eighties when attitudes about drug use were informed by the

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Speaker 1: colossal public policy failure known as the War on Drugs.

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Speaker 1: That same policy also created the environment at which violent

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Speaker 1: crimes like this one occurred. And that brings us to

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Speaker 1: the morning of November fifth, nineteen eighty six, when Scott

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Speaker 1: had been at the community college curiously cutting class while

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Speaker 1: carrying a gym bag while not going to the gym.

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Speaker 1: There were also reports that he appeared to be running

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Speaker 1: from the student center to his car when this tragic

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Speaker 1: incident occurred around nine am, Imron, can you tell us

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Speaker 1: a little bit about this.

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Speaker 2: It's a tragedy, of course. A man was shot and

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Speaker 2: killed in a community a college parking lot in Port Huron, Michigan.

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Speaker 2: You know, he was kind of shot near his car.

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Speaker 3: He's seen running out of the student center. The witnesses

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Speaker 3: said he was running from the student center to his

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Speaker 3: vehicle and then was shot somewhere in front of his

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Speaker 3: vehicle and made it to the front left tire's vehicle

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Speaker 3: where he fell.

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Speaker 1: So the assailant fired a shotgun once at Scott Macklum,

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Speaker 1: leaving him on the driver's side of the car. The

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Speaker 1: key was still in the door. One shellcasing and a

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Speaker 1: box of shells were found at the scene. A latent

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Speaker 1: print was pulled from the box of shells, and the

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Speaker 1: murder weapon was never recovered. So this is a busy,

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Speaker 1: bustling community college parking lot, and you would think somebody

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Speaker 1: would have seen something, right.

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Speaker 2: No one saw the actual shooting itself, at least no

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Speaker 2: one has come forward that saw the actual shooting, so

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Speaker 2: the case was built through the testimony of people that

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Speaker 2: saw things that happened kind of a little bit before

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Speaker 2: or right afterward. One of the witnesses said that he

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Speaker 2: heard the gunshot and kind of as he was looking around,

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Speaker 2: he saw a car driving away kind of fast, and

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Speaker 2: you know, he had only got a fleeting look at

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Speaker 2: the person.

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Speaker 1: Right. This was Rennie Gobain, who said that he heard

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Speaker 1: what sounded like a tire had blown out, which caused

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Speaker 1: him to notice a light, tan, foreign hatchback style car

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Speaker 1: leaving a lot. There's no certainty about whether this car

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Speaker 1: was even connected to the crime, but nonetheless he saw

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Speaker 1: this alleged assailant through the windshield as he drove by,

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Speaker 1: wearing a dark blue ski cap not covering his face,

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Speaker 1: but according to Gobain, his head was tilted down the

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Speaker 1: entire time, so Gobain didn't even get a good look

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Speaker 1: at this alleged assailant. Now, Renny Gobain wrote down a

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Speaker 1: license plate number and reported it to police, but the

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Speaker 1: number didn't turn up a match, so Gobain was then

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Speaker 1: hypnotized by his psychology professor in order to try to

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Speaker 1: better recall the plate number. I mean, this is just embarrassing,

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Speaker 1: and the results were about as probative as one might think. Now,

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Speaker 1: Renny Gobain also initially said that the car was a

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Speaker 1: foreign hatchback, but later inexplicably and suspiciously, I would say,

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Speaker 1: changed his description to a Ford Escort station wagon. Now,

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Speaker 1: this change curiously happened after a nineonymous tip came in

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Speaker 1: saying that the alleged assailant had just been spotted driving one. Curiously, again,

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Speaker 1: that tip came in after Timodgy had already been arrested.

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Speaker 1: So why did Gobain change this initial description to a

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Speaker 1: very specific and conflicting description that matched an anonymous tip.

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Speaker 1: And was that anonymous tip even real. We don't know

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Speaker 1: the answers to either of those questions, but we can

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Speaker 1: certainly speculate that Gobain had been fed more information by investigators.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, back to the immediate aftermath. So there was

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Speaker 1: also this other witness named Richard Krueger, who was even

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Speaker 1: further removed from the scene and any meaningful information than

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Speaker 1: even Gobain was.

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Speaker 2: Right, he had just seen a man that he deemed

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Speaker 2: suspicious loitering nearby near some bushes in an adjoining parking lot,

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Speaker 2: and that was about an hour before the shooting.

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Speaker 1: Right, so not so helpful at the time, until both

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Speaker 1: Rennie Gobain and Richard Krueger both viewed a very suggestive

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Speaker 1: photo lineup, and the suggestion into both of these witnesses

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Speaker 1: was to pick Tamagin Kenzu. And we'll get into how

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Speaker 1: it was suggestive in just a bit, But first, how

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Speaker 1: does this photo even find its way into this lineup?

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Speaker 1: Because early on in the investigation, before these eventual misidentifications

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Speaker 1: from Gobin and Krueger, temision wasn't even on Port Huron

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Speaker 1: Police Department's radar. How did he even become a suspect

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Speaker 1: living over four hundred miles away in the Upper Peninsula.

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Speaker 2: Mister Kensu initially becomes a suspect because in talking to

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Speaker 2: the victim's girlfriend that they find out that he was

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Speaker 2: a former boyfriend of the victims then girlfriend, Crystal Merrill,

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Speaker 2: and she describes him as a curious person, let's say,

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Speaker 2: someone who's into martial arts, someone who she said, was,

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Speaker 2: you know, an aggressive type and was very jealous of

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Speaker 2: her and all of that stuff. So that gets police

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Speaker 2: really interested in mister Kensu. They started investigating him. They

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Speaker 2: find that he's living in Rock, Michigan near Escanaba in

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Speaker 2: the Upper Peninsula, which is a whole different world from

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Speaker 2: Port Huron, but they don't let that stop them. They

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Speaker 2: start trying to figure out how he could have come

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Speaker 2: down from Escanaba, committed the shooting and been back.

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Speaker 1: So they investigated Temigen's whereabouts to find a way to

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Speaker 1: nail him, not knowing that they were just going to

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Speaker 1: actually solidify his alibi. They found out that he was

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Speaker 1: on a date until I believe around two am with

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Speaker 1: a woman named Beth Styr, and his car had actually

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Speaker 1: broke down and he got help and then he went

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Speaker 1: home to Michelle Woodworth even later. Meanwhile, the shooting occurred

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Speaker 1: at nine am, over four hundred miles away. Temwichen was

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Speaker 1: then seen by folks all over town that very day,

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Speaker 1: including out a dojo in Escanaba around noon. Importantly, not

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Speaker 1: everyone at the dojo liked Temagen. He was a cocky

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Speaker 1: twenty seven year old guy. But despite any of that

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Speaker 1: and their own animosity stores him, they still corroborated his alibi.

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Speaker 2: The evidence, even at the time of the investigation, was

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Speaker 2: very clear that mister Kinsey was not at the scene

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Speaker 2: of the crime, that he was in fact, at least

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Speaker 2: four hundred miles away in Michigan's Upper Peninsula. At distance

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Speaker 2: it would have taken him I think something like seven

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Speaker 2: or eight hours to drive each way at the time.

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Speaker 1: So even the prosecution accepted that this round trip journey

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Speaker 1: in that timeframe was not possible by car. And we'll

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Speaker 1: talk later about how they came up with a preposterous

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Speaker 1: travel theory involving a private plane of which there is

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Speaker 1: no record, right, no aviation logs, nothing, just to make

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Speaker 1: to try to make his guilt plausible for a jury,

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Speaker 1: not that they ever proved it at all. I mean,

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Speaker 1: the only physical evidence, the fingerprint on the box of shells,

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Speaker 1: clearly excluded Temagen, whose alibi was as good as any

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Speaker 1: we've ever seen.

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Speaker 3: There's more of this two Jason. So remember there's no

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Speaker 3: Scott when Crystal and I are together. So there's no

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Speaker 3: reason to be jealous of this guy. I knew about

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Speaker 3: an RNL Hope, I knew about a Mike Van Dyke,

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Speaker 3: there was no Scott. Secondly, the Scott guy has done

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Speaker 3: nothing to me. Third I've moved far away, I've got

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Speaker 3: girlfriends up. Nor if I'm trying to get this record deal,

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Speaker 3: I'm living with Michelle in this duppy little farmhouse, trying

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Speaker 3: to live my singing dream. I'm not going back down

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Speaker 3: tom Ford confirmed that we never went back down there.

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Speaker 3: We never stalked Crystal or stalked Scott or anything. Again.

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Speaker 3: You know, a lot of the listeners right now are young,

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Speaker 3: and they're used to the present technology. There was no

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Speaker 3: Internet in my day. There were no cell phones in

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Speaker 3: my day. He was killed at college, skipping class on

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Speaker 3: a sub zero morning in poor here on How the

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Speaker 3: hell could I have known this guy was going to college.

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Speaker 3: There's just there's no way I could have done all

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Speaker 3: his detective work. You know, I was I was stone broke.

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Speaker 3: Michelle was on welfare. I was even more poor by

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Speaker 3: the time we were living up north. There's no way

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Speaker 3: for me to gather all this data about Scott.

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Speaker 1: Right, You'd have to have known where Scott Macklin was

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Speaker 1: going to be and when in order to pull this

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Speaker 1: off and make your return flight to the Upper Peninsula

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Speaker 1: to be seen by nude. It's not like you could

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Speaker 1: have found out information about his class schedule online. There

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Speaker 1: was no online at the time. So instead of seeing

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Speaker 1: the writing on the wall that you were not the

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Speaker 1: guy but rather run down some of the potentially embarrassing

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Speaker 1: leads involving the shady characters connected to the victim, who

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Speaker 1: was the son of a wealthy local politician. They made

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Speaker 1: you the fall guy Patsy for this murder, and in

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Speaker 1: order to do so, they went back to Rennie Gobain

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Speaker 1: and Richard Krueger with this super suggestive photo lineup. And

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Speaker 1: we'll share this photo lineup on our socials along with

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Speaker 1: what was then shown to you the judge and the

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Speaker 1: jury to deliberately misrepresent that the lineup was not suggestive,

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Speaker 1: we'll have it all linked in the bio.

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Speaker 2: They show Gobain and Krueger a photo lineup in which

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Speaker 2: they include mister Kinsu's photo, and what isn't disclosed to

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Speaker 2: the defense, the judge and the jury is there are

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Speaker 2: a number of ways in which they clue the witnesses

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Speaker 2: in that they want them to identify Kensu. Much later,

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Speaker 2: Herb Weltzer discovered the photos as they were shown to

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Speaker 2: the witnesses, and we found that there were a lot

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Speaker 2: of differences between all the photos on one side, and

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Speaker 2: mister Kensue was the only one who was looking in

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Speaker 2: the opposite direction in his profile view. He was the

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Speaker 2: only one wearing a placard of a different city. He

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Speaker 2: was the only one who had a striped background. His

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Speaker 2: photo was the newest and clearly stuck out from all

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Speaker 2: of the others. All of these elements that would have

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Speaker 2: biased the witnesses and identifying Kensu were just not known

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Speaker 2: at the time of trial.

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Speaker 1: And we spoke with Herb Welzer, who was a retired

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Speaker 1: detective lieutenant from the poischow On Police Department, and after

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Speaker 1: hearing local investigative reporter Bill Procter's coverage of this case,

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Speaker 1: he felt compelled to get involved.

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Speaker 4: My name is Herb Welser. I'm retired from the Poor

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Speaker 4: Earned Police Department and I was with the department for

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Speaker 4: thirty one years and then I retired as detective lieutenant.

427
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Speaker 4: I was there my final three years. I was in

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Speaker 4: charge of the detective Bureau. In two thousand and seven,

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Speaker 4: Bill Procter and myself, along with Fred Freeman's wife Amako,

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Speaker 4: were allowed into the Poor Armed Police Department. This is

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Speaker 4: after I retired. Lieutenant Jim Jones, who was a very

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Speaker 4: good man. He took over my position as detective lieutenant.

433
00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:06,560
Speaker 4: Jim invited us to come in and look at the evidence.

434
00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:09,000
Speaker 4: And one of the first things that we found is

435
00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:13,040
Speaker 4: the five original photographs that were shown to the witnesses.

436
00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:17,040
Speaker 4: There's like ten or eleven things that are different about

437
00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:21,320
Speaker 4: Fred Freeman's picture from the pleasant Rich Police Department compared

438
00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:23,840
Speaker 4: to the other four of the poor In Police Department.

439
00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:26,680
Speaker 4: And I thought to myself, the only way that they

440
00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:30,520
Speaker 4: could have ever got this admitted into court is probably

441
00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:34,400
Speaker 4: to crop everything out of the photograph other than the

442
00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:38,600
Speaker 4: facial view of the person. And when this case went

443
00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:42,840
Speaker 4: to trial, there was an Exhibit twenty six. It was

444
00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:46,720
Speaker 4: a poster board that showed the pictures that were shown

445
00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:50,879
Speaker 4: to the witnesses. For years and years, Fred Freeman and

446
00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:55,520
Speaker 4: his supporters kept filing Foyer requests for Exhibit twenty six

447
00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:58,399
Speaker 4: to see what it looked like, and they kept getting

448
00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:03,200
Speaker 4: responses is that this is no longer available. It's been destroyed.

449
00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:07,680
Speaker 4: So in two thousand and seven, Exhibit twenty six is

450
00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:11,320
Speaker 4: still and missing. So about two months later Jim called

451
00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:15,600
Speaker 4: me and he said, hereby I found the Exhibit twenty six,

452
00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:19,200
Speaker 4: and I was just so sad to see that they

453
00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:24,240
Speaker 4: cropped out everything out of those original five photographs other

454
00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:26,600
Speaker 4: than the facial view. And that's what they showed in

455
00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:30,760
Speaker 4: the courtroom, and it's in the testimony. Bob Cleland said

456
00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:33,800
Speaker 4: to the sergeant Sergeant John Bounce, he said, are these

457
00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:37,359
Speaker 4: the original photographs that you showed to the witnesses? And

458
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:39,000
Speaker 4: he testified yes they are.

459
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:42,440
Speaker 2: Well. At the time of trial, as far as the

460
00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:45,479
Speaker 2: judge and the jury knew, the witnesses picked mister Kensu

461
00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:48,560
Speaker 2: out of a fair lineup. We have these two witnesses

462
00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:52,240
Speaker 2: who identify Kensu through a very biased lineup, and really,

463
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:54,119
Speaker 2: you know, they didn't see the shooting.

464
00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:56,680
Speaker 1: Right, They hadn't seen the actual shooting, and Gobain got

465
00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:59,600
Speaker 1: a fleeting glimpse at best of someone driving away with

466
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:01,879
Speaker 1: their head down, and we're not even sure that that

467
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:06,000
Speaker 1: was the actual shooter. So the biased lineup let them

468
00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:10,040
Speaker 1: know who to pick. In fact, when shown live lineups later,

469
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:14,120
Speaker 1: only ready Gobin even remembered who to pick. Krueger picked

470
00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:17,280
Speaker 1: someone else entirely. Nonetheless, On November thirteenth, thinty eighty six,

471
00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:19,479
Speaker 1: just over a week after the murder, they arrested you

472
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:23,600
Speaker 1: to Mujin and searched your house. Found zero incriminating evidence,

473
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:27,960
Speaker 1: no guns, no ammo. Of course, they eventually used all

474
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:30,800
Speaker 1: of your martial arts weapons as evidence against you at trial,

475
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:33,280
Speaker 1: even though the cause of death had nothing to do

476
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:36,320
Speaker 1: with martial arts. So when they took you in, did

477
00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:39,159
Speaker 1: they try to coerce a confession as we often see.

478
00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:42,120
Speaker 3: I was never interviewed. I was never questioned. They literally

479
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:44,200
Speaker 3: arrested me and threw me into a cell, and I says,

480
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:46,399
Speaker 3: nonybody even going to talk to me. Well, what I

481
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,120
Speaker 3: was told was that road officers were like the whole

482
00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:50,760
Speaker 3: way down, he was saying he didn't do it. He

483
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,160
Speaker 3: was telling us where he was that day that twenty

484
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:55,520
Speaker 3: people saw him. He can prove he was completely innocent.

485
00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:58,000
Speaker 3: And I think they were terrified. Remember, they are decided

486
00:23:58,000 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 3: to make me the patsy. They decided to make me

487
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:02,960
Speaker 3: the They've been putting out lies to the press saying

488
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:05,200
Speaker 3: they had witnesses who saw the murder, the whole nine yards.

489
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:06,680
Speaker 3: It was all lies. Of course, they didn't have any

490
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:08,639
Speaker 3: of that. And then by then they had, you know,

491
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,800
Speaker 3: Ray Gobe already willing to set me up. They refused

492
00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:13,720
Speaker 3: to sit down interview because they had to record the

493
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 3: interview and there'd be a record and probably me talking

494
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,359
Speaker 3: about my alibi and how I was innocent. So they

495
00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:21,040
Speaker 3: went and told the prosecute he's been saying all the

496
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:22,880
Speaker 3: way down the car, he's innocent, he can prove it.

497
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:25,240
Speaker 3: And they put me back in the max section of

498
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:27,359
Speaker 3: the jail before they put me in the isolation area,

499
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:29,639
Speaker 3: and they refused to talk to me.

500
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:33,639
Speaker 1: So no police even bothered to interview you. And you

501
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:37,360
Speaker 1: were an indigen defendant, so you weren't going to make

502
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:39,800
Speaker 1: bail no matter what number they said it that you

503
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 1: had no money and you had this quota planet attorney,

504
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,840
Speaker 1: a former prosecutor named David Dean, who he later found

505
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:49,600
Speaker 1: out was not only get this a good friend and

506
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:53,360
Speaker 1: the attorney for the lead detective in this case, John Bounds,

507
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:57,320
Speaker 1: he was defending him in a criminal investigation for his

508
00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 1: potential involvement with drugs and ports. But then get this,

509
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:05,400
Speaker 1: David Dean was also compromised through his own drug addiction.

510
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 3: My lawyer was a former prosecutor from Saint Clair County.

511
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:11,400
Speaker 3: By eighty four, he was severely addicted to crack cocaine.

512
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 3: By eighty five, he had a cocaine conviction in Ohio

513
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:19,760
Speaker 3: and was on probation in Michigan overseen by my trial judge.

514
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:22,240
Speaker 3: He was under investigation by the drug Task Force in town,

515
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:25,760
Speaker 3: and he was undercover informant and he was doing drugs

516
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:28,960
Speaker 3: with the police. Now this is all a matter of records.

517
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:31,680
Speaker 3: He was eventually disbarred for lying to the bar about

518
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 3: his drug use and because he was observed going into

519
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 3: crackhouses on nineteen separate occasions. They knew all of this

520
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:39,879
Speaker 3: about this guy. This is the lawyer they gave me.

521
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:56,879
Speaker 1: The more I look into your case, it seems like

522
00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 1: the only reason why you're still in there is because

523
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:03,400
Speaker 1: the official misconduct. It's so rampant that there would seemingly

524
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:07,679
Speaker 1: be no end to the potential civil litigation if they

525
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,160
Speaker 1: freed you, as they should, and they've known this all along.

526
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,200
Speaker 1: I mean, I think if you waved your right to

527
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,199
Speaker 1: civil litigation, they might let you out tomorrow. That's just

528
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 1: my theory. I don't know, you know, while looking into

529
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:22,160
Speaker 1: your case, my research became more about investigating the state's

530
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,680
Speaker 1: wrongdoing than it ever was about what happened to Scott

531
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 1: and macklum. So let's get back to their wrongdoing. First,

532
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 1: they offered you plea deals, but you were already and

533
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 1: always adamant about your innocence, so they tried another route

534
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 1: to get you to submit to a play.

535
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 3: I was taking out a population early into my time

536
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 3: in the jail and place, and what was called L cell,

537
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 3: which is an isolation cell in the back of the

538
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 3: jail in a hallway. The cell was a freezing cold

539
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,119
Speaker 3: in the winter. They would open the security window in

540
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:50,880
Speaker 3: front of the cell, so it's like twenty thirty below outside.

541
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:52,520
Speaker 3: There was a blizzard at that time, and they would

542
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:54,920
Speaker 3: freeze me out of the cell. They turned the water

543
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:56,440
Speaker 3: off in the cell, so I literally had to drink

544
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 3: water out of a toilet. I wasn't enough a shower.

545
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:00,240
Speaker 3: I wasn't allowed to go to recreation, that was allowed

546
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:02,679
Speaker 3: to have any books. They took away my visits. I

547
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 3: wasn't allowed to be personal phone calls, and all my

548
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:07,920
Speaker 3: attorney calls were monitored, and you probably know that's illegal.

549
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 3: And we actually had the logs showing where they listened

550
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:12,440
Speaker 3: to my attorney calls and what was discussed a few

551
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:14,120
Speaker 3: times that I was allowed to talk to my attorney,

552
00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 3: who was, as you know, in on all this and

553
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:19,119
Speaker 3: a former prosecutor. So their plan to bring me was

554
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:20,920
Speaker 3: a part of the scheme they had going with my

555
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:24,360
Speaker 3: attorney where they would keep bringing me these deals, and

556
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:26,120
Speaker 3: of course I refuse.

557
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 1: This, so you're sticking to your innocence. And at this

558
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:32,200
Speaker 1: point all they had was Renny Gobain's dubious identification. Now

559
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:35,439
Speaker 1: remember Krueger didn't pick Tamagen out of the live lineup,

560
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,000
Speaker 1: just the suggestive photo lineup that they purposely misrepresented to you,

561
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 1: the judge and the jury. Considering your alibi, it appears

562
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:46,479
Speaker 1: that they thought they needed some other nonsense to bolster

563
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:48,439
Speaker 1: their case. What else did they do.

564
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 2: The one other piece that we haven't addressed so far

565
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:55,159
Speaker 2: is the jail house informant supposedly hearing Kensu confess to

566
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,000
Speaker 2: committing this crime, and then apparently in this confession can

567
00:27:58,080 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 2: Sue also told them, plus, I have this great out

568
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 2: that involves many witnesses from the Upper Peninsula. This is

569
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 2: clearly just either the informant, at his own initiative or

570
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 2: at the direction of someone has you know, tried to

571
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:12,399
Speaker 2: take out two birds with one stone. He confessed to me,

572
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 2: and he confessed to fabricating an alibi. The Joe house

573
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:18,639
Speaker 2: infemant at the time said he was doing this just

574
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 2: out of the goodness of his heart. Later on he

575
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:24,160
Speaker 2: would admit that he was doing it to obtain benefits

576
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,159
Speaker 2: in exchange. He admitted that in an affidavit. Later, he

577
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 2: recanted in a videotape interview with an investigative reporter in

578
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 2: the Detroit area, basically said he was just doing it

579
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 2: to benefit himself and as far as he knew, Kensu

580
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 2: hadn't done anything. Kens who certainly didn't confess to him.

581
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 2: That informant's name was Philip Joplin, who unfortunately has now

582
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 2: passed away. But he did as I said, fully recant

583
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 2: before he passed away.

584
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 3: Philip Choplin a long term time with about thirty selonies

585
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 3: and probably fifty mystic meters been out of prison. He

586
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 3: was also a past in foreman and he'd been stitching

587
00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 3: for years at the Drug Task Force into the police

588
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 3: and on his other criminal case is I'm never in

589
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:03,240
Speaker 3: to cell with the other prisoners, so I know something's

590
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 3: going on. This guy. He's asking about my case, and

591
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 3: he's asking a lot of confidential questions. So on my

592
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 3: guard the entire time. I tell my lawyer what's happening.

593
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 3: He's like, oh, I wouldn't even worry about it. I said, no, no,

594
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 3: something's going on. My lawyer knew. Philip Joplin was an

595
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 3: informantive and even been involved in some of his cases

596
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 3: when he was a prosecutor. That's how crooked they are. Well,

597
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 3: sure enough, here comes this long letter from Philip Joplin saying,

598
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 3: I confess to everything in the holding cell.

599
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:29,200
Speaker 1: And although it appears that your lawyer may have known

600
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 1: what was going on but said nothing, of course, any

601
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 1: benefit to Joplin was not made known to you or

602
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 1: the jury, right.

603
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 3: No, of course not no. And what we also didn't

604
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 3: know was a secret deal had already been made. Philip

605
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:44,720
Speaker 3: Joplin was facing what's called a habitual offender sentence or

606
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 3: life in Michigan. The secret deal involved him basically having

607
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 3: his charges dropped. The CEO was made with my judge.

608
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 3: There's handwritten letters saying strong recommendation from Judge Cordon. He

609
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 3: wants this done right away.

610
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 1: Judge Cordon, your trial judge, the same one overseeing your

611
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 1: lawyer's cocaine. You know, it's so weird that your lawyer

612
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,400
Speaker 1: never brought up what he knew about Philip Joplin to

613
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 1: you or the jury on cross examination. So let's get

614
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 1: to the trial. It's about six months after the arrest Tevijen.

615
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 1: You had endured this torture process in jail to get

616
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 1: you to submit to a deal, which you courageously resisted.

617
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 1: We've just talked about the nonsense testimony that they presented,

618
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 1: and you've got this literal joke of a public defender

619
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 1: who's aware of this informant Joplin from other cases from

620
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 1: when he was a prosecutor. It just gets worse and worse.

621
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 1: So Imron, please give us a run through of everything

622
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 1: else that happened a trial.

623
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 2: So we've already discussed most of the evidence that the

624
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 2: prosecution presents, which is, you know, these two witnesses, one

625
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 2: who says I saw guy loitering in the bushes identified

626
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 2: him as Kensu, another who said I saw a guy

627
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 2: driving away after the shooting and identified him as Kensue.

628
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:58,480
Speaker 2: Both got really fleeting looks at this person, and as

629
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 2: I said already, both had identified mister Kinsu out of

630
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 2: a very egregiously biased lineup, but the jury and judge.

631
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:04,960
Speaker 3: Were not told that.

632
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 2: And then the other evidence that the prosecution presents, and

633
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 2: the reason this trial is incredibly long, is they put

634
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 2: in a whole bunch of character testimony that absolutely is

635
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 2: inadmissible that courts later have agreed should have been inadmissible,

636
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 2: but Kensu's lawyer didn't object, And so the most egregious

637
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 2: is the testimony of his ex girlfriend, who describes a

638
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 2: lot of things that make Kensu seem like a bad guy,

639
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:32,320
Speaker 2: but have absolutely nothing to do with this case or

640
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 2: with him shooting anyone ever. So that's the definition of,

641
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 2: you know, unduly prejudicial evidence that our system endeavors to

642
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 2: keep out of the courtroom because jurors, being human beings,

643
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:45,720
Speaker 2: were taking the risk they'll convict someone because they don't

644
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 2: like him, as opposed to because there's evidence they committed

645
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 2: the crime. And in my mind, there's no doubt that

646
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 2: the jury convicted mister Kinsu because they didn't like him,

647
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 2: because there was all of this evidence brought in that

648
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 2: he was, you know, abusive to people in his life,

649
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 2: that he had committed largely petty of the past, and

650
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 2: this whole narrative was painted of him as a manipulative,

651
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 2: mind controlling person, which is obviously entirely irrelevant to whether

652
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:11,240
Speaker 2: he shot a guy in a parking lot. But this

653
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 2: whole narrative includes weapons being brought in that are supposedly

654
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 2: the kind of weapons that a ninja warrior would use

655
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 2: because they try to paint Kensu as a wanna be

656
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 2: ninja master who can control people and all of that stuff.

657
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:27,480
Speaker 2: So there's throwing stars and nunchucks and all of those

658
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:29,160
Speaker 2: are just kind of brought in and put on a

659
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 2: table at the trial. They have absolutely nothing to do

660
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 2: with a guy getting shot in a parking lot, right,

661
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 2: but it's a distraction, and it's kind of just painting

662
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 2: Kensu in the eyes of a jury as an outsider,

663
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 2: as someone you wouldn't like if you met. And you know,

664
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 2: unfortunately that ended up working because the actual evidence of

665
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 2: guilt was very, very tiny.

666
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 3: Robert Cleveland's entire story about this case was fabricated. It

667
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 3: wasn't based on any evidence or any witnesses, it wasn't

668
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 3: based in any experts or any forensics. He just made

669
00:32:57,560 --> 00:32:59,720
Speaker 3: it up. So when he made up the crazy story

670
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 3: about wanting to recruit Crystal into my ninja organization, the

671
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 3: media was actually beginning to mock him and say, this

672
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:09,320
Speaker 3: is stupid, this doesn't make any sense. Then he changed

673
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 3: it to jealous boyfriend, so now I'm a jealous boyfriend.

674
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:14,920
Speaker 3: You know, they didn't really use the word stalker as

675
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 3: much back then, and of course we know that wasn't

676
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:20,400
Speaker 3: true too, and Crystal never even implied that.

677
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 2: So, you know, that's the masterful, supposedly case that the

678
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 2: prosecution has built, which has very little weight and it's

679
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 2: largely filled in with completely prejudicial, irrelevant, inadmissible evidence. But

680
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 2: you know that's what the jury but ended up believing.

681
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 2: In response. You know, Kensu presented several witnesses, none of

682
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 2: whom were his friends and family. They were people that

683
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 2: were largely independent, people he associated with, you know, the

684
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 2: owner of a store or a guy he met at

685
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,479
Speaker 2: a kmart when his car broke down that day, and

686
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 2: so I think this alibi probably had a big impact.

687
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, with all of these independent witnesses, his alibi was formidable.

688
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 1: It was airtight. And this brings us to the ridiculous

689
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:00,120
Speaker 1: theory that they used to over.

690
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:03,479
Speaker 2: So on Rebuttal. The prosecution comes up with this theory

691
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 2: that theoretically he could have chartered a private plane, committed

692
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 2: the crime, you know, flown back and forth and no

693
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 2: one would know. There was never any record that any

694
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 2: such flight took place. There was no showing that mister Kinsu,

695
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 2: who at the time was indigen even had money to

696
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:19,240
Speaker 2: make this happen.

697
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, poor people always fly private, right, Yeah?

698
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,840
Speaker 1: Can you imagine this scenario in real life? He somehow

699
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:31,799
Speaker 1: finds the private jet department at his local airport in

700
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 1: the milanoare and then convinces this random pilot who's just

701
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:37,759
Speaker 1: hanging out to not make any record of the flight.

702
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 1: Of course, it's all made plausible by his being a

703
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:45,919
Speaker 1: ninja who's capable of mind control. But let's just say

704
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 1: that he's able to accomplish all of that, which is

705
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 1: obviously batshit insane, he's still got to pay for it.

706
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:54,239
Speaker 1: Up until this point, he would have had to have

707
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:57,400
Speaker 1: been hiding his vast wealth while drowning in debt and

708
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,320
Speaker 1: living in poverty. But even if he was secretly well healthy,

709
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:02,480
Speaker 1: he must have blown it all on the private jet

710
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:04,840
Speaker 1: because he certainly wasn't spending it on his defense attorney.

711
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:07,919
Speaker 1: So when we spoke to herb Welser, he pointed out

712
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 1: some things about this charter plane theory and the pilot

713
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:14,040
Speaker 1: Bob Evans, who testified a trial to boast of this theory,

714
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,839
Speaker 1: and somehow it gets even worse from here.

715
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:22,440
Speaker 4: I met with the detective that was under the searge

716
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 4: and detected Harry Hudson, and I talked to Harry about

717
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,239
Speaker 4: three hours one night about this case. When we got

718
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:31,600
Speaker 4: to the airplane theory, Harry said to me, he says, well, herb,

719
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 4: you know who the airplane pilot was, don't you. That

720
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:40,320
Speaker 4: is Bob Cleveland's personal airplane pilot. Bob Cleveland was running

721
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 4: for attorney general here in the state of Michigan, and

722
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:47,240
Speaker 4: in fact had just lost the election the day before

723
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:51,200
Speaker 4: this murder. He lost the election on Tuesday. On Wednesday

724
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:55,759
Speaker 4: morning was the murder, But he said, Bob Evans is

725
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:58,920
Speaker 4: the pilot who would take Bob Cleveland to his speaking

726
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 4: engagements here in the state of Michigan while he was

727
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:05,719
Speaker 4: running for attorney general. And of course it didn't come

728
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:06,719
Speaker 4: out in the testimony.

729
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 2: You know, even having spoken about this case hundreds of times,

730
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:16,840
Speaker 2: I am still shocked at how how nonsensical all of

731
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:17,279
Speaker 2: this is.

732
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:20,279
Speaker 1: So despite the fact that all the physical evidence was

733
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,240
Speaker 1: exculpatory and that your alibi was rock solid, they stacked

734
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:26,719
Speaker 1: up this character assassination campaign that should have been inadmissible

735
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:30,359
Speaker 1: and invented this ridiculous charter playing theory to support the

736
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:35,239
Speaker 1: one tiny bit of evidence that mattered. The misidentification from

737
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:38,799
Speaker 1: Rennie Gobain, who had caught this fleeting glimpse or said

738
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:40,920
Speaker 1: he did, of an alleged assailant with his head tilted

739
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:43,400
Speaker 1: downward in a car that we're not even sure was

740
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 1: the shooters. And then when presented with this unduly suggestive

741
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:50,160
Speaker 1: photo lineup, he chose your picture and said that you

742
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:54,279
Speaker 1: look like the driver of that car. Then the prosecution

743
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:59,239
Speaker 1: purposely misrepresented to you, the judge and the jury just

744
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:03,799
Speaker 1: how suggested that lineup was. So Gobain's testimony, then the

745
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:07,719
Speaker 1: nonsense testimony, along with a bunch of irrelevant bullshit like

746
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:11,800
Speaker 1: the testimony from Crystal Merrill, your martial arts weapons collection,

747
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 1: the mystery around you being some sort of a ninja,

748
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 1: the fact that you had children by two different women

749
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:21,279
Speaker 1: and enjoyed an open relationship with Michelle Woodworth. Seeing all

750
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 1: of that, it seems like the jury was more convinced

751
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:25,960
Speaker 1: that they just didn't like you, rather than that you

752
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:28,839
Speaker 1: had committed this crime. So when the jury came back

753
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:32,760
Speaker 1: in take us back to that moment, that horrible, horrible

754
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:36,279
Speaker 1: moment when they convicted and sentenced you to life without parole.

755
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:39,360
Speaker 3: Jaw hit the floor. I couldn't believe it. I literally

756
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:41,360
Speaker 3: almost fell over and I just I turned him so

757
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:43,160
Speaker 3: I didn't do this. And I turned to judge and

758
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 3: said that there's no way you can believe that I

759
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:46,399
Speaker 3: did this, your honor. I said it my sentence too,

760
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 3: There's no one you can believe that I committed this crime.

761
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 3: You watched this whole trial. There was no evidence I

762
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 3: had anything to do with this. I'd never even met

763
00:37:53,120 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 3: this guy. MBoC policy required you had to at least

764
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:14,000
Speaker 3: twenty seven years old to go to state prison Southern Michigan.

765
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:17,400
Speaker 3: I was twenty three. In violation that policy. Robert Cleland

766
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 3: had made demands on the MDOC that they placed me

767
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 3: in Jackson. Jackson, at that time was the world's largest

768
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 3: wall prison, and it was also one of the most violent.

769
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:27,239
Speaker 3: Two corrections officers were killed the year that I came down,

770
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:29,719
Speaker 3: Josephine McCallum and Jack Bud. Jack Budd was killed in

771
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:32,000
Speaker 3: front of me, by the way, in December twenty seventh,

772
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 3: I believe it was in nineteen eighty seven. It was

773
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 3: insanely violent. I watched a man killed over twenty five

774
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:39,840
Speaker 3: cent what we call a shot of coffee, a little

775
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:42,799
Speaker 3: tablespoon of coffee. I mean, it was crazy violent, and

776
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 3: I was the ninja killer, and I had been in

777
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:47,239
Speaker 3: the press, so everybody had to try me. And so

778
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 3: when I got to Jackson, I knew my life was

779
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 3: in danger, and I was attacked while I was still

780
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 3: on what's called quarantine. I was able to defend myself, fortunately,

781
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 3: and after that I began it just trained furiously.

782
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:58,160
Speaker 1: I thought, I'm going to die in this place, right,

783
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:00,520
Speaker 1: And you also learned a law even when a couple

784
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:04,120
Speaker 1: of times pro se, which happens basically almost never.

785
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:06,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, I beat the NBALLC like thirty forty times now,

786
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 3: and I just settled some more cases. I settled to

787
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:12,760
Speaker 3: some diet cases and abuses for our digital content provider

788
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 3: and some other things. So, but I do this for

789
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 3: other prisoners.

790
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:15,319
Speaker 4: You know.

791
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:16,640
Speaker 3: I don't do this to get rich. I do this

792
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:18,920
Speaker 3: to help people. And what I do with my rule

793
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:20,600
Speaker 3: has always been I try to be the person for

794
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 3: them that I needed for me when I was a

795
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:24,439
Speaker 3: young guy that was a mess and didn't have any help.

796
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 1: And while you help many others, it all started with

797
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:29,480
Speaker 1: learning how to help yourself and your own legal filings.

798
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:31,440
Speaker 1: And I want to turn to Amron here. Now we know,

799
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:34,840
Speaker 1: even with evidence of all of this misconduct, exculpatory evidence,

800
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:38,719
Speaker 1: et cetera. Post conviction litigation is usually a long and

801
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 1: winding road to nowhere to no relief. In start contrast

802
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 1: to how easy it is to get wrongfully convicted, and

803
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:48,560
Speaker 1: even among a galaxy of other cases, tellisions really stands out.

804
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:52,960
Speaker 1: Here we are thirty five years later. There are so

805
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:56,920
Speaker 1: many twists and turns, including a near turnaround moment in

806
00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 1: twenty ten, but even before that, there were times when

807
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:03,440
Speaker 1: what needs to happen in this case was made painfully

808
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:05,960
Speaker 1: obvious to any objective observer.

809
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 2: There are, you know, probably five or six moments when

810
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:12,880
Speaker 2: this conviction could have been overturned because enough had been

811
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 2: shown to be wrong with it, and unfortunately all of

812
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:19,240
Speaker 2: those five or six opportunities were lost. So it starts

813
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 2: on the direct appeal where his direct appeal attorney is

814
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:25,799
Speaker 2: trying to obtain the original photos because he wants to

815
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:28,960
Speaker 2: be able to show that these witnesses identified Kinsu through

816
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:32,319
Speaker 2: a bias lineup that essentially police framed Kinsu and he's

817
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:35,920
Speaker 2: not given the original photos, and then ultimately, if the

818
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 2: transcript is correct, they essentially hand him some other photos

819
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:41,719
Speaker 2: from the case and say these are the ones, and

820
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:43,400
Speaker 2: we know they're not the ones because they had different

821
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:48,160
Speaker 2: people in them, so that direct appeal is unfortunately a failure. Then,

822
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:51,720
Speaker 2: in the mid nineties is when an investigative reporter starts

823
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:54,560
Speaker 2: digging into this stuff, a guy named Bill Procter, and

824
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:57,920
Speaker 2: he interviews jurors, and he interviews some of the alibi witnesses,

825
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:03,040
Speaker 2: and most significantly gets that videotaped recantation from the jailhouse informant,

826
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 2: who by that time is admitting not only was he

827
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 2: given incentives to testify against Kensu and those were not disclosed,

828
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:12,440
Speaker 2: but also as admitting that it was entirely a fabrication.

829
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 2: So that's another moment where you know, based on that,

830
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 2: you could think this conviction should be reversed, but it wasn't.

831
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 2: Then you pointed out, you know, slowly but surely, we

832
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:23,759
Speaker 2: get to twenty ten, and a couple of important things

833
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:27,800
Speaker 2: happened there. First, Kensu, working on his own without an attorney,

834
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:31,400
Speaker 2: files a federal habeas corpus petition, and it's an absolutely

835
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:34,239
Speaker 2: massive filing because you know, as far as he realizes,

836
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 2: he just wants to put everything he has into it.

837
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:38,759
Speaker 2: A lawyer might say, hey, let's edit this down. Let's

838
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:41,320
Speaker 2: only keep the most salient stuff. But you know, for Kensu,

839
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:43,680
Speaker 2: his life is on the line, and he puts it together,

840
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:47,840
Speaker 2: this massive filing. And interestingly, that is right around the

841
00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:50,840
Speaker 2: time when our Innocence Clinic at Michigan Law School opened

842
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:53,480
Speaker 2: and we had started to look at this case. And

843
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:55,560
Speaker 2: we were looking at this case because even by then

844
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:58,000
Speaker 2: Kensu had a lot of local supporters that were urging

845
00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:00,439
Speaker 2: us to look at this case. We read the trial

846
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 2: transcripts and found that this was an absolutely silly conviction,

847
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:07,279
Speaker 2: that he clearly hadn't committed this crime. So we signed on.

848
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:09,720
Speaker 2: And you know, at the time, I was a law student,

849
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:12,400
Speaker 2: so I wasn't representing Kensu, but the professors who were

850
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:14,799
Speaker 2: leading their clinic at the time signed on to be

851
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:18,200
Speaker 2: Kensu's attorneys in federal district court. You know, they intended

852
00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:22,200
Speaker 2: to file amended habeas petition where they could you know,

853
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 2: winnow the claims to what they believed was the most

854
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:28,520
Speaker 2: important But actually by then the judge had, as it

855
00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:31,320
Speaker 2: turned out, already been reviewing Kensu's federal habeas and she

856
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:34,680
Speaker 2: ended up granting it pretty quickly after we had signed on,

857
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:37,720
Speaker 2: so clearly she hadn't really even read any new filings

858
00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:40,280
Speaker 2: we made. She granted based on what Kensu had filed.

859
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:43,400
Speaker 1: Wait, so a federal judge looked into the petition that

860
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:48,680
Speaker 1: Temagen filed pro say and it was granted. That's incredible.

861
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:51,239
Speaker 1: So then what happened? Why did this not lead to

862
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:51,840
Speaker 1: his release?

863
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:55,120
Speaker 2: Unfortunately, the law is very very restrictive on this stuff,

864
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:57,040
Speaker 2: and so the state has a right to appeal that

865
00:42:57,080 --> 00:42:59,800
Speaker 2: to our intermediate appellate court, the Sixth Circuit Court of

866
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 2: and they unfortunately reversed and upheld the conviction again. They

867
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:07,239
Speaker 2: said all of this should have been brought before that

868
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:09,799
Speaker 2: they couldn't consider the merits of this evidence because it

869
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:12,560
Speaker 2: should have been presented earlier. So you know, Unfortunately, after

870
00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:15,279
Speaker 2: that loss, a couple of other things happened. In twenty ten,

871
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:18,400
Speaker 2: Kensu sought clemency from the governor for the first time.

872
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:22,720
Speaker 2: He succeeded in getting a hearing. Unfortunately, clemency was denied

873
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:25,320
Speaker 2: and there were a lot of underhanded tactics I feel

874
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:27,719
Speaker 2: that we used during that time again to just get

875
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:31,480
Speaker 2: at character assassination instead of focusing on the evidence. Clemency

876
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:33,800
Speaker 2: was denied at that time. But herb Weltzer had discovered

877
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:36,279
Speaker 2: this uncrop photo lineup that showed for the first time

878
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:39,280
Speaker 2: that the witnesses had been biased by the police into

879
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:42,520
Speaker 2: selecting mister Kensu. So we filed a new state court

880
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:44,759
Speaker 2: filing based on that. We got a hearing on it

881
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:48,839
Speaker 2: around twenty thirteen, fourteen, But unfortunately the writings on the wall,

882
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 2: every time you go to Saint Clair County and talk

883
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:53,160
Speaker 2: about the Kensu caset, no one's really going to give

884
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:55,120
Speaker 2: you the time of day. So we had a hearing.

885
00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:58,120
Speaker 2: It was a very very contentious hearing, and the judge

886
00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:01,600
Speaker 2: ended up ruling against us. The appeals on that filed

887
00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:05,400
Speaker 2: a federal habeas petition. Unfortunately that was denied as well.

888
00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:08,879
Speaker 2: The interesting thing here, of course, one of many interesting things,

889
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:12,719
Speaker 2: is that the prosecutor who had tried Kensu's case subsequently

890
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:15,560
Speaker 2: was appointed a federal judge, and now it's still a

891
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:19,160
Speaker 2: federal judge in Detroit, that's Robert Cleland. That's created kind

892
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:22,080
Speaker 2: of a whole new level of conflict in this case.

893
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:25,440
Speaker 2: When we filed his second federal habeas petition, all of

894
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:27,759
Speaker 2: the judges in the Eastern District of Michigan, which is

895
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:31,040
Speaker 2: the Federal court in Detroit, all of the judges recused themselves,

896
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:35,000
Speaker 2: and Kensu's case was actually decided by a senior status

897
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 2: semi retired judge in Kentucky, which is an interesting situation

898
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:40,840
Speaker 2: and not one I've come across before.

899
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:43,600
Speaker 1: Unfortunately, that was denied as well, and so since he

900
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:46,680
Speaker 1: has filed for clemency a few more times with subsequent

901
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:50,200
Speaker 1: Michigan governors. Now one would think that after a federal

902
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 1: judge agreed with his actual innocence claim and an appellate

903
00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 1: court denied him only on procedural grounds, maybe that should

904
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:03,480
Speaker 1: have held some weight in the governor's mansion. But he's

905
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:07,279
Speaker 1: been denied three times there as well. And then in

906
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:10,080
Speaker 1: twenty twenty, Dana Nessel ran for Attorney General, and all

907
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:13,400
Speaker 1: during that summer she was riding the wave of righteous

908
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:16,280
Speaker 1: indignation about the state of law enforcement and the criminal

909
00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 1: legal system in this country. She made promises, including that

910
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:22,719
Speaker 1: they'd start a conviction integrity unit. This, of course, is

911
00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 1: the kind of thing that can go around the procedural

912
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:29,359
Speaker 1: bars that restrict relief throughout the court system. Right But unfortunately,

913
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:33,080
Speaker 1: after reviewing this case, get this, they didn't disagree that

914
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:37,120
Speaker 1: he was innocent, but rather they changed the rules after

915
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 1: he filed and came up with some self imposed restriction

916
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:43,640
Speaker 1: about a need for new evidence, just like he'd needed

917
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:48,799
Speaker 1: an appellate court. So now this is the Attorney General's CiU,

918
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:53,279
Speaker 1: not the Wayne County CiU, which is widely regarded as

919
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:57,400
Speaker 1: one of the finest and most effective in the country.

920
00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:02,839
Speaker 1: But this age in a Nessl's CiU has only successfully

921
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:06,719
Speaker 1: granted relief in three or four cases, and they came

922
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:10,200
Speaker 1: up with a reason to deny Temagit as well, which

923
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:14,640
Speaker 1: was to require new evidence. So since Temigen was already

924
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:18,240
Speaker 1: so thorough in its federal habeas petition, there's no currently

925
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:22,719
Speaker 1: new evidence to present, and I'm just sitting here struggling

926
00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:25,959
Speaker 1: to figure out why they did this. In addition, since

927
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:29,400
Speaker 1: closing their investigation into Temigen's case, they won't even release

928
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:32,200
Speaker 1: the summary report as they've done in the past. So

929
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:34,959
Speaker 1: I can only guess, as I did earlier, that there's

930
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:40,480
Speaker 1: just such vast official misconduct in this case that admitting

931
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:43,560
Speaker 1: to the wrongdoing would be very expensive, not to mention,

932
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:48,320
Speaker 1: probably highly embarrassing for some people in positions of real power.

933
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:53,480
Speaker 1: So this Conviction Integrity Unit is now totally ignoring Temigen's

934
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:56,920
Speaker 1: innocence and doing exactly what everyone else did, of course,

935
00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:01,680
Speaker 1: except for that one federal judge, Judge Hood, who alone

936
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:05,200
Speaker 1: had the courage to recognize Temagin's innocence.

937
00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:07,719
Speaker 2: So that's where we're at now, you know, believing the

938
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:10,480
Speaker 2: Kenshu's one innocent. We're not going to give up on

939
00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:14,239
Speaker 2: the case, but with each subsequent loss there are fewer

940
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:17,960
Speaker 2: and fewer options that are still on the table. Fortunately,

941
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:20,239
Speaker 2: I think we still do have a couple of pathways

942
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:22,400
Speaker 2: left to us, thanks to the work of Herb Weltzer,

943
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:24,440
Speaker 2: who has done all this amazing work for him. But

944
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 2: the craziest part of this case is he's a person

945
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:28,919
Speaker 2: who should never have been convicted a trial, and yet

946
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:31,359
Speaker 2: here we are, now thirty five years later, always trying

947
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:34,319
Speaker 2: to think of more and new evidence of innocence, when

948
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:36,799
Speaker 2: really all the evidence of innocence has existed in this

949
00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:37,720
Speaker 2: case from the beginning.

950
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:40,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's not like this CiU has different evidence

951
00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:43,319
Speaker 1: from what you've all heard here today. They've got it.

952
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:48,320
Speaker 1: So I hope that with an election looming they would

953
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:49,680
Speaker 1: take bold action.

954
00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:52,759
Speaker 3: That's what he's saying. You'd start kicking ass. Now you

955
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:55,120
Speaker 3: can go out there and say, look what I just did.

956
00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:57,719
Speaker 1: I mean, this is what they campaigned on and were

957
00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:00,640
Speaker 1: elected to do. And I understand that you phone bank

958
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:04,359
Speaker 1: for these people, your new wife, Paula, since Amako, your

959
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:07,400
Speaker 1: previous wife had passed. Paula was literally out there knocking

960
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:12,360
Speaker 1: on doors. And then their inaction here is It's just

961
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:15,040
Speaker 1: it's made extra painful by that fact.

962
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:18,080
Speaker 3: Right, And they made so many promises, and you know,

963
00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:20,040
Speaker 3: Paula has been to so many rallies and listening to

964
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:22,600
Speaker 3: so many families who were weighing on that unit to

965
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:25,359
Speaker 3: do something. And they brought any amazing people like Robin

966
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:29,279
Speaker 3: Frankel and Patricia lil and Louring Montgomery and valorying him

967
00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:32,239
Speaker 3: in the best, the best in this state, great investigators,

968
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:35,600
Speaker 3: great attorneys, and nothing's coming out. And it's not because

969
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:38,400
Speaker 3: the investigtors and the attorneys. It's because something happened. I

970
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:40,719
Speaker 3: don't know if people scared her. I don't know if

971
00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:42,000
Speaker 3: they told her they thought it was going to hurt

972
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:43,280
Speaker 3: her reelection chances.

973
00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:47,040
Speaker 1: How in the world can setting the innocent free be

974
00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:49,960
Speaker 1: seen as anything other than a moral imperative.

975
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:52,840
Speaker 3: Everyone agreed the innocent shouldn't be in prison. This is

976
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:54,440
Speaker 3: a pretty bipartison issue.

977
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:56,880
Speaker 1: So I'm sure our listeners would like to do whatever

978
00:48:56,920 --> 00:48:59,320
Speaker 1: they can to write this wrong. If you're a Michigan,

979
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:03,120
Speaker 1: I thought imagine that you're incredibly frustrated by everything you've

980
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:06,440
Speaker 1: heard on this podcast today, all this evidence. So please,

981
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:09,160
Speaker 1: we need all of you to sign a petition that's

982
00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:12,319
Speaker 1: linked in the bio, and hopefully your support can help

983
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:14,480
Speaker 1: move this one over the line as it's done in

984
00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:16,919
Speaker 1: other cases. And so many people have already joined this fight,

985
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:21,920
Speaker 1: including US Representatives Andy Levin and Rashida Dlaib, as well

986
00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:25,280
Speaker 1: as State Senator Stephanie Chang, who issued a joint statement

987
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:28,680
Speaker 1: after Temigen's denial in the CiU. I'm going to quote

988
00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:32,560
Speaker 1: from that statement. They said, we were deeply disappointed. We

989
00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:34,719
Speaker 1: have great respect for the Attorney General and the other

990
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:38,640
Speaker 1: attorneys involved in this case. However, the standard used by

991
00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:41,680
Speaker 1: the CiU in its review of the Kenzu case predetermined

992
00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:45,640
Speaker 1: the outcome to us, the wrong outcome. Our point of

993
00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:48,160
Speaker 1: view is not based on technical or procedural flaws in

994
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:50,759
Speaker 1: the case or discovery of an alibi witness who has

995
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:53,920
Speaker 1: never presented a trial. It's based on the fact that

996
00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:57,040
Speaker 1: Kenzu could not have committed and did not in fact commit,

997
00:49:57,080 --> 00:49:59,480
Speaker 1: the crime for which the state is taking away the

998
00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:03,319
Speaker 1: entire rest of his life now thirty five years on,

999
00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:07,640
Speaker 1: and the continued resistance to this fact of actual innocence

1000
00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:11,759
Speaker 1: by current and former law enforcement officials does nothing to

1001
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:16,680
Speaker 1: change the fact itself. Wow. So if you're as outraged

1002
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:19,960
Speaker 1: as we all are, we'll have links to action steps

1003
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:22,719
Speaker 1: in the bio, so please check those out and get

1004
00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:26,279
Speaker 1: involved Separately, if anyone has new information about this case,

1005
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:29,839
Speaker 1: Carl Herbwelzer will be posting his contact info as well.

1006
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:33,439
Speaker 1: And now we turn to closing arguments, where I thank

1007
00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:35,640
Speaker 1: both of you for joining us to share your story,

1008
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:39,400
Speaker 1: and then I'll turn my microphone off, kick back in

1009
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:41,840
Speaker 1: my chair and listen to whatever else you feel is

1010
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:44,239
Speaker 1: left to be said. We'll kick it off with them,

1011
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:47,719
Speaker 1: Ron and Temagen, please take us off into the sunset.

1012
00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:50,319
Speaker 2: This is one of those cases that really leaves you

1013
00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:52,640
Speaker 2: scratching your head because all of the evidence that he

1014
00:50:52,680 --> 00:50:55,960
Speaker 2: didn't commit this crime has existed from the beginning, and

1015
00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:58,680
Speaker 2: so now it's just a matter of kind of acknowledging

1016
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:01,320
Speaker 2: that evidence and coming to grips with it, as opposed

1017
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:05,120
Speaker 2: to looking for technicalities to skirt around the evidence, which

1018
00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:07,920
Speaker 2: is unfortunately what the past. You know, thirty years of

1019
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:10,560
Speaker 2: appeals have been everyone looking for an excuse not to

1020
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:14,600
Speaker 2: consider the actual evidence of the case. Whether that excuse

1021
00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:17,560
Speaker 2: is you know, initially he consues a manipulative person, or

1022
00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:20,120
Speaker 2: he's a bad guy to women in his life, or

1023
00:51:20,120 --> 00:51:22,359
Speaker 2: that he you know, he's the type of person who

1024
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:24,359
Speaker 2: would do this, and then later it turns into, oh,

1025
00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:26,520
Speaker 2: you have even more evidence of innocence, but you should

1026
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:28,480
Speaker 2: have presented it earlier. I think we have to look

1027
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:30,440
Speaker 2: past all of this stuff. This is simply a guy

1028
00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:32,239
Speaker 2: who should never have been convicted. You know, if he

1029
00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:34,200
Speaker 2: was to be let out tomorrow, that would be thirty

1030
00:51:34,200 --> 00:51:36,680
Speaker 2: five years too late. There's really not a way to

1031
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:40,160
Speaker 2: give him back what's happened. The only thing is that

1032
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:42,719
Speaker 2: there should be an urgency to right this wrong. And

1033
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:44,680
Speaker 2: I know that's the only thing he's ever wanted. So

1034
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:46,920
Speaker 2: hopefully we're approaching a time though, where we can finally

1035
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:48,920
Speaker 2: come to grips with the reality of his innocence.

1036
00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:52,319
Speaker 3: I want everybody to understand it. We say this all

1037
00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:54,279
Speaker 3: the time and it becomes cliche, but you know, your

1038
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:56,480
Speaker 3: voice really does matter. You know, we had all these

1039
00:51:56,520 --> 00:51:58,760
Speaker 3: protests going on a little while ago, and you know savvy,

1040
00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:03,080
Speaker 3: some riots. Change was starting. Because of those protests. They

1041
00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:05,719
Speaker 3: create this great bill as George Floyd Bill, And you

1042
00:52:05,719 --> 00:52:08,800
Speaker 3: know what, all the protesting stopped, all the noise making stop,

1043
00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:11,200
Speaker 3: the media coverage stopped, and the bill's going sit in limbo.

1044
00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:15,560
Speaker 3: It's already done. They could pass that bill right now,

1045
00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:19,280
Speaker 3: that Policing Act. It's a great act. It's not unfair,

1046
00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:22,720
Speaker 3: and it creates necessary protections. But we stopped making noise.

1047
00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:25,560
Speaker 3: And when we stop making noise, they don't have to

1048
00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 3: pay attention to us anymore, or only a few of

1049
00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:30,239
Speaker 3: us are just crickets chirping in a field at night.

1050
00:52:30,640 --> 00:52:32,880
Speaker 3: It's pleasant, it's not too irritating, and it can be

1051
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:35,600
Speaker 3: easily ignored and enjoy whatever you want to do. And

1052
00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:37,239
Speaker 3: I know people have their own lives, and they have

1053
00:52:37,360 --> 00:52:39,920
Speaker 3: their jobs, and they have their kids and all their responsibilities.

1054
00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:43,920
Speaker 3: But nothing is going to change until we demand change.

1055
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:46,680
Speaker 3: Nothing's gonna get me better until we stop complaining about it.

1056
00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:49,080
Speaker 3: Some people want things to be better, but they feel like,

1057
00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:51,000
Speaker 3: you know, it's like my quote, it just doesn't matter.

1058
00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:53,520
Speaker 3: It's not going to change anything. It does matter, it

1059
00:52:53,680 --> 00:52:55,920
Speaker 3: is going to change something. You don't have to be

1060
00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:57,439
Speaker 3: famous and don't have to be wealthy, and you don't

1061
00:52:57,440 --> 00:52:59,560
Speaker 3: have to be connected. You just have to want things

1062
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:03,520
Speaker 3: to get Call your senators, call your congressman. If you're

1063
00:53:03,560 --> 00:53:05,520
Speaker 3: out there and you hear the story of this case,

1064
00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:07,520
Speaker 3: just for example, and it is one of the worst

1065
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:10,120
Speaker 3: cases ever. So it's a great example. But I'm no

1066
00:53:10,239 --> 00:53:12,680
Speaker 3: better and no more important than anybody else who's suffering

1067
00:53:12,719 --> 00:53:15,600
Speaker 3: in here. But if this story moves you at all,

1068
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:17,279
Speaker 3: if you if you say, I don't ever want to

1069
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:21,080
Speaker 3: see this happen to anybody ever again, not just mister Kensu, nobody,

1070
00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:24,880
Speaker 3: call our governor, call our attorney general and demand that

1071
00:53:24,960 --> 00:53:28,040
Speaker 3: they fix this, and then demand legislation changes. If you

1072
00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:29,759
Speaker 3: make a deal with an informant, you have to put

1073
00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:31,440
Speaker 3: in writing that there was a deal, and you have

1074
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Speaker 3: to disclose everything because there's no loss, and they have

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Speaker 3: to disclose anything. They have the you know, the Brady

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Speaker 3: rule and disclosure. But it's so shape. Prosecutors have absolutely immunity.

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Speaker 3: Why they'll tell you they can't do their jobs without immunity.

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Speaker 3: That's insane. What if a doctor said, I can't do

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Speaker 3: any surgery on you unless you wave all of your rights.

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00:53:48,640 --> 00:53:50,640
Speaker 3: I can leave instruments behind you and cut the wrong

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Speaker 3: leg off. You're cool with that, but we do this

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Speaker 3: with prosecutors and judges. They don't need immunity unless they're

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Speaker 3: doing something wrong.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to

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Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff Cliburn, and Kevin Wartis,

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00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:14,920
Speaker 1: with research by Lyla Robinson. The music in this production

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Speaker 1: was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.

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Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction,

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00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:26,040
Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast, and on Twitter at

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00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:29,200
Speaker 1: wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On

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00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:32,239
Speaker 1: all three platforms, you can also follow me on both

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00:54:32,320 --> 00:54:36,560
Speaker 1: TikTok and Instagram at It's Jason flam Raeful Conviction is

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00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:39,279
Speaker 1: the production of Lava for Good podcast and association with

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Speaker 1: Signal Company Number one.